14/03/2014 Newsnight


14/03/2014

Peace campaigner or the man who split Labour. Who was the real Tony Benn? Dennis Healey tells us. Mark Urban is in Ukraine. David Hare on his new film.


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Transcript


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Not many politicians have followers so devoted that they take their

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name, to one generation the begin nights were the hard -- the Bennites

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were the ones that split Labour. But to others the people with the

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courage to stand up with the poor and powerless. Who was the real

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Anthony Wedgwood Benn. We're here to start a new political movement. I we

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talk to Denis Healey, the man who stopped his rise to power. In my

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view he was an artificial lefty. An artificial lefty? I think he was

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trying to prove he was working-class. He was very ashamed

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of his upper-class background really. So will he be remembered for

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dripping poison into his party or all that's best of British? In

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Crimea they prepare for the referendum on leaving Ukraine and

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joining Russia. But is the vote just a prelude to a greater conflict.

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This is battle of wills that the Russians intend to win, starting

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with that referendum here on Sunday. And this. Back in the old days it

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would take a whole lifetime to destroy the reputation of a

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politician or banker. But now, as we know, someone just hits send and it

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can happen overnight. Playwright David Hare turns his fire on the

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books. We talk to the man who has delighted and challenged audiences

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from stage left. Tony Benn, who died aged 88 believed with words

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parliament had tamed kings, restrained tyrants and averted

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revolution. Yet with his own golden tongue he entertained and infuriated

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in equal measure. Arguably he helped split the Labour Party in the 1980s.

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Although he had been on the Government payroll as a minister, he

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came to believe there wasn't much point in just improving the system.

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Instead it had to be transforeign minister all -- transformed all

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together. Despite his profile and popularity, achieving that kind of

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change alluded him. Tony Benn, not a wide-eyed trot, but a very English

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phenomenon. English phenomenon. There are many who fit the cliche,

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socialist when young, capitalist with age. Tony Benn properly bucked

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the trend. He was a towering figure within the Labour Party, serving as

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an MP for more than half a century. The British public have been

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awakened, not just on the mining industry, but to the whole rotten

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philosophy of the 1980s, that it is all about cash and you bring in a

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chartered accountant andest tells you what to do. It isn't about that,

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it is about whether our society puts people in a place of dignity and

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service them or whether you just hand over your money to gamblers who

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don't create any wealth at all. It was the appeal he had outside

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parliament that really captured his achievements. He came to

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Glastonbury, he even appeared with Ali G. Come on you are not living in

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the real world, you are living in a world where everybody is so bloody

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greedy that there is no hope of building a better society and that's

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why we are in a mess. Fool you! Tony Benn constantly questioned

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where power came from? And how it was used. Passionate and articulate,

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with a clipped tones and pronounced vowells even after he relinquished

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his title, Sir Anthony Wedgwood Ben, there was no descent into mockney to

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prove he was a man of the people. This is a matter that would have to

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be decided by Bristol. I'm a servant of the people of the Bristol. They

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have to decide if they wanted me. I'm a member of the Labour Party, so

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the Labour leaders would have to be brought into such a discussion.

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To the generations who came after him, he appealed as a true

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conviction politician. When he took to the stump, campaigning against

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the Iraq War, millions listened. We are here today to found a new

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political movement worldwide. The biggest demonstration ever in

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Britain, the first global demonstration and its first cause is

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to prevent a war against Iraq. And yet many within his own party will

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remember him as a truly devisive figure. He served as Secretary of

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State in the Wilson and Callaghan Governments, but it was after Labour

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was ousted in 1979 that things got bitter. Every day I'm getting more

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messages, and I think the reason is very clear. People want the next

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Labour Government to do what it says it will do. He waged a destructive

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battle as the champion of the left against Denis Healey, for the deputy

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leadership of the party. Ultimately he lost. Tony Benn, 49. 574. Denis

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Healey 50. 426. While his conviction was dedoubtable, his failure to

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compromise and his manoeuvrings were also seen as flaws.

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He eventually left parliament to, in his words, concentrate on politics,

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he was a prolific diary writer and deeply thoughtful man. Happy to

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admit he had the kind of self-doubt that often led him to question his

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decisions. I think anyone has to be self-critical if they are going to

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make sense of their own experience and opinions. And I often ask myself

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am I right about this, am I wrong about it?

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What of the Labour of then, and the Labour of now? On a personal level

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he knew Ed Miliband has family friend, today the leader of the

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opposition described him as a champion of the powerless. The thing

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about Tony Benn is you always knew what he stood for and who he stood

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up for. And I think that's why he was admired right across the

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political spectrum. Today those who felt his to be the "wrong sort of

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Labour" may stay silent. But there are some on the left who see Tony

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Benn not just as iconic, but as prophetic. His politics were not

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always easy to swallow. But they were consistent, provocative and to

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many inspiring. As Emily suggested, Tony Benn's most devisive battle was

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perhaps with the former Labour Chancellor, Lord Healey, now 96

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years old. Who he fought for the deputy leadership of the party, and

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lost, just. This afternoon I went to talk to the man who was Tony Benn's

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enemy, but later in life became his friend. I asked him what Benn was

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like when the pair were first elected to parliament in 1952. Well

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he was, me my view, an artificial lefty at that time. An artificial

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lefty? I think he was trying to prove he was working-class. He was

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very ashamed of his upper-class background really. At the worst

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time, when the party was full of splits, when he stood against you,

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how much bitterness was there? There was quite a lot of bitterness,

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really. Because I felt he was doing the party enormous damage, and I'm

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sure he was at that time by the way he behaved, not just his views. But

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as I say all that disappeared in later life. What do you mean by the

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way he behaved? Well, that he would be extremely route and offensive in

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what he said. Rude to you, offensive to you? Yes, a little bit, but then

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I was offensive to him. Was he toxic to the Labour Party? It was damaging

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to us, without question. But what was most damaging was the divisions,

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caused by the views. Because most people knew nothing about the issues

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we disagreed on. But they disagreed, that they disliked immensely hearing

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people in the same party being rude to one another. Was that his fault?

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I think it was, mainly, yes. How did he go from being such a toxic figure

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in the Labour Party to becoming a national treasure sure, almost a

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grandfather of British politics? I think his views softened enormously.

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And you know, he was at one time leading a toxic left-wing and I mean

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people like Michael Foot loathed him, because he did the party so

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much damage by the way he talked. Although Michael shared many of his

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views. What was he like? Tony at the end, well he was still you know a

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man with a golden tongue, but he was totally unaggressive. Where as when

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he was young he was very aggressive, and indeed. And I think that was

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partly his need to prove that he had broken with his family background. I

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think he really wanted to prove he was left-wing. He couldn't prove he

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was working-class because he wasn't, it was the opposite. Did you like

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him? I disliked him intensely when we disagreed with one another, but

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we had very good relations in our late life. Tony Benn also famously

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said that broadcasting is too important to be left to the

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broadcasters. With me are the Liberal Democrat peer, Shirley

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Williams, Labour MP Diane abbot, and Tim Montgomerie, comment editor at

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the Times. Diane abbot, it is rare a politician captures the imagination

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of so many people. Do you accept what was said there that Tony Benn

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did damage to the Labour Party? It wasn't his views softened, it was

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positions he took up in relation to Ireland, issues like gay marriage,

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race, women, they became very mainstream. People forget part of

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Tony Benn's victory, in a lot of the things he espoused early on in his

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career became mainstream. The damage you could argue was it the SDP

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walking out to cause the damage or people talking about party democracy

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causing damage. It was a difficult period. But he was an inspirational

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gig that brought people into politics. In the end people like

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people who they think really believe what they are saying. I came this

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evening from a birthday party, with a lot of black and minority ethnic

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people there, they wanted me to say tonight that people need to remember

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how much black people loved Tony Benn, you guys are in the political

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bubble. For the people outside the political bubble, Tony Benn spoke

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for people who didn't have a voice. It is rare to have that, and we will

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come back to that. Shirley Williams you were one of the people who

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walked out and you started as young MPs together. Was it his views that

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led you and your colleagues to the exit door, how instrumental was he

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in that? Not really. I think Tony in the 60s was a mainstream politician,

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and a very good minister for technology. I think frankly in the

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70s he had subscribed to a great extent to a pretty far left with

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militant tendency. No he didn't. He was never a member of the militant

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left. I know becau I was on the national executive. I was there. I

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was on the national executive week after week after week and you were

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not. He was not a member of the militant tendency. I was on the NEC

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Not for the whole period. Here is an example of how devisive he could be.

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He was never a member of the Militant Tendency. When I started I

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said he subscribed to some of the views. You can check the record I

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did not say he was a member. I did say and I mean it that he was

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supportive of them. And when issues came up at the national executive,

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like the appointment of the National Youth Officer. , the best national

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agent the Labour Party had, that was laid on the table, never opened

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again and that was partly because Tony was chairman of the Home Policy

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Committee and said we are not going to open it. He was instrumental in

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making things happen. I think he was pretty instrumental. He was

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outrageous in the way he treated Harold Wilson and Jim Callaghan,

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they were not traitors to the Labour Government, which I think Tony

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implied. They were men who worked very hard, especially Jim Callaghan.

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I thought he was very damaging to the Labour movement at that point. I

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don't think it was through the 60s, but during the 70s it is hard to

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argue anything else. The Sun called him the most dangerous man in

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Britain, do you think Conservative voters or people leaning that way

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really thought that. Did they really believe that? While sections of the

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left had some internal conversations? Absolutely, by the

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end of the 1970s, the Government I by which Tony Benn was a leading

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part, people felt was ungovernable to many people. And the split

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between Diane and Shirley, that split on the left of British

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politics was the reason or one of the key reasons why Margaret

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Thatcher was able to win those decisive majorities she did. The

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split on the left with the decisive fact in British politics for a long

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period. It was the unreasonableness of Tony Benn, testified to there by

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Denis Healey, that created that division. But do you think people

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really thought he was dangerous, some kind of bogeyman, that is

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hyperbole, headline writing? I don't think so, if you look at some of the

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positions he took, particularly on nuclear disarment. That was a period

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when many people genuinely feared what the Soviet Union represented.

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That was a time in the world when people were very frightened. His

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support for giving up our nuclear weapons, leaving Britain potentially

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defenceless against what Ronald Regan correctly described as the

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evil empire, people worried about that. People weren't frightened of

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him. When he went out in the 80s and 90s and spoke to people, the same

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blue rinse brigade, and he was extremely popular and his ideas were

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popular, to call him a member of the militant tendency is bizarre. I did

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not say that, I said he subscribed to some of its ideas. In terms of

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that do you accept there was a nervousness amongst many voters

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about the positions he took. You said his views were mainstream, but

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for many people they weren't? His views on thing things like on the

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Iraq War. Tabloid newspapers said he was clinically insane, the terrible

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things they used to write. No wonder Tory ladies were frightened of him.

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What he did have, no doubt Shirley Williams, if you look at the green

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benches he was a politician people believed, and they believed that he

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believed what he was saying? That is perfectly true. I accept that, and I

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think that tony said what he believed, and fought it very

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strongly. I think the implication he's unique in that annoys me.

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Somebody like Michael Foot, who was very different in his attitude

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towards, particularly parliament, which he vastly admired, much more

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than Tony Benn was not treated. Do we have that now? No, a lot of the

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more colourful characters have moved on. Now we have politicians who seem

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rather like one another. That is partly because the divisions have

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narrowed between political parties quite substantially, I think. And

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partly because of some of the things Tony addressed. What is interesting

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is he was yearning for a world that had gone. I don't think he was

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tremenduously a man of the modern world. Hang on you can have your

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opinion in the minute. Speaking at Glastonbury, packing out Town Halls

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around the country. Let me finish the sentence. He didn't really

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recognise that the world was becoming global and he wasn't in

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that sense a politician who had a global view? What do you say to

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that? I think he was a great internationalist, whether it was his

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position on Iraq, on apartheid. I was against Iraq too, so was my

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party. Was he someone whose time had passed? It is extraordinary, he's so

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popular, not with the blue rinse ladies but with young people. He was

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an inspirational figure. He was also actually a very kind man and

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incredibly courteous, if all politicians had his intellectual

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curiosity and his curtesy parliament would be a better place. I'm going

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to talk, you two are never going to agree, Shirley we will come back to

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you in one second. But Tim, where are the equivalents, whether on the

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left or right, or somewhere in the middle. Are those characters there?

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I think there are some characterists, like Dan Hannon, they

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agree with Tony Benn on democracy. Lots on the right think where he

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stood on Europe, the idea I think he once said that outside of the

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Kremlin there is no organisation where there is less accountability

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than the European Union. His belief that we should be able to change the

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people who make our laws in a democracy, he would be standing with

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all sorts of the most interesting people in politics on that

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democratic question. Interesting that none of those people are in

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particularly senior positions. Shirley, finally to you, you knew

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him for the longest time. What was he like and what will you remember,

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briefly you if you could? He was a fine thinking, he was an interesting

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man who came up with new ideas. He was not unique in being for example

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against Iraq, some remember that the entire party which I happened to be

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involved in was against Iraq and he was, for example, not unique in

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being in favour of gay marriage, because Roy Jenkins who was the

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other extreme, the right-wing of the Labour Party was the man who brought

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in the actual legislation about homosexuality in a way that Tony

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wasn't in a position to do. I think with great respect that Diane is

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giving him credit for all sorts of things which other Labour

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politicians absolutely aspired. You two can continue this conversation,

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but I am afraid we have run out of time. Thank you all very much for

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coming in this evening. Now, the Russian and American foreign policy

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bosses at least talked face-to-face today about Ukraine. But as soon as

:20:13.:20:21.

emerged that John Kerry and Sergei Lavrov had booked separate venues

:20:22.:20:25.

for their press conferences, it was thought nothing could be achieved.

:20:26.:20:28.

They couldn't be further apart on this crisis. The Americans say this

:20:29.:20:33.

referendum on Crimea is illegal. Russia, not surprisingly will

:20:34.:20:38.

respect the result. Well we're there tonight. Is there anything more the

:20:39.:20:46.

west can do to stop this vote from actually happening? Well, it is

:20:47.:20:48.

fascinating question, one of the things that's become really clear in

:20:49.:20:55.

this is President Putin's desire to control this crisis. If you like the

:20:56.:21:00.

escalate or deescalate controller. We have seen that today with what

:21:01.:21:05.

was said in London. For example there has been another example in

:21:06.:21:11.

Ukraine of violence between pro-Russian and anti-Russian people.

:21:12.:21:15.

Will it lead to issues in Ukraine, you have no ideas from the London

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meeting with Lavrov today. John Kerry said one thing clear was

:21:23.:21:27.

President Putin didn't want to make any decisions on the crisis until

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after the Sunday referendum in Crimea. Countries opposed to what

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he's trying to do will have their say in the United Nations tomorrow.

:21:35.:21:37.

We know of course that Russia will veto that. And meanwhile, everything

:21:38.:21:42.

is building up towards that vote and you get an absolutely clear

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impression on the ground of Russia's determination to prevail here.

:21:47.:21:53.

Crimea's political connection to Ukraine is now a slender slither of

:21:54.:22:01.

land. Coming in by train you speed past a Ukrainian army checkpoint

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that effectively marks a border with part of their own country. Arriving

:22:07.:22:15.

here locals with armband, Russians are there to ensure order and stop

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new comesers to search them. For some people, like the couple of

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hundred who lined the roads, this is a future they don't want to share.

:22:32.:22:36.

It is to show not everyone in Crimea supports Russia, and actually a lot

:22:37.:22:40.

of people are for Ukraine, and we don't want to be a Bart of Russia.

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But Travelling an hour east along the road we found out how hard it is

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to stand in the way of Crimea's return to Russia. Just above the

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town is a huge zoo and tourist attraction. Falling in behind his

:22:59.:23:04.

referendum battle wagon, we joined its owner, an ardent supporter of

:23:05.:23:08.

the union with Russia, who took us on a tour of Europe's largest

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collection... Of tigers and lions. And where as President Putin might

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like the idea of wrestling lions, Oleg actually does. I have been in

:23:24.:23:33.

some tricky situations, I wasn't quite expecting to find myself

:23:34.:23:38.

face-to-face with lions, while discussing the Crimea referendum.

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The lion park's owner is not only wealthy and well connected, but he

:23:44.:23:47.

has helped organise the local self-defence group as well as the

:23:48.:23:51.

referendum and is convinced where Crimea's destiny lies. TRANSLATION:

:23:52.:24:01.

I think our future is Russia, separation was a mistake by crush

:24:02.:24:06.

shove, this will be corrected. Nobody could imagine the events that

:24:07.:24:10.

the USSR would collapse, and the Crimea would transfer to the Ukraine

:24:11.:24:13.

and with such consequences. Who would believe it would end in such a

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dirty trick. The spirit here is more Russian than Ukrainian. Down here

:24:20.:24:28.

there is resistence, in this community of 50,000, the mayor

:24:29.:24:36.

refused to carry out Sunday's referendum. TRANSLATION: I initially

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addressed the citizens, urging them in such difficult times we should

:24:41.:24:45.

all remain calm, not to be addressive or provocative to each

:24:46.:24:49.

other. I did this to prevent the situation getting out of control. To

:24:50.:24:56.

risk a sma spark ignighting a big fire. The mayor's warning has been

:24:57.:25:00.

ignored, he has been bypassed by local officials, who are now working

:25:01.:25:07.

hard to prepare ballot papers for Sunday's vote. They invited us in to

:25:08.:25:12.

see. It is no mean feat, since the sudden announcement of the poll left

:25:13.:25:27.

no time for a new electoral register The mix of identities here causes

:25:28.:25:34.

this split. While the tatas, of whom the mayor is one have dark memories

:25:35.:25:37.

of Soviet times, local Russians would gladly have them back.

:25:38.:25:44.

TRANSLATION: To me this is a historical moment, a restoration of

:25:45.:25:49.

what became a smaller motherland to my great motherland that is Russia.

:25:50.:25:55.

Those who oppose the referendum will boycott it, that is not just tatas,

:25:56.:25:59.

we found local Ukrainians planning to as well. TRANSLATION: I think

:26:00.:26:06.

this is an occupation. Occupiers have invaded our land. We have lived

:26:07.:26:10.

with Russians in peace and harmony since ancient times, and now he

:26:11.:26:16.

wants to start world war three, we don't want war. That message on the

:26:17.:26:22.

banner, that Crimea is Russian, is one that most people in the

:26:23.:26:26.

territory would subscribe to. But this town is split. And pushing the

:26:27.:26:30.

referendum through will leave a legacy of bitterness that could sow

:26:31.:26:42.

the seeds of future strife. This man already senses victory, a powerful

:26:43.:26:48.

majority for union with Russia, leaving the Catholicics penned in by

:26:49.:27:02.

their own ideas. Does art get at the truth before

:27:03.:27:05.

history can write it. Sir David Hare, one of our most celebrated

:27:06.:27:10.

playwrights has sent 40 years chronicling many of our biggest

:27:11.:27:18.

events. Normally from stage left. His play, The Permanent Way

:27:19.:27:22.

dramatised the sell-off of the railways. The latest work, a trilogy

:27:23.:27:26.

for TV takes on the spooks, with plots that could have been torn from

:27:27.:27:31.

the headlines and a stellar cast too. In a moment he will talk to us,

:27:32.:27:46.

mere is a thriver. What do you do? I'm financial PR. What is that? If

:27:47.:27:53.

you haven't heard of Gladstone. Years ago it would take a lifetime

:27:54.:28:00.

to destroy the reputation of a Dr Or a banker -- doctor or a banker, now

:28:01.:28:04.

you just hit send and it can happen overnight. It is my job to keep the

:28:05.:28:08.

company's good name. Does Gladstone have a good name? Good enough. Sir

:28:09.:28:16.

David is here with us now. In modern times we have always had the

:28:17.:28:19.

Security Services, there has always been intrigue around them, whether

:28:20.:28:25.

that is James Bond or Le Carre. Why did you choose to take on this

:28:26.:28:29.

subject at this moment in time? Because everything changed for them

:28:30.:28:33.

in 2001, they weren't ready for it. At the end of the last century they

:28:34.:28:38.

thought that they were facing decline. I knew some people inside

:28:39.:28:42.

the building and they were really worried that it was going to be a

:28:43.:28:46.

very bad time for spies, with Northern Ireland settled the Cold

:28:47.:28:49.

War over it appeared to be a low movement in spies' fortunes. They

:28:50.:28:54.

didn't see the direction that trouble was coming from, they

:28:55.:28:57.

weren't ready for t and they weren't ready for some of the moral problems

:28:58.:29:01.

raised in the last ten years. So a boom time for the Security Services

:29:02.:29:06.

has given you new fodder? I think it is that John Le Carre is somebody we

:29:07.:29:12.

all admire as a great writer in the field. But he had the Cold War, or

:29:13.:29:16.

he wrote brilliantly about the cold war, but nobody has been writing

:29:17.:29:18.

about the particular issues that have come up since the invasion of

:29:19.:29:27.

Iraq and 9/11. Those are about the means by which intelligence is

:29:28.:29:30.

gathered. And the scruples or lack of them that exist inside MI5, I

:29:31.:29:37.

know less about 5. MI 6, but the scruples that exist within the

:29:38.:29:40.

intelligence community and the argument that is go on inside the

:29:41.:29:43.

community about how they should be behaving. What were the arguments?

:29:44.:29:47.

There is people inside MI5 that believe the ends justify the means

:29:48.:29:51.

and there are those who don't. There is absolutely no doubt we have been

:29:52.:29:56.

complicit in illegal ways of torturing people to gather

:29:57.:29:59.

information. We know we have. You know, they look at information and

:30:00.:30:02.

they say, well this is strangely good, how on earth can it be so

:30:03.:30:07.

good. They claim not to then take the next step where they say how can

:30:08.:30:11.

this intelligence be so good. Some people favour these methods, and

:30:12.:30:14.

politicians, unfortunately are forced to lie about it. But the

:30:15.:30:18.

Government denies that, it is quite an accusation to say politicians lie

:30:19.:30:22.

about this all the time. Are you saying people inside the Security

:30:23.:30:25.

Services have been open with you about that? It is quite an

:30:26.:30:30.

allegation? Oh yeah. Categorically? Yes, of course. And why then do you

:30:31.:30:37.

think that in the same era where we have Edward Snowden, we have Bradley

:30:38.:30:44.

Manning, and wicky ks putting huge amounts of information about the

:30:45.:30:47.

services out into the public domain, why do we need to have writing about

:30:48.:30:52.

it, given that information bursts out from everywhere? I'm writing

:30:53.:30:57.

because it is entertaining, I'm writing about a jolly Warwick,

:30:58.:31:02.

imagined character within MI5, it is not documentary what I write, it is

:31:03.:31:05.

fiction. But it is fiction that is based on what is closely going on.

:31:06.:31:10.

And I hope these films are extremely entertaining. That is what they are

:31:11.:31:12.

meant to be. You have never shied away from taking on political

:31:13.:31:16.

subjects and famously you stopped voting Labour because of the Iraq

:31:17.:31:19.

wax and then I understand voted Liberal Democrat in 2010. Bringing

:31:20.:31:29.

out All myment painful secrets. I thought the ballot box was private.

:31:30.:31:36.

What do you make of the Government now, despite the comments about the

:31:37.:31:41.

Security Services. What do you make of the coalition for the Liberal

:31:42.:31:54.

Democrats you voted for. I think foreign policy has been donated to

:31:55.:31:58.

Washington, they are giving away their power all the time. The things

:31:59.:32:03.

the state used to own they give away. They have recently given away

:32:04.:32:07.

the Royal Mail. Politicians seem more and more diminished and seem to

:32:08.:32:11.

be happy to be. In other words to delegate authority now seems to be

:32:12.:32:14.

what politicians want to do because they are frightened of taking

:32:15.:32:17.

responsibility for things. You are sounding a bit like Tony Benn? I

:32:18.:32:22.

think that the interesting thing about what's been said today about

:32:23.:32:26.

Tony Benn is that everybody's been saying he was very eloquent and he's

:32:27.:32:30.

a great speaker and wonderful orator, but oratory is about

:32:31.:32:35.

content. The reason he was interesting is because he had

:32:36.:32:41.

interesting ideas. Eloquence doesn't arrive on top of ideas, it is the

:32:42.:32:45.

expression of ideas. The reason the current leaders are boring and

:32:46.:32:48.

effectively that is what your speaker has just said, there is

:32:49.:32:53.

nobody who speaks interestingly any more, that is because they don't

:32:54.:32:56.

have interesting ideas, not because they are not great rhetorician.

:32:57.:33:07.

Isn't it easy to say these things from a North London intellectual

:33:08.:33:12.

life? I used to feel the opposite. I wrote about Neil Kinnock and the

:33:13.:33:17.

1991 election. I was convinced on both sides, John Major a man I

:33:18.:33:20.

admired very much, and Neil Kinnock whom I also admired. I was convinced

:33:21.:33:24.

that politicians were working for the public good. I think it is very

:33:25.:33:28.

hard after the Iraq War and the ex-PEPses scandal to believe that

:33:29.:33:31.

they are any more. It has to be two way. They can't ask us to respect

:33:32.:33:37.

them unless they respect us. That's why writing about MI5 is so

:33:38.:33:41.

interesting. Because you know if they are to respect us, they

:33:42.:33:45.

actually have to tell us something about what's going on. Just let me

:33:46.:33:52.

finish, that means not shutting down the Gibson Inquiry, and it means

:33:53.:34:00.

taking the Chalcot inquiry seriously. Thank you very much for

:34:01.:34:07.

coming in and speaking to us. The Warwick trilogy starts tomorrow on

:34:08.:34:11.

BBC Two. That is all from us tonight. We will leave you with one

:34:12.:34:15.

more reminder of the words of Tony Benn who died this morning, and the

:34:16.:34:19.

way he put the personal and political together to fight for his

:34:20.:34:22.

cause. As you will hear, never more so than during his battle against

:34:23.:34:29.

the war in Iraq. Good night. I was born a quarter of a mile from where

:34:30.:34:33.

we are sitting now, I was here in London during the blitz, every night

:34:34.:34:38.

I went down to the shelter, 500 people killed, my brother was killed

:34:39.:34:42.

and my friends were killed. When the charter of the UN was read to me,

:34:43.:34:47.

"we the peoples of the United Nations determine to save succeeding

:34:48.:34:49.

generations from the scourge of war" that was the pledge my generation

:34:50.:34:53.

gave to the younger generation and you tore it up, it is a war crime

:34:54.:34:58.

that has been committed in Iraq. There is no moral difference.

:34:59.:35:03.

LINEBREAK APPLAUSE Between a stealth and suicide

:35:04.:35:07.

bomber, both kill people for political reasons.

:35:08.:35:26.

The weekend is upon us, for many of us not looking too bad. Some rain

:35:27.:35:31.

around, notably across the

:35:32.:35:32.