10/03/2014 Newsnight


10/03/2014

With Jeremy Paxman. The postcode lottery of tackling domestic violence, Ukraine, childbirth in Uganda, the Saudi King's ex-wife and how can an aeroplane just disappear?


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Transcript


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With a victim of domestic violence, what are the chances of your

:00:08.:00:13.

attacker ending up in court. The truth is, it depends where you live.

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When I didn't do anything about it, it gave him a green light to come

:00:18.:00:21.

back the following weekend and the next weekend. The crime prevention

:00:22.:00:25.

minister faces the shadow Home Secretary? In an age when they say

:00:26.:00:31.

we are all under surveillance, how can an enormous airliner with 200

:00:32.:00:36.

people on board simply vanish. The ex-wife of the king of Saudi Arabia,

:00:37.:00:41.

tells us her daughters are being kept prisoner in the gulf.

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To be attacked is one thing, to be attacked within your home is

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another. To be attacked, often repeatedly in your own home, by

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someone with whom you have been in an intimate relationship is a

:01:00.:01:03.

special class of crime. The police forces of England and Wales say they

:01:04.:01:08.

have been making a conscientious effort to improve wait they deal

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with these cases, yet some seem to be trying harder than others. It

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wasn't home to me. It wasn't a home, to me it was a prison. It was a

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place I was being kept, I was being assaulted. Home should be where the

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heart is, not the hurt. But for too many women and some men violence

:01:37.:01:41.

behind closed doors is the norm. Claire Baker was terroristised by

:01:42.:01:45.

her partner, then she says the police let her down. I locked myself

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in the bathroom and called the police and waited for them to turn

:01:53.:01:57.

up. I was staying in the bathroom and screaming, just come, just

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somebody help me. Because he was so bad to me I always had it in my mind

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that he was going to go too far and he perhaps was going to kill me. How

:02:09.:02:13.

did the police help you or not? It was just luck of the draw on the

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day. If an officer turned up who knew anything about domestic

:02:20.:02:23.

violence they were really good to me. Some of the officers were

:02:24.:02:27.

absolutely brilliant to me. And then other officers they just treated it

:02:28.:02:35.

really as it was nothing. In Warwickshire, nearby where eventual

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conviction rights for domestic violence are high. Only a fraction

:02:42.:02:44.

of reported incidents get to court in the first place. There are

:02:45.:02:52.

significant differences, the darker colours where fewer cases are

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referred to prosecutors. This is about so much more than

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numbers. This is about what happens to women who are brave enough to

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come forward when they have been hurt. And what happens next is all

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too often dictated by where they live This isn't to do with the

:03:30.:03:32.

profile of the case but the issue in that local area. Whether the Chief

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Constable says it is important, whether all of the Sergeants that

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they are responsible for. Whether it is the constables feeling it is

:03:45.:03:49.

their responsibility to deliver access to justice to women. They

:03:50.:03:53.

make a difference. How do police forces like Warwickshire, who refer

:03:54.:04:00.

such a small portion of cases to prosecutors explain themselves. We

:04:01.:04:04.

have strongly encouraged senior detectives, professional experienced

:04:05.:04:08.

people, to really look at each individual case, work with the

:04:09.:04:12.

officer investigating that case. As I said, arrive at the right outcome

:04:13.:04:15.

for the victim. Doesn't that mean though that crimes are going

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unpunished? Not at all. The thing is that a court appearance for a victim

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is a painful and traumatic experience. We need to have a

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realistic prospect that if we go to court that we are going to have that

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criminal justice outcome and the perpetrator does receive justice.

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What though can justify you referring 3% of domestic violence

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cases and a force like Cheshire referring more than 30%? If a case

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is right to take to court, and the CPS support that, we will do that. I

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don't want give any impression that we are going soft on people who

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commit such horrendous crimes. One insider told me resources at the CPS

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are part of the problem. Every agency is suffering, they said, and

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cuts mean they have to go after cases where there is a higher chance

:05:08.:05:11.

of conviction, inevitably that means others get left by the way side. The

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Association of Chief Police Officers admits there are variations. They

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told us we have substantially improved with investment in

:05:22.:05:23.

specialist officers... Claire has rebuilt her life now,

:05:24.:05:42.

with the help of the local Women's Aid. Her ex-partner was eventually

:05:43.:05:47.

convicted. Me believes she suffered longer than she had to. I felt like

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he had come back time after time because when they didn't do anything

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about it, it gave him a green light to come back the following weekend,

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and the next weekend. With an uneven patchwork of police approaches

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around the country, she may not be the only one. We speak to Norman

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Baker the Home Office Minister shortly first I'm joined by Yvette

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Cooper, the shadow Home Secretary. These figures are based on a lot of

:06:14.:06:18.

work by the Labour Party. What do you conclude is the reason the

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picture is so patchy. I think there is two problems, first is the wide

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variation between forces, the second is that the picture has been getting

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worse across the country. So you have got a drop in the level of

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convictions and the level of referrals, in six out of seven

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forces, as well as this wide variation. And I think there is just

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not national standards in place for dealing with such a serious crime

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and there needs to be. Were there national standards in place when you

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were in office? I think we had done a lot of work to make improvements,

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for example around introducing specialist domestic violence courts.

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I don't think there were national standards in place, that is why this

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is the next step we need to have those national standards in place.

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We have been calling for them for several years now. As you know it

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was almost impossible to get this sort of information when you were in

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office, wasn't it? No, that's not true actually. If you look at

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particularly the issues around referrals and convictions, those

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were increasing as a result of a lot of hard work that was done between

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the police, the CPS, and leadership by a Labour Government introducing

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specialist prosecutors, introducing specialist teams and stronger

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training. The big problem is it has gone backwards. The problems when

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you were in office were more difficult? We have done it with

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Freedom of Information requests, and identified this information exactly

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because we think there is a serious problem. And the Government is not

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doing enough. If you had this level of violence at football matches, and

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there would be national outcry, there isn't because it takes place

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behind the net curtains. This Government brought in publication of

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the rape statistics wasn't it? No, in fact they haven't. The Government

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hasn't produced a lot of this information. So look it is important

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to have it, and we think you ought to provide more of this information

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on a consistent basis because that would help improve standards across

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the country. There is a real problem here, as your report said, that

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people don't feel they are getting the support they need. Victims are

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not getting the support they need in such a horrible crime and it is

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getting worse. Since the election you have had an 11 pest increase %

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increase in domestic violence cases being reported, and an 11% drop in

:08:36.:08:40.

the number of convictions for domestic violence. You have

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perpetrators of abuse getting away with it. Is it better that police

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officers exercise their judgment? Of course police officers have to

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exercise judgment every day of the week. But at the moment you are

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seeing such wide variations, I think we need national standards in place

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about support for victims, about the way in which the police need to

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respond, and the Government so far refused to do that. We also think we

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should have a national commissioner in place to deal with domestic and

:09:07.:09:10.

sexual violence because there are similar problems around rape cases.

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And you can give a guarantee, can you, that under a Labour Government

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there would be no more of the pattern of the closure of Rape

:09:18.:09:21.

Crisis centres that we saw when Labour was last in power? If you

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think about all of the work that the Labour Government did. On both rape

:09:27.:09:30.

and domestic violence, we had for example a 45% increase in rape

:09:31.:09:34.

convictions, there was a lot of work that was very good, was it enough?

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No of course it wasn't. Because you had serious crimes like this. And

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Rape Crisis Centres closed on your woke didn't they? There was a lot of

:09:45.:09:49.

support for victims, the independent advisers on domestic violence and

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rape as well. You want to do more, and in fact the clock has been

:09:53.:09:55.

turning back instead of going further. You can give that

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guarantee? You know I'm not going to set out funding for things in the

:10:00.:10:04.

next parliament at this stage. At this stage. It is a test of your

:10:05.:10:08.

commitment? We have said our commitment is to have national

:10:09.:10:11.

standards for domestic violence, sexual violence, dealing with rape

:10:12.:10:15.

cases and a national commissioner in place who could make sure that those

:10:16.:10:18.

standards are enforced. Because I do think that you need national

:10:19.:10:23.

leadership on this. And Teresa May hasn't done anything to spot this

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deterioration in action against such serious crimes, particularly against

:10:30.:10:32.

women. Although domestic violence includes women as well. Thank you

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very much. Now Norman Baker who is the crime prevention minister is

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with us. What is your explanation for the fact that picture are so

:10:41.:10:45.

patchy? They are, and that is one of the reasons why the Home Secretary

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and I have asked the Inspector of Constabulary to look at all 43

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forces in England and Wales to examine why it is patchy and why the

:10:54.:10:56.

domestic violence rates are different. That work is on going, it

:10:57.:11:01.

is completely produced soon with a proper comment from HMRC. You were

:11:02.:11:06.

unaware of it before today? Of course not. That is why the Home

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Secretary and I commissioned the work. We recognised there was an

:11:09.:11:12.

issue of disparity across the country. There are a number of

:11:13.:11:15.

possible explanations, it is possible different forces are

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looking at it in different ways, and crimes are being recorded under a

:11:19.:11:22.

different heading, violence and not domestic violence. HMRC is looking

:11:23.:11:28.

into that and referral process. When did you commission the research?

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Last year. How many years did it take to realise there was a patchy

:11:33.:11:35.

picture? That is not fair, there is a huge amount of work going on in

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the Home Office since 2010. The Home Secretary has been very good on

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these issues, I have to say. We have seen the roll out of Claire's Law,

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the disclosure orders to protect women from potentially violent

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partners and the protection orders to allow the sort of person in your

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film to be able to stay in your house and the perpetrator be removed

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from it rather than her leaving it. There is an action plan we published

:12:00.:12:04.

an updated version on Saturdayed, for International Women's Day. Why

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does it take the Labour Party or the House of Commons library to go

:12:10.:12:12.

through a Freedom of Information exercise to find out much of the

:12:13.:12:16.

information? It doesn't. It has done? No, it will be published hash

:12:17.:12:22.

on this -- later on this month with a commentary per force, so people

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can look at individual forces and see what they are doing, rather than

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taking figures, I'm not blaming Yvette and her team. That is patchy,

:12:32.:12:35.

we want a full proper analysis, and that will be coming forward. What do

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you make then of the argument that police forces and the Crown

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Prosecution Service are under pressure that wasn't previously

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there before you took office? They are under pressure from ministers to

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deal with domestic violence properly, they are under pressure

:12:50.:12:53.

from us to deal with rape properly. That is a pressure I accept. It has

:12:54.:12:58.

nothing to do with resources? If you are asking about resources, crime

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has gone down 10% under this Government. We have seen violent

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crime go down as well. That is measured not simply by police

:13:05.:13:09.

recorded crime but also the official independent crime survey of England

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and Wales. And the police have fewer crimes to deal with. There is the

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digitalisation of the police force, so less paperwork to do. I don't

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think resources is the issue here. The issue is perhaps a culture thing

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in each force, which HMRC will get to the bottom of. You are in favour

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of policemen exercising judgment aren't you? Of course. When they

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exercise judgment you are going to get discrepancies? You will get

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differences. But if the difference is significant it is perfectly

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proper and right for the Government to ask the proper body n this case

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the Inspector of Constabulary to look at the differences and find out

:13:47.:13:49.

the reason. And whether or not some women and indeed men for that matter

:13:50.:13:53.

are not being given the support they have been given by the system. The

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rescuers searching for the traces of the malaisian airliner which

:14:00.:14:02.

disappeared are still criss-crossing the sea south of Vietnam, it is now

:14:03.:14:06.

three days since the aircraft disappeared. Three days since 239

:14:07.:14:13.

hum beings vanished. In an age we are all subject to surveillance and

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personal phones emit GPS signals, how can such a thing happen. It is

:14:20.:14:24.

not unprecedented but it is highly unusual.

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The hours pass and still no sign of Malaysian Airlines flight. Hours of

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anger and uncertainty for families with nowhere to go. Couped up in a

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Beijing hotel until they and we know what happened to the 239 passengers

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and crew. At the moment there are just questions. In many cases what

:14:50.:14:54.

sounds like heart-breakingly defiant optimisim. TRANSLATION: Our hearts

:14:55.:15:01.

are hanging in the air. We hope our Government can put some pressure on

:15:02.:15:04.

them to increase their efforts to save them. Meanwhile the Chinese

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Government is sending out increasingly impatient criticism of

:15:10.:15:13.

the search effort by both Malaysia and Vietnam. How is it possible that

:15:14.:15:19.

we don't know what happened to this plane? If it exploded in midair US

:15:20.:15:26.

spy satellites, that notice the smallest flare of a missile launch,

:15:27.:15:29.

would have expected to see a flash. Sources have confirmed they have

:15:30.:15:32.

gone back over the images and found nothing. If the aircraft came down

:15:33.:15:36.

in one piece it should have been visible to radar, and the crew,

:15:37.:15:40.

should, in theory would have had time to issue a distress call. To

:15:41.:15:45.

add to the riddle the plane was fitted with the next generation of

:15:46.:15:51.

satellite tracking systems. Called ADSB, the plane gets its position

:15:52.:15:59.

from a GPs a GPS satellite, it broadcasts this speed and altitude

:16:00.:16:03.

and other data to anyone with the right receiver. In time air traffic

:16:04.:16:08.

control authorities will move from ground-based radar systems to ADSB.

:16:09.:16:13.

At the moment it is used by flight tracking websites who admit they

:16:14.:16:16.

don't have enough ground stations in the area to give a complete picture.

:16:17.:16:21.

We have one receiver close to Malaysia, and we have one receiver

:16:22.:16:33.

in hoe cheat Ho Chi Min, and in the best conditions we would like to

:16:34.:16:39.

have a receiver every 50-100kms to get really good coverage. What of

:16:40.:16:45.

the flight data recorders? If the plane crashed into the sea the boxes

:16:46.:16:51.

should be sending out sonar pings to guide recovery. But the right

:16:52.:16:57.

receiver are needed to hear them. It may take days to get vessels on to

:16:58.:17:02.

the research grid. In the case of the Air France flight that crashed

:17:03.:17:06.

in the Atlantic on route from Rio to Paris in 2009, the recorders weren't

:17:07.:17:11.

found for nearly two years, and then only found using mathematical

:17:12.:17:20.

modelling. We used something bald basing search theory, it was

:17:21.:17:24.

developed during World War II to search for German submarines. This

:17:25.:17:29.

pulls together information, each piece of information has

:17:30.:17:33.

uncertainties and some conflicts in it. And there is a mathematical

:17:34.:17:38.

theory for a way to account for the uncertainties properly, combine all

:17:39.:17:40.

this information to get the best estimate for the location of the

:17:41.:17:47.

wreck. Meanwhile there are just uncertainties, families with nothing

:17:48.:17:54.

to do but hope and pray. With us now is Professor Grahamrate Braithwaite

:17:55.:18:07.

from Cranfield University. It is not normal? It is incredibly unusual,

:18:08.:18:10.

there have been aircraft that have been difficult to find. It will be

:18:11.:18:14.

found eventually? That is essential. An aircraft like the 777 is used

:18:15.:18:18.

across the world, a very popular aircraft type and there is no way we

:18:19.:18:22.

would accept not finding this aircraft. Even if it takes years it

:18:23.:18:27.

will be done. Could it take years? It is conceivable it could take that

:18:28.:18:31.

time to recover wreckage, we saw that in the Air France 447 accident

:18:32.:18:36.

a few years ago. It is unlikely. If it is sound something will be found

:18:37.:18:42.

relatively quickly. Have you got a theory about how it could suddenly

:18:43.:18:46.

disappear? There is a few explanations for it. But in my

:18:47.:18:49.

discipline of accident investigation you have to be very careful about

:18:50.:18:53.

coming up with theories so early on, because that easily turns into

:18:54.:18:57.

speculation. So it is essential to keep an open find about what may

:18:58.:19:02.

have happened here. Clearly it lost contact and clearly it did so in a

:19:03.:19:07.

way that didn't give many clues as it lost contact. It tells you

:19:08.:19:12.

something about there are lots of possibilities at this stage. I was

:19:13.:19:15.

under the impression that modern planes constantly emitted a signal,

:19:16.:19:19.

is that correct? There is a lot of data leaving an aircraft. Not all of

:19:20.:19:22.

it is there leaving it the whole time to tell you where it is.

:19:23.:19:25.

Particularly if you are flying over an ocean where there are not the

:19:26.:19:28.

ground stations to receive that data. If you multiply that by how

:19:29.:19:33.

many aircraft flying at any one time, that is a huge amount of data.

:19:34.:19:37.

It is not transmitting location all of the time. Can pilots switch it

:19:38.:19:42.

off? It is possible to disable some of that information on t aircraft.

:19:43.:19:45.

Whether you would lose everything that might come down to some very

:19:46.:19:49.

bad luck or a more determined action. So for example one of the

:19:50.:19:54.

things if the aircraft had crashed that they might look for is a

:19:55.:19:57.

locator beacon that should be activated by the crash or entry to

:19:58.:20:01.

water. That beacon can be damaged by an accident. It could be unlucky

:20:02.:20:05.

there and lose the signal before it can be picked up. People always talk

:20:06.:20:12.

in these circumstances about the black box flight recorder as being

:20:13.:20:15.

the thing that would explain to you, although after the event. We saw in

:20:16.:20:19.

the piece there that it took a couple of years or something before

:20:20.:20:24.

they found those off, they are not plaque of course, -- black or

:20:25.:20:30.

anything, off the France flight? I would anticipate they would be

:20:31.:20:33.

found. They emit a signal that should last for 30 days, maybe as

:20:34.:20:37.

long as 90 days. You have to get close to it to pick it up, depending

:20:38.:20:45.

on the depth, defending on the temperature of the ocean, it might

:20:46.:20:50.

be an area close to five miles. You need to know where to look before

:20:51.:21:00.

picking the beacon up. What happens then? Depending on the depth of the

:21:01.:21:04.

water they are likely to send down a remote low-operated vehicle which

:21:05.:21:08.

can recover the recorder and pull it out of the wreckage of the aircraft

:21:09.:21:13.

if it is not separated. Assuming the recorders are working and assuming

:21:14.:21:16.

nobody tried to disable them, that should tell you about what happened

:21:17.:21:20.

on the flight. It isn't the panaseer, it doesn't all tell you

:21:21.:21:26.

the answer. Have you come across cases where they weren't working or

:21:27.:21:30.

had been disabled? There were cases where some of the perameters weren't

:21:31.:21:34.

working. Modern flight data recorders could record hundreds if

:21:35.:21:38.

not thousands of perameters, it is possible some perameters aren't

:21:39.:21:41.

working. Usually there is enough of a picture to tell you the answer.

:21:42.:21:46.

There was a previous case involving Silk Air a few years ago, where the

:21:47.:21:50.

circuit breaker was pulled in flight to disable the flight data recorder

:21:51.:21:54.

before the aircraft crashed. That told us what was going Onyango the

:21:55.:21:58.

aircraft. This is kind of modern nightmare, isn't it, that you get on

:21:59.:22:02.

a plane and you may never be seen again and nobody knows what happened

:22:03.:22:07.

to you, it is extremely rare isn't it? It is, after the Air France

:22:08.:22:13.

accident there was an analysis of how likely an event, where the

:22:14.:22:15.

aircraft that was difficult to find would be, and the demand -- estimate

:22:16.:22:26.

of that was ten years, and we have another one in two or three years.

:22:27.:22:30.

Perhaps there won't be another for 15 years? Let's hope that is the

:22:31.:22:35.

case. It is hardly news to say that Saudi Arabia is one of the most

:22:36.:22:38.

male-dominated societies in the world. Women aren't even supposed to

:22:39.:22:43.

drive cars there. King Abdullah has promised women will be allowed a

:22:44.:22:46.

vote of sorts next year. But his former wife has now claimed that her

:22:47.:22:50.

daughters are being kept under a form of house arrest there. She told

:22:51.:22:57.

the Sunday Times that her daughters are under constant surveillance and

:22:58.:23:01.

appeal for their release. She has agreed to speak us to about the

:23:02.:23:04.

allegations earlier this evening, but she didn't want her identity to

:23:05.:23:12.

be revealed. What do you know about the conditions your daughters are

:23:13.:23:20.

kept in? Very bad conditions, two of them I don't know if you read about

:23:21.:23:28.

that, they are in a terrible state of health. Hala is completely

:23:29.:23:35.

destroyed, anorexic, she needs help, she lives alone and in that villa.

:23:36.:23:41.

The last time she called me a few weeks ago she told me, mummy, I

:23:42.:23:50.

don't have anyone, I'm hungry. No-one is preparing. She said no,

:23:51.:23:58.

no, I have food but I don't want to eat. It is like ready food, junk

:23:59.:24:03.

food or whatever it is. I don't know really what it is. But I know the

:24:04.:24:11.

situation for a woman nobody is helping, if they don't buy you food,

:24:12.:24:16.

bring you food, you can never eat even that. They are not able to go

:24:17.:24:27.

out shopping? I know very well about two of them can go shopping. They

:24:28.:24:33.

can go shopping, but they are not really imprisoned are they? It

:24:34.:24:37.

depends how you look at it. If you only allowed this and then going out

:24:38.:24:45.

so that they will make your trip unbearable so that's it. Basically

:24:46.:24:51.

even a doctor they cannot have the choice to go to. They can't travel,

:24:52.:24:59.

they can't move, if they decide that they will do a trip, they can't do

:25:00.:25:05.

it. Those people who follow them they are not for the safety. And

:25:06.:25:11.

they are just to make the situation terrible for them. Do you know why

:25:12.:25:18.

they are being treated like this? Yeah, yeah. As I have told you, you

:25:19.:25:22.

are owned. For me I was divorced and I didn't go back. Plus he didn't

:25:23.:25:29.

find, I was always obeying his orders. Don't trouble, I was

:25:30.:25:38.

divorced. But he still insisted that if he doesn't want me to travel, he

:25:39.:25:45.

says no, and that means no. Basically I... Have they tried to

:25:46.:25:56.

leave the country? No, how? I suppose they would ask for

:25:57.:25:59.

passports? They asked many times to come and see me, they were refused.

:26:00.:26:08.

The King told them either you marry or die? His other daughters are free

:26:09.:26:13.

to go wherever they want without escorts I know this, I used to come

:26:14.:26:19.

here, travel, go anywhere without anyone. Is it true they are actually

:26:20.:26:26.

imprisoned or held in a palace? Yes. I call it this, when you are locked,

:26:27.:26:32.

your gate is locked from the outside, that means you are

:26:33.:26:41.

imprisoned. You will understand it doesn't sound very grim this prison?

:26:42.:26:45.

It doesn't. For a woman to be not allowed to live normally day and

:26:46.:26:55.

night, watched, I don't know, what do you mean by that, you can't

:26:56.:26:58.

travel, you can't go to see your mother. You make it sound as if they

:26:59.:27:04.

are being held hostage They are. If you return they will be freed? If

:27:05.:27:09.

that is true I will go now. If you can go with me I will go to it and

:27:10.:27:16.

get them. What is the physical condition of your daughters? You

:27:17.:27:27.

mean health wise? Very bad, one is anorexic, complaining from many,

:27:28.:27:33.

many things. I would like not to air what I know of her situation.

:27:34.:27:38.

Because I don't want to harm my own daughter. But she is in a bad

:27:39.:27:43.

health. And the other one is in bad health. The third, the second. And

:27:44.:27:51.

their mental condition? This is what psychologically they are not well.

:27:52.:28:05.

They are left out any treament He's the king, he has all the money to

:28:06.:28:19.

get the best doctors for those two girls. I don't know. We contacted

:28:20.:28:28.

the Saudi embassy about the allegations you just heard and we

:28:29.:28:32.

are extending an invitation for someone to appear on the programme

:28:33.:28:37.

or supply a statement. We were told the embassy doesn't comment on

:28:38.:28:39.

private matters and this is a private matter. There will be yet

:28:40.:28:43.

another meeting tomorrow as much of the western world bonders what it

:28:44.:28:46.

can do about the growing tensions between Russia and Ukraine. There is

:28:47.:28:51.

to be a referendum this weekend to determine whether the crime ma

:28:52.:28:58.

Crimea should stay in the Ukraine for go back to Russia. And David

:28:59.:29:02.

Cameron called it farcical. The Polish Foreign Minister was in the

:29:03.:29:07.

UK to meet William Hague to discuss their response to rising tensions

:29:08.:29:11.

today. Afterwards I asked him why Europe refuses to recognise the

:29:12.:29:16.

referendum? It is under gun point with the presence of foreign troops

:29:17.:29:22.

on Crimea's soil and without the regular electoral rolls, and without

:29:23.:29:26.

the supervision of international bodies. And in violation of

:29:27.:29:31.

Ukraine's constitution. But the definition of nationality is surely

:29:32.:29:36.

the wishes of the people, isn't it? Yes, but we all have constitutions.

:29:37.:29:40.

You are going to have a referendum in Scotland, but it is done by

:29:41.:29:45.

consensus, not by breaking existing law. Wouldn't you allow the

:29:46.:29:51.

possibility that there comes a point when national borders become

:29:52.:29:58.

incoherent? Well, that is exactly the principle at stake. I think

:29:59.:30:07.

after World War ll and the Cold War we have agreed in the international

:30:08.:30:13.

community that when there are ethnic disputes across national boundaries,

:30:14.:30:16.

we try to overcome the boundaries and fulfil the rights of citizens

:30:17.:30:21.

without changing boundaries by force. Which is how the Second World

:30:22.:30:25.

War started. You have done it in Ulster, it has been done all over

:30:26.:30:31.

Europe, and it can be done, provided you use institutions that we have

:30:32.:30:41.

created for those purposes. But it is -- but its international position

:30:42.:30:46.

has changed since the Second World War, but there is no reason it

:30:47.:30:52.

should change again? Ukraine has voluntarily given up nuclear

:30:53.:30:54.

weapons, and received guaranteed from the United States, UK and

:30:55.:31:01.

Russia of her independence. T viability of her borders and

:31:02.:31:06.

freedoms from pressures, for example trade boycotts. Think of what signal

:31:07.:31:13.

would be sent to places like North Korea and Iran of the value of our

:31:14.:31:21.

guarantees in return for dropping nuclear ambitions if we don't

:31:22.:31:25.

protect the territorial integrity of Ukraine. If the majority of people

:31:26.:31:31.

in Crimea say they wish to be part of Russia, who are we to deny that?

:31:32.:31:37.

If the majority of Crimea have an issue with the Ukrainian Government

:31:38.:31:45.

there are ways by the Ukrainian constitutions to do that. If they

:31:46.:31:49.

wanted more autonomy in Ukraine, I think that is something that the

:31:50.:31:53.

Ukrainian Government would consider. We are not talking about autonomy

:31:54.:31:57.

within Ukraine, we are talking about the wish to belong to another

:31:58.:32:04.

country? Well Britain has had those dilemmas before. And you have to be

:32:05.:32:07.

very careful how to handle it. If the majority of people in the

:32:08.:32:12.

Falkland Islands, for example, expressed a wish to become begin

:32:13.:32:19.

Argentinian, we should respect that? The Argentinians invaded and you

:32:20.:32:22.

sent a task force to take the islands back. Pause there are ways

:32:23.:32:27.

-- because there are ways of doing it by law and there are completely

:32:28.:32:31.

unacceptable ways. Because the majority of the people in the

:32:32.:32:35.

Falkland Islands resisted the invasion? We have no idea what the

:32:36.:32:40.

majority of the people of Crimea want, they have not been asked and

:32:41.:32:43.

it is unlikely they will be democratically asked. There is

:32:44.:32:47.

clearly a demand among some people in Crimea not to be part of Ukraine?

:32:48.:32:53.

There may be some, but there are ways that you can express that

:32:54.:32:57.

constitutionally. What better way of judging that than by holding a

:32:58.:33:02.

referendum? It can be done provided it is legal. Not at the point of a

:33:03.:33:08.

foreign gun. Supposing this referendum goes ahead, and it gives,

:33:09.:33:11.

you say it would be unfairly conducted and it gives a result you

:33:12.:33:21.

don't like. What then? Well, I think Russia will, the European Council

:33:22.:33:26.

has decided that there will be consequences, and we are all very

:33:27.:33:29.

reluctant about it. Because we all have commercial relationships with

:33:30.:33:35.

Russia, but the principle of not changing borders by force is an

:33:36.:33:42.

important one. And the European Council has decided that just like

:33:43.:33:47.

the United States Europe will impose a visa ban and asset freezes. Will

:33:48.:33:53.

they go any further than that? I think if Russia invaded mainland

:33:54.:33:59.

Ukraine they would go further. You would accept the invasion of Crimea?

:34:00.:34:03.

No the whole conversation is you trying to accept the invasion of

:34:04.:34:07.

Crimea. I don't understand why it is any business of our's in this

:34:08.:34:14.

country? Because you had leaders who said that these are far way

:34:15.:34:17.

countries of which we know little and we know how it ended. Thank you

:34:18.:34:24.

very much. Paul Brinkley served as the United States deputy under

:34:25.:34:29.

secretary of defence under both the Bush and Obama administrations and

:34:30.:34:32.

is here now. During the time when you were at the Department of

:34:33.:34:36.

Defence, did you ever envisage this sort of situation? In a way you know

:34:37.:34:41.

one of the things we are not talking very much about is what motivates

:34:42.:34:47.

perhaps people in Crimea to seek an alternative governing structure.

:34:48.:34:51.

What motivates people in the Ukraine who recently underwent these events

:34:52.:34:56.

in Kiev to seek an alternati governing structure. What I was

:34:57.:34:59.

personally involved with during those two administrations had to do

:35:00.:35:02.

with the economic underpinnings that lead to conditions that because

:35:03.:35:06.

these rifts to form in the first place. It is interesting if you look

:35:07.:35:10.

at Ukraine's economy, since the fall of the Iron Curtain, it has lagged

:35:11.:35:17.

every other post-Soviet era economy. 06% of the G -- 60% of the

:35:18.:35:21.

neighbouring countries per capita compared to other countries. And if

:35:22.:35:26.

you look at Crimea in the Ukraine you have the same statistical

:35:27.:35:31.

phenomenon. The average cry mean has relative income, 60% of the citizens

:35:32.:35:36.

of the Ukraine. It is interesting to me how the economic disparity in an

:35:37.:35:41.

age of information, when people see neighbouring countries and

:35:42.:35:44.

prosperity emerging in neighbouring countries, it creates a level of

:35:45.:35:48.

frustration that leads n my opinion, to these rifts. The rifts can be

:35:49.:35:53.

sectarian, as we see in the Middle East and central Asia, they can be

:35:54.:35:58.

ethnic, as we are seeing emerge in a place like Ukraine. At the root of

:35:59.:36:02.

them is an absence of economic development, and an access to

:36:03.:36:07.

opportunity, that a population feel seems fair relative to what its

:36:08.:36:11.

neighbours, or its international partners are experiencing. When you

:36:12.:36:14.

look at how the west is struggling to make sense of this and to

:36:15.:36:19.

determine how to respond and you look at the way in which President

:36:20.:36:24.

Obama was wrong-footed over Syria, then sites he has had here about

:36:25.:36:30.

what to d about Ukraine, what do you conclude about American power? I

:36:31.:36:32.

don't know that you conclude anything about American power, but I

:36:33.:36:38.

do think we are going through a period that I think will get more

:36:39.:36:42.

intense in the next few years. We spent a trillion dollars on the

:36:43.:36:45.

effort in Iraq, and the blood of thousands of our young men and

:36:46.:36:50.

women, and thousands and hundreds of British young men and women. A $700

:36:51.:36:58.

billion exercise in Afghanistan, not ending as well as we thought it

:36:59.:37:02.

would be. For us to be intropective on how we engage in foreign policy

:37:03.:37:06.

conflicts perhaps is not to be unexpected of our country. I think

:37:07.:37:11.

it is rational. And I think you also have to look at how we positioned

:37:12.:37:16.

ourselves as "the west", not just the United States but Europeans. In

:37:17.:37:19.

terms of strategic levers the Russians have significant strategic

:37:20.:37:23.

levers that are at play here. Whether they are energy plies

:37:24.:37:27.

supplies to Europe, and -- energy supplies to Europe and financial

:37:28.:37:30.

integration that has taken place and risks to both western and Russian

:37:31.:37:34.

economy that make it much, much more complex to react in the way we might

:37:35.:37:40.

have in years past. You raise Iraq and Afghanistan, what went wrong

:37:41.:37:44.

there? I think for us in Afghanistan, and we are seeing this

:37:45.:37:47.

play out. We have lost sight of something very important in the

:37:48.:37:51.

west. We believed that if we created democratic institutions that all

:37:52.:37:55.

good things would follow. I find this a loss of understanding of our

:37:56.:38:01.

own history in the rest. Democratic institutions were built on economic

:38:02.:38:04.

foundations, they created middle-class prosperity and gave

:38:05.:38:09.

citizenry a stake in those institutions. Afghan GDP today is

:38:10.:38:13.

minimal. The institutions we have worked so hard to establish are

:38:14.:38:17.

almost completely dependant on foreign aid today. I'm very

:38:18.:38:22.

concerned that as we draw down our presence in Afghanistan, and the

:38:23.:38:27.

international community disengaged, we have created a house of cards in

:38:28.:38:31.

Afghanistan because we have lost sight of the economic foundations

:38:32.:38:35.

that are so important. If we believe democratic institutions are

:38:36.:38:40.

desirable, we need to be equally as passionate about creating economic

:38:41.:38:43.

opportunity and a basis for the institutions to rest upon. I wonder

:38:44.:38:48.

what conclusion you draw about the par be a spring and American support

:38:49.:38:51.

for that? I think there is significant American support, but it

:38:52.:38:54.

is also struggling for all the reasons we have said, if you look at

:38:55.:38:58.

Egypt today. The number one problem is economic. You hear it across the

:38:59.:39:05.

piece. It is 80 million people, half very young, frustrated, no

:39:06.:39:08.

opportunity. What do you have that when you have that mix? You have

:39:09.:39:13.

unrest, you have civil discord, and democratic institutions are not

:39:14.:39:16.

sustainable in those circumstances. Those are complicated problems to

:39:17.:39:20.

solve and we struggle to solve them because they are not easy and they

:39:21.:39:25.

are country-specific. Every country has a set of human assets and

:39:26.:39:29.

natural resources that have to be assessed. To approach the problem as

:39:30.:39:34.

we have from the last deck taped, strictly militarily and in terms of

:39:35.:39:38.

the US engagments in the region, the jury is in. We can look at the

:39:39.:39:44.

results and see that adjustment to our foreign policy is overdue.

:39:45.:39:57.

Litarily and in terms of the US engagments in the region, the jury

:39:58.:40:00.

is in. We can look at the results and see that adjustment to our

:40:01.:40:02.

foreign policy is overdue. Do you think the foreign policy you were

:40:03.:40:05.

involved in was wrong? The roles replayed, businessmen who worked in

:40:06.:40:08.

Iraq, Pakistan, to begin to create economic opportunity. That was a

:40:09.:40:12.

very difficult slog, because within my Government institutionally those

:40:13.:40:18.

economic development activities are viewed as emerging from structural

:40:19.:40:23.

implementation of rule of law, democratic institutions. I think

:40:24.:40:27.

that's upside down. And I think we have learned painful lessons from

:40:28.:40:34.

this. Thank you. It is a serious and embarrassing condition which could

:40:35.:40:37.

affect any woman who gives birth. You may not have heard of it,

:40:38.:40:40.

because in a healthy country like our's, it can be avoided or treated

:40:41.:40:45.

quickly and effectively. Yet in the developing world an estimated two

:40:46.:40:52.

million people suffer from T it is called obstetric fistula, it leaves

:40:53.:40:58.

women constantly leaking urine or worse. The BBC's global health

:40:59.:41:04.

correspondent has been to central Uganda. You won't be surprised to

:41:05.:41:08.

learn that her report contains graphic images and details.

:41:09.:41:23.

Crowds are gathering to see local celebrities coming to town. These

:41:24.:41:30.

radio DJs broadcasting throughout the region are just the warm-up act

:41:31.:41:37.

though. The headliners are missionaries from the hospital, here

:41:38.:41:42.

to talk about a condition called obstetric fistula, it is where often

:41:43.:41:46.

younger, smaller mothers develop a hole in their bladder caused by

:41:47.:41:50.

their baby getting stuck in the birth canal during delivery. The

:41:51.:41:55.

woman is left leaking urine constantly. If they gave birth in a

:41:56.:42:00.

hospital rather than at home these problems could be avoided. Most

:42:01.:42:07.

women can't afford to. This community is being told there is a

:42:08.:42:11.

solution for a lucky few who have the condition. For the next two

:42:12.:42:16.

weeks doctors from the UK are offering free fistula repair

:42:17.:42:23.

surgery. Selina and her mum heard the radio show and have arrived at

:42:24.:42:28.

the hospital. She's 17 and in constant discomfort, her underwear

:42:29.:42:32.

stuffed with rags to avoid urine dripping down her legs. Whenever she

:42:33.:42:37.

leaves the house she takes plastic sheets with her. Her story is a

:42:38.:42:41.

particular one. She fell pregnant last year. TRANSLATION: I was at

:42:42.:42:47.

school when I met my boyfriend. He would come and buy me chicken and

:42:48.:42:52.

chips, I didn't know he wanted to get me pregnant. I loved him. She

:42:53.:42:59.

was in labour at home for three days before going to hospital, Sheehy

:43:00.:43:04.

vently delivered a baby girl, who died soon afterwards. TRANSLATION: I

:43:05.:43:14.

didn't even get to hold my baby or Herrera before she died. When I see

:43:15.:43:18.

other women carrying their babies I feel so sad. Her boyfriend left her

:43:19.:43:26.

after the birth, leaving her facing a bleak futureeir babies I feel so

:43:27.:43:36.

sad. Her boyfriend left her after the birth, leaving her facing a

:43:37.:43:39.

bleak future. Before her operation she wanted to show me where she

:43:40.:43:43.

lives. We made the 60km journey. When she arrived there was an

:43:44.:43:47.

unwelcome surprise. She thinks she has seen the man who got her

:43:48.:43:50.

pregnant. She's not sure if she wants to speak to him. I think she's

:43:51.:43:55.

feeling a bit shy. She's not sure what his reaction to her will be.

:43:56.:44:09.

Let's follow her and see what happens. Is he there. Are you

:44:10.:44:18.

feeling shy? Do you want to see him? That's him? Is that him in the white

:44:19.:44:26.

shirt? OK. Reluctantly her sheepish looking ex-boyfriend is dragged out

:44:27.:44:30.

of the house by one of the missionaries. She was very young

:44:31.:44:34.

wasn't she when you got her pregnant? Because you are 23, you

:44:35.:44:41.

are a lot older than her? TRANSLATION: He wasn't aware she was

:44:42.:44:55.

so young. You didn't know she was 16? John said he did his duty by

:44:56.:45:01.

paying for her hospital bills but the relationship is over. He's now

:45:02.:45:11.

one of the lads again. Selena is offered support by some of her

:45:12.:45:14.

neighbours, but she tells me later it is all a show for the cameras,

:45:15.:45:19.

and some of these girls actually usually torment her over her

:45:20.:45:28.

condition. She says her friends treat her so badly, when they see

:45:29.:45:34.

her they tell her she stinks, she's like rubbish to them, mostly she

:45:35.:45:39.

says at home. Back at her home, watching all of this unfold is

:45:40.:45:49.

Selena's mother and she's livid. TRANSLATION: She was so healthy. She

:45:50.:45:54.

would dress so smartly and whenever she walked in the village she was

:45:55.:45:58.

the envy of everyone. Now when I see her in this condition, and the man

:45:59.:46:03.

who did this to her is stood right there. Not even asking for my

:46:04.:46:07.

forgiveness, I feel so sad and angry. It is the first day of the

:46:08.:46:21.

free fistula repair camp at the hospital. An anxious Selena is first

:46:22.:46:26.

on the list. Here it is important to find creative ways of getting the

:46:27.:46:31.

job done. Like using a surgical glove as a town the question.

:46:32.:46:43.

Tourniquet. This is complex surgeries but they have found the

:46:44.:46:46.

problem here quickly. It is just at the edge, it is about a 4cm hole,

:46:47.:46:51.

you can actually see right into the bladder there. Can you see that.

:46:52.:46:55.

Shane Duffy and his team from Chelsea and Westminster hospital in

:46:56.:46:59.

London are training Ugandan doctors here so they can eventually take

:47:00.:47:04.

over. It is important to have it tension-free. The surgery has been a

:47:05.:47:10.

success, her mother hopes she will go back to school and get her life

:47:11.:47:14.

back. Selena is looking forward to hanging out with her friends again

:47:15.:47:20.

and one day having another baby. But there are 200,000 other women living

:47:21.:47:27.

in Uganda with this condition, with only a fraction lucky enough to get

:47:28.:47:31.

treatment. These women are hoping they will be seen by the UK team

:47:32.:47:34.

before they have to leave. But there are too many to treat everyone. Many

:47:35.:47:42.

more will be left waiting, facing a lifetime of rejection, shame and

:47:43.:47:50.

humiliation. That's all for tonight. The decision of the Globe Theatre to

:47:51.:47:56.

perform Hamlet in North Korea hasn't been greeted with universal approval

:47:57.:47:59.

by human rights campaigners today. Not that the vast majority of the

:48:00.:48:03.

population will be able to see it, let alone understand western actors

:48:04.:48:10.

performing in English. We have an actor here to show us how Korean

:48:11.:48:19.

Hamlet should be done. With act two, seen two. (She speaks in Korean) #6

:48:20.:49:22.

Our weather has taken a turner dryer. A touch of frost, patchy fog

:49:23.:49:23.

In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines with Jeremy Paxman, including the postcode lottery of tackling domestic violence, the situation in Ukraine, childbirth in Uganda, the Saudi King's ex-wife and how can an airplane just disappear?


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