12/03/2014 Newsnight

precious little about it. Three years on from the start of the

Syrian Civil War, the greatest humanitarian crisis on earth just

gets worse. Listen to the former Foreign Secretary. What I think this

has become is the defining collective failure of this century

so far. Also tonight, we talk to the former England defender, Sol

Campbell about whether today's footballers are vain, overpaid

pre-Madonnas. We return to Baghdad to see if there is a chance of peace

breaking out. This is where Al-Qaeda flooded into the city in 2006 and

declared it a liberated zone. That sparked a huge fight. They may look

noble and grazeful, but is the life of a horse really so precious. Three

years ago this week a group of citizens in Syria decided they

weren't prepared to put up with a dictator any longer. They had seen

other regimes topple to the Arab Spring, but the Syrians weren't so

fortunate. President Assad unleashed his army and soon there was full

scale Civil War. The dead numbing to many thousands and displaced into

millions, and diplomatic pressure for Russia to abandon its nasty

little ally has failed. David Miliband now runs the International

Rescue committee, we have been talking to him about the lessons to

be learned. How did this become this? Syria is

the crisis of our generation. Over 100,000 dead, half the country

forced from its home, and hardest to believe, a crisis now entering its

fourth year. Did you ever think that we would be in something this bad

for this long? No. If I had been here with you three years ago and

have said nine million people displaced from their homes, three

million in neighbouring countries, 130,000 dead, 1500 kids assassinated

by snipers and victims of Government prisons, you would have said there

will be an overwhelming outcry and it wouldn't be acceptable in the

21st century. I think it is terrible we have reached this stage,

seemingly a war without limit and end and law. Every day, as we are

doing this interview international humanitarian law is being broken and

the progress of certainly the last 60 years since the Second World War,

in establishing norms of war that protect civilians is being rolled

back. Why do you think it has been, in your words "acceptable"? I think

what has happened is the political divisions between the great powers

and the regional powers, between Russia and the US and Iran and Saudi

Arabia, those political divisions have infected the humanitarian

dialogue. I have to be very, very careful about the extent to which I

can speculate about the wisdom or otherwise of military engagment.

What I think this has become is the defining collective failure of this

century so far. We all remember Rwanda over the 1990s, we remember

Bosnia, the cities of Syria, the Aleppos, the Homs, will go down

against the Sarajevos in a terrible litany. One of the greatest blocks

to intervention has been Russia, in the form of a leader who has not

relinquished power for nearly 15 years, indeed has been exerting it

in the Ukraine as we speak. Looking back, did they have too strong a

hand? I think they made a bet that has proved to be correct, which is

that President Assad had more going for him than many thought. They bet

that he wouldn't fall in the way that President Mubarak did and they

proved to be right. Has the USA others -- and others been too supine

on this? The attack and narrative in America is that President Obama has

been too weak. I see something different. There isn't a military

response in the Crimea, and if you mean by "strong" he should have had

a military response in crime ma, no-one would seriously say that.

What I see is something different, not a strong-week speck -- a

strong-weak spectrum, but a fragmented international community.

Future generations might not take this idea of fragmentation, they

will say why was Russia so readily indulged for so long? I don't think

it is indulgence is the right thing, there is a lot of fury, the question

is, the point about the fragmentation is it is only economic

unity that actually is the root to pressure. The thing about dealing

with and working with the Russian Government is that they want

respect, but they respect strength. If it is all about the economy

stupid, and hitting Russia where it hurts, how are we doing on sanctions

here? He offers a stark warning to this Government? There is a danger

that people want a quick fix. And there isn't a quick fix. This is a

long game. One of my reflections on being in the states, looking back

here, and thinking about American politics is that the premium on

short-term economics can drive out the long-term political strategy.

Where as actually what you need is a long-term economic strategy to back

the long-term political strategy. When it was made clear that David

Cameron said he wouldn't hit Russians, for example, in the City

of London? Well it is not my place to say, when I talked about

fragmentation of the international response, if every country is just

thinking how do we defend our own patch, not how are we going to unify

so that we're presenting a common front, then obviously it is much

more difficult to be taken seriously. Should military

intervention happen in Syria, as it did in Iraq under the Government in

which he served? He's loathe to say. But when I ask him why he thinks it

never happened, the answer is stark. It is obvious there is a post-Iraq,

post-Afghanistan, and post-financial crisis situation in western

countries, where the limits of military power have been widely

demonstrated. The economic constraints, the economic austerity

is very clear and, look, the phrase that is used in America is "nation

building at home". Limits of military power means Iraq and

Afghanistan didn't work? I see all of this now through the lens of the

work we do. We work in 3,800 Afghan villages and we have just done a

survey of our staff and the people who they work with. What they tell

me is they are worried that the gains they have made won't be

preserved. I'm being told to wrap, but on the day the leader of the

opposition, yes his brother, is making a speech on Europe, ruling

out a referendum in 2017 it seems rude to go without asking what he

thinks of it? I think it is sensible. Because Britain has a

recovery to build and the central task for the next Government is

obviously to build that recovery and the idea that half way through the

parliament there would be a referendum, I don't think that many

people 2017, when you have a German and French election, I think what he

has done is sensible and statesman-like and really right.

Let's talk about Syria now, Baroness Amos is in charge of humanitarian

affairs at the UN. She has taken an active role in the European

humanitarian response to the crisis. The world looks to you for hope, I

suppose, why can't you deliver it? For a whole variety of reasons. It

is something that I think about every day. Because I think the world

looks to the U and expects the United Nations to solve problems.

But we also forget that the United Nations is made up of all the

different countries of the world, so all the differences that those

countries have, they bring to the United Nations and the table. We see

it being played out in Syria. If you are trying to formulate a

humanitarian response though, it must be incredibly frustrating to

find that the wheels of diplomacy grind so incredibly slowly. It was

three years this has been going on? I think what's really frustrating

for us on the humanitarian side is of course we know that the wheels of

diplomacy, trying to find a political solution can be slow. But

on the humanitarian side where you have people dying every day, we have

seen those terrible pictures coming out of Yamouk and other parts of

Syria. You have got millions of people displaced, it is almost as if

people have become numb by the numbers. Over nine million people

inside Syria needing help. It is the size of a small country in Europe.

So the frustrating thing is that should not be political, that should

not be politicised, helping people, getting aid in, there are rules that

we have which should be applied when there is a conflict. You know,

ordinary children, women, men, shouldn't be used in a conflict like

this to make sure that it is sustained and it goes on and that's

the thing we find most frustrating that we can't get to the people who

need help. That it's over a year that over two million people have

not had medical aid, food, things like that. I think it is an absolute

scandal. Are both sides using this humanitarian aid question to

political ends, or can you apportion blame? Well yes, the different sides

are, but I do think you have to look at the numbers. When I say that you

have got two-and-a-half million people in what we call

hard-to-reach-place, we may have got to those places once. But there are

about 240,000 people in places we called "besieged", for example we

have not been able to get in with aid and they have not been able to

get out. The majority of those people are in areas controlled by

Government. So it is very hard to say that there is an equivalence

when you look at the numbers, but all of the different sides, the

different opposition groups as well as the Government use this tactic,

sieging communities as a kind of weapon of war. How long could it go

on? Well, it has gone on for three years, we're no nearer finding a

political solution, the numbers have grown and grown and grown. I first

went to Syria two years ago. I went to Homs, I saw the destruction in an

area called Baba Ama, it has been repeated many times since. Then we

were talking about a million people needing help. Now it is over nine

million. I suppose we can watch collectively the destruction of an

entire country over many more years, unless we get more courage from the

international community and unless we find a way of finding a political

solution. But both sides are just callous in this matter? Oh, if you

look at the human rights abuses that you are seeing, spread across the

country, absolutely. Now in a fit of large guess, Vince Cable

conenvironmneted today that the national minimum wage will rise

above the rate of inflation. It adds up to 19p extra an hour. Mind you

people have been getting poorer for the last several years as the wage

went up by less than the rate of inflation. Valuable ammunition for

the Labour Party in its cost of living campaign. Hard to recall now

that when it was proposed the minimum wage was a controversial

idea. Tomorrow the Resolution Foundation releases a report

authored by the minimum wage's architect, which examines whether it

is still fit for purpose. People, production and pay, cogs in

our economic machine. 15 years ago a new component, a minimum wage was

plumbed in, now it is not running as smoothly as it should. From October

it is ?6. 50 an hour, a 40-hour week means ?13,000 a year, after tax and

national insurance that is take home of ?231 a week. Katie gets up at

four. 45am to go to work cleaning Government offices. After rent,

bills and transport, just living, ?6. 54 is not enough to make ends

meet. It is impossible, we spend the money in three or four days, you

work hard and you can have a good life, always you need to think about

what you are going to do with every penny. And the rate was designed to

be the bare minimum, not the benchmark for millions. 1. 2 million

are on the actual wage. Another 1. 4 within 50p. But there are five

million on low pay under the international definition around ?7.

70. Look at this, that spike shows more and more of our wages clustered

around the minimum level. When the minimum wage was introduced, it was

intended very much as a red line that would never be crossed. What

has happened is the ripple effects have been smaller than everyone

thought and employers have treated it as going rate, and they take it

as a guide to what they should be paying. Why should business fix

that? Pay any more than they have to? The inventor of the minimum wage

wants firms to cough up a higher rate for London. And a new

Government target to pull more workers out of low pay. Most

controversially the architect of the minimum wage wants the authorities

to point the finger at employers who could afford to pay more but choose

not to. The idea to name and shame business into raising wages, but is

that realistic or even fair. Like thousands of businesses, this food

distributor doesn't just have spare cash lying around. More rules, more

complication, there is very tight margins in the profit we make. It is

very big competition. Obviously the more wages are going up, the margin

goes lower and the customer always wants to pay less. Ministers want

the minimum wage eventually to regain the value it lost in the

downturn, the idea that started as temporary has survived and become a

permanent part of our economy. But it hasn't removed the trap of low

pay for millions. It may be broke, but it is not straight forward how

to fix it. Well Sir Jamie Bain, the architect of the minimum wage when

it was introduced is in the Belfast studio now. Did you expect it to

last this long Sir George? I don't think I did, when it came in 1998 we

made a recommendation, it was simply set up for a year, and I'm quite

surprised but delighted that 15 years later it is there. Even more

delighted that all political parties now accept it and indeed want it

increased. Has it achieved what you hoped? It has achieved a good deal

what I hoped. It has abolished extreme low pay. Usually that is

defined as being half the median. Something below about ?5. 75 an

hour. When it came in about a third of labour force was in this

position. Today it is about 7%. So it has abolished extreme low pay but

not low pay. The problem now is the people as your commentary suggested

who are on the minimum wage and as the commentary suggested there is a

spike there. But who are way below the two thirds median, ?7. 7.71 an

hour, which is Antarth national definition of low pay. It is that

group which we failed to do anything for. The medium low paid, if you

like, not the extreme low paid. And indeed inequality has got worse

since it came? Inequality has got worse. Anybody who is concerned

about the stability of society, of course this is not just true in the

UK, it is true pretty much across the western world. Those at the top

of the income distribution, one always mentions bankers, of course,

but there is lots of others. They have done very much better. The

rewards of globalisation seem to be going to them. But penalising those

at the bottom. I think it is pretty clear from evidence that societies

that are more egalitarian tend to do more than those who have quite

marked and in some ways these days quite obscene differences in the

ratio of high pay to low pay. These consequences that you are talking

about, maybe they are collateral consequences of what happened. They

don't make you think maybe this minimum wage is just too much of a

blunt instrument? It is too much of a blunt instrument, that's exactly

the problem. I mean the metaphor I like to use is that of a garment, in

fact the metaphor is quite a good one, because the tailoring trade is

one of the low paid areas. And since it is a single rate and you have to

set it, so that it doesn't cause mass unemployment. A hence it has to

be set relatively low. If you set it say at the living wage, which some

people argue, which is you know about ?7. 65 an hour, you would

cause massive unemployment in areas like retail, clothing, social care

for elderly people, and so on. Yet, on the other hand, there is a whole

range of sectors, there is only about five sectors where this is

true. There is a whole range of sectors where you could actually

easily afford to pay more than the minimum wage as it is set. There is

something to be said, and that is what we are saying, for having it

varied. First of all, not by region, but we have a long tradition in the

UK as treating London as a special case. We think there is a special

case for London to have a higher national minimum. We also think

there is a special case for publishing after the low-pay

commission has done its research and homework a right that particular

sector, other than those at the very bottom, could afford to pay. An

indication of that rate. Thank you very much for joining us. The former

England footballer Sol Campbell is standing by his claim of racial

discrimination. He said if he hadn't been black he might have been

captain of England. Far more than the three occasions in a teyear

career that it did occur. Other players, including black players are

saying he's talking nonsense to sell his autobuy off fee. Is he? --

biography. Let's look back at some of the career highs and lows. In a

sport that has cheapened hatred like no other, few players have sparked

such extreme emotion as Sol Campbell. Football knows no transfer

than a sensational one, but when in 2001, Campbell, then captain of

Spurs, defected four miles down the road to play for Arsenal, the sport

held its breath. In And with good reason, Campbell's return to his old

ground yielded almost unparalleled abuse from those who had once adored

him. For no other reason and deciding to change jobs, Sol

Campbell had become one of the game's most controversial players.

If the abuse was hurting, it didn't appear to show. Campbell was to star

as his new club won repeated trophies. For the England national

side he was a could loss giant, playing in six major tournamentings.

He was a complex character. It was at half time in this game that he

asked to be substituted before driving away from the ground while

the game continued, and heading for Brussels. What was going on in his

mind? In retirement his focus has turned to the racism he sees in the

sport. Sol Campbell is here now. If this sport was institutionally

racist you wouldn't have done as well as you have done, would you?

I'm not saying that, all I'm saying is when my book is a reflection of

what I have been through and how I see football. It is my side of the

storyCEDYELLOW I'm not saying that, all I'm saying is when my book is a

reflection of what I have been through and how I see football. It

is my side of the story. It is how I see football. When you see Paul Ince

and others occupying the role of captain, it doesn't seem to be true

this allegation against black players? For me personally, if I

look at it, if I was say white, I would have captained my country more

than three times for sure. There are extracts, the ten-year thing, that

was blown out. I'm saying I would have captained more times over ten

years. But it is, that is my take on it. It is possible, of course, they

just didn't make you captain more often because they judged you were

not psychologically best-suited to that job? I disagree on that because

I have captained my club at a young age at Tottenham. I have easily

captained Arsenal. I captained Portsmouth to FA Cup victory. All

those problems which happened later on, that was when I was 31, I'm

talking about mid-20s. You are absolutely convinced of this are

you? I think it is not as blatant, and not institutional, but for me it

is almost like a subconscious kind of thing. If I give you examples

there was a sports committee set up by the FA I was saying well the BBC

actually came to me and said who is on here. I have looked on there,

there is one thing which sticks out to me, there was no-one of black

origin on there, that is why the BBC came to me and asked me to say

something about it. Then the committee is already set, I have

said something on TV, obviously it is retracted and Rio Ferdinand is on

there saying it was not really completed. But for me it is almost

why would you want to do that if you want to make a statement. You would

actually put someone, if you want a forward-thinking kind of FA you

would put something black in the beginning and put the rest of the

committee on there. It is almost like backtracking, it is a very

delayed reaction. Can we talk a little bit about the world of the

professional football player. Jose Mourinho said the other day they

were vain, overpaid celebrity-obsessed, is that a

picture you recognise? I don't think they are all vain and overpaid, I

think it is horses for courses. Every club has their level. There

will only be certain clubs able to pay the vast sums, and those players

some of them are worth it, because it is a ten-year career. But,

footballers are, they work hard, they are under pressure, it is a

business, it is an entertainment business. As I said every club has

their level. You would advise a young man with the talent to go into

the world? The beautiful thing about football is talent always comes

through. You also have to deal with the sort of publish that the fans

will sometimes shout at you, if, as in your case, they get the wrong

idea? I don't mean the wrong idea do I, who cares what your sexual

orientation is, why is that a cause for abuse? My abuse was many things,

it was homophobic, it was racial, I have had everything as a black man

growing up. And a young black man growing up in football. I always

looked beyond that and I said to myself football is going to be the

number one for me. And I will not allow those kinds of comments or

that type of attitude towards me or abuse as I had as an early young boy

starting out in Tottenham stopped me from living my dream.

Would you give different advice to a young black man as to a youngs white

man? No. As I said before talent will always take you through into

football. That is the beautiful thing about football and most

sports. All lent will always shine through and take you as far as you

want to go. Thank you very much. As we saw earlier the west's

inability or unwillingness to get involved in Syria reflects a mood in

western capitals that is itself greatly influenced by other foreign

adventures, most obviously is the intervention in Iraq, for by 179

British servicemen and women gave their lives, along with thousands of

Americans and others. It is now nearly three years since that

operation finished. But if it was supposed to bring peace and

prosperity, it wasn't a great success, at least 1500 people have

already been killed in violence there this year. We have been in and

out of troubled areas for Iraq, our correspondent has just been back to

Durra, once dubbed the most dangerous place in Iraq. Let's see

what has been achieved? In Baghdad these days several neighbourhoods

are particularly tense, the police patrol with caution. They are

enclaves where Sunnis live, in a city that not long ago lived through

a nightmare of sectarian violence. And now the fear is it could happen

again. We didn't get into Fallujah because they are in state of open

revolt. This part of Baghdad, Durra, it is a particularly interesting

place now to look at the tension between the Sunni community. This is

where Al-Qaeda flooded into the outskirts of the city in 2006 and

declared it a liberated zone. That sparked a huge fight. The first

Newsnight film in Dura was made seven years ago. When violence was

at its height. The Americans sent troops into the market to turn the

situation round and they came under constant attack. It's time to rock

'n' roll. To reach Dura you cross the Tigris, south of central

Baghdad. These days the Americans are long gone. And the area is

surrounded by police checkpoints. Since Shi'ites dominate the force

that means many Sunnis feel besieged. The atmosphere of

normality that took years to achieve is now threatened. Dura is famous

for its sprawling markets, you can buy everything, from river carp to

spices, dresses or even televisions. The great metric here for the

Americans of their success always was how many shops were opening. In

the darkest moment of what was happening in 2006 it went down to a

couple of dozen. Then they got it up to a few hundred, then a year ago

there was said to be 20,000 stall holders this market. It really is

one of the biggest in Baghdad. But now, as a result of what has

happened in the last few months, some of them have started getting

into financial trouble again and some of the stalls have closed. It

was here on Christmas Day that a series of bombs killed 26 people and

shattered the peace. Were the bombs aimed at local Christians or the

Sunnis who are Dura's majority, or simply that nobody knew. They

traumatised this community. Is TRANSLATION: There were wounded and

injured people, I don't remember how many wounded and lots of martyrs.

There were dead shopkeepers, there was happen. Hasim and his son,

Gasham and his mother passing by, God have mercy on them. I cam across

bodies from my area, ten of them. We really hope it will get better, the

situation generally in Baghdad is now getting worse, because these

incidents, carried out by gangs in Anbar province and others are felt

by Baghdad. We're able to drop in on old friends, people we met making

our three previous Dura films. This is an architect Tariq. I would not

go to a very congested area with people. Because I don't know when

the bombing will start. You can pay $100 to somebody to plant one of

these bombs. He would be pleased to spend it on drinks or other things,

they don't care. They are Iraqi citizens or Iraqi people and they

have no value. If he lives or dies. They lost their value. We don't have

the sense of citizenship as you have in the UK and Europe. Dura today is

a more prosperous place than when the Americans were here. They

started the turn around, and the Iraqi Government consolidated it. So

why are things going wrong now. Measures that brought peace have

been reversed. Tell him soon the SOI will be paid by the national police

and not the US at all. On previous visits we saw how the Americans

formed a Sunni militia, the awakening forces, hundreds signed up

for it, many former insurgents. They put walls in to separate Dura from

neighboing Shi'ite communities. They got on top of Al-Qaeda but never

fully killed it off. Is Al-Qaeda finished here or could they come

back? Come back, no, no, no. No turning back, no. Finished 100%? No,

maybe 90% he said. For the Sheikh, leading a Sunni militia, paid by the

Americans, it was bound to be dangerous work. What happened to

Sheikh Ali is a couple of years after we spoke to him he was

murdered as he left the mosque here where he was Iman. By people from

Al-Qaeda. And the Awakening Forces were gradually ground down. And on

the one side they were attacked by Al-Qaeda extremists within their own

Sunni community t on the other hand the Government turned its back on

them, paid off most of them and let them go. Putting in their place

uniformed police forces from outside the area to try to ensure security

instead. But that link with the community had been broken. Today the

walls remain around mosques, police stations and in a couple of other

places. Elsewhere they are gone. And critically Iraq's Shi'ite-dominated

Government want theed Sunni approximately ligsia to wither. Once

several hundred in Dura, it is now a few dozen. We called in on the

commander, when we met him in 2 OK 00 -- in 2008, he predicted the

forces would be squeezed and the police would suffer and now says I

told you so. TRANSLATION: We were hoping they could become police in

their neighbourhoods, that would have been best, they could have

controlled the areas and no incidents could have occurred. These

days Iraqis are gearing up for election, the Prime Minister's pitch

for relax rests on security. Major General Catum admits there are

problems in provinces like Anbar, he insists insurgency does not return

to Baghdad. TRANSLATION: No, the information we have is that people

have started to look towards the elections and absolutely won't

accept such acts. The state has begun to strengthen and people also

have more self-confidence after experiencing explosions and harm

from Al-Qaeda and criminals. But today combat has broken out in

western Iraqi cities like Fallujah. Groups linked to Al-Qaeda battle the

army there. In Baghdad Sunni opposition is underground, but

recent bombings have stoked public fear. It is felt in Dura, in places

like the central kindergarten school. We filmed Leyla, McMahon

Leyla, as the kids call her, back to times when pupils had to talk past

bodies to get to school. Things have got better, but now she worries not

only will elections do nothing to help her community, but they will

trigger more violence. TRANSLATION: Security is the most

important thing for people, in the period of security we did have, you

saw for yourself that development took place, people felt safe and

went out in the street, they went to work. Now many are leaving their

homes in dangerous a a -- areas, in Fallujah they have left, people are

afraid in our neighbourhood, they don't know what will happen. As the

day's trading end, Dura's famous market empties. To be guarded by the

only member of the local militia we saw in days here. The deserted

market remind us what things used to be like in darker times Knowing the

potential for violence of these people here, the way it is policed

and the strong sense of kinship between the people in Dura and the

west, which is in open revolt. They are lucky not to have more trouble

here already. Already Baghdad is facing a new wave of bombings and

assassinations. As April's elections approach, the city is braced for the

train of sectarian and political violence to gather pace. Animal

rights activists have had steam coming out of their ears all day,

after a comment by Ruby Walsh about the death of a horse at Cheltenham.

The Daily Mail reported him saying you can replace a horse but not a

human being. They claim it shows callousness. Famously there are more

horses' ars th horses. Maybe Ruby Walsh is one of them. Can there be

equivalence between a human and animal. With us to discuss is the

editor of horse and hound, and a problem horse trainer. ? That is

very badly written, you are trainer of problem horses? Yes. Do you

understand why there is all this kerfuffle about what Ruby Walsh

said? I can understand, and I would like to see the whole interview and

speak to him about what was actually said. I know from my experience

jockies have to have a relationship with a horse in order to get that

last little per cent that takes them across the line first. So you know

AP McCoy, I read a piece in the Times last Sunday cried when

Synchronised got killed at Aintree. They do have a huge connection with

their horses. Are you surprised by the Kerr roughly? I think he was

responding that whenever it is Aintree or Cheltenham, these animal

rights activists and types of organisations come out waiting for

any event, any ill-advised comment, any horse fatality that they can go

from that, responding to that for racing. He will have a huge

relationship with the horses he rides, we don't just get another one

out of the drawer, that is not what he meant. There is clearly a

difference between a horse and human being? Absolutely. Horses are

wonderfully intelligent and emotional teachers. They do have

emotions, they recognise patterns and learn to do incredibly clever

things. I don't think they have a sense of their mortality like a

human being. They are not as intelligent as us but wonderful

creatures. In shorthand people talk about you as a "horse whisperer" do

horses have their own mentality? They are much greater than people

think they are. In my work I tap into the fact that they do

understand our emotions and... They understand our emotions? Yeah they

do, I think they are constantly scanning us to see if we are friend

or foe, and they are really good at seeing what our intention is from

our heart. It sounds whacky, I'm not. You sound a bit whacky to me!

The thing with it is if you go into work with a horse with the wrong

intention, they know you are not absolutely there 1% 00% there to

help them. I have had -- I have to think about my approach to them in

certain circumstances and make sure it's picked up on. If I look like

any other trainer or appear to approach in way that any other

trainer who has given them grief in the past, it won't work. I have to

be really sensitive to them and they open up and are sensitive to me.

Clearly we regard horses differently to the way we regard the vast

majority of animals. Yes, the Englishman particularly always had a

wonderful relationship with the horse. We have farmed with them,

fought with them, had fun with them and idolised them. We invest crazy

amounts of money. We are the only magazine in Europe, I think, we are

the only country that can sustain a weekly horse magazine. So we do

regard them differently to other animals, but they are not quite pets

or livestock, they are somewhere inbetween. They are to some people

pets. That is why they are special, when Jonathan Swift is looking for a

dignified, thoughtful, wise animal, he thinks of the horse. It is

interesting this, isn't it. I see them, they have a job to do, and we

have a job to do. My thing is meeting in the middle. They have

their part of the job to do and I have my part and together, we are

the jockeys, together they win the race. The better the horse does the

more the jockey gets out of the horse, the better it is for his

career. It is a collaboration. Given your sympathy, what do you

make of an accident of the kind that killed this horse, and two today

were killed? When I drive along the road to go and visit a horse

somewhere in the country there might be a fatality on the road. Somebody

driving to go and do their job. In part it is par for the course.

People get killed and on the way to work and stuff happens. We have to

get out there and do it. A horse doesn't have to get out there and

race? Horses get a good deal, I work eight or nine hours a day to pay my

bills. Horses work an hour-and-a-half to pay its way. The

horses in Cheltenham have elected to do it, horses that don't like

chasing or jumping don't get there. They are to some degree

self-selecting, you can't make a horse do anything. Some horses like

to do it and excel. What do you think when you get a tragedy like

this? It is awful and sad and horrible. I accept it is a risk and

not a cruel sport, just skiing down -- going down that straight. Thank

you. Some of the front pages, the Mirror has a photograph from a

Chinese satellite with what may be wreckage from the missing Malaysian

plane. The Times alleges that the particular type of aircraft

involved, this particular model of the 777 had been said to have some

cracks reported earlier. That's all from us tonight, if you

are desperate for some more escapism before you go to bed, you might want

to take a look at some of the winners of the Gaming BAFTAs, the

strategy award went to Nigel Farage's favourite game that puts

you in the shoes of an immigration inspector, deciding who to let

through. Good night. A cold night out there, fog around.

It could be an issue by morning time across England and Wales,

particularly low-lying areas, watch out for