Browse content similar to 11/03/2014. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Ed Miliband will not be matching David Cameron's pledge of a | :00:00. | :00:11. | |
referendum on Europe in 2017. Is there now a clear line between them? | :00:12. | :00:17. | |
On one of the most contentious issues in contemporary politics. | :00:18. | :00:24. | |
Labour say it would take a significant transfer of powers to | :00:25. | :00:28. | |
offer an in-out referendum. Is this political bravery to stay away from | :00:29. | :00:32. | |
the Tory line or will they pay for it at the European elections. | :00:33. | :00:36. | |
How did a father from Crawley end up suicide bombing a Syrian jail? If my | :00:37. | :00:44. | |
brother had been a British soldier, the British people, in that prison, | :00:45. | :00:50. | |
and the act he did, the act of heroism or bravery he did, I know he | :00:51. | :00:56. | |
would have been awarded the posthumous Victoria Cross. Requiem | :00:57. | :01:03. | |
for a union boss outside a tube station, did we all secretly love | :01:04. | :01:10. | |
Bob Crow. One of these two is less than entirely sure. Not even the | :01:11. | :01:22. | |
greatest fans of the European Union claim that it's exactly popular at | :01:23. | :01:26. | |
present. And this country's relationship with the EU is | :01:27. | :01:31. | |
confidently expected to be a major battle ground in the next election. | :01:32. | :01:33. | |
The Conservatives have already promised that they will try to | :01:34. | :01:38. | |
renegotiate the relationship, and that the British people will be | :01:39. | :01:42. | |
given the chance to vote in a referendum on whether to stay in or | :01:43. | :01:46. | |
leave. Tomorrow Ed Miliband will announce that while Labour wants to | :01:47. | :01:51. | |
stay in, there will be no more transfer of powers from London to | :01:52. | :01:56. | |
Brussels, without a referendum. Similar words, very different | :01:57. | :02:01. | |
meanings. Emily explains. The key thing is not what Ed Miliband is | :02:02. | :02:06. | |
saying he will do, I guess what he's implicitly saying he won't do. We | :02:07. | :02:10. | |
have learned tonight he won't be matching David Cameron's pledge, as | :02:11. | :02:13. | |
you describe it, to hold a referendum on Europe in 2017. What | :02:14. | :02:17. | |
Labour calls an arbitary timetable about an issue that doesn't really | :02:18. | :02:21. | |
resonate with the voters. Neither will he give the Tories the | :02:22. | :02:23. | |
satisfaction of ruling out a referendum all together. So tomorrow | :02:24. | :02:27. | |
Ed Miliband will announce that they are legislating a new lock, forgive | :02:28. | :02:32. | |
that it is Brussels speak, he is promising there will be no transfer | :02:33. | :02:37. | |
of powers from the UK to the EU without a referendum, a clear | :02:38. | :02:41. | |
referendum on our continued membership of the EU. Now he says | :02:42. | :02:45. | |
this is not a scenario that he thinks is likely, it is not even a | :02:46. | :02:52. | |
at all likely, but he says it is not impossible. Has anyone reacted yet? | :02:53. | :02:58. | |
We have heard via Twitter from David Cameron, who has put only the | :02:59. | :03:01. | |
Conservative Party can guarantee and deliver that in-out referendum. But | :03:02. | :03:04. | |
perhaps what is fascinating about this story is the way the same line | :03:05. | :03:11. | |
is running in diametrically opposite directions. You can either hear it | :03:12. | :03:15. | |
as a pledge he will offer a referendum in that particular | :03:16. | :03:19. | |
scenario, or he has ruled it out. Before I came on air I talked to | :03:20. | :03:24. | |
Labour heavy-hitter, and they said the big deal is Ed Miliband has | :03:25. | :03:30. | |
bitten the bullet and won't fall in behind the PM's referendum. David | :03:31. | :03:33. | |
Cameron and George Osborne are desperate for Ed Miliband to fall in | :03:34. | :03:39. | |
behind the issue and neutralise the issue and stop the damage done so it | :03:40. | :03:43. | |
is two sides of the same coin. If they could have Ed Miliband on side | :03:44. | :03:47. | |
and David Cameron could point and say what did he get out of the | :03:48. | :03:50. | |
referendum commitment, nothing. It didn't stop UKIP, it didn't make | :03:51. | :03:55. | |
Angela Merkel fall at his feet or silence his own backbench critics. | :03:56. | :04:00. | |
Perhaps Ed Miliband is playing a shrewd game here. If Ed Miliband is | :04:01. | :04:06. | |
right, then voters put Europe about 13th on the list of things that | :04:07. | :04:10. | |
really matter to them. In other words, it shouldn't be something | :04:11. | :04:12. | |
that any of the parties take that seriously. But if it wasn't that | :04:13. | :04:16. | |
much of a worry, well perhaps we wouldn't be hearing quite so much | :04:17. | :04:19. | |
about it. And certainly for all their talk of the significance of | :04:20. | :04:23. | |
the cost of living crisis and jobs, tomorrow the Labour leader will | :04:24. | :04:26. | |
tackle the Europe issue head on. With a concession that Europe, as | :04:27. | :04:32. | |
they might say, isn't working. I know the reputation of the EU is | :04:33. | :04:37. | |
with reason at a low-ebb he might say: | :04:38. | :04:46. | |
SGLLT he will be writing in the FT newspaper and go on to say: | :04:47. | :05:04. | |
Where do the stories stand? David Cameron made that clear a year ago? | :05:05. | :05:09. | |
We will give the British people a referendum with a very simple in or | :05:10. | :05:16. | |
out choice, to stay in the European Union on these new terms or to come | :05:17. | :05:22. | |
out all together. It will be an in-out referendum. Of course there | :05:23. | :05:26. | |
are plenty in his party that would wish him to go further and indeed | :05:27. | :05:30. | |
quicker. But a private members' bill, representing the Cameron | :05:31. | :05:37. | |
position was defeated by Labour and the Lib Dem peers in January. The | :05:38. | :05:41. | |
Tories will attempt to bring back the legislation later this year. | :05:42. | :05:44. | |
UKIP have one of the clearest positions on Europe, they just want | :05:45. | :05:47. | |
to leave the EU all together. They question the number of jobs that | :05:48. | :05:52. | |
come from the union, and indeed how dependant the British economy is on | :05:53. | :05:58. | |
Europe. Last week one UKIP MEP admitted the transition couldn't and | :05:59. | :06:01. | |
wouldn't happen in fewer than five years. Be more in, vote Lib Dem. | :06:02. | :06:06. | |
Just this weekend Nick Clegg announced that the choice at the | :06:07. | :06:09. | |
European elections would be between them and UKIP. He would take on what | :06:10. | :06:14. | |
he called "backwards-looking politics", he said they would be the | :06:15. | :06:19. | |
party of "in" and UKIP would be the party of "out". Everyone else he | :06:20. | :06:24. | |
intimated was ssing around in the middle, threatening to pull up the | :06:25. | :06:30. | |
draw bridge. John Man wrote to Ed Miliband asking him to pledge: | :06:31. | :06:42. | |
Some's speech won't go anywhere near as far, but perhaps it may offer a | :06:43. | :06:48. | |
small crumb or two or all those campaigning on the doorstep in the | :06:49. | :06:53. | |
weeks and months to come. Did he have anything else to say? If you | :06:54. | :06:57. | |
read the speech carefully, there are interesting concessions. He says in | :06:58. | :07:01. | |
it Britain needs to work more effectively to change within the EU. | :07:02. | :07:05. | |
He lists things that he's going to go out and seek change on. He says a | :07:06. | :07:09. | |
longer time between new countries joining and their citizens being | :07:10. | :07:12. | |
eligible for rights. He wants to make it easier to deport criminals | :07:13. | :07:17. | |
from overseas, a longer wait before doling out Child Tax Credit when | :07:18. | :07:20. | |
children live abroad. If you are listening to this, you are hearing | :07:21. | :07:24. | |
the voice and echo of David Cameron. This is classic, isn't it, Tory | :07:25. | :07:27. | |
territory that Ed Miliband is moving on to. The key difference being that | :07:28. | :07:33. | |
Ed Miliband has committed himself to only offering this referendum if | :07:34. | :07:37. | |
those powers are already being transferred. But this will also, I | :07:38. | :07:42. | |
suggest, go some way towards reassuring the business community | :07:43. | :07:46. | |
who has felt quite forgotten of late, quite isolated, all the talk | :07:47. | :07:50. | |
of energy freezes, or banks being split up o the bankers' bonuses | :07:51. | :07:54. | |
leaving businesses in a slightly shaky position. Does he offer any | :07:55. | :07:59. | |
apology for giving away all those powers in the Lisbon Treaty? That | :08:00. | :08:03. | |
wasn't him directly I guess, but maybe one for him next time he's | :08:04. | :08:08. | |
here. To discuss Ed Miliband's proposal we have John Mann, who has | :08:09. | :08:13. | |
written to Mr Ed Miliband today to call for an in-out referendum in the | :08:14. | :08:18. | |
first 12 months of the next parliament, and Mr Rudd head of | :08:19. | :08:24. | |
Business for New Europe. Do you think this promise meets what you | :08:25. | :08:28. | |
believe to be the public mood? Not fully, but it is certainly a | :08:29. | :08:31. | |
significant move in the right direction. The public mood isn't | :08:32. | :08:34. | |
specifically about a referendum, the public mood is about sorting out | :08:35. | :08:39. | |
what they see as the injustice and inequity within the European Union. | :08:40. | :08:43. | |
Until that is addressed this issue is going to resonate very, very | :08:44. | :08:48. | |
strongly. This is classic Ed Miliband isn't t it's clear as mud | :08:49. | :08:53. | |
in many ways? I think it's pretty clear, if there is a transfer of | :08:54. | :08:58. | |
powers to Brussels, there has to be an in-out referendum. I think the | :08:59. | :09:02. | |
likelihood of that transfer is extremely unlikely because you have | :09:03. | :09:05. | |
seen Germany, you have seen France, you have seen the positions of these | :09:06. | :09:08. | |
major European powers, there isn't going to be treaty change, not for | :09:09. | :09:15. | |
the foreseeable future. So you think it is showing the public mood? I | :09:16. | :09:19. | |
think it is very unlikely there will be a major treaty change, but I | :09:20. | :09:22. | |
think it is right if there was one that transferred powers to Brussels, | :09:23. | :09:27. | |
there should be a referendum on in-out, that is fair, I don't see | :09:28. | :09:31. | |
why you pick a particular date and time to pacify euro-sceptics who are | :09:32. | :09:35. | |
never going to be pass satisfied because they want to leave the | :09:36. | :09:38. | |
European Union. There would be an advantage to picking a deadline | :09:39. | :09:45. | |
wouldn't there? The advantage is that as leverage in negotiating, | :09:46. | :09:50. | |
David Cameron wants more flexible labour markets, that is not what the | :09:51. | :09:52. | |
public is telling me they want. They want the opposite. This is about | :09:53. | :09:58. | |
jobs and about some powers coming back into this country. And that | :09:59. | :10:02. | |
word that people don't like talking about in Westminster, "immigration". | :10:03. | :10:06. | |
What do you feel will be the reaction among the people that you | :10:07. | :10:09. | |
have been speaking to in the light of Labour's experience in | :10:10. | :10:12. | |
Government? People want to see, and what they are saying, Labour voters, | :10:13. | :10:17. | |
not least, want to see their voice being heard. They want to be trusted | :10:18. | :10:24. | |
and what they want is a significant reduction in the powers of the | :10:25. | :10:26. | |
European Union, particularly over jobs. If that doesn't happen then | :10:27. | :10:30. | |
people are not going to be happy. That is not what is being promised | :10:31. | :10:35. | |
is it? Not yet, but it is in the right direction. You have got | :10:36. | :10:38. | |
Cameron going one way, saying he wants more flexible labour markets, | :10:39. | :10:44. | |
agency workers is a good example of where Ed Miliband, I think, will go | :10:45. | :10:48. | |
next and saying we need stronger laws that in essence outmanoeuvre | :10:49. | :10:52. | |
the European Union and their flexible labour market mentality on | :10:53. | :10:59. | |
agencies. If that happens that would be hugely popular in the country. | :11:00. | :11:03. | |
You are rather chuffed aren't you? I think it is rather good move because | :11:04. | :11:06. | |
I would like to see Britain remain in the European Union. I don't want | :11:07. | :11:09. | |
to see an arbitary date in terms of referendum. It is right to have one | :11:10. | :11:12. | |
when there is a transfer of powers. Despite the fact as Emily has | :11:13. | :11:16. | |
pointed out, he's talking much of Cameron's language here? Well he is | :11:17. | :11:21. | |
a little bit on immigration, and I don't particularly necessary agree | :11:22. | :11:26. | |
with all of that. I think allowing the accession aid in 2004 was a good | :11:27. | :11:30. | |
move. Other things like not allowing child benefit for people who work | :11:31. | :11:33. | |
here from the European Union is perfectly acceptable. There are | :11:34. | :11:36. | |
sensible reforms, we do need Europe reformed and there is a real | :11:37. | :11:39. | |
possibility in getting more reform from Europe. But perhaps where I | :11:40. | :11:43. | |
would disagree with John is I think you are much more likely to get that | :11:44. | :11:47. | |
reform if you are seen to be somebody who wants to remain in | :11:48. | :11:50. | |
Europe and who doesn't threaten to leave at arbitary dates. What does | :11:51. | :11:56. | |
it do to the position of UKIP in the elections do you think? Well, you | :11:57. | :12:00. | |
know, UKIP are going to continue to argue that we should leave and we | :12:01. | :12:03. | |
need to leave immediately. Obviously the Conservatives will say we're the | :12:04. | :12:08. | |
only party which you can rely on to have a referendum early on in this. | :12:09. | :12:14. | |
And in some ways we have seen it with the Immigration Minister and | :12:15. | :12:19. | |
Conservatives, they will try to out-UKIP, UKIP on some issues. | :12:20. | :12:23. | |
Ultimately that is dangerous because if you are worried about immigration | :12:24. | :12:27. | |
and decide you want to stop it at all costs you will vote for UKIP not | :12:28. | :12:31. | |
a pale imitation. That gives you a problem doesn't it? UKIP, if they | :12:32. | :12:36. | |
weren't a bunch of fruitcakes then UKIP would be getting somewhere. | :12:37. | :12:39. | |
Let's hold the abuse aside for a second? That is how the public sees | :12:40. | :12:44. | |
them, not just me, and therefore UKIP, they will do better at the | :12:45. | :12:47. | |
European elections, there are other elections. But this isn't about | :12:48. | :12:52. | |
UKIP. They are still voting for these fruitcakes. If you want a | :12:53. | :12:56. | |
referendum on Europe the only people to guarantee it are UKIP and Tories? | :12:57. | :13:01. | |
The agenda in Europe will change when you get extreme parties in the | :13:02. | :13:05. | |
right and left anti-European Union, in other countries, particularly the | :13:06. | :13:08. | |
south and Eastern Europe, you get them elected to the European | :13:09. | :13:11. | |
Parliament, that is the earthquake that is coming. What Ed Miliband | :13:12. | :13:15. | |
needs to do when that happens is take the big issues, such as agency | :13:16. | :13:21. | |
workers, such as jobs, and ensure that the Labour Party is speaking | :13:22. | :13:24. | |
for its own voters on that. If it does, it will be the right position | :13:25. | :13:29. | |
in British politics. We will get more jobs if we remain in the | :13:30. | :13:33. | |
European Union. We extend the European market and push hard on | :13:34. | :13:38. | |
trade agreements and make sure it is the capital city of Europe. Those | :13:39. | :13:41. | |
are the areas we will ensure greater job production than we will by | :13:42. | :13:45. | |
threatening to leave or fighting on single issues that could actually | :13:46. | :13:48. | |
jeopardise our membership. Thank you very much both of you. It is a | :13:49. | :13:52. | |
little over a month since a man from Sussex became the first British | :13:53. | :13:55. | |
person to die carrying out a suicide bomb attack in the Syrian Civil War. | :13:56. | :14:00. | |
He left behind three children. There are said to be hundreds of British | :14:01. | :14:05. | |
men who may have become involved in that war about whom the security | :14:06. | :14:08. | |
forces say they have significant worries. It boils down to this, | :14:09. | :14:12. | |
could someone who travels to fight in a foreign war return to Britain | :14:13. | :14:17. | |
so hardened that they are willing to use violence here to advance their | :14:18. | :14:26. | |
beliefs? We report. This is Britain's first suicide | :14:27. | :14:29. | |
bomber killed in Syria. Filmed moments before he blew himself up, | :14:30. | :14:40. | |
at the gates of Aleppo Prison. Abdul Majid is the tenth man from Britain | :14:41. | :14:45. | |
known to have died on the Mirrian battlefield. He has been portrayed | :14:46. | :14:50. | |
as dang us fanatic, adding to the authorities' fears that this will | :14:51. | :14:55. | |
bring bloodshed back home. They may be radicalised and brutalised by | :14:56. | :14:59. | |
some of the experiences they see. Syria has become the Jihadi | :15:00. | :15:04. | |
destination of choice. But to his family, friends and some Muslims | :15:05. | :15:10. | |
Majid was something else entirely. My brother was not a terrorist. My | :15:11. | :15:16. | |
brother was a hero. He made the ultimate sacrifice to save the | :15:17. | :15:22. | |
Syrian people. We have spoken exclusively to his closest friend, | :15:23. | :15:26. | |
who travelled to Syria with him. I don't see how he is in any way | :15:27. | :15:33. | |
promoting the idea of returning back to any western country to carry out | :15:34. | :15:42. | |
acts of terrorism. His journey started in Crawley West Sussex, but | :15:43. | :15:45. | |
ended thousands of miles from home. When he got behind the wheel of this | :15:46. | :15:51. | |
struck bomb. This is the story of the man from Martyres Avenue. He's | :15:52. | :16:03. | |
in the camp and putting on a show for the children here. It was days | :16:04. | :16:07. | |
before his family realised he had been involved. He had gone to Syria | :16:08. | :16:11. | |
six months earlier with a nationwide aid convoy. My heart sank, my mum | :16:12. | :16:21. | |
and dad's hearts san We were extremely grief-striken when we saw | :16:22. | :16:26. | |
the moment, extremely shocked and deeply, deeply worried. Majeed was a | :16:27. | :16:31. | |
married man with three children. He had a steady job with the Highways | :16:32. | :16:38. | |
Agency. His brother said Majeed went to Syria to make a difference. He | :16:39. | :16:44. | |
saw there was people being oppressed, people with no food, | :16:45. | :16:50. | |
people being torn apart from their families, people being put in prison | :16:51. | :16:55. | |
and he just thought this was a great injustice. His friend went with him, | :16:56. | :17:01. | |
he says that they maintained refugee camps along the Turkey-Syria border, | :17:02. | :17:11. | |
Mr Mahmood returned in January but his friend stayed on. We put down | :17:12. | :17:16. | |
panels for channels for generators to be set up. Cables to be tied to | :17:17. | :17:21. | |
poles. These kinds of ideas to improve the situation in a | :17:22. | :17:27. | |
particular campsite. Did he ever fight? No, no. Did he ever talk | :17:28. | :17:35. | |
about fighting? No. Very, very busy with the work he was doing. There | :17:36. | :17:41. | |
was periods of time when we were apart. Wren When we were together it | :17:42. | :17:46. | |
was the might of the people, how we were assisting and helping them. | :17:47. | :17:51. | |
Majeed's family and friends believe he launched an attack to free | :17:52. | :17:57. | |
prisoners after reports of appalling treatment in the jails. His friend | :17:58. | :18:02. | |
said he had been deeply affected by the war. You would see the glaze in | :18:03. | :18:07. | |
his eye, and tears, these stories are shocking what these people have | :18:08. | :18:16. | |
gone through. My's Majeed's attack was carried out by one of several | :18:17. | :18:22. | |
affiliated to Al-Qaeda groups. The BBC has been unable to verify | :18:23. | :18:27. | |
claims. Afterwards there were reports that Majeed, who lived on | :18:28. | :18:35. | |
the improbably named In the at thes Avenue. As man he had attended talks | :18:36. | :18:45. | |
of a group. It is claimed the leader drove him to regular meetings in the | :18:46. | :18:52. | |
town. Some of the men were convicted in Operation Crevice, a massive | :18:53. | :18:56. | |
operation that thwarted plots to blow up targets in Britain. Majeed | :18:57. | :19:04. | |
was not implicated and he had left Al Majhagaroon. He had been in touch | :19:05. | :19:12. | |
with them and they didn't marry with his beliefs. He stayed with them for | :19:13. | :19:23. | |
a short time and moved on. This man's brother was jailed for his | :19:24. | :19:28. | |
part in a plot but neither he nor his brother were Jihadists he says. | :19:29. | :19:40. | |
While Majeed's final days are unclear, other men are clear about | :19:41. | :19:44. | |
their intentions. Such talk has triggered alarm back home, police | :19:45. | :19:47. | |
have arrested more than 30 people this year in investigations related | :19:48. | :19:50. | |
to Syria, including four people today. The former Quan tan Mo bay | :19:51. | :20:01. | |
detainee Begg is one of those arrested. There is mounting concern | :20:02. | :20:07. | |
in Whitehall, one official says Syria is the biggest security | :20:08. | :20:15. | |
challenge since 9/11. MI5 is looking at hundreds of men in Syria. They | :20:16. | :20:20. | |
could return battle hardened prepared to bring terrorism to the | :20:21. | :20:24. | |
streets of Britain. I understand the desire for people to want to help, | :20:25. | :20:29. | |
to give humanitarian assistance. But that puts them at risk going out | :20:30. | :20:33. | |
there, and they may come into contact with extremist | :20:34. | :20:36. | |
organisations, sometimes linked to Al-Qaeda, the al-Nusra front, the so | :20:37. | :20:44. | |
called Islamic state of Iraq and Levant, how they might be | :20:45. | :20:48. | |
radicalised or brutalised by some of the experiences they see. At | :20:49. | :20:53. | |
Crawley's main mosque some worshippers are sceptical that | :20:54. | :20:57. | |
anyone fighting to bring down Syria's corrupt regime could be a | :20:58. | :21:01. | |
threat to Britain. As far as I'm aware no innocents were targeted. | :21:02. | :21:04. | |
You could question what he did, but I wouldn't say he's terrorising | :21:05. | :21:10. | |
anyone the people say it is an act of terrorism, who is he terrorising. | :21:11. | :21:16. | |
Mosque leaders say Muslims feel an obligation to help the Syrians, they | :21:17. | :21:21. | |
now fear if they do they will be criminalised. It is very confusing, | :21:22. | :21:29. | |
the message is not clear. Every day new messages come up and they came | :21:30. | :21:33. | |
too late. Ministers deny any confusion, for them it is quite | :21:34. | :21:37. | |
clear. People should not travel to Syria. Because of the risk that it | :21:38. | :21:44. | |
poses to them and how actually it makes matters worse, it does not | :21:45. | :21:49. | |
assist in terms of the Syrian people who have said clearly they don't | :21:50. | :21:53. | |
want foreign fighters but humanitarian aid. Black in Crawley, | :21:54. | :21:58. | |
Majeed's family are coming to terms with his death. For them he died | :21:59. | :22:03. | |
trying to do good, no matter how shocking it would appear to others. | :22:04. | :22:12. | |
A lot of people would struggle to understand how driving a truck full | :22:13. | :22:21. | |
of explosives into a target would help anybody If I can put it like | :22:22. | :22:25. | |
this, and if my brother had been a soldier and the people in that | :22:26. | :22:29. | |
prison. And the act of bravery he did, I know he would have been | :22:30. | :22:39. | |
awarded the posthumous Victoria Cross. My brother was not a | :22:40. | :22:42. | |
terrorist but a hero, he was not a threat to the British public and | :22:43. | :22:50. | |
never has been a threat to the British public. They can feed you, | :22:51. | :22:56. | |
lend you money and bury you, but the Co-Op apparently cannot run itself | :22:57. | :23:01. | |
efficiently. The man appointed to sort it all out resigned saying more | :23:02. | :23:06. | |
or less it was ungovernable. The poor old Co-Op, once a name for | :23:07. | :23:13. | |
non-conformist probity, had a leader in a drugs sting, another leader | :23:14. | :23:19. | |
walk out and apparent hedge funds with expensive suits. The latest man | :23:20. | :23:26. | |
to go, jumped or pushed. What he was trying to do was clear out the | :23:27. | :23:33. | |
maze-like structure of the Co-Op, as well as slim it down. He was going | :23:34. | :23:36. | |
to take power from members, they have a strange, unusual democracy in | :23:37. | :23:41. | |
the business, he made enemies trying to do that, not least that people | :23:42. | :23:44. | |
didn't like the fact he was going to be paid ?3 million to do so. I'm | :23:45. | :23:48. | |
told a small but disruptive group on the board essentially made it | :23:49. | :23:53. | |
impossible for him to stay. This afternoon he walked, having | :23:54. | :23:56. | |
threatened to resign. What is interesting is there are seven | :23:57. | :23:58. | |
different inquiries going on into what went wrong at the Co-Op, seven | :23:59. | :24:04. | |
of them. And I'm told that for some people his departure is seen as | :24:05. | :24:08. | |
having been a semi-deliberate move to cover the back sides of those who | :24:09. | :24:12. | |
may be discredits when what really went wrong goes public. Let's not be | :24:13. | :24:17. | |
inhibited by the seven inquiries, what has gone wrong at the Co-Op? A | :24:18. | :24:22. | |
group founded on 19th century ethics of graft, saving and looking after | :24:23. | :24:27. | |
your neighbours really got a bit greedy. In the last ten years they | :24:28. | :24:30. | |
started buying up lots of businesses, most notably taking on | :24:31. | :24:34. | |
the Britannia, with lots of bad debt. You ended up with a business | :24:35. | :24:39. | |
built around a democratic committee structure trying to run a sprawling | :24:40. | :24:43. | |
group owing lots of money to lots of people. I think there was a culture | :24:44. | :24:46. | |
clash and they couldn't cope with the business. They do now have a | :24:47. | :24:51. | |
financial plan to shore up the business, but there are still lots | :24:52. | :24:55. | |
of whispers in the city that they could end up on the brink again. We | :24:56. | :24:59. | |
expect them toy a nouns ?2 billion worth of losses in the next couple | :25:00. | :25:05. | |
of weeks. Their group's revenue last year was only -- to announce a ?2 | :25:06. | :25:09. | |
billion worth of losses in the next couple of weeks, they can't really | :25:10. | :25:13. | |
withstand more losses stemming the flow. The death of one of the best | :25:14. | :25:17. | |
known trade union leaders in Britain was announced today, last month Bob | :25:18. | :25:24. | |
Crow was vilified for taking a holiday in Brazil just before a | :25:25. | :25:27. | |
planned strike on the London Underground. Today even his enemies | :25:28. | :25:35. | |
were naming him a man of Prince penal and determination. The respect | :25:36. | :25:39. | |
for the dead is as old as the hills, but today there seemed to be | :25:40. | :25:43. | |
something else going o Joining Paul Merton tonight is the transport | :25:44. | :25:49. | |
leader who boasts he uses public transport every day, not if some | :25:50. | :25:54. | |
idiot calls a strike, please welcome Bob Crow. He may not have led the | :25:55. | :26:01. | |
biggest of trade unions but he had a name known the envy of some party | :26:02. | :26:05. | |
leaders. He was painted as a Boeing Yeoman and he loved it. We have to | :26:06. | :26:10. | |
stop now, because Bob has negotiated a ten-minute tea break! He He wasn't | :26:11. | :26:18. | |
a man of half measures or compromise, not what you would call | :26:19. | :26:23. | |
a mincer of words. I feel absolutely betrayed by this new Labour | :26:24. | :26:27. | |
Government, for not renationalising this rail network and stealing ahead | :26:28. | :26:32. | |
with the privatisation of London Underground. They called him | :26:33. | :26:36. | |
variously a dinosaur, a firebrand, a communist, no insult to him, frozen | :26:37. | :26:42. | |
commuters on strike bound railway platforms called him much worse. Yet | :26:43. | :26:49. | |
his unexpected death drew near universal acknowledgement he did his | :26:50. | :26:52. | |
job well. I didn't always agree with what he had to say. I will say this, | :26:53. | :26:57. | |
together with other union members Bob Crow unquestionably helped to | :26:58. | :27:02. | |
drive forward huge progress on London Underground and he leaves a | :27:03. | :27:07. | |
massive legacy behind. Other unions might wither, but during his dozen | :27:08. | :27:15. | |
years at the RMT, membership significantly increased. It wasn't | :27:16. | :27:18. | |
that he was unafraid, it was that he could start a fight in an empty | :27:19. | :27:22. | |
room. This was mere days before the last tube strike. Sit round a table, | :27:23. | :27:27. | |
explain about the new technology. I'm sorry Bob, there is a table to | :27:28. | :27:32. | |
be sat round by you and your team. But we can't do it with a gun to our | :27:33. | :27:38. | |
head. Yet for all his reputation as an old-style union prize fighter, | :27:39. | :27:42. | |
Bob Crow was media savvy and politically quite acute. All you | :27:43. | :27:46. | |
normally need to do in length land to become a national treasure sure | :27:47. | :27:49. | |
is to live long enough, he didn't get the chance. But in his death he | :27:50. | :27:57. | |
seems to have become one any way. Here to discuss Bob Crow's legacy is | :27:58. | :28:01. | |
the former Mayor of London, Ken Livingston, and with him the Times | :28:02. | :28:11. | |
columnist and Danny Finkelstein, Lord Fink | :28:12. | :28:17. | |
The strategy We admire people on the public stage | :28:18. | :28:27. | |
who stand up for the things they believe in and people are saying | :28:28. | :28:32. | |
nice things about him. Everyone has their own views, I didn't agree with | :28:33. | :28:36. | |
his politics and thought he was wrong-headed. On the day he dies | :28:37. | :28:39. | |
naturally people are respecting him, that is the good thing about this | :28:40. | :28:42. | |
country, people are decent to each other in these sorts of situations. | :28:43. | :28:46. | |
Part of it is being compute off in your prime, isn't it? It is, if he | :28:47. | :28:50. | |
hadn't died today he would be vilified for the stance he took. But | :28:51. | :28:54. | |
the big thing about Bob Crow is I can't think of any other group of | :28:55. | :28:59. | |
people in working-class jobs whose pay and conditions and pension | :29:00. | :29:03. | |
haven't been degraded over recent years. He fought to keep them with a | :29:04. | :29:09. | |
decent standard of living. He succeeded, and I think it is a | :29:10. | :29:13. | |
strong lesson to other trade unionists, it is no good pandering | :29:14. | :29:16. | |
to the establishment or trying to suck up, or hoping you will get a | :29:17. | :29:19. | |
deal. At the end of the day you have to stand up and fight or your | :29:20. | :29:24. | |
members' living standard will be degraded. Are you nodding there? I | :29:25. | :29:35. | |
thought it was He was an unusual figure. Bob Crow understood | :29:36. | :29:39. | |
capitalism, he cornered the market in railway workers and exploited the | :29:40. | :29:44. | |
monopoly he created. When he argued towards the end of his life he was | :29:45. | :29:49. | |
worth the money he was paid, he was quite right. But that was at | :29:50. | :29:51. | |
variance with the principle of equity. The money he was getting for | :29:52. | :29:54. | |
railway workers had to come from other workers travelling on the | :29:55. | :29:58. | |
tube. So that tension actually was one of the things that bedevilled | :29:59. | :30:03. | |
the Labour Party in the 1960s and 1970s, as they began to realise that | :30:04. | :30:08. | |
trade unionism pushing for wages for less well off people and vulnerable | :30:09. | :30:11. | |
people, a very good thing, is at variance of the broader principle of | :30:12. | :30:15. | |
equity, because it involves fighting for a sectional interest. Crow was a | :30:16. | :30:20. | |
really interesting figure and he will be analysed for a long time, | :30:21. | :30:24. | |
partly when people die shocking deaths and they are young that leads | :30:25. | :30:27. | |
sort of people to assess their careers when they are in mid-flight | :30:28. | :30:31. | |
I suppose that will happen. What did you make of the fact that Boris | :30:32. | :30:36. | |
Johnson sought out the first television camera he could in order | :30:37. | :30:41. | |
to say what a wonderful chap Bob Crow was? Having basically | :30:42. | :30:45. | |
disparaged him for several years and refusing to meet him. Bob Crow was | :30:46. | :30:50. | |
one of my supporters when I was running as an independent against | :30:51. | :30:55. | |
the new Labour machine. We had a joint campaign against Gordon | :30:56. | :31:00. | |
Brown's attempt to partially privatise the underground. Once I | :31:01. | :31:03. | |
had become the mayor and I had to negotiate we had rows and | :31:04. | :31:07. | |
disagreements. What I found good about Bob is he would come into the | :31:08. | :31:11. | |
room and tell you exactly what he wanted, there was never any | :31:12. | :31:15. | |
dissellbling, and dishonesty. We had some terrible rows but at the end of | :31:16. | :31:18. | |
the day the number of days lost under strikes in the six years I was | :31:19. | :31:24. | |
running the underground were cut by 98%, we did a fair deal. Stop | :31:25. | :31:29. | |
blowing your own trumpet, let's deal with the terrain of why people rush | :31:30. | :31:34. | |
out to be nice? It may be an element of hypocrisy, but it is benign. A | :31:35. | :31:39. | |
desire, you know, he has got a young family, he has died at a tragically | :31:40. | :31:45. | |
young age. I think of course an element of triumph for him because | :31:46. | :31:49. | |
he lived his life absolutely to full and all the way to the end. That is | :31:50. | :31:53. | |
the sort of triumph and strategy I'm sure he wouldn't want to be seen as | :31:54. | :31:58. | |
a tragic figure. It's a benign hypocrisy, I wouldn't want to live | :31:59. | :32:02. | |
in a society, I think Nigel Farage included an attack on the EU on his | :32:03. | :32:06. | |
tweet on Bob Crow. You know you don't want to be the first person to | :32:07. | :32:10. | |
make a minor political point when someone has just died. When Mrs | :32:11. | :32:15. | |
Thatcher died I was fairly moderate in my criticism, I stand remind | :32:16. | :32:19. | |
people every time she was re-elected the suicide rate doubled in the | :32:20. | :32:22. | |
following month. Because they have got relatives and family around. It | :32:23. | :32:26. | |
was classy to wait until now, I thought. I did write it up about 20 | :32:27. | :32:33. | |
years ago. The other thing about him he was personally very charming | :32:34. | :32:40. | |
wasn't he. He had a charisma and a reasonableness? I think lots of | :32:41. | :32:43. | |
people have said, that I didn't meet him for very long, you have to | :32:44. | :32:48. | |
preach to that. To me speaking as a middle-class Jew from Pinner, he was | :32:49. | :32:51. | |
quite aggressive, I suspect that was part of how he got what he wanted | :32:52. | :32:55. | |
from people. I found him personally sort of bristling with a bit of | :32:56. | :32:59. | |
menace. But I can imagine he was charming. You can't get to the top | :33:00. | :33:03. | |
of a union like that and make the kind of strong appeal, he was in | :33:04. | :33:08. | |
some tough fights. I do have to say I didn't think they were always | :33:09. | :33:12. | |
well-picked fights and they were in favour of a sectional interest on | :33:13. | :33:16. | |
behalf of which he did very well. But I, I would say this, and he | :33:17. | :33:19. | |
would expect me to say this I think that was at the expense of a broader | :33:20. | :33:24. | |
interest. What is so striking about Bob Crow, there are so few | :33:25. | :33:30. | |
working-class people still in leading positions in Britain. Years | :33:31. | :33:34. | |
ago in parliament and business there were. We have had a middle-class, | :33:35. | :33:38. | |
everyone has to be a graduate and all that, the good thing about Bob | :33:39. | :33:42. | |
Crow, having got that position he carried on living his life as he had | :33:43. | :33:46. | |
before. He didn't leave his council flat to buy a house in Hampstead or | :33:47. | :33:52. | |
have a chauffeur-driven car and use transport, he was confident and | :33:53. | :33:55. | |
happy in his working-class culture. We have seen the working-class | :33:56. | :34:01. | |
culture being demonised, it is all Benefits Street, and the respect | :34:02. | :34:07. | |
that post-war generation of politicians had for the | :34:08. | :34:09. | |
working-class because they had fought with them in the Second World | :34:10. | :34:12. | |
War and they saw their courage, that has been striped out of society. | :34:13. | :34:17. | |
There is lots of conservatism to admire in someone who has an | :34:18. | :34:21. | |
appreciation of their identity and see it as a position. I can't agree | :34:22. | :34:24. | |
with him living in a council house, this is not the moment for beige | :34:25. | :34:27. | |
argument about that. I think there was more to it than simply an | :34:28. | :34:31. | |
identity issue. But nevertheless, his private in his identity and | :34:32. | :34:35. | |
willingness to exemptionify was obviously part of why he will be | :34:36. | :34:40. | |
well known and highly thought of by lots of people and controversial to | :34:41. | :34:46. | |
lots of others. Thank you very much. The Malaysian airliner that | :34:47. | :34:49. | |
disappeared four days ago still hasn't been found. Despite the area | :34:50. | :34:52. | |
of the search being doubled. The plain fact is no-one has any idea | :34:53. | :34:59. | |
where the aircraft and the 239 human beings on board are. Flying is such | :35:00. | :35:04. | |
an intrinsic part of modern life, many of us prefer to ignore that | :35:05. | :35:09. | |
nagging anxiety. How do I know that this thing I'm sitting inside won't | :35:10. | :35:14. | |
just fall out of the sky. Simply not being controlled is troubling | :35:15. | :35:17. | |
enough, leaving aside the possibility that you might suddenly | :35:18. | :35:23. | |
disappear without a trace. The My guest is here. You are writer in | :35:24. | :35:26. | |
residence at Heathrow weren't you? I spent a good month at Heathrow. Long | :35:27. | :35:32. | |
enough I would have said! Have you any idea as to why this is so | :35:33. | :35:36. | |
troubling, this idea of a plane and all its passengers disappearing? I | :35:37. | :35:41. | |
think we are recalibrating risk. We assume, largely because of | :35:42. | :35:44. | |
smartphones, that wherever we go we are being watched by satellite in | :35:45. | :35:47. | |
the sky. That is not true. We are being flattered by our mobile | :35:48. | :35:51. | |
technology. The earth remains vast, there are lots of mysteries, and | :35:52. | :35:55. | |
what happens to this plane is what happens in lots of areas of medical | :35:56. | :35:58. | |
science and other areas of science where there are still mysteries, not | :35:59. | :36:03. | |
everything is answerable or under our control. It is a terribly | :36:04. | :36:07. | |
humiliating event for human beings who like to feel they have mastered | :36:08. | :36:11. | |
the map, they know where stuff is, this is worse than the marry sell | :36:12. | :36:21. | |
lest, -- Marie Celeste, it is a lesson in hubris and had you malty. | :36:22. | :36:26. | |
How much -- humility. How much is it to do with the fact of flight? There | :36:27. | :36:32. | |
is no doubt flying remains an imaginatively extraordinary thing to | :36:33. | :36:36. | |
do. We are earth bound creatures to take to the skies is a daunting and | :36:37. | :36:43. | |
hubrisistic thing to do. Why do we buy all the duty-free and the | :36:44. | :36:48. | |
rigmarole and shows on planes. It remains for humans a daunting thing. | :36:49. | :36:51. | |
We have erased a lot of the risk, but some risk still remains. We feel | :36:52. | :36:56. | |
some of that risk just intuitively. There is nothing more natural than | :36:57. | :37:01. | |
the fear of flying, it is not warranted by accident statistics, | :37:02. | :37:05. | |
but by the sheer implausibilty of being at 35,000 feet. So we feel an | :37:06. | :37:09. | |
echo of that when we feel anxious, trapped in one of those tubes. Sheer | :37:10. | :37:17. | |
peculiarity of a plane disappearing though, that is really weird isn't | :37:18. | :37:20. | |
it? The news wants answers immediately. It hasn't disappeared, | :37:21. | :37:24. | |
we just don't know the answer yet. There are lots of things to which we | :37:25. | :37:28. | |
don't yet know the answer. Because we are so telescoped in and want | :37:29. | :37:32. | |
answers to everything immediately. We think a couple of days is a | :37:33. | :37:36. | |
momentous amount of time. 20, 30 years ago, when things disappeared, | :37:37. | :37:41. | |
ships, planes, one waited, and it might be a week. It is not that | :37:42. | :37:45. | |
long, it will show up. It hasn't disappeared, all traces can't be | :37:46. | :37:49. | |
gone, it will be found. It will just take longer than the news cycle. It | :37:50. | :37:53. | |
is a measure of how much we generally know. We know a lot and a | :37:54. | :37:56. | |
lot of questions are answered for us on the hour. This one is going to | :37:57. | :38:00. | |
take a lot long Tory resolve. That is deeply puzzling, but we need to | :38:01. | :38:06. | |
be more modest about our capacities: It is also putting yourself in the | :38:07. | :38:14. | |
hands of somebody else. You are up there and some people understand why | :38:15. | :38:18. | |
a plane flies and some don't, but you are not at the controls? I found | :38:19. | :38:28. | |
out the more you know about flying the scarier it gets. The less you | :38:29. | :38:32. | |
know you think it is done by machines and whatever, what you | :38:33. | :38:36. | |
realise is when you read pilots' forums it is a heavy and physical | :38:37. | :38:40. | |
business. Landing a plane. Pilots will talk about a "difficult | :38:41. | :38:45. | |
landing". That is scary for a passenger, what is a very difficult | :38:46. | :38:48. | |
landing? It remains a challenging job. It is extraordinary that | :38:49. | :38:53. | |
tonight in western Europe some 2,000 planes landed without incident at | :38:54. | :38:56. | |
airports across the land mass. We don't give those a second thought. | :38:57. | :38:59. | |
Very owe cruellyly something like this goes wrong. The stairs remain | :39:00. | :39:03. | |
much riskier, the shower much more deadly than any Malaysian airliner. | :39:04. | :39:09. | |
At the end of the day this is a giant momento, it is reminding us, | :39:10. | :39:13. | |
life is brief, death can come suddenly, you could die of a stroke | :39:14. | :39:18. | |
standing up in a studio, we don't expect it because we have such faith | :39:19. | :39:23. | |
in our machines. Our machines do not guarantee us total immunity from | :39:24. | :39:26. | |
death. It may come this evening. We need to be cautious, kind to one | :39:27. | :39:30. | |
another while we are alive and modest about our capacities. Thank | :39:31. | :39:36. | |
you very much, thanks. Scarcely a day goes by without one melancholy | :39:37. | :39:41. | |
bulletin or another from Iraq, another killing or suicide bombing. | :39:42. | :39:45. | |
But there is one corner of the country to which people are heading | :39:46. | :39:50. | |
to get away from it all. The city of Urbil, capital of Iraqi consider | :39:51. | :39:54. | |
disstand is famed for night life. Since it is within striking distance | :39:55. | :39:58. | |
of the border with the Islamic Republic of Iran, it is something of | :39:59. | :40:04. | |
a magnet for young Iranians desperate for forbidden fruit like | :40:05. | :40:19. | |
dancing and distilled liquor. For young Iranians desperate for | :40:20. | :40:20. | |
forbidden fruit like dancing and distilled liquor. Nothing tastes | :40:21. | :40:23. | |
sweeter than freedom, even for a few days. Far from the eyes of the | :40:24. | :40:26. | |
Iranian morality police, young Iranians flock to Urbil. It is a | :40:27. | :40:33. | |
quiet corner of northern Iraq, close to the Iranian border. And there has | :40:34. | :40:40. | |
been an explosion of shopping malles and nightclubs. This is Iraq, but | :40:41. | :40:47. | |
not as we know it. Here there are more cranes than Minerates, more | :40:48. | :40:57. | |
buildings than mosques. This has become the fun place in the region, | :40:58. | :41:00. | |
especially for young Iranians who live a few hours away over the | :41:01. | :41:05. | |
border. It is very easy for those Iranians to come here. It is not | :41:06. | :41:13. | |
far, and they don't need a visa. When the sun goes down the young | :41:14. | :41:20. | |
Iranians come out. Nasila, not her real name is from Tehran. She comes | :41:21. | :41:28. | |
here frequently. The Iranians who come to Kurdistan, they drink too | :41:29. | :41:35. | |
much, because they can find even in the desert alcohol, they show | :41:36. | :41:43. | |
themselves with the short dress and they just think freedom is only | :41:44. | :41:50. | |
that. This is something between me and cousins when we came to | :41:51. | :41:56. | |
Kurdistan, I wrote "what you want might make you cry, but what you | :41:57. | :42:03. | |
need might pass you by". She's going to one of the most exclusive | :42:04. | :42:07. | |
nightclubs to join her Iranian friends. It is around $10 a drink. | :42:08. | :42:18. | |
Hamid is from Iran, he's a DJ. He has been in many underground parties | :42:19. | :42:23. | |
in Iran, but likes to come to Urbil where he can party | :42:24. | :43:03. | |
These young Iranians are doing something that many in the west take | :43:04. | :43:09. | |
for granted, but for them it is a big deal. A lot of people from Iran | :43:10. | :43:15. | |
are joining us in the past year or so, more and more have been | :43:16. | :43:22. | |
visiting. Especially in the holidays, on the national holidays. | :43:23. | :43:28. | |
And it is not just Iranians who are flocking to Iraqi Kurdistan, with | :43:29. | :43:31. | |
its rapid construction and liberal ethos it is attracting visitors from | :43:32. | :43:39. | |
all over the world. But Hamed is worried his Government might prevent | :43:40. | :43:43. | |
Iranians from coming here in the future. | :43:44. | :44:09. | |
Hamed and Nasila represent a new generation of young Iranians, they | :44:10. | :44:16. | |
won't accept strict Islamic rules of the clerics. | :44:17. | :44:36. | |
Well that's just about it for tonight. Let's have a quick look at | :44:37. | :44:43. | |
some of tomorrow morning's front pages. As expected Ed Miliband's | :44:44. | :44:47. | |
announcement on the EU referendum which may or may not be promised is | :44:48. | :44:51. | |
on the front page of the Financial Times. | :44:52. | :45:35. | |
That's almost all for tonight, before we go the latest evidence | :45:36. | :45:41. | |
that comedy is shouldering out journalism. The American spoof chat | :45:42. | :45:50. | |
show presenter Zag Galofiniakas, won an exclusive interview with Barack | :45:51. | :45:56. | |
Obama, it appears in the Funny or Die website. You know what I would | :45:57. | :46:01. | |
do if I was President, Mr President. I would make same-sex divorce | :46:02. | :46:06. | |
illegal, and then see how bad they want it? I think that's not why you | :46:07. | :46:10. | |
are President, that is a good thing. You said if you had a son you | :46:11. | :46:13. | |
wouldn't let him play football. What makes you think he would want to | :46:14. | :46:16. | |
play football, what if he was a nerd like you. Do you think a woman like | :46:17. | :46:21. | |
Michelle would marry a nerd, why don't you ask her whether she thinks | :46:22. | :46:26. | |
I'm a nerd. Can I? No, I'm not going to let her near you. Which country | :46:27. | :46:31. | |
were you rooting for in the winter Olympics? Seriously? | :46:32. | :46:33. | |
Pretty cold out there in northern areas with patches of fog around, a | :46:34. | :46:46. | |
grey start further south. I'm hopeful the cloud will get nibbled | :46:47. | :46:50. | |
away by the sunshine. Most of us can look forward | :46:51. | :46:51. |