Wole Soyinka - Nobel Literature Laureate HARDtalk

Other reports put the figure much lower. Now on BBC News it's time for

Hardtalk. World come to HARDtalk, I am Terry. 100 years of trauma, an

assessment of Nigeria's century, none more apparent than in the

kidnapping of hundreds of schoolgirls by an Islamist group

that perceives learning as an alien imposition by Christians and

Europeans `` welcome. Wole Soyinka is Nigeria's most prominent writer,

the first African to be awarded the Nobel Prize for literature.

Persecuted by past government is for his commitment to democracy, what

did he make of how Nigeria has stood up to pressures of insurgency, then

temptations of oil wealth, and is a state that cannot guarantee the

safety of its children have a future? `` does a state. `` the

temptations. Wole Soyinka, welcome to HARDtalk.

As a writer, the son of a school teacher, what sort of feelings are

provoked by you, in a group with such a deep hatred of learning? As

Boko Haram? Sometimes, I feel that it is like a waste of life. That we

should come to this part, after what we have known of the struggles, not

only of Nigeria, but Nigeria in the context of the African wanted. To

come to a situation, where, almost like a simple ordinary event, 300

schoolchildren, they are children, they are abducted. And, one month

later, we don't know where they are definitively. `` African continent.

To bring them back, for me, that is the negation of my existence. That

group, that philosophy, is that a challenge to everything that you

have believed in and fought for three word and deed over the last

half a century? Does it feel that personal? Absolutely, I feel that it

is a negativity, in fact, my understanding of humanity and of

society and community, and ideology, it is my existence, at that stage in

my life. 300 of my children have been abducted, that is how it feels.

But also, there have been warnings, and so on and so forth, that makes

it even more painful. It is on a level where remedial action can be

taken immediately, that is what is horrifying. I noticed that 18 months

ago, you talked about the need for the nation to places on a war

footing. You said there is too pussyfooting. What did you mean by

that? Firstly, I have been saying this for the past five years. In

lectures, and could mean occasions, and what I mean is that a nation

cannot continue to live and organise its existence. `` communications.

With policies and actions, as if nothing has happened. Something

dramatic happened, the moment that a group of people decided that they

would be run according to only ones wishes. I am referring to Sharia. It

was, where you like, where it began structurally. But the signs have

been there before, with intolerance, from one side to the other, it has

been escalating, . Does that mean that religion is the problem? That

this is a war of God? It is not the only problem, but we are running

away, we are running away from recognising the fact that this is a

situation of the tale attempting to wag the dog. If you are living in a

secular constitution, or, as some people prefer, as a plural group.

``tail. A plural religious constitution, that allows for

certain laws to be made, which bind everybody. When a section detaches

itself, I use this language of a type, that state has seceded from a

nation. Unless everyone is brought back under the same constitution,

and that is when this division became structured. And power was

given. To only one section. It raises the interesting question of

whether this is about more than just Boko Haram, a group that has the

ability on the ground to terrorise parts of that community, or, whether

in a sense that community, you could argue, is complicit in all of this.

Last month you wrote whether the people themselves were sometimes

collaborators in the shrinkage of that space of choice and freedom?

Could Boko Haram have established themselves in this way if there was

not that degree of complicity? They took advantage of that, of the

negation of the quality of space and rights. Some politicians recognise

the fact that the opportunity was there. They brought together this

religious fanaticism on one hand, and established a rain of impurity.

I will not bore you with a catalogue of impunity of homicide, on the

basis of religion. Either as an individual or in the sacking of

entire communities. Including in the capital. Abuja, when the Boko Haram

mentality took over the entire capital. It has been building up all

of the time. Now, the pupils of these religious extremists, what we

`` they sought the advantage in turning on their own mentors. Once

you accept the right and the possibility of a small section, to

rule it over the entirety, sooner or later, the instruments and their

soldiers will become even radicalised. The look of those, and

say that you are not sufficiently is a most. `` they look at them. Would

it be possible if there was not a perception in large parts of the

north that the state, that Nigeria that was created 100 years ago, that

Nigeria that proudly claimed their independence, has become a state for

some and not all? That is right, it is where actualisation comes in.

Where the class detentions becomes so white, and corruption becomes an

ideology of the nation. `` wide. You see people living in palaces. Let me

put you about corruption, this is what the president said a few days

ago, he said over 70% of what is called corruption is not corruption

but common stealing. Corruption is perception and not reality. Is that

correct or semantics? Well, English as a foreign language, one has to

make allowances for how individuals and groups use the language.

Especially when the language is convenient for evading reality is,

and responsibilities, of governments. For heavens sake, I ask

you, when we talk about corruption, material corruption, and some would

say that it is not corruption that we had to deal with, but it is

stealing. What does that tell you? Either a total lack of understanding

of the society that you live in, or you can confuse it, you can confuse

the national leader, it depends on what it is. I find that it is the

same kind of evasion. In this case, it does not affect an individual but

it is a national responsibility of over 120 million people. 40 years

ago, the man died, and you wrote that justice is the first condition

of humanity, isn't that the first condition of humanity, is another

failure that draws together a number of these problems? That the state

has come in a sense, Nigeria, the country that you love, has

institutionalised injustice? Yes, if justice is, as I believe, the

condition of humanity, then a large swathe of the nation has been

dehumanised, and the culpable people, they are there, they are

caught with their pants down, and they resort to their interpretation

of the Scriptures. They blame those who schooled in the same Scriptures,

and they say, these people have not gone far enough. The reason for that

is that they basically corrupt and have been using religion. So, they

turn on those, and finally, everybody is guilty. So, how should

the nation respond to this? We have seen protests outside the National

Assembly in the last few days, 500 people for missing. There have been

previous incidents, you will remember earlier this year, 50 young

boys were burned to death in a school that was attacked, or they

were killed as they tried to escape. That did not create much attention

in Nigeria, and scarcely any in the outside world. Now, we have a focus

and the offer of international help. How should that be utilised by

the states machinery? How should the nation deal with this problem?

Firstly, by going backwards, and understanding, as we say in our

society, where the rain began. With the bombing of the United Nations

headquarters, and the police headquarters, go further back. The

invasion of the capital, individual assassinations, and, see section is

a wrong word, secretive, I am talking about ( `` cessation. Go

back to communities and recognise where really the culture of impunity

became established. Where was it established? Before I was born, I

remember a harmonious existence between other religions. Where

Christians interacted with Muslims, where so`called pagans or

traditional religions, where everyone had their own space. Then,

how did it change? Who manipulated the change? By the time you look at

the entire picture, you find the implement of impunity. Then, you

begin to eradicate impunity. That is on the level of social

transformation, the mental transformation of people. Then,

before you transform people, they have to be there are the people, to

be transformed. That is where military and security comes in.

Allowing understanding that what is happening in Nigeria, even if it was

homegrown, has crossed its borders and admitted there are those sports

of fundamentalism in other societies. If you pour in

international help, if he had Europeans and Americans in Nigeria,

do you create a propaganda coup for a group like Boko Haram who say

that, actually, the Nigerian state is only a cover for colonialism?

Nigerian soldiers have performed at intervened in Yugoslavia and

Lebanon, we have our soldiers still there in central Africa. If we have

responded to the crisis of our nations, not only on the African

continent, what is wrong with calling for help now? It is not

cashing in our checks. It is saying that we are part of one common

humanity, and we recognise that there are certain common problems,

which cannot be solved internally alone. But in trying to tackle

this, in trying to deal with the insurgency, the Nigerian military

has found itself accused of human rights abuses and some serious

allegations, which have led many human rights groups to say that what

we are seeing in the north is a cycle of killings but in part with

disenchantment with the government and the government's actions. One

senior Army officer has said that hundreds have been killed in

detention, either by shooting or suffocation. Many will not find that

any more appealing than the insurgency of Boko Haram. You and I

know that globally, the moment the first shot is fired anywhere on

earth, issues of human rights begin. The important thing of course

is to be so careless or complicit to allow that first shot to be fired.

When it comes, you have a multilevel operation. There are those who will

always insist that human rights must be respected. At the same time,

there are those who stand side`by`side with human rights being

respect that, not just from one side but both sides, who looked at the

security of society. It does not sound very progressive but let us

also tackle issues of security. We cannot avoid it. But at the same

time, let us make sure we are not accused of the crimes of the other

side. But to say that you will avoid human rights abuses 100% in

situations like this when human beings are being used as human

shields, when children are considered not inviolate but the

first primary target for the purposes of ordinary advantage, you

cannot be prepared to operate from both sides. And in a situation where

you believe there has been political impunity for not the highest

standards of public conduct, we have seen calls recently as a result of

the government's perceived slow response to the kidnapping for the

resignation of the government. Doctor Jonathan should resign. We

have no hope. Shame in our country. The best hope is for the government

to step down or else it will become a territorial conflict. Do you think

the government should go? I have got to be very careful about this. I do

not want to be seen as inciting a situation of total social anomie. At

the same time, I must express my feeling is that this government has

failed a nation. The primary task right now for me is to demonstrate a

sense of responsibility to those we bring into the world and those who

we send into danger zones. If we fail them, we fail our nation all

the way through, we lose all our self`respect. These demonstrations

have had... I have had nothing to do with it, but they are even belated

and they must continue until these children are brought home. We cannot

just say, oh, yes... No, no. Everything in the country must stand

still until these children are brought home. One was from an

opposition group and the other was from the trades union Congress, both

of them in River State, not state directly affected from the current

insurgency but a reflection of the political view. Do you share their

sentiments? It's a mistake to think... Going back years, it's a

mistake to think that what is happening now only affects one

section of the nation. There have been cells broken up in the south.

We will make a horrible mistake if we think it is confined only to one

section. And this has to be emphasised even when talking to

security officers. It is only a matter of time before we are

overwhelmed in the south. My question was, should the president

go? Would that be a way of focusing public attention on a recognition of

the problems this state has had in establishing its authority and its

failure to deal with a particularly egregious example of that weakness,

and an opportunity to start again? If I have a conviction one way or

the other, I will be the first person to call the president and

tell him that for the sake of the nation, he must sacrifice his

ambitions and hand over whatever kind of transitional Finn... I will

say that first. Are you at that point? I'm not at that point yet.

And certainly I would not be publicly here. I would say to him

first. You have written about your childhood in Nigeria, the tiny first

experience the fervour of political debate. You became aware of

politics, becoming gripped with the excitement of the discussions in the

drama all around you, and knowing the forces involved. Do you see any

sign of that further in the modern Nigeria or have Nigerians given up

on politics? Thank goodness Nigerians have not given up. They

would not. Otherwise we would not have these demonstrations going on,

discourse in such strident terms. But each society has its own moment

of critical mass. Nigeria has finally reached that moment of

critical mass. For me, it is very belated. It's not belated, it's

late. It should have happened much earlier. The resilience of Nigerian

society and the tolerance level is one that surprises many people all

over the world. Sometimes, I myself have given up. There is a kind of

temperament in Nigeria that waits until the price you pay is much

higher than you would have paid if you had started early enough. The

amount of energy which is required at certain stages... We could have

handled the situation with a fraction of that energy. But

sometimes people talk about national character or temperament... I don't

know if it's reality or perception. I don't know. One newspaper in

Nigeria says the country has become a failed state. Do you use that

view? I have use that expression myself full of I must be careful

because I don't know what records you have. There are times that I

feel Nigeria is a failed state but it is not beyond redemption. What

has to change? It has to happen on multiple levels. We have an

immediate crisis on our hands and one thing that I don't want is in

Nigeria there to be any language of evasion to say that these are

long`term causes, yes, we know that, we are not stupid. These are the

moves of planning for the future. Yes, all that should be taking place

right now. But at this moment, it is not just a symbolic moment. It is

the definition. I believe that the Nigerian nation is about to be

defined 1`way or the other. If we do not find those children, then for

me, Nigeria is a hopeless state. Let's all sit down and decide that

Nigeria is too much to manage and that it's easier, for instance, to

manage a crisis of this kind or even to prevent it if we were a smaller

nation. It's a time to speak very frankly. As its future as a country,

it's now the centenary. You saying that it has a future as a single

country or is Nigeria's best hope to recognise its differences and to

allow it to slowly separate? I would say that we are poised on the edge

of the knife. Most nations go through this from time to time. It's

not unique to Nigeria. The importance is for Nigerians to

recognise this as test, as perhaps the most critical test over and

above even the civil war of unity. Unity is just a word. We are talking

about the existence of humanity within a nation space. In fact, I

hardly use the word nation any more. I prefer the term nation space,

especially for artificial spaces like ours. But that space is getting

smaller. It is getting smaller, more fragile, more estimable every moment

that we live. It is getting more and more questionable. But the

conference, I hope, which should have taken place some years before

and which we attempted even to install at the risk of being called

national traitors, I think that moment is now. A direct question

with a simple answer. Do you believe in your heart that Nigeria was to

exist 100 years from now as it has existed in the last 100 years? The

structure of Nigeria may change drastically emanating from that

conference or we will say that the British did a number on us and we

have not been able to get over it. Thank you.

In general, blustery showers on Friday but equally, some spells of

sunshine. We begin on a reasonably mild note with low pressure