11/04/2014 Newsnight


11/04/2014

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conditions. Mind you, it all adds up to the annual intrigue that is the

:00:00.:00:16.

Masters. in a courtroom in Pretoria. Another

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session in a courtroom in Pretoria. Another

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millions of viewers. Today the prosecution asked Oscar Pistorius

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why he prosecution asked Oscar Pistorius

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coming from the bathroom. When you heard the narcs you

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coming from the bathroom. When you discuss the noise with her. You

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didn't say "Reeva did discuss the noise with her. You

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not. Viewers are left with pictures broadcast instead of the images of

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him. broadcast instead of the images of

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feel unfamiliar and uncomfortable. But audience interest is high. The

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BBC has been showing live testimony every day, as has Sky which has

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broadcast an evening highlights programme. Foreign news, in general,

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tends to attract lower ratings, but the mix of celebrity and dramatic

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court footage has made this one of the few exceptions.

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The first case to get this global exposure involved another sportsman.

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The OJ Simpson trial made stars of the lawyers involved. The gloves

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don't fit, do you understand that, don't fit. We have seen the

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televised soap opera that was the Amanda Knox trial. And in the Hague

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the conviction of Charles Taylor, but that also involves an element of

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celebrity at times. The man questioning Naomi Campbell in that

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courtroom said it is inevitable that fully televised trials will one day

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reach our shores. I think it is a very good idea. One has to realise

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that the courtroom in a sense belongs to the public at large. The

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jury are there as our representatives, and it seems to me

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that it is important that the public see how the process operates, I

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think it is important in democratic society that the law is seen in

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operation to its full extent. And not just the snippets which are

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currently available in the press or on the 6.00 News. So far attempted

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to film inside British courts have been very limited. The outcome of

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cases at the Supreme Court and some limited Appeal Court sessions have

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been shown, but this is hardly the OJ Simpson trial. The kind of dry

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judgments and verdicts shown in courts like this one are, let's face

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it, never going to be a huge box-office attraction, it is clearly

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large criminal trials, like the Pistorius case, which broadcasters

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would dearly love to see on screen. We are starting to see that happen.

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Last year cameras were allowed inside a murder trial for the first

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time in Edinburgh, where Scottish law leaves the decision to film up

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to the judge. Under plans for England and Wales the judge's

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sentencing remarks could be filmed, many barristers are wary of going

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any further. The public will get to see select pieces of the trial, bits

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and pieces that are salacious, that shows who broadcast want to focus

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on. They will get a selective idea of the trial, if we're not careful

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we are going to find there is going to be trial by public and in days of

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social media the storm that can create from an imbalanced view of

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the trial might infect the justice system. An example of transparent

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justice, or a media circus, the Pistorius trial shows there is a

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huge appetite for this time of reality television. Whether it is a

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healthy appetite is another matter. With us now is the barrister and

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presenter, Clive Anderson, who is in favour of cameras in court. And

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Julian Young a solicitor advocate who thinks they turn courtrooms into

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a circus. There is a circus in the Pistorius case as an example, do you

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really want to see that kind of thing in this country? Yes, it is a

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gripping but grizzly trial, I would like to see how the trial is going

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on. At the end of the case there will be a decision and verdict. In

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this case it is a judge with her two assessors, in an English trial it

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would be woo likely to be -- would likely to be a jury. We would like a

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notion will have we would agree with it or justice. What is so wrong with

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it? It sensationalises and trivialises something where a person

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could lose their liberty or good name. Even if they are acquitted the

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idea of no smoke without fire, if whoever watches it sees the

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highlights and decides I think he's guilty and it doesn't matter what

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the jury thought, and goes out and tries to exact revenge. There are

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people who are vulnerable. Witnesses who have never given evidence before

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who don't want to give evidence. There are people who may want to

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grandstand, they could be lawyers, a judge, or the defendant or the

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defendant's friends in the public gallery, to cut that off

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unexpectedly gives a false impression of what is really going

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on. In a sense what we already see in the newspapers and reports, they

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are already an edited version of what has happened. What would be so

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different about this perhaps it would be better because people will

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be able to watch proceedings live and uncut? Who wants to sit and

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watch, for example, an expert give evidence, highly technical evidence,

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maybe for several hours and be cross-examined, it doesn't tell you

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how the system works, the standard of proof, the burden of proof, the

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responsibility of the judge and the jury. It would be so boring. That

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bit doesn't tell you but the rest of it does. Juries go along -- jurors

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go along thinking it is like trials in American films, there will be

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advocates walking up and down asking questions, there will be objections

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sustained, at the very least you might concede this will be an

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educative process for potential jurors to see how the courtrooms

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work. You can have education as a mock trial and education for

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children in schools about what happens to a Crown Court. You do

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mock trials but you show it to dozens of people at a time, this is

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for millions of people to see. They will not see what is actually

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happening all the time, they don't sit from a whole period of time from

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10-1, from 2-4. 30, from beginning to end, they would be bored out of

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their minds. Can I raise a point about televising parliament, from

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1975 they put radio microphones into the House of Lords, it took until

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1990s for the House of Commons to say OK. Young viewers must be

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thinking not having cameras in parliament, you mean Prime

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Minister's Question Time went on without the public. All these same

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questions were raised about parliament. How many people watch

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BBC Parliament, relatively view. Many, many people it could be, but

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there is a very important point, does it not risk people changing

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their behaviour in a way that politicians change their behaviour

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when there is a camera around. People all behave differently when

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there are cameras around. Couldn't that affect the outcome of the case?

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There is a point there. Those things were said about MPs in parents I

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don't think anybody can now say whether MPs' behaviour has got

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better or worse. This is the justice system not rowdy

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debate. Lots of other countries do this. Louis Woodward was an English

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nanny on trial in America, Boston, Massachusetts, there was some doubts

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about how fair the trial was. As a result there was a lot of interest.

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If she had been on trial in Boston Lincolnshire we would have never

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have seen it or had the interest, and she would have spent rather

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longer in prison than she had to. Would you say that an American case

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like that, or in the South African justice system, would you contend

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their systems don't work or are as good as our's because they have

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allowed a camera in? It is whether or not you can educate the public

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what are you going to tell and teach them. And the dangers that may flow

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from the public seeing something. Lith let's take a defendant who has

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a difficult personal -- let's take a defendant who has a very difficult

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personal life, the young Mr kiss President Chiracs he has social

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disadvantages and he's disabled, if other inmates in a prison got to

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watch that on television and realise he's weak f he's convicted and sent

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to prison, especially in this country where prisoners are quite

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often very cruel, the danger would be they would pick upon that person,

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having been put into the prison system. Are you just not rummaging

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around for reasons not to make a change. I'm frightened of "Legal

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Idol" a television spectacle, where you can vote for a guilty or not

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guilty verdict. I don't think that is appropriate, the judge and the

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jury will still take the decision, it is just, it is are a public place

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a courtroom, as it is there is a public gallery, if people want to

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interfere with witnesses or find out about defendants they can be there

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any way. It is reported in the papers. If they are that interested

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they can go to court and watch the real thing without it being

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televised. Television is not real. It is in another dimension. It is a

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bit more immediate than waiting for Clive Coleman to come out on to the

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street and say there was nasty question asked there and there was

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hesitation. We want to see the actual process. Just very briefly to

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both of you. Do you think, given the way the flow of information is

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speeding up all the time, anybody walking down the street with a

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smartphone can take a picture and tweet what they like about who they

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see outside the Old Bailey or anywhere else, do you think actually

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you will be able to hold the line, this is going to happen one day

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isn't it? It may happen one day, but there will have to be a lot of

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checks and balances to make sure it is completely fair and there are no

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dangers to the concept of justice. I think it will happen one day and in

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ten years' time we will play back this conversation and think how

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backward-looking I was, you can tweet from court now, has allowed

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ahead of televising it. We will keep care of this tape of this discussion

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tonight and have a look in a decade's time. Thank you very much

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for coming in. More official diplomatic wrangling

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is planned for Ukraine. The European Union confirmed in the last few

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hours there will be a meeting between Russia, Ukraine, the United

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States and the EU in Geneva next Thursday. But talking hasn't exactly

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done much so far. NATO nowadays 40,000 Russian troops have been

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moved to Ukraine's borders. Its secretary-general, has urged Russia

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to pull back. I think it should be that Russia pulls back its troops

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and contributes to a de-escalation of the situation. Our diplomatic

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editor is with us now. What evidence has NATO got for the troops all

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massing up on the boarder in a rather menacing way? It has been

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going on for a few weeks. There have been open source things in the

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Russian media. But the latest is the release of these pictures. NATO has

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got these from commercial satellites, it is not the American

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big bird that looks down. These are commercial low-operated --

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commercial low-operated satellites, they have shown a picture of an

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airfield to the north-east of ucreate. You look at that and think

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you can't see much there. If you go right in on the boxed areas

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highlight bid the NATO analyst, you can see on the left of frame the

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darker shapes, the fighters, on the right the lighter shapes the

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bombers. NATO said there was no planes at all at this airfield a few

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months ago before the crisis blew up. Another example, what NATO says

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is a Russian motor rifle regiment, that is several thousand men. You

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can see the armoureded vehicles neatly lined up on the left of frame

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and long lines of trucks and other so called B-vehicles on the right.

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Russia said the pictures were taken months ago. NATO has counted, anyone

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can look at this commercial eptity, digital globe and look at these

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pictures for themselves and establish when they were taken. It

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shows the difficulties of using intelligence evidence to make a

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political case. Absolutely, should we be alarmed by seeing these images

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and now there are going to be more talks, what can we expect to happen

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next? I think interestingly we have seen statements today from Sergei

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Lavrov, the Russian foreign minister and the acting Prime Minister of

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Ukraine that show the two sides squaring up before these talks. We

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get a pretty clear idea now that Russia's agenda is to get this

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interim Ukrainian Government to agree to constitutional changes that

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will give this area where the pro--Putin, Russian demonstrators in

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the east and south of Ukraine have taken buildings and steps, it will

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give them considerable autonomy. The Russian agenda before the elections

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plan for May 25th is lock in constitutional change to give those

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areas a veto over any area closer to the EU or NATO.

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Thank you very much indeed. Now the world's biggest election looks

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likely to be won by a politician who boasts of a humble small town

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background. He's the favourite to beat the latest son of the Gandhi

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dynasty. His own history is hardly without question. He was in charge

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of gut Gujarat province after 1,000 Muslims were killed. Although it was

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not proven he looked the other way, many have warned against him taking

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charge. India, the world's largest democracy and home to more than one.

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Two billion people. It is one of the fastest-growing economies in the

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world. Yet 400 million people live on less than a pound a day. It is

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sending missions to Mars, whilst a quarter of households in the capital

:17:20.:17:27.

don't have a regular water supply. It is a nuclear-armed major

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political player. Predicted to be the world's third-largest economy by

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2030. That is a why who leads this country is so important. If you

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believe the polls so far this is likely to be the country's next

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leader. The deeply controversial and devisive, head of the BJP. He's

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credited with turning around the economy in his area, and given rise

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to Modi mania. He's the man many hold responsible of allowing the

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massacre of 1,000 people, mostly Muslim, in riots in Gujarat in 2002.

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They started after a fire broke out on a train carrying Hindu pilgrim,

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killing 60 people. Local Muslims were blamed and Hindus caught

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revenge. He stands accused of failing to stop the bloodshed and

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even encouraging the violence. He's always denied the claims and an

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investigation cleared him. What happens in India is also being

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keenly watched by the one. Four million British Indians living here

:18:48.:18:51.

in the UK. He remains as controversial here as he does in

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India. Writing in today's Guardian, well known British Indians like

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Salman Rushdie, have said an India under him would be bad news for all

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Indians. But after ten years of rule by a weakened Congress Party, voters

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are ready for a change. His supporters say an India with him at

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the helm would mean a stronger, more decisive and economically robust

:19:19.:19:23.

potential superpower. If he comes to power, it will be a right-ward shift

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in the politics of the country. That's very, very clear. That is why

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corporate India is totally backing him. We may well have a Government

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that will want to open up the economy, maybe much more than it has

:19:41.:19:46.

and invite foreign direct investment, maybe it will mean more

:19:47.:19:49.

political stability than we have seen in the last four or five years.

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The key question for many Indians is whether he will be able to unite

:19:57.:20:01.

this hugely diverse country, and make the most of its enormous

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economic potential. With us now is the chairman of Cobra beer speaking

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to us from India. With us in the studio is a member of the Black

:20:17.:20:21.

Sisters, one of the signatories for a letter of many cultural and

:20:22.:20:26.

artistic figures raising concerns about the man. Thank you for joining

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us. Even here in Britain many people are concerned about Modi as being a

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devisive figure. You can't deny he could potentially divide the

:20:40.:20:50.

country, can you? We are witnessing the world's largest directions, 800

:20:51.:20:55.

million voters, we went to a polling station and I saw electronic voting

:20:56.:20:59.

that we don't have in the UK, working brilliantly, and it is the

:21:00.:21:04.

Indian population engaging, there are turnouts in India of 66%, 67%,

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it was absolutely marvellous to see democracy in action. Indian

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democracy has worked in the past. When the BJP were in Government in

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2004, it was the India Shining Government, they created a lot of

:21:21.:21:23.

economic reforms, but they were not able to get re-elected and the

:21:24.:21:26.

Congress Party had been in Government for the past ten years.

:21:27.:21:30.

Now there seems to be a sentiment on the ground here in India that people

:21:31.:21:36.

want change and overall whoever I talk to there seems to be a

:21:37.:21:41.

consensus that Modi is most probably going to be the Prime Minister with

:21:42.:21:46.

the BJP possibly getting over 200 seats and with their Alliance

:21:47.:21:53.

partners getting over the 272 required to form a majority

:21:54.:21:57.

Government. It does seem as if he will be the next leader of the

:21:58.:22:01.

country. But he is devisive, there are suspicions about whether he

:22:02.:22:05.

looked the other way when those terrible riots in gunge Gujarat took

:22:06.:22:11.

place, do you accept there are concerns about his record? There is

:22:12.:22:17.

no question that he was very soon after he took over as chief minister

:22:18.:22:22.

of Gujarat, where he has been elected three times, soon after he

:22:23.:22:27.

became chief minister these awful, awful atrocities took place, which

:22:28.:22:31.

didn't just shock India but the world. Overall these years, over ten

:22:32.:22:38.

years, when his opponents have been in power, has not been convicted and

:22:39.:22:42.

Britain did not have relations with Gujarat as the founding chair of the

:22:43.:22:46.

UK Business Council, I was not allowed to take delegations to

:22:47.:22:51.

Gujarat. In 2012 Britain decided to reopen its links with Gujarat

:22:52.:22:57.

through the British Foreign Minister Hugo Swire, since 2012 we have had

:22:58.:23:05.

relations with him because he has not been convicted of anything. The

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courts have looked at it and it looks like he will win fairly and

:23:10.:23:15.

squarely in a vast exercise of democracy? I think he will be very,

:23:16.:23:21.

very dangerous, he poses a serious threat to the secular fabric of

:23:22.:23:25.

Indian democracy. The very democracy that Lord Villimoria praises for

:23:26.:23:33.

functions is the very democracy that he poses a threat to. He and his RSS

:23:34.:23:41.

and his Hindu right, nationalist, supremacist party that he belongs to

:23:42.:23:45.

pose a real threat because of the very ideolgical framework from which

:23:46.:23:51.

they operate. This idea that we can praise Indian democracy for

:23:52.:23:55.

functioning without looking at where the threats to that democracy is

:23:56.:24:02.

coming from is simply niave What is it, you say his ideas are a threat,

:24:03.:24:07.

which ideas and why? He was shaped and nutured by the RSS, which is a

:24:08.:24:12.

right-wing extremist Hindu supremacist party. A party whose

:24:13.:24:24.

members have actually admired German and Italian fascism, and those who

:24:25.:24:34.

assassinated Gandhi. The people who founded India had a vision of India

:24:35.:24:40.

as an incluesive, plural democracy and this is the very ideas that Moi

:24:41.:24:48.

and his aides, and his Hindu cohorts and aides are trying to destroy.

:24:49.:24:52.

They hide behind this idea that he has presided over an economic

:24:53.:24:57.

miracle in Gujarat, that is simply not true. Those are strong

:24:58.:25:00.

accusations to make about him. But many people do appear to have

:25:01.:25:06.

concerns about his views, will the British Government, should the

:25:07.:25:12.

British Government turn a blind eye to those concerns with regard to

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important trade with India? I don't think anyone is turning a blind eye,

:25:20.:25:24.

I think that where he's concerned and the BJP they will look back to

:25:25.:25:27.

that time when they were in Government ten years ago and they

:25:28.:25:31.

were not re-elected because it was seen they were not being inclusive

:25:32.:25:34.

enough with their policies, the India Shining, getting on to the

:25:35.:25:39.

growth path, and I require the growth rates hitting 8%. But unless

:25:40.:25:44.

it reached out and was inclusive they didn't get elected. The party

:25:45.:25:47.

in January, a party that didn't exist a year ago got elected to run

:25:48.:25:53.

the City of Delhi, the capital of India. It didn't last very long

:25:54.:25:58.

because it was unable to deliver. So Mohdi will be judged if he becomes

:25:59.:26:01.

Prime Minister on his ability to deliver. India is a secular and

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plurist country. Nobody can run it without recognising it is a secular

:26:15.:26:19.

country. It will be governance on the ground and excuse of the

:26:20.:26:22.

governance, that is what he will be judged off. He says he is man of

:26:23.:26:27.

action and he will encourage business and investment. The Gujarat

:26:28.:26:31.

community in the UK is a very important part of the UK. The Indian

:26:32.:26:36.

community in the UK contributes a huge amount to the UK economy. If it

:26:37.:26:40.

is good news for the UK and India and good economic news that will

:26:41.:26:50.

benefit both countries. We have been beaten by the clock, we must leave

:26:51.:26:55.

it there. Perhaps when I'm famous and my diary is discovered, people

:26:56.:26:59.

will understand the torment of being a 13 and three quarter-year-old

:27:00.:27:05.

undiscovered intellectual. Adrian Mol, he's fictional -- Mole's

:27:06.:27:12.

fictional diary was discovered and made its author, Sue Townend a

:27:13.:27:20.

fortune. She passed away yesterday. The spirit of 1980s suburban England

:27:21.:27:24.

leapt from her page, captured with a sometimes touching but often spiky

:27:25.:27:29.

accuracy. This report has been compiled by Stephen Smith, aged 39

:27:30.:27:41.

plus VAT! Just my luck. Spots on my chin for the first day of the new

:27:42.:27:47.

year. He counts his spots in front of the mirror, he keeps a chart. A

:27:48.:27:52.

spot chart. Sort of a record! He measures his ears with his geometry

:27:53.:27:57.

set to see how far they are sticking out this week. Measures other things

:27:58.:28:01.

as well? He does, that are below the belt, yes. There is a new girl in

:28:02.:28:07.

our council tax she sits next to me in geography, she's all right. Her

:28:08.:28:12.

name is Pandora, but she likes to be called Bogs. Don't ask me why.

:28:13.:28:21.

Adrian Mole was the hugist thing when I was younger, and every single

:28:22.:28:26.

person I have ever met has read it as well, they have had all had the

:28:27.:28:30.

same reaction, and it is like oh my God I'm Adrian Mole, I think I'm

:28:31.:28:34.

better than anybody else here, I have a destiny outside this estate,

:28:35.:28:38.

I see through grown-ups and what they are. She was born in 1946, she

:28:39.:28:46.

left school at 15, she married, had three kid, she was authentic. There

:28:47.:28:48.

is something she said that always struck me, she said "I am

:28:49.:28:56.

working-class". No matter how many Prada handbags she had, she would

:28:57.:29:01.

never forget what it was to be poor. She was poor. "I was given a glass

:29:02.:29:10.

of Bulls Wood wine and felt a grown up, I talked like a consumate

:29:11.:29:16.

professional for an hour and then my mother talked about a sniff of a

:29:17.:29:21.

cork". For ages I thought I could only write a book about feminism if

:29:22.:29:25.

I sit at the writing desk assay all the right words and do all the

:29:26.:29:31.

research. When I realised hi to -- I had to tell the story from a dick

:29:32.:29:35.

ebb teenage girl that book wrote itself. And the voice of me is How

:29:36.:29:41.

To Be A woman, is just Adrian Mole with at this times. One day I was

:29:42.:29:44.

sitting with one of my daughters watching the tele, and there was

:29:45.:29:50.

Mole, and the news item was the new cabinet, Thatcher's new cabinet and

:29:51.:29:56.

there was John Major! I thought I laughed and said that is Mole. To me

:29:57.:30:00.

Adrian Mole ended up running the country. "I have lived under Tory

:30:01.:30:08.

rule for most of my life, as dawn breaks, I predict that new Labour

:30:09.:30:13.

will scrape in with a tiny majority, possibly three." The Cappuccino

:30:14.:30:24.

Years about Mole at 30-and-a-half, and new Labour have just come to the

:30:25.:30:33.

power. The Cappuccino Years a metaphor for new Labour, a lot of

:30:34.:30:37.

froth and not much coffee. She was also rather good at sex. I think

:30:38.:30:45.

Pandora is Helen of Troy who ended up as a Blair babe. Those touches

:30:46.:30:52.

are really very delicate, people will turn back and see a social

:30:53.:30:57.

historical register. Tony Blair is dedicated to the principle of

:30:58.:31:01.

women's rights and the representation of women in top jobs

:31:02.:31:05.

in and out of politics. You know perfectly well it will be jobs for

:31:06.:31:13.

the boys as usual. Not if I can help it Jeremy! That is the most sexually

:31:14.:31:18.

arousing thing I have seen on television, since Barbarap Windsor

:31:19.:31:24.

lost her bra in Carry On Camping. People talk about the classic novels

:31:25.:31:29.

of the 1980s and Martin Amis, money, and that is the classic British

:31:30.:31:33.

novel I think the classic novel was written by a single mum who didn't

:31:34.:31:37.

go to university, and it is Adrian Mole, everything you need to know

:31:38.:31:41.

about Britain at that time. Flannel we hope you don't have to change the

:31:42.:31:49.

plans for the weekend. Reports have come in that schools are ending the

:31:50.:31:54.

practice of letting the children take home the bear at the weekend,

:31:55.:31:59.

because of parents vying to show the bear the most sophisticated time. By

:32:00.:32:02.

chance it was Newsnight's chance to look after a bear at the weekend, we

:32:03.:32:07.

wouldn't dream of trying to outdo anyone, I bet your weekend isn't as

:32:08.:32:10.

good as this. Getting cold out there largely clear

:32:11.:32:53.

skies across England and

:32:54.:32:54.

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