Chris Packham - Naturalist and wildlife filmmaker HARDtalk


Chris Packham - Naturalist and wildlife filmmaker

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Welcome to HARDTalk. I am Stephen Sackur.

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Today I am in the heart of the English countryside. Habitat which

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is rich in wildlife, but for how much longer? The impact of human

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beings here, as in so much of the world, is putting enormous pressure

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on natural ecosystems. My guest today is Chris Packham, one of

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Britain's best`known naturalist and campaigners for wildlife protection.

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Is it time to radically rethink man's relationship with the natural

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world? This is a beautiful place to say

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welcome to HARDTalk. Thank you. This is where I feel most comfortable.

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That is why I wanted to start here. It is in classic southern English

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woodland where you find your passion for wildlife. Yes, I was fortunate

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in that I lived in an age where parents allowed their kids to go

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freely in the woods. I used to come home, dump my school bag and be in

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this sort of environment. It was here that passion for wildlife was

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ignited by some of the creatures I shared my space with. I find beauty

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in individual species. And individual creatures? One of the

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things you have spoken of as a defining moment was when you found a

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very small kestrel, and you adopted it and took it home. You wanted to

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raise it yourself. But, in a way, that is a problematic story because

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you were trying to possess something which was truly wild. Looking back

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on it, do you think that instinct was wrong? No, not as a child, but

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it is not something I would do now. That relationship was at 14, at the

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point where, I think, that was leaving me. The relationship was

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intense, and it sealed a deep`rooted passion for, not only birds, but

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life. The kestrel died, I lost it. It was heartbreaking to say the

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least. Was it one of the most emotionally engaging moments of your

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life? It shaped my whole life. That was a defining moment. Not only the

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animal itself, but the social interactions that formed around me

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having it. It was a transitional point. Subsequent to that, I have

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not had that desire to hold things close to me. That is part of

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maturing as a naturalist. Then I got binoculars and could satisfy my

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curiosity by watching things, rather than by having to touch them. I

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struggle with that emotional outlook that other people have. I am a

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pragmatist and a scientist. As a consequence, I am dispassionate

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about what I see. If I see predation happening, I do not feel the need to

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intervene. I do not stop an animal killing another. That process is

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part of the greater beauty. The beauty is not in the animal, it is

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in this, the system that is functional and sustainable and

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dynamic, and only exists because of those harmonious relationships and

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interactions of the species. This is the greater beauty. It is not the

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buzzard, it is not a rabid, the damsel fly `` Rabbit. It is the

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ecology. I want to talk more about sustainability and the

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responsibilities you see that sit with us.

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Let us talk more about homosapiens' relations with the animal kingdom.

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We are member of the animal kingdom, it is not a separate thing. A good

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point. We are one of the great apes. You have made a very strong

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stand against different forms of hunting, and yet hunting is one of

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the most basic ways in which human beings have always related to other

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animals. Why are you so against it? I am against it if it is

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unsustainable. That is my point. I am not against hunting, shooting and

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fishing, if it is sustainable. That is where the conflict arises. As our

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own population has grown, and our desire to continue to hunt, in many

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it is no longer sustainable. `` in many aspects. I struggle a little

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with people who want to kill things for pleasure. I see a degree of

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psychopathy in that. You are shifting the ground. Fox`hunting,

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politically, for many years has been controversial. Now there are laws

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outlawing it. There is some debate in the current government about

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whether these laws should be reviewed. But nobody argues that

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fox`hunting led to the fox becoming endangered or close to extinction.

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It was all about pleasure. You began by saying if an animal wasn't

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threatened, you were not against it. I presumed you meant hunting for

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food, to eat it. Fox`hunting, while described as the unspeakable in

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pursuit of the inedible, that is a very good description. Killing for

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pleasure will always trouble me. I don't understand it. I have no

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problem with them shooting pheasants which are reared for that purpose,

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but when they shoot woodcock, which is in decline in the UK, but it

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continues to be shot because it is classed as a game bird, I see an

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issue there. Many species plummeting in number are protected, but this

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one seems to be exonerated because for many hundreds of years it has

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been shot. I would argue that those years are redundant. This is the

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pertinent point where we are controlling that environment. If

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there are no longer enough woodcock to shoot, we have to desist. But

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this gets to the point of your critics seeing you much more

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preoccupied with the rights of animals than the rights and

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well`being of humans. For example, the argument of those who support

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fox`hunting and grouse shooting and other forms of sport hunting is that

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those activities and the economic benefits they bring to local

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communities in rural areas are the absolute foundation of countryside

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communities. You threaten livelihoods in rural areas. I am a

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firm supporter of the need for us to live in a sustainable landscape,

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with a secure economic future for those who live there, including the

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shooting fraternity. As a consequence, I have nothing against

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responsible shooting which is sustainable. In grouse moors, you

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have begun a campaign against the shooting of the small bird, the

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grouse, in the uplands of North Yorkshire and Scotland. But it has

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been said that if you get your way, local communities will die. Grouse

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shooting as a type of shooting can be disastrous for the environment.

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They are kept at abnormally high numbers, which drove it to prosper.

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It has a negative aspect in terms of other species of birds, and the

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people who perpetrate it are intolerant of predators. One of the

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reasons we have only a handful of certain raptor species, notably hen

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harriers and golden eagle, is that they are persecuted by these people.

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Illegally and ruthlessly. If they were to sort that problem out, we

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would not be gunning for them. How far are you prepared to push these

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campaigns? This year you spent weeks in Malta, determined to try to stop

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the thousands of hunters who go there to shoot quail and

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turtledoves. It is a tradition they have had for many years. You got

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into a pretty serious confrontation with local hunters. At one point you

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said, if they shoot me, I don't care. How far are you prepared to

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push this? I pick my fights because I think I am right, not because I

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think I can win. I am not a bully, and I am not a coward. I think I am

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right to oppose these shootings. Those birds are not Maltese, or

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British, but 17 species of British birds, including the turtledove

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which has declined 90% since the 1970s, are still being shot on

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Malta, and I do not see that as being sustainable. However long it

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has been going on. But sometimes, the way you handle your campaigns,

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actually entrenches the enmity of the hunting community. You arguably

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make them more determined than ever to confront you and continue the

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practice. That is an unfortunate human response, the resistance to

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change. Unfortunately, we are all resistant, sometimes, to change. But

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we have to raise the debate and continue to create dialogue which

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allows us to make positive change. The problem with Malta is that in

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the past, when there were fewer people there, and a greater number

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of birds migrating, the practices they were partaking in, for food,

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were fine. But the population of these birds has been declining

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across Europe, and the hunters in Malta has increased. There were 80

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per square kilometre shooting, that is the highest density of anywhere

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on earth. It is not tenable any more, and it is illegal all over

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Europe, so why are Malta allowed to get away with it when we have seen

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that it is the wrong thing to do? Here is one thing that puzzles me

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about some of your campaigns. On Malta, you were very concerned about

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the turtledove population, which matters to you, and yet you have

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another side of your message to the world, which says we have got to

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stop being so obsessed with the saving of single species, single

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kinds of creature, we have to understand that the best thing we

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can do and where we must invest most of our effort is on the big picture

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stuff, saving the most valuable ecosystems in the world, whether it

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is the Amazon Rainforest or the Kalahari desert, whatever. Which is

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more important to you? Saving single species or having a much broader

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view of what wildlife protection should be about?

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broader view. Sometimes we choose individual species as flagships and

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generate icons so we can motivate people's passions.

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What about the panda? Yes. The panda is a bit of a legacy

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from the past. When conservation got going in the 1970s, we had

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campaigns, and it was about those individual species. Save the whale,

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the tiger, the panda. We have now changed our tune behind the scenes.

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We might wave the flag for those species but we are thinking about

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the broader environment we can look after, once we have motivated

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people. You do not fly the flag for the

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panda. You say it has gone down an evolutionary cul`de`sac. You have

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said, we should let them go and let them become extinct.

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Yes, I will continue to pick on the panda because it's an easy target

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for me in the hope that people will conduct an audit within the spending

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of conservation, that is why I chose that animal. I feel a

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disproportionate amount of money, time and effort is wasted upon the

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panda. We have to accept that extinction, under extreme pressure

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generated by humans, is part and parcel of humans. It's not always a

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bad thing. I have nothing against pandas, I would like to keep the

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panda, but I am asking whether we can afford to keep the panda at the

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expense of the bigger picture you mentioned. And I would argue that by

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raising that debate, it was a creative process. We have managed to

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get people to think carefully about spending the small pots of money

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that conservation has. The panda is in really deep trouble.

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But we also know that tigers are in trouble. Rhinos are in trouble. Are

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we to say to all of these wonderful creatures that their time on this

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planet is up? No, it is a case`by`case basis.

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There is still available habitat for rhino. There is still available

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habitat for tigers. There is not habitat for pandas in China. They

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are slow to reproduce, the populations are fragmented, we

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cannot get them to breed or reintroduce them into the wild.

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It raises a point about zoos. So many of the world's top zoos are

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somewhat obsessed with breeding pandas, partly because it brings

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in... It is not partly, it is wholly, it

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brings in a huge footfall and allows them to profit from that.

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Are you saying that breeding pandas is something that zoos and those who

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care about the natural world should stop doing? China is the only

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country to have bred pandas naturally. Every other country has

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used artificial insemination because they can't generate conditions where

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the pandas are happy enough to breed. The reason they persist with

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this is because pandas are a fabulous draw for people. The reason

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they need to breed them is simple. After a couple of years, the

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footfall falls off. They are the most expensive animal on earth to

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keep in captivity. It costs five times more to keep a panda than an

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elephant. That's the second most expensive. If people do not flock to

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see a cute little panda cub, that zoo is out of pocket. Drastically.

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Remember, they are paying the Chinese government many millions of

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pounds to rent those pandas. The zoos in the West have no choice but

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to try and breed them. It is an economic issue. Stephen, it is not a

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conservation issue. If a zoo in the West gets a panda, it will never go

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back into the wild. No panda had ever been successfully put back into

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the wilds of China, not least one that has been born in other parts of

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the world. That may apply to other species as

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well. I am just wondering that, as you talk about zoos with cynicism,

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whether you see there is any point at all?

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There is a tremendous point to zoos. Those pandas in the zoos are

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phenomenal ambassadors for endangered wildlife.

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Is that what zoos are, then? A performing piece of diplomacy on

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behalf of the natural world, which of course they do not represent in

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any real way at all? I think zoo animals should be used

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as ambassadors for their wild counterparts. They are there to

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engage people so those people develop a deep affinity to wild

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animals. And are educated to look after their wild counterparts. I

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remember going to a zoo when I was 11 and coming face`to`face with a

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tiger for the first time, and that image of that animal is as fresh in

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my mind as it was when I encountered it.

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And that means that you can justify that these animals are kept in small

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enclosures... No. In a way that, frankly, leaves them

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with a low quality of life. Of course, I cannot justify that. We

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should constantly strive to update the conditions, given the knowledge

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that we acquire. There are certain animals that should never be kept in

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captivity but we continue to do it. The one essential thing is that zoos

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must, must embrace their educational remit. If these animals are just

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used as a circus, as a gallery of life, then that is shameful and

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outdated. Dolphin exhibits, even if they are the best ones we see,

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dolphins are still leaping out of pools and jumping through hoops.

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What about the preoccupation in many parts of the world with keeping

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pets? You talk a lot about resources. I have some figures here.

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People in Britain spend ?15 billion a year on their household pets. You

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have talked about the lack of resources going into wildlife

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protection and conservation. Think what you could do with even a small

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chunk of that money. Do you think it is time to say to people around the

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world, think about what it costs to keep pets? Think about the natural

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world beyond your own household. Maybe it is time for people to be

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weaned off this keeping of pets. No, not at all. I keep dogs and I

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can tell you that we have co`evolved with dogs. We argue about when they

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were first domesticated from wolves and during that period of living

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with animals, every human society all over the world, we have

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co`evolved with them. `` with these animals. We are genetically

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predisposed to like or understand dogs. The dogs have co`evolved with

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us. That is all fine and dandy but you

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are sitting in a beautiful area with two dogs who seem to be very happy,

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wandering around. The fact is that people in urban environments keep

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dogs in small places, sometimes locked up all day. Is it not time to

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say that this is unacceptable? Where I am heading with this is that

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we have an affinity for this animal because we have lived with it for

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this amount of time and I think that one of the reasons it is beneficial

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to maintain that is that if we learn to live with animals and respect

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their lives, those attitudes towards other animal life will rub off. I am

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sure that a lot of people who opposed fox`hunting were motivated

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to care about foxes because, in an abstract way, they care about their

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dogs. They respect other life. I have watched you interact with

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your own dogs and you do seem to regard them as friends.

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They are, they are companions. They are dumb animals.

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They are far from dumb. Your animal seems to be confused.

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Not at all! They do not talk to me in our language but they communicate

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with me through their posture, their attitude, their voice. I mean, they

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have a repertoire of different barks which I can identify. I know what

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those barks mean. At a rudimentary level, you might consider, they

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communicate effectively with me. You get a more satisfactory relationship

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out of your dog than a fellow human? None of my dogs have lied to me or

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let me down. I have a different relationship with them. It is not as

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complex as a human, but I will tell you something. There was a lot more

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security there than there is with most human relationships, and I do

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not think that that is something I should be embarrassed about. The

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vast majority of dog owners in the UK probably feel the same way.

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Many environmentalists and conservationists on this programme

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strike me as having a bleak view of where this is going. Are you

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depressed? No, we're too intelligent... We do need a kick up

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the backside before we get organised. Unfortunately, we respond

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best to catastrophes. We need something to shock us before we act.

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Equally, we are moving towards an age where we will be able to elect

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decision`makers who are better informed to make decisions of an

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environmental nature and I equally think that we are moving towards an

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age where the economists and ecologists will have a better degree

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of parity, and when that happens, we will have the intelligence to shape

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our impact on the planet in a positive way, and we will continue

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to be here. Very sadly, in the interim period, we will lose some of

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our sexier species, so I am glad to be here campaigning. At least I have

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a rhino, a tiger and a panda to argue about. Chris Packham, we have

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to end there but thank you for being on HARDTalk.

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It is a pleasure, thank you for the invitation.

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