17/03/2014 Newsnight

They are hailing it as the most important cosmic discovery in a

generation. It doesn't the big bang, that happened years ago, but it

shows what happened to make our universe. Gravity waves were

predicted by Einstein, it has taken a century to find them. Now that we

have, what have we proved? We will ask two happy scientists, and from

Boston, we talk to the man from the team who made the discovery. Flight

MH370, was it hijacked? Where is it? How can we have not the faintest

idea a week after the event? Emily has hints about the budget. They are

looking for help for all those hard working families. Will ?2,000

tax-free childcare do it? It has come to this, Noel Edmonds thinks

the license fee is dead and the BBC should effectively be privatised.

He's here to lay out his manifesto. As regular viewers will be more than

aware Newsnight isn't ashamed to reguerring Tate or more commonly

revisit ancient news, if it is news it is news to us. Tonight we surpass

ourselves with analysis of events at the very dawn of time, before even

the An teaks road show had been invented. American scientists

believed they discovered something that happened a fraction of a second

after the big bang, some several billion years ago. In the world of

cosmology, it is a very big deal indeed. Chris Lintot of the Sky At

Night fame reports for Newsnight. The universe began 13. Eight billion

years ago in a big bang, and scientists' imaginations can take us

almost to that point. Until now proving it has been impossible. In

an unspectacular setting remarkable news n a day that these scientists

thought would never come. A chance to test out theories in extreme

conditions. I'm at the Royal Observatory Greenwich, the

historical home of British astronomy and place renowned for time keeping.

Even the astronomers here would be impressed if I told them we had

evidence something happened a ten million, billion, billionth of a

second after the big bang. Today's discovery comes from a radio

telescope at the South Pole, known as BicepII. It is great place to do

astronomy, it is desert dry, which allows it to see the oldest light in

the universe, the cosmic microwave background. This is this cosmic

microwave background. A picture of the universe as it was 400,000 years

after the big bang. You can see it is lumpy, there are dark bits cooler

than the average, and bright bits hotter than the average. And all of

that structure goes on to form the galaxies that we see around us

today. To begin with the universe was filled with a soup of particle,

mainly electron, and light scattered from one electron to another, but as

the universe expanded the electrons lost energy, and they are suddenly

captured by atomic nuclei. They scatter across the universe reaching

us on earth 13. 8 billion years later. That light contains the

distinctive imprint of a violent time in the universe's history, just

after the big bang, it seems the universe expanded almost

instantaneously, in a cosmic inflation. Space itself would ha

rippled, sending gravitational waves spreading out across the universe.

It is the affect of those waves that Bicep has seen today. Inflation is

an idea which has really solves a lot of problems. But finding

evidence for it is hard. And this is really the first, not direct

evidence, but it is indirect evidence which looks on the face of

it quite powerful. Inflation changed our universe forever, it created the

seeds from which the galaxies we see around us formed, it guaranteed that

the part of the universe we can see is only a tiny, and some would say,

insignificant part of all there is. What What we have seen today might

well be the first signal of an event that happened a tiny fraction of a

second after the big bang, but shaped the universe around us. If

this result stands up, it will be a red letter day in the history of if

Is sicks and win many people many Nobel Prizes in the years to come.

We have the co-leader of the Bicep operation, and we have our guests in

the studio. SMI First to Boston, were you surprised by what you

found? We were some what surprised. So previously indications were that

the signal was smaller than what we found. That was surprising, from a

theoretical perspective the signal is about the size it would be

expected to be. Of course it is very surprising to go on a, on what some

people might have characterised as a wild goose chase and find the goose.

Yes, we were very surprised. It must be amazing, you are looking evidence

of something that happened 14 billion years ago, what is that

like? We have been studying the microwave background for many years,

we have been looking back to the 400,000 year, that has been my

career. Today's discovery is special, because it is looking at an

imprint at that 400,000 year epoch, which comes from the first tiny,

tiny fraction of a second after the beginning. We are essentially seeing

gravitational waves from that first moment of creation, written on the

sky at 400,000 years. Were you following a hunch here. Did you find

that there was opposition to your pursuing this line of research? It

must have been phenomenally expensive? Actually our experiment

is not terribly expensive by the standards of modern physics

research. We are talking maybe $10-$20 million. It is a small

telescope and highly targeted experiment. We built it to look

specifically for this observational signature and nothing else. That

allowed it to be only modestly expensive. Did you find it difficult

to get backing? Well, you know, we are funded by the US National

Science Foundation, they fund a number of telescopes, after the same

goal as us. They differ in details but basically after the same goal.

So that is the way that they have decided to go. You know funding a

number of smaller experiments. The European Space Agency has right now

the Plunk Space Mission, which is a very expensive mission, which is

going after the same thing amongst other things. That is a more

generalised experiment. We have a couple of your colleagues here in

the studio in London, one is involved, you are both involved in

the Plank Project. Just you, you are involved in it. Exciting day isn't

it? It is an amazing day. This buzz has been building for a few days,

all these rumours on the Internet, and people were discussing what

could come. But I think the news that they got today exceeded

certainly my expectations, the level of the significantle thats was very

high. This was unexpected. The Plank had set a slightly lower limit, that

is very interesting. The way the experiment actually worked and the

level of the low noise they were able to achieve with the signal is

an incredible achievementnt actually worked and the level of the low

noise they were able to achieve with the signal is an incredible

achievement. Is there anything you want to ask him to make sure he got

it right? How long have you gathered this data for. I wasn't expecting

that. Is it recent or is it quite a bit of data. Before people publish

anything, you want to have robustness behind you. How much are

you holding in reserve and how much data do you have? The data we

announced today was taken between 2010-2012, the last of the data was

taken more than a year ago. The reason it has taken a time to

finalise the result and put it out is it was so unexpected, we needed

to test everything and drill into and slice and dice the data to try

to make sure we weren't making a mistake, that there wasn't

contamination from the experiment or sources on the ground, or even from

foreground mission on our own galaxy. We were pretty sure. We set

everything out in the papers we submitted today, and people can

judge for themselves. Supposing he's right, what's the significance?

Let's assume he's right. I will be the last to know, and so will many

other people, apart from some of our viewers, I suppose. Let's assume

that it is all as it appears, this is a sense sayingal discovery, why

does it matter? What we're looking at, there are two discoveries here,

the first I'm talking about gravitational waves, the elusive

gravitational waves. Einstein predicted them in 1916, and other

things he predicted, gravitational lens, have been proved and verified.

But gravitational waves was one of the elusive things we didn't have

evidence to support. Just the fact we have got that is another tick in

the box for that theory. This cosmic expansion has now been evidenced. We

have known about the big bang for many, many years, when you think

about the universe as the size of the marble, there are glitches with

that, things that didn't stand up with the theory. People made

suggestions in the 80s, they call up with -- came up with suggestions,

they came up with cosmic expansion, so in a tiny amount of time there

was massive expansion and you get the gravitational waves produced and

we are looking at the remnants now. That expansion was the blueprint for

the universe we live in today. So the terms and conditions at that

point dictate the universe we live in today. There are some people

talking about how this provides the hint to the theory of everything?

That's right. Can you explain in layman's terms what that means? So

this process of inflation that has been discussed here, tuly acted as

the origin of all the stuff that we see in the universe today. All the

galaxies, clusters of galaxies, planets, everything came from tiny

ripples in space in the early times. This is a direct hint of that time

and of that physics. So we have two theories, one is the Einstien's

general relatively, the theory of gravity. There is another pillar of

modern physics, quantum mechanics. These two theories by themselves are

inconsistent. They have to be unified in a broader theory. A

theory of quantum gravity. String theory is a candidate for that. If

we have gravitational waves at the level they have detected today, it

makes the physics really, really early and sensitive to quantum

gravity. I think this could be a tremendous leap in physics, not just

cosmology, if it pans out it could point to a significant breakthrough

in physics. Funny for of us in the taughtry tawedry business of news.

This is what it is all about. Do you hope for a Nobel Prize for this? We

have been deliberatelyRCEDYELLOW This is what it is all about. Do you

hope for a Nobel Prize for this? We have been deliberately not talking

about that, others have mentioned it! We are still no closer to the

solution of the mystery of how an airliner with 239 human beings on

board could suddenly vanish. The clues are minuscule or non-existent,

the mallakes -- Malaysian Government are looking

inept. We report from qualm had a loam per. -- Kuala Lumpur. One of

the capital's largest mosques. There is a presidential call for the

passengers who boarded the flight. In all the twists and turns of this

incredible story, one fact hasn't changed. 239 people are still

missing, seven of those children. These grainy CCTV pictures of the

pilots passing through security are another reminder how routine this

trip appeared to be. The possibility that a crew member was involved in

the plane's disappearance is still a major and inevitable line of

inquiry. It is in this wealthy gated suburb of Kuala Lumpur that the

captain, Zaharie Ahmad Shah, lives, he has a wife and three children.

Security is tight here, any photographers caught inside risk

having their memory cards wiped and the police called. We now know that

flight MH370 was deliberately steered off course, and put through

a series of complex manoeuvres, perhaps designed to avoid military

radar. It appears someone with advanced flying skills must have

been responsible. The key question is who was at the controls at that

time, and where were they acting alone or under duress. Over the

weekend attention was on the 53-year-old chief pilot. Hi

everyone, this is YouTube video... Zaharie Ahmad Shah had built his own

high-tech Boeing 777 simulator. The police have seized the system and

rebuilt it to test the routes he was flying. Their newspapers brought up

his support for Malaysia's opposition party, headed by their

imprisoned leader words like "fanatic" and "obsessed" were used.

Today a senior politician confirmed to Newsnight he was personal friends

to the pilot, but said any attempt to bring in domestic politics was

part of a crude campaign for smear. What I know of him he's not anyone

who would put his passengers or plane in danger. The Daily Mail also

suggested that he was a vocal political activist or social

activist and went on to describe him as a political fanatic. I think

that's really completely wrong. From what I know of him, you can't

describe him as that. He was a member, he was a quiet member. You

know he was just an ordinary member of the party. He did some social

work for underprivileged kids, and that's it. Today we also learned

more about the movements of flight MH370, a modern Boeing 777. It took

off bound for Beijing in the early hours of March 8th. As it left the

country it passed an automated message giving details of its

position to a system known as ACARSs, times in the minutes after

that, it is not clear when, that system was switched off. By 1. 19am,

someone in the cockpit calmly spoke to staff saying "all right, good

night". We heard those words crucially came from the second pilot

not the captain. Two minutes after the good night message the plane's

transponder was switched off, hiding its position from air traffic

control. And Mr Hamid's family home this afternoon, there was no-one in,

a strong padlock on the door and police circulating outside. We still

don't know if he was involved in the plane's disappearance or possibly

acting under duress. But today's news means once again officials are

appearing to backtrack on earlier statements adding to the confusion

around this crisis. By 2. 15am on March 8th military radar have picked

up the plane hundreds of miles west, well off course. It then appeared to

vanish. But MH370 was still sending a crude signal to a satellite high

above earth, own by a British company. That tells us that six

hours later, with 30 minutes of fuel left in its tank it was somewhere on

one of these two vast flight corridors, stretching from the

southern Indian Ocean to Kazakhstan in Asia. At a packed news

conference, Malaysia's Transport Minister said he had now asked 26

countries to join in the search and rescue effort, based on new data,

that search started today. The fact that there are no distress signals

or Rand some notes, there are no parties claiming to be responsible,

there is always hope. Hope or no hope, for friends and family of the

missing the waiting as soon as. At the airport where their loved ones

set off ten days a the temporary shrine to those on boardpe, for

friends and family of the missing the waiting as soon as. At the

airport where their loved ones set off ten days a the temporary shrine

to those on board. The "hard working families" phrase has been pretty

much part of every speech the Chancellor has made over the past

few weeks. Tonight the first signs of what this might mean in practice

for Wednesday's budget. He is to unveil a package which includes

tax-free childcare for children up to 12, as well as more money for

nurseries and families on benefits. What have you heard? This is, we

think, a pretty big childcare announcement that should help most

families with children under 12. The Government is you evering to put --

offering to put up to ?2,000 per child per year for tax relief, that

would affect every family where each working parent earns below ?150,000.

That is a pretty high threshold. The Tory side to this is a nod towards

universalism, perhaps to appease those affected by child benefit. It

will be for nurseries and disadvantaged children. This is

something the Liberal Democrats would want to see included. They do

this before every budget selectively releasing things they think will

make them look good. What is new ind want to see included. They do this

before every budget selectively releasing things they think will

make them look good. What is new in it? It is being rolled out and a lot

of it not until 2017. The overall structure we have heard before. It

is much more money, it is ?2,000, more people will find themselves

eligible, including those self-employed, and it moves the

Tories crucially for them on to this cost of living territory and it

responds to those previous cuts in child benefit. What is the

anticipated response? Well, the Liberal Democrats are saying this is

a perfect example of the coalition working side-by-side. They each give

the other side credit. Labour has already come forward and said that

this is only help after the next election, so it is too little too

late. They say David Cameron has already shown has true colours by

cutting support for children and families by ?15 billion since he

came to office. Crucially though it will be quite controversial for stay

at home mums, that rather terrible phrase, but this doesn't come into

play if one side of the family, one parent works from home, doesn't go

out to work or only helps lone working parents. It won't help them.

The Conservatives of course would say they are covered in the married

tax allowance, which comes into play in April of 2015. The good news over

the confrontation about Crimea is hasn't become a military clash

between east and west. That is as far as it goes. The European Union

and the United States have imposed sanctions, travel bans and asset

freezes on both Russians and Ukrainians sympathetic to the

Russian intervention. The Russians say the sanctions reflect an

inability to see reality as expressed in the referendum they

organised. President Putin has signed a degree recognising Crimea

as an independent and sovereign state. We're in the capital of

Crimea. Tell me about these sanctions? The EU have put them in

place on several individuals, mostly officials here in this newly

independent Republic of Crimea. The ones from the United States, more

interesting perhaps, seven people close to President Putin. His inner

circle, if you like, of advisers on foreign policy and legal aspects of

what has been done. And while I think it is fair to say that the

European ones aren't going to cause too many sleepless nights here and

many of these local officials don't have much money, the asset seizures

and other measures are definitely sending a signal from the US to

President Putin. Won't Putin though have seen these coming rather? I

think he has. If you look at this, each side seems to have thought a

couple of steps ahead. We have had the threats for example of military

intervention in eastern Ukraine. I don't think he wants to do that at

the moment. And it seems to have been designed to make people accept

the loss of Crimea, if you like, as the lesser problem. He's also talked

about, hinted that he realised Russia may be forced out of the G8

organisation. He's definitely done that. Interestingly hints from

President Obama that he too has done that, talking about further steps in

prospect, the Americans ultimately if this got worse and worse could go

to Iran-style sanctions. But at the moment nobody here in Crimea is

losing sleep about that, they are ebb bullent, they feel they are

winning. NSMIT Here they believe might is right. Security was stepped

up and a message sent to foreigners who said their referendum was

illegal. Inside the thumping majority for union with Russia

brought the deputies to rapture. Then they voted through a series of

dramatic laws to adopt the rouble, even to switch to Russian time zone,

and of course for union with Russia. They did no more than answer the

call of so many Crimeans to escape the ineptitude of Ukrainian rule and

enter the powerful embrace of Mother Russia. TRANSLATION: The Ukraine

will not be able to unite us and so give us a better life. Russia is a

stronger country, I'm Russian myself, I'm from St Petersburg, and

I know that life will be better now. But it was done so crudely, a false

choice of ballot that made what would naturally have been a majority

for Russia into something spurn bid the wider world and creating so many

new problems. Another law voted through this morning called for the

disbandment of all the blockaded Ukrainian army units in Crimea. This

is the airfield where early on Russian troops seized it and fired

over the heads of Ukrainians who tried to take their base back. But

we found signs that the spirit of resistance has flagged and that each

man must take his own decisions. Like this officer who wanted his

identity concealed. All my colleagues will decide which side we

want to serve. Do you think perhaps the politicians in Kiev have given

up that they don't think it is possible to hold the bases? For them

it would be hard to leave us here in Crimea, it would be very hard to

leave us on this base. What sort of decision do you think you will make?

I will serve the Ukrainian nation and people. You will have to leave?

Yes. I have to leave my own city, my natural city, I was porn born here.

Unfortunately I have to do this. Here too is evidence of a deal to

keep tensions under control. The Russians have pulled back on to the

ridge out of view, while the personnel make up their minds to

stay or go. ATR, an independent TV channel today relayed parliament's

latest decisions. The station's owned by Crimean Tatas, many of whom

refused to vote yesterday, and who feel they too will lose from this

rapid move towards Russia. TRANSLATION: This is really an

anxious time for us, we have been through a lot of difficulties. So it

isn't easy to say whether things are going to get better now. But the

thing is, we are worried, and judging by Russian policy today, our

worst fears may come through. For Crimean Tatas, a memory of this man,

who deported their entire people after the war haunts them. And

Stalin's grand design has its timely reminder for Europe too. For it was

here in 1945 at the Crimean resort that there was an earlier

acquiscence to Moscow that had far-reaching consequences. Britain

and America went along here with the idea that each great power should

have its sphere of influence. And many people saw that as consigning

millions in Eastern Europe to the mercy of the Kremlin. And that's why

Yalta has some concomfortable resonances today. It is this concept

that Russia can pretty much do what it wants in its own back yard. But

history has a more positive meaning for Russians, so much so it is used

and abused in today's messages to the Crimean people. Can it inform

the future and carry them through the crisis, we asked some students?

I love the Ukrainian language, the Ukrainian poets and music. But I

don't like the Government at the moment. I don't like what they do. I

think this is really pretty good idea to go, it is joining Russia at

the moment. Most of may've friends are not happy at all, Crimea must be

with the People divide on whether Russia has flouted its power here.

But in the actions of the past day the Kremlin has shown it will

weather the storm and drive over the opposition to the annexation of

Crimea. The organisation which is supposed to keep an eye on the

police has looked at itself and found itself rather wanting. In

particular it notices that the families of people who have died

while in police custody consider it hard hearted and lacking in

compassion. The Independent Police Complaints Commisssion, acknowledges

a raft of faults but doesn't call for itself to be abolished. Others

are saying that is absolutely what ought to happen. The strongest

criticism in today's report is how the IPCC engage with bereaved

families in its investigations. Families complained that

communication lacked empathy, sensitively and compassion, some

felt they and those who had died were wrongly characterised or

unfairly judged. There were also questions about how independent the

IPCC actually is? The family of Sean Rigg have been the most vocal in

their criticism. In 2008 Sean Rigg died after a cardiac arrest while

being held at Brixton Police Station. Unusually the IPCC had to

set up a review into its own investigation after an inquest into

Mr Rigg's death found that police officers had used unsuitable force.

Something the first report failed to recognise. There is no trust in the

police. At all within the community and particularly within the black

community. Because they are corrupt, they are racist and they don't care.

They are killing us. They are killing us. This self-scrutiny by

the IPCC follows criticism of the police itself over the undercover

infiltration of political groups. The same force is still recovering

from the damage to its reputation caused by the plebgate scandal. The

IPCC itself had to apologise to the family of Mark Duggan, whose death

in 2011 led to riots in London and other cities. The IPCC had wrongly

told the media that he had fired at police before he was shot. Earlier

this month the shadow Home Secretary Yvette Cooper called for the body to

be abolished saying the system wasn't working and the IPCC has

failed or proved irrelevant too many times, and lacks the powers and

authorities it needs. We have the chair of the Independent

Police Complaints Commisssion, the IPCC and she is here. We will come

to Yvette Cooper's point in a moment. You took over in 2012. Were

you surprised at how bad the situation was that you found there?

No I wasn't actually. I was immediately struck by how

demoralised people were. People felt battered by criticism and often when

people feel battered by criticism they retreat into being quite

defensive. But you can't deny the things the IPCC has achieved and

will continue to achieve. We don't always get it right. By no means do

we get it wrong. There have been some pretty aggrieguos error,

particularly that Mark Duggan had fired at the police when he hadn't?

How does It happens, it was not in the news release and it led to

changes. You did ask around how it happened? It was a comment who

thought that was what happened when asked by a journalist. But it wasn't

in the official press release. It was completely wrong. It wasn't

right, absolutely. It is a classic example of when these things happen,

these crises, of only saying those things that you absolutely know to

be the case. It couldn't happen again. I would hope it wouldn't. We

have made huge steps to make sure it wouldn't happen again. You look at

this report it is pretty scathing, it talks about a lack of

thoroughness, a lack of robust analysis of evidence, a lack of

sufficient challenge to police accounts. These are serious points?

This is our review of ourselves. You are looking yourself in the face and

not liking what you see? We are acknowledging the times we haven't

got it right. That doesn't mean that is always the case. For example

there are 20 metropolitan police officers dismissed as a result of

IPCC investigations. There are fewer than half the deaths in custody. We

need to look at when we don't get it right, why is that? We have

identified some of the areas we need to look at. You do accept there is a

perception among some people that the job of your organisation is to

explain away the behaviour of the police rather than to investigate

it? I don't think that is true. Of course you would say that? That's

not the kind of organisation I would lead or want to lead. That is not

where I'm coming from. I think sometimes we haven't been

sufficiently probing, that is absolutely right. I think sometimes

the first account and the most coherent account you get is the

account from the police. That doesn't make it wrong but it doesn't

make it right. Investigating the police is a really hard job. And

mainly carried out by ex-policemen? Not mainly at all. Around a quarter

of our investigators are ex-police officers, and about 40% all together

have worked for the police. But we have independent commissioners who

have never worked for the police sitting on top of every

investigation. We have strengthened their role. We are building a

culture of challenge and a culture where we can challenge each other

internally to challenge others and challenge externally. How much do

you cost a year? At the moment our core putting is about ?32 million

and money for Hillsborough. How much is that spent investigating? A lot

of it is spent investigating and dealing with appeals against the

police. We deal with 6,000 appeals every year against police

investigations, we uphold the appellant half the times. In 47% of

cases the police have got it wrong in investigations and we tell them

so. It is the case, isn't it, that the majority of cases that are

recommended to you can't investigate? We haven't got the

resources to do it, no. We will be giving more resources. It is an

enormous chasam too isn't it? It is something that really troubles us,

every week we get 70 cases referred by the police. We can't deal with as

many as we want to. How many of that 70 do you reckon you can deal with?

Perhaps one or two, we are dealing with 130 all together. That is all

we can do. But we are getting more resources to do more. Would you not

conclude that from that Yvette Cooper is probably righ that it is

about time you were wound up and replaced with something a bit more

efficient? It is not efficiency it is time we were given more resources

to do the job the public want us to. If you get 2,000 cases referred to

you a year and you can investigate a few hundred. It may be a case of

efficiency or lack of eCirbedcy? We are also doing 6 thousand appeals

every year from investigations -- 6,000 appeals every year where the

local police have got it wrong. We don't just do investigations we do

the appeals also. We were never sufficiently resourced and now we

are getting them. When do you reckon you will be able to do 100% of the

cases you are asked to do? I would hope as more resources come in the

next three years we will be able to do the serious and sensitive cases

the public expects an independent body to look at. That will take

three years to get to what you think you would like to get to let alone

100%? It will take more resource and more resource means you have to

recruit more staff. Even when I get more money I can't send pound notes

to interview, we have to employ the right staff in the right place. No

business in the world will say it can expand massively within a year.

You have to do it properly and you have to get the right people in the

right place. I do not want to be doing investigations to the poor

quality that the police are doing many investigations just now I want

to be able to do them properly and well. Otherwise we will get exactly

the same kind of reports that we are having. How many poor-quality

investigations by the police do you come across then? As I say 47% of

those cases appealed to us, we uphold the appeal on the ground the

police haven't done it well enough. How was it then that things got so

bad in the police, and so demoralised in your organisation

that we got to this mess? I think again when the IPCC was set up, it

was doing something that had never been done before, independently

investigating the police. Nobody had tried doing that before. It faced

considerable resistance from the police, and from the beginning it

was underresourced for the job it the public expected. That is a

triple whammy. In the face of that to have done what the IPCC has done.

To have a lot of people not walking the streets of police uniform

because of investigations, to have the number of deaths in custody more

than halved. To have considerable changes in police practice. Those

are real results. But we have to get it right consistently and across the

board. This is the last gasp, if you don't get it right now you will be

wound up? Absolutely, we have a huge challenge and opportunity. More

resores but more expected. I know that and all our staff know that.

When we ask our staff, what do you want to do, what gets them out of

bed in the morning, they say trust today hold the police to accountice

to account. That is an organisation worth working for. At last someone

has come up with a scheme to save the BBC, an organisation everyone

says they love in principle, but which fewer and fewer of us seem

keen to put into practice. Comeeth the hour cometh the man. Noel

Edmonds has talked about buying it with investors. He has denied that

Keith keg win will become controller of BBC Four and says he's entirely

serious. What do you reckon is the notional value of the BBC if it can

be boughtC Four and says he's entirely serious. What do you reckon

is the notional value of the BBC if it can be bought? I have no idea,

because the components are changing every week. I have no idea and we

have run models on what the BBC would be worth today and at the end

of the next round of cuts and what it could be worth on the open

market. And those figures are roughly what? I'm not going to say

at this particular time, for obvious business reasons. So you have got,

when you say "we", you have got a consortium of people together have

you? Yes. Project Rieth, predates everything that has recently

happened for the BBC, by that I mean the Jimmy Savile scandal, and the

George Enthwhistle in for 60 days. The matter of executive pay and what

people were entitled to. Attacks by eminent broadcasters on the BBC. And

of course the announcement that BBC will be cut. The project actually

started about 18 months ago. Who are these people? Like-minded people,

people who don't want to see Britain lose the BBC and that is how serious

it is. Who are they? Like-minded people, what, with the greatest of

respect, lots of blokes with beards presenting afternoon television

series, what is the like-minded people? I won't talk about the

components of this project in that kind of detail. There will be the

right time to do that. We believe that the BBC is sleepwalking its way

to destruction, and the BBC will be lost to Britain. We do not think

that is right. Mr Blobby is the man to save it? Well, Jeremy, I like the

little extras that you are throwing into this but the situation is very,

very serious. You yourself has said, John Humphreys has said in the last

48 hours. This is a really serious situation, where the BBC because of

its triple problems and the way it is funded, historic baggage and the

way in which it is used as a political football. Its future, its

very future is in doubt. What would it be like under your consortium,

what would the BBC do that it doesn't do now or not do that it

does do now? I doubt it you have the time for me to go into the kind of

detail that clearly you want. But you have got to look at where the

BBC is currently going to try to imagine how you would make it fit

for purpose. It is not fit for purpose in the Apple age and

Microsoft. The age very large businesses that would love to pick

over the carcass of the BBC. As quite clearly the BBC is recognising

it is the wrong shape. What would you cut? I'm not going to say what

we will cut. Because we don't know what will be left. Is BBC Four going

to go in a moment, will we lose the two children's channels. What I

would say is because of the historic baggage, we have got a ridiculous

situation where the license fee now covers the World Service. Most

people in Britain don't know how to get the World Service. There are

50,000 people speaking gaelic, Welsh language has been declining over ten

years and the BBC spends ?48 million on that. Clearly you have to look at

making the BBC relevant to the Internet age. Bad news for the

Welsh. What about orchestras? That is not true, because they would

still have Welsh services as Scotland would. It is the extra

things that most people these days can get on-line. And the BBC,

frankly, if it owned up to it, is lumbered with it. They don't want to

be paying for the World Service, I have massive love and respect for

the BBC, but the problem is it doesn't have enough control over its

over future. It is a patient that is terminally ill and it needs another

force from outside to cure it and make it fit for a world that we

couldn't have envisaged ten years ago. Ten years ago we haven't have

YouTube or Netflix, we didn't have iPads or these kinds of things. The

way to get the BBC in ten years' time if it was, and it does get an

extension of the royal charter. We will be getting our entertainment,

manufactures and education in a totally different way. The BBC has

to be configured to do that. Clearly that has to happen. There has to be

a huge change. But please don't be as secretive about this as you have

been about investors and promming plans and the rest -- programme

plans and the rest of it. Are you currently paying the TV license fee?

I don't have a TV license. Is that because you don't have a television?

I don't watch, except on catch-up. On't have a TV license. Is that

because you don't have a television? I don't watch, except on catch-up.

That's it for tonight, if you were hoping for the film on FGM it will

be on later on in the week. Clarissa Dixon Wright died today,

she was well known for the show Two Fat Ladies, but around our office

she's most fondly recalled for keeping hungry hacks going through

some long winter evenings a few years ago. Good night. Right you

lot, here you are. You were