24/01/2017 Daily Politics


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24/01/2017

Jo Coburn is joined by former Culture, Media and Sport secretary John Whittingdale. They look at the Supreme Court's decision on article 50.


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Hello and welcome to the Daily Politics.

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Today, by a majority of eight to three, the Supreme Court rules that

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the Government cannot trigger Article 50 without an Act of

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A government defeat in the Supreme Court as the judges

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confirm that only parliament can approve the triggering of Article

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50 which begins the process of our withdrawal from the EU -

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but they rule that there's no role for the devolved

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The Government accepts the Supreme Court's judgement.

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MPs and peers will get a vote - but what will the legislation look

:01:13.:01:15.

like and what obstacles might Labour and other opposition

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Strikes have paralysed the Southern Rail network

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for months, preventing hundreds of thousands of commuters

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Should unions and workers be allowed to inflict such disruption

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And we're leaving the EU - so when will the bonfire

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of regulations that are supposed to cost the British economy

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All that in the next hour, and with us for almost the whole

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of the programme today is the former Culture Secretary and Leave

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So - the Government has failed to get its way in the Supreme Court,

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and MPs and peers will get a vote before Article 50 is triggered,

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which begins the process of Britain's exit from the EU.

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The judges ruled by a majority of eight to three

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that the Government cannot begin the process for the UK's exit

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from the European Union without the authorisation of Parliament.

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Lord Neuberger, president of the Supreme Court,

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said a further Act of Parliament was required as the EU

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Referendum Act did not specify what would happen after the vote.

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Another issue the 11 justices had to consider

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was whether the devolved assemblies also need to be consulted.

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But they ruled that ministers did not need the consent

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of the legislatures in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland

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The Government is now expected to swiftly publish legislation

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asking Parliament to invoke Article 50.

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Any bill is expected to be very short in order to leave as little

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Labour Leader Jeremy Corbyn has said the party

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will not frustrate the invoking of Article 50, but is demanding

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that the Government is accountable to Parliament throughout the Brexit

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negotiations - with a "meaningful vote" at the end.

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Alex Salmond, the Scottish National Party's

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International Affairs spokesperson, has said the SNP will table 50

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"serious and substantive" amendments, including a call

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for the Government to publish a White Paper before

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But how big a problem will this pose to

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The Prime Minister had pledged to trigger Article 50

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But MPs did overwhelmingly back a motion before

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Christmas supporting the Government's Brexit timetable -

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suggesting there may be a clear majority in the House of Commons

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Here's how the President of the Supreme Court, Lord Neuberger,

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The referendum is of great political significance.

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But the Act of Parliament which established it did not say

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So any change in the law to give effect to the referendum must be

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made in the only way permitted, by the UK constitution.

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To proceed otherwise would be a breach of settled

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constitutional principles, stretching back many centuries.

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On the devolution issues, the court unanimously rules that UK

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ministers are not legally compelled to consultant the devolved

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legislatures before triggering Article 50.

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The devolution statutes were enacted on the assumption that the UK

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would be a member of the EU, but they do not require it.

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Relations with the EU, are a matter for the UK Government.

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The Attorney General, Jeremy Wright, had this reaction to the judgement.

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It's a case that it was wholly appropriate for the highest court

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Of course the Government is disappointed with the outcome.

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But we have the good fortune to live in a country where everyone,

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every individual, every organisation, everyone government,

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So the Government will comply with the judgment of the court,

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and do all that is necessary to implement it.

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Gina Miller is the business woman who brought the case

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Here's how she reacted to the judgement.

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In Britain, we are lucky, we are fortunate to have the ability

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to voice legitimate concerns and views as part

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I have therefore been shocked by the levels of personal abuse that

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I have received from many quarters, over the last seven months,

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for simply bringing and asking a legitimate question.

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Let's talk to our political editor, Laura Kuenssberg.

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Laura, the Government respects the judgment, even though it lost, and

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lawyers have described the ruling a as victory for democracy, what does

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Theresa May do now? The first thing as one Government minister said was

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to say phew, that might sound strange given the Government have

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lost this case, they certainly have, and let us not forget they did not

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want to be in this position. No question about that. However, they

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had two clear fears about what the court might say this morning, one

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they would give the devolved administrations a formal role and

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say they had to have an official say over this process, the judges held

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back from doing that, so that is one small victory for the Government.

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Part two, the court did not say what kind of legislation, what kind of

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act the Government would have to come forward with. And that was

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another small victory for the Government, so phew on those two

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accounts, the judges did not tell them they had to consultant the

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other authorities and they did not spell out the kind of legislation

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they had to put forward. Therefore, they can push ahead with what might

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even only be a bill of two lines, that we might see as soon as

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tomorrow, and I expect that the Government might try to tie this all

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up within the next fortnight as far as Westminster is concerned. In

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order to stick to the timetable of the end of March, but does that mean

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then, that MPs will not be able to put down amendments? We have heard

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from the SNP they will try and put down 50 substantive amendments. Yes

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and there will be huge efforts from those on the Remain side to try to.

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A mend this bill, no question about that. Some of them will be debated

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and there are real questions too, for the Government, if somebody

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manages to get an amendment down, about whether or not we should stay

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in the single market, if they manage to get an amendment down about a

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vote at the end of the process that would be binding. That could start

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be sticky. There is a pretty widespread expectation now that the

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amendments might be troublesome. It could be bumpy, particularly when

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this hits the House of Lords, but there isn't widespread expectation

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this will go through and with the two big headaches not having been

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realised by stream court, the Government strange as it sounds they

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have been defeated but they are relieved. This. Amendment that

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Labour has talked about. A meaningful vote, that would be a

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veto? It would, so there is going to be a real game of cat-and-mouse in

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terms of which amendments a are selected by the Deputy Speaker

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rather the than John Bercow who will select the amendments that go

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forward. Even the selection will be a political act. But this is going

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to be difficult, for anybody, Jeremy Corbyn or any one else trying to put

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down amendments here, because where the government has a lot of people

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would thinked its cards wisely, Theresa May got out last week ahead

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of the Supreme Court verdict today and set out with clarity for the

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first time, what her plan is. She has tried to pitch that very much as

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this is what she believes people voted for and therefore, nobody can

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try to disturb or disrupt that, so people who are trying to put forward

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amendments will be doing so up against that context, and I think

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when you talk to MPs of all political parties right now, there

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is an acceptance that whatever they try to do, whether it is Jeremy

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Corbyn's amendment or anything else, the time for being able to slam the

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brakes on this is probably past. At least it seems that way for now, in

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six or nine month whence once we are in negotiations this could feel a

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very very different picture. Thank you.

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Welcome both o you. Fist your reaction, are you disappointed by

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the ruling? No, I think it was widely expected that this would be

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the ruling, it is a ruling that the constitutional lawyers and the

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academics will crawl over and it very important for basic issues line

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the use of a Royal Prerogative, but in termles of Brexit, I don't think

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it will make much difference now and as Laura rightly said, the fact that

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Parliament can reach a quick decision and move on was the

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important outcome. So do you also agree with Laura's assessment that a

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very short bill will be presented to Parliament, rather than a

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substantive piece of legislation? Yes, I mean, what the Supreme Court

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has said is that Parliament needs to authorise the Government to trigger

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Article 50. That is a couple of loins of legislation. I would expect

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that bill to be published very quickly and for it to go through

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Parliament quick. We expected the first part of the ruling and no

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doubt you are disappointed by what the Supreme Court President said

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that relations with the EU are a matter for the UK Government, he was

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very clear, so do you accept now that the devolved assemblies leek

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the Scottish Parliament will not have a veto? Well, one thing that

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the judgment did say today was that it is a political decision. It is up

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to Theresa May about whether or not the Scottish Parliament has a say,

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now the UK Parliament has never legislated on an issue that is the

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responsibility of the Scottish Parliament in the EU impacts on

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fishing, farming energy. But it's a matter of Foreign Affairs. They have

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never done so. Where there is a political decision,ing if it's a

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political decision, is that union of equals, is it a respect agenda in

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terms of devolution and will that settlement be respected. When will

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you hold a independence referendum on the fact the Government isn't

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going to legally be bound to ask for your say, in this decision, when

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will you hold the referendum? We haven't triggered Article 50 yet.

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Let us see what the minister has to say about what happens next. One

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thing that has been hugely disappointing to is is the Scottish

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Government put forward a compromise. We put forward compromise, that was

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flatly rejected, and that was really disappointing that the UK Government

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is not prepared to meet the Scottish Government and the other devolved

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administrations half way. Once Article 50 is triggered and it looks

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like that will happen by the end of March which is what Theresa May

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would like to see, we know that the UK will be coming out of the single

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market, is that when you will tell us when the independence referendum

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will be? That is obviously something the Scottish Parliament will have to

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debate. The the referendum comes highly likely, this is as a direct

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result of the UK Government refusing to compromise, refusing to give any

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ground. We did not vote to leave the insystem market. We were promised

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that Scotland would get powers over immigration by vote leave, we are

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not getting that, we have had a series of broken promises by the UK

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Government and this puts Scotland and its relationship of equals into

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a very difficult place. Right. Steven has a point. Even Theresa May

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said the devolved assemblies were going to be fully engaged. Of course

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they will be. They don't if they don't have that say. They will take

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part in the debates in Parliament. They have initiated debates in

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Parliament. At the end of the day, the Scottish Government is not an

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equal of Westminster Government, certain matters are devolved to the

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Scottish Government, one of those is not the matters concerning the

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European Union, this is a decision for the Westminster Parliament.

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Right. You do accept that which is what I said to you initially, that

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when it comes to matters of the EU, when it comes to Foreign Affairs

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these are not devolved issues. But things like fishing and farming are.

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Energy is a devolved issue. Will you have a say on that through the

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committee? These are Members of Parliament. John's forgetting that

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members of Parliament are not members of the Government, we are

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members of the Westminster Parliament us juz as Conservative

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MSPs are members of the Scottish Parliament. Democracy does not begin

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and end at Westminster, and this is something the Conservative Party has

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not really kept pace with, and thus is disastrous electoral showing in

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Scotland. And you could pay the price for that, as the ballot box,

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in future elections but in terms of being fully engaged, how do you see

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the devolved assemblies being fully engaged, other than sitting on a

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committee or two in Brexit? I'm sure the government will listen

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to the views of the devolved governments. If they make sensible

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suggestions, I'm sure they will be taken into account. When you say it

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was promised, what was the wording given to you by Michael Gove in

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terms of a promise that immigration would be devolved? He thought it

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would be sensible for Scotland to have control over immigration

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because we have particular needs. Freedom of movement is something

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jobs rely on. I will read you what he said. He said, if in the course

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of the negotiations the Scottish Parliament wants to play a role in

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deciding how a Visa system could work, then that is something we

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would look into. That's not quite the same as saying they would

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devolve immigration. I raised this in the chamber. When I asked Michael

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Gove if it would mean devolving immigration, he nodded. It was an

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act of negligence that the UK government has carried on. If they

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can keep this simple promise, what hope Howie for the rest of these

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areas? -- can't. You behaved in a negligent manner. You make promises

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you couldn't keep. The vote Leave campaign was not the government.

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What Michael Gove said sounds very sensible to me. But sadly, in my

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view, Michael Gove is not a member of the government now, nor am I. It

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means it is a matter for the government to decide. Steven Cousins

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HAAS to go. Thank you. Jenny Chapman, Jeremy Corbyn has said this

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morning Labour will not frustrate the process of invoking article 50.

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But he has said he will seek to amend the Bill and ensure there is a

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meaningful vote. What is that? The reason it is meaningful is that it

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needs to come before the deal is signed. There will be two votes. I

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don't think people got their heads around it. The votes we are talking

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about today is around the Article 50 agreement, the withdrawal agreement

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from the EU, which will deal with things like pensions and

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contributions, all of those sorts of issues. Also in that agreement is

:17:19.:17:22.

likely to be a transitional deal, which we will be on. That will

:17:23.:17:26.

inform our relationship as we leave so there is no cliff edge. What is

:17:27.:17:31.

not in that withdrawal agreement is the free-trade deal, or whatever our

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future agreement is going to be with the EU. That is another bowled

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Parliament needs to have. Theresa May needs to give parliament a votes

:17:42.:17:48.

on any trade deal she goes into in the future. Would you go along with

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that? Parliament obviously needs a votes. That is very clear. The

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problem is that once Article 50 is triggered, then we are set on a path

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which will lead to Britain leaving. That is irrevocable. That is being

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argued about at the moment. That is what Article 50 says. If we chuck

:18:16.:18:22.

out the deal and say Parliament decides it doesn't like the deal,

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then we leave anyway. We just don't have a deal. This is where the

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argument lies. If there is a vote and Parliament does vote it down. We

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don't like the deal, we don't think we are getting enough in terms of

:18:38.:18:41.

what we wanted with regard to free-trade, do we stay in the EU at

:18:42.:18:47.

that point, or do we go on to World Trade Organisation rules? One is the

:18:48.:18:54.

transitional deal we could have. That takes away this, you either

:18:55.:19:00.

take this deal or not. That was a stupid thing for the Prime Minister

:19:01.:19:03.

to have said because it will not be the case. You can actually extend

:19:04.:19:06.

the negotiating period should you need to. That has to get the

:19:07.:19:14.

agreement of the other 27 states. The debate is taking place as if

:19:15.:19:18.

that is not possible. It is possible. You agree it is a risk? Of

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course. He could not get agreement, we would be on a cliff edge. Indeed.

:19:27.:19:31.

I don't think it would be in the interest of the other 27 states. Why

:19:32.:19:38.

shouldn't there be a deal to say that actually, just go back and

:19:39.:19:42.

negotiate further in the interests of the UK? Parliament has the

:19:43.:19:48.

ability to vote at any stage of the process. But at the end of the day

:19:49.:19:56.

this is in negotiation the government has to conduct. I think

:19:57.:19:59.

the Prime Minister is right to warn against any attempt to bind the

:20:00.:20:04.

hands of the negotiating team. We don't want to set conditions on the

:20:05.:20:09.

government. Europe will know that and will harden their stance

:20:10.:20:11.

immediately if they know that the government has to achieve something.

:20:12.:20:17.

Right. These are the arguments that have been set out before. We show

:20:18.:20:22.

our hand completely, we won't get the deal that we want. You accept

:20:23.:20:27.

that? Absolutely. You will not see an amendment from the Labour Party

:20:28.:20:31.

which says we want to see your negotiating tactics. We will be

:20:32.:20:38.

making probably five very reasonable amendments that I hope the House

:20:39.:20:42.

will adopt. We want to see a plan. We have had a speech. Do you want to

:20:43.:20:48.

see a White Paper? That would be great. If it is less than a White

:20:49.:20:52.

Paper but still fulfils the function of a plan, we would settle for that.

:20:53.:20:59.

We want certainty around EU citizens, certain principles around

:21:00.:21:03.

maximising free-trade, the Customs Union, that the Prime Minister

:21:04.:21:07.

outlined herself in her speech. We want parliamentary oversight and a

:21:08.:21:11.

vote before the end. Most of those things the Prime Minister has

:21:12.:21:15.

already said she accepts. I do not see why the government would want to

:21:16.:21:20.

obstruct our amendments. You have been clearer about what Labour pots

:21:21.:21:25.

position would be in terms of Article 50. Are you convinced by

:21:26.:21:31.

your labour colleagues? You will not get every Labour MP to vote in

:21:32.:21:36.

favour of triggering Article 50. Will there be a width? That is way

:21:37.:21:42.

above my pay grade! There is the small matter of the party

:21:43.:21:46.

leadership, the shadow Cabinet, the Chief whip. If you are quite firm as

:21:47.:21:50.

part of the Brexit team on issues like freedom of movement, invoking

:21:51.:21:55.

Article 50, should there be party management to whip Labour MPs? It is

:21:56.:22:01.

not up to me. Whatever we do, whether it is a three line whip, it

:22:02.:22:07.

is academic and away. There are MPs I know who, whatever working

:22:08.:22:12.

arrangements you put in place, are not going to vote Article 50. One of

:22:13.:22:18.

them was on the programme yesterday. You are split on this issue as we

:22:19.:22:23.

used to say the Conservatives are. We are not, really. It's different.

:22:24.:22:30.

It is nothing like what you have seen over decades in the Tory party.

:22:31.:22:35.

The referendum has put Labour MPs in positions where they are on

:22:36.:22:38.

different sides of this argument. But we respect one another pots 's

:22:39.:22:41.

edition on this. We are very understanding. --'s position. We saw

:22:42.:22:54.

IDS and Ken Clarke going at it hammer and tongs this morning on TV.

:22:55.:23:00.

I was a Maastricht rebel, so I remember! When it comes to the vote,

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I think what you will see is with probably the single exception of Ken

:23:10.:23:12.

Clarke, all Conservative MPs will vote to trigger Article 50. The

:23:13.:23:17.

Labour Party will probably go in three different directions. Thank

:23:18.:23:18.

you. Donald Trump's had a busy few days,

:23:19.:23:20.

and so far it's going well for him. His proposed Secretary of State has

:23:21.:23:25.

been given the green light by the Senate, and he's formally

:23:26.:23:28.

withdrawn from the Trans-Pacific But not everything is

:23:29.:23:30.

going according to plan. So our question for today

:23:31.:23:33.

is, what's gone wrong? At the end of the show John

:23:34.:23:37.

will give us the correct answer. Over the last year or so, strikes

:23:38.:24:08.

on Southern Trains have wreaked havoc on rail travellers

:24:09.:24:11.

in the south east of England. The row over who should operate

:24:12.:24:13.

the doors on new trains has re-opened the debate

:24:14.:24:16.

about whether our strike laws need toughening, and today,

:24:17.:24:18.

Conservative backbencher Chris Philp is introducing a bill to the Commons

:24:19.:24:20.

to address the issue - and he joins us from

:24:21.:24:23.

Parliament's Central Lobby. What does your bill asked for? It

:24:24.:24:32.

asks for proportionality. It says the rights of the public to get to

:24:33.:24:36.

work or get home to see their loved ones, should be balanced with the

:24:37.:24:39.

right to strike. People do need to be able to get to work. A High Court

:24:40.:24:45.

judge should adjudicate were strike action is taking place or is

:24:46.:24:51.

proposed, to say that action must be reasonable and proportionate when

:24:52.:24:54.

weighed against the impact on the public, against the issue of the

:24:55.:25:01.

drivers. The action on Southern Railway has not been reasonable and

:25:02.:25:05.

proportionate. There have been 40 days when 300,000 people have been

:25:06.:25:09.

unable to get to work. The dispute centres on who opens or closes the

:25:10.:25:14.

doors. Driver operated stores run perfectly safely on 1.5 million

:25:15.:25:18.

trains in the last five years. The regulator says they are saved. They

:25:19.:25:25.

run safely on London Underground. It is -- the strike is running people's

:25:26.:25:33.

lives. The strike stayed past the required threshold. What

:25:34.:25:35.

justification have you got to make it even harder? Taking the RMT

:25:36.:25:44.

dispute with Southern as an example, something like 75% did vote for

:25:45.:25:48.

strike action. You have 300,000 people simply complaining about who

:25:49.:25:52.

opens or closes the door, preventing 300,000 people from getting to work

:25:53.:25:58.

on 40 days. It is not reasonable or proportionate. I'm not saying strike

:25:59.:26:02.

should be banned. I'm simply saying we should balance the right to

:26:03.:26:05.

strike with the right of people to get to work and recognise those

:26:06.:26:08.

rights as well as recognising the work of -- the rights of strike. Is

:26:09.:26:13.

the government supporting new? I'm not here to support -- to speak for

:26:14.:26:18.

the government. Begun and will speak for themselves. It is not currently

:26:19.:26:21.

government policy. They are thinking about it. The more the unions behave

:26:22.:26:26.

unreasonably, the more likely this kind of legislation becomes. We

:26:27.:26:30.

can't sit back and watch constituents' lives being ruined by

:26:31.:26:39.

this kind of action. If they behave unreasonably, it makes a case for

:26:40.:26:43.

legislation stronger. Watson of turnout are you expecting from your

:26:44.:26:48.

colleagues? After failing to predict the Brexit referendum and Donald

:26:49.:26:54.

Trump's election, not in the prediction business. It does have a

:26:55.:26:59.

lot of backbench support. Over 50 Conservative MPs signed a letter a

:27:00.:27:02.

couple of weeks ago to the daily Telegraph, and there is widespread

:27:03.:27:05.

support in parliament and more importantly in the country.

:27:06.:27:11.

Yesterday a Paul was published saying 64% of Londoners supported

:27:12.:27:15.

this. We're joined now by Mick Lynch

:27:16.:27:18.

of the RMT union. Let's go back to that opinion poll

:27:19.:27:28.

in yesterday's Evening Standard. 65% of Londoners want curbs on strikes

:27:29.:27:33.

by train or tube drivers. It would be good if you lose the vote? 61% of

:27:34.:27:40.

the country on a nationwide poll support the right of trained staff,

:27:41.:27:46.

emergencies services start, doctors, Fire Brigade 's etc, to maintain

:27:47.:27:51.

their right to strike. He is saying, if you strike on the way we like and

:27:52.:27:55.

it's very ineffective, I will tolerate your right to strike. This

:27:56.:28:00.

is a suppression of human rights. Long-standing human rights that

:28:01.:28:02.

trade unions and working class people have had. People have rights.

:28:03.:28:07.

It is balanced by, if you like, in an unfair whereby the current raft

:28:08.:28:11.

of legislation which has just gone through Parliament. It is not even

:28:12.:28:15.

fully enforced yet. We have a raft of balancing laws that will restrict

:28:16.:28:19.

the right to strike coming in on March the 1st. They have been on a

:28:20.:28:24.

process of voting in parliament. This is more about Chris Phipps's

:28:25.:28:30.

ambition. He is getting a profile out of it. He has not done enough to

:28:31.:28:35.

bring about a resolution and put pressure on Chris Kelly -- Chris

:28:36.:28:38.

Grayling and Southern to bring a resolution. He is politicising the

:28:39.:28:42.

dispute through his own ends and for the Tory party's agenda, which is

:28:43.:28:46.

whenever the trade unions dared to put their heads above the parapet,

:28:47.:28:50.

they want to make what we do illegal and crush resistance. He is not

:28:51.:28:57.

wanting to make it illegal? All but. Yes, I support the bill. I will vote

:28:58.:29:04.

for it if there is a vote today. How would you deem a strike to be

:29:05.:29:06.

unreasonable on an essential service? Chris has set out that the

:29:07.:29:11.

critically essential services should have additional requirements

:29:12.:29:19.

before... What would there be? Primarily transport, rail, perhaps

:29:20.:29:22.

the tubes. Things huge number of people depend on. Chris is speaking

:29:23.:29:27.

up for his own constituents and travellers on Southern rail who have

:29:28.:29:30.

been put through misery Day misery Day after day. Do you blame the

:29:31.:29:34.

company? The company is certainly open to criticism. Shouldn't some of

:29:35.:29:42.

the pressure be going on to the company? I know Chris Grayling is

:29:43.:29:45.

talking to the company and the union. He has done nothing. He has

:29:46.:29:53.

said his door is open. This is about strike action and whether there are

:29:54.:29:59.

some services were there needs to be protection for the consumers. Chris

:30:00.:30:00.

has come up with some suggestions. What you mean, paying conditions

:30:01.:30:13.

that people have built up, you find that to be too much and you are

:30:14.:30:18.

going to challenge it and get one of your friends to the judiciary to

:30:19.:30:22.

make that strike illegal. At the moment they haven't done well with

:30:23.:30:26.

their friends in the judiciary. There are people that are willing to

:30:27.:30:30.

put the trade unions down. No-one wants to give us the freedom enjoyed

:30:31.:30:36.

in other countries, we have the most repressive laws in the western

:30:37.:30:41.

world. They are mirrors what is in place in other countries. Other

:30:42.:30:46.

restrictive practises. Other countries... People are more tree to

:30:47.:30:57.

take action. Australia, developed western economy, they recognise on

:30:58.:31:01.

critical services you need protection. The DFT has put people

:31:02.:31:05.

through misery, there is no need for this dispute in the first place, the

:31:06.:31:10.

DFT has sponsored this dispute from the beginning to get rid of guards

:31:11.:31:14.

on the trains it a political dispute in the sense your party and

:31:15.:31:17.

Government is running I Do you accept both sides have politicised

:31:18.:31:21.

it. You have on the one side, I have before quoted to you the RMT

:31:22.:31:25.

President, you said it was quoted out of context but it was broadly

:31:26.:31:28.

about taking down a Tory Government when it came to resisting strike

:31:29.:31:34.

action and you blamed the Tory Government, for ideologically

:31:35.:31:36.

opposing these strikes and not doing enough about the company, so

:31:37.:31:40.

politics has dogged this strike on both sides. All strikes have a

:31:41.:31:44.

political element. There is going to be something in there that is a

:31:45.:31:51.

broader agenda. The Tory party and the DFT want to dehumanise the

:31:52.:31:55.

railway. They will change the franchises, so that the companies

:31:56.:31:58.

can make no profit and their ambition is to get rid of guards on

:31:59.:32:03.

all trains in the UK. Is that that your ambition? We made clear this is

:32:04.:32:10.

a dispute between the operating company, it is the case that across

:32:11.:32:14.

the rest of the country there are large numbers of trains that are

:32:15.:32:17.

driver only operated without any difficulty whatsoever. I suppose

:32:18.:32:21.

what I could say in terms of the legislation itself, this trade union

:32:22.:32:24.

legislation was brought in relatively recently, if you are

:32:25.:32:30.

supportive of toughening up or going further with that legislation you

:32:31.:32:35.

got it wrong the first time round. Chris is introducing a private

:32:36.:32:38.

member bill. He is putting suggestions on the table, I think

:32:39.:32:42.

they are interesting one, I think they are worth looking at,

:32:43.:32:44.

particularly given the experience we have had in the last few weeks. Will

:32:45.:32:49.

the Government move on it? That is a matter for the Government. Should

:32:50.:32:53.

they? I would hope they would. You are revisiting a piece of

:32:54.:32:56.

legislation you have only just brought in. I think what is driving

:32:57.:33:01.

Chris fillip and a lot of other people is the fact 300,000 people

:33:02.:33:07.

are being put through hell, over a arcane dispute between two trade

:33:08.:33:12.

unions about who opens the doors. It is not arcane. We are passionate

:33:13.:33:21.

about defending the standards of safety on the railway. You choose

:33:22.:33:27.

not to believe that, but the guard has other roles besides opening and

:33:28.:33:29.

closing door, that is what the dispute is about. Whenever we put

:33:30.:33:33.

forward reasonable industrial accuse sun that is effective you seek to

:33:34.:33:39.

make it illegal. The Tory party has never reported legislation that will

:33:40.:33:43.

assist trade unions, this is another chapter in oppressing our rights and

:33:44.:33:46.

another in suppressing people's freedom and the ability to resist

:33:47.:33:50.

what this Government is doing and what the employers are doing. The

:33:51.:33:54.

Government says it is about balancing rights between the people

:33:55.:33:58.

who use the services and people like you who work in the service, but

:33:59.:34:04.

could this strike action actually backfire for the unions, if it

:34:05.:34:09.

results in the Government backing even tougher leg lacing you sigh as

:34:10.:34:15.

anti-union. So you come out with your hands up. We are not prepared

:34:16.:34:19.

to do that. What can you do? We have the right to industrial action and

:34:20.:34:23.

we will continue to do so. We try do that within the law as we do with

:34:24.:34:27.

everything else. Regulation about tax and returns and the rest of it.

:34:28.:34:32.

We will continue to act within the law until the Tories make that

:34:33.:34:36.

impossible. Wouldn't it be better to try and have a reconciliation,

:34:37.:34:39.

rather than talking about tougher legislation that is is only going to

:34:40.:34:42.

escalate this row because we have heard, they will continue the union,

:34:43.:34:46.

which is within their right further strike action. One of the

:34:47.:34:49.

suggestions in the bill is on essential services, where there is

:34:50.:34:52.

an industrial dispute there should be a requirement to go to

:34:53.:34:54.

arbitration, that is one possibility. Another is it should go

:34:55.:34:59.

before perhaps a judge, not a friendly one, as we had seen today

:35:00.:35:03.

but an independent judge who can rule as to whether or not the action

:35:04.:35:06.

taken is proportionate. These are suggestions at this stage. This is

:35:07.:35:10.

not going to become law, they are sensible and worth looking at. Thank

:35:11.:35:13.

Now, Donald Trump promised yesterday to "cut business regulation

:35:14.:35:16.

Could the UK government do the same here?

:35:17.:35:19.

That's the hope of many of those who campaigned

:35:20.:35:21.

They say red tape associated with our membership of the EU

:35:22.:35:25.

is costing the UK economy billions of pounds every year.

:35:26.:35:27.

One of the burning issues of the referendum campaign.

:35:28.:35:43.

It is absurd that we are told you cannot sell bananas in bunches

:35:44.:35:47.

If we take back control, we will lift the burden.

:35:48.:35:56.

?600 million a week lifted off the backs of British industry.

:35:57.:36:01.

Bananas claimed about wonky fruit aside, saving all that money

:36:02.:36:05.

by getting rid of red tape is surely a persuasive argument.

:36:06.:36:09.

In 2014, the think-tank Open Europe costed the impact of the 100 most

:36:10.:36:13.

expensive EU regulations on the British economy

:36:14.:36:17.

Take environmental legislation, such as the UK Renewable Energy Strategy.

:36:18.:36:21.

Costing a yearly ?4.7 billion, it's one of the hottest

:36:22.:36:24.

Or employment legislation, such as the Working Time Directive.

:36:25.:36:35.

That was said to cost business ?4.2 billion a year.

:36:36.:36:37.

There is an annual price tag of ?2.1 billion

:36:38.:36:39.

for the Temporary Agency Workers Directive.

:36:40.:36:44.

Lots and lots of regulations that are very much to do

:36:45.:36:46.

with bureaucracy, rather than real benefit, and that bureaucracy

:36:47.:36:49.

cost businesses money, especially when it's applied

:36:50.:36:52.

The British Chambers, for example, stopped measuring it in 2010

:36:53.:36:59.

because nobody was listening, and by that point they'd already

:37:00.:37:02.

estimated that European regulations cost ?80 billion a year.

:37:03.:37:07.

Big numbers, but the Government holds its hands up and says it likes

:37:08.:37:11.

many of these regulations, and any way it realises it

:37:12.:37:13.

could get its fingers burned by removing them.

:37:14.:37:15.

Under my leadership, not only will the Government protect

:37:16.:37:18.

the rights of workers set out in European legislation,

:37:19.:37:20.

Because under this Conservative Government,

:37:21.:37:25.

we will make sure legal protection for workers keeps pace

:37:26.:37:28.

The think-tank Open Europe reckon there is an annual ?13 billion

:37:29.:37:36.

saving to be had from deregulation, but that would come

:37:37.:37:38.

from amending EU rules, rather than dumping them completely.

:37:39.:37:41.

The Government's plan is to take EU regulation

:37:42.:37:49.

on to the UK statute book, and the first instance is to keep

:37:50.:37:52.

that regulation the same, in terms of negotiation with the EU,

:37:53.:37:54.

but clearly the Government is giving itself the tools to look

:37:55.:37:58.

at regulations in the future, because it will be something that

:37:59.:38:00.

I certainly think that as the relationship

:38:01.:38:03.

develops, as we are outside of the European Union,

:38:04.:38:08.

it is inevitable in some areas regulation is going to diverge

:38:09.:38:10.

different attitudes to certain issues, and as the EU takes

:38:11.:38:14.

different attitudes we might no longer sign up to.

:38:15.:38:16.

Those hoping for a bonfire of EU regulations the day

:38:17.:38:18.

after Brexit might want to dampen their expectations.

:38:19.:38:20.

Changing the rules or getting rid of them completely,

:38:21.:38:22.

even if you wanted to, could well be a slow burn.

:38:23.:38:33.

You enjoyed that John. I suppose you would think one of the great add van

:38:34.:38:40.

Tam of Brexit is we will be able to establish vast swathes of

:38:41.:38:42.

regulation, which would you like to get rid of first? I think there is a

:38:43.:38:46.

lot to choose from, what we have said to British business is you tell

:38:47.:38:52.

us which are the most burden some, the most unnecessary, pieces of

:38:53.:38:55.

regulation and we will look at whether they can be repealed. This

:38:56.:38:59.

is going to take time. It is not part of the Brexit negotiations, but

:39:00.:39:03.

because what we will do is introduce a bill that transfers all European

:39:04.:39:06.

regulations into British law and then we will have the opportunity to

:39:07.:39:09.

go through and decide which are appropriate and which are not.

:39:10.:39:12.

Right. But what are the regulations that you would like to get rid of?

:39:13.:39:19.

Boris Johnson said we can get rid of the pointless rules, what did he

:39:20.:39:23.

have in mind? I think you have had a list put up on the screen of some.

:39:24.:39:27.

Things like the Working Time Directive, not to remove entirely.

:39:28.:39:31.

Part of the problem with European regulation is they agreed in

:39:32.:39:35.

Brussels, as a single regulation across the whole of #y50u6r7. What

:39:36.:39:40.

we will be able do is design it so it meets our needs, it might be that

:39:41.:39:44.

certain sectors should be exempted for instance from Working Time

:39:45.:39:47.

Directive, but we have the time to look at these things and craft them,

:39:48.:39:52.

so they don't impose unnecessary costs and burdens. You would like to

:39:53.:39:57.

restrict something like the Working Time Directive which is a cost of

:39:58.:40:02.

4.2 billion. That season a area where we can say to the various

:40:03.:40:06.

sectors for maybe the farming sector or the NHS or others who have

:40:07.:40:09.

complained about the impact of Working Time Directive, you tell us

:40:10.:40:12.

what is necessary, and which is unnecessary, and just adding to our

:40:13.:40:15.

costs and then the British Government can draw up the

:40:16.:40:18.

regulation, specifically designed for the needs of that particular

:40:19.:40:22.

sector. That puts you at odds with the Prime Minister, because Theresa

:40:23.:40:26.

May wants to enhance exactly that type of employment protection and

:40:27.:40:29.

legislation, a fairer Britain she says is a country that protects an

:40:30.:40:33.

enhances the rights people have at work, so she doesn't want to do

:40:34.:40:38.

that. We don't want to sweep away all Rourkers -- workers' rights. You

:40:39.:40:42.

have said business tells you we want to get some of the regulations and

:40:43.:40:48.

rules that will know doubt, some will include employment protection,

:40:49.:40:51.

the ones Theresa May says she wants to keep. They would say we would

:40:52.:40:57.

like you to get rid of it. I can remember from my time in Government

:40:58.:41:02.

there were measures which the Government oppose which we argued

:41:03.:41:07.

against and loss in a vote, so we were still required to implement.

:41:08.:41:10.

There are plenty of examples like that where we have side this is not

:41:11.:41:14.

necessary. It is going to add to costs now we will have the ability

:41:15.:41:18.

to get rid. Are you disappointed by what Theresa May said? No,some She

:41:19.:41:23.

goes on to say that is why in order to have this fair ir-Britain, that

:41:24.:41:26.

is why as we translate, which with you said the body of European law

:41:27.:41:29.

into domestic regulation for we willen shoe shoe that workers'

:41:30.:41:33.

rights are fully protected and maintained. She doesn't want to get

:41:34.:41:38.

rid of any of it That is no what she is saying. He is saying workers'

:41:39.:41:42.

rights are fully protected and maintained. Under my leadership, not

:41:43.:41:46.

only will the Government protect the rights of workers, set out in

:41:47.:41:50.

European legislation, like the temporary agency workers directive

:41:51.:41:53.

and the working time directive, we will build on them. She wants to

:41:54.:41:58.

increase it. One of the things about being outside the European Union is

:41:59.:42:01.

we can reduce regulation in areas where we think it is unnecessary, if

:42:02.:42:06.

there are air areas we would like to do more we have the chance to do so.

:42:07.:42:10.

That will increase the talk. About this tall from you and Boris Johnson

:42:11.:42:15.

and you and your leave colleagues we are going to wipe away billions, not

:42:16.:42:19.

according to Theresa May, or what you have said is you might build.

:42:20.:42:24.

There are one or two areas where we wanted to go further and the

:42:25.:42:28.

European Union held us back. Animal welfare and legislation, we were

:42:29.:42:31.

stopped from bringing in certain protections, but in the vast

:42:32.:42:36.

majority of cases, Europe has added more and more regulation. Where? I

:42:37.:42:40.

am trying to get to the bottom of it. If you have accepted that

:42:41.:42:43.

Theresa May wants to not only keep workers' rights legislation, but

:42:44.:42:47.

build on them, environmental legislation, such as the UK

:42:48.:42:52.

renewable energy strategy comes in at 4.7 billion. Environmental

:42:53.:42:55.

protections would you get rid of those to save money? We will draw

:42:56.:43:00.

them up so they are appropriate for this country, there will be some

:43:01.:43:02.

elements of European regulation which are sensible and which we will

:43:03.:43:06.

say we have no intention of repealing those, but where there are

:43:07.:43:11.

examples where we believe that they are unnecessary and costly, we can

:43:12.:43:14.

get rid of them. Have you got any examples? Are we going to get to the

:43:15.:43:19.

bottom of the list... As we talked about one or two, like Working Time

:43:20.:43:24.

Directive, which we wouldn't necessarily get rid of. Theresa May

:43:25.:43:27.

doesn't want to get rid of it. She hasn't said that, she said she will

:43:28.:43:31.

protect workers right. Where there is a strong case, we will keep those

:43:32.:43:36.

thing, when I was Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport we had

:43:37.:43:39.

European regulation coming through, which we strongly opposed, and yes

:43:40.:43:43.

we were forced to implement. We can look at it again and some we may

:43:44.:43:48.

keep and other parts we have the freedom to repeal. Boris Johnson

:43:49.:43:53.

said we can, when we take back control we can save ?600 million a

:43:54.:43:58.

week, will be lifted off the backs of British industry, do you agree

:43:59.:44:04.

with that? John Longworth you had earlier, he ran the British Chambers

:44:05.:44:08.

of Commerce who used to keep the running total of the cost of

:44:09.:44:12.

regulation, I don't think you can put a specific figure on it. Boris

:44:13.:44:15.

Johnson did. There is a vast amount of regulation which adds to cost,

:44:16.:44:19.

makes us less competitive and destroys jobs. You haven't been able

:44:20.:44:23.

to give me a specific example We have been talking about specific

:44:24.:44:26.

example, I have given you several. I think that it is for business to

:44:27.:44:33.

tell us, those areas of regulation they found to be most costly and for

:44:34.:44:39.

which there is little justification. As we come to debate the great

:44:40.:44:42.

repeal bill, that will be consequence.

:44:43.:44:45.

Now, Theresa May refused to say on Sunday whether she was aware that

:44:46.:44:48.

a Trident missile had veered off course towards Florida in a test

:44:49.:44:51.

Yesterday it was revealed that the Prime Minister was made

:44:52.:44:56.

aware of the incident when she took office in July, and the Defence

:44:57.:44:59.

Secretary, Michael Fallon, was summoned to the House of Commons

:45:00.:45:02.

As the matters we are about to discuss are of the utmost

:45:03.:45:13.

confidentiality and may give succour to Her Majesty's enemies,

:45:14.:45:17.

I beg to move - I beg to move that the House sit in private.

:45:18.:45:23.

Under Standing Order Number 163, I am obliged to this this question

:45:24.:45:27.

The question is that the House do sit in private.

:45:28.:45:35.

As many as are of that opinion say aye.

:45:36.:45:37.

We do not comment on the detail of submarine operations.

:45:38.:45:52.

I can, however, assure the House that during any test firing

:45:53.:45:56.

the safety of the crew and public is paramount, and is

:45:57.:46:01.

I can assure the House that the capability and effectiveness

:46:02.:46:07.

of the United Kingdom's independent nuclear deterrent is not in doubt.

:46:08.:46:13.

The Government has absolute confidence in our deterrent,

:46:14.:46:16.

and in the Royal Navy crews who protect us and our Nato allies,

:46:17.:46:20.

Can I ask the Secretary of State a simple question.

:46:21.:46:30.

Why was this information deliberately kept from Parliament

:46:31.:46:33.

Who made the decision to keep this incident quiet?

:46:34.:46:36.

Was it his department or was it Number Ten?

:46:37.:46:40.

And while respecting the limits of what he can disclose,

:46:41.:46:43.

can he at least set out what investigation his

:46:44.:46:45.

department has carried out into what happened in June?

:46:46.:46:48.

And what assurances he can give that there will be no future cover

:46:49.:46:52.

Mr Speaker, at the heart of this issue is a worrying lack

:46:53.:46:59.

of transparency and a Prime Minister who's chosen to cover

:47:00.:47:01.

up a serious incident, rather than coming clean

:47:02.:47:04.

This House, and more importantly the British public, deserves better.

:47:05.:47:13.

While accepting that the nuclear deterrent needs to be

:47:14.:47:17.

shrouded in secrecy, it also needs to deter,

:47:18.:47:21.

and once stories get out there, that a missile may have failed,

:47:22.:47:24.

isn't it better to be quite frank about it,

:47:25.:47:26.

especially if it has no strategic significance, as in this case

:47:27.:47:34.

John Whittingdale, has this been handled well by Number 10? I think

:47:35.:47:53.

it is faintly absurd to have a 40 minute session of MPs asking

:47:54.:47:58.

questions and having the Secretary of State refused to answer them,

:47:59.:48:04.

basically. But he is quite right. Matters of nuclear deterrent are

:48:05.:48:07.

concerned with security and we never comment on these. There have been

:48:08.:48:11.

successful tests publicised in the past. Press releases have been sent

:48:12.:48:18.

out. And the Prime Minister was briefed a rout -- about this test

:48:19.:48:21.

misfiring. Should they have come clean when they were asked? What the

:48:22.:48:29.

Secretary of State has told us, the submarine is now back doing its job

:48:30.:48:35.

and we have come out the other side. Eukaryote test to see if there are

:48:36.:48:40.

problems and then correct them. -- eukaryote test. I don't think you

:48:41.:48:47.

can put out a press release to tell everybody that Britain's nuclear

:48:48.:48:52.

deterrent has a problem. Because it undermines deterrence Ubud Julian

:48:53.:49:00.

Lewis says there have been umpteen other tests that have been

:49:01.:49:06.

successful. Should Number 10 have come clean? I don't think it would

:49:07.:49:11.

have affected the vote on Trident. You don't talk publicly on matters

:49:12.:49:17.

affecting public security. When it was all over the press, should a

:49:18.:49:21.

Theresa May have answered differently on the Andrew Marshall?

:49:22.:49:26.

If the Prime Minister had just said, I regret the fact that this was on

:49:27.:49:31.

the front page of the Sunday Times, but I'm still not prepared to talk

:49:32.:49:35.

about matters of national security, which is essentially what the

:49:36.:49:38.

Secretary of State then said later, that would have been fine. Is that

:49:39.:49:43.

what you have -- would have advised her to do? A long time ago I used to

:49:44.:49:48.

advise the Prime Minister before interviews and that is probably what

:49:49.:49:53.

I would have said. To some extent the Prime Minister could have

:49:54.:49:56.

stopped the debate on this in its tracks on Sunday by saying something

:49:57.:50:01.

more definitive, couldn't she? She clearly was on willing to answer the

:50:02.:50:06.

question. She might have been more explicit in just saying, I'm not

:50:07.:50:08.

going to answer that question. Our guest of the day,

:50:09.:50:11.

John Whittingdale, has to rush off now, but before he goes,

:50:12.:50:13.

let's find out the What hasn't gone

:50:14.:50:16.

well for Donald Trump John Whittingdale, what do you think

:50:17.:50:45.

is the right answer? The one I suspect he would probably be most

:50:46.:50:49.

sore about is Arnold Schwarzenegger. It's probably not the right answer!

:50:50.:50:55.

It is not. His new Washington, DC Hotel is losing money. I don't

:50:56.:51:00.

suppose people will shed any tears because he has got a few Bob. Thank

:51:01.:51:04.

you for being on the programme. Thank you.

:51:05.:51:06.

Back to our main story - the Supreme Court's judgement

:51:07.:51:08.

on whether Article 50 can be triggered.

:51:09.:51:10.

In the last hour, the Brexit Secretary, David Davis,

:51:11.:51:12.

I can announce today that we will shortly introduce legislation

:51:13.:51:18.

allowing the government to move ahead with invoking article 50,

:51:19.:51:22.

which starts the formal process of withdrawing from the European Union.

:51:23.:51:29.

We received the lengthy judgment a few hours ago and government lawyers

:51:30.:51:33.

are assessing it carefully. But this would be a straightforward bill.

:51:34.:51:38.

It's not about whether or not the UK should leave the European Union.

:51:39.:51:42.

That decision has already been made by the people of the United Kingdom.

:51:43.:51:47.

We will work with colleagues in both houses to ensure this bill is passed

:51:48.:51:51.

in good time and we will invoke article 50 by the end of March this

:51:52.:51:56.

year, as the Prime Minister has set out. We will introduce legislation

:51:57.:52:00.

to give the government legal power to trickle Article 50 and begin the

:52:01.:52:06.

formal process of withdrawal. It will be separate to the great repeal

:52:07.:52:11.

Bill to repeal the European Communities Act 1972, introduced

:52:12.:52:14.

later this year. This will be the most straightforward bill possible

:52:15.:52:19.

to effect the decision of the people and respect the decision of the

:52:20.:52:21.

Supreme Court. That was David Davis. We're joined now by the leader

:52:22.:52:25.

of the Liberal Democrats in the Lords, Lord Newby,

:52:26.:52:27.

and the former Ukip Welcome to both of you. Dick Newby,

:52:28.:52:36.

you are the leader of the Liberal Democrats in the House of Lords,

:52:37.:52:40.

which has a large contingent of more than 100 unelected peers. Are you

:52:41.:52:43.

going to block Article 50? We will try to amend the Bill. We will be

:52:44.:52:48.

trying to insert in the Bill a provision that the people should

:52:49.:52:53.

have the final say on the outcome of the Brexit negotiations. Do you want

:52:54.:53:01.

a second referendum? We want a first referendum. With the first

:53:02.:53:06.

referendum people voted for a raft of incompatible things. We want to

:53:07.:53:11.

give them the chance to vote on what will be a very specific negotiated

:53:12.:53:15.

outcome. I think it is quite likely we will oppose it. It will be

:53:16.:53:18.

perfectly available for people to vote in favour of Brexit at that

:53:19.:53:23.

point if they agree with the terms. Do you not feel uncomfortable that

:53:24.:53:27.

you would be leading 100 or so unelected peers in frustrating the

:53:28.:53:30.

well of more than 17 million voters in the referendum who called for the

:53:31.:53:35.

EU to live? We're not frustrating the will of the people. Giving

:53:36.:53:40.

people a vote is not frustrating the will of the people. It's

:53:41.:53:44.

implementing the will of the people or allowing them to implement their

:53:45.:53:49.

own will. Said that the fair enough? The House of Lords is there to

:53:50.:53:52.

scrutinise legislation and amendments will be laid down in good

:53:53.:53:57.

faith. It is there to scrutinise legislation but the government

:53:58.:54:00.

couldn't have been clearer when it spent ?9 million on that pamphlet it

:54:01.:54:04.

shoved through every letterbox in the land, in which it said clearly

:54:05.:54:08.

that you, the people, will decide this. It didn't actually put it into

:54:09.:54:13.

the legislation, technically, but there is no doubt about it that that

:54:14.:54:17.

is what was intended, that is what the British people thought they were

:54:18.:54:22.

doing when they voted for Brexit. I would be very surprised if, led by

:54:23.:54:30.

the Liberal Democrats in the House of Lords, the House of Lords did

:54:31.:54:33.

anything to frustrate that process. I think it would be madness. And,

:54:34.:54:41.

you know, they will be erecting the guillotine in Parliament Square

:54:42.:54:46.

pretty soon. That sounds pretty painful? We tried to amend the House

:54:47.:54:50.

of Lords so we were popularly elected. The Labour Party and the

:54:51.:54:57.

Tories wouldn't agree. According to Malcolm Pearson, it would be

:54:58.:55:01.

madness? We don't believe it would be madness. Giving people a vote

:55:02.:55:05.

could never be madness. We still believe the House of Lords as a role

:55:06.:55:10.

to play but it should be elected. The Supreme Court has upheld that.

:55:11.:55:15.

The government lost its case in the Supreme Court. They have said it is

:55:16.:55:20.

up are parliament to trigger the process of leaving the EU. Do you

:55:21.:55:27.

think those judges are enemies of the people, as described by the

:55:28.:55:34.

Daily Mail? No. I understand they said that Parliament had to be

:55:35.:55:37.

consulted about the triggering of Article 50, which is rather

:55:38.:55:42.

different. They said it had to be an act of Parliament. Yes. I gather

:55:43.:55:47.

that is going to be done soon. That's fine. There can be an act of

:55:48.:55:51.

Parliament to trigger Article 50 and the process will take place. The

:55:52.:55:55.

Prime Minister has said the result of the negotiations will be put

:55:56.:56:05.

again to Parliament. So again, it comes back to Parliament. But you

:56:06.:56:08.

must remember, the House of Lords is a very Europhile place. It's stuffed

:56:09.:56:11.

full of former EU Commissioner 's and assorted mischief who have

:56:12.:56:15.

actually brought this country into the bog with the European Union

:56:16.:56:18.

where we are. So the House of Lords will be very grudging about this.

:56:19.:56:23.

What do you think about the second referendum idea, or the first

:56:24.:56:27.

referendum idea as Dick Newby says? I don't think people will want it.

:56:28.:56:31.

It is pretty clear we will be able to do a very good deal with the EU.

:56:32.:56:37.

If you look at jobs, they have got 3 million more jobs selling things to

:56:38.:56:40.

us than we have to them. We held every card in the pack. On mutual

:56:41.:56:47.

residence, they have got 3 million people living here, we have 1.2

:56:48.:56:50.

million living there. Why is this going to be so difficult? It's not.

:56:51.:56:58.

It is in our interests to give us a painless exit from this ill-fated

:56:59.:57:03.

venture. We don't know what the negotiations are going to be. But

:57:04.:57:08.

divorce negotiations tend not to be happy, jolly events. Unless

:57:09.:57:12.

everybody would like to get something positive out of it?

:57:13.:57:15.

Everybody would like to get something out of it. Frankfurt would

:57:16.:57:20.

like to get City jobs, so would Paris, so would Dublin. Berlin would

:57:21.:57:25.

like to get our high-tech jobs. The negotiations will bear those jobs

:57:26.:57:28.

are very much in mind. Suzanne Evans, Ukip's Deputy chair, says

:57:29.:57:35.

judges should be subjected to some sort of democratic control. Do you

:57:36.:57:41.

agree? No, I don't think I do. It is very important for the separation of

:57:42.:57:46.

powers that Parliament and the executive and the judiciary, and

:57:47.:57:50.

indeed the church, remain... So you think today was a good day in terms

:57:51.:57:55.

of democracy? Think of is proper that it should happen. I regret the

:57:56.:58:00.

decision of the majority of the judges. But one wouldn't be

:58:01.:58:03.

surprised about that because on the whole are judges are pretty

:58:04.:58:09.

politically correct. You think they are Europhiles? I didn't say that!

:58:10.:58:15.

Are the Lib Dems moving away from the centre of the -- politics? Only

:58:16.:58:22.

a quarter of the support your call for a second referendum? I think

:58:23.:58:31.

that we saw erichment, and we are seeing weekly in by-elections, that

:58:32.:58:34.

many people support exactly what we are standing for. We look forward to

:58:35.:58:37.

this being chewed over in Parliament.

:58:38.:58:38.

That's all for today. Thanks to our guests.

:58:39.:58:40.

The One O'Clock News is starting over on BBC One now.

:58:41.:58:43.

I'll be back at 11:30 tomorrow with Andrew, for live coverage

:58:44.:58:47.

Do join us then. Bye bye.

:58:48.:58:54.

Jo Coburn is joined by former Culture, Media and Sport secretary John Whittingdale. They look at the Supreme Court's decision on whether the government must consult Parliament before triggering article 50 with Stephen Gethins from the SNP and Labour's Jenny Chapman. Also on the programme Conservative MP Chris Philp has a ten minute rule bill designed to toughen up the strike laws, Jo speaks to him and Mick Lynch from the RMT.