Mohamoud Nur - Mayor of Mogadishu, Dec 2010 - Mar 2014 HARDtalk

Now on BBC News, it's time for HARDtalk.

Welcome to HARDtalk, with me, Tim Franks. Most of us probably do not

associate local government with racing pulses and grave danger, but

few local government jobs are like the Mayor of Mogadishu 's. Mohamoud

Nur had that post for more than three years, trying to improve life

in one of the most violent and corrupt and rundown capital cities

in the world. So, what persuaded him to leave home life in London to take

up the post, with the benefit of distance now, what hope does he hold

out for Somalia? Mohamoud Nur, welcome to HARDtalk.

Let me take you back to 2010, you are at home in London. You are

helping to run, or, you own an Internet cafe, you are also involved

in a Somali group, and the president of Somalia calls you and asks you to

be the Mayor of Mogadishu? Why did he choose you? Well, he chose me

because I `` he knows what I did, when I was trying to dislocate icky

`` Ethiopian application in Somalia. I was one of the key organisers, I

was responsible, all of the world at the time, the Alliance consisted of

Somalia was all over the world. And, parliamentarians who refused to

accept the occupation of Ethiopia. And, the Islamic court, I was key in

that. He knew what I could do. It would be perfect for me to work in

Mogadishu. Well, perfect, in the sense that you are interested in

Somali politics. I guess that you also had to take account of the fact

that you had a wife, you had six children. You had a business. Didn't

you think that this perhaps may not be the job for you? Actually, I

refused to times, I rejected the proposal three times, they sent me

individuals to convince me to take the job, I called my brothers, I

have four of them in different parts of the world. We met up and

discussed whether it was wise to take the job or not. We agreed that

I should not take it, I discussed it with my wife, we agreed that I

should not take it. Later, at some time, the pressure was too hard.

Friends convinced me that I should do something. So, you went without

your family, this was late 2010, what sort of place did you find?

Well, it was not a city. It was an instruction, dark, dirty, a filthy

city. People were not moving after 5pm, there were no lights. The

filth, the garbage, it accumulated all over the place. And, nobody was

taking care of it, not for the last two years. You couldn't call it a

city at the time. It was a death city, like that. It was also a place

that did not only have a bit of rubbish and street lighting that was

bad, it was also extremely violent? Absolutely, yes. At that time, the

government in Mogadishu consisted of 17 districts, the government was in

control of five, the rest was in the hands of al`Shabab. You could tell,

in the hotel I was staying in, there was about 300 metres away `` they

were about 300 metres away. If they fired, they could hit someone in the

hotel. How did you get around the city as the matter? I was born to be

an activist, I was a government support, not depending on the

resources of the government. I was depending on mobilising people. I

saw that al`Shabab were controlling the media completely. `` for that

matter. Even the president was not able to respond, everyone was

afraid, is a direct attack from al`Shabab. Then, I remembered on the

first day, I organised a rally against al`Shabab. When I spoke

about al`Shabab and the atrocities they were committing, the Minister

of formation called me, he was a friend from London. He said, you are

putting yourself on the spot and in a dangerous position. You know, you

should not do that. I said, well, it would be better for them to kill me

when I am fighting, rather than to kill me while I am afraid of them.

Did they threaten you directly? Many times. Many times they attempted to

exploit my car. So, three times... Twice I wasn't in it, and then the

car exploded when I was far away. I knew that. The day I die, nobody can

bring it back. That is my conviction. I often hear devout

Muslims saying that sort of thing, that they are fatalistic about the

day they die. I returned what I said before, you are a husband, a

father... You must have thought, you have a choice here? Do I really want

to do this? If I don't do it, who will? For example, I'm not expecting

people to fix the country. I have to play my part, I remember when I

decided to take the job, called my wife and said, look, I will take it,

in way. You may hear that I have been assassinated a number of times

`` anyway. You have to prepare yourselves on the children that way.

I never put in my mind that I will come out of any life with this job.

I never expected it. When I go to do my work, I don't know if I come back

or not. There was one street that I came down, there was a bus. And five

officials have been assassinated. There's go into the business of

local government, when you arrived, as the mayor, what was your

operating budget? Nothing. There was no budget. There were $725 in the

account. `` $125? $125? Not $125,000? Yes. They used to work

this place. But, there was no work at all. There was no willpower,

nothing at all. It was a completely deserted area. Nothing to pay

salaries? Nothing. So, I understand that you negotiated an income from

the ports. And with that, what did you manage to do? One of the

conditions with the job, I said to the President that I would not take

direct responsibility, I have to have a budget I can work with. And,

I suggested that I could get a percentage of the revenue from the

sea port. The president, the Prime Minister, they accepted that. They

gave 15% of the region, and then that money comes after four months.

They promised they would give me $100,000 to start, that came in

instalments, $30,000, then 1000, then $50,000. I negotiated with

public transport owners and co`operatives and Disney's

individuals. Eventually, we would get money. `` and business

individuals. Then, we could get the fuel, and I would pay back some

time. With the money and the income, you manage to do things like get

rubbish collections, street lighting... All of that is important

in local government. But you are dealing with a place that is awash

with guns, extremely violent, extremely dangerous. Dare I say it,

you were concentrating? You may not have been responsible for security

in Mogadishu, but you were concentrating on the bits on the

side? It was rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic? This was

windowdressing? Yes. The city was very dangerous. It was challenging.

In the terms that you can tell, but it was my job to make those five

districts so far, no one was taking responsibility of doing that. ``

safer. I had a meeting with the five district commissioners, and I got 15

people from each district to collect information and to report if

al`Shabab whether or not. I was paying security, I spent a lot of

money there, it has improved. In three periods of that time, I had to

remove garbage from the city, then put lights up, and improve the

security of the districts. You had strong things to say about security,

earlier in the year, there were bombings in the capital, and

afterwards you said of them, you were surprised that al`Shabab

members were arrested, they should be eliminated on the spot, this was

after they focused on government officials. They should be stoned to

death. This group, they are ruthless. That is the reason for

extrajudicial killings? It isn't, for example, if you spot al`Shabab

in action, fighting, shooting, then, you shoot them. That's what I'm

saying. You should them. Don't capture them, they will kill another

person. Do what they are. If someone is involved in a firefight, that's

one thing, but you are talking about al`Shabab members in a general way.

Firstly, it is very difficult to spot. Who is al`Shabab, and who

isn't. Secondly, if someone is not firing a gun, how can you say they

deserved to die? They deserve to die because they kill innocent

civilians. They kill doctors, the military, civilians, they don't

discriminate women and children from others. They do something, and the

only way you can manage it, I know that you are in a European

environment, and you vote in a European environment, but here, we

have people killing innocent civilians, killing soft targets, the

mosque, the markets, hotels. And on the people, they attack them. They

don't differentiate. You are inciting the public to go after

these people? Mobs should stone them to death? The reason Al`Shabab get

out is because the people go against them? It was when the African union

troops went after them? Not only that, but they realised it was a

hostile environment, before, it was a fish in the sea, but when people

went against them, and informed police or security, then, they were

not able to stay. It is one thing to oppose people, it is one thing to

inform on militants, but another to say that these people should be

killed on the spot? These people are killing innocent civilians, they

deserve to die as they are killing innocent civilians. Do you think

that, in your time in Mogadishu, it became a safer city? Yes. Despite

all of the evidence to the contrary? It became a relatively safer city, I

have to say relatively, it improved every aspect of the city. It

improved it businesswise, development, that improved. It

became cleaner, lighter, people came back, the expectations of people

were high. It is not easy, it was, not only the material, but we were

fighting psychologically to change the minds of the people, and the

mindset of the people cannot change without showing some facts. Why do

you think it is then that al`Shabab seem able to launch attacks closer

and closer to high`value targets in Mogadishu? Seemingly, at will?

Because our security and solutions are not strong enough. The reason

for that is what? The government had not put enough time and effort to

build stronger institutions. They are the ones that do something. It

is not individuals, but they can do something, but it is limited. The

solution, that is the police, in those institutions, and then they

can do something. How would you describe it? Is it infiltration by

al`Shabab? Corruption? A callous lack of responsibility, a lack of

confusion... That is all included. How do you stop al`Shabab in the

long`term? Two things. They are praying and fighting without reason.

We have to do something, we have to open opportunities for them, create

jobs and training, these things. And then remove the young people. They

are the ones committing atrocities. Remove that, and drive the pool that

they are recruiting. The other big group, the guys, they are not ready

to die. They won't do it. If you drive the pool that they are

recruiting, then, they will not fight. What about driving them into

a negotiation zone? Peace talks? They are not overwhelmingly foreign

fighters in al`Shabab, it is a Somali movement essentially? It is

certainly within Somalia. Don't the government of Somalia need, in the

end, to talk to them? But these people are not wanting a

political solution. They are dreaming to change it to an Islamic

state. They want to change America and China to Islamic states. You

think they have global ambitions? Yes. Their ambition is out of

Somalia, so they won't accept it. The best way to deal it... There are

three groups. The top group is no more than ten. The middle group are

footsoldiers. We have to remove the footsoldiers. It has to be that

easy. Some people I've been talking to in the run`up to this interview

have said that part of the inherent problem with Somalia is that it is

not, sadly, condition for statehood. It doesn't have a long history of a

strong state, either from before independence or after independence.

Inevitably, what is going to have to happen in Somalia is that there be a

decentralisation of power. Already the government doesn't run much

beyond Mogadishu and there has to be, even if people like you don't

like it, more of a reliance on clans to govern Somalia. What would you

say to that? The UK used to be a clan system before. Scotland was

divided into clans, Wales was divided into clans, the English were

clans. They came out and made a statehood. All the Europeans were

like that. All other countries were like that. We are no different. You

don't have an inherent problem with a clan `based system? No. The

problem is that the leadership created enemies amongst the Somalian

clans. Politicians created these conflicts. If we find good

leadership, fair leadership, a leader who can lead the people, then

I think all of these clans can be brought together. You were quoted a

few years ago in an interview with a Kenyan writer saying, I am a

self`made man and have no sympathy for cronies. It sounds like you've

developed your views? `` for clanism. Yes, I grew up in and

government institution. `` in a government. I don't have any

sympathy is with any clans. But you say they could have a role but as

long as they aren't set against each other? Yes. Can you explain to me

why you were sacked earlier this year? You have to understand, the

former person who appointed me, this is a new person with his own team,

maybe he wanted a person from his team. Did you ask why? I didn't.

Really? He rang you up and said, you are sacked, you didn't ask why?

Merry Mac he called me and said, I want to be a member of the Cabinet.

I said, in what capacity? Is a minister. I said, sorry, I won't be

a minister. Why? I don't want it. I explained that the Cabinet, the way

it functions, I can't do anything. Forgive me for asking you the same

question again but why not? I have a lot of initiatives. But when you are

in a Cabinet in Somalia, a cabinet minister does not have his own

ministry. It sounds like you are a team player. You like being in

charge of your own area? I have been in Somali politics for many years. I

have worked with five prime ministers. I know what's going on. I

know I can't do anything in the Cabinet. In the Constitution, what

is written is the minister will do what the minister tells him to do.

What will happen if the minister is ignorant? That's what I mean about

being a team player. You advice, don't you? Was it

the fact that you don't have a high regard for this president? No. I

have a high regard for the president. But he did not give me

proper justification, why he believed me of my position. He gave

in a recent? So you have a high regard for him but he didn't have a

high regard for you? It's up to him. I can't speak for him. Do you agree

with the view of the US director of national intelligence, who earlier

this year described this Somali government as being beset by

persistent political infighting, weak leadership from the president

and ill`equipped government institutions? I agree on two

points. Weak institutions and infighting, I agree with that. I

don't know about the leadership. He must have a view. You saw it close

up. `` you must have. I don't want to criticise the government was I

was in it. You are no longer in it. People are very interested to know

what somebody on the inside would think about the state of leadership

in Somalia. If there are weak institutions and if there is

political infighting, what's that mean? They are lacking someone who

can create a coherent team. That's what's missing. So, the president

isn't doing a good job? I cannot... I won't say that. But it is the

clear inference? You can extract from that whatever message you want.

Do you have presidential ambitions? Well, I am a Somali national, I have

the right to have an ambition and I have an ambition but I don't know

where that ambition will take in. That sounds like you are thinking

seriously about running for president in 2016.

I wouldn't say that but I have an ambition to fix this country and I

believe... How do you think you can do that? I can do that if I find

people who can work with us, but I can work with, if I find people who

have the same strategy and mission, the problem is this Cabinet. They

have the same vision. Each one is working in a different direction.

There is no coherent direction. AU talking to people about a political

movement? A political party? Yes. I'm here in London, I went to

Toronto, I had a meeting with the Somali community in Toronto, I went

to Minneapolis, I had a meeting with the Somali community. I'm going back

to Mogadishu. I'm speaking to people. I want to fix this country.

You think you can do that? Given how deep the problems are, violence,

come `` corruption, poverty. You spent three and a half years trying

to deal with it. Maybe made a little bit of progress. Huge amount still

to do. You think you can do it? Yes, I believe I can do it. One of

the main problems that the Somali government didn't make progress in

in 2004 is better to build a strong constitution. `` institutions. But

it also cultures. It's a culture of violence, a culture of

fundamentalist Islamist, a culture of corruption. `` Islamism. But

accept culture of corruption but Somalis are not fundamentalist. This

is a foreign idea that came to Somalia in 1989. So I can't accept

that. We can still build a nation together. Corruption, yes, that's

one of the problems that hampers the development of Somalia. What does

your wife think about you becoming president of Somalia? She don't

like. We try to persuade her? If I decide to do that I will convince

her. The same as when I became mayor, she didn't like it. My

brothers were against it. But when I look through a small window, I feel

a need to something, I may change something. Thank you for being on

HARDtalk. Thank you very much. It's likely to be the hottest day of

the year so far, with temperatures expected to reach 27 Celsius later

this afternoon. Those high temperatures across southern and

eastern parts of England.