11/03/2014 Newsnight


11/03/2014

In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines with Jeremy Paxman. Includes the Crawley suicide bomber, the situation at the Co-op and Bob Crow.


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Transcript


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Ed Miliband will not be matching David Cameron's pledge of a

:00:00.:00:11.

referendum on Europe in 2017. Is there now a clear line between them?

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On one of the most contentious issues in contemporary politics.

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Labour say it would take a significant transfer of powers to

:00:25.:00:28.

offer an in-out referendum. Is this political bravery to stay away from

:00:29.:00:32.

the Tory line or will they pay for it at the European elections.

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How did a father from Crawley end up suicide bombing a Syrian jail? If my

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brother had been a British soldier, the British people, in that prison,

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and the act he did, the act of heroism or bravery he did, I know he

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would have been awarded the posthumous Victoria Cross. Requiem

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for a union boss outside a tube station, did we all secretly love

:01:04.:01:10.

Bob Crow. One of these two is less than entirely sure. Not even the

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greatest fans of the European Union claim that it's exactly popular at

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present. And this country's relationship with the EU is

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confidently expected to be a major battle ground in the next election.

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The Conservatives have already promised that they will try to

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renegotiate the relationship, and that the British people will be

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given the chance to vote in a referendum on whether to stay in or

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leave. Tomorrow Ed Miliband will announce that while Labour wants to

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stay in, there will be no more transfer of powers from London to

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Brussels, without a referendum. Similar words, very different

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meanings. Emily explains. The key thing is not what Ed Miliband is

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saying he will do, I guess what he's implicitly saying he won't do. We

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have learned tonight he won't be matching David Cameron's pledge, as

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you describe it, to hold a referendum on Europe in 2017. What

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Labour calls an arbitary timetable about an issue that doesn't really

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resonate with the voters. Neither will he give the Tories the

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satisfaction of ruling out a referendum all together. So tomorrow

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Ed Miliband will announce that they are legislating a new lock, forgive

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that it is Brussels speak, he is promising there will be no transfer

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of powers from the UK to the EU without a referendum, a clear

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referendum on our continued membership of the EU. Now he says

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this is not a scenario that he thinks is likely, it is not even a

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at all likely, but he says it is not impossible. Has anyone reacted yet?

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We have heard via Twitter from David Cameron, who has put only the

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Conservative Party can guarantee and deliver that in-out referendum. But

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perhaps what is fascinating about this story is the way the same line

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is running in diametrically opposite directions. You can either hear it

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as a pledge he will offer a referendum in that particular

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scenario, or he has ruled it out. Before I came on air I talked to

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Labour heavy-hitter, and they said the big deal is Ed Miliband has

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bitten the bullet and won't fall in behind the PM's referendum. David

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Cameron and George Osborne are desperate for Ed Miliband to fall in

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behind the issue and neutralise the issue and stop the damage done so it

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is two sides of the same coin. If they could have Ed Miliband on side

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and David Cameron could point and say what did he get out of the

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referendum commitment, nothing. It didn't stop UKIP, it didn't make

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Angela Merkel fall at his feet or silence his own backbench critics.

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Perhaps Ed Miliband is playing a shrewd game here. If Ed Miliband is

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right, then voters put Europe about 13th on the list of things that

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really matter to them. In other words, it shouldn't be something

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that any of the parties take that seriously. But if it wasn't that

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much of a worry, well perhaps we wouldn't be hearing quite so much

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about it. And certainly for all their talk of the significance of

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the cost of living crisis and jobs, tomorrow the Labour leader will

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tackle the Europe issue head on. With a concession that Europe, as

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they might say, isn't working. I know the reputation of the EU is

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with reason at a low-ebb he might say:

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SGLLT he will be writing in the FT newspaper and go on to say:

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Where do the stories stand? David Cameron made that clear a year ago?

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We will give the British people a referendum with a very simple in or

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out choice, to stay in the European Union on these new terms or to come

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out all together. It will be an in-out referendum. Of course there

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are plenty in his party that would wish him to go further and indeed

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quicker. But a private members' bill, representing the Cameron

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position was defeated by Labour and the Lib Dem peers in January. The

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Tories will attempt to bring back the legislation later this year.

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UKIP have one of the clearest positions on Europe, they just want

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to leave the EU all together. They question the number of jobs that

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come from the union, and indeed how dependant the British economy is on

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Europe. Last week one UKIP MEP admitted the transition couldn't and

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wouldn't happen in fewer than five years. Be more in, vote Lib Dem.

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Just this weekend Nick Clegg announced that the choice at the

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European elections would be between them and UKIP. He would take on what

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he called "backwards-looking politics", he said they would be the

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party of "in" and UKIP would be the party of "out". Everyone else he

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intimated was ssing around in the middle, threatening to pull up the

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draw bridge. John Man wrote to Ed Miliband asking him to pledge:

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Some's speech won't go anywhere near as far, but perhaps it may offer a

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small crumb or two or all those campaigning on the doorstep in the

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weeks and months to come. Did he have anything else to say? If you

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read the speech carefully, there are interesting concessions. He says in

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it Britain needs to work more effectively to change within the EU.

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He lists things that he's going to go out and seek change on. He says a

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longer time between new countries joining and their citizens being

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eligible for rights. He wants to make it easier to deport criminals

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from overseas, a longer wait before doling out Child Tax Credit when

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children live abroad. If you are listening to this, you are hearing

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the voice and echo of David Cameron. This is classic, isn't it, Tory

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territory that Ed Miliband is moving on to. The key difference being that

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Ed Miliband has committed himself to only offering this referendum if

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those powers are already being transferred. But this will also, I

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suggest, go some way towards reassuring the business community

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who has felt quite forgotten of late, quite isolated, all the talk

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of energy freezes, or banks being split up o the bankers' bonuses

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leaving businesses in a slightly shaky position. Does he offer any

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apology for giving away all those powers in the Lisbon Treaty? That

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wasn't him directly I guess, but maybe one for him next time he's

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here. To discuss Ed Miliband's proposal we have John Mann, who has

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written to Mr Ed Miliband today to call for an in-out referendum in the

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first 12 months of the next parliament, and Mr Rudd head of

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Business for New Europe. Do you think this promise meets what you

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believe to be the public mood? Not fully, but it is certainly a

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significant move in the right direction. The public mood isn't

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specifically about a referendum, the public mood is about sorting out

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what they see as the injustice and inequity within the European Union.

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Until that is addressed this issue is going to resonate very, very

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strongly. This is classic Ed Miliband isn't t it's clear as mud

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in many ways? I think it's pretty clear, if there is a transfer of

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powers to Brussels, there has to be an in-out referendum. I think the

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likelihood of that transfer is extremely unlikely because you have

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seen Germany, you have seen France, you have seen the positions of these

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major European powers, there isn't going to be treaty change, not for

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the foreseeable future. So you think it is showing the public mood? I

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think it is very unlikely there will be a major treaty change, but I

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think it is right if there was one that transferred powers to Brussels,

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there should be a referendum on in-out, that is fair, I don't see

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why you pick a particular date and time to pacify euro-sceptics who are

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never going to be pass satisfied because they want to leave the

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European Union. There would be an advantage to picking a deadline

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wouldn't there? The advantage is that as leverage in negotiating,

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David Cameron wants more flexible labour markets, that is not what the

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public is telling me they want. They want the opposite. This is about

:09:53.:09:58.

jobs and about some powers coming back into this country. And that

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word that people don't like talking about in Westminster, "immigration".

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What do you feel will be the reaction among the people that you

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have been speaking to in the light of Labour's experience in

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Government? People want to see, and what they are saying, Labour voters,

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not least, want to see their voice being heard. They want to be trusted

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and what they want is a significant reduction in the powers of the

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European Union, particularly over jobs. If that doesn't happen then

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people are not going to be happy. That is not what is being promised

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is it? Not yet, but it is in the right direction. You have got

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Cameron going one way, saying he wants more flexible labour markets,

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agency workers is a good example of where Ed Miliband, I think, will go

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next and saying we need stronger laws that in essence outmanoeuvre

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the European Union and their flexible labour market mentality on

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agencies. If that happens that would be hugely popular in the country.

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You are rather chuffed aren't you? I think it is rather good move because

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I would like to see Britain remain in the European Union. I don't want

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to see an arbitary date in terms of referendum. It is right to have one

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when there is a transfer of powers. Despite the fact as Emily has

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pointed out, he's talking much of Cameron's language here? Well he is

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a little bit on immigration, and I don't particularly necessary agree

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with all of that. I think allowing the accession aid in 2004 was a good

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move. Other things like not allowing child benefit for people who work

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here from the European Union is perfectly acceptable. There are

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sensible reforms, we do need Europe reformed and there is a real

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possibility in getting more reform from Europe. But perhaps where I

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would disagree with John is I think you are much more likely to get that

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reform if you are seen to be somebody who wants to remain in

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Europe and who doesn't threaten to leave at arbitary dates. What does

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it do to the position of UKIP in the elections do you think? Well, you

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know, UKIP are going to continue to argue that we should leave and we

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need to leave immediately. Obviously the Conservatives will say we're the

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only party which you can rely on to have a referendum early on in this.

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And in some ways we have seen it with the Immigration Minister and

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Conservatives, they will try to out-UKIP, UKIP on some issues.

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Ultimately that is dangerous because if you are worried about immigration

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and decide you want to stop it at all costs you will vote for UKIP not

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a pale imitation. That gives you a problem doesn't it? UKIP, if they

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weren't a bunch of fruitcakes then UKIP would be getting somewhere.

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Let's hold the abuse aside for a second? That is how the public sees

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them, not just me, and therefore UKIP, they will do better at the

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European elections, there are other elections. But this isn't about

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UKIP. They are still voting for these fruitcakes. If you want a

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referendum on Europe the only people to guarantee it are UKIP and Tories?

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The agenda in Europe will change when you get extreme parties in the

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right and left anti-European Union, in other countries, particularly the

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south and Eastern Europe, you get them elected to the European

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Parliament, that is the earthquake that is coming. What Ed Miliband

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needs to do when that happens is take the big issues, such as agency

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workers, such as jobs, and ensure that the Labour Party is speaking

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for its own voters on that. If it does, it will be the right position

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in British politics. We will get more jobs if we remain in the

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European Union. We extend the European market and push hard on

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trade agreements and make sure it is the capital city of Europe. Those

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are the areas we will ensure greater job production than we will by

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threatening to leave or fighting on single issues that could actually

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jeopardise our membership. Thank you very much both of you. It is a

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little over a month since a man from Sussex became the first British

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person to die carrying out a suicide bomb attack in the Syrian Civil War.

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He left behind three children. There are said to be hundreds of British

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men who may have become involved in that war about whom the security

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forces say they have significant worries. It boils down to this,

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could someone who travels to fight in a foreign war return to Britain

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so hardened that they are willing to use violence here to advance their

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beliefs? We report. This is Britain's first suicide

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bomber killed in Syria. Filmed moments before he blew himself up,

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at the gates of Aleppo Prison. Abdul Majid is the tenth man from Britain

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known to have died on the Mirrian battlefield. He has been portrayed

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as dang us fanatic, adding to the authorities' fears that this will

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bring bloodshed back home. They may be radicalised and brutalised by

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some of the experiences they see. Syria has become the Jihadi

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destination of choice. But to his family, friends and some Muslims

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Majid was something else entirely. My brother was not a terrorist. My

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brother was a hero. He made the ultimate sacrifice to save the

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Syrian people. We have spoken exclusively to his closest friend,

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who travelled to Syria with him. I don't see how he is in any way

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promoting the idea of returning back to any western country to carry out

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acts of terrorism. His journey started in Crawley West Sussex, but

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ended thousands of miles from home. When he got behind the wheel of this

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struck bomb. This is the story of the man from Martyres Avenue. He's

:15:52.:16:03.

in the camp and putting on a show for the children here. It was days

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before his family realised he had been involved. He had gone to Syria

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six months earlier with a nationwide aid convoy. My heart sank, my mum

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and dad's hearts san We were extremely grief-striken when we saw

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the moment, extremely shocked and deeply, deeply worried. Majeed was a

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married man with three children. He had a steady job with the Highways

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Agency. His brother said Majeed went to Syria to make a difference. He

:16:39.:16:44.

saw there was people being oppressed, people with no food,

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people being torn apart from their families, people being put in prison

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and he just thought this was a great injustice. His friend went with him,

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he says that they maintained refugee camps along the Turkey-Syria border,

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Mr Mahmood returned in January but his friend stayed on. We put down

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panels for channels for generators to be set up. Cables to be tied to

:17:17.:17:21.

poles. These kinds of ideas to improve the situation in a

:17:22.:17:27.

particular campsite. Did he ever fight? No, no. Did he ever talk

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about fighting? No. Very, very busy with the work he was doing. There

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was periods of time when we were apart. Wren When we were together it

:17:42.:17:46.

was the might of the people, how we were assisting and helping them.

:17:47.:17:51.

Majeed's family and friends believe he launched an attack to free

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prisoners after reports of appalling treatment in the jails. His friend

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said he had been deeply affected by the war. You would see the glaze in

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his eye, and tears, these stories are shocking what these people have

:18:08.:18:16.

gone through. My's Majeed's attack was carried out by one of several

:18:17.:18:22.

affiliated to Al-Qaeda groups. The BBC has been unable to verify

:18:23.:18:27.

claims. Afterwards there were reports that Majeed, who lived on

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the improbably named In the at thes Avenue. As man he had attended talks

:18:36.:18:45.

of a group. It is claimed the leader drove him to regular meetings in the

:18:46.:18:52.

town. Some of the men were convicted in Operation Crevice, a massive

:18:53.:18:56.

operation that thwarted plots to blow up targets in Britain. Majeed

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was not implicated and he had left Al Majhagaroon. He had been in touch

:19:05.:19:12.

with them and they didn't marry with his beliefs. He stayed with them for

:19:13.:19:23.

a short time and moved on. This man's brother was jailed for his

:19:24.:19:28.

part in a plot but neither he nor his brother were Jihadists he says.

:19:29.:19:40.

While Majeed's final days are unclear, other men are clear about

:19:41.:19:44.

their intentions. Such talk has triggered alarm back home, police

:19:45.:19:47.

have arrested more than 30 people this year in investigations related

:19:48.:19:50.

to Syria, including four people today. The former Quan tan Mo bay

:19:51.:20:01.

detainee Begg is one of those arrested. There is mounting concern

:20:02.:20:07.

in Whitehall, one official says Syria is the biggest security

:20:08.:20:15.

challenge since 9/11. MI5 is looking at hundreds of men in Syria. They

:20:16.:20:20.

could return battle hardened prepared to bring terrorism to the

:20:21.:20:24.

streets of Britain. I understand the desire for people to want to help,

:20:25.:20:29.

to give humanitarian assistance. But that puts them at risk going out

:20:30.:20:33.

there, and they may come into contact with extremist

:20:34.:20:36.

organisations, sometimes linked to Al-Qaeda, the al-Nusra front, the so

:20:37.:20:44.

called Islamic state of Iraq and Levant, how they might be

:20:45.:20:48.

radicalised or brutalised by some of the experiences they see. At

:20:49.:20:53.

Crawley's main mosque some worshippers are sceptical that

:20:54.:20:57.

anyone fighting to bring down Syria's corrupt regime could be a

:20:58.:21:01.

threat to Britain. As far as I'm aware no innocents were targeted.

:21:02.:21:04.

You could question what he did, but I wouldn't say he's terrorising

:21:05.:21:10.

anyone the people say it is an act of terrorism, who is he terrorising.

:21:11.:21:16.

Mosque leaders say Muslims feel an obligation to help the Syrians, they

:21:17.:21:21.

now fear if they do they will be criminalised. It is very confusing,

:21:22.:21:29.

the message is not clear. Every day new messages come up and they came

:21:30.:21:33.

too late. Ministers deny any confusion, for them it is quite

:21:34.:21:37.

clear. People should not travel to Syria. Because of the risk that it

:21:38.:21:44.

poses to them and how actually it makes matters worse, it does not

:21:45.:21:49.

assist in terms of the Syrian people who have said clearly they don't

:21:50.:21:53.

want foreign fighters but humanitarian aid. Black in Crawley,

:21:54.:21:58.

Majeed's family are coming to terms with his death. For them he died

:21:59.:22:03.

trying to do good, no matter how shocking it would appear to others.

:22:04.:22:12.

A lot of people would struggle to understand how driving a truck full

:22:13.:22:21.

of explosives into a target would help anybody If I can put it like

:22:22.:22:25.

this, and if my brother had been a soldier and the people in that

:22:26.:22:29.

prison. And the act of bravery he did, I know he would have been

:22:30.:22:39.

awarded the posthumous Victoria Cross. My brother was not a

:22:40.:22:42.

terrorist but a hero, he was not a threat to the British public and

:22:43.:22:50.

never has been a threat to the British public. They can feed you,

:22:51.:22:56.

lend you money and bury you, but the Co-Op apparently cannot run itself

:22:57.:23:01.

efficiently. The man appointed to sort it all out resigned saying more

:23:02.:23:06.

or less it was ungovernable. The poor old Co-Op, once a name for

:23:07.:23:13.

non-conformist probity, had a leader in a drugs sting, another leader

:23:14.:23:19.

walk out and apparent hedge funds with expensive suits. The latest man

:23:20.:23:26.

to go, jumped or pushed. What he was trying to do was clear out the

:23:27.:23:33.

maze-like structure of the Co-Op, as well as slim it down. He was going

:23:34.:23:36.

to take power from members, they have a strange, unusual democracy in

:23:37.:23:41.

the business, he made enemies trying to do that, not least that people

:23:42.:23:44.

didn't like the fact he was going to be paid ?3 million to do so. I'm

:23:45.:23:48.

told a small but disruptive group on the board essentially made it

:23:49.:23:53.

impossible for him to stay. This afternoon he walked, having

:23:54.:23:56.

threatened to resign. What is interesting is there are seven

:23:57.:23:58.

different inquiries going on into what went wrong at the Co-Op, seven

:23:59.:24:04.

of them. And I'm told that for some people his departure is seen as

:24:05.:24:08.

having been a semi-deliberate move to cover the back sides of those who

:24:09.:24:12.

may be discredits when what really went wrong goes public. Let's not be

:24:13.:24:17.

inhibited by the seven inquiries, what has gone wrong at the Co-Op? A

:24:18.:24:22.

group founded on 19th century ethics of graft, saving and looking after

:24:23.:24:27.

your neighbours really got a bit greedy. In the last ten years they

:24:28.:24:30.

started buying up lots of businesses, most notably taking on

:24:31.:24:34.

the Britannia, with lots of bad debt. You ended up with a business

:24:35.:24:39.

built around a democratic committee structure trying to run a sprawling

:24:40.:24:43.

group owing lots of money to lots of people. I think there was a culture

:24:44.:24:46.

clash and they couldn't cope with the business. They do now have a

:24:47.:24:51.

financial plan to shore up the business, but there are still lots

:24:52.:24:55.

of whispers in the city that they could end up on the brink again. We

:24:56.:24:59.

expect them toy a nouns ?2 billion worth of losses in the next couple

:25:00.:25:05.

of weeks. Their group's revenue last year was only -- to announce a ?2

:25:06.:25:09.

billion worth of losses in the next couple of weeks, they can't really

:25:10.:25:13.

withstand more losses stemming the flow. The death of one of the best

:25:14.:25:17.

known trade union leaders in Britain was announced today, last month Bob

:25:18.:25:24.

Crow was vilified for taking a holiday in Brazil just before a

:25:25.:25:27.

planned strike on the London Underground. Today even his enemies

:25:28.:25:35.

were naming him a man of Prince penal and determination. The respect

:25:36.:25:39.

for the dead is as old as the hills, but today there seemed to be

:25:40.:25:43.

something else going o Joining Paul Merton tonight is the transport

:25:44.:25:49.

leader who boasts he uses public transport every day, not if some

:25:50.:25:54.

idiot calls a strike, please welcome Bob Crow. He may not have led the

:25:55.:26:01.

biggest of trade unions but he had a name known the envy of some party

:26:02.:26:05.

leaders. He was painted as a Boeing Yeoman and he loved it. We have to

:26:06.:26:10.

stop now, because Bob has negotiated a ten-minute tea break! He He wasn't

:26:11.:26:18.

a man of half measures or compromise, not what you would call

:26:19.:26:23.

a mincer of words. I feel absolutely betrayed by this new Labour

:26:24.:26:27.

Government, for not renationalising this rail network and stealing ahead

:26:28.:26:32.

with the privatisation of London Underground. They called him

:26:33.:26:36.

variously a dinosaur, a firebrand, a communist, no insult to him, frozen

:26:37.:26:42.

commuters on strike bound railway platforms called him much worse. Yet

:26:43.:26:49.

his unexpected death drew near universal acknowledgement he did his

:26:50.:26:52.

job well. I didn't always agree with what he had to say. I will say this,

:26:53.:26:57.

together with other union members Bob Crow unquestionably helped to

:26:58.:27:02.

drive forward huge progress on London Underground and he leaves a

:27:03.:27:07.

massive legacy behind. Other unions might wither, but during his dozen

:27:08.:27:15.

years at the RMT, membership significantly increased. It wasn't

:27:16.:27:18.

that he was unafraid, it was that he could start a fight in an empty

:27:19.:27:22.

room. This was mere days before the last tube strike. Sit round a table,

:27:23.:27:27.

explain about the new technology. I'm sorry Bob, there is a table to

:27:28.:27:32.

be sat round by you and your team. But we can't do it with a gun to our

:27:33.:27:38.

head. Yet for all his reputation as an old-style union prize fighter,

:27:39.:27:42.

Bob Crow was media savvy and politically quite acute. All you

:27:43.:27:46.

normally need to do in length land to become a national treasure sure

:27:47.:27:49.

is to live long enough, he didn't get the chance. But in his death he

:27:50.:27:57.

seems to have become one any way. Here to discuss Bob Crow's legacy is

:27:58.:28:01.

the former Mayor of London, Ken Livingston, and with him the Times

:28:02.:28:11.

columnist and Danny Finkelstein, Lord Fink

:28:12.:28:17.

The strategy We admire people on the public stage

:28:18.:28:27.

who stand up for the things they believe in and people are saying

:28:28.:28:32.

nice things about him. Everyone has their own views, I didn't agree with

:28:33.:28:36.

his politics and thought he was wrong-headed. On the day he dies

:28:37.:28:39.

naturally people are respecting him, that is the good thing about this

:28:40.:28:42.

country, people are decent to each other in these sorts of situations.

:28:43.:28:46.

Part of it is being compute off in your prime, isn't it? It is, if he

:28:47.:28:50.

hadn't died today he would be vilified for the stance he took. But

:28:51.:28:54.

the big thing about Bob Crow is I can't think of any other group of

:28:55.:28:59.

people in working-class jobs whose pay and conditions and pension

:29:00.:29:03.

haven't been degraded over recent years. He fought to keep them with a

:29:04.:29:09.

decent standard of living. He succeeded, and I think it is a

:29:10.:29:13.

strong lesson to other trade unionists, it is no good pandering

:29:14.:29:16.

to the establishment or trying to suck up, or hoping you will get a

:29:17.:29:19.

deal. At the end of the day you have to stand up and fight or your

:29:20.:29:24.

members' living standard will be degraded. Are you nodding there? I

:29:25.:29:35.

thought it was He was an unusual figure. Bob Crow understood

:29:36.:29:39.

capitalism, he cornered the market in railway workers and exploited the

:29:40.:29:44.

monopoly he created. When he argued towards the end of his life he was

:29:45.:29:49.

worth the money he was paid, he was quite right. But that was at

:29:50.:29:51.

variance with the principle of equity. The money he was getting for

:29:52.:29:54.

railway workers had to come from other workers travelling on the

:29:55.:29:58.

tube. So that tension actually was one of the things that bedevilled

:29:59.:30:03.

the Labour Party in the 1960s and 1970s, as they began to realise that

:30:04.:30:08.

trade unionism pushing for wages for less well off people and vulnerable

:30:09.:30:11.

people, a very good thing, is at variance of the broader principle of

:30:12.:30:15.

equity, because it involves fighting for a sectional interest. Crow was a

:30:16.:30:20.

really interesting figure and he will be analysed for a long time,

:30:21.:30:24.

partly when people die shocking deaths and they are young that leads

:30:25.:30:27.

sort of people to assess their careers when they are in mid-flight

:30:28.:30:31.

I suppose that will happen. What did you make of the fact that Boris

:30:32.:30:36.

Johnson sought out the first television camera he could in order

:30:37.:30:41.

to say what a wonderful chap Bob Crow was? Having basically

:30:42.:30:45.

disparaged him for several years and refusing to meet him. Bob Crow was

:30:46.:30:50.

one of my supporters when I was running as an independent against

:30:51.:30:55.

the new Labour machine. We had a joint campaign against Gordon

:30:56.:31:00.

Brown's attempt to partially privatise the underground. Once I

:31:01.:31:03.

had become the mayor and I had to negotiate we had rows and

:31:04.:31:07.

disagreements. What I found good about Bob is he would come into the

:31:08.:31:11.

room and tell you exactly what he wanted, there was never any

:31:12.:31:15.

dissellbling, and dishonesty. We had some terrible rows but at the end of

:31:16.:31:18.

the day the number of days lost under strikes in the six years I was

:31:19.:31:24.

running the underground were cut by 98%, we did a fair deal. Stop

:31:25.:31:29.

blowing your own trumpet, let's deal with the terrain of why people rush

:31:30.:31:34.

out to be nice? It may be an element of hypocrisy, but it is benign. A

:31:35.:31:39.

desire, you know, he has got a young family, he has died at a tragically

:31:40.:31:45.

young age. I think of course an element of triumph for him because

:31:46.:31:49.

he lived his life absolutely to full and all the way to the end. That is

:31:50.:31:53.

the sort of triumph and strategy I'm sure he wouldn't want to be seen as

:31:54.:31:58.

a tragic figure. It's a benign hypocrisy, I wouldn't want to live

:31:59.:32:02.

in a society, I think Nigel Farage included an attack on the EU on his

:32:03.:32:06.

tweet on Bob Crow. You know you don't want to be the first person to

:32:07.:32:10.

make a minor political point when someone has just died. When Mrs

:32:11.:32:15.

Thatcher died I was fairly moderate in my criticism, I stand remind

:32:16.:32:19.

people every time she was re-elected the suicide rate doubled in the

:32:20.:32:22.

following month. Because they have got relatives and family around. It

:32:23.:32:26.

was classy to wait until now, I thought. I did write it up about 20

:32:27.:32:33.

years ago. The other thing about him he was personally very charming

:32:34.:32:40.

wasn't he. He had a charisma and a reasonableness? I think lots of

:32:41.:32:43.

people have said, that I didn't meet him for very long, you have to

:32:44.:32:48.

preach to that. To me speaking as a middle-class Jew from Pinner, he was

:32:49.:32:51.

quite aggressive, I suspect that was part of how he got what he wanted

:32:52.:32:55.

from people. I found him personally sort of bristling with a bit of

:32:56.:32:59.

menace. But I can imagine he was charming. You can't get to the top

:33:00.:33:03.

of a union like that and make the kind of strong appeal, he was in

:33:04.:33:08.

some tough fights. I do have to say I didn't think they were always

:33:09.:33:12.

well-picked fights and they were in favour of a sectional interest on

:33:13.:33:16.

behalf of which he did very well. But I, I would say this, and he

:33:17.:33:19.

would expect me to say this I think that was at the expense of a broader

:33:20.:33:24.

interest. What is so striking about Bob Crow, there are so few

:33:25.:33:30.

working-class people still in leading positions in Britain. Years

:33:31.:33:34.

ago in parliament and business there were. We have had a middle-class,

:33:35.:33:38.

everyone has to be a graduate and all that, the good thing about Bob

:33:39.:33:42.

Crow, having got that position he carried on living his life as he had

:33:43.:33:46.

before. He didn't leave his council flat to buy a house in Hampstead or

:33:47.:33:52.

have a chauffeur-driven car and use transport, he was confident and

:33:53.:33:55.

happy in his working-class culture. We have seen the working-class

:33:56.:34:01.

culture being demonised, it is all Benefits Street, and the respect

:34:02.:34:07.

that post-war generation of politicians had for the

:34:08.:34:09.

working-class because they had fought with them in the Second World

:34:10.:34:12.

War and they saw their courage, that has been striped out of society.

:34:13.:34:17.

There is lots of conservatism to admire in someone who has an

:34:18.:34:21.

appreciation of their identity and see it as a position. I can't agree

:34:22.:34:24.

with him living in a council house, this is not the moment for beige

:34:25.:34:27.

argument about that. I think there was more to it than simply an

:34:28.:34:31.

identity issue. But nevertheless, his private in his identity and

:34:32.:34:35.

willingness to exemptionify was obviously part of why he will be

:34:36.:34:40.

well known and highly thought of by lots of people and controversial to

:34:41.:34:46.

lots of others. Thank you very much. The Malaysian airliner that

:34:47.:34:49.

disappeared four days ago still hasn't been found. Despite the area

:34:50.:34:52.

of the search being doubled. The plain fact is no-one has any idea

:34:53.:34:59.

where the aircraft and the 239 human beings on board are. Flying is such

:35:00.:35:04.

an intrinsic part of modern life, many of us prefer to ignore that

:35:05.:35:09.

nagging anxiety. How do I know that this thing I'm sitting inside won't

:35:10.:35:14.

just fall out of the sky. Simply not being controlled is troubling

:35:15.:35:17.

enough, leaving aside the possibility that you might suddenly

:35:18.:35:23.

disappear without a trace. The My guest is here. You are writer in

:35:24.:35:26.

residence at Heathrow weren't you? I spent a good month at Heathrow. Long

:35:27.:35:32.

enough I would have said! Have you any idea as to why this is so

:35:33.:35:36.

troubling, this idea of a plane and all its passengers disappearing? I

:35:37.:35:41.

think we are recalibrating risk. We assume, largely because of

:35:42.:35:44.

smartphones, that wherever we go we are being watched by satellite in

:35:45.:35:47.

the sky. That is not true. We are being flattered by our mobile

:35:48.:35:51.

technology. The earth remains vast, there are lots of mysteries, and

:35:52.:35:55.

what happens to this plane is what happens in lots of areas of medical

:35:56.:35:58.

science and other areas of science where there are still mysteries, not

:35:59.:36:03.

everything is answerable or under our control. It is a terribly

:36:04.:36:07.

humiliating event for human beings who like to feel they have mastered

:36:08.:36:11.

the map, they know where stuff is, this is worse than the marry sell

:36:12.:36:21.

lest, -- Marie Celeste, it is a lesson in hubris and had you malty.

:36:22.:36:26.

How much -- humility. How much is it to do with the fact of flight? There

:36:27.:36:32.

is no doubt flying remains an imaginatively extraordinary thing to

:36:33.:36:36.

do. We are earth bound creatures to take to the skies is a daunting and

:36:37.:36:43.

hubrisistic thing to do. Why do we buy all the duty-free and the

:36:44.:36:48.

rigmarole and shows on planes. It remains for humans a daunting thing.

:36:49.:36:51.

We have erased a lot of the risk, but some risk still remains. We feel

:36:52.:36:56.

some of that risk just intuitively. There is nothing more natural than

:36:57.:37:01.

the fear of flying, it is not warranted by accident statistics,

:37:02.:37:05.

but by the sheer implausibilty of being at 35,000 feet. So we feel an

:37:06.:37:09.

echo of that when we feel anxious, trapped in one of those tubes. Sheer

:37:10.:37:17.

peculiarity of a plane disappearing though, that is really weird isn't

:37:18.:37:20.

it? The news wants answers immediately. It hasn't disappeared,

:37:21.:37:24.

we just don't know the answer yet. There are lots of things to which we

:37:25.:37:28.

don't yet know the answer. Because we are so telescoped in and want

:37:29.:37:32.

answers to everything immediately. We think a couple of days is a

:37:33.:37:36.

momentous amount of time. 20, 30 years ago, when things disappeared,

:37:37.:37:41.

ships, planes, one waited, and it might be a week. It is not that

:37:42.:37:45.

long, it will show up. It hasn't disappeared, all traces can't be

:37:46.:37:49.

gone, it will be found. It will just take longer than the news cycle. It

:37:50.:37:53.

is a measure of how much we generally know. We know a lot and a

:37:54.:37:56.

lot of questions are answered for us on the hour. This one is going to

:37:57.:38:00.

take a lot long Tory resolve. That is deeply puzzling, but we need to

:38:01.:38:06.

be more modest about our capacities: It is also putting yourself in the

:38:07.:38:14.

hands of somebody else. You are up there and some people understand why

:38:15.:38:18.

a plane flies and some don't, but you are not at the controls? I found

:38:19.:38:28.

out the more you know about flying the scarier it gets. The less you

:38:29.:38:32.

know you think it is done by machines and whatever, what you

:38:33.:38:36.

realise is when you read pilots' forums it is a heavy and physical

:38:37.:38:40.

business. Landing a plane. Pilots will talk about a "difficult

:38:41.:38:45.

landing". That is scary for a passenger, what is a very difficult

:38:46.:38:48.

landing? It remains a challenging job. It is extraordinary that

:38:49.:38:53.

tonight in western Europe some 2,000 planes landed without incident at

:38:54.:38:56.

airports across the land mass. We don't give those a second thought.

:38:57.:38:59.

Very owe cruellyly something like this goes wrong. The stairs remain

:39:00.:39:03.

much riskier, the shower much more deadly than any Malaysian airliner.

:39:04.:39:09.

At the end of the day this is a giant momento, it is reminding us,

:39:10.:39:13.

life is brief, death can come suddenly, you could die of a stroke

:39:14.:39:18.

standing up in a studio, we don't expect it because we have such faith

:39:19.:39:23.

in our machines. Our machines do not guarantee us total immunity from

:39:24.:39:26.

death. It may come this evening. We need to be cautious, kind to one

:39:27.:39:30.

another while we are alive and modest about our capacities. Thank

:39:31.:39:36.

you very much, thanks. Scarcely a day goes by without one melancholy

:39:37.:39:41.

bulletin or another from Iraq, another killing or suicide bombing.

:39:42.:39:45.

But there is one corner of the country to which people are heading

:39:46.:39:50.

to get away from it all. The city of Urbil, capital of Iraqi consider

:39:51.:39:54.

disstand is famed for night life. Since it is within striking distance

:39:55.:39:58.

of the border with the Islamic Republic of Iran, it is something of

:39:59.:40:04.

a magnet for young Iranians desperate for forbidden fruit like

:40:05.:40:19.

dancing and distilled liquor. For young Iranians desperate for

:40:20.:40:20.

forbidden fruit like dancing and distilled liquor. Nothing tastes

:40:21.:40:23.

sweeter than freedom, even for a few days. Far from the eyes of the

:40:24.:40:26.

Iranian morality police, young Iranians flock to Urbil. It is a

:40:27.:40:33.

quiet corner of northern Iraq, close to the Iranian border. And there has

:40:34.:40:40.

been an explosion of shopping malles and nightclubs. This is Iraq, but

:40:41.:40:47.

not as we know it. Here there are more cranes than Minerates, more

:40:48.:40:57.

buildings than mosques. This has become the fun place in the region,

:40:58.:41:00.

especially for young Iranians who live a few hours away over the

:41:01.:41:05.

border. It is very easy for those Iranians to come here. It is not

:41:06.:41:13.

far, and they don't need a visa. When the sun goes down the young

:41:14.:41:20.

Iranians come out. Nasila, not her real name is from Tehran. She comes

:41:21.:41:28.

here frequently. The Iranians who come to Kurdistan, they drink too

:41:29.:41:35.

much, because they can find even in the desert alcohol, they show

:41:36.:41:43.

themselves with the short dress and they just think freedom is only

:41:44.:41:50.

that. This is something between me and cousins when we came to

:41:51.:41:56.

Kurdistan, I wrote "what you want might make you cry, but what you

:41:57.:42:03.

need might pass you by". She's going to one of the most exclusive

:42:04.:42:07.

nightclubs to join her Iranian friends. It is around $10 a drink.

:42:08.:42:18.

Hamid is from Iran, he's a DJ. He has been in many underground parties

:42:19.:42:23.

in Iran, but likes to come to Urbil where he can party

:42:24.:43:03.

These young Iranians are doing something that many in the west take

:43:04.:43:09.

for granted, but for them it is a big deal. A lot of people from Iran

:43:10.:43:15.

are joining us in the past year or so, more and more have been

:43:16.:43:22.

visiting. Especially in the holidays, on the national holidays.

:43:23.:43:28.

And it is not just Iranians who are flocking to Iraqi Kurdistan, with

:43:29.:43:31.

its rapid construction and liberal ethos it is attracting visitors from

:43:32.:43:39.

all over the world. But Hamed is worried his Government might prevent

:43:40.:43:43.

Iranians from coming here in the future.

:43:44.:44:09.

Hamed and Nasila represent a new generation of young Iranians, they

:44:10.:44:16.

won't accept strict Islamic rules of the clerics.

:44:17.:44:36.

Well that's just about it for tonight. Let's have a quick look at

:44:37.:44:43.

some of tomorrow morning's front pages. As expected Ed Miliband's

:44:44.:44:47.

announcement on the EU referendum which may or may not be promised is

:44:48.:44:51.

on the front page of the Financial Times.

:44:52.:45:35.

That's almost all for tonight, before we go the latest evidence

:45:36.:45:41.

that comedy is shouldering out journalism. The American spoof chat

:45:42.:45:50.

show presenter Zag Galofiniakas, won an exclusive interview with Barack

:45:51.:45:56.

Obama, it appears in the Funny or Die website. You know what I would

:45:57.:46:01.

do if I was President, Mr President. I would make same-sex divorce

:46:02.:46:06.

illegal, and then see how bad they want it? I think that's not why you

:46:07.:46:10.

are President, that is a good thing. You said if you had a son you

:46:11.:46:13.

wouldn't let him play football. What makes you think he would want to

:46:14.:46:16.

play football, what if he was a nerd like you. Do you think a woman like

:46:17.:46:21.

Michelle would marry a nerd, why don't you ask her whether she thinks

:46:22.:46:26.

I'm a nerd. Can I? No, I'm not going to let her near you. Which country

:46:27.:46:31.

were you rooting for in the winter Olympics? Seriously?

:46:32.:46:33.

Pretty cold out there in northern areas with patches of fog around, a

:46:34.:46:46.

grey start further south. I'm hopeful the cloud will get nibbled

:46:47.:46:50.

away by the sunshine. Most of us can look forward

:46:51.:46:51.

In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines with Jeremy Paxman. Includes Labour EU referendum plans, the Crawley suicide bomber, the situation at the Co-op, Bob Crow, the missing plane and young Iranians partying in Iraq.


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