17/03/2014 Newsnight


17/03/2014

News stories with Jeremy Paxman. Including gravity waves seen for the first time, childcare tax breaks, Crimea, and Noel Edmonds wants to buy the BBC.


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Transcript


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They are hailing it as the most important cosmic discovery in a

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generation. It doesn't the big bang, that happened years ago, but it

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shows what happened to make our universe. Gravity waves were

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predicted by Einstein, it has taken a century to find them. Now that we

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have, what have we proved? We will ask two happy scientists, and from

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Boston, we talk to the man from the team who made the discovery. Flight

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MH370, was it hijacked? Where is it? How can we have not the faintest

:00:45.:00:49.

idea a week after the event? Emily has hints about the budget. They are

:00:50.:00:53.

looking for help for all those hard working families. Will ?2,000

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tax-free childcare do it? It has come to this, Noel Edmonds thinks

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the license fee is dead and the BBC should effectively be privatised.

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He's here to lay out his manifesto. As regular viewers will be more than

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aware Newsnight isn't ashamed to reguerring Tate or more commonly

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revisit ancient news, if it is news it is news to us. Tonight we surpass

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ourselves with analysis of events at the very dawn of time, before even

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the An teaks road show had been invented. American scientists

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believed they discovered something that happened a fraction of a second

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after the big bang, some several billion years ago. In the world of

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cosmology, it is a very big deal indeed. Chris Lintot of the Sky At

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Night fame reports for Newsnight. The universe began 13. Eight billion

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years ago in a big bang, and scientists' imaginations can take us

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almost to that point. Until now proving it has been impossible. In

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an unspectacular setting remarkable news n a day that these scientists

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thought would never come. A chance to test out theories in extreme

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conditions. I'm at the Royal Observatory Greenwich, the

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historical home of British astronomy and place renowned for time keeping.

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Even the astronomers here would be impressed if I told them we had

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evidence something happened a ten million, billion, billionth of a

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second after the big bang. Today's discovery comes from a radio

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telescope at the South Pole, known as BicepII. It is great place to do

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astronomy, it is desert dry, which allows it to see the oldest light in

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the universe, the cosmic microwave background. This is this cosmic

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microwave background. A picture of the universe as it was 400,000 years

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after the big bang. You can see it is lumpy, there are dark bits cooler

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than the average, and bright bits hotter than the average. And all of

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that structure goes on to form the galaxies that we see around us

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today. To begin with the universe was filled with a soup of particle,

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mainly electron, and light scattered from one electron to another, but as

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the universe expanded the electrons lost energy, and they are suddenly

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captured by atomic nuclei. They scatter across the universe reaching

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us on earth 13. 8 billion years later. That light contains the

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distinctive imprint of a violent time in the universe's history, just

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after the big bang, it seems the universe expanded almost

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instantaneously, in a cosmic inflation. Space itself would ha

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rippled, sending gravitational waves spreading out across the universe.

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It is the affect of those waves that Bicep has seen today. Inflation is

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an idea which has really solves a lot of problems. But finding

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evidence for it is hard. And this is really the first, not direct

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evidence, but it is indirect evidence which looks on the face of

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it quite powerful. Inflation changed our universe forever, it created the

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seeds from which the galaxies we see around us formed, it guaranteed that

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the part of the universe we can see is only a tiny, and some would say,

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insignificant part of all there is. What What we have seen today might

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well be the first signal of an event that happened a tiny fraction of a

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second after the big bang, but shaped the universe around us. If

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this result stands up, it will be a red letter day in the history of if

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Is sicks and win many people many Nobel Prizes in the years to come.

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We have the co-leader of the Bicep operation, and we have our guests in

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the studio. SMI First to Boston, were you surprised by what you

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found? We were some what surprised. So previously indications were that

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the signal was smaller than what we found. That was surprising, from a

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theoretical perspective the signal is about the size it would be

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expected to be. Of course it is very surprising to go on a, on what some

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people might have characterised as a wild goose chase and find the goose.

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Yes, we were very surprised. It must be amazing, you are looking evidence

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of something that happened 14 billion years ago, what is that

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like? We have been studying the microwave background for many years,

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we have been looking back to the 400,000 year, that has been my

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career. Today's discovery is special, because it is looking at an

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imprint at that 400,000 year epoch, which comes from the first tiny,

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tiny fraction of a second after the beginning. We are essentially seeing

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gravitational waves from that first moment of creation, written on the

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sky at 400,000 years. Were you following a hunch here. Did you find

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that there was opposition to your pursuing this line of research? It

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must have been phenomenally expensive? Actually our experiment

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is not terribly expensive by the standards of modern physics

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research. We are talking maybe $10-$20 million. It is a small

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telescope and highly targeted experiment. We built it to look

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specifically for this observational signature and nothing else. That

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allowed it to be only modestly expensive. Did you find it difficult

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to get backing? Well, you know, we are funded by the US National

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Science Foundation, they fund a number of telescopes, after the same

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goal as us. They differ in details but basically after the same goal.

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So that is the way that they have decided to go. You know funding a

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number of smaller experiments. The European Space Agency has right now

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the Plunk Space Mission, which is a very expensive mission, which is

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going after the same thing amongst other things. That is a more

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generalised experiment. We have a couple of your colleagues here in

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the studio in London, one is involved, you are both involved in

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the Plank Project. Just you, you are involved in it. Exciting day isn't

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it? It is an amazing day. This buzz has been building for a few days,

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all these rumours on the Internet, and people were discussing what

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could come. But I think the news that they got today exceeded

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certainly my expectations, the level of the significantle thats was very

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high. This was unexpected. The Plank had set a slightly lower limit, that

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is very interesting. The way the experiment actually worked and the

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level of the low noise they were able to achieve with the signal is

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an incredible achievementnt actually worked and the level of the low

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noise they were able to achieve with the signal is an incredible

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achievement. Is there anything you want to ask him to make sure he got

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it right? How long have you gathered this data for. I wasn't expecting

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that. Is it recent or is it quite a bit of data. Before people publish

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anything, you want to have robustness behind you. How much are

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you holding in reserve and how much data do you have? The data we

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announced today was taken between 2010-2012, the last of the data was

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taken more than a year ago. The reason it has taken a time to

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finalise the result and put it out is it was so unexpected, we needed

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to test everything and drill into and slice and dice the data to try

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to make sure we weren't making a mistake, that there wasn't

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contamination from the experiment or sources on the ground, or even from

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foreground mission on our own galaxy. We were pretty sure. We set

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everything out in the papers we submitted today, and people can

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judge for themselves. Supposing he's right, what's the significance?

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Let's assume he's right. I will be the last to know, and so will many

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other people, apart from some of our viewers, I suppose. Let's assume

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that it is all as it appears, this is a sense sayingal discovery, why

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does it matter? What we're looking at, there are two discoveries here,

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the first I'm talking about gravitational waves, the elusive

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gravitational waves. Einstein predicted them in 1916, and other

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things he predicted, gravitational lens, have been proved and verified.

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But gravitational waves was one of the elusive things we didn't have

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evidence to support. Just the fact we have got that is another tick in

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the box for that theory. This cosmic expansion has now been evidenced. We

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have known about the big bang for many, many years, when you think

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about the universe as the size of the marble, there are glitches with

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that, things that didn't stand up with the theory. People made

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suggestions in the 80s, they call up with -- came up with suggestions,

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they came up with cosmic expansion, so in a tiny amount of time there

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was massive expansion and you get the gravitational waves produced and

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we are looking at the remnants now. That expansion was the blueprint for

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the universe we live in today. So the terms and conditions at that

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point dictate the universe we live in today. There are some people

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talking about how this provides the hint to the theory of everything?

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That's right. Can you explain in layman's terms what that means? So

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this process of inflation that has been discussed here, tuly acted as

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the origin of all the stuff that we see in the universe today. All the

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galaxies, clusters of galaxies, planets, everything came from tiny

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ripples in space in the early times. This is a direct hint of that time

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and of that physics. So we have two theories, one is the Einstien's

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general relatively, the theory of gravity. There is another pillar of

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modern physics, quantum mechanics. These two theories by themselves are

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inconsistent. They have to be unified in a broader theory. A

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theory of quantum gravity. String theory is a candidate for that. If

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we have gravitational waves at the level they have detected today, it

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makes the physics really, really early and sensitive to quantum

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gravity. I think this could be a tremendous leap in physics, not just

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cosmology, if it pans out it could point to a significant breakthrough

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in physics. Funny for of us in the taughtry tawedry business of news.

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This is what it is all about. Do you hope for a Nobel Prize for this? We

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have been deliberatelyRCEDYELLOW This is what it is all about. Do you

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hope for a Nobel Prize for this? We have been deliberately not talking

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about that, others have mentioned it! We are still no closer to the

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solution of the mystery of how an airliner with 239 human beings on

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board could suddenly vanish. The clues are minuscule or non-existent,

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the mallakes -- Malaysian Government are looking

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inept. We report from qualm had a loam per. -- Kuala Lumpur. One of

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the capital's largest mosques. There is a presidential call for the

:13:53.:14:03.

passengers who boarded the flight. In all the twists and turns of this

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incredible story, one fact hasn't changed. 239 people are still

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missing, seven of those children. These grainy CCTV pictures of the

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pilots passing through security are another reminder how routine this

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trip appeared to be. The possibility that a crew member was involved in

:14:25.:14:29.

the plane's disappearance is still a major and inevitable line of

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inquiry. It is in this wealthy gated suburb of Kuala Lumpur that the

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captain, Zaharie Ahmad Shah, lives, he has a wife and three children.

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Security is tight here, any photographers caught inside risk

:14:46.:14:48.

having their memory cards wiped and the police called. We now know that

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flight MH370 was deliberately steered off course, and put through

:14:55.:14:57.

a series of complex manoeuvres, perhaps designed to avoid military

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radar. It appears someone with advanced flying skills must have

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been responsible. The key question is who was at the controls at that

:15:06.:15:08.

time, and where were they acting alone or under duress. Over the

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weekend attention was on the 53-year-old chief pilot. Hi

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everyone, this is YouTube video... Zaharie Ahmad Shah had built his own

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high-tech Boeing 777 simulator. The police have seized the system and

:15:27.:15:30.

rebuilt it to test the routes he was flying. Their newspapers brought up

:15:31.:15:34.

his support for Malaysia's opposition party, headed by their

:15:35.:15:40.

imprisoned leader words like "fanatic" and "obsessed" were used.

:15:41.:15:44.

Today a senior politician confirmed to Newsnight he was personal friends

:15:45.:15:47.

to the pilot, but said any attempt to bring in domestic politics was

:15:48.:15:55.

part of a crude campaign for smear. What I know of him he's not anyone

:15:56.:15:58.

who would put his passengers or plane in danger. The Daily Mail also

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suggested that he was a vocal political activist or social

:16:05.:16:07.

activist and went on to describe him as a political fanatic. I think

:16:08.:16:14.

that's really completely wrong. From what I know of him, you can't

:16:15.:16:18.

describe him as that. He was a member, he was a quiet member. You

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know he was just an ordinary member of the party. He did some social

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work for underprivileged kids, and that's it. Today we also learned

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more about the movements of flight MH370, a modern Boeing 777. It took

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off bound for Beijing in the early hours of March 8th. As it left the

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country it passed an automated message giving details of its

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position to a system known as ACARSs, times in the minutes after

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that, it is not clear when, that system was switched off. By 1. 19am,

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someone in the cockpit calmly spoke to staff saying "all right, good

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night". We heard those words crucially came from the second pilot

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not the captain. Two minutes after the good night message the plane's

:17:11.:17:15.

transponder was switched off, hiding its position from air traffic

:17:16.:17:22.

control. And Mr Hamid's family home this afternoon, there was no-one in,

:17:23.:17:25.

a strong padlock on the door and police circulating outside. We still

:17:26.:17:29.

don't know if he was involved in the plane's disappearance or possibly

:17:30.:17:33.

acting under duress. But today's news means once again officials are

:17:34.:17:38.

appearing to backtrack on earlier statements adding to the confusion

:17:39.:17:44.

around this crisis. By 2. 15am on March 8th military radar have picked

:17:45.:17:48.

up the plane hundreds of miles west, well off course. It then appeared to

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vanish. But MH370 was still sending a crude signal to a satellite high

:17:56.:17:59.

above earth, own by a British company. That tells us that six

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hours later, with 30 minutes of fuel left in its tank it was somewhere on

:18:04.:18:08.

one of these two vast flight corridors, stretching from the

:18:09.:18:14.

southern Indian Ocean to Kazakhstan in Asia. At a packed news

:18:15.:18:18.

conference, Malaysia's Transport Minister said he had now asked 26

:18:19.:18:23.

countries to join in the search and rescue effort, based on new data,

:18:24.:18:27.

that search started today. The fact that there are no distress signals

:18:28.:18:32.

or Rand some notes, there are no parties claiming to be responsible,

:18:33.:18:40.

there is always hope. Hope or no hope, for friends and family of the

:18:41.:18:44.

missing the waiting as soon as. At the airport where their loved ones

:18:45.:18:48.

set off ten days a the temporary shrine to those on boardpe, for

:18:49.:19:00.

friends and family of the missing the waiting as soon as. At the

:19:01.:19:02.

airport where their loved ones set off ten days a the temporary shrine

:19:03.:19:05.

to those on board. The "hard working families" phrase has been pretty

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much part of every speech the Chancellor has made over the past

:19:08.:19:10.

few weeks. Tonight the first signs of what this might mean in practice

:19:11.:19:12.

for Wednesday's budget. He is to unveil a package which includes

:19:13.:19:16.

tax-free childcare for children up to 12, as well as more money for

:19:17.:19:21.

nurseries and families on benefits. What have you heard? This is, we

:19:22.:19:25.

think, a pretty big childcare announcement that should help most

:19:26.:19:29.

families with children under 12. The Government is you evering to put --

:19:30.:19:35.

offering to put up to ?2,000 per child per year for tax relief, that

:19:36.:19:40.

would affect every family where each working parent earns below ?150,000.

:19:41.:19:44.

That is a pretty high threshold. The Tory side to this is a nod towards

:19:45.:19:52.

universalism, perhaps to appease those affected by child benefit. It

:19:53.:19:56.

will be for nurseries and disadvantaged children. This is

:19:57.:19:59.

something the Liberal Democrats would want to see included. They do

:20:00.:20:04.

this before every budget selectively releasing things they think will

:20:05.:20:17.

make them look good. What is new ind want to see included. They do this

:20:18.:20:19.

before every budget selectively releasing things they think will

:20:20.:20:22.

make them look good. What is new in it? It is being rolled out and a lot

:20:23.:20:25.

of it not until 2017. The overall structure we have heard before. It

:20:26.:20:28.

is much more money, it is ?2,000, more people will find themselves

:20:29.:20:29.

eligible, including those self-employed, and it moves the

:20:30.:20:33.

Tories crucially for them on to this cost of living territory and it

:20:34.:20:37.

responds to those previous cuts in child benefit. What is the

:20:38.:20:41.

anticipated response? Well, the Liberal Democrats are saying this is

:20:42.:20:45.

a perfect example of the coalition working side-by-side. They each give

:20:46.:20:50.

the other side credit. Labour has already come forward and said that

:20:51.:20:54.

this is only help after the next election, so it is too little too

:20:55.:20:57.

late. They say David Cameron has already shown has true colours by

:20:58.:21:03.

cutting support for children and families by ?15 billion since he

:21:04.:21:06.

came to office. Crucially though it will be quite controversial for stay

:21:07.:21:10.

at home mums, that rather terrible phrase, but this doesn't come into

:21:11.:21:16.

play if one side of the family, one parent works from home, doesn't go

:21:17.:21:21.

out to work or only helps lone working parents. It won't help them.

:21:22.:21:24.

The Conservatives of course would say they are covered in the married

:21:25.:21:28.

tax allowance, which comes into play in April of 2015. The good news over

:21:29.:21:38.

the confrontation about Crimea is hasn't become a military clash

:21:39.:21:41.

between east and west. That is as far as it goes. The European Union

:21:42.:21:44.

and the United States have imposed sanctions, travel bans and asset

:21:45.:21:49.

freezes on both Russians and Ukrainians sympathetic to the

:21:50.:21:52.

Russian intervention. The Russians say the sanctions reflect an

:21:53.:21:56.

inability to see reality as expressed in the referendum they

:21:57.:22:00.

organised. President Putin has signed a degree recognising Crimea

:22:01.:22:05.

as an independent and sovereign state. We're in the capital of

:22:06.:22:15.

Crimea. Tell me about these sanctions? The EU have put them in

:22:16.:22:21.

place on several individuals, mostly officials here in this newly

:22:22.:22:26.

independent Republic of Crimea. The ones from the United States, more

:22:27.:22:30.

interesting perhaps, seven people close to President Putin. His inner

:22:31.:22:35.

circle, if you like, of advisers on foreign policy and legal aspects of

:22:36.:22:38.

what has been done. And while I think it is fair to say that the

:22:39.:22:43.

European ones aren't going to cause too many sleepless nights here and

:22:44.:22:47.

many of these local officials don't have much money, the asset seizures

:22:48.:22:52.

and other measures are definitely sending a signal from the US to

:22:53.:22:59.

President Putin. Won't Putin though have seen these coming rather? I

:23:00.:23:07.

think he has. If you look at this, each side seems to have thought a

:23:08.:23:10.

couple of steps ahead. We have had the threats for example of military

:23:11.:23:13.

intervention in eastern Ukraine. I don't think he wants to do that at

:23:14.:23:18.

the moment. And it seems to have been designed to make people accept

:23:19.:23:22.

the loss of Crimea, if you like, as the lesser problem. He's also talked

:23:23.:23:28.

about, hinted that he realised Russia may be forced out of the G8

:23:29.:23:33.

organisation. He's definitely done that. Interestingly hints from

:23:34.:23:36.

President Obama that he too has done that, talking about further steps in

:23:37.:23:41.

prospect, the Americans ultimately if this got worse and worse could go

:23:42.:23:47.

to Iran-style sanctions. But at the moment nobody here in Crimea is

:23:48.:23:54.

losing sleep about that, they are ebb bullent, they feel they are

:23:55.:24:06.

winning. NSMIT Here they believe might is right. Security was stepped

:24:07.:24:11.

up and a message sent to foreigners who said their referendum was

:24:12.:24:16.

illegal. Inside the thumping majority for union with Russia

:24:17.:24:21.

brought the deputies to rapture. Then they voted through a series of

:24:22.:24:29.

dramatic laws to adopt the rouble, even to switch to Russian time zone,

:24:30.:24:34.

and of course for union with Russia. They did no more than answer the

:24:35.:24:41.

call of so many Crimeans to escape the ineptitude of Ukrainian rule and

:24:42.:24:46.

enter the powerful embrace of Mother Russia. TRANSLATION: The Ukraine

:24:47.:24:52.

will not be able to unite us and so give us a better life. Russia is a

:24:53.:25:00.

stronger country, I'm Russian myself, I'm from St Petersburg, and

:25:01.:25:06.

I know that life will be better now. But it was done so crudely, a false

:25:07.:25:11.

choice of ballot that made what would naturally have been a majority

:25:12.:25:16.

for Russia into something spurn bid the wider world and creating so many

:25:17.:25:24.

new problems. Another law voted through this morning called for the

:25:25.:25:30.

disbandment of all the blockaded Ukrainian army units in Crimea. This

:25:31.:25:35.

is the airfield where early on Russian troops seized it and fired

:25:36.:25:40.

over the heads of Ukrainians who tried to take their base back. But

:25:41.:25:45.

we found signs that the spirit of resistance has flagged and that each

:25:46.:25:57.

man must take his own decisions. Like this officer who wanted his

:25:58.:26:02.

identity concealed. All my colleagues will decide which side we

:26:03.:26:07.

want to serve. Do you think perhaps the politicians in Kiev have given

:26:08.:26:14.

up that they don't think it is possible to hold the bases? For them

:26:15.:26:18.

it would be hard to leave us here in Crimea, it would be very hard to

:26:19.:26:23.

leave us on this base. What sort of decision do you think you will make?

:26:24.:26:27.

I will serve the Ukrainian nation and people. You will have to leave?

:26:28.:26:34.

Yes. I have to leave my own city, my natural city, I was porn born here.

:26:35.:26:43.

Unfortunately I have to do this. Here too is evidence of a deal to

:26:44.:26:48.

keep tensions under control. The Russians have pulled back on to the

:26:49.:26:52.

ridge out of view, while the personnel make up their minds to

:26:53.:27:02.

stay or go. ATR, an independent TV channel today relayed parliament's

:27:03.:27:07.

latest decisions. The station's owned by Crimean Tatas, many of whom

:27:08.:27:13.

refused to vote yesterday, and who feel they too will lose from this

:27:14.:27:18.

rapid move towards Russia. TRANSLATION: This is really an

:27:19.:27:22.

anxious time for us, we have been through a lot of difficulties. So it

:27:23.:27:25.

isn't easy to say whether things are going to get better now. But the

:27:26.:27:31.

thing is, we are worried, and judging by Russian policy today, our

:27:32.:27:42.

worst fears may come through. For Crimean Tatas, a memory of this man,

:27:43.:27:48.

who deported their entire people after the war haunts them. And

:27:49.:27:52.

Stalin's grand design has its timely reminder for Europe too. For it was

:27:53.:27:58.

here in 1945 at the Crimean resort that there was an earlier

:27:59.:28:03.

acquiscence to Moscow that had far-reaching consequences. Britain

:28:04.:28:07.

and America went along here with the idea that each great power should

:28:08.:28:11.

have its sphere of influence. And many people saw that as consigning

:28:12.:28:16.

millions in Eastern Europe to the mercy of the Kremlin. And that's why

:28:17.:28:23.

Yalta has some concomfortable resonances today. It is this concept

:28:24.:28:28.

that Russia can pretty much do what it wants in its own back yard. But

:28:29.:28:33.

history has a more positive meaning for Russians, so much so it is used

:28:34.:28:39.

and abused in today's messages to the Crimean people. Can it inform

:28:40.:28:46.

the future and carry them through the crisis, we asked some students?

:28:47.:28:52.

I love the Ukrainian language, the Ukrainian poets and music. But I

:28:53.:28:55.

don't like the Government at the moment. I don't like what they do. I

:28:56.:28:59.

think this is really pretty good idea to go, it is joining Russia at

:29:00.:29:02.

the moment. Most of may've friends are not happy at all, Crimea must be

:29:03.:29:21.

with the People divide on whether Russia has flouted its power here.

:29:22.:29:26.

But in the actions of the past day the Kremlin has shown it will

:29:27.:29:30.

weather the storm and drive over the opposition to the annexation of

:29:31.:29:36.

Crimea. The organisation which is supposed to keep an eye on the

:29:37.:29:39.

police has looked at itself and found itself rather wanting. In

:29:40.:29:42.

particular it notices that the families of people who have died

:29:43.:29:47.

while in police custody consider it hard hearted and lacking in

:29:48.:29:54.

compassion. The Independent Police Complaints Commisssion, acknowledges

:29:55.:29:56.

a raft of faults but doesn't call for itself to be abolished. Others

:29:57.:30:00.

are saying that is absolutely what ought to happen. The strongest

:30:01.:30:05.

criticism in today's report is how the IPCC engage with bereaved

:30:06.:30:10.

families in its investigations. Families complained that

:30:11.:30:14.

communication lacked empathy, sensitively and compassion, some

:30:15.:30:18.

felt they and those who had died were wrongly characterised or

:30:19.:30:23.

unfairly judged. There were also questions about how independent the

:30:24.:30:30.

IPCC actually is? The family of Sean Rigg have been the most vocal in

:30:31.:30:35.

their criticism. In 2008 Sean Rigg died after a cardiac arrest while

:30:36.:30:39.

being held at Brixton Police Station. Unusually the IPCC had to

:30:40.:30:44.

set up a review into its own investigation after an inquest into

:30:45.:30:49.

Mr Rigg's death found that police officers had used unsuitable force.

:30:50.:30:56.

Something the first report failed to recognise. There is no trust in the

:30:57.:31:00.

police. At all within the community and particularly within the black

:31:01.:31:04.

community. Because they are corrupt, they are racist and they don't care.

:31:05.:31:10.

They are killing us. They are killing us. This self-scrutiny by

:31:11.:31:17.

the IPCC follows criticism of the police itself over the undercover

:31:18.:31:22.

infiltration of political groups. The same force is still recovering

:31:23.:31:26.

from the damage to its reputation caused by the plebgate scandal. The

:31:27.:31:32.

IPCC itself had to apologise to the family of Mark Duggan, whose death

:31:33.:31:37.

in 2011 led to riots in London and other cities. The IPCC had wrongly

:31:38.:31:43.

told the media that he had fired at police before he was shot. Earlier

:31:44.:31:48.

this month the shadow Home Secretary Yvette Cooper called for the body to

:31:49.:31:52.

be abolished saying the system wasn't working and the IPCC has

:31:53.:31:57.

failed or proved irrelevant too many times, and lacks the powers and

:31:58.:32:03.

authorities it needs. We have the chair of the Independent

:32:04.:32:08.

Police Complaints Commisssion, the IPCC and she is here. We will come

:32:09.:32:13.

to Yvette Cooper's point in a moment. You took over in 2012. Were

:32:14.:32:17.

you surprised at how bad the situation was that you found there?

:32:18.:32:22.

No I wasn't actually. I was immediately struck by how

:32:23.:32:25.

demoralised people were. People felt battered by criticism and often when

:32:26.:32:30.

people feel battered by criticism they retreat into being quite

:32:31.:32:35.

defensive. But you can't deny the things the IPCC has achieved and

:32:36.:32:39.

will continue to achieve. We don't always get it right. By no means do

:32:40.:32:44.

we get it wrong. There have been some pretty aggrieguos error,

:32:45.:32:55.

particularly that Mark Duggan had fired at the police when he hadn't?

:32:56.:33:04.

How does It happens, it was not in the news release and it led to

:33:05.:33:08.

changes. You did ask around how it happened? It was a comment who

:33:09.:33:11.

thought that was what happened when asked by a journalist. But it wasn't

:33:12.:33:15.

in the official press release. It was completely wrong. It wasn't

:33:16.:33:19.

right, absolutely. It is a classic example of when these things happen,

:33:20.:33:23.

these crises, of only saying those things that you absolutely know to

:33:24.:33:26.

be the case. It couldn't happen again. I would hope it wouldn't. We

:33:27.:33:33.

have made huge steps to make sure it wouldn't happen again. You look at

:33:34.:33:36.

this report it is pretty scathing, it talks about a lack of

:33:37.:33:40.

thoroughness, a lack of robust analysis of evidence, a lack of

:33:41.:33:47.

sufficient challenge to police accounts. These are serious points?

:33:48.:33:52.

This is our review of ourselves. You are looking yourself in the face and

:33:53.:33:56.

not liking what you see? We are acknowledging the times we haven't

:33:57.:33:58.

got it right. That doesn't mean that is always the case. For example

:33:59.:34:05.

there are 20 metropolitan police officers dismissed as a result of

:34:06.:34:08.

IPCC investigations. There are fewer than half the deaths in custody. We

:34:09.:34:13.

need to look at when we don't get it right, why is that? We have

:34:14.:34:16.

identified some of the areas we need to look at. You do accept there is a

:34:17.:34:19.

perception among some people that the job of your organisation is to

:34:20.:34:25.

explain away the behaviour of the police rather than to investigate

:34:26.:34:30.

it? I don't think that is true. Of course you would say that? That's

:34:31.:34:34.

not the kind of organisation I would lead or want to lead. That is not

:34:35.:34:39.

where I'm coming from. I think sometimes we haven't been

:34:40.:34:41.

sufficiently probing, that is absolutely right. I think sometimes

:34:42.:34:45.

the first account and the most coherent account you get is the

:34:46.:34:47.

account from the police. That doesn't make it wrong but it doesn't

:34:48.:34:50.

make it right. Investigating the police is a really hard job. And

:34:51.:34:56.

mainly carried out by ex-policemen? Not mainly at all. Around a quarter

:34:57.:35:02.

of our investigators are ex-police officers, and about 40% all together

:35:03.:35:08.

have worked for the police. But we have independent commissioners who

:35:09.:35:10.

have never worked for the police sitting on top of every

:35:11.:35:12.

investigation. We have strengthened their role. We are building a

:35:13.:35:16.

culture of challenge and a culture where we can challenge each other

:35:17.:35:20.

internally to challenge others and challenge externally. How much do

:35:21.:35:24.

you cost a year? At the moment our core putting is about ?32 million

:35:25.:35:29.

and money for Hillsborough. How much is that spent investigating? A lot

:35:30.:35:32.

of it is spent investigating and dealing with appeals against the

:35:33.:35:36.

police. We deal with 6,000 appeals every year against police

:35:37.:35:40.

investigations, we uphold the appellant half the times. In 47% of

:35:41.:35:45.

cases the police have got it wrong in investigations and we tell them

:35:46.:35:49.

so. It is the case, isn't it, that the majority of cases that are

:35:50.:35:55.

recommended to you can't investigate? We haven't got the

:35:56.:35:59.

resources to do it, no. We will be giving more resources. It is an

:36:00.:36:03.

enormous chasam too isn't it? It is something that really troubles us,

:36:04.:36:07.

every week we get 70 cases referred by the police. We can't deal with as

:36:08.:36:13.

many as we want to. How many of that 70 do you reckon you can deal with?

:36:14.:36:17.

Perhaps one or two, we are dealing with 130 all together. That is all

:36:18.:36:21.

we can do. But we are getting more resources to do more. Would you not

:36:22.:36:26.

conclude that from that Yvette Cooper is probably righ that it is

:36:27.:36:30.

about time you were wound up and replaced with something a bit more

:36:31.:36:33.

efficient? It is not efficiency it is time we were given more resources

:36:34.:36:37.

to do the job the public want us to. If you get 2,000 cases referred to

:36:38.:36:41.

you a year and you can investigate a few hundred. It may be a case of

:36:42.:36:46.

efficiency or lack of eCirbedcy? We are also doing 6 thousand appeals

:36:47.:36:50.

every year from investigations -- 6,000 appeals every year where the

:36:51.:36:54.

local police have got it wrong. We don't just do investigations we do

:36:55.:36:59.

the appeals also. We were never sufficiently resourced and now we

:37:00.:37:02.

are getting them. When do you reckon you will be able to do 100% of the

:37:03.:37:07.

cases you are asked to do? I would hope as more resources come in the

:37:08.:37:11.

next three years we will be able to do the serious and sensitive cases

:37:12.:37:16.

the public expects an independent body to look at. That will take

:37:17.:37:19.

three years to get to what you think you would like to get to let alone

:37:20.:37:24.

100%? It will take more resource and more resource means you have to

:37:25.:37:29.

recruit more staff. Even when I get more money I can't send pound notes

:37:30.:37:34.

to interview, we have to employ the right staff in the right place. No

:37:35.:37:38.

business in the world will say it can expand massively within a year.

:37:39.:37:41.

You have to do it properly and you have to get the right people in the

:37:42.:37:46.

right place. I do not want to be doing investigations to the poor

:37:47.:37:50.

quality that the police are doing many investigations just now I want

:37:51.:37:52.

to be able to do them properly and well. Otherwise we will get exactly

:37:53.:37:57.

the same kind of reports that we are having. How many poor-quality

:37:58.:38:01.

investigations by the police do you come across then? As I say 47% of

:38:02.:38:05.

those cases appealed to us, we uphold the appeal on the ground the

:38:06.:38:10.

police haven't done it well enough. How was it then that things got so

:38:11.:38:15.

bad in the police, and so demoralised in your organisation

:38:16.:38:21.

that we got to this mess? I think again when the IPCC was set up, it

:38:22.:38:25.

was doing something that had never been done before, independently

:38:26.:38:27.

investigating the police. Nobody had tried doing that before. It faced

:38:28.:38:32.

considerable resistance from the police, and from the beginning it

:38:33.:38:36.

was underresourced for the job it the public expected. That is a

:38:37.:38:39.

triple whammy. In the face of that to have done what the IPCC has done.

:38:40.:38:44.

To have a lot of people not walking the streets of police uniform

:38:45.:38:46.

because of investigations, to have the number of deaths in custody more

:38:47.:38:51.

than halved. To have considerable changes in police practice. Those

:38:52.:38:55.

are real results. But we have to get it right consistently and across the

:38:56.:39:00.

board. This is the last gasp, if you don't get it right now you will be

:39:01.:39:04.

wound up? Absolutely, we have a huge challenge and opportunity. More

:39:05.:39:07.

resores but more expected. I know that and all our staff know that.

:39:08.:39:11.

When we ask our staff, what do you want to do, what gets them out of

:39:12.:39:15.

bed in the morning, they say trust today hold the police to accountice

:39:16.:39:27.

to account. That is an organisation worth working for. At last someone

:39:28.:39:32.

has come up with a scheme to save the BBC, an organisation everyone

:39:33.:39:35.

says they love in principle, but which fewer and fewer of us seem

:39:36.:39:43.

keen to put into practice. Comeeth the hour cometh the man. Noel

:39:44.:39:48.

Edmonds has talked about buying it with investors. He has denied that

:39:49.:39:54.

Keith keg win will become controller of BBC Four and says he's entirely

:39:55.:40:00.

serious. What do you reckon is the notional value of the BBC if it can

:40:01.:40:14.

be boughtC Four and says he's entirely serious. What do you reckon

:40:15.:40:16.

is the notional value of the BBC if it can be bought? I have no idea,

:40:17.:40:19.

because the components are changing every week. I have no idea and we

:40:20.:40:22.

have run models on what the BBC would be worth today and at the end

:40:23.:40:25.

of the next round of cuts and what it could be worth on the open

:40:26.:40:28.

market. And those figures are roughly what? I'm not going to say

:40:29.:40:32.

at this particular time, for obvious business reasons. So you have got,

:40:33.:40:36.

when you say "we", you have got a consortium of people together have

:40:37.:40:44.

you? Yes. Project Rieth, predates everything that has recently

:40:45.:40:48.

happened for the BBC, by that I mean the Jimmy Savile scandal, and the

:40:49.:40:56.

George Enthwhistle in for 60 days. The matter of executive pay and what

:40:57.:41:02.

people were entitled to. Attacks by eminent broadcasters on the BBC. And

:41:03.:41:06.

of course the announcement that BBC will be cut. The project actually

:41:07.:41:12.

started about 18 months ago. Who are these people? Like-minded people,

:41:13.:41:16.

people who don't want to see Britain lose the BBC and that is how serious

:41:17.:41:22.

it is. Who are they? Like-minded people, what, with the greatest of

:41:23.:41:29.

respect, lots of blokes with beards presenting afternoon television

:41:30.:41:34.

series, what is the like-minded people? I won't talk about the

:41:35.:41:38.

components of this project in that kind of detail. There will be the

:41:39.:41:42.

right time to do that. We believe that the BBC is sleepwalking its way

:41:43.:41:48.

to destruction, and the BBC will be lost to Britain. We do not think

:41:49.:41:53.

that is right. Mr Blobby is the man to save it? Well, Jeremy, I like the

:41:54.:41:58.

little extras that you are throwing into this but the situation is very,

:41:59.:42:04.

very serious. You yourself has said, John Humphreys has said in the last

:42:05.:42:09.

48 hours. This is a really serious situation, where the BBC because of

:42:10.:42:12.

its triple problems and the way it is funded, historic baggage and the

:42:13.:42:17.

way in which it is used as a political football. Its future, its

:42:18.:42:21.

very future is in doubt. What would it be like under your consortium,

:42:22.:42:26.

what would the BBC do that it doesn't do now or not do that it

:42:27.:42:32.

does do now? I doubt it you have the time for me to go into the kind of

:42:33.:42:36.

detail that clearly you want. But you have got to look at where the

:42:37.:42:41.

BBC is currently going to try to imagine how you would make it fit

:42:42.:42:45.

for purpose. It is not fit for purpose in the Apple age and

:42:46.:42:49.

Microsoft. The age very large businesses that would love to pick

:42:50.:42:54.

over the carcass of the BBC. As quite clearly the BBC is recognising

:42:55.:43:02.

it is the wrong shape. What would you cut? I'm not going to say what

:43:03.:43:06.

we will cut. Because we don't know what will be left. Is BBC Four going

:43:07.:43:11.

to go in a moment, will we lose the two children's channels. What I

:43:12.:43:16.

would say is because of the historic baggage, we have got a ridiculous

:43:17.:43:20.

situation where the license fee now covers the World Service. Most

:43:21.:43:23.

people in Britain don't know how to get the World Service. There are

:43:24.:43:28.

50,000 people speaking gaelic, Welsh language has been declining over ten

:43:29.:43:33.

years and the BBC spends ?48 million on that. Clearly you have to look at

:43:34.:43:37.

making the BBC relevant to the Internet age. Bad news for the

:43:38.:43:47.

Welsh. What about orchestras? That is not true, because they would

:43:48.:43:50.

still have Welsh services as Scotland would. It is the extra

:43:51.:43:54.

things that most people these days can get on-line. And the BBC,

:43:55.:43:59.

frankly, if it owned up to it, is lumbered with it. They don't want to

:44:00.:44:03.

be paying for the World Service, I have massive love and respect for

:44:04.:44:07.

the BBC, but the problem is it doesn't have enough control over its

:44:08.:44:13.

over future. It is a patient that is terminally ill and it needs another

:44:14.:44:18.

force from outside to cure it and make it fit for a world that we

:44:19.:44:23.

couldn't have envisaged ten years ago. Ten years ago we haven't have

:44:24.:44:30.

YouTube or Netflix, we didn't have iPads or these kinds of things. The

:44:31.:44:35.

way to get the BBC in ten years' time if it was, and it does get an

:44:36.:44:39.

extension of the royal charter. We will be getting our entertainment,

:44:40.:44:43.

manufactures and education in a totally different way. The BBC has

:44:44.:44:48.

to be configured to do that. Clearly that has to happen. There has to be

:44:49.:44:53.

a huge change. But please don't be as secretive about this as you have

:44:54.:44:56.

been about investors and promming plans and the rest -- programme

:44:57.:45:00.

plans and the rest of it. Are you currently paying the TV license fee?

:45:01.:45:04.

I don't have a TV license. Is that because you don't have a television?

:45:05.:45:17.

I don't watch, except on catch-up. On't have a TV license. Is that

:45:18.:45:19.

because you don't have a television? I don't watch, except on catch-up.

:45:20.:45:22.

That's it for tonight, if you were hoping for the film on FGM it will

:45:23.:45:29.

be on later on in the week. Clarissa Dixon Wright died today,

:45:30.:45:34.

she was well known for the show Two Fat Ladies, but around our office

:45:35.:45:38.

she's most fondly recalled for keeping hungry hacks going through

:45:39.:45:42.

some long winter evenings a few years ago. Good night. Right you

:45:43.:46:10.

lot, here you are. You were

:46:11.:46:12.

Gravity waves seen for the first time. What does it prove? Childcare tax breaks. The plane. Crimea. IPCC chair v Paxman. Noel Edmunds wants to buy the BBC.


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