12/03/2014 Newsnight

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News stories with Jeremy Paxman. Including David Miliband on Syria, the national minimum wage rise, Sol Campbell, Mark Urban returns to Iraq and our attitude to horses.

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precious little about it. Three years on from the start of the


Syrian Civil War, the greatest humanitarian crisis on earth just


gets worse. Listen to the former Foreign Secretary. What I think this


has become is the defining collective failure of this century


so far. Also tonight, we talk to the former England defender, Sol


Campbell about whether today's footballers are vain, overpaid


pre-Madonnas. We return to Baghdad to see if there is a chance of peace


breaking out. This is where Al-Qaeda flooded into the city in 2006 and


declared it a liberated zone. That sparked a huge fight. They may look


noble and grazeful, but is the life of a horse really so precious. Three


years ago this week a group of citizens in Syria decided they


weren't prepared to put up with a dictator any longer. They had seen


other regimes topple to the Arab Spring, but the Syrians weren't so


fortunate. President Assad unleashed his army and soon there was full


scale Civil War. The dead numbing to many thousands and displaced into


millions, and diplomatic pressure for Russia to abandon its nasty


little ally has failed. David Miliband now runs the International


Rescue committee, we have been talking to him about the lessons to


be learned. How did this become this? Syria is


the crisis of our generation. Over 100,000 dead, half the country


forced from its home, and hardest to believe, a crisis now entering its


fourth year. Did you ever think that we would be in something this bad


for this long? No. If I had been here with you three years ago and


have said nine million people displaced from their homes, three


million in neighbouring countries, 130,000 dead, 1500 kids assassinated


by snipers and victims of Government prisons, you would have said there


will be an overwhelming outcry and it wouldn't be acceptable in the


21st century. I think it is terrible we have reached this stage,


seemingly a war without limit and end and law. Every day, as we are


doing this interview international humanitarian law is being broken and


the progress of certainly the last 60 years since the Second World War,


in establishing norms of war that protect civilians is being rolled


back. Why do you think it has been, in your words "acceptable"? I think


what has happened is the political divisions between the great powers


and the regional powers, between Russia and the US and Iran and Saudi


Arabia, those political divisions have infected the humanitarian


dialogue. I have to be very, very careful about the extent to which I


can speculate about the wisdom or otherwise of military engagment.


What I think this has become is the defining collective failure of this


century so far. We all remember Rwanda over the 1990s, we remember


Bosnia, the cities of Syria, the Aleppos, the Homs, will go down


against the Sarajevos in a terrible litany. One of the greatest blocks


to intervention has been Russia, in the form of a leader who has not


relinquished power for nearly 15 years, indeed has been exerting it


in the Ukraine as we speak. Looking back, did they have too strong a


hand? I think they made a bet that has proved to be correct, which is


that President Assad had more going for him than many thought. They bet


that he wouldn't fall in the way that President Mubarak did and they


proved to be right. Has the USA others -- and others been too supine


on this? The attack and narrative in America is that President Obama has


been too weak. I see something different. There isn't a military


response in the Crimea, and if you mean by "strong" he should have had


a military response in crime ma, no-one would seriously say that.


What I see is something different, not a strong-week speck -- a


strong-weak spectrum, but a fragmented international community.


Future generations might not take this idea of fragmentation, they


will say why was Russia so readily indulged for so long? I don't think


it is indulgence is the right thing, there is a lot of fury, the question


is, the point about the fragmentation is it is only economic


unity that actually is the root to pressure. The thing about dealing


with and working with the Russian Government is that they want


respect, but they respect strength. If it is all about the economy


stupid, and hitting Russia where it hurts, how are we doing on sanctions


here? He offers a stark warning to this Government? There is a danger


that people want a quick fix. And there isn't a quick fix. This is a


long game. One of my reflections on being in the states, looking back


here, and thinking about American politics is that the premium on


short-term economics can drive out the long-term political strategy.


Where as actually what you need is a long-term economic strategy to back


the long-term political strategy. When it was made clear that David


Cameron said he wouldn't hit Russians, for example, in the City


of London? Well it is not my place to say, when I talked about


fragmentation of the international response, if every country is just


thinking how do we defend our own patch, not how are we going to unify


so that we're presenting a common front, then obviously it is much


more difficult to be taken seriously. Should military


intervention happen in Syria, as it did in Iraq under the Government in


which he served? He's loathe to say. But when I ask him why he thinks it


never happened, the answer is stark. It is obvious there is a post-Iraq,


post-Afghanistan, and post-financial crisis situation in western


countries, where the limits of military power have been widely


demonstrated. The economic constraints, the economic austerity


is very clear and, look, the phrase that is used in America is "nation


building at home". Limits of military power means Iraq and


Afghanistan didn't work? I see all of this now through the lens of the


work we do. We work in 3,800 Afghan villages and we have just done a


survey of our staff and the people who they work with. What they tell


me is they are worried that the gains they have made won't be


preserved. I'm being told to wrap, but on the day the leader of the


opposition, yes his brother, is making a speech on Europe, ruling


out a referendum in 2017 it seems rude to go without asking what he


thinks of it? I think it is sensible. Because Britain has a


recovery to build and the central task for the next Government is


obviously to build that recovery and the idea that half way through the


parliament there would be a referendum, I don't think that many


people 2017, when you have a German and French election, I think what he


has done is sensible and statesman-like and really right.


Let's talk about Syria now, Baroness Amos is in charge of humanitarian


affairs at the UN. She has taken an active role in the European


humanitarian response to the crisis. The world looks to you for hope, I


suppose, why can't you deliver it? For a whole variety of reasons. It


is something that I think about every day. Because I think the world


looks to the U and expects the United Nations to solve problems.


But we also forget that the United Nations is made up of all the


different countries of the world, so all the differences that those


countries have, they bring to the United Nations and the table. We see


it being played out in Syria. If you are trying to formulate a


humanitarian response though, it must be incredibly frustrating to


find that the wheels of diplomacy grind so incredibly slowly. It was


three years this has been going on? I think what's really frustrating


for us on the humanitarian side is of course we know that the wheels of


diplomacy, trying to find a political solution can be slow. But


on the humanitarian side where you have people dying every day, we have


seen those terrible pictures coming out of Yamouk and other parts of


Syria. You have got millions of people displaced, it is almost as if


people have become numb by the numbers. Over nine million people


inside Syria needing help. It is the size of a small country in Europe.


So the frustrating thing is that should not be political, that should


not be politicised, helping people, getting aid in, there are rules that


we have which should be applied when there is a conflict. You know,


ordinary children, women, men, shouldn't be used in a conflict like


this to make sure that it is sustained and it goes on and that's


the thing we find most frustrating that we can't get to the people who


need help. That it's over a year that over two million people have


not had medical aid, food, things like that. I think it is an absolute


scandal. Are both sides using this humanitarian aid question to


political ends, or can you apportion blame? Well yes, the different sides


are, but I do think you have to look at the numbers. When I say that you


have got two-and-a-half million people in what we call


hard-to-reach-place, we may have got to those places once. But there are


about 240,000 people in places we called "besieged", for example we


have not been able to get in with aid and they have not been able to


get out. The majority of those people are in areas controlled by


Government. So it is very hard to say that there is an equivalence


when you look at the numbers, but all of the different sides, the


different opposition groups as well as the Government use this tactic,


sieging communities as a kind of weapon of war. How long could it go


on? Well, it has gone on for three years, we're no nearer finding a


political solution, the numbers have grown and grown and grown. I first


went to Syria two years ago. I went to Homs, I saw the destruction in an


area called Baba Ama, it has been repeated many times since. Then we


were talking about a million people needing help. Now it is over nine


million. I suppose we can watch collectively the destruction of an


entire country over many more years, unless we get more courage from the


international community and unless we find a way of finding a political


solution. But both sides are just callous in this matter? Oh, if you


look at the human rights abuses that you are seeing, spread across the


country, absolutely. Now in a fit of large guess, Vince Cable


conenvironmneted today that the national minimum wage will rise


above the rate of inflation. It adds up to 19p extra an hour. Mind you


people have been getting poorer for the last several years as the wage


went up by less than the rate of inflation. Valuable ammunition for


the Labour Party in its cost of living campaign. Hard to recall now


that when it was proposed the minimum wage was a controversial


idea. Tomorrow the Resolution Foundation releases a report


authored by the minimum wage's architect, which examines whether it


is still fit for purpose. People, production and pay, cogs in


our economic machine. 15 years ago a new component, a minimum wage was


plumbed in, now it is not running as smoothly as it should. From October


it is ?6. 50 an hour, a 40-hour week means ?13,000 a year, after tax and


national insurance that is take home of ?231 a week. Katie gets up at


four. 45am to go to work cleaning Government offices. After rent,


bills and transport, just living, ?6. 54 is not enough to make ends


meet. It is impossible, we spend the money in three or four days, you


work hard and you can have a good life, always you need to think about


what you are going to do with every penny. And the rate was designed to


be the bare minimum, not the benchmark for millions. 1. 2 million


are on the actual wage. Another 1. 4 within 50p. But there are five


million on low pay under the international definition around ?7.


70. Look at this, that spike shows more and more of our wages clustered


around the minimum level. When the minimum wage was introduced, it was


intended very much as a red line that would never be crossed. What


has happened is the ripple effects have been smaller than everyone


thought and employers have treated it as going rate, and they take it


as a guide to what they should be paying. Why should business fix


that? Pay any more than they have to? The inventor of the minimum wage


wants firms to cough up a higher rate for London. And a new


Government target to pull more workers out of low pay. Most


controversially the architect of the minimum wage wants the authorities


to point the finger at employers who could afford to pay more but choose


not to. The idea to name and shame business into raising wages, but is


that realistic or even fair. Like thousands of businesses, this food


distributor doesn't just have spare cash lying around. More rules, more


complication, there is very tight margins in the profit we make. It is


very big competition. Obviously the more wages are going up, the margin


goes lower and the customer always wants to pay less. Ministers want


the minimum wage eventually to regain the value it lost in the


downturn, the idea that started as temporary has survived and become a


permanent part of our economy. But it hasn't removed the trap of low


pay for millions. It may be broke, but it is not straight forward how


to fix it. Well Sir Jamie Bain, the architect of the minimum wage when


it was introduced is in the Belfast studio now. Did you expect it to


last this long Sir George? I don't think I did, when it came in 1998 we


made a recommendation, it was simply set up for a year, and I'm quite


surprised but delighted that 15 years later it is there. Even more


delighted that all political parties now accept it and indeed want it


increased. Has it achieved what you hoped? It has achieved a good deal


what I hoped. It has abolished extreme low pay. Usually that is


defined as being half the median. Something below about ?5. 75 an


hour. When it came in about a third of labour force was in this


position. Today it is about 7%. So it has abolished extreme low pay but


not low pay. The problem now is the people as your commentary suggested


who are on the minimum wage and as the commentary suggested there is a


spike there. But who are way below the two thirds median, ?7. 7.71 an


hour, which is Antarth national definition of low pay. It is that


group which we failed to do anything for. The medium low paid, if you


like, not the extreme low paid. And indeed inequality has got worse


since it came? Inequality has got worse. Anybody who is concerned


about the stability of society, of course this is not just true in the


UK, it is true pretty much across the western world. Those at the top


of the income distribution, one always mentions bankers, of course,


but there is lots of others. They have done very much better. The


rewards of globalisation seem to be going to them. But penalising those


at the bottom. I think it is pretty clear from evidence that societies


that are more egalitarian tend to do more than those who have quite


marked and in some ways these days quite obscene differences in the


ratio of high pay to low pay. These consequences that you are talking


about, maybe they are collateral consequences of what happened. They


don't make you think maybe this minimum wage is just too much of a


blunt instrument? It is too much of a blunt instrument, that's exactly


the problem. I mean the metaphor I like to use is that of a garment, in


fact the metaphor is quite a good one, because the tailoring trade is


one of the low paid areas. And since it is a single rate and you have to


set it, so that it doesn't cause mass unemployment. A hence it has to


be set relatively low. If you set it say at the living wage, which some


people argue, which is you know about ?7. 65 an hour, you would


cause massive unemployment in areas like retail, clothing, social care


for elderly people, and so on. Yet, on the other hand, there is a whole


range of sectors, there is only about five sectors where this is


true. There is a whole range of sectors where you could actually


easily afford to pay more than the minimum wage as it is set. There is


something to be said, and that is what we are saying, for having it


varied. First of all, not by region, but we have a long tradition in the


UK as treating London as a special case. We think there is a special


case for London to have a higher national minimum. We also think


there is a special case for publishing after the low-pay


commission has done its research and homework a right that particular


sector, other than those at the very bottom, could afford to pay. An


indication of that rate. Thank you very much for joining us. The former


England footballer Sol Campbell is standing by his claim of racial


discrimination. He said if he hadn't been black he might have been


captain of England. Far more than the three occasions in a teyear


career that it did occur. Other players, including black players are


saying he's talking nonsense to sell his autobuy off fee. Is he? --


biography. Let's look back at some of the career highs and lows. In a


sport that has cheapened hatred like no other, few players have sparked


such extreme emotion as Sol Campbell. Football knows no transfer


than a sensational one, but when in 2001, Campbell, then captain of


Spurs, defected four miles down the road to play for Arsenal, the sport


held its breath. In And with good reason, Campbell's return to his old


ground yielded almost unparalleled abuse from those who had once adored


him. For no other reason and deciding to change jobs, Sol


Campbell had become one of the game's most controversial players.


If the abuse was hurting, it didn't appear to show. Campbell was to star


as his new club won repeated trophies. For the England national


side he was a could loss giant, playing in six major tournamentings.


He was a complex character. It was at half time in this game that he


asked to be substituted before driving away from the ground while


the game continued, and heading for Brussels. What was going on in his


mind? In retirement his focus has turned to the racism he sees in the


sport. Sol Campbell is here now. If this sport was institutionally


racist you wouldn't have done as well as you have done, would you?


I'm not saying that, all I'm saying is when my book is a reflection of


what I have been through and how I see football. It is my side of the


storyCEDYELLOW I'm not saying that, all I'm saying is when my book is a


reflection of what I have been through and how I see football. It


is my side of the story. It is how I see football. When you see Paul Ince


and others occupying the role of captain, it doesn't seem to be true


this allegation against black players? For me personally, if I


look at it, if I was say white, I would have captained my country more


than three times for sure. There are extracts, the ten-year thing, that


was blown out. I'm saying I would have captained more times over ten


years. But it is, that is my take on it. It is possible, of course, they


just didn't make you captain more often because they judged you were


not psychologically best-suited to that job? I disagree on that because


I have captained my club at a young age at Tottenham. I have easily


captained Arsenal. I captained Portsmouth to FA Cup victory. All


those problems which happened later on, that was when I was 31, I'm


talking about mid-20s. You are absolutely convinced of this are


you? I think it is not as blatant, and not institutional, but for me it


is almost like a subconscious kind of thing. If I give you examples


there was a sports committee set up by the FA I was saying well the BBC


actually came to me and said who is on here. I have looked on there,


there is one thing which sticks out to me, there was no-one of black


origin on there, that is why the BBC came to me and asked me to say


something about it. Then the committee is already set, I have


said something on TV, obviously it is retracted and Rio Ferdinand is on


there saying it was not really completed. But for me it is almost


why would you want to do that if you want to make a statement. You would


actually put someone, if you want a forward-thinking kind of FA you


would put something black in the beginning and put the rest of the


committee on there. It is almost like backtracking, it is a very


delayed reaction. Can we talk a little bit about the world of the


professional football player. Jose Mourinho said the other day they


were vain, overpaid celebrity-obsessed, is that a


picture you recognise? I don't think they are all vain and overpaid, I


think it is horses for courses. Every club has their level. There


will only be certain clubs able to pay the vast sums, and those players


some of them are worth it, because it is a ten-year career. But,


footballers are, they work hard, they are under pressure, it is a


business, it is an entertainment business. As I said every club has


their level. You would advise a young man with the talent to go into


the world? The beautiful thing about football is talent always comes


through. You also have to deal with the sort of publish that the fans


will sometimes shout at you, if, as in your case, they get the wrong


idea? I don't mean the wrong idea do I, who cares what your sexual


orientation is, why is that a cause for abuse? My abuse was many things,


it was homophobic, it was racial, I have had everything as a black man


growing up. And a young black man growing up in football. I always


looked beyond that and I said to myself football is going to be the


number one for me. And I will not allow those kinds of comments or


that type of attitude towards me or abuse as I had as an early young boy


starting out in Tottenham stopped me from living my dream.


Would you give different advice to a young black man as to a youngs white


man? No. As I said before talent will always take you through into


football. That is the beautiful thing about football and most


sports. All lent will always shine through and take you as far as you


want to go. Thank you very much. As we saw earlier the west's


inability or unwillingness to get involved in Syria reflects a mood in


western capitals that is itself greatly influenced by other foreign


adventures, most obviously is the intervention in Iraq, for by 179


British servicemen and women gave their lives, along with thousands of


Americans and others. It is now nearly three years since that


operation finished. But if it was supposed to bring peace and


prosperity, it wasn't a great success, at least 1500 people have


already been killed in violence there this year. We have been in and


out of troubled areas for Iraq, our correspondent has just been back to


Durra, once dubbed the most dangerous place in Iraq. Let's see


what has been achieved? In Baghdad these days several neighbourhoods


are particularly tense, the police patrol with caution. They are


enclaves where Sunnis live, in a city that not long ago lived through


a nightmare of sectarian violence. And now the fear is it could happen


again. We didn't get into Fallujah because they are in state of open


revolt. This part of Baghdad, Durra, it is a particularly interesting


place now to look at the tension between the Sunni community. This is


where Al-Qaeda flooded into the outskirts of the city in 2006 and


declared it a liberated zone. That sparked a huge fight. The first


Newsnight film in Dura was made seven years ago. When violence was


at its height. The Americans sent troops into the market to turn the


situation round and they came under constant attack. It's time to rock


'n' roll. To reach Dura you cross the Tigris, south of central


Baghdad. These days the Americans are long gone. And the area is


surrounded by police checkpoints. Since Shi'ites dominate the force


that means many Sunnis feel besieged. The atmosphere of


normality that took years to achieve is now threatened. Dura is famous


for its sprawling markets, you can buy everything, from river carp to


spices, dresses or even televisions. The great metric here for the


Americans of their success always was how many shops were opening. In


the darkest moment of what was happening in 2006 it went down to a


couple of dozen. Then they got it up to a few hundred, then a year ago


there was said to be 20,000 stall holders this market. It really is


one of the biggest in Baghdad. But now, as a result of what has


happened in the last few months, some of them have started getting


into financial trouble again and some of the stalls have closed. It


was here on Christmas Day that a series of bombs killed 26 people and


shattered the peace. Were the bombs aimed at local Christians or the


Sunnis who are Dura's majority, or simply that nobody knew. They


traumatised this community. Is TRANSLATION: There were wounded and


injured people, I don't remember how many wounded and lots of martyrs.


There were dead shopkeepers, there was happen. Hasim and his son,


Gasham and his mother passing by, God have mercy on them. I cam across


bodies from my area, ten of them. We really hope it will get better, the


situation generally in Baghdad is now getting worse, because these


incidents, carried out by gangs in Anbar province and others are felt


by Baghdad. We're able to drop in on old friends, people we met making


our three previous Dura films. This is an architect Tariq. I would not


go to a very congested area with people. Because I don't know when


the bombing will start. You can pay $100 to somebody to plant one of


these bombs. He would be pleased to spend it on drinks or other things,


they don't care. They are Iraqi citizens or Iraqi people and they


have no value. If he lives or dies. They lost their value. We don't have


the sense of citizenship as you have in the UK and Europe. Dura today is


a more prosperous place than when the Americans were here. They


started the turn around, and the Iraqi Government consolidated it. So


why are things going wrong now. Measures that brought peace have


been reversed. Tell him soon the SOI will be paid by the national police


and not the US at all. On previous visits we saw how the Americans


formed a Sunni militia, the awakening forces, hundreds signed up


for it, many former insurgents. They put walls in to separate Dura from


neighboing Shi'ite communities. They got on top of Al-Qaeda but never


fully killed it off. Is Al-Qaeda finished here or could they come


back? Come back, no, no, no. No turning back, no. Finished 100%? No,


maybe 90% he said. For the Sheikh, leading a Sunni militia, paid by the


Americans, it was bound to be dangerous work. What happened to


Sheikh Ali is a couple of years after we spoke to him he was


murdered as he left the mosque here where he was Iman. By people from


Al-Qaeda. And the Awakening Forces were gradually ground down. And on


the one side they were attacked by Al-Qaeda extremists within their own


Sunni community t on the other hand the Government turned its back on


them, paid off most of them and let them go. Putting in their place


uniformed police forces from outside the area to try to ensure security


instead. But that link with the community had been broken. Today the


walls remain around mosques, police stations and in a couple of other


places. Elsewhere they are gone. And critically Iraq's Shi'ite-dominated


Government want theed Sunni approximately ligsia to wither. Once


several hundred in Dura, it is now a few dozen. We called in on the


commander, when we met him in 2 OK 00 -- in 2008, he predicted the


forces would be squeezed and the police would suffer and now says I


told you so. TRANSLATION: We were hoping they could become police in


their neighbourhoods, that would have been best, they could have


controlled the areas and no incidents could have occurred. These


days Iraqis are gearing up for election, the Prime Minister's pitch


for relax rests on security. Major General Catum admits there are


problems in provinces like Anbar, he insists insurgency does not return


to Baghdad. TRANSLATION: No, the information we have is that people


have started to look towards the elections and absolutely won't


accept such acts. The state has begun to strengthen and people also


have more self-confidence after experiencing explosions and harm


from Al-Qaeda and criminals. But today combat has broken out in


western Iraqi cities like Fallujah. Groups linked to Al-Qaeda battle the


army there. In Baghdad Sunni opposition is underground, but


recent bombings have stoked public fear. It is felt in Dura, in places


like the central kindergarten school. We filmed Leyla, McMahon


Leyla, as the kids call her, back to times when pupils had to talk past


bodies to get to school. Things have got better, but now she worries not


only will elections do nothing to help her community, but they will


trigger more violence. TRANSLATION: Security is the most


important thing for people, in the period of security we did have, you


saw for yourself that development took place, people felt safe and


went out in the street, they went to work. Now many are leaving their


homes in dangerous a a -- areas, in Fallujah they have left, people are


afraid in our neighbourhood, they don't know what will happen. As the


day's trading end, Dura's famous market empties. To be guarded by the


only member of the local militia we saw in days here. The deserted


market remind us what things used to be like in darker times Knowing the


potential for violence of these people here, the way it is policed


and the strong sense of kinship between the people in Dura and the


west, which is in open revolt. They are lucky not to have more trouble


here already. Already Baghdad is facing a new wave of bombings and


assassinations. As April's elections approach, the city is braced for the


train of sectarian and political violence to gather pace. Animal


rights activists have had steam coming out of their ears all day,


after a comment by Ruby Walsh about the death of a horse at Cheltenham.


The Daily Mail reported him saying you can replace a horse but not a


human being. They claim it shows callousness. Famously there are more


horses' ars th horses. Maybe Ruby Walsh is one of them. Can there be


equivalence between a human and animal. With us to discuss is the


editor of horse and hound, and a problem horse trainer. ? That is


very badly written, you are trainer of problem horses? Yes. Do you


understand why there is all this kerfuffle about what Ruby Walsh


said? I can understand, and I would like to see the whole interview and


speak to him about what was actually said. I know from my experience


jockies have to have a relationship with a horse in order to get that


last little per cent that takes them across the line first. So you know


AP McCoy, I read a piece in the Times last Sunday cried when


Synchronised got killed at Aintree. They do have a huge connection with


their horses. Are you surprised by the Kerr roughly? I think he was


responding that whenever it is Aintree or Cheltenham, these animal


rights activists and types of organisations come out waiting for


any event, any ill-advised comment, any horse fatality that they can go


from that, responding to that for racing. He will have a huge


relationship with the horses he rides, we don't just get another one


out of the drawer, that is not what he meant. There is clearly a


difference between a horse and human being? Absolutely. Horses are


wonderfully intelligent and emotional teachers. They do have


emotions, they recognise patterns and learn to do incredibly clever


things. I don't think they have a sense of their mortality like a


human being. They are not as intelligent as us but wonderful


creatures. In shorthand people talk about you as a "horse whisperer" do


horses have their own mentality? They are much greater than people


think they are. In my work I tap into the fact that they do


understand our emotions and... They understand our emotions? Yeah they


do, I think they are constantly scanning us to see if we are friend


or foe, and they are really good at seeing what our intention is from


our heart. It sounds whacky, I'm not. You sound a bit whacky to me!


The thing with it is if you go into work with a horse with the wrong


intention, they know you are not absolutely there 1% 00% there to


help them. I have had -- I have to think about my approach to them in


certain circumstances and make sure it's picked up on. If I look like


any other trainer or appear to approach in way that any other


trainer who has given them grief in the past, it won't work. I have to


be really sensitive to them and they open up and are sensitive to me.


Clearly we regard horses differently to the way we regard the vast


majority of animals. Yes, the Englishman particularly always had a


wonderful relationship with the horse. We have farmed with them,


fought with them, had fun with them and idolised them. We invest crazy


amounts of money. We are the only magazine in Europe, I think, we are


the only country that can sustain a weekly horse magazine. So we do


regard them differently to other animals, but they are not quite pets


or livestock, they are somewhere inbetween. They are to some people


pets. That is why they are special, when Jonathan Swift is looking for a


dignified, thoughtful, wise animal, he thinks of the horse. It is


interesting this, isn't it. I see them, they have a job to do, and we


have a job to do. My thing is meeting in the middle. They have


their part of the job to do and I have my part and together, we are


the jockeys, together they win the race. The better the horse does the


more the jockey gets out of the horse, the better it is for his


career. It is a collaboration. Given your sympathy, what do you


make of an accident of the kind that killed this horse, and two today


were killed? When I drive along the road to go and visit a horse


somewhere in the country there might be a fatality on the road. Somebody


driving to go and do their job. In part it is par for the course.


People get killed and on the way to work and stuff happens. We have to


get out there and do it. A horse doesn't have to get out there and


race? Horses get a good deal, I work eight or nine hours a day to pay my


bills. Horses work an hour-and-a-half to pay its way. The


horses in Cheltenham have elected to do it, horses that don't like


chasing or jumping don't get there. They are to some degree


self-selecting, you can't make a horse do anything. Some horses like


to do it and excel. What do you think when you get a tragedy like


this? It is awful and sad and horrible. I accept it is a risk and


not a cruel sport, just skiing down -- going down that straight. Thank


you. Some of the front pages, the Mirror has a photograph from a


Chinese satellite with what may be wreckage from the missing Malaysian


plane. The Times alleges that the particular type of aircraft


involved, this particular model of the 777 had been said to have some


cracks reported earlier. That's all from us tonight, if you


are desperate for some more escapism before you go to bed, you might want


to take a look at some of the winners of the Gaming BAFTAs, the


strategy award went to Nigel Farage's favourite game that puts


you in the shoes of an immigration inspector, deciding who to let


through. Good night. A cold night out there, fog around.


It could be an issue by morning time across England and Wales,


particularly low-lying areas, watch out for


Former foreign secretary David Miliband on Syria, the national minimum wage rise, Sol Campbell, Mark Urban returns to Iraq, and our attitude to horses. With Jeremy Paxman.