Ece Temelkuran, Turkish Author HARDtalk


Ece Temelkuran, Turkish Author

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Welcome to HARDtalk. I'm Stephen Sackur.

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Two months ago, Turkey's elected government managed to survive

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Not necessarily - not if you regard freedom of expression

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and an independent judiciary as prerequisites of

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Thousands of judges, journalists, civil servants have been locked up

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My guest today is Ece Temelkuran, a prominent writer and journalist

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who knows how difficult it can be to speak out in Erdogan's Turkey.

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Thank you for having me. Let's start with what is happening in Turkey

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today and has been happening for the last couple of months. As everything

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that happened since that attended crew, as taken you by surprise or

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not width the coup, it did. But the things that happened afterwards, not

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really -- attempted that matter. Because everybody is talking about

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if this was a staged act or not, or if it was a real coup attempt. Your

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view? I think it was a real coup attempt. When things don't go the

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way we think they go, the one who benefit from the incident is the one

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who creates the incident. That rule does not really apply every time in

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middle eastern countries. People thought since the president is

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benefiting from the situation, he might have staged this act, which

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was not the case, I think. His political career has been built on

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this turning crashes into opportunities. It was not surprising

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that he would try to restrict them himself even more after the coup,

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which is legitimate in many people's eyes at the moment. -- crisis. You

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use that interesting phrase, turning a crisis into an opportunity. Sorry

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to interrupt. I do it all the time. I am just trying to set some rules

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in the hope you don't do it. His political career started at a

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certain point when he was in prison, and when he was out of the prison,

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he was a very strong leader already. From that time going on throughout

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his career, he did a similar thing and turned crises into

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opportunities, which is brilliant. You made a point several times of

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repeating a pump, in 1997, after a very complex moment in Turkish

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political history -- poem. Another attempted coup of a sort. President

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Erdogan addressed a crowd while under pressure, and he said the

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minarets our bayonets, the domes our helmets, the mosque is our barracks,

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the divine army await our faith. Because you regard that as such a

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seminal moment, is a true therefore to say the you believe President

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Erdogan's career has been something where from the beginning he has been

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a man on a mission and a mission which involves authoritarianism in

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the name of Islam? I have been a critic of this government from the

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very beginning. I am not one of those who love this government in

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the beginning and all of a sudden understood there were frittering

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inclinations in this regime. -- authoritarian. I would say it was

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significant and obvious, it was apparent from the beginning. When

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you know Turkish history, it was supposed to be so. This government

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was supposed to be authoritarian. We have to go back to the 1980 coup,

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which all of the leftists and progressive people created millions

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of exiles and imprisonments, torture cases and so on. You were left with

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very strong conservative society, their much a conservative society

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and a strong right-wing politics. I would say when you look throughout

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time, this government was, this Turkey, has been the outcome of the

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1980 coup. They are different brands of authoritarianism introduces true.

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Every brand. -- in Turkish history. Here are a few figures. 130 media

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organisations shut down since the coup. 45 newspapers, 29 publishing

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houses, radio stations, 16 television stations, magazines,

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three news agencies, they have all been in one way or another

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interfered with or intervene with or shut down by the Turkish government.

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The liberal secular side of Turkish politics is saying this is worse,

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the repression is worse then we saw with the military dictatorships. Do

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you say that? It is tragic that we have these two options only, either

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military dictatorship or this kind of operation. -- oppression. I don't

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want to make a comparison. Why not? Because it is not the only option,

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these are not the only options. They are the two strands of your history

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so it is easy to make a comparison. I wonder if you don't want to

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because... Is like no, it is not. There are many dichotomies repeated

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the mainstream media. It is either military people or conservative

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right-wing religious authoritarian regime. That is not a right way of

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looking at things. It assumes that military is secular and therefore

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against the religious movement. It is not like that. In the 1980 coup,

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it was the first time the military approved the brigade free religious

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lessons in Turkey. Actually, the military authority approved and

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supported actively the religious movements and the other two ago when

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-- Fethullah Gulen, which is supposedly responsible for this

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coup. Right now, Turks are being encouraged by the government to make

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a binary choice. President Erdogan is essentially using the language of

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George W Bush after 9- 11. You are either with us or against us. He is

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representing the state, democracy and the survival of a great Turkey.

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He says those against whom are enemies of the state and traitors.

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Whose side are you on? I am trying to BB story teller and not to take

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sides, I want to tell the whole story, the entire story. Once you

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take one side, you don't hear the other side, and more importantly,

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the other side does not hear you. There is no room, in order to

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respect. It is an extremely polarised society -- in all due

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respect. All sites have been hating each other, and that hurts turns to

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disgust. People don't want to see the other cohabit with the other.

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That is a very dangerous thing. You rather neatly dodged my whose side

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are you on question. I will come back to it. You have a history with

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present anyone. In 2012, you were a prominent correspondent with the

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Haberturk newspaper and wrote vitriolic columns ticking on

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President Erdogan directly. -- taking on. You addressing directly

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and say, so you give the orders, my commander, but I am not listening to

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you any more. We are the rest of this country. We will not listen to

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your orders any more. In President Erdogan's mine, that probably sounds

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like in a sense you are pre-empting the coup, questioning... You are

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putting ideas in people's minds. It was years ago. Secondly, it was not

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about President Erdogan, it was about the massacre that happened on

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the border that accidentally killed a dozen kids. You say we are the

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rest of the country. Because of that article, and a 32nd telephone

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call... You were fired, tracked down. You have continued writing and

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you have a prominent voice in and out of Turkey. But it is

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extraordinarily difficult to navigate right now. Absolutely. One

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thing I feel like pointing out something, this is the new fashion

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in media now. Being against us. It started after the uprising. Before

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that uprising, all of these people who are now criticising's, most of

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the intellectuals and journalists, they were praising this Turkish

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model. After the uprising, it it is all over the place. They are acting

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as if President Erdogan is the mother of all evil. He moved from

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being the Democrat, moderate Islamist, to be authoritarian. You

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would be surprised but I think it is unfair to him. There was something

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wrong with the model, not the man. Nobody takes the time to think about

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what was wrong with that model. You are saying it was naive and wrong to

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ever think there was this thing called moderate Islam. Is that what

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you are saying? It is not that which I am saying. It is this fantasy of

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perfect marriage within democracy and moderate Islam, it was lacking

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vision. In a sense, I want to get personal. We have talked about the

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difficulty of navigating as a writer and journalist in today's post coup

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Turkey, and God knows it is difficult. Have you had to dial back

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on what you write? Are you constantly aware with every word

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that leaves your computer that you could be running a very personal

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risk? This has been my story for the last 20 years, which, you know, is

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my entire writing life. There are hundreds of journalists locked up

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right now, many new friends and colleagues of yours. But surely

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meant you can't say what you want to say any more. This is not new

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fertility to start with, but it is true that it has become more

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worrying at the moment -- new for Turkey. Yes, I do feel concerned. To

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give the British understatement. LAUGHTER

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You are still based in Istanbul. Yes, I am. I have another place in

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Zagreb, I bought it a few years ago because it is not only the

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oppression and Turkey being threatening, the turbulent times

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paralyse you. You are intellectually paralysed in such a turbulent

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country. Sometimes I need some peace of mind, so I go to Zagreb to write.

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You have written movingly about sometimes the way you feel about

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Turkey, the homeland. One phrase I remember about you feeling almost

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like a relationship with a lover, a lover that is you so badly and so

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deeply, and I just wonder if you believe that the relationship

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between you and your homeland, is that amount of hurt is there, can be

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repaired? This as being going on since the establishment of this

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country. Since the state. The state is never being compassionate towards

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people like me. Towards people who tell the real and entire story of

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the country. I mentioned almost all of them in the book. The very

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important ones at least. The greatest poet in Turkish literature,

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and another great poet in Turkish Language. All of these names either

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have been imprisoned, tortured, exiled, you know, whatever you want.

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So this state has been quite massless against those children that

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loved him most -- mercilessly stop is that because you are out of tune

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and out of step with most Turks? Therefore it is easy to isolate you

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and to try to pin you down and in a sense, to silence you?

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No country loves their children if they are children is constantly

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talking about the negativity is of the country. It is not about Turkey,

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it goes for many countries and many societies. I am a writer. It isn't

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easy to like a writer who writes about political stuff. And you talk

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about subjects that Turkey as a state, not just any government, but

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at the state has declared to be off limits, like the army and genocide.

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You have taken it on in a way most writers refuse to because they know

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it could lead to their being locked up. You've also taken on the human

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rights situation in the Kurdish areas of Turkey, repeatedly. I think

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you would probably call yourself a feminist in a way that upset some

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Turks. Yes. The human rights defender. I am not really a

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defender, I am trying to move to the storytelling part. I am trying to be

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more on the storytelling part. In all these cases you mentioned,

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Armenian issues, the Kurdish question and so on and so forth, all

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of them I want to tell the entire story. In the Armenian case, for

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instance, I thought the term genocide stopped the conversation

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between Turkish and Armenian people, so I try to find another way to tell

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the story without mentioning that word and to tell the pain of

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Armenian people to Turkish people and vice-versa. For Kurdish people I

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tried to bring those people as human beings for the people in the western

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Turkey to see the story. Because I am this naive person who thinks that

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once you know the story you can understand the person. Against that

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you betray a Turkish society which in some way seems to be determined,

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not just because of government instruction, but collectively

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determined to forget to be silent. -- you portray. You talk about the

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Dubai-isation, where as long as people have access to shopping

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centres and converts they can sort or forget all of the polarisations

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and divisions within their country. Is that the weight you feel about

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Turkey today? Turkey is, the cliched definition, that Turkey is the place

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between Asia and Europe. So once you are on a bridge you feel like

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passing through it, not really staying on it. So I always thought

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that Turkey has been hurrying up, rushing history, let's say, to cross

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the bridge. The ideology in the beginning was to cross the bridge to

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the western side, where is in this new Turkey the idea was to cross to

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the other side, to eastern side. You strike me as a deeply westernised

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Turk. Is that how you see yourself? I am pretty much middle eastern in

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my emotional world, but if we talk about realities I am kind of Weston,

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I think. I want to bring it back to politics, you would be delighted to

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know. I want to bring it back to Erdogan and your critique of him,

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which you would suggest makes his talk of democracy illegitimate, and

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yet the truth is that according to all of the evidence in Turkey today

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he is more popular and his government is more popular today

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than it has ever been. More than two thirds of Turks appear to willingly,

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voluntarily, support President Erdogan. How does that fit in your

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picture? First of all, I told you before and I repeat it again, this

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book is not about Mr Erdogan and I am not personally criticising Mr

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Erdogan. I am talking about the system, the ideas, the ideologies

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and so forth. Let's put that aside. Democracy is a funny thing. Once you

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define it as just... As the ballot boxes, then you can get anything you

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want. But then it is not only ballot boxes, it's unions, foundations,

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civil society and so on and so forth. Would you draw a parallel

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between Mr Erdogan today and Vladimir Putin, in Russia? I think

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there's a trend the world and you are going to go through that as

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well, I think, in Britain. There is a trend of order -- orderism. Having

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Putin, in France they are having right-wing parties, in Austria as

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well, so this is a trend. And I think it represents the crisis of

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democracy for the entire world and that's why Turkey is important.

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That's why Europe has to pay more attention to Turkey, because if the

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Turkish democracy gets damaged, I think that might have a domino

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effect in Europe and you will see the right-wing parties in Europe

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will rise with the same discourse, the same arguments, that have been

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used in Turkey. You seem quite disillusioned with the way Western

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powers have looked at Turkey in recent years and you seem to believe

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they have consistently misunderstood what is happening. Not really. I

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think they chose to believe in this project, the Turkish model, because

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it fit the requirements of the world. What do you mean, the

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moderate idea, that Erdogan could be the effective bridge between Western

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ideology and the Arab world? Yes, especially after the fears of 9/11.

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By the way, I am feeling like the guinea pig of a failed experiment, a

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massive scale experiment, and most people feel the same way. In Egypt,

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people who went to Tahrir Square, almost the same thing. What, a sense

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of betrayal? Not betrayal, you are asking about the west and my

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disillusionment. I think they refuse to talk to secular parts of society

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and politics and they were still enthusiastic for a decade, so

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enthusiastic about this project. So they fell for the narrative of the

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secularism of these countries, the elites, they are oppressive and they

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are pressing the real people of Turkey, or the real people of the

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country and so on. I think all these people, all these intellectuals and

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writers, they should show the same enthusiasm now when they connect,

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communicate, with the secular part of the society. We view, you mean.

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What happens to you now? With you. You say from time to time you feel

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intellectually paralysed and you have to get out. Do you think you

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will end up living... Given that situation... No, God forbid, I don't

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want that. It is not an easy thing to talk about. I look at other

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journalists and writers and frankly courageous people, as you've said,

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who are committed to truth telling and write -- right now in Turkey

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that's dangerous exercise. I am not a courageous person. I am a perfect

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coward. Callard? -- cow would? The things you have written? I am a

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serious coward. Usually this programme doesn't work like that.

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You say you are courageous and I say you are not. No, this is how I deal

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with life. A fierce. I am not a courageous person. Whenever you

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bring up imprisonment and so on I go to -- like this. But I don't want to

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be defined by courage because that is a lot of weight on one's shoulder

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and then introduces you to this person who is courageous. And there

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is a funny thing about being in a position, especially in Turkey

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nowadays, even though you are oppositional. Whenever the political

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power becomes more primitive you are coming more primitive accordingly

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and you are turning into this person who says, no! Which doesn't require

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much intellectual capacity. That's why I am trying to write the whole

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story, that's why I am telling that Turkey's story is far bigger than

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the current government and current issues. It is interesting you say

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this. My last question is this, we do you feel you will move away from

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the sort of daily diet of commentary and columns and journalism and more

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towards your fiction, maybe more allegorical stuff, where the tension

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with the state and the government is less of a daily pressure? Yes.

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Because journalism, or articles, daily articles, are more mediocre,

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in a way. Compared to literature. When you write literature you write

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these big books, so all these people who want to hate you have to take

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their time and spend energy and they do do that, so they don't see the

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politics actually buried in them a mark that basically buried in those

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books. That's a great way of putting it. Ece Temelkuran, thank you very

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much for being on HARDtalk Thank you.

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Tuesday the 13th of September will be a day to remember,

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not just because of extreme heat but a day of contrast.

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