12/03/2014 Newsnight


12/03/2014

News stories with Jeremy Paxman. Including David Miliband on Syria, the national minimum wage rise, Sol Campbell, Mark Urban returns to Iraq and our attitude to horses.


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Transcript


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precious little about it. Three years on from the start of the

:00:09.:00:14.

Syrian Civil War, the greatest humanitarian crisis on earth just

:00:15.:00:20.

gets worse. Listen to the former Foreign Secretary. What I think this

:00:21.:00:26.

has become is the defining collective failure of this century

:00:27.:00:31.

so far. Also tonight, we talk to the former England defender, Sol

:00:32.:00:37.

Campbell about whether today's footballers are vain, overpaid

:00:38.:00:43.

pre-Madonnas. We return to Baghdad to see if there is a chance of peace

:00:44.:00:49.

breaking out. This is where Al-Qaeda flooded into the city in 2006 and

:00:50.:00:53.

declared it a liberated zone. That sparked a huge fight. They may look

:00:54.:00:58.

noble and grazeful, but is the life of a horse really so precious. Three

:00:59.:01:15.

years ago this week a group of citizens in Syria decided they

:01:16.:01:19.

weren't prepared to put up with a dictator any longer. They had seen

:01:20.:01:23.

other regimes topple to the Arab Spring, but the Syrians weren't so

:01:24.:01:29.

fortunate. President Assad unleashed his army and soon there was full

:01:30.:01:34.

scale Civil War. The dead numbing to many thousands and displaced into

:01:35.:01:38.

millions, and diplomatic pressure for Russia to abandon its nasty

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little ally has failed. David Miliband now runs the International

:01:47.:01:49.

Rescue committee, we have been talking to him about the lessons to

:01:50.:01:53.

be learned. How did this become this? Syria is

:01:54.:02:01.

the crisis of our generation. Over 100,000 dead, half the country

:02:02.:02:04.

forced from its home, and hardest to believe, a crisis now entering its

:02:05.:02:11.

fourth year. Did you ever think that we would be in something this bad

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for this long? No. If I had been here with you three years ago and

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have said nine million people displaced from their homes, three

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million in neighbouring countries, 130,000 dead, 1500 kids assassinated

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by snipers and victims of Government prisons, you would have said there

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will be an overwhelming outcry and it wouldn't be acceptable in the

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21st century. I think it is terrible we have reached this stage,

:02:48.:02:52.

seemingly a war without limit and end and law. Every day, as we are

:02:53.:02:56.

doing this interview international humanitarian law is being broken and

:02:57.:03:00.

the progress of certainly the last 60 years since the Second World War,

:03:01.:03:04.

in establishing norms of war that protect civilians is being rolled

:03:05.:03:08.

back. Why do you think it has been, in your words "acceptable"? I think

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what has happened is the political divisions between the great powers

:03:15.:03:17.

and the regional powers, between Russia and the US and Iran and Saudi

:03:18.:03:22.

Arabia, those political divisions have infected the humanitarian

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dialogue. I have to be very, very careful about the extent to which I

:03:26.:03:30.

can speculate about the wisdom or otherwise of military engagment.

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What I think this has become is the defining collective failure of this

:03:35.:03:40.

century so far. We all remember Rwanda over the 1990s, we remember

:03:41.:03:47.

Bosnia, the cities of Syria, the Aleppos, the Homs, will go down

:03:48.:03:52.

against the Sarajevos in a terrible litany. One of the greatest blocks

:03:53.:03:56.

to intervention has been Russia, in the form of a leader who has not

:03:57.:03:59.

relinquished power for nearly 15 years, indeed has been exerting it

:04:00.:04:04.

in the Ukraine as we speak. Looking back, did they have too strong a

:04:05.:04:10.

hand? I think they made a bet that has proved to be correct, which is

:04:11.:04:15.

that President Assad had more going for him than many thought. They bet

:04:16.:04:22.

that he wouldn't fall in the way that President Mubarak did and they

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proved to be right. Has the USA others -- and others been too supine

:04:33.:04:36.

on this? The attack and narrative in America is that President Obama has

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been too weak. I see something different. There isn't a military

:04:40.:04:45.

response in the Crimea, and if you mean by "strong" he should have had

:04:46.:04:49.

a military response in crime ma, no-one would seriously say that.

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What I see is something different, not a strong-week speck -- a

:04:53.:05:00.

strong-weak spectrum, but a fragmented international community.

:05:01.:05:03.

Future generations might not take this idea of fragmentation, they

:05:04.:05:08.

will say why was Russia so readily indulged for so long? I don't think

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it is indulgence is the right thing, there is a lot of fury, the question

:05:13.:05:18.

is, the point about the fragmentation is it is only economic

:05:19.:05:21.

unity that actually is the root to pressure. The thing about dealing

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with and working with the Russian Government is that they want

:05:25.:05:29.

respect, but they respect strength. If it is all about the economy

:05:30.:05:33.

stupid, and hitting Russia where it hurts, how are we doing on sanctions

:05:34.:05:38.

here? He offers a stark warning to this Government? There is a danger

:05:39.:05:41.

that people want a quick fix. And there isn't a quick fix. This is a

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long game. One of my reflections on being in the states, looking back

:05:48.:05:50.

here, and thinking about American politics is that the premium on

:05:51.:05:55.

short-term economics can drive out the long-term political strategy.

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Where as actually what you need is a long-term economic strategy to back

:05:59.:06:01.

the long-term political strategy. When it was made clear that David

:06:02.:06:06.

Cameron said he wouldn't hit Russians, for example, in the City

:06:07.:06:12.

of London? Well it is not my place to say, when I talked about

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fragmentation of the international response, if every country is just

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thinking how do we defend our own patch, not how are we going to unify

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so that we're presenting a common front, then obviously it is much

:06:24.:06:27.

more difficult to be taken seriously. Should military

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intervention happen in Syria, as it did in Iraq under the Government in

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which he served? He's loathe to say. But when I ask him why he thinks it

:06:35.:06:40.

never happened, the answer is stark. It is obvious there is a post-Iraq,

:06:41.:06:45.

post-Afghanistan, and post-financial crisis situation in western

:06:46.:06:48.

countries, where the limits of military power have been widely

:06:49.:06:53.

demonstrated. The economic constraints, the economic austerity

:06:54.:06:58.

is very clear and, look, the phrase that is used in America is "nation

:06:59.:07:03.

building at home". Limits of military power means Iraq and

:07:04.:07:06.

Afghanistan didn't work? I see all of this now through the lens of the

:07:07.:07:13.

work we do. We work in 3,800 Afghan villages and we have just done a

:07:14.:07:16.

survey of our staff and the people who they work with. What they tell

:07:17.:07:20.

me is they are worried that the gains they have made won't be

:07:21.:07:24.

preserved. I'm being told to wrap, but on the day the leader of the

:07:25.:07:28.

opposition, yes his brother, is making a speech on Europe, ruling

:07:29.:07:32.

out a referendum in 2017 it seems rude to go without asking what he

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thinks of it? I think it is sensible. Because Britain has a

:07:36.:07:39.

recovery to build and the central task for the next Government is

:07:40.:07:43.

obviously to build that recovery and the idea that half way through the

:07:44.:07:48.

parliament there would be a referendum, I don't think that many

:07:49.:07:54.

people 2017, when you have a German and French election, I think what he

:07:55.:07:58.

has done is sensible and statesman-like and really right.

:07:59.:08:04.

Let's talk about Syria now, Baroness Amos is in charge of humanitarian

:08:05.:08:09.

affairs at the UN. She has taken an active role in the European

:08:10.:08:13.

humanitarian response to the crisis. The world looks to you for hope, I

:08:14.:08:17.

suppose, why can't you deliver it? For a whole variety of reasons. It

:08:18.:08:23.

is something that I think about every day. Because I think the world

:08:24.:08:28.

looks to the U and expects the United Nations to solve problems.

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But we also forget that the United Nations is made up of all the

:08:33.:08:36.

different countries of the world, so all the differences that those

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countries have, they bring to the United Nations and the table. We see

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it being played out in Syria. If you are trying to formulate a

:08:46.:08:49.

humanitarian response though, it must be incredibly frustrating to

:08:50.:08:55.

find that the wheels of diplomacy grind so incredibly slowly. It was

:08:56.:08:58.

three years this has been going on? I think what's really frustrating

:08:59.:09:03.

for us on the humanitarian side is of course we know that the wheels of

:09:04.:09:07.

diplomacy, trying to find a political solution can be slow. But

:09:08.:09:12.

on the humanitarian side where you have people dying every day, we have

:09:13.:09:18.

seen those terrible pictures coming out of Yamouk and other parts of

:09:19.:09:21.

Syria. You have got millions of people displaced, it is almost as if

:09:22.:09:27.

people have become numb by the numbers. Over nine million people

:09:28.:09:33.

inside Syria needing help. It is the size of a small country in Europe.

:09:34.:09:38.

So the frustrating thing is that should not be political, that should

:09:39.:09:43.

not be politicised, helping people, getting aid in, there are rules that

:09:44.:09:47.

we have which should be applied when there is a conflict. You know,

:09:48.:09:54.

ordinary children, women, men, shouldn't be used in a conflict like

:09:55.:09:58.

this to make sure that it is sustained and it goes on and that's

:09:59.:10:02.

the thing we find most frustrating that we can't get to the people who

:10:03.:10:08.

need help. That it's over a year that over two million people have

:10:09.:10:12.

not had medical aid, food, things like that. I think it is an absolute

:10:13.:10:21.

scandal. Are both sides using this humanitarian aid question to

:10:22.:10:25.

political ends, or can you apportion blame? Well yes, the different sides

:10:26.:10:29.

are, but I do think you have to look at the numbers. When I say that you

:10:30.:10:33.

have got two-and-a-half million people in what we call

:10:34.:10:38.

hard-to-reach-place, we may have got to those places once. But there are

:10:39.:10:45.

about 240,000 people in places we called "besieged", for example we

:10:46.:10:47.

have not been able to get in with aid and they have not been able to

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get out. The majority of those people are in areas controlled by

:10:52.:10:54.

Government. So it is very hard to say that there is an equivalence

:10:55.:10:59.

when you look at the numbers, but all of the different sides, the

:11:00.:11:04.

different opposition groups as well as the Government use this tactic,

:11:05.:11:10.

sieging communities as a kind of weapon of war. How long could it go

:11:11.:11:19.

on? Well, it has gone on for three years, we're no nearer finding a

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political solution, the numbers have grown and grown and grown. I first

:11:24.:11:28.

went to Syria two years ago. I went to Homs, I saw the destruction in an

:11:29.:11:36.

area called Baba Ama, it has been repeated many times since. Then we

:11:37.:11:39.

were talking about a million people needing help. Now it is over nine

:11:40.:11:46.

million. I suppose we can watch collectively the destruction of an

:11:47.:11:51.

entire country over many more years, unless we get more courage from the

:11:52.:11:55.

international community and unless we find a way of finding a political

:11:56.:11:59.

solution. But both sides are just callous in this matter? Oh, if you

:12:00.:12:06.

look at the human rights abuses that you are seeing, spread across the

:12:07.:12:16.

country, absolutely. Now in a fit of large guess, Vince Cable

:12:17.:12:21.

conenvironmneted today that the national minimum wage will rise

:12:22.:12:25.

above the rate of inflation. It adds up to 19p extra an hour. Mind you

:12:26.:12:30.

people have been getting poorer for the last several years as the wage

:12:31.:12:33.

went up by less than the rate of inflation. Valuable ammunition for

:12:34.:12:37.

the Labour Party in its cost of living campaign. Hard to recall now

:12:38.:12:41.

that when it was proposed the minimum wage was a controversial

:12:42.:12:45.

idea. Tomorrow the Resolution Foundation releases a report

:12:46.:12:48.

authored by the minimum wage's architect, which examines whether it

:12:49.:12:59.

is still fit for purpose. People, production and pay, cogs in

:13:00.:13:05.

our economic machine. 15 years ago a new component, a minimum wage was

:13:06.:13:09.

plumbed in, now it is not running as smoothly as it should. From October

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it is ?6. 50 an hour, a 40-hour week means ?13,000 a year, after tax and

:13:22.:13:24.

national insurance that is take home of ?231 a week. Katie gets up at

:13:25.:13:31.

four. 45am to go to work cleaning Government offices. After rent,

:13:32.:13:38.

bills and transport, just living, ?6. 54 is not enough to make ends

:13:39.:13:47.

meet. It is impossible, we spend the money in three or four days, you

:13:48.:13:52.

work hard and you can have a good life, always you need to think about

:13:53.:13:56.

what you are going to do with every penny. And the rate was designed to

:13:57.:14:00.

be the bare minimum, not the benchmark for millions. 1. 2 million

:14:01.:14:06.

are on the actual wage. Another 1. 4 within 50p. But there are five

:14:07.:14:11.

million on low pay under the international definition around ?7.

:14:12.:14:18.

70. Look at this, that spike shows more and more of our wages clustered

:14:19.:14:23.

around the minimum level. When the minimum wage was introduced, it was

:14:24.:14:26.

intended very much as a red line that would never be crossed. What

:14:27.:14:29.

has happened is the ripple effects have been smaller than everyone

:14:30.:14:33.

thought and employers have treated it as going rate, and they take it

:14:34.:14:38.

as a guide to what they should be paying. Why should business fix

:14:39.:14:42.

that? Pay any more than they have to? The inventor of the minimum wage

:14:43.:14:47.

wants firms to cough up a higher rate for London. And a new

:14:48.:14:52.

Government target to pull more workers out of low pay. Most

:14:53.:14:58.

controversially the architect of the minimum wage wants the authorities

:14:59.:15:02.

to point the finger at employers who could afford to pay more but choose

:15:03.:15:09.

not to. The idea to name and shame business into raising wages, but is

:15:10.:15:16.

that realistic or even fair. Like thousands of businesses, this food

:15:17.:15:22.

distributor doesn't just have spare cash lying around. More rules, more

:15:23.:15:26.

complication, there is very tight margins in the profit we make. It is

:15:27.:15:32.

very big competition. Obviously the more wages are going up, the margin

:15:33.:15:36.

goes lower and the customer always wants to pay less. Ministers want

:15:37.:15:43.

the minimum wage eventually to regain the value it lost in the

:15:44.:15:46.

downturn, the idea that started as temporary has survived and become a

:15:47.:15:50.

permanent part of our economy. But it hasn't removed the trap of low

:15:51.:15:54.

pay for millions. It may be broke, but it is not straight forward how

:15:55.:16:02.

to fix it. Well Sir Jamie Bain, the architect of the minimum wage when

:16:03.:16:06.

it was introduced is in the Belfast studio now. Did you expect it to

:16:07.:16:11.

last this long Sir George? I don't think I did, when it came in 1998 we

:16:12.:16:17.

made a recommendation, it was simply set up for a year, and I'm quite

:16:18.:16:22.

surprised but delighted that 15 years later it is there. Even more

:16:23.:16:27.

delighted that all political parties now accept it and indeed want it

:16:28.:16:37.

increased. Has it achieved what you hoped? It has achieved a good deal

:16:38.:16:42.

what I hoped. It has abolished extreme low pay. Usually that is

:16:43.:16:46.

defined as being half the median. Something below about ?5. 75 an

:16:47.:16:57.

hour. When it came in about a third of labour force was in this

:16:58.:17:02.

position. Today it is about 7%. So it has abolished extreme low pay but

:17:03.:17:08.

not low pay. The problem now is the people as your commentary suggested

:17:09.:17:14.

who are on the minimum wage and as the commentary suggested there is a

:17:15.:17:18.

spike there. But who are way below the two thirds median, ?7. 7.71 an

:17:19.:17:24.

hour, which is Antarth national definition of low pay. It is that

:17:25.:17:28.

group which we failed to do anything for. The medium low paid, if you

:17:29.:17:33.

like, not the extreme low paid. And indeed inequality has got worse

:17:34.:17:39.

since it came? Inequality has got worse. Anybody who is concerned

:17:40.:17:43.

about the stability of society, of course this is not just true in the

:17:44.:17:47.

UK, it is true pretty much across the western world. Those at the top

:17:48.:17:53.

of the income distribution, one always mentions bankers, of course,

:17:54.:17:57.

but there is lots of others. They have done very much better. The

:17:58.:18:00.

rewards of globalisation seem to be going to them. But penalising those

:18:01.:18:08.

at the bottom. I think it is pretty clear from evidence that societies

:18:09.:18:16.

that are more egalitarian tend to do more than those who have quite

:18:17.:18:20.

marked and in some ways these days quite obscene differences in the

:18:21.:18:25.

ratio of high pay to low pay. These consequences that you are talking

:18:26.:18:30.

about, maybe they are collateral consequences of what happened. They

:18:31.:18:33.

don't make you think maybe this minimum wage is just too much of a

:18:34.:18:39.

blunt instrument? It is too much of a blunt instrument, that's exactly

:18:40.:18:44.

the problem. I mean the metaphor I like to use is that of a garment, in

:18:45.:18:48.

fact the metaphor is quite a good one, because the tailoring trade is

:18:49.:18:52.

one of the low paid areas. And since it is a single rate and you have to

:18:53.:19:00.

set it, so that it doesn't cause mass unemployment. A hence it has to

:19:01.:19:06.

be set relatively low. If you set it say at the living wage, which some

:19:07.:19:13.

people argue, which is you know about ?7. 65 an hour, you would

:19:14.:19:18.

cause massive unemployment in areas like retail, clothing, social care

:19:19.:19:23.

for elderly people, and so on. Yet, on the other hand, there is a whole

:19:24.:19:28.

range of sectors, there is only about five sectors where this is

:19:29.:19:31.

true. There is a whole range of sectors where you could actually

:19:32.:19:37.

easily afford to pay more than the minimum wage as it is set. There is

:19:38.:19:40.

something to be said, and that is what we are saying, for having it

:19:41.:19:44.

varied. First of all, not by region, but we have a long tradition in the

:19:45.:19:48.

UK as treating London as a special case. We think there is a special

:19:49.:19:52.

case for London to have a higher national minimum. We also think

:19:53.:19:56.

there is a special case for publishing after the low-pay

:19:57.:20:01.

commission has done its research and homework a right that particular

:20:02.:20:05.

sector, other than those at the very bottom, could afford to pay. An

:20:06.:20:10.

indication of that rate. Thank you very much for joining us. The former

:20:11.:20:19.

England footballer Sol Campbell is standing by his claim of racial

:20:20.:20:25.

discrimination. He said if he hadn't been black he might have been

:20:26.:20:28.

captain of England. Far more than the three occasions in a teyear

:20:29.:20:33.

career that it did occur. Other players, including black players are

:20:34.:20:38.

saying he's talking nonsense to sell his autobuy off fee. Is he? --

:20:39.:20:48.

biography. Let's look back at some of the career highs and lows. In a

:20:49.:20:54.

sport that has cheapened hatred like no other, few players have sparked

:20:55.:21:01.

such extreme emotion as Sol Campbell. Football knows no transfer

:21:02.:21:08.

than a sensational one, but when in 2001, Campbell, then captain of

:21:09.:21:13.

Spurs, defected four miles down the road to play for Arsenal, the sport

:21:14.:21:22.

held its breath. In And with good reason, Campbell's return to his old

:21:23.:21:26.

ground yielded almost unparalleled abuse from those who had once adored

:21:27.:21:31.

him. For no other reason and deciding to change jobs, Sol

:21:32.:21:38.

Campbell had become one of the game's most controversial players.

:21:39.:21:42.

If the abuse was hurting, it didn't appear to show. Campbell was to star

:21:43.:21:48.

as his new club won repeated trophies. For the England national

:21:49.:21:57.

side he was a could loss giant, playing in six major tournamentings.

:21:58.:22:04.

He was a complex character. It was at half time in this game that he

:22:05.:22:07.

asked to be substituted before driving away from the ground while

:22:08.:22:11.

the game continued, and heading for Brussels. What was going on in his

:22:12.:22:16.

mind? In retirement his focus has turned to the racism he sees in the

:22:17.:22:24.

sport. Sol Campbell is here now. If this sport was institutionally

:22:25.:22:29.

racist you wouldn't have done as well as you have done, would you?

:22:30.:22:33.

I'm not saying that, all I'm saying is when my book is a reflection of

:22:34.:22:41.

what I have been through and how I see football. It is my side of the

:22:42.:22:58.

storyCEDYELLOW I'm not saying that, all I'm saying is when my book is a

:22:59.:23:01.

reflection of what I have been through and how I see football. It

:23:02.:23:04.

is my side of the story. It is how I see football. When you see Paul Ince

:23:05.:23:07.

and others occupying the role of captain, it doesn't seem to be true

:23:08.:23:10.

this allegation against black players? For me personally, if I

:23:11.:23:14.

look at it, if I was say white, I would have captained my country more

:23:15.:23:25.

than three times for sure. There are extracts, the ten-year thing, that

:23:26.:23:30.

was blown out. I'm saying I would have captained more times over ten

:23:31.:23:35.

years. But it is, that is my take on it. It is possible, of course, they

:23:36.:23:38.

just didn't make you captain more often because they judged you were

:23:39.:23:44.

not psychologically best-suited to that job? I disagree on that because

:23:45.:23:52.

I have captained my club at a young age at Tottenham. I have easily

:23:53.:23:58.

captained Arsenal. I captained Portsmouth to FA Cup victory. All

:23:59.:24:02.

those problems which happened later on, that was when I was 31, I'm

:24:03.:24:09.

talking about mid-20s. You are absolutely convinced of this are

:24:10.:24:13.

you? I think it is not as blatant, and not institutional, but for me it

:24:14.:24:18.

is almost like a subconscious kind of thing. If I give you examples

:24:19.:24:24.

there was a sports committee set up by the FA I was saying well the BBC

:24:25.:24:29.

actually came to me and said who is on here. I have looked on there,

:24:30.:24:34.

there is one thing which sticks out to me, there was no-one of black

:24:35.:24:38.

origin on there, that is why the BBC came to me and asked me to say

:24:39.:24:42.

something about it. Then the committee is already set, I have

:24:43.:24:47.

said something on TV, obviously it is retracted and Rio Ferdinand is on

:24:48.:24:52.

there saying it was not really completed. But for me it is almost

:24:53.:24:56.

why would you want to do that if you want to make a statement. You would

:24:57.:25:00.

actually put someone, if you want a forward-thinking kind of FA you

:25:01.:25:03.

would put something black in the beginning and put the rest of the

:25:04.:25:07.

committee on there. It is almost like backtracking, it is a very

:25:08.:25:11.

delayed reaction. Can we talk a little bit about the world of the

:25:12.:25:16.

professional football player. Jose Mourinho said the other day they

:25:17.:25:22.

were vain, overpaid celebrity-obsessed, is that a

:25:23.:25:29.

picture you recognise? I don't think they are all vain and overpaid, I

:25:30.:25:32.

think it is horses for courses. Every club has their level. There

:25:33.:25:37.

will only be certain clubs able to pay the vast sums, and those players

:25:38.:25:40.

some of them are worth it, because it is a ten-year career. But,

:25:41.:25:45.

footballers are, they work hard, they are under pressure, it is a

:25:46.:25:51.

business, it is an entertainment business. As I said every club has

:25:52.:25:59.

their level. You would advise a young man with the talent to go into

:26:00.:26:03.

the world? The beautiful thing about football is talent always comes

:26:04.:26:07.

through. You also have to deal with the sort of publish that the fans

:26:08.:26:11.

will sometimes shout at you, if, as in your case, they get the wrong

:26:12.:26:19.

idea? I don't mean the wrong idea do I, who cares what your sexual

:26:20.:26:23.

orientation is, why is that a cause for abuse? My abuse was many things,

:26:24.:26:29.

it was homophobic, it was racial, I have had everything as a black man

:26:30.:26:33.

growing up. And a young black man growing up in football. I always

:26:34.:26:39.

looked beyond that and I said to myself football is going to be the

:26:40.:26:43.

number one for me. And I will not allow those kinds of comments or

:26:44.:26:47.

that type of attitude towards me or abuse as I had as an early young boy

:26:48.:26:54.

starting out in Tottenham stopped me from living my dream.

:26:55.:27:00.

Would you give different advice to a young black man as to a youngs white

:27:01.:27:05.

man? No. As I said before talent will always take you through into

:27:06.:27:09.

football. That is the beautiful thing about football and most

:27:10.:27:13.

sports. All lent will always shine through and take you as far as you

:27:14.:27:21.

want to go. Thank you very much. As we saw earlier the west's

:27:22.:27:25.

inability or unwillingness to get involved in Syria reflects a mood in

:27:26.:27:31.

western capitals that is itself greatly influenced by other foreign

:27:32.:27:35.

adventures, most obviously is the intervention in Iraq, for by 179

:27:36.:27:40.

British servicemen and women gave their lives, along with thousands of

:27:41.:27:43.

Americans and others. It is now nearly three years since that

:27:44.:27:46.

operation finished. But if it was supposed to bring peace and

:27:47.:27:49.

prosperity, it wasn't a great success, at least 1500 people have

:27:50.:27:53.

already been killed in violence there this year. We have been in and

:27:54.:28:02.

out of troubled areas for Iraq, our correspondent has just been back to

:28:03.:28:09.

Durra, once dubbed the most dangerous place in Iraq. Let's see

:28:10.:28:19.

what has been achieved? In Baghdad these days several neighbourhoods

:28:20.:28:23.

are particularly tense, the police patrol with caution. They are

:28:24.:28:29.

enclaves where Sunnis live, in a city that not long ago lived through

:28:30.:28:33.

a nightmare of sectarian violence. And now the fear is it could happen

:28:34.:28:40.

again. We didn't get into Fallujah because they are in state of open

:28:41.:28:46.

revolt. This part of Baghdad, Durra, it is a particularly interesting

:28:47.:28:49.

place now to look at the tension between the Sunni community. This is

:28:50.:28:52.

where Al-Qaeda flooded into the outskirts of the city in 2006 and

:28:53.:28:58.

declared it a liberated zone. That sparked a huge fight. The first

:28:59.:29:06.

Newsnight film in Dura was made seven years ago. When violence was

:29:07.:29:12.

at its height. The Americans sent troops into the market to turn the

:29:13.:29:15.

situation round and they came under constant attack. It's time to rock

:29:16.:29:31.

'n' roll. To reach Dura you cross the Tigris, south of central

:29:32.:29:34.

Baghdad. These days the Americans are long gone. And the area is

:29:35.:29:44.

surrounded by police checkpoints. Since Shi'ites dominate the force

:29:45.:29:48.

that means many Sunnis feel besieged. The atmosphere of

:29:49.:29:52.

normality that took years to achieve is now threatened. Dura is famous

:29:53.:30:02.

for its sprawling markets, you can buy everything, from river carp to

:30:03.:30:08.

spices, dresses or even televisions. The great metric here for the

:30:09.:30:13.

Americans of their success always was how many shops were opening. In

:30:14.:30:17.

the darkest moment of what was happening in 2006 it went down to a

:30:18.:30:21.

couple of dozen. Then they got it up to a few hundred, then a year ago

:30:22.:30:27.

there was said to be 20,000 stall holders this market. It really is

:30:28.:30:31.

one of the biggest in Baghdad. But now, as a result of what has

:30:32.:30:34.

happened in the last few months, some of them have started getting

:30:35.:30:37.

into financial trouble again and some of the stalls have closed. It

:30:38.:30:44.

was here on Christmas Day that a series of bombs killed 26 people and

:30:45.:30:50.

shattered the peace. Were the bombs aimed at local Christians or the

:30:51.:30:58.

Sunnis who are Dura's majority, or simply that nobody knew. They

:30:59.:31:08.

traumatised this community. Is TRANSLATION: There were wounded and

:31:09.:31:12.

injured people, I don't remember how many wounded and lots of martyrs.

:31:13.:31:17.

There were dead shopkeepers, there was happen. Hasim and his son,

:31:18.:31:25.

Gasham and his mother passing by, God have mercy on them. I cam across

:31:26.:31:31.

bodies from my area, ten of them. We really hope it will get better, the

:31:32.:31:36.

situation generally in Baghdad is now getting worse, because these

:31:37.:31:41.

incidents, carried out by gangs in Anbar province and others are felt

:31:42.:31:51.

by Baghdad. We're able to drop in on old friends, people we met making

:31:52.:31:59.

our three previous Dura films. This is an architect Tariq. I would not

:32:00.:32:05.

go to a very congested area with people. Because I don't know when

:32:06.:32:12.

the bombing will start. You can pay $100 to somebody to plant one of

:32:13.:32:20.

these bombs. He would be pleased to spend it on drinks or other things,

:32:21.:32:25.

they don't care. They are Iraqi citizens or Iraqi people and they

:32:26.:32:31.

have no value. If he lives or dies. They lost their value. We don't have

:32:32.:32:44.

the sense of citizenship as you have in the UK and Europe. Dura today is

:32:45.:32:48.

a more prosperous place than when the Americans were here. They

:32:49.:32:53.

started the turn around, and the Iraqi Government consolidated it. So

:32:54.:33:01.

why are things going wrong now. Measures that brought peace have

:33:02.:33:07.

been reversed. Tell him soon the SOI will be paid by the national police

:33:08.:33:13.

and not the US at all. On previous visits we saw how the Americans

:33:14.:33:21.

formed a Sunni militia, the awakening forces, hundreds signed up

:33:22.:33:26.

for it, many former insurgents. They put walls in to separate Dura from

:33:27.:33:31.

neighboing Shi'ite communities. They got on top of Al-Qaeda but never

:33:32.:33:38.

fully killed it off. Is Al-Qaeda finished here or could they come

:33:39.:33:43.

back? Come back, no, no, no. No turning back, no. Finished 100%? No,

:33:44.:33:58.

maybe 90% he said. For the Sheikh, leading a Sunni militia, paid by the

:33:59.:34:01.

Americans, it was bound to be dangerous work. What happened to

:34:02.:34:08.

Sheikh Ali is a couple of years after we spoke to him he was

:34:09.:34:12.

murdered as he left the mosque here where he was Iman. By people from

:34:13.:34:19.

Al-Qaeda. And the Awakening Forces were gradually ground down. And on

:34:20.:34:24.

the one side they were attacked by Al-Qaeda extremists within their own

:34:25.:34:27.

Sunni community t on the other hand the Government turned its back on

:34:28.:34:31.

them, paid off most of them and let them go. Putting in their place

:34:32.:34:35.

uniformed police forces from outside the area to try to ensure security

:34:36.:34:42.

instead. But that link with the community had been broken. Today the

:34:43.:34:46.

walls remain around mosques, police stations and in a couple of other

:34:47.:34:52.

places. Elsewhere they are gone. And critically Iraq's Shi'ite-dominated

:34:53.:34:57.

Government want theed Sunni approximately ligsia to wither. Once

:34:58.:35:02.

several hundred in Dura, it is now a few dozen. We called in on the

:35:03.:35:10.

commander, when we met him in 2 OK 00 -- in 2008, he predicted the

:35:11.:35:17.

forces would be squeezed and the police would suffer and now says I

:35:18.:35:24.

told you so. TRANSLATION: We were hoping they could become police in

:35:25.:35:27.

their neighbourhoods, that would have been best, they could have

:35:28.:35:31.

controlled the areas and no incidents could have occurred. These

:35:32.:35:36.

days Iraqis are gearing up for election, the Prime Minister's pitch

:35:37.:35:46.

for relax rests on security. Major General Catum admits there are

:35:47.:35:54.

problems in provinces like Anbar, he insists insurgency does not return

:35:55.:36:05.

to Baghdad. TRANSLATION: No, the information we have is that people

:36:06.:36:08.

have started to look towards the elections and absolutely won't

:36:09.:36:12.

accept such acts. The state has begun to strengthen and people also

:36:13.:36:17.

have more self-confidence after experiencing explosions and harm

:36:18.:36:27.

from Al-Qaeda and criminals. But today combat has broken out in

:36:28.:36:31.

western Iraqi cities like Fallujah. Groups linked to Al-Qaeda battle the

:36:32.:36:36.

army there. In Baghdad Sunni opposition is underground, but

:36:37.:36:40.

recent bombings have stoked public fear. It is felt in Dura, in places

:36:41.:36:50.

like the central kindergarten school. We filmed Leyla, McMahon

:36:51.:37:00.

Leyla, as the kids call her, back to times when pupils had to talk past

:37:01.:37:04.

bodies to get to school. Things have got better, but now she worries not

:37:05.:37:08.

only will elections do nothing to help her community, but they will

:37:09.:37:17.

trigger more violence. TRANSLATION: Security is the most

:37:18.:37:19.

important thing for people, in the period of security we did have, you

:37:20.:37:23.

saw for yourself that development took place, people felt safe and

:37:24.:37:26.

went out in the street, they went to work. Now many are leaving their

:37:27.:37:37.

homes in dangerous a a -- areas, in Fallujah they have left, people are

:37:38.:37:40.

afraid in our neighbourhood, they don't know what will happen. As the

:37:41.:37:44.

day's trading end, Dura's famous market empties. To be guarded by the

:37:45.:37:51.

only member of the local militia we saw in days here. The deserted

:37:52.:38:00.

market remind us what things used to be like in darker times Knowing the

:38:01.:38:05.

potential for violence of these people here, the way it is policed

:38:06.:38:12.

and the strong sense of kinship between the people in Dura and the

:38:13.:38:17.

west, which is in open revolt. They are lucky not to have more trouble

:38:18.:38:22.

here already. Already Baghdad is facing a new wave of bombings and

:38:23.:38:28.

assassinations. As April's elections approach, the city is braced for the

:38:29.:38:33.

train of sectarian and political violence to gather pace. Animal

:38:34.:38:39.

rights activists have had steam coming out of their ears all day,

:38:40.:38:45.

after a comment by Ruby Walsh about the death of a horse at Cheltenham.

:38:46.:38:49.

The Daily Mail reported him saying you can replace a horse but not a

:38:50.:38:55.

human being. They claim it shows callousness. Famously there are more

:38:56.:39:04.

horses' ars th horses. Maybe Ruby Walsh is one of them. Can there be

:39:05.:39:08.

equivalence between a human and animal. With us to discuss is the

:39:09.:39:14.

editor of horse and hound, and a problem horse trainer. ? That is

:39:15.:39:21.

very badly written, you are trainer of problem horses? Yes. Do you

:39:22.:39:26.

understand why there is all this kerfuffle about what Ruby Walsh

:39:27.:39:31.

said? I can understand, and I would like to see the whole interview and

:39:32.:39:36.

speak to him about what was actually said. I know from my experience

:39:37.:39:39.

jockies have to have a relationship with a horse in order to get that

:39:40.:39:43.

last little per cent that takes them across the line first. So you know

:39:44.:39:49.

AP McCoy, I read a piece in the Times last Sunday cried when

:39:50.:39:54.

Synchronised got killed at Aintree. They do have a huge connection with

:39:55.:40:02.

their horses. Are you surprised by the Kerr roughly? I think he was

:40:03.:40:05.

responding that whenever it is Aintree or Cheltenham, these animal

:40:06.:40:10.

rights activists and types of organisations come out waiting for

:40:11.:40:15.

any event, any ill-advised comment, any horse fatality that they can go

:40:16.:40:23.

from that, responding to that for racing. He will have a huge

:40:24.:40:26.

relationship with the horses he rides, we don't just get another one

:40:27.:40:30.

out of the drawer, that is not what he meant. There is clearly a

:40:31.:40:33.

difference between a horse and human being? Absolutely. Horses are

:40:34.:40:38.

wonderfully intelligent and emotional teachers. They do have

:40:39.:40:41.

emotions, they recognise patterns and learn to do incredibly clever

:40:42.:40:46.

things. I don't think they have a sense of their mortality like a

:40:47.:40:51.

human being. They are not as intelligent as us but wonderful

:40:52.:40:56.

creatures. In shorthand people talk about you as a "horse whisperer" do

:40:57.:41:05.

horses have their own mentality? They are much greater than people

:41:06.:41:08.

think they are. In my work I tap into the fact that they do

:41:09.:41:13.

understand our emotions and... They understand our emotions? Yeah they

:41:14.:41:17.

do, I think they are constantly scanning us to see if we are friend

:41:18.:41:23.

or foe, and they are really good at seeing what our intention is from

:41:24.:41:27.

our heart. It sounds whacky, I'm not. You sound a bit whacky to me!

:41:28.:41:33.

The thing with it is if you go into work with a horse with the wrong

:41:34.:41:39.

intention, they know you are not absolutely there 1% 00% there to

:41:40.:41:52.

help them. I have had -- I have to think about my approach to them in

:41:53.:41:56.

certain circumstances and make sure it's picked up on. If I look like

:41:57.:42:01.

any other trainer or appear to approach in way that any other

:42:02.:42:04.

trainer who has given them grief in the past, it won't work. I have to

:42:05.:42:08.

be really sensitive to them and they open up and are sensitive to me.

:42:09.:42:12.

Clearly we regard horses differently to the way we regard the vast

:42:13.:42:22.

majority of animals. Yes, the Englishman particularly always had a

:42:23.:42:25.

wonderful relationship with the horse. We have farmed with them,

:42:26.:42:30.

fought with them, had fun with them and idolised them. We invest crazy

:42:31.:42:34.

amounts of money. We are the only magazine in Europe, I think, we are

:42:35.:42:39.

the only country that can sustain a weekly horse magazine. So we do

:42:40.:42:46.

regard them differently to other animals, but they are not quite pets

:42:47.:42:49.

or livestock, they are somewhere inbetween. They are to some people

:42:50.:42:53.

pets. That is why they are special, when Jonathan Swift is looking for a

:42:54.:43:00.

dignified, thoughtful, wise animal, he thinks of the horse. It is

:43:01.:43:05.

interesting this, isn't it. I see them, they have a job to do, and we

:43:06.:43:10.

have a job to do. My thing is meeting in the middle. They have

:43:11.:43:14.

their part of the job to do and I have my part and together, we are

:43:15.:43:18.

the jockeys, together they win the race. The better the horse does the

:43:19.:43:22.

more the jockey gets out of the horse, the better it is for his

:43:23.:43:27.

career. It is a collaboration. Given your sympathy, what do you

:43:28.:43:35.

make of an accident of the kind that killed this horse, and two today

:43:36.:43:39.

were killed? When I drive along the road to go and visit a horse

:43:40.:43:42.

somewhere in the country there might be a fatality on the road. Somebody

:43:43.:43:48.

driving to go and do their job. In part it is par for the course.

:43:49.:43:55.

People get killed and on the way to work and stuff happens. We have to

:43:56.:44:00.

get out there and do it. A horse doesn't have to get out there and

:44:01.:44:03.

race? Horses get a good deal, I work eight or nine hours a day to pay my

:44:04.:44:09.

bills. Horses work an hour-and-a-half to pay its way. The

:44:10.:44:16.

horses in Cheltenham have elected to do it, horses that don't like

:44:17.:44:20.

chasing or jumping don't get there. They are to some degree

:44:21.:44:24.

self-selecting, you can't make a horse do anything. Some horses like

:44:25.:44:28.

to do it and excel. What do you think when you get a tragedy like

:44:29.:44:33.

this? It is awful and sad and horrible. I accept it is a risk and

:44:34.:44:47.

not a cruel sport, just skiing down -- going down that straight. Thank

:44:48.:44:57.

you. Some of the front pages, the Mirror has a photograph from a

:44:58.:45:01.

Chinese satellite with what may be wreckage from the missing Malaysian

:45:02.:45:07.

plane. The Times alleges that the particular type of aircraft

:45:08.:45:12.

involved, this particular model of the 777 had been said to have some

:45:13.:45:15.

cracks reported earlier. That's all from us tonight, if you

:45:16.:45:28.

are desperate for some more escapism before you go to bed, you might want

:45:29.:45:33.

to take a look at some of the winners of the Gaming BAFTAs, the

:45:34.:45:38.

strategy award went to Nigel Farage's favourite game that puts

:45:39.:45:42.

you in the shoes of an immigration inspector, deciding who to let

:45:43.:45:44.

through. Good night. A cold night out there, fog around.

:45:45.:46:42.

It could be an issue by morning time across England and Wales,

:46:43.:46:45.

particularly low-lying areas, watch out for

:46:46.:46:47.

Former foreign secretary David Miliband on Syria, the national minimum wage rise, Sol Campbell, Mark Urban returns to Iraq, and our attitude to horses. With Jeremy Paxman.