13/03/2014 Newsnight


13/03/2014

The latest from Ukraine; 'indeterminate' sentences; missing plane search continues; 40p tax threshold; and does attention deficit disorder really exist?


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The diplomatic talk gets tough as Ukraine appeals to the UN, Russia is

:00:00.:00:35.

told to call off the referendum in Crimea. This man was sentenced to

:00:36.:00:38.

three years in prison, spending eight mind bars, indeterminate

:00:39.:00:43.

sentences were David Blunkett's big idea. Ten years on he tells us how

:00:44.:00:52.

it went so long. As the search for the Malaysian plane disappeared. We

:00:53.:01:02.

talk to a pilot who knows the fear of the crash. A man who thinks that

:01:03.:01:09.

ADHD doesn't exist, a mother who is not impressed. Perhaps he could

:01:10.:01:12.

raise a child with the condition, it is easy to sit on the outside and

:01:13.:01:19.

judge. Hello good evening. Russia has

:01:20.:01:24.

confirmed it has begun military exercises involving more than 8,000

:01:25.:01:29.

troops close to the Ukraine border. The omission will do nothing to calm

:01:30.:01:33.

tensions ahead of the Crimea referendum on whether to join Russia

:01:34.:01:38.

at the weekend. Today William Hague called on Russia to abandon the

:01:39.:01:43.

referendum, and said that Britain would freeze travel on Russians and

:01:44.:01:47.

assets. We're going across now to Crimea and

:01:48.:01:53.

our diplomatic editor. Tell us the sense you are getting on the ground

:01:54.:02:02.

of how worried people are. You get a strong sense this vote is going to

:02:03.:02:06.

happen on Sunday and the result is a foregone conclusion. Among some

:02:07.:02:11.

Ukrainians here, and the minority here, there is a feeling that the

:02:12.:02:14.

Kiev Government has almost given up, despite the pleas today of the

:02:15.:02:19.

acting Prime Minister in the UN in New York that it's not too late to

:02:20.:02:22.

talk, but something can still be done. Despite the fact that European

:02:23.:02:27.

leaders are increasingly explicitly saying sanctions will come in on

:02:28.:02:31.

Monday against Russia if this vote goes ahead. What you find here is

:02:32.:02:37.

people looking to the next stage, a Ukrainian man on the train down said

:02:38.:02:41.

to me, if they intervene somewhere else he will go and fight them. And

:02:42.:02:46.

a commander of the Russian self-defence groups I was talking to

:02:47.:02:49.

here earlier today said much the same thing. He predicts that could

:02:50.:02:55.

get very violent if there are indeed incursions in the east of the

:02:56.:02:59.

Ukraine. And briefly, we talked about troops, what's happening there

:03:00.:03:05.

in the east? Well, there are more Russian military exercises,

:03:06.:03:08.

something like 10,000 troops on Ukraine's eastern border. That has

:03:09.:03:12.

created tensions, also violent clashes tonight in the eastern city

:03:13.:03:20.

of Donetsk, and people have died. Could this be the spark that

:03:21.:03:24.

triggers further western invention. Western leaders are gambling no it

:03:25.:03:27.

is not, that the mood is still there in Moscow to talk and try to contain

:03:28.:03:31.

the damage of what has been done in Crimea. It has to be said with those

:03:32.:03:37.

troops in jumping off positions and violence on the streets, we have

:03:38.:03:41.

entered an unpredictable and tense phase in the crisis. As the troops

:03:42.:03:45.

amass and the threat of invasion hangs in the air, what is it like to

:03:46.:03:52.

live on the new eastern front? The town of Milove sits right in the

:03:53.:03:57.

middle, Ukraine on run side, Russia on the other side of the street. We

:03:58.:04:02.

speak to Olga, whose living room looks out on another country.

:04:03.:10:29.

The voice of Olga in that report in Milove on the Ukraine-Russia border.

:10:30.:10:36.

It was the brainchild of the Blair Government, a custodial sentence

:10:37.:10:41.

labelled "indeterminate", the idea was to ensure criminals stayed

:10:42.:10:45.

behind bars until they were certain not to reoffend. A fine theory, in

:10:46.:10:49.

practice it meant some people were sent to prison for relatively minor

:10:50.:10:54.

offences and never released. The policy has now been abolished, as we

:10:55.:10:59.

have discovered for Newsnight, the backlog is so great that some 5,500

:11:00.:11:04.

people are still languishing in prison with no release date. Every

:11:05.:11:10.

few months Wendy makes it journey from her home in Ellesmere Port near

:11:11.:11:14.

Liverpool, to see her son Richard. Who is in prison in Lancashire. When

:11:15.:11:22.

he was 18 Richard was given a 17-month minimum sentence for

:11:23.:11:26.

assault and attempted robbery. Eight years later he's still in prison. He

:11:27.:11:35.

has lost so many years of his life. It's silly, it is wrong he's in

:11:36.:11:38.

there and forgotten about, basically. Richard is serving what

:11:39.:11:46.

is known as an indeterminate sentence for public protection, or

:11:47.:11:49.

an IPP, which means throughout his time in prison he's never been given

:11:50.:11:55.

a release date. In order to get released IPP prisoners must prove to

:11:56.:11:59.

a parole board that they are no longer a danger to the public. If

:12:00.:12:02.

they are unsuccessful they could wait two years before they get

:12:03.:12:07.

another hearing. In Richard's case he hasn't always been perfect. Three

:12:08.:12:10.

years ago he failed a drugsest it, but his family and lawyers argue

:12:11.:12:15.

that in eight years he's never been violent. So why is he still in this

:12:16.:12:25.

prison. David Blunkett introduced IPPs ten years ago when he was Home

:12:26.:12:27.

Secretary. They were meant to be applied to serious, violent and

:12:28.:12:32.

sexual offences. People are being let out of prison when everybody

:12:33.:12:37.

concerns knows that this is going to happen again. He had in mind people

:12:38.:12:43.

like Roy Whiting, who murdered eight years old Sarah Payne, he had been

:12:44.:12:50.

in prison before for a serious sexual crime. The Government

:12:51.:12:55.

estimated that IPPs would be given to 900 offenders, but it was applied

:12:56.:13:01.

far more widely. By 2012 there were 6,000 IPP prisoners. I would stand

:13:02.:13:08.

in that window whenever I was out on the wing and just watch freedom.

:13:09.:13:13.

Shaun Lloyd was released from prison three weeks ago. He spent some of

:13:14.:13:18.

his sentence at Cardiff Prison, just a few hundred yards from where he

:13:19.:13:23.

grew up. At the age of 18 he was given a tarrif of two years and nine

:13:24.:13:28.

months after committing two street robberies. He ended up serving more

:13:29.:13:35.

than eight years. Do you you deserved to go to prison? Yeah. I

:13:36.:13:41.

think I deserved to go to prison obviously but not for the length of

:13:42.:13:47.

time that I have done because it is just messed me up, like. Is that all

:13:48.:13:52.

the stuff from your cell? Yeah, everything. Like all IPP prisoners,

:13:53.:13:57.

Shaun was required to take offender behaviour courses to prove to the

:13:58.:14:01.

Parole Board that he was no longer a risk. The problem is, they are in

:14:02.:14:06.

short supply. Prisoners can wait months to get on them. As an IPP

:14:07.:14:11.

prisoner, with no release date, seven years over tarrif, my head was

:14:12.:14:17.

battered, my head was gone. I was suicidal. Donna comes to this

:14:18.:14:24.

graveyard in Surrey every week, so that she can feel close to her

:14:25.:14:28.

brother, Shaun, who committed suicide after three years in prison.

:14:29.:14:32.

He had serious mental health problems and was a recovering drug

:14:33.:14:36.

addict. He had been given an IPP sentence of two years and five

:14:37.:14:40.

months for forcing someone to take money out of a cash machine. Donna

:14:41.:14:45.

was the last person to speak to him alive. He rang me in the morning and

:14:46.:14:57.

he just said that you know I love you all and that look after my mum

:14:58.:15:05.

and I just can't take no more Donna. I can't, I don't know what's

:15:06.:15:10.

happening with my life. I just can't take no more. And that was it, he

:15:11.:15:18.

just said I love you and goodbye. Shaun had been told he needed to do

:15:19.:15:22.

a drug rehabilitation course and transferred to another prison to do

:15:23.:15:26.

it. But the course wasn't available. It was this, Donna says, that tipped

:15:27.:15:34.

him over the edge. For people like Shaun that are very vulnerable not

:15:35.:15:42.

having that deadline of saying, OK I know Shaun done bad things, I know

:15:43.:15:48.

people in prison do bad things, but if he had a date when he could have

:15:49.:15:52.

been coming out, I think he would have still lived with a little bit

:15:53.:16:01.

of hope. The IPP sentence was abolished by the then Justice

:16:02.:16:04.

Secretary, Keneth Clarke, two years ago. He called it a stain on the

:16:05.:16:08.

criminal justice system. But it was not retrospective. There remains

:16:09.:16:15.

within the system 5,500 IPP prisoners, nearly two thirds are

:16:16.:16:18.

over tarrif. At the current release rate it will take nine years to

:16:19.:16:24.

clear the backlog of over-tarrif prisoners. We told the former Home

:16:25.:16:29.

Secretary, David Blunkett, about Wendy's son Richard and his eight

:16:30.:16:33.

years in prison. I would say that this is an injustice, I would say

:16:34.:16:37.

that the original intention had nothing to do with circumstances

:16:38.:16:43.

where people would be held way beyond the normal tarrif in a

:16:44.:16:48.

situation wherein some instances they have not been able to take the

:16:49.:16:54.

necessary course and demonstrate the ion necessary, the change in their

:16:55.:16:58.

behaviour. In terms of the families that are watching, what would you

:16:59.:17:03.

say to them about your role in this? Well I would say that I implemented

:17:04.:17:09.

what I believed was necessary to safeguard the public. But you get it

:17:10.:17:17.

wrong? I regret very much that we were not clearer in terms of the

:17:18.:17:20.

criteria laid down, and tougher in saying what the judges should and

:17:21.:17:24.

shouldn't do. And we were not effective enough in putting in the

:17:25.:17:28.

necessary resources to ensure that the rehabilitation courses were ail

:17:29.:17:33.

available. So you got it wrong? We certainly got the implementation

:17:34.:17:37.

wrong, but the intention, in my view, was correct. Wendy has just

:17:38.:17:42.

finished a two-hour visit with her son Richard. They talked about his

:17:43.:17:46.

next parole hearing, which is in two weeks time. He's anxious, just wants

:17:47.:17:52.

it over and done with to find out what is happening either way.

:17:53.:17:56.

Doesn't want to build his hopes up too high unless he gets another

:17:57.:18:03.

knockback. For someone who only got an 18-month sentence, he has done a

:18:04.:18:07.

heck of a long time. If Richard is moved to an open prison, he's likely

:18:08.:18:11.

to stay there for a year to 18 months, which means he will have

:18:12.:18:20.

spent ten years inside. I'm joined now by Crispen Blunt who worked with

:18:21.:18:29.

Keneth Clarke to abolish these sentenced. What do you think when

:18:30.:18:35.

you hear these stories? I know we did precisely the right thing. These

:18:36.:18:41.

sentences were both unjust and stupid. The effect was, as we heard

:18:42.:18:47.

from David Blunkett, they were not administered properly, so the

:18:48.:18:52.

system, there were 6,500 of these prisoners in prison when I became

:18:53.:18:56.

Prisons Minister, with P,000 beyond tarrif. The Parole Board were

:18:57.:19:00.

releasing one in 20 of those who applied for release. The system was

:19:01.:19:04.

just filling up. There was a stage in the process where we would end up

:19:05.:19:08.

with 25,000 of these people in the prison system if something hadn't

:19:09.:19:12.

been done. It began to be addressed in 200le 8, we managed to get it

:19:13.:19:17.

abolished in the first piece of legislation in 2012. When you hear

:19:18.:19:22.

how big the backlog is, and it would take nine years at the current rate

:19:23.:19:26.

to clear this, what do you think the Government should do. It will

:19:27.:19:37.

accelerated and a very defensive parole board shouted at by John

:19:38.:19:41.

Reid, and they were releasing too many people, their reaction was to

:19:42.:19:45.

be defensive and not release many people, and not make sensible

:19:46.:19:48.

judgments about when people should be released. So you had a low

:19:49.:19:53.

release rate. All of these things get dealt with when people have more

:19:54.:19:57.

programmes and get themselves to place where the Parole Board can

:19:58.:20:00.

have more confidence about being released. I think under Keneth

:20:01.:20:04.

Clarke and I the Parole Board would have had more confidence that they

:20:05.:20:07.

will be supported by ministers in take sensible decision, I believe

:20:08.:20:10.

that still to be the case. We had statement from the Government

:20:11.:20:13.

tonight saying the release of prisoners serving indeterminate

:20:14.:20:19.

sentences is entirely a matter of the Parole Board, and we have no

:20:20.:20:24.

intention of retrospectively withdrawing IPP sentences. Is that

:20:25.:20:29.

the right response? The normal, when you change sentences you do not

:20:30.:20:34.

normally make it retrospective. Sentencing regimes exist at the time

:20:35.:20:37.

you are accept tenseited. There are people under particular release

:20:38.:20:40.

programmes because that was the law when they were sentenced, and that

:20:41.:20:44.

is the general principle. You say that is general, but could it be

:20:45.:20:50.

applied retrospective? It could have done, but there wouldn't be

:20:51.:20:53.

collective agreement to do it. How I wanted to address that was making

:20:54.:20:57.

absolutely crystal clear to the national offender management service

:20:58.:21:00.

that every day someone spent in prison, beyond their tarrif, when

:21:01.:21:05.

they hadn't completed the appropriate programmes, was then a

:21:06.:21:09.

self-inflicted injury. It meant we were keeping them in prison at the

:21:10.:21:14.

tax-payers' expense longer than they needed to be, without putting them

:21:15.:21:18.

in the best place to make the best presentation to the Parole Board. We

:21:19.:21:21.

have seen what it has done to some families, completely destroyed them,

:21:22.:21:30.

what is your message to Chris Grayling, given the numbers on

:21:31.:21:36.

outstanding indeterminate sentencing. The figures have gone

:21:37.:21:40.

down by 1,000 since I left in 2012. There has continued to be progress

:21:41.:21:44.

here, so gradually, and because now the tap has been turned off, because

:21:45.:21:48.

the sentences are no longer being imposed. That allows the system to

:21:49.:21:53.

focus more resources in terms of their sentence planning to make sure

:21:54.:21:56.

they complete their programmes whilst they are doing their

:21:57.:21:58.

punishment tarrif, and therefore they can have a better chance of

:21:59.:22:01.

being released at the first application to the Parole Board.

:22:02.:22:04.

That can't be sped up, there are some people, you know, you heard

:22:05.:22:08.

from Shaun, who was in there for eight years on a sentence that was

:22:09.:22:13.

fewer than three to beginning? I entirely agree with you. There must

:22:14.:22:17.

be plenty more like that. You must be thinking we can seriously

:22:18.:22:21.

accelerate this? Certainly the point I was putting rather strongly to the

:22:22.:22:27.

senior officials of the national offender management services is they

:22:28.:22:30.

had to focus resources in this area. I was having reports made regularly

:22:31.:22:33.

to me about the progress we were making and making sure that

:22:34.:22:36.

resources were being properly focussed. If people weren't getting

:22:37.:22:39.

to the Parole Board having at least had the chance to complete their

:22:40.:22:43.

programmes and address their offending behaviour, then it was

:22:44.:22:49.

both unjust and administratively stupid. Thank you very much for

:22:50.:22:53.

coming in. In the confusion of an unprecedented event, like a missing

:22:54.:22:57.

airliner, there is always claim and counter claim. Tonight an earlier

:22:58.:23:02.

suggestion has resurfaced that the Malaysian airlines plane was sending

:23:03.:23:07.

signals to a satellite for four hours after the aircraft went

:23:08.:23:10.

missing, an indication it was still flying. One pilot who knows what

:23:11.:23:16.

mid-flight emergency feels like is Chelsea Sullenberger, the hero of

:23:17.:23:22.

the landing that came to be known as "The Miracle on the Hudson". I spoke

:23:23.:23:27.

to him before we went on air and talked to him about how rare it is

:23:28.:23:31.

to have a plane simply vanish? It is very rare, it has happened over the

:23:32.:23:36.

60-year history of jet travel. In almost every case, with very few

:23:37.:23:41.

exceptions wreckage or the aeroplane itself is found. In almost every

:23:42.:23:45.

case the recorders are eventually found or recovered. Could a plane

:23:46.:23:50.

just disappear from radar, could plane have flown undetected for

:23:51.:23:55.

another four hours? Ground-based air traffic control radar only extends

:23:56.:24:00.

200 miles beyond the shoreline. Over open water where there is no radar

:24:01.:24:05.

coverage it could fly for an extended period of time. Is it your

:24:06.:24:09.

sense it might have happened in this case? It is very early. We have

:24:10.:24:13.

hardly any information or real hard evidence or data. But there is some

:24:14.:24:19.

indication that there are some primary or basic radar returns that

:24:20.:24:24.

might be correlated with this flight that indicate it headed to the south

:24:25.:24:28.

west, and perhaps continued in that direction. They are talking about

:24:29.:24:33.

the Indian Ocean now as a search ground, is it possible that the

:24:34.:24:37.

plane landed somewhere else undetected? Again, absent data we

:24:38.:24:43.

would simply be speculating. But that is theoretically possible. What

:24:44.:24:47.

is the first response of a pilot, would you contact somebody, would

:24:48.:24:52.

you try and connect with the ground? In spite of what many think, that

:24:53.:24:56.

actually is not the first thing, or even the second thing or sometimes

:24:57.:25:00.

even the third thing that a pilot would normally do. We have a very

:25:01.:25:05.

clear set of priorities, in fact we call them simple simply I have aate,

:25:06.:25:10.

navigate, communicate, in that order. That makes sense when you

:25:11.:25:15.

realise that somebody from outside the aeroplane is calling for rescue

:25:16.:25:19.

forces of where you are if you are uncertain of it and they couldn't

:25:20.:25:23.

provide much more assistance to you, it is up to the pilots in the

:25:24.:25:27.

cockpit to solve the problems they are facing. During the miracle on

:25:28.:25:35.

the Hudson, aviate came first, and navigate, how long before you

:25:36.:25:40.

communicated your position to those on the ground? It was probably 35

:25:41.:25:45.

seconds after the bird strike and Jins were lost. A lot happened in

:25:46.:25:52.

those 30 seconds. The entire time for the thrust loss to the time we

:25:53.:25:57.

went down was 230 seconds. The work rate was so high that my first

:25:58.:26:01.

officer and I didn't have time to have a conversation about what had

:26:02.:26:06.

just happened. Tell me of the way this investigation is being handled

:26:07.:26:12.

so far, by the Malaysian authorities? It is complicated in a

:26:13.:26:16.

number of ways. The aircraft was manufactured in the United States.

:26:17.:26:20.

The engines were manufactured in Great Britain, I think. The airline

:26:21.:26:25.

is based in Malaysia, air traffic controllers were involved from

:26:26.:26:29.

Malaysia and Vietnam. It is an international effort. I'm not

:26:30.:26:35.

terribly surprised that there is some confusion or disagreement about

:26:36.:26:39.

facts when there are so few facts. We know that Americans are now

:26:40.:26:44.

involved in the investigation warships we are told are involved

:26:45.:26:55.

and sent to the straits. If you were leading the the in -- the

:26:56.:26:59.

investigation, what would you do? One of the most promising avenues is

:27:00.:27:04.

to look at the primary radar communications recorded by the

:27:05.:27:08.

Malaysian side and see if there was in fact a turn to the south west and

:27:09.:27:12.

see what direction it went and begin look anything that direction. Which

:27:13.:27:16.

I believe some of the search pattern indicates the Malaysians have

:27:17.:27:19.

already done. Thank you very much indeed. The 40p tax rate used to be

:27:20.:27:27.

the rate that Conservative Governments of the past thought the

:27:28.:27:31.

rich should pay, increasingly those on more moderate salaries are also

:27:32.:27:35.

being dragged into the 40p bracket. Now there is growing unease amongst

:27:36.:27:39.

today's Conservatives that it is a failure to adjust the rate is

:27:40.:27:42.

penalising many who are far from wealthy. In a moment we will debate

:27:43.:27:46.

the political argument behind the figures. This is our policy editor

:27:47.:27:52.

first. The Chancellor's reforming budget cuts the basic rate of tax by

:27:53.:27:57.

2p, but the highest earners see their top rate slashed by 20p and

:27:58.:28:04.

the opposition erupts in fury. Shame slam shame shame Back in the day the

:28:05.:28:15.

40p tax rate even made it on to Newsnight. Nigel Lawson had just cut

:28:16.:28:23.

it from 60p. The 40p band is no longer the highest rate of income

:28:24.:28:25.

tax reserved for the very richest. It is now causing trouble for a new

:28:26.:28:31.

reason. Lots of people now earn more than about ?40,000 a year, the

:28:32.:28:38.

threshold for the 40p rate. In 1990, under 7% of tax-payers earned more

:28:39.:28:42.

than the 40p threshold. That was about 1. 7 million people. But that

:28:43.:28:52.

has risen to 16% of tax-payers. That is 4. 7 million. Many of whom you

:28:53.:28:57.

wouldn't regard as big earners. Back in 1990 it would have taken a 50%

:28:58.:29:03.

pay rise to get the average teachers into the 40p tax bracket. Nowadays a

:29:04.:29:11.

lot of them are there. The average London secondary school teacher

:29:12.:29:15.

earns ?40,000. The police are there, male officers ranked Sergeant or

:29:16.:29:20.

below, they average more than ?40,000 a year. Nurses are much

:29:21.:29:23.

worse paid than policemen or teachers, but even so, 15% of nurses

:29:24.:29:30.

are higher rate tax-payers. How did that happen? Paul Johnson, director

:29:31.:29:35.

of the Institute for Fiscal Studies explains. This has been happening

:29:36.:29:39.

for a long time, 30 years at least. Earnings have risen a bit faster

:29:40.:29:43.

than prices on the whole. But the point at which you start to pay

:29:44.:29:48.

higher rate tax has only gone up in prices, it drags more people in.

:29:49.:29:53.

That happened since 2010. Since 2010 the coalition has drawn more people

:29:54.:29:57.

into the 40p band deliberately as a way of making it a bit cheaper to

:29:58.:30:01.

increase the personal allowance and increase the point at which people

:30:02.:30:05.

start paying income tax at all. To get the proportion of the work force

:30:06.:30:10.

in the 40p bracket, back down to 1990 levels, the threshold would

:30:11.:30:15.

need to rise from just over ?40,000 to around ?67,000. A big jump like

:30:16.:30:22.

that just isn't easily affordable. But some Conservative MPs think that

:30:23.:30:26.

the threshold needs to start moving in that direction. If we want to

:30:27.:30:33.

look after middle Britain. , you know a certainly think an area where

:30:34.:30:37.

a lot of people have been saying the Chancellor should look hard at is

:30:38.:30:42.

this concept of fiscal drag, where more middle-class earners are forced

:30:43.:30:46.

to pay 40% rate. Has the Conservative Party lost the ability

:30:47.:30:49.

and right to campaign as a tax cutting party? We have cut taxes. We

:30:50.:30:53.

have cut taxes for 26 million people. We have cut taxes to the

:30:54.:30:58.

extend, at the lowest threshold, so there are two-and-a-half million

:30:59.:31:02.

more people who aren't saying tax. So we have been tax cutting, but the

:31:03.:31:07.

emphasis has been focussed much more at the lower end not the higher end.

:31:08.:31:13.

It is hard to offer much assistance to higher rate tax-payers.

:31:14.:31:16.

Politically they are a hard sell. They are well off. Economically they

:31:17.:31:22.

are big payers, they contribute two thirds of all income tax receipts,

:31:23.:31:26.

being generous to them is very expensive.

:31:27.:31:30.

George Osborne, the current Chancellor has helped out higher

:31:31.:31:34.

rate payers with the rise in the personal tax allowance to nearly

:31:35.:31:39.

?10,000. But that policy is associated with the Liberal

:31:40.:31:44.

Democrats. No wonder some Conservatives now long for a little

:31:45.:31:49.

bit of Lawsonian tax cutting that they can campaign on. Chris Cook

:31:50.:31:57.

discussed that, and Lord Lamont a former Chancellor of the Exchequer,

:31:58.:32:01.

and Lord Oakeshott a Lib Dem peer. Do you have any sympathy with those

:32:02.:32:05.

who don't consider themselves to be amongst the wealthy and yet have

:32:06.:32:10.

been dragged into the 40p bracket? Obviously life is hard for many

:32:11.:32:15.

people, including people on middle incomes, but it is even harder for

:32:16.:32:18.

the people at the bottom of the scale, particularly people

:32:19.:32:25.

struggling on ?8,000 or ?10,000 a year, they are the people the

:32:26.:32:27.

Liberal Democrats have been determined to help and concentrate

:32:28.:32:32.

on the help on in jacking up the tax threshold so fast. But the people in

:32:33.:32:39.

the middle are not wealthy, they are secondary school teachers living in

:32:40.:32:43.

London, facing the cost of living, seeing 52p in their pound going to

:32:44.:32:47.

the Treasury? They may not be stinking rich, but by the standards

:32:48.:32:51.

of the country as a whole, they are middling rich. Remember as it just

:32:52.:32:54.

pointed out, we are talking about the top sixth of people. There are

:32:55.:32:58.

30 million tax-payers. Less than five million of them are paying this

:32:59.:33:03.

rate. To an awful lot of people certainly outside London and the

:33:04.:33:09.

south-east, earning ?800, ?900 a week is pretty well off. We mustn't

:33:10.:33:14.

be Londoncentric here. It still sounds quite a lot of money and

:33:15.:33:18.

quite a nice bracket to be in? It may be quite a lot of money, but

:33:19.:33:23.

emphasis on the "quite". We are talking about balance, of course

:33:24.:33:26.

there is an argument for giving relief at the bottom, but will that

:33:27.:33:31.

be at the price of really squeezing the centre, people who are teachers,

:33:32.:33:35.

nurses, tube drivers, or Staff Sergeant in the army, people just

:33:36.:33:39.

earning ?40,000, it is not a lot of money. Those people have been

:33:40.:33:44.

dragged into this 40% ban. This has gone up 36% since 2010, it is

:33:45.:33:51.

thought by 2015 there will be six million people in this band. When

:33:52.:33:56.

Nigel Lawson first introduced it, it was one in twenty, today it is one

:33:57.:34:02.

in six. The Government has actually stopped those people being worse

:34:03.:34:05.

off, actually because of the affect of the raising of the tax threshold

:34:06.:34:10.

at the bottom. Since 2010, and Monday is desperately tight, we have

:34:11.:34:15.

been through an economic crisis with real wages squeezed, these people on

:34:16.:34:20.

the 40p rate are slightly better off than they would have been, they gain

:34:21.:34:24.

more by getting a tax threshold than any other. The Government has

:34:25.:34:27.

protected that, and I don't think they are the priority. Lord

:34:28.:34:31.

Oakeshott is right, but it is only the half story, they are better off

:34:32.:34:35.

than they would have otherwise been, that is true. But they are dragged

:34:36.:34:42.

into the 42% because they have to pay a diminished rate of national

:34:43.:34:51.

insurance as well. That is moderate incomes that is on. If it goes on as

:34:52.:34:55.

a policy it will be dead. We are raising more and more tax from the

:34:56.:35:01.

higher, from fewer and fewer people. The people paying 40% who he is

:35:02.:35:06.

saying are a small group are giving as much tax revenue as all the basic

:35:07.:35:11.

rate people put together. Now that can't be right. I think you are

:35:12.:35:17.

going to hit a buffer if you go on squeezing and squeezing and

:35:18.:35:21.

squeezing. In a few years time when things are easier it could be looked

:35:22.:35:24.

at again. We are still recovering from a desperate economic crash, and

:35:25.:35:29.

real wages and earnings are well below than at the peak. Average

:35:30.:35:32.

earnings for most people in work are going up at 1% a year. Public

:35:33.:35:37.

services are being under enormous pressure. It is not the priority to

:35:38.:35:43.

give a tax cut to the relatively well off. Where do you put the

:35:44.:35:49.

limit, we have heard ?67,000, that would cost a lot of money. Where

:35:50.:35:53.

would you put it now? I think there ought to be rise in the threshold of

:35:54.:35:59.

40% maybe to ?44,000 or something like that as a first step. But long

:36:00.:36:07.

run you can't go on and on not increasing this commensurate with

:36:08.:36:10.

earnings, because you will end up dragging more people. You will end

:36:11.:36:14.

with a situation where the 40% becomes a basic rate. That is

:36:15.:36:17.

complete nonsense. Do you agree with the question that Chris put, that

:36:18.:36:21.

the Conservatives have, at present, lost the ability to call themselves

:36:22.:36:25.

the party of tax cutting? No, I don't agree with that. Obviously

:36:26.:36:31.

everyone has benefitted, all but a few people, from the personal

:36:32.:36:36.

allowance, but that is very limited. If we go on and on with the policy

:36:37.:36:40.

we will lose the ability to call ourselves the tax cutting party.

:36:41.:36:44.

Because more and more people will be paying a rate of tax which when it

:36:45.:36:49.

was introduced by Nigel Lawson was intended to be the tax rate of the

:36:50.:36:53.

very rich. The Liberal Democrats will only concentrate on the bottom

:36:54.:36:59.

percentile. We still think that people who are struggling with major

:37:00.:37:06.

problems, and people in work trying to have the benefit of going to

:37:07.:37:10.

work. That should be concentrated down there. Let me just say, we have

:37:11.:37:15.

enormous pressure on public services and spending. I'm proud tonight, I

:37:16.:37:19.

have just been to see my first grandchild at St Thomas's Hospital,

:37:20.:37:23.

I'm delighted the National Health Service is there and I'm happy to

:37:24.:37:27.

pay the tax to keep it going. Would you advise in the suggest measure on

:37:28.:37:32.

this one to David Cameron? They have to do something at some point that

:37:33.:37:36.

everybody is being squeezed, but the people in the middle more than

:37:37.:37:41.

anyone else. Not so long ago the OACD warned that Britain was relying

:37:42.:37:48.

on too narrow a base for incomes tax. We don't think we are all in it

:37:49.:37:54.

together if you cut the tax rate for the rich now.

:37:55.:37:59.

If you have a child or you have been diagnosed with Attention Deficit

:38:00.:38:03.

Disorder, chances are you think it exists. But a Dr Richard Sal says it

:38:04.:38:11.

doesn't. He thinks it is the symptoms of other conditions, and

:38:12.:38:13.

thousands of children are treated with drugs they don't need as a

:38:14.:38:19.

result. His theory has kicked off a controversy.

:38:20.:38:23.

Often has trouble keeping attention on tasks. Avoids or doesn't want to

:38:24.:38:29.

do things that... . It is the most common condition in the UK, these

:38:30.:38:37.

were helped to point out what ADHD is. 11-year-old Kye was identified

:38:38.:38:43.

with the disorder when I was six. Like most people with ADHD, he has a

:38:44.:38:49.

secondary condition, in his case mild autism. You can handle it and

:38:50.:38:54.

have pretty severe cases where you can have talking difficulties, you

:38:55.:39:01.

can get angry, a bit too easily. Just lash out at people. You don't

:39:02.:39:09.

think before you do anything. I go through phases of running away from

:39:10.:39:13.

home. The number of children like Kye, recognised as suffering from

:39:14.:39:17.

ADHD has more than doubled in a decade. But rates in this country

:39:18.:39:20.

are still a fraction of what they are in the US where 8. 8% of

:39:21.:39:26.

children are now diagnosed with the condition. Some British doctors

:39:27.:39:32.

believe many ADHD cases are often missed. There is now a broad

:39:33.:39:36.

scientific consensus that a complex mix of genetic and environmental

:39:37.:39:40.

factors are responsible for the condition. Everyone can get bored

:39:41.:39:45.

and fail to pay attention, and lots of people do daft things. But this

:39:46.:39:49.

is part of human variation, it is when it is extreme, and, most

:39:50.:39:53.

importantly, when it is impairing. The fact that it is messing up their

:39:54.:39:56.

lives and they can't help it. That is when you have an ADHD diagnosis?

:39:57.:40:03.

It is, it must be ADHD in its own right, not because of some other

:40:04.:40:07.

undetected condition. A new book creating a lot of controversy... The

:40:08.:40:15.

title of the book "ADHD Does Not Exist". One doctor disagrees with

:40:16.:40:22.

the main consensus, he argues those symptoms can be caused by something

:40:23.:40:25.

as simple as poor eyesight or diet. That is raising a lot of eyebrows?

:40:26.:40:30.

It is just an excuse according to one American scientist. Ky, he's

:40:31.:40:35.

mother takes issue with it, and she says her son has worked hard to

:40:36.:40:41.

control the condition and crucial have controlled his aggressive and

:40:42.:40:46.

disruptive behaviour. Let him raise a child with the condition, it is

:40:47.:40:51.

easy to sit outside and judge.? You feel it is real? Yes, nobody thinks

:40:52.:41:01.

otherwise. If you need the support, there isn't enough support out there

:41:02.:41:06.

for them. I'm not excusing bad behaviour in any way. Kye is getting

:41:07.:41:21.

the help needs, and more children need this kind of support. Sceptics

:41:22.:41:26.

think too many are misdiagnosed with a disorder that simply doesn't

:41:27.:41:31.

exist. We had hoped that Dr Richard Sol would be joining us tonight, but

:41:32.:41:34.

we have had problems getting him into the right studio in Chicago.

:41:35.:41:40.

We're joined by Andrea, who founded the national Attention Deficit

:41:41.:41:43.

Disorder information and support service. We are grateful you have

:41:44.:41:47.

come in. Is it conceivable that it has been misdiagnosed so widely that

:41:48.:41:52.

it has been symptoms that have been mistaken for ADHD when it was

:41:53.:41:57.

something else? You know this is a condition that has been so widely

:41:58.:42:01.

researched. 10,000 research papers over many years. Research conducted

:42:02.:42:07.

by the top academic researchers in the world. It is the most researches

:42:08.:42:12.

condition it is. You say that as if that is the end of the research, if

:42:13.:42:15.

somebody is producing a new understanding that suggests maybe

:42:16.:42:20.

that children have been drugged needlessly. Put on medicines

:42:21.:42:23.

needlessly, are you not considered in considering that? I have read his

:42:24.:42:31.

book and it seems to me this is an 80-year-old man living in the 1950s,

:42:32.:42:35.

the information in his book is outdated. There is a chapter in his

:42:36.:42:38.

book where he talk about a child who displays all the symptoms of ADHD,

:42:39.:42:44.

very impulsive, hyperactive, distractible, runs around. And he

:42:45.:42:50.

says this boy has something I called neurochemical distractibility

:42:51.:42:53.

impulse disorder. That is exactly the same thing. He streets with

:42:54.:42:58.

Ritalin. He also talks about finding children who have had an eyesight

:42:59.:43:03.

problem or diet street problem and working out by solving the

:43:04.:43:07.

fundamental, the real, as he would say, issue, you get rid of the

:43:08.:43:12.

symptoms that had been understood as ADHD? He's talking about something

:43:13.:43:17.

different. When you make a diagnosis of ADHD, the first thing is rule out

:43:18.:43:22.

all of those things. You also have to understand that America and the

:43:23.:43:25.

UK are very different in the way they approach and diagnose and treat

:43:26.:43:33.

ADHD. We are very ruling out any Tory condition that might mimic

:43:34.:43:37.

ADHD. That is not the case in the US. Will this have ramifications

:43:38.:43:41.

here? What the book has done, it is a very good publicity stunt, he has

:43:42.:43:47.

called his book ADHD Does Not Exist, that is not what he says in the

:43:48.:43:51.

book. The title is to mislead you, he says in the book he has given the

:43:52.:43:55.

provocative title to get the publicity and sell his book. I wish

:43:56.:43:59.

you were here to give us the response for that, thank you very

:44:00.:44:02.

much for coming in. Before we go I will take you through the papers:

:44:03.:45:08.

Now, on what instrument did Bach compose his cello suites. You might

:45:09.:45:21.

think the cello, but research by a conductor suggests that the genius

:45:22.:45:28.

wrote it on a cello, but an extricked instrument. He will bring

:45:29.:45:32.

the instrument alive at the Queen Elizabeth Hall playing with the

:45:33.:45:37.

orchestra in the age of enlightenment. Here we have the

:45:38.:45:39.

third cello suite. Good night. No doubt you have plans for the

:45:40.:47:11.

weekend, looking OK for most of us. We are not there yet, a foggy start

:47:12.:47:15.

to the day across England and

:47:16.:47:16.

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