Professor Robert Reich - United States Secretary of Labor, 1993-97 HARDtalk


Professor Robert Reich - United States Secretary of Labor, 1993-97

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Welcome to HARDtalk. It is now all but certain. Hillary Clinton will be

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the Democratic party candidate in November's US presidential election

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after the latest batch of primaries. Her lead over Bernie Sanders looks

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insurmountable. But even now for Bernie Sanders' campaign, radical,

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antiestablishment and crowdfunded, he refuses to admit defeat. My guest

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is Robert Reich, former labour secretary and Bill Clinton's

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administration, now a prominent supporter of Senator Sanders. As the

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centre of gravity in the Democratic party shifted? -- has the centre.

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Robert Reich, in California, welcome to HARDtalk. Thank you. Would you

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acknowledge that the game is now up for your man Bernie Sanders? Well,

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the game is never up. This is a very unusual political season here in the

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United States and Sir nobody is out until they really are out. The odds

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are shrinking of a Bernie Sanders nomination because Hillary Clinton

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has won a number of delegates and has also what are called super

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delegates, insiders who have told her that they will vote for her

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nomination at the Democratic convention in July. So it will be

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extremely difficult. I wouldn't say insurmountable, but very difficult

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for Bernie Sanders to get the nomination. Even he has described it

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as "a very narrow path" that could lead into the nomination. Frankly,

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we all know that is not going to happen. So would it not be best for

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all Democrats, and of course you are a Democrat, for all Democrats to

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advise Bernie Sanders to throw in the towel, to start the process of

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unifying and healing after a pretty bitter primary campaign season?

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Absolutely not. I think it is very important for Bernie Sanders is to

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stay in the contest. Hillary Clinton stayed in the contest in 2008. It

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was also a somewhat bitter contest in the Democratic primary, but her

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staying in made Barack Obama a better candidate and kept a lot of

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her followers in. They ultimately voted for Barack Obama. The Bernie

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Sanders phenomenon is not just a candidacy, it is also a movement to

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reclaim American democracy from what are called the moneyed interests,

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the big banks and financial institutions, the big corporations,

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the billionaires who have overrun American politics, and it is also a

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movement that has attracted unprecedented numbers of young

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people who would be very, very disappointed and feel very let down

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if Bernie Sanders was to leave. I think that movement is going to

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continue right through the convention and beyond. I want to

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talk about the meaning of the movement in some detail. Before we

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get there, let's stick with Sanders and the policy has to make about how

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he conducts himself in a monthly the upto the Philadelphia Convention in

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July. He says he is not the guy for politics as usual, he is a different

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sort of politician, and get what he is doing now, and I will use this

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rather brutal word, trashing parts of Hillary Clinton's record, it is

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politics as usual. In last he has said she is "unqualified" to be

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president. You are one of his supporters. Do you think that

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ill-advised? It is ill-advised. I don't think he should say she is

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unqualified. I think that if she continues to take large money, if

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she is in the pockets of Wall Street, which I don't think she

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is... With respect, she has continued to take large amounts of

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corporate money. There was one of those dinners recently, $350,000 per

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plate for the privilege of sitting near George Clooney. I wouldn't pay

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$350,000 for the privilege of sitting... I wouldn't pay $10 for

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the privilege of sitting next to George Clooney. My point is... That

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the sort of corporate politics that Hillary Clinton is playing and

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Bernie Sanders appears determined to continue this ferocious assault on

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Mrs Clinton's connections to Wall Street and corporate interests when

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I am telling you that maybe it would be better for the party if he backed

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off. I think there's a distinction here that's very important. Bernie

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Sanders continues to rail against big money and politics, big

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corporate money, the billionaire money, money coming from Wall

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Street, and it is not and should not be interpreted, I don't believe, I

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don't believe it is wise for him to say it in any way that can be

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interpreted as an attack on Hillary Clinton personally. It is an attack

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on a system that is out of control and I think it is a perfectly

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legitimate attack. I do think that one of the reasons it is important

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for him to continue in the primaries is because this line of attack, this

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line of argument, is so important to be heard in the United States. You

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have in your analysis of this political season, you have described

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it as very much an antiestablishment political temperature right now.

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Would you accept that one of Hillary Clinton's biggest problems is that

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you cannot imagine a woman with a more establishment record banshee?

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-- than she? You are right in the sense that she has taken a lot of

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money from Wall Street and big corporations and her husband, when

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Bill Clinton was president, by the way I was in that administration and

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very proud... I know you were. They published a great deal. But for our

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audiences who don't remember, Robert Reich, it is worth remembering that

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you sat in the Clinton administration as a voice on the

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progressive left and you had many fights with other members of the

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team because while they were talking about pragmatism, what oration, you

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said, we are liberals. It seems to me that you and the Clintons have

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always been at odds to a certain extent on that point. Well, not on

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the meaning of the word liberal. I think Bill Clinton... I think you

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published a very important -- very important things when he was

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president of a like to think that I helped him, which important things.

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But there was tension in that administration, it was healthy

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tension between those who were most concerned about getting the budget

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deficit down and shrinking the size of the government and those of us

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you might call us the liberally progressive left who wanted to do

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more, who were more ambitious in terms of helping the problems of the

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poor, reducing inequality and so forth. And that tension continues to

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exist in the Democratic party, I say a healthy tension because people

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don't come to blows as they do in the Republican Party. These days the

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Republican Party is a bunch of warring factions. The Democratic

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party is made up of many of my close friends, people who very strongly

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disagreed with me when I was in the Clinton administration, and they are

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now supporting Hillary Clinton. Are they establishment? Well, to some

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extent absolutely. I think this is an antiestablishment surge, both in

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the Democratic campaign and also in the Republican primary campaign. I

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promise you, we will get to the content of the sort of meaning of

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antiestablishment and progressive and words like that when it comes to

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politics in just a moment. One last question about the Hillary Clinton

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factor on a more personal level. She is being questioned on her judgement

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by Bernie Sanders. He points to her support for the Iraq war, he points

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to... Well he actually doesn't, but many of her supporters point to the

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use of personal e-mail in official business, which clearly was a

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mistake and she has apologised for. -- of his supporters. There is a

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judgement factor which Bernie Sanders has introduced, which

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interestingly Donald Trump is now hammering home as well. So here is

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the question. The more Bernie Sanders keeps this up the more he is

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helping the Republicans and in particular Donald Trump. Well, I

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don't think that's true. Certainly if Bernie Sanders tries to go after

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or assassinate in some metaphorical sense Hillary Clinton's character

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personally that would be damaging and that does help the Republican

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challenger. But as long as Bernie Sanders keeps his criticism to the

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side that I was suggesting a moment ago, to the general problem and the

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large problem of money big money, in politics and the domination of the

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interests of big corporations, Wall Street and billionaires over the

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interests of average working people, that's a valid criticism and I hope

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that Hillary Clinton here is that criticism for what it is and

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continues to move in the direction of Bernie Sanders -- that Bernie

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Sanders has been urging. As she has during this entire primary season.

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Interesting point. A lot of people say that because of the pressure

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coming from Bernie Sanders Hillary Clinton has modified her position,

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she has moved leftwards in a way that leaves many people confused

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about what she really believes. Here is a simple question for you. Is

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Hillary Clinton in your view a progressive or not? Here we get back

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to what you wanted to delay in this programme, the definition of what

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all of these words mean. Indeed. I have known her since she was 19

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years old. She deeply cares about the plight of the underdogs, the

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people who are poor, working class, lower middle class in America. She

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has been fighting for better education opportunities for entire

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life for people who don't have very many good educational opportunities.

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And I have no question about her values. Even as you listed... Sorry

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to interrupt. Even as he listed those things that she cares about,

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you have left me a little bit confused. On education Bernie

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Sanders is the guy calling for free college education for all. Hillary

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Clinton says that's ridiculous and it won't work. Bernie Sanders is

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calling for a $50 minimum wage across the country. Hillary Clinton

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says that would work. -- $15. Bernie Sanders is to rip up the trade deals

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that are bad for American workers. Hillary Clinton has in the past

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supported them and says it has Pacific partnership that Bernie

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Sanders hate so much was a golden opportunity. -- hates so much.

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Explain to me, how can she be a progressive with all of those

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positions? She has moved on all of those positions. She is now very

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much in favour of a $15 minimum wage. The fight for 15 she has

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endorsed. She has backed down on the Trans-Pacific Partnership and says

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it isn't such a good idea and needs to be re-examined. On many other

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positions... Why would we believe her then? If she moves around

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according to the political wind, why would we take her seriously? --

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political Sanders pragmatism isn't a bad thing in a president. We get

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this means-end continuum. I've been around politics for about 40 years.

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I do see politicians, the best of them, struggling with means and

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ends. They want to hold fast to their principles but at the same

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time they want to be pragmatic. Bernie Sanders has pushed Hillary

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Clinton very hard towards the ideals that Bernie Sanders feels are very

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important. I happen to share his ideals, which is why I am supporting

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him in the selection, and he is forcing Hillary Clinton to make a

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slightly different way in perhaps offer pragmatism against these

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ideals. -- weighing. If she and when she gets the nomination will see

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move back towards the pragmatic, let's put a quote around it, centre,

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because we haven't defined these terms yet. Maybe, but that doesn't

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mean the ideals are meaningless and it doesn't mean she is not

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principles simply because she is pragmatic at the same time. Will you

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endorse her wholeheartedly and unreservedly when, as seems

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inevitable, she finally gets over the top and has this nomination

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completely sewn up? I certainly will. I don't pick it is inevitable

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but I will certainly endorse and I will try to make sure she president.

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The Democratic party and her candidacy, if she becomes the

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candidates, present and the American public a far better set of

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alternatives than what the Republicans are presenting. I think

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the Republicans really are quite out of their minds. Let's just talk

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about the legacy that Bernie Sanders will leave behind, assuming that

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Hillary Clinton does take the nomination. He has caused a ours and

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has a lot of young people involved in politics for the first time. -- a

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buzz. But if you look at his failure to reach out to minorities, his

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failure to look at small stream conservative Americans who

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repeatedly say they want smaller government and lower taxes, what is

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Bernie's long-term legacy? Bernie Sanders put squarely on the

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public access and connection between great wealth and concentration of

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incoming wealth and also the concentration of political power in

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the United States, in the hands of a relatively few people. Mostly

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billionaires and corporate executives and Wall Street

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executives. I have been in and out of politics for 40 years and there

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has been a huge difference. I have seen any quality become almost

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record level in the United States and with that any quality has come

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the dominance of a moneyed elite over American politics. Bernie

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Sanders has eloquently brought to the public's attention what that has

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meant for American democracy and also for our economy. But that is

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interesting, the bottom line is that he isn't going to win. So just

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leaves his supporters deeply frustrated and with a feeling that

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the system remains loaded against them. But as you undoubtedly know,

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any movement to change a political system, to change the allocution of

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power, takes years and years. Bernie Sanders is and will be one of the

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movement's leaders and there are other leaders. Elizabeth Warren,

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other progressives who are sounding the same alarm. People need to be

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mobilized and organised and this is the beginning of what may be 4-8-12

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years to begin to reverse the concentration of income and wealth

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and political power. Or there is an alternative and actually you have

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posited it your self not long ago in a response to a media question and

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that is that a lot of the anti- establishment feeling that we have

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talked about in this interview, the raw anger of somebody Americans that

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their lot doesn't seem to be improving, that feeling is actually

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channelled into Donald Trump's campaign. That he is the other anti-

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establishment guy in this election season alongside Bernie Sanders and

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that bizarrely, though he is certainly not coming from the left,

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Donald Trump may well Hoover up some of Bernie Sanders' discontented

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supporters. That is certainly possible and we see not only the

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United States but also around Europe, that discontent, anxiety in

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terms of jobs, wages, more economic and security, has led to a welling

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up of anti- establishment and also xenophobic and also unfortunately,

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quite bigoted politics. That is what we have on the writing United States

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and that is what Donald Trump represents. In other words, anti-

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establishment feeling can take either a positive direction in terms

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of a fundamental political reform of the democratic nature, and that is

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Bernie Sanders, or a kind of authoritarian populism, which we see

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in Donald Trump. And that is the choice in America in the future. It

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is the choice in many countries in the future. But the bottom line in

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that response is that there is a populist appeal to Donald Trump as

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there is to Bernie Sanders, which Hillary Clinton doesn't have. Well,

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I think Hillary Clinton, if she faces Donald Trump in the general

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election in the United States, will win. My concern and my fear is that

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that doesn't, in and of itself, deal with this upsurge of populism, both

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authoritarian populism on the Donald Trump side and also the more

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democratic, progressive populism on the left. She will need, as a

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candidate and also, certainly as a president, were she elected, she

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will need, and the Democratic Party and Republican Party for that matter

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will also need to acknowledge this upsurge and begin to address the

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underlying problems of widening inequality, a shrinking middle class

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and economic insecurity. Let's pick up on that point. So far we have

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talked about the political season and the standing of the candidates

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and the parties. Let's leave aside party politics for a moment and

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think about the state of America today. Not so long ago, you wrote a

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book called Saving Capitalism. Do you believe that the political

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system in the United States today and the range of choices offered is

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going to come anywhere close over the next four years of saving

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capitalism? Of restoring America to health? Well, my book and my

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philosophy, as it were, is that the only way that you can have a buoyant

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and healthy capitalism is if you have a growing and buoyant

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middle-class. The poor can ascend into and also can provide enough

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aggregate demand to keep an economy going. That is not the direction we

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are going into now and politically, to get there, you have to have

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changes in the rules of the game that make it possible for a buoyant

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and growing middle class to thrive. Right now, our politics and United

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States is totally dysfunctional. It is polarized and angry. If Hillary

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Clinton were to become president tomorrow, there is very little that

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she would be able to do legislatively to the middle class to

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turn both politically and economically, the country around. If

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I may say so, we have talked party politics. If I look at your writing

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and your thoughts, you are not really confident that anybody can

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deliver the sort of structural, fundamental structural change

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America needs. To quote you, this extraordinary concentration of

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income wealth and political power in the United States at the very top

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imperils all else. Our economy, our democracy, the revival of the

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middle-class, the prospects for poor people and people of colour, climate

:20:45.:20:48.

change, even a sensible foreign-policy. You seem to be

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saying that the any quality in the United States today, the growing gap

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between the superrich and everybody else, is corroding the entire

:20:58.:21:03.

system. And also corrupting the entire system politically. That is

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exactly right. And then you might want to ask, where do I get my

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optimism from? Because I am a very optimistic fellow. I think it will

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be corrected because I look at American history, I look at the

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1830s, I look at the period, the progressive period between 1901

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-1916, the 1930s, the new deal and also to a significant extent, the

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1960s and what you see in the United States is a really remarkable

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resilience, a corrective mechanism where people put their ideology

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aside, roll up their sleeves and get on with what has to be done to save

:21:43.:21:47.

capitalism from itself. You seem so hung up these days on inequality and

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using legislation and regulation and dusting the big banks and the

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healthcare providers to, in your view, deliver a new form of

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equality. Equality isn't really an American ideal. The American dream

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isn't about ensuring that you have just the same as your neighbours, it

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is about ensuring that you have the possibility of rising up and that

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your kids can rise up even further. Why are you now so hung up on

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inequality? Stephen, I am not hung up on equality. I am hung up on the

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problem of any poll wealth and power in the United States. We have not

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seen this degree of inequality since the 1890s, the so-called gilded age

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where you had connection with the concentrated income at the wealth.

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But the American dream has always delivered any quality. Is really

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what America is about. Oh wait a minute, Steven. That's absurdly

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wrong. Americas about upward mobility and you can't get that if

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you have too much any quality. We have seen that repeatedly and

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economic studies confirm that. In fact, if you lose your middle-class,

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there is no place for the poor to ascend into. If you lose your

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middle-class, and we are in the process of having a shrinking middle

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class, the median wage and the median household incomes are

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actually dropping adjusted for inflation, if that occurs, it is

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much harder for anybody to move upward and that is what this whole

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battle is about. That is what Bernie Sanders is about and his whole

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phenomenon. It is a lot of what is fuelling Donald Trump, about the

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fears and insecurities of a middle class that is freaking. Are you sure

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you are still optimistic? Yes I am optimistic. I am optimistic because,

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again, look at the young people. When I'm not in politics, IT can

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surround myself with young people, 18-28 years old, who are

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extraordinarily idealistic. And they are the inheritors of this system.

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They are the ones who are going to make the changes that are required.

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Robert Reich, weevil and not with a positive thought. -- end with a

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positive thought. Thank you for being on HARDtalk. Thank you very

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much. Some of us have seen snow

:24:18.:24:37.

so far this week, but the risk of

:24:38.:24:41.

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