Browse content similar to 14/03/2014. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Not many politicians have followers so devoted that they take their | :00:00. | :00:11. | |
name, to one generation the begin nights were the hard -- the Bennites | :00:12. | :00:20. | |
were the ones that split Labour. But to others the people with the | :00:21. | :00:24. | |
courage to stand up with the poor and powerless. Who was the real | :00:25. | :00:37. | |
Anthony Wedgwood Benn. We're here to start a new political movement. I we | :00:38. | :00:41. | |
talk to Denis Healey, the man who stopped his rise to power. In my | :00:42. | :00:49. | |
view he was an artificial lefty. An artificial lefty? I think he was | :00:50. | :00:53. | |
trying to prove he was working-class. He was very ashamed | :00:54. | :00:55. | |
of his upper-class background really. So will he be remembered for | :00:56. | :01:00. | |
dripping poison into his party or all that's best of British? In | :01:01. | :01:06. | |
Crimea they prepare for the referendum on leaving Ukraine and | :01:07. | :01:10. | |
joining Russia. But is the vote just a prelude to a greater conflict. | :01:11. | :01:18. | |
This is battle of wills that the Russians intend to win, starting | :01:19. | :01:24. | |
with that referendum here on Sunday. And this. Back in the old days it | :01:25. | :01:27. | |
would take a whole lifetime to destroy the reputation of a | :01:28. | :01:33. | |
politician or banker. But now, as we know, someone just hits send and it | :01:34. | :01:39. | |
can happen overnight. Playwright David Hare turns his fire on the | :01:40. | :01:43. | |
books. We talk to the man who has delighted and challenged audiences | :01:44. | :01:57. | |
from stage left. Tony Benn, who died aged 88 believed with words | :01:58. | :02:00. | |
parliament had tamed kings, restrained tyrants and averted | :02:01. | :02:04. | |
revolution. Yet with his own golden tongue he entertained and infuriated | :02:05. | :02:09. | |
in equal measure. Arguably he helped split the Labour Party in the 1980s. | :02:10. | :02:13. | |
Although he had been on the Government payroll as a minister, he | :02:14. | :02:17. | |
came to believe there wasn't much point in just improving the system. | :02:18. | :02:22. | |
Instead it had to be transforeign minister all -- transformed all | :02:23. | :02:26. | |
together. Despite his profile and popularity, achieving that kind of | :02:27. | :02:37. | |
change alluded him. Tony Benn, not a wide-eyed trot, but a very English | :02:38. | :02:49. | |
phenomenon. English phenomenon. There are many who fit the cliche, | :02:50. | :02:53. | |
socialist when young, capitalist with age. Tony Benn properly bucked | :02:54. | :02:57. | |
the trend. He was a towering figure within the Labour Party, serving as | :02:58. | :03:01. | |
an MP for more than half a century. The British public have been | :03:02. | :03:04. | |
awakened, not just on the mining industry, but to the whole rotten | :03:05. | :03:10. | |
philosophy of the 1980s, that it is all about cash and you bring in a | :03:11. | :03:15. | |
chartered accountant andest tells you what to do. It isn't about that, | :03:16. | :03:19. | |
it is about whether our society puts people in a place of dignity and | :03:20. | :03:23. | |
service them or whether you just hand over your money to gamblers who | :03:24. | :03:30. | |
don't create any wealth at all. It was the appeal he had outside | :03:31. | :03:33. | |
parliament that really captured his achievements. He came to | :03:34. | :03:38. | |
Glastonbury, he even appeared with Ali G. Come on you are not living in | :03:39. | :03:42. | |
the real world, you are living in a world where everybody is so bloody | :03:43. | :03:45. | |
greedy that there is no hope of building a better society and that's | :03:46. | :03:47. | |
why we are in a mess. Fool you! Tony Benn constantly questioned | :03:48. | :04:04. | |
where power came from? And how it was used. Passionate and articulate, | :04:05. | :04:09. | |
with a clipped tones and pronounced vowells even after he relinquished | :04:10. | :04:15. | |
his title, Sir Anthony Wedgwood Ben, there was no descent into mockney to | :04:16. | :04:21. | |
prove he was a man of the people. This is a matter that would have to | :04:22. | :04:25. | |
be decided by Bristol. I'm a servant of the people of the Bristol. They | :04:26. | :04:28. | |
have to decide if they wanted me. I'm a member of the Labour Party, so | :04:29. | :04:31. | |
the Labour leaders would have to be brought into such a discussion. | :04:32. | :04:40. | |
To the generations who came after him, he appealed as a true | :04:41. | :04:46. | |
conviction politician. When he took to the stump, campaigning against | :04:47. | :04:52. | |
the Iraq War, millions listened. We are here today to found a new | :04:53. | :05:00. | |
political movement worldwide. The biggest demonstration ever in | :05:01. | :05:06. | |
Britain, the first global demonstration and its first cause is | :05:07. | :05:13. | |
to prevent a war against Iraq. And yet many within his own party will | :05:14. | :05:17. | |
remember him as a truly devisive figure. He served as Secretary of | :05:18. | :05:21. | |
State in the Wilson and Callaghan Governments, but it was after Labour | :05:22. | :05:26. | |
was ousted in 1979 that things got bitter. Every day I'm getting more | :05:27. | :05:30. | |
messages, and I think the reason is very clear. People want the next | :05:31. | :05:34. | |
Labour Government to do what it says it will do. He waged a destructive | :05:35. | :05:40. | |
battle as the champion of the left against Denis Healey, for the deputy | :05:41. | :05:45. | |
leadership of the party. Ultimately he lost. Tony Benn, 49. 574. Denis | :05:46. | :05:58. | |
Healey 50. 426. While his conviction was dedoubtable, his failure to | :05:59. | :06:01. | |
compromise and his manoeuvrings were also seen as flaws. | :06:02. | :06:20. | |
He eventually left parliament to, in his words, concentrate on politics, | :06:21. | :06:27. | |
he was a prolific diary writer and deeply thoughtful man. Happy to | :06:28. | :06:31. | |
admit he had the kind of self-doubt that often led him to question his | :06:32. | :06:36. | |
decisions. I think anyone has to be self-critical if they are going to | :06:37. | :06:39. | |
make sense of their own experience and opinions. And I often ask myself | :06:40. | :06:44. | |
am I right about this, am I wrong about it? | :06:45. | :06:53. | |
What of the Labour of then, and the Labour of now? On a personal level | :06:54. | :06:59. | |
he knew Ed Miliband has family friend, today the leader of the | :07:00. | :07:02. | |
opposition described him as a champion of the powerless. The thing | :07:03. | :07:07. | |
about Tony Benn is you always knew what he stood for and who he stood | :07:08. | :07:10. | |
up for. And I think that's why he was admired right across the | :07:11. | :07:15. | |
political spectrum. Today those who felt his to be the "wrong sort of | :07:16. | :07:20. | |
Labour" may stay silent. But there are some on the left who see Tony | :07:21. | :07:24. | |
Benn not just as iconic, but as prophetic. His politics were not | :07:25. | :07:29. | |
always easy to swallow. But they were consistent, provocative and to | :07:30. | :07:38. | |
many inspiring. As Emily suggested, Tony Benn's most devisive battle was | :07:39. | :07:41. | |
perhaps with the former Labour Chancellor, Lord Healey, now 96 | :07:42. | :07:45. | |
years old. Who he fought for the deputy leadership of the party, and | :07:46. | :07:49. | |
lost, just. This afternoon I went to talk to the man who was Tony Benn's | :07:50. | :07:53. | |
enemy, but later in life became his friend. I asked him what Benn was | :07:54. | :07:58. | |
like when the pair were first elected to parliament in 1952. Well | :07:59. | :08:09. | |
he was, me my view, an artificial lefty at that time. An artificial | :08:10. | :08:14. | |
lefty? I think he was trying to prove he was working-class. He was | :08:15. | :08:18. | |
very ashamed of his upper-class background really. At the worst | :08:19. | :08:23. | |
time, when the party was full of splits, when he stood against you, | :08:24. | :08:28. | |
how much bitterness was there? There was quite a lot of bitterness, | :08:29. | :08:34. | |
really. Because I felt he was doing the party enormous damage, and I'm | :08:35. | :08:39. | |
sure he was at that time by the way he behaved, not just his views. But | :08:40. | :08:47. | |
as I say all that disappeared in later life. What do you mean by the | :08:48. | :08:53. | |
way he behaved? Well, that he would be extremely route and offensive in | :08:54. | :09:01. | |
what he said. Rude to you, offensive to you? Yes, a little bit, but then | :09:02. | :09:07. | |
I was offensive to him. Was he toxic to the Labour Party? It was damaging | :09:08. | :09:13. | |
to us, without question. But what was most damaging was the divisions, | :09:14. | :09:19. | |
caused by the views. Because most people knew nothing about the issues | :09:20. | :09:25. | |
we disagreed on. But they disagreed, that they disliked immensely hearing | :09:26. | :09:30. | |
people in the same party being rude to one another. Was that his fault? | :09:31. | :09:39. | |
I think it was, mainly, yes. How did he go from being such a toxic figure | :09:40. | :09:44. | |
in the Labour Party to becoming a national treasure sure, almost a | :09:45. | :09:53. | |
grandfather of British politics? I think his views softened enormously. | :09:54. | :10:06. | |
And you know, he was at one time leading a toxic left-wing and I mean | :10:07. | :10:13. | |
people like Michael Foot loathed him, because he did the party so | :10:14. | :10:18. | |
much damage by the way he talked. Although Michael shared many of his | :10:19. | :10:24. | |
views. What was he like? Tony at the end, well he was still you know a | :10:25. | :10:37. | |
man with a golden tongue, but he was totally unaggressive. Where as when | :10:38. | :10:41. | |
he was young he was very aggressive, and indeed. And I think that was | :10:42. | :10:45. | |
partly his need to prove that he had broken with his family background. I | :10:46. | :10:54. | |
think he really wanted to prove he was left-wing. He couldn't prove he | :10:55. | :10:58. | |
was working-class because he wasn't, it was the opposite. Did you like | :10:59. | :11:04. | |
him? I disliked him intensely when we disagreed with one another, but | :11:05. | :11:07. | |
we had very good relations in our late life. Tony Benn also famously | :11:08. | :11:12. | |
said that broadcasting is too important to be left to the | :11:13. | :11:16. | |
broadcasters. With me are the Liberal Democrat peer, Shirley | :11:17. | :11:21. | |
Williams, Labour MP Diane abbot, and Tim Montgomerie, comment editor at | :11:22. | :11:31. | |
the Times. Diane abbot, it is rare a politician captures the imagination | :11:32. | :11:35. | |
of so many people. Do you accept what was said there that Tony Benn | :11:36. | :11:40. | |
did damage to the Labour Party? It wasn't his views softened, it was | :11:41. | :11:43. | |
positions he took up in relation to Ireland, issues like gay marriage, | :11:44. | :11:47. | |
race, women, they became very mainstream. People forget part of | :11:48. | :11:54. | |
Tony Benn's victory, in a lot of the things he espoused early on in his | :11:55. | :12:00. | |
career became mainstream. The damage you could argue was it the SDP | :12:01. | :12:03. | |
walking out to cause the damage or people talking about party democracy | :12:04. | :12:07. | |
causing damage. It was a difficult period. But he was an inspirational | :12:08. | :12:10. | |
gig that brought people into politics. In the end people like | :12:11. | :12:16. | |
people who they think really believe what they are saying. I came this | :12:17. | :12:20. | |
evening from a birthday party, with a lot of black and minority ethnic | :12:21. | :12:25. | |
people there, they wanted me to say tonight that people need to remember | :12:26. | :12:28. | |
how much black people loved Tony Benn, you guys are in the political | :12:29. | :12:33. | |
bubble. For the people outside the political bubble, Tony Benn spoke | :12:34. | :12:36. | |
for people who didn't have a voice. It is rare to have that, and we will | :12:37. | :12:40. | |
come back to that. Shirley Williams you were one of the people who | :12:41. | :12:43. | |
walked out and you started as young MPs together. Was it his views that | :12:44. | :12:46. | |
led you and your colleagues to the exit door, how instrumental was he | :12:47. | :12:51. | |
in that? Not really. I think Tony in the 60s was a mainstream politician, | :12:52. | :12:56. | |
and a very good minister for technology. I think frankly in the | :12:57. | :13:02. | |
70s he had subscribed to a great extent to a pretty far left with | :13:03. | :13:07. | |
militant tendency. No he didn't. He was never a member of the militant | :13:08. | :13:11. | |
left. I know becau I was on the national executive. I was there. I | :13:12. | :13:14. | |
was on the national executive week after week after week and you were | :13:15. | :13:20. | |
not. He was not a member of the militant tendency. I was on the NEC | :13:21. | :13:24. | |
Not for the whole period. Here is an example of how devisive he could be. | :13:25. | :13:29. | |
He was never a member of the Militant Tendency. When I started I | :13:30. | :13:33. | |
said he subscribed to some of the views. You can check the record I | :13:34. | :13:36. | |
did not say he was a member. I did say and I mean it that he was | :13:37. | :13:39. | |
supportive of them. And when issues came up at the national executive, | :13:40. | :13:49. | |
like the appointment of the National Youth Officer. , the best national | :13:50. | :13:53. | |
agent the Labour Party had, that was laid on the table, never opened | :13:54. | :13:56. | |
again and that was partly because Tony was chairman of the Home Policy | :13:57. | :14:00. | |
Committee and said we are not going to open it. He was instrumental in | :14:01. | :14:06. | |
making things happen. I think he was pretty instrumental. He was | :14:07. | :14:09. | |
outrageous in the way he treated Harold Wilson and Jim Callaghan, | :14:10. | :14:12. | |
they were not traitors to the Labour Government, which I think Tony | :14:13. | :14:16. | |
implied. They were men who worked very hard, especially Jim Callaghan. | :14:17. | :14:20. | |
I thought he was very damaging to the Labour movement at that point. I | :14:21. | :14:24. | |
don't think it was through the 60s, but during the 70s it is hard to | :14:25. | :14:29. | |
argue anything else. The Sun called him the most dangerous man in | :14:30. | :14:33. | |
Britain, do you think Conservative voters or people leaning that way | :14:34. | :14:37. | |
really thought that. Did they really believe that? While sections of the | :14:38. | :14:40. | |
left had some internal conversations? Absolutely, by the | :14:41. | :14:44. | |
end of the 1970s, the Government I by which Tony Benn was a leading | :14:45. | :14:49. | |
part, people felt was ungovernable to many people. And the split | :14:50. | :14:52. | |
between Diane and Shirley, that split on the left of British | :14:53. | :14:56. | |
politics was the reason or one of the key reasons why Margaret | :14:57. | :15:01. | |
Thatcher was able to win those decisive majorities she did. The | :15:02. | :15:04. | |
split on the left with the decisive fact in British politics for a long | :15:05. | :15:09. | |
period. It was the unreasonableness of Tony Benn, testified to there by | :15:10. | :15:14. | |
Denis Healey, that created that division. But do you think people | :15:15. | :15:17. | |
really thought he was dangerous, some kind of bogeyman, that is | :15:18. | :15:24. | |
hyperbole, headline writing? I don't think so, if you look at some of the | :15:25. | :15:29. | |
positions he took, particularly on nuclear disarment. That was a period | :15:30. | :15:33. | |
when many people genuinely feared what the Soviet Union represented. | :15:34. | :15:37. | |
That was a time in the world when people were very frightened. His | :15:38. | :15:40. | |
support for giving up our nuclear weapons, leaving Britain potentially | :15:41. | :15:45. | |
defenceless against what Ronald Regan correctly described as the | :15:46. | :15:47. | |
evil empire, people worried about that. People weren't frightened of | :15:48. | :15:53. | |
him. When he went out in the 80s and 90s and spoke to people, the same | :15:54. | :15:59. | |
blue rinse brigade, and he was extremely popular and his ideas were | :16:00. | :16:04. | |
popular, to call him a member of the militant tendency is bizarre. I did | :16:05. | :16:08. | |
not say that, I said he subscribed to some of its ideas. In terms of | :16:09. | :16:17. | |
that do you accept there was a nervousness amongst many voters | :16:18. | :16:20. | |
about the positions he took. You said his views were mainstream, but | :16:21. | :16:24. | |
for many people they weren't? His views on thing things like on the | :16:25. | :16:34. | |
Iraq War. Tabloid newspapers said he was clinically insane, the terrible | :16:35. | :16:39. | |
things they used to write. No wonder Tory ladies were frightened of him. | :16:40. | :16:44. | |
What he did have, no doubt Shirley Williams, if you look at the green | :16:45. | :16:47. | |
benches he was a politician people believed, and they believed that he | :16:48. | :16:50. | |
believed what he was saying? That is perfectly true. I accept that, and I | :16:51. | :16:54. | |
think that tony said what he believed, and fought it very | :16:55. | :16:57. | |
strongly. I think the implication he's unique in that annoys me. | :16:58. | :17:02. | |
Somebody like Michael Foot, who was very different in his attitude | :17:03. | :17:06. | |
towards, particularly parliament, which he vastly admired, much more | :17:07. | :17:09. | |
than Tony Benn was not treated. Do we have that now? No, a lot of the | :17:10. | :17:14. | |
more colourful characters have moved on. Now we have politicians who seem | :17:15. | :17:17. | |
rather like one another. That is partly because the divisions have | :17:18. | :17:21. | |
narrowed between political parties quite substantially, I think. And | :17:22. | :17:26. | |
partly because of some of the things Tony addressed. What is interesting | :17:27. | :17:29. | |
is he was yearning for a world that had gone. I don't think he was | :17:30. | :17:32. | |
tremenduously a man of the modern world. Hang on you can have your | :17:33. | :17:38. | |
opinion in the minute. Speaking at Glastonbury, packing out Town Halls | :17:39. | :17:41. | |
around the country. Let me finish the sentence. He didn't really | :17:42. | :17:45. | |
recognise that the world was becoming global and he wasn't in | :17:46. | :17:48. | |
that sense a politician who had a global view? What do you say to | :17:49. | :17:52. | |
that? I think he was a great internationalist, whether it was his | :17:53. | :17:56. | |
position on Iraq, on apartheid. I was against Iraq too, so was my | :17:57. | :18:02. | |
party. Was he someone whose time had passed? It is extraordinary, he's so | :18:03. | :18:07. | |
popular, not with the blue rinse ladies but with young people. He was | :18:08. | :18:10. | |
an inspirational figure. He was also actually a very kind man and | :18:11. | :18:16. | |
incredibly courteous, if all politicians had his intellectual | :18:17. | :18:19. | |
curiosity and his curtesy parliament would be a better place. I'm going | :18:20. | :18:24. | |
to talk, you two are never going to agree, Shirley we will come back to | :18:25. | :18:28. | |
you in one second. But Tim, where are the equivalents, whether on the | :18:29. | :18:41. | |
left or right, or somewhere in the middle. Are those characters there? | :18:42. | :18:46. | |
I think there are some characterists, like Dan Hannon, they | :18:47. | :18:51. | |
agree with Tony Benn on democracy. Lots on the right think where he | :18:52. | :18:54. | |
stood on Europe, the idea I think he once said that outside of the | :18:55. | :18:57. | |
Kremlin there is no organisation where there is less accountability | :18:58. | :19:02. | |
than the European Union. His belief that we should be able to change the | :19:03. | :19:07. | |
people who make our laws in a democracy, he would be standing with | :19:08. | :19:10. | |
all sorts of the most interesting people in politics on that | :19:11. | :19:13. | |
democratic question. Interesting that none of those people are in | :19:14. | :19:17. | |
particularly senior positions. Shirley, finally to you, you knew | :19:18. | :19:21. | |
him for the longest time. What was he like and what will you remember, | :19:22. | :19:25. | |
briefly you if you could? He was a fine thinking, he was an interesting | :19:26. | :19:30. | |
man who came up with new ideas. He was not unique in being for example | :19:31. | :19:33. | |
against Iraq, some remember that the entire party which I happened to be | :19:34. | :19:38. | |
involved in was against Iraq and he was, for example, not unique in | :19:39. | :19:42. | |
being in favour of gay marriage, because Roy Jenkins who was the | :19:43. | :19:46. | |
other extreme, the right-wing of the Labour Party was the man who brought | :19:47. | :19:49. | |
in the actual legislation about homosexuality in a way that Tony | :19:50. | :19:54. | |
wasn't in a position to do. I think with great respect that Diane is | :19:55. | :19:57. | |
giving him credit for all sorts of things which other Labour | :19:58. | :20:00. | |
politicians absolutely aspired. You two can continue this conversation, | :20:01. | :20:04. | |
but I am afraid we have run out of time. Thank you all very much for | :20:05. | :20:08. | |
coming in this evening. Now, the Russian and American foreign policy | :20:09. | :20:12. | |
bosses at least talked face-to-face today about Ukraine. But as soon as | :20:13. | :20:21. | |
emerged that John Kerry and Sergei Lavrov had booked separate venues | :20:22. | :20:25. | |
for their press conferences, it was thought nothing could be achieved. | :20:26. | :20:28. | |
They couldn't be further apart on this crisis. The Americans say this | :20:29. | :20:33. | |
referendum on Crimea is illegal. Russia, not surprisingly will | :20:34. | :20:38. | |
respect the result. Well we're there tonight. Is there anything more the | :20:39. | :20:46. | |
west can do to stop this vote from actually happening? Well, it is | :20:47. | :20:48. | |
fascinating question, one of the things that's become really clear in | :20:49. | :20:55. | |
this is President Putin's desire to control this crisis. If you like the | :20:56. | :21:00. | |
escalate or deescalate controller. We have seen that today with what | :21:01. | :21:05. | |
was said in London. For example there has been another example in | :21:06. | :21:11. | |
Ukraine of violence between pro-Russian and anti-Russian people. | :21:12. | :21:15. | |
Will it lead to issues in Ukraine, you have no ideas from the London | :21:16. | :21:22. | |
meeting with Lavrov today. John Kerry said one thing clear was | :21:23. | :21:27. | |
President Putin didn't want to make any decisions on the crisis until | :21:28. | :21:30. | |
after the Sunday referendum in Crimea. Countries opposed to what | :21:31. | :21:34. | |
he's trying to do will have their say in the United Nations tomorrow. | :21:35. | :21:37. | |
We know of course that Russia will veto that. And meanwhile, everything | :21:38. | :21:42. | |
is building up towards that vote and you get an absolutely clear | :21:43. | :21:46. | |
impression on the ground of Russia's determination to prevail here. | :21:47. | :21:53. | |
Crimea's political connection to Ukraine is now a slender slither of | :21:54. | :22:01. | |
land. Coming in by train you speed past a Ukrainian army checkpoint | :22:02. | :22:06. | |
that effectively marks a border with part of their own country. Arriving | :22:07. | :22:15. | |
here locals with armband, Russians are there to ensure order and stop | :22:16. | :22:27. | |
new comesers to search them. For some people, like the couple of | :22:28. | :22:31. | |
hundred who lined the roads, this is a future they don't want to share. | :22:32. | :22:36. | |
It is to show not everyone in Crimea supports Russia, and actually a lot | :22:37. | :22:40. | |
of people are for Ukraine, and we don't want to be a Bart of Russia. | :22:41. | :22:48. | |
But Travelling an hour east along the road we found out how hard it is | :22:49. | :22:52. | |
to stand in the way of Crimea's return to Russia. Just above the | :22:53. | :22:58. | |
town is a huge zoo and tourist attraction. Falling in behind his | :22:59. | :23:04. | |
referendum battle wagon, we joined its owner, an ardent supporter of | :23:05. | :23:08. | |
the union with Russia, who took us on a tour of Europe's largest | :23:09. | :23:17. | |
collection... Of tigers and lions. And where as President Putin might | :23:18. | :23:23. | |
like the idea of wrestling lions, Oleg actually does. I have been in | :23:24. | :23:33. | |
some tricky situations, I wasn't quite expecting to find myself | :23:34. | :23:38. | |
face-to-face with lions, while discussing the Crimea referendum. | :23:39. | :23:43. | |
The lion park's owner is not only wealthy and well connected, but he | :23:44. | :23:47. | |
has helped organise the local self-defence group as well as the | :23:48. | :23:51. | |
referendum and is convinced where Crimea's destiny lies. TRANSLATION: | :23:52. | :24:01. | |
I think our future is Russia, separation was a mistake by crush | :24:02. | :24:06. | |
shove, this will be corrected. Nobody could imagine the events that | :24:07. | :24:10. | |
the USSR would collapse, and the Crimea would transfer to the Ukraine | :24:11. | :24:13. | |
and with such consequences. Who would believe it would end in such a | :24:14. | :24:19. | |
dirty trick. The spirit here is more Russian than Ukrainian. Down here | :24:20. | :24:28. | |
there is resistence, in this community of 50,000, the mayor | :24:29. | :24:36. | |
refused to carry out Sunday's referendum. TRANSLATION: I initially | :24:37. | :24:40. | |
addressed the citizens, urging them in such difficult times we should | :24:41. | :24:45. | |
all remain calm, not to be addressive or provocative to each | :24:46. | :24:49. | |
other. I did this to prevent the situation getting out of control. To | :24:50. | :24:56. | |
risk a sma spark ignighting a big fire. The mayor's warning has been | :24:57. | :25:00. | |
ignored, he has been bypassed by local officials, who are now working | :25:01. | :25:07. | |
hard to prepare ballot papers for Sunday's vote. They invited us in to | :25:08. | :25:12. | |
see. It is no mean feat, since the sudden announcement of the poll left | :25:13. | :25:27. | |
no time for a new electoral register The mix of identities here causes | :25:28. | :25:34. | |
this split. While the tatas, of whom the mayor is one have dark memories | :25:35. | :25:37. | |
of Soviet times, local Russians would gladly have them back. | :25:38. | :25:44. | |
TRANSLATION: To me this is a historical moment, a restoration of | :25:45. | :25:49. | |
what became a smaller motherland to my great motherland that is Russia. | :25:50. | :25:55. | |
Those who oppose the referendum will boycott it, that is not just tatas, | :25:56. | :25:59. | |
we found local Ukrainians planning to as well. TRANSLATION: I think | :26:00. | :26:06. | |
this is an occupation. Occupiers have invaded our land. We have lived | :26:07. | :26:10. | |
with Russians in peace and harmony since ancient times, and now he | :26:11. | :26:16. | |
wants to start world war three, we don't want war. That message on the | :26:17. | :26:22. | |
banner, that Crimea is Russian, is one that most people in the | :26:23. | :26:26. | |
territory would subscribe to. But this town is split. And pushing the | :26:27. | :26:30. | |
referendum through will leave a legacy of bitterness that could sow | :26:31. | :26:42. | |
the seeds of future strife. This man already senses victory, a powerful | :26:43. | :26:48. | |
majority for union with Russia, leaving the Catholicics penned in by | :26:49. | :27:02. | |
their own ideas. Does art get at the truth before | :27:03. | :27:05. | |
history can write it. Sir David Hare, one of our most celebrated | :27:06. | :27:10. | |
playwrights has sent 40 years chronicling many of our biggest | :27:11. | :27:18. | |
events. Normally from stage left. His play, The Permanent Way | :27:19. | :27:22. | |
dramatised the sell-off of the railways. The latest work, a trilogy | :27:23. | :27:26. | |
for TV takes on the spooks, with plots that could have been torn from | :27:27. | :27:31. | |
the headlines and a stellar cast too. In a moment he will talk to us, | :27:32. | :27:46. | |
mere is a thriver. What do you do? I'm financial PR. What is that? If | :27:47. | :27:53. | |
you haven't heard of Gladstone. Years ago it would take a lifetime | :27:54. | :28:00. | |
to destroy the reputation of a Dr Or a banker -- doctor or a banker, now | :28:01. | :28:04. | |
you just hit send and it can happen overnight. It is my job to keep the | :28:05. | :28:08. | |
company's good name. Does Gladstone have a good name? Good enough. Sir | :28:09. | :28:16. | |
David is here with us now. In modern times we have always had the | :28:17. | :28:19. | |
Security Services, there has always been intrigue around them, whether | :28:20. | :28:25. | |
that is James Bond or Le Carre. Why did you choose to take on this | :28:26. | :28:29. | |
subject at this moment in time? Because everything changed for them | :28:30. | :28:33. | |
in 2001, they weren't ready for it. At the end of the last century they | :28:34. | :28:38. | |
thought that they were facing decline. I knew some people inside | :28:39. | :28:42. | |
the building and they were really worried that it was going to be a | :28:43. | :28:46. | |
very bad time for spies, with Northern Ireland settled the Cold | :28:47. | :28:49. | |
War over it appeared to be a low movement in spies' fortunes. They | :28:50. | :28:54. | |
didn't see the direction that trouble was coming from, they | :28:55. | :28:57. | |
weren't ready for t and they weren't ready for some of the moral problems | :28:58. | :29:01. | |
raised in the last ten years. So a boom time for the Security Services | :29:02. | :29:06. | |
has given you new fodder? I think it is that John Le Carre is somebody we | :29:07. | :29:12. | |
all admire as a great writer in the field. But he had the Cold War, or | :29:13. | :29:16. | |
he wrote brilliantly about the cold war, but nobody has been writing | :29:17. | :29:18. | |
about the particular issues that have come up since the invasion of | :29:19. | :29:27. | |
Iraq and 9/11. Those are about the means by which intelligence is | :29:28. | :29:30. | |
gathered. And the scruples or lack of them that exist inside MI5, I | :29:31. | :29:37. | |
know less about 5. MI 6, but the scruples that exist within the | :29:38. | :29:40. | |
intelligence community and the argument that is go on inside the | :29:41. | :29:43. | |
community about how they should be behaving. What were the arguments? | :29:44. | :29:47. | |
There is people inside MI5 that believe the ends justify the means | :29:48. | :29:51. | |
and there are those who don't. There is absolutely no doubt we have been | :29:52. | :29:56. | |
complicit in illegal ways of torturing people to gather | :29:57. | :29:59. | |
information. We know we have. You know, they look at information and | :30:00. | :30:02. | |
they say, well this is strangely good, how on earth can it be so | :30:03. | :30:07. | |
good. They claim not to then take the next step where they say how can | :30:08. | :30:11. | |
this intelligence be so good. Some people favour these methods, and | :30:12. | :30:14. | |
politicians, unfortunately are forced to lie about it. But the | :30:15. | :30:18. | |
Government denies that, it is quite an accusation to say politicians lie | :30:19. | :30:22. | |
about this all the time. Are you saying people inside the Security | :30:23. | :30:25. | |
Services have been open with you about that? It is quite an | :30:26. | :30:30. | |
allegation? Oh yeah. Categorically? Yes, of course. And why then do you | :30:31. | :30:37. | |
think that in the same era where we have Edward Snowden, we have Bradley | :30:38. | :30:44. | |
Manning, and wicky ks putting huge amounts of information about the | :30:45. | :30:47. | |
services out into the public domain, why do we need to have writing about | :30:48. | :30:52. | |
it, given that information bursts out from everywhere? I'm writing | :30:53. | :30:57. | |
because it is entertaining, I'm writing about a jolly Warwick, | :30:58. | :31:02. | |
imagined character within MI5, it is not documentary what I write, it is | :31:03. | :31:05. | |
fiction. But it is fiction that is based on what is closely going on. | :31:06. | :31:10. | |
And I hope these films are extremely entertaining. That is what they are | :31:11. | :31:12. | |
meant to be. You have never shied away from taking on political | :31:13. | :31:16. | |
subjects and famously you stopped voting Labour because of the Iraq | :31:17. | :31:19. | |
wax and then I understand voted Liberal Democrat in 2010. Bringing | :31:20. | :31:29. | |
out All myment painful secrets. I thought the ballot box was private. | :31:30. | :31:36. | |
What do you make of the Government now, despite the comments about the | :31:37. | :31:41. | |
Security Services. What do you make of the coalition for the Liberal | :31:42. | :31:54. | |
Democrats you voted for. I think foreign policy has been donated to | :31:55. | :31:58. | |
Washington, they are giving away their power all the time. The things | :31:59. | :32:03. | |
the state used to own they give away. They have recently given away | :32:04. | :32:07. | |
the Royal Mail. Politicians seem more and more diminished and seem to | :32:08. | :32:11. | |
be happy to be. In other words to delegate authority now seems to be | :32:12. | :32:14. | |
what politicians want to do because they are frightened of taking | :32:15. | :32:17. | |
responsibility for things. You are sounding a bit like Tony Benn? I | :32:18. | :32:22. | |
think that the interesting thing about what's been said today about | :32:23. | :32:26. | |
Tony Benn is that everybody's been saying he was very eloquent and he's | :32:27. | :32:30. | |
a great speaker and wonderful orator, but oratory is about | :32:31. | :32:35. | |
content. The reason he was interesting is because he had | :32:36. | :32:41. | |
interesting ideas. Eloquence doesn't arrive on top of ideas, it is the | :32:42. | :32:45. | |
expression of ideas. The reason the current leaders are boring and | :32:46. | :32:48. | |
effectively that is what your speaker has just said, there is | :32:49. | :32:53. | |
nobody who speaks interestingly any more, that is because they don't | :32:54. | :32:56. | |
have interesting ideas, not because they are not great rhetorician. | :32:57. | :33:07. | |
Isn't it easy to say these things from a North London intellectual | :33:08. | :33:12. | |
life? I used to feel the opposite. I wrote about Neil Kinnock and the | :33:13. | :33:17. | |
1991 election. I was convinced on both sides, John Major a man I | :33:18. | :33:20. | |
admired very much, and Neil Kinnock whom I also admired. I was convinced | :33:21. | :33:24. | |
that politicians were working for the public good. I think it is very | :33:25. | :33:28. | |
hard after the Iraq War and the ex-PEPses scandal to believe that | :33:29. | :33:31. | |
they are any more. It has to be two way. They can't ask us to respect | :33:32. | :33:37. | |
them unless they respect us. That's why writing about MI5 is so | :33:38. | :33:41. | |
interesting. Because you know if they are to respect us, they | :33:42. | :33:45. | |
actually have to tell us something about what's going on. Just let me | :33:46. | :33:52. | |
finish, that means not shutting down the Gibson Inquiry, and it means | :33:53. | :34:00. | |
taking the Chalcot inquiry seriously. Thank you very much for | :34:01. | :34:07. | |
coming in and speaking to us. The Warwick trilogy starts tomorrow on | :34:08. | :34:11. | |
BBC Two. That is all from us tonight. We will leave you with one | :34:12. | :34:15. | |
more reminder of the words of Tony Benn who died this morning, and the | :34:16. | :34:19. | |
way he put the personal and political together to fight for his | :34:20. | :34:22. | |
cause. As you will hear, never more so than during his battle against | :34:23. | :34:29. | |
the war in Iraq. Good night. I was born a quarter of a mile from where | :34:30. | :34:33. | |
we are sitting now, I was here in London during the blitz, every night | :34:34. | :34:38. | |
I went down to the shelter, 500 people killed, my brother was killed | :34:39. | :34:42. | |
and my friends were killed. When the charter of the UN was read to me, | :34:43. | :34:47. | |
"we the peoples of the United Nations determine to save succeeding | :34:48. | :34:49. | |
generations from the scourge of war" that was the pledge my generation | :34:50. | :34:53. | |
gave to the younger generation and you tore it up, it is a war crime | :34:54. | :34:58. | |
that has been committed in Iraq. There is no moral difference. | :34:59. | :35:03. | |
LINEBREAK APPLAUSE Between a stealth and suicide | :35:04. | :35:07. | |
bomber, both kill people for political reasons. | :35:08. | :35:26. | |
The weekend is upon us, for many of us not looking too bad. Some rain | :35:27. | :35:31. | |
around, notably across the | :35:32. | :35:32. |