Elias Bou Saab, Lebanon's Education Minister HARDtalk


Elias Bou Saab, Lebanon's Education Minister

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The fallout from the conflict in Syria is threatening to

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destabilise one of the Middle East's most delicate nations, Lebanon.

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It hosts around 1.3 million Syrian refugees, more per capita than any

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This places huge pressure on its people and government,

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as well as adding more strain on its fragile sectarian mix.

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My guest today is Elias Bou Saab, Lebanon's education minister.

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What is the impact of the Syrian conflict on Lebanon

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Elias Bou Saab, welcome to HARDtalk. Were you surprised by the unexpected

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announcement by Russia that it was ending its military operations in

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Syria and withdrawing? Well, I wasn't surprised, especially as we

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know they won't going to continue to fight Daesh or ISIS alongside the

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rest of the world, and that means they will have a presents to keep on

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bombing ISIS. The pullout decision is probably a step towards telling

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the world that now we should move into a political solution in Syria.

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We should start supporting either side, the push for a political

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solution. President Putin said they had largely met their objectives. Is

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he right? What you that objective was, keep Assad in power? We don't

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see it that way in Lebanon. We have an enemy called ISIS, Daesh, and it

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is not a coincidence that this enemy is the enemy of Bashar al-Assad, of

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the Russians and also is the enemy of the West, so that we are all

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fighting the same enemy. If they push them away, pushed Daesh away

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from certain regions, I think that what President Putin is talking

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about. But they are still there. Islamic State, Daesh. Right. They

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were making progress at a certain point, towards the Lebanese border

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even. They took over most of the parts in Iraq, most of the northern

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parts. I think the Russian interference did really stop that

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and turn the equation around. But they are still there. Now that they

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have withdrawn arguably they could start re- consolidating their

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position, couldn't they? If the West keeps Daesh strong and if they

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decide to not participate alongside everybody else to keep on attacking

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those extremists, those terrorists that are not a threat to Syria but

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the region and the world. And Bashar al-Assad, keep him in power? In the

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opposition says he can't be part of any transition. Let me be honest

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with you. This is a country of democracy. We all want democracy.

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Let's ensure that there is a proper election in Syria and let the Syrian

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people decide who they want in power. But let's make sure there's a

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proper election in and leave it -- in Syria and leave it to the Syrian

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people to decide. We've tried to impart democracy on a country and we

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saw the results. We cannot do that by force. We need to set the stage

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for proper election, there are elections, and let the people decide

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what they want. Lebanon, it is five years since the Syrian war began and

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Lebanon has paid a heavy price. You have 1.3 million registered refugees

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with the United Nations, but arguably your government says that

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you have more than that, plus the 500,000 Palestinian refugees. Now

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with the Syrian refugees is the burden too great for Lebanon? It is.

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Lebanon is a country of 4 million people. When you say 1.5 refugees

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after the Syrian crisis and 500,000 from Palestine before, that's 2

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million refugees in Lebanon. Out of a country of 4 million this is quite

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a lot. This is not something Lebanon can handle on its own. Lebanon has

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its own crisis financially and economically. We all know the

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situation. Our education system, our health-care system, everything is

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suffering. Add to it everything we were going through on top. These

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refugees, the crisis... I once described it as a Harry Kane or

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earthquake that is ongoing for the past five years. -- hurricane.

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Usually the rest of the world helps after an earthquake or hurricane.

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They go to say, let us deal with the aftermath. In Lebanon we are leaving

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this earthquake on a daily basis. What do you say to the Europeans

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when EU was arguing over what resettling 160,000 Syrian refugees

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in Europe. I understand their fear but at the same time I will tell

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them there's one thing we can do, I heard on HARDtalk before many

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arguments from Turkey and others about how to deal with it. There's

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only one way. I disagree with what they are saying, share the refugees

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and distribute them around Europe, that's not the right thing. The only

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right thing to do is to make sure we have a political solution in Syria

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and stop the refugees leaving the country and make sure they can

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safely return home. Everybody agrees that but how quickly can be done and

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how are the refugees handled in the meantime? You say your country is

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hosting this great number and finding that it is adding to much

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pressure. Why isn't Lebanon party to the 1951 refugee Convention? Why

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have you not signed up to that? Because that would assist greatly in

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your receiving assistance that you need. You know, Lebanon is very

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different in the Middle East. Lebanon, with different religions

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and groups, a lot of complexity politically and other ways. For us

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to take on refugees and change the balance, that would change the

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entire country and this is something that many people are feeling. If you

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want to put it that way, the Christians in Lebanon is to be 50%

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of the country, even 60% at some points. Now they are down to 35%, if

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not less. If you take on the refugees and deal with the situation

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like any other treaty, the Palestinians before and now the

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Syrians, the country will change. That's the big fear. The Foreign

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Minister, who, like you is also a member of Lebanon's Christian

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community, as the large number of Syrian refugees is rapidly changing

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the demographics and it could present an existential crisis for

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Lebanon, because they are by and large the Syrians coming in Sunni

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Muslims and they are just one part of the sectarian make-up in Lebanon.

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But doesn't that sound a bit mean? You are saying, we don't want these

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Sunni Muslims coming in our midst but they will drown out the number

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of Christians? That's what we hear some European saying. Not only us as

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Christians are saying that. Even the Lebanese Muslim Sunnis and Shiites

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as agreed at Lebanon cannot be changed demographically. But that's

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what the Europeans are saying. Some Hungarians and Babaji and are

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saying, we don't want Muslims in our midst and it doesn't sound very

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generous, especially when Syria posted a lot of refugees from the

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region, including you yourself. You were there in the early 80s when

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there were problems in Lebanon. Correct. In 1982 during the Israeli

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invasion I have to go to Syria. And you were received there. And the

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Syrians received many refugees. Absolutely. But it was organised.

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They gave us passes to stay and then we returned back home. We did not

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stay in the country, none of us. Now the situation is different. It is

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unlike in Europe. In Lebanon that power is shared among those three

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religions. If we change that... That the Muslim Sunnis and Shiites and

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the Christians? Yes. Basically now also the constitution is we have

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equal power in the government, so we have 50% of the Parliament Muslims

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and 50% Christians and 50% Muslims. That will change. If that changes,

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the entire constitution should be changed. Now there is a big fear.

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The Christians left Iraq. They left Syria, because of Daesh and ISIS,

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all of the horrible things. The only Christian country that is left is

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Lebanon. If we do the same to Lebanon, that means we are changing

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the entire demography of the region. Could it erupt into... We saw the

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terrible civil war in Lebanon in the 90s. Could this reignite tensions in

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the country and upset this balance? For sure, it was Lebanon now can

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only survive by accepting one another. Accepting the situation as

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it is, saying that we have shared power and we need to continue living

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side by side, Muslims and Christians, and remain as an Arab

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country and work accordingly. But why can't you say we are all Arabs,

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it doesn't matter what religion you are. Surely you are reinforcing

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these kind of divisions by saying we are Arab Christians, we don't want

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Arab Muslims. Why do you just say we are all Muslims? It is easily said

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for anybody in the West. An easy thing for them to say, why don't we

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say that? I explain a little bit. The Muslims and Christians... The

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equal power that we share in Lebanon is unique in the region. Lebanon is

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the only country with a Christian president, although we don't have

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one for the past two years. You mentioned that. At the recent London

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conference that Lebanon attended, you asked for about $11 billion over

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the next five years, loans and straightforward aid in order for you

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to cope with the refugees. But people are looking at the way the

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Syrian refugees are being treated in Lebanon and you know there is some

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discontent about the way they are being received. I disagree. The

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Syrians are treated in Lebanon like the Lebanese. We open the doors for

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all Syrians, we open our schools for all Syrians, we open our homes for

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all Syrians, without even any help from the West or anybody else. The

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Lebanese people receive the Syrian people without organisation, without

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planning. This may take the country down sooner or later economically,

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financially and any other way. For that reason the government has said

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that we need to put a plan in place before we break down and if we break

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down it will not be limited to Lebanon. That would affect the

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region and eventually you will see the refugees losing hope, having no

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opportunity, no future and they will end up travelling and coming to

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Europe and other places. Let me explain what I meant by the

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criticisms. Human watch report in January cold, I just want to be

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treated like a person, talked about the fact that there are entry

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requirements for Syrians coming into Lebanon who wants to stay. They have

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to register and these fees for registration are extremely high for

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-- extremely high. This has driven a lot of the Syrians underground, got

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they don't have the means in order to register, or they need to sponsor

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and they can't do that. Human Rights Watch says this is really pushing

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refugees underground and this has led to their exploitation, either in

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the workforce, because they are working illegally, or by land

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routes. That is not accurate, let me tell you why. The government decided

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to put these measures after we reached over 1.5 million refugees,

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when we set Lebanon can no longer handle the situation. This was

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implemented by newcomers. We said, how can we stop... This was in

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January last year? Yes. Like any other country, any refugee, don't

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they need to register somewhere? The government should not have an

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account of who and where -- who is where? That's what we tried to do.

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Prior to that it was purely chaotic and we don't know where the refugees

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are, where they are living, what they're doing, what are the exact

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numbers. For that reason the government did what we are saying.

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Put that aside. After the London conference, that was hosted in

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February to support the refugees crisis in the region, Lebanon has

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come up with a paper and we said we will be looking at ways to

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facilitate the livelihood of those refugees. Because they can't work.

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They have to sign a pledge to say they can't work. Unless they get a

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proper work permit. Sponsored by Lebanese? Which you will find

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anywhere. If anyone wants to work in the UK, they don't... But these are

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people fleeing. A lawyer from an NGO defending civil rights and liberties

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as many Syrians want to but can't acquire any legal status. They don't

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have valid identification. She says Paul refugees in particular card

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signed in the rental contracts and she says many Syrians stay in camps,

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how can they provide the documents? And she says many stay indoors for

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days to avoid the police, many are paid -- pay hundreds of dollars for

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forged -- forged passports and she says at least a are arrested each

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month. Those paying British money do need passports in Lebanon because

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Syrians to meet passports. Let me tell you why they need passports,

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because we need them to go to Turkey and from there to go to Europe. That

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has nothing to do with Lebanon. This is not the Lebanon situation we are

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dealing with. Also, most of the workforce in Europe, by far they are

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Syrians and they are working illegally and we know that and we

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are letting it happen. Turning a blind eye? Because historically it

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has been like that, even prior to the crisis. We depend a lot on the

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workforce, on the manpower, from Syria. Why not let them work

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legally? You are education minister. You have 500,000 Syrian refugee

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children who are in Lebanon and you have put them in your school. -- by

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making teachers work double shifts and all the rest of it, it was you

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have to wonder 50,000 Lebanese children in schools.

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We have 250,000 Lebanese students in schools. Already we accommodated

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over 200,000 Syrian children this year. We opened all of the schools

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and a double shift system, warning an afternoon. We are doing

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everything we can to assist in this crisis -- morning. Why not let

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Syrians qualified as teachers work as teachers? You have half a million

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more children now. The unemployment rate in direct this year is 11% --

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Europe. It went down from last year. In Lebanon, after the Syrian

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crisis, we are over 20% unemployment rate for the Lebanese. We first took

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on this government, let me explain, it was very difficult for us to come

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and say we want to help and we want to take on these refugees and put

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them in the classrooms because we were getting opposition and a lot of

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political attacks. As Minister of education in Lebanon, I said if I

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have to be attacked for putting these drilling in schools, that is

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fine. I'm prepared to be attacked on that because every child belongs in

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the classroom. As long as they are in Lebanon, their place is the

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classroom to stop but we have to take into consideration that the

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hold unity is suffering. I can't tell the teachers in Lebanon to stay

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unemployed. But if you have more children, it makes sense to relax

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the restrictions on Syrians working and maybe have Syrian teachers to

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help relieve some of the pressure. But by law, we cannot have Syrian

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teachers instead of Lebanese teachers. The Syrian teachers do not

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teach the Lebanese curriculum. One concerned you have voiced is that

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the refugee crisis has allowed militants in any reckon there are up

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to 3% of the refugee flow including radicals. David Cameron visited

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Lebanon, I did not teach in that context. I was asked a question, if

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I believed there were extremists amongst the refugees, and I said in

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Lebanon on, not all refugees are extremist. Maybe 2% of them could be

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because in the Lebanese camps, we had some of them who went out of the

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camps, kidnapped Lebanese soldiers, they belonged to Daesh and Isis and

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whatever, and they came out of the camps where the refugees were it

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attacked the Lebanese army on more than one occasion. So yes they could

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be. In November last year in a core part of Beirut, you had an attack

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that killed more than 40 and injured 200, which was claimed by Daesh or

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the so-called Islamic State. But there is another thought, which is

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that there are some Sunni Muslims in Lebanon on who are Lebanese who are

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turning to extremism because they see the Hezbollah fighting force,

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which is Shia, supporting Bashar al-Assad in Syria, so they think we

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are going to join the extremists, be Sunni extremists, and a professor

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said well over a year ago that Sunnis are reacting to Shias and are

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defecting to Isil. Definitely there is a conflict between Muslim Sunnis

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and she is in the region. We know that and there is no doubt. --

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Shias. Why is Hezbollah in Syria? The extremes there are reaching the

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Lebanese borders. They are attacking and bombing areas where Shi'ites are

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living. They send car bombs and whatever over the last few years,

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and that is basically why you find this involvement in Syria, because

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it is from both sides. A lot of people don't like it, into a

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Christian member of the free patriot movement, and you are in alliance

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with Hezbollah as part of a ten party block in Parliament. Are you

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content with that alliance, that Hezbollah is fighting alongside the

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Shah al-Assad and he is responsible for killing ten times as many people

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as Daesh are, according to many accounts? -- Bashar al-Assad. We are

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in alliance with ten parties, not just Hezbollah. The comfortable with

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that? It is a Lebanese political party, and they liberated the

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Lebanese. They happen to be fighting alongside Bashar al-Assad. That is

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my super question. When we made our alliance with most of the Lebanese

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parties, and made the original with Hezbollah, it was silly related to

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Lebanon. -- simply. We do not talk about interfering with anyone

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outside the Lebanese border. You can't turn a blind eye to the fact

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they are supporting Bashar al-Assad in Syria, and since he has killed so

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many people, his forces have killed so many people, does that make you

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feel comfortable? To be honest, if I want to talk about the Syrian

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conflict more and that his forces killed to many people, we also have

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to talk about what Daesh and Isil have killed in the Syrian people.

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This war is a dirty game. Everyone is killing everyone. If everybody

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stops interfering in Syria, and I'm talking about everyone, then yes,

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Lebanon will say no need for anyone... The former Prime Minister,

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Sunni, has called on forces to be pulled from Syria to prevent a

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so-called Holocaust. But are you not worried that countries like Saudi

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Arabia, who are obviously opposed to Bashar al-Assad and the sheer force,

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Hezbollah, act like Iran, which receives assistance every year, they

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say we're going to draw not give you the $3 billion assistance to the

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Lebanese army. -- Shia force, Hezbollah, backed like Iran. That

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will hit you where it hurts, it in the pocket. It is not because of

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that only. We're not concerned exit will hit is in the pocket. We are

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concerned because we are an Arab country and don't like to see our

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relationship with the Arab states and countries going right. We would

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like to have the best relationship with Saudi Arabia and the rest of

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the Gulf states -- countries going route. We have different players,

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different sectors. We can not make one decision just on our own. If we

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don't do it collectively, the entire country is accurate. We need to

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understand and make friends understand that is a situation and

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at the same time make all of the decisions that are in favour of

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stemming with the Arab states. We need to stand with Saudi Arabia

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against anyone interfering in their own affairs from within or from

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outside. Finally, protests in the street in Lebanon against the

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rubbish disposal, sectarianism, what hope for peace, prosperity and unity

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in Lebanon on briefly? Well, hope for peace, we have Syria's political

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support from the West and international committee. If they are

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serious about assisting Lebanon, they should help us financially and

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politically to have a stable country, to build our government,

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and to give future hope for all of the young people in Lebanon and

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assist us with the crisis we are going through right now because of

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the Syrian refugees. Ban, Lebanon's education minister, thank you for

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coming on HARDtalk -- Elias Bou Saab.

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