14/04/2014 Newsnight


14/04/2014

Are Russian troops posing as Ukrainians? The backlash after Nigel Evans. The hacking trial. Saved from death row. Michael Morpurgo on WWI. With Jeremy Paxman.


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Transcript


LineFromTo

Zero Bottleneck are the towns of eastern

:00:00.:00:14.

Ukraine falling to the mobs or Special Forces. And town after town,

:00:15.:00:29.

Following Nigel Evans's acquittal, a Tory MP rejects accusations that she

:00:30.:00:37.

tried to get the complainants to call the police. I have offered to

:00:38.:00:42.

step down as an MP if they felt I pressured them into making an

:00:43.:00:47.

allegation. We will ask Nigel Evans's friend, what should happen

:00:48.:00:51.

next? The story of a horse conscripted into battle has made a

:00:52.:00:58.

global conflict real for many. We ask the author whether stories about

:00:59.:01:03.

the First World War help or hinder or understanding of it.

:01:04.:01:19.

The confrontation in Ukraine has worsened today. Much of the rest of

:01:20.:01:24.

the world wrings its hands, but plainly doesn't have a clue what to

:01:25.:01:28.

do about a far array country of which they know little. The European

:01:29.:01:34.

Union is offering financial help, Washington says it is assessing the

:01:35.:01:40.

situation, and the UN Security Council whitters. The Ukraine says

:01:41.:01:45.

it has asked for UN peace keepers but Russia holds the veto on their

:01:46.:01:57.

deployment. We're We saw another deadline for

:01:58.:02:02.

protesters to vacate buildings come and go this morning. We saw a threat

:02:03.:02:06.

from Kiev to conduct an anti-terrorist operation as they

:02:07.:02:09.

called it, no action, the protesters are still there, by my account

:02:10.:02:16.

occupying 12 public buildings across the region. Trading accusations

:02:17.:02:20.

internationally, the US, the EU and the Ukrainians themselves have said

:02:21.:02:23.

it is Russia stirring up trouble here, causing the protestors and

:02:24.:02:27.

even accusing them of having their own forces on the grounds. The

:02:28.:02:37.

Russians answering and saying it is the Ukrainians who are causing the

:02:38.:02:40.

trouble by not listening to the demands of the protesters. We are at

:02:41.:02:45.

a dangerous moment, we have 35,000-40,000 Russian troops just

:02:46.:02:49.

the other side of the border here and the protesters holed up in the

:02:50.:02:53.

building down the road for me and not appearing to back down. It is a

:02:54.:02:56.

very difficult moment for Kiev. We have seen news that President Putin

:02:57.:03:01.

has phoned Barack Obama and asked him to restrain the Kiev

:03:02.:03:04.

authorities. There is a real threat of war here. Now the Russians have

:03:05.:03:09.

flatly denied that they have got any troops here taking part, Special

:03:10.:03:13.

Forces, taking part in the seizure of these buildings. And we haven't

:03:14.:03:18.

seen widespread, what were call little green men that we saw in

:03:19.:03:23.

Crimea, stoney-faced and well-disciplined troops, obviously

:03:24.:03:26.

Russian soldiers, despite denials. We haven't seen those widely here.

:03:27.:03:31.

But who are the people taking over all these public buildings over the

:03:32.:03:36.

past weekend and today today, I have been travelling an the region and

:03:37.:03:41.

watching events unfold. A provincial police station in eastern Ukraine.

:03:42.:03:46.

On the streets outside there is battle for control. A shot rings

:03:47.:03:55.

out, this was on Saturday morning were it all began. That man in the

:03:56.:04:02.

blue jacket is a local journalist. The mob has decided's an enemy of

:04:03.:04:08.

their cause. In towns across this region angry pro-Russian protesters

:04:09.:04:11.

have been taking over Government buildings. We arrived here just

:04:12.:04:19.

afterwards, our car was stopped by the same crowd. The protesters are

:04:20.:04:24.

extremely aggressive, they just saw us with our camera, they threatened

:04:25.:04:28.

us, they broke our memory chips, they told us to get back in the car

:04:29.:04:33.

and get out of here immediately. What is by now familiar pattern we

:04:34.:04:39.

got news that police stations were falling to protestors in other towns

:04:40.:04:44.

as well. We went to find the journalist that fled in search of

:04:45.:04:50.

safety. TRANSLATION: I will carry on, I'm used to this. I have had

:04:51.:04:53.

death threats, I have had threatening notes and text messages.

:04:54.:04:57.

Someone through a rock through the windscreen of my car. Russia has

:04:58.:05:02.

explicitly denied sending Special Forces into eastern Ukraine. But who

:05:03.:05:07.

were the men then who seized the police station? TRANSLATION: There

:05:08.:05:12.

were about 100 of them, 10-15 guys were clearly soldiers. They arrived

:05:13.:05:16.

in a mini- but I couldn't tell if they were Russian or -- a minibus, I

:05:17.:05:22.

couldn't tell if they were Russian or Ukrainian, the rest were local

:05:23.:05:26.

guys in military fatigues. We returned the next day, the

:05:27.:05:29.

protesters had barricaded themselves inside the police compound. We got

:05:30.:05:33.

permission to go in and film at what is becoming the centre of this

:05:34.:05:36.

rebellion. The men at the gate referred to their commander by his

:05:37.:05:42.

nickname "Slava", clearly these were local guys, not the Russian Special

:05:43.:05:47.

Forces on open display in Crimea. But they were armed. We saw at least

:05:48.:05:53.

a dozen men carrying Kalashnikov rifles and other firearms, weapons

:05:54.:05:56.

they appeared to have taken from the armoury inside t police station

:05:57.:06:01.

itself. These men said they were old friends from the local school. Some

:06:02.:06:08.

were still neighbours. There was nothing organised about it this man

:06:09.:06:13.

says, he's a carpenter and he heard what was happening on TV, jumped

:06:14.:06:19.

straight in a taxi and came here. His friend, a car mechanic, admits

:06:20.:06:23.

they did take some of the equipment out of the police station, just to

:06:24.:06:30.

defend themselves. All of them refused to recognise the new

:06:31.:06:33.

authorities in Kiev, they want a referendum on independence for the

:06:34.:06:41.

region. He says doesn't need Russia, America or England, he wants to be

:06:42.:06:46.

left in peace in his own country without someone telling him how to

:06:47.:06:51.

live his life. Today Kiev indicated it might consider some sort of

:06:52.:06:56.

referendum on autonomy. But it is also sending in military hardware,

:06:57.:07:03.

and for these citizens that is a scary thought. They have put up

:07:04.:07:07.

barricades on the roads into town in anticipation of an attack.

:07:08.:07:16.

TRANSLATION: Vladimir Putin help us, please. It is clear who he sees as

:07:17.:07:22.

the guarantor of his security. These local women are preparing Molotov

:07:23.:07:26.

cocktails, they say they are ready for a fight, but they are not

:07:27.:07:34.

Russian Special Forces. But who are these men? Seen here taking over the

:07:35.:07:41.

police station in the nearby town. Could these with the Russian Special

:07:42.:07:45.

Forces? They certainly look more disciplined and better armed than

:07:46.:07:49.

the local activists. Might this be the pattern? The men with the big

:07:50.:07:53.

guns go in first and then retreat leaving the locals to hold the

:07:54.:08:00.

building. It is clear that there are overlinked between some of the

:08:01.:08:02.

seperatists and Russian nationalist groups. This for example is

:08:03.:08:11.

Alexander Dugan, pick at the end here in South Ossetia, weeks before

:08:12.:08:16.

the Russians invaded Georgia. He's a Russian idealog, with links to the

:08:17.:08:22.

Kremlin, who relishes greater empire. Here he is in late March,

:08:23.:08:30.

giving advice over Skype to one of the leading rebels, in a

:08:31.:08:32.

conversation littered with words like "traitors" and "enemies", he

:08:33.:08:38.

tells the seperatists to organise local self-defence forces. Set up

:08:39.:08:42.

checkpoints and take control of the eastern border he advises. There is

:08:43.:08:50.

no suggestion that this particular activist or Dugan have been involved

:08:51.:08:53.

in the seizure of Government buildings, but this conversation

:08:54.:08:57.

closely mirrors the thinking here inside seperatist headquarters in

:08:58.:09:09.

the centre. At this meeting seperatists discuss their plans,

:09:10.:09:14.

include seizing control of airports, military installations and those

:09:15.:09:18.

border posts. They were clear who they would turn to if Kiev attacked

:09:19.:09:26.

in response. TRANSLATION: We will call on Russia for help, on Belarus,

:09:27.:09:32.

or Kazakhstan, or Georgia, I know plenty of people who are sick and

:09:33.:09:38.

tired of what happened after their revolution. Here the protesters

:09:39.:09:41.

remain in control of the police station, the seperatist now occupy a

:09:42.:09:45.

dozen buildings across the region. What happens now here inside this

:09:46.:09:49.

police compound is absolutely crucial to the future of this

:09:50.:09:54.

country. If this stand-off can some how be resolved peacefully, then

:09:55.:09:59.

there is hope for a united Ukraine east and west together. If this

:10:00.:10:05.

place is stormed, if these barricades are broken down and there

:10:06.:10:08.

are mass casualties, the ramifications of that will be felt

:10:09.:10:13.

hard and for a long time to come. Kiev is losing control. But any

:10:14.:10:17.

crackdown could become the pretext for a Russian invasion. One false

:10:18.:10:25.

move could lead to war. Our guest is a specialist in the

:10:26.:10:30.

Ukraine at the foreign affairs think Stanning, Chatham House, we have the

:10:31.:10:43.

a representative from the Russian radio station from here. What is the

:10:44.:10:48.

hope here? To see Ukraine as a stable and neutral country, which it

:10:49.:10:55.

has stayed for the last 23 years of its independence. That is difficult

:10:56.:10:58.

when you haven't got a Government there? There is a Government and it

:10:59.:11:01.

was elected by a legitimate parliament that has been in place,

:11:02.:11:05.

taking into account the vacuum of power, when the fugutive President

:11:06.:11:16.

left. It is case of ruling? If it is case of ruling over the security and

:11:17.:11:22.

the externally ruled armed conflict. So you assert, it is just a claim?

:11:23.:11:26.

The claim is the Ukrainian Government will take control in the

:11:27.:11:30.

way of consolidating the power. It is clear now that some parts of

:11:31.:11:34.

eastern Ukraine would like their own revolution. But it has never been a

:11:35.:11:38.

home-grown seperatist movement. What does Russia want to see happen in

:11:39.:11:45.

eastern Ukraine then? I guess. Russia does believe in the

:11:46.:11:48.

territorial integrity of the country does it? That has been said, Crimea

:11:49.:11:54.

was a very special case, but I guess what it does want to see is

:11:55.:11:59.

stability in eastern Ukraine and respect for the rights of the people

:12:00.:12:04.

who live there that are mostly ethically and linguistically, I'm

:12:05.:12:06.

not sure about mostly, but significantly Russian. That is a

:12:07.:12:10.

wish that should be respected isn't it? It is clearly we don't have any

:12:11.:12:15.

evidence in the last months that any rights, any human rights of

:12:16.:12:20.

political rights, or ethnic minority rights, of people who we see on the

:12:21.:12:26.

screens have been violated. There is an OAC mission that said no rights

:12:27.:12:31.

have been violated. The instinct of the new authorities, the Kiev

:12:32.:12:33.

Government, right from the start, from the word go, were to limit the

:12:34.:12:38.

use of the Russian language, and actually that concerned Hungarians

:12:39.:12:42.

as well. And Hungary came out in protest against that and

:12:43.:12:45.

Switzerland, strangely, although I'm not aware of any Swiss community in

:12:46.:12:51.

the Ukraine. I don't think we can apply instincts towards a political

:12:52.:12:54.

reality. The political reality is such that the language law passed by

:12:55.:12:59.

the old President is in place. It was vetoed by the acted President.

:13:00.:13:05.

So any of the linguistic rights granted before are in place. But you

:13:06.:13:10.

would accept that there was an elected Government in your country,

:13:11.:13:14.

that it was deposed, that it is clearly incapable of asserting its

:13:15.:13:17.

will in the country. Would you accept all of that? You mean there

:13:18.:13:27.

was a legitimate Government of President Yanakovic who violated

:13:28.:13:33.

human rights. But there was a coup in your country? There was a coup in

:13:34.:13:39.

parliament and it has they had acknowledged this Government and it

:13:40.:13:44.

was voted in the parliament. The change to the, or the revert to the

:13:45.:13:54.

2004 coalition was agreed to by Yaakovic, the change in the

:13:55.:13:59.

constitution was adopted by Yushenko, the previous pro-western

:14:00.:14:08.

President. The The mamenings we see are covert operations to destablise.

:14:09.:14:13.

I wouldn't say it is a Russian plan to destable Ukraine. We have never

:14:14.:14:18.

seen militants before, we have never seen such images in the eastern part

:14:19.:14:23.

of Ukraine. And I mean these... You are seeing them now? These men could

:14:24.:14:28.

have been deployed either from Crimea, under Russian control or

:14:29.:14:32.

crossing the boarder from Russia. Or possibly they are local people?

:14:33.:14:37.

There are local people later on used as a shield and some of these police

:14:38.:14:42.

stations they are taken over by clearly paramilitary troops. Do we

:14:43.:14:45.

know and have evidence of that. There has been talk from Washington

:14:46.:14:51.

about 20 of those special ops Russian soldiers have been captured.

:14:52.:14:54.

Let's see them. There has been evidence of the arms today using the

:14:55.:15:01.

ammunition of the Russian military. AKM-74 has been produced since 1974,

:15:02.:15:06.

it has been in circulation in the former Soviet Union. The British

:15:07.:15:10.

Foreign Secretary, he's also not been there says that there is a

:15:11.:15:14.

clear evidence of Russian intervention. But he has got

:15:15.:15:20.

satellite surveillance, he has human intelligence. You know, these are

:15:21.:15:23.

people who don't usually make things up aren't they? Don't they? Go back

:15:24.:15:32.

to Iraq? Do we? Fair point! But there is another thing that the

:15:33.:15:36.

satellite images are available on Google maps. I don't think this is

:15:37.:15:40.

about satellite images and we are not saying that Russia is deploying

:15:41.:15:45.

those militants that we see on the satellite images I think they are

:15:46.:15:50.

infiltrating through the covert security operations, and throughout

:15:51.:15:54.

the week we have been hearing Ukrainian services arresting Russian

:15:55.:15:58.

intelligence officials on the territory of Ukraine being part of

:15:59.:16:04.

the covert operation. Now it certainly doesn't seem fair that a

:16:05.:16:08.

man judged by the courts to have done nothing wrong should end up

:16:09.:16:13.

massively out of pocket and know when mud is thrown it is usual some

:16:14.:16:19.

of it will stick. The former Deputy Speaker of the House of Commons up

:16:20.:16:24.

on charges of sexual assault says the trial cost him his life savings

:16:25.:16:30.

and dignity. The Crown Prosecution Service is trying to recover from

:16:31.:16:35.

another failed case. Nigel Evans believes those accused should be

:16:36.:16:40.

entitled to the anonymity of those who make the complaints. The MP who

:16:41.:16:44.

took the original allegations to the Commons authorities has told

:16:45.:16:46.

Newsnight that she doesn't regret doing so, but has faced massive

:16:47.:16:56.

hostility from colleagues. Cleared of all allegation, free to

:16:57.:17:01.

take the breakfast TV sofa. Nigel Evans makes no secret of how

:17:02.:17:06.

low his spirits fell, at one point he considered taking his lie. In the

:17:07.:17:12.

early days, at the darkest most loaneeist moment -- loneliest

:17:13.:17:15.

moment, you think there was only one thing worse and that is being

:17:16.:17:19.

accused of murder. It was only because of the friends who had faith

:17:20.:17:26.

and hope in me that kept me absolutely solid. People who you

:17:27.:17:29.

would think would run away from you, because of the allegations that were

:17:30.:17:34.

made actually ran towards me. Now he's won the fight to clear his

:17:35.:17:39.

name, he will battle, so others accused of sexual offences can have

:17:40.:17:45.

their identity protected. Number Ten said there are no plans to change

:17:46.:17:50.

the rules. But Evans's friends in the Commons are making plans for a

:17:51.:17:56.

party to celebrate his return. The MP who first heard the complainants

:17:57.:18:00.

allegations is unlikely to be invited. So I asked what was her

:18:01.:18:05.

motivation? The action I took was to pass the contact details for the

:18:06.:18:08.

police to these individual, I did not report this case to the police,

:18:09.:18:12.

in fact I did everything I could to try to see if there was an internal

:18:13.:18:17.

disciplinary procedure. Because that was the clear preference of those

:18:18.:18:20.

involved. The problem is within parliament, if people have a concern

:18:21.:18:24.

about a member of parliament they are working for, that person is

:18:25.:18:28.

their employer so they can take a complaint to them or they can take

:18:29.:18:33.

it to the whip's office. The whip's office is hope lessly conflicted in

:18:34.:18:39.

handling these kinds of allegations. Why was it up to you, even to take

:18:40.:18:43.

it to the Speak e these young men could have at any point gone to the

:18:44.:18:47.

police if they had seen fit? Of course they could have done, but the

:18:48.:18:51.

point is they didn't wish to go to the police at that stage, they

:18:52.:18:53.

wished to, this is what they have told me, they wished to have a

:18:54.:19:06.

disciplinary process. Didn't wish to go to the police at that stage, they

:19:07.:19:08.

wished to, this is Did you push them into that? No it

:19:09.:19:20.

would be very serious if I did. Why did you say you would step down? If

:19:21.:19:25.

I felt I had pressured them, or they felt I had pressured them, it is

:19:26.:19:29.

such a serious allegation I would be prepared to step down. When did you

:19:30.:19:33.

offer to step down? I phoned them yesterday, because I felt it was

:19:34.:19:36.

very important to, you know, because this allegation had been made about

:19:37.:19:39.

me and my professionalism, I wanted to know whether that is how they

:19:40.:19:45.

felt? Not, of course it is how they felt about it that matters. And they

:19:46.:19:49.

were both very clear with me that they hadn't felt that I had

:19:50.:19:53.

pressured them. But if they had said to me they felt pressured or they

:19:54.:19:56.

felt I should have stepped down I would have done so. Many of your

:19:57.:19:59.

colleagues and Nigel Evans himself believe that some how you were

:20:00.:20:04.

trying to push this. Nigel Evans has said today it was mentioned to you

:20:05.:20:08.

as a throw away remark and yet you pursued it. He didn't know why but

:20:09.:20:13.

he says you decided to have it in for him? That is ex-orderry, I would

:20:14.:20:17.

turn that around, why is it that people in parliament don't take

:20:18.:20:21.

forward concerns that are reported them. These issues are widely

:20:22.:20:24.

discussed in parliament. This was the first time anyone had ever said

:20:25.:20:28.

to me this has happened to me. Are you surprised that colleagues,

:20:29.:20:32.

frankly, some of them are furious with what you did? Of course I'm

:20:33.:20:38.

surprised. I would say the really serious questions that need to be

:20:39.:20:41.

answered in parliament is where are the people who have been hearing

:20:42.:20:44.

these kinds of allegations in the past and not taking them forward

:20:45.:20:54.

SFUF. We need to have the same standards as other professionals.

:20:55.:20:59.

What is the issue with culture in Westminster? There are issues of

:21:00.:21:04.

professionalal boundaries, you are in a position of power, and that is

:21:05.:21:08.

my point of view. People may think I'm were youedish, but there you

:21:09.:21:13.

are, I think there is a professional responsibility and some MPs overstep

:21:14.:21:17.

the mark. There are calls for the CPS to treat these cases differently

:21:18.:21:20.

and calls for anonymity for defendants? I stress that Nigel

:21:21.:21:25.

Evans has been found innocent of all charges, and this is entirely

:21:26.:21:28.

separate. The point is what we must now do is not have a kneejerk

:21:29.:21:33.

reaction to actually change the law. Nigel Evans and many of your

:21:34.:21:36.

colleagues look at this case now, look at what happened to him and the

:21:37.:21:40.

case fell apart, they believe now it is time for change, are they simply

:21:41.:21:44.

wrong? I think that we have to be very wary to do anything that stops

:21:45.:21:50.

women and men of course, because men are victims as well, from coming

:21:51.:21:54.

forward. I would not support absolutely would not support a

:21:55.:21:58.

removal of anonymity, nor for a change in the law that allows the

:21:59.:22:02.

CPS to bring lesser charges to build a case. Because in some cases, and

:22:03.:22:07.

I'm not referring at all to this case, but in some cases that can be

:22:08.:22:12.

very important. Do you regret at all doing what you did? I think it is

:22:13.:22:15.

very difficult. The thing I regret about it is the hostility that I

:22:16.:22:20.

have faced in actually doing it. It has been very uncomfortable bringing

:22:21.:22:25.

this forward. Certainly professionally for me it has been a

:22:26.:22:28.

very difficult experience. And no doubt will continue to be a very

:22:29.:22:32.

difficult experience in Westminster. Do I think that if somebody came to

:22:33.:22:40.

me again and said I have been raped would I feel I would say to them in

:22:41.:22:46.

future, nothing to do with me. I think that what we absolutely need

:22:47.:22:50.

within Westminster is a process where people can go to. I never

:22:51.:22:54.

sought to be judge and jury in this case, that is for others, somebody

:22:55.:22:58.

needs to be there who can listen to all of the evidence and make a

:22:59.:23:01.

judgment. And the fact is unfortunately within Westminster

:23:02.:23:04.

there is no process for that to happen.

:23:05.:23:07.

We invited Nigel Evans to speak with us this evening, but we were told he

:23:08.:23:13.

wasn't available. The former Conservative MP Anne Widdicombe gave

:23:14.:23:18.

a character reference at the trial. You thought he was kind, truthful,

:23:19.:23:25.

considerate, when you heard about the drinking and the inappropriate

:23:26.:23:30.

sexual conduct, or contact, what did you think? I think the fact that

:23:31.:23:34.

somebody makes the odd drunken pass does not make them a rapist. And I

:23:35.:23:39.

never believed the allegations that were made. But they have been

:23:40.:23:44.

through a proper process of trial. And have been shown not to be

:23:45.:23:49.

sustained. And I think there are now major questions to answered, not

:23:50.:23:53.

least on the part of the CPS. Because this is just the latest in a

:23:54.:23:58.

whole series of cases where high-profile people have faced not

:23:59.:24:04.

one charge but multiple charges and have then been acquitted on all of

:24:05.:24:09.

them. Just before we move on to that, was the sort of behaviour that

:24:10.:24:16.

you heard about, you say everybody gets drunk occasionally and does

:24:17.:24:20.

something inappropriate, but precisely where you draw the line is

:24:21.:24:24.

the key thing. Is it appropriate in the Deputy Speaker of the House of

:24:25.:24:29.

Commons? I don't know exactly what happened, I mean Nigel Evans denies

:24:30.:24:34.

what was suggested. I was certainly never invited tho these events and

:24:35.:24:40.

-- to these events and wouldn't have expected to have been. What we all

:24:41.:24:46.

now know is he was innocent of every single charge from the most serious

:24:47.:24:53.

one which was rape, down to sexual assault, where even the alleged

:24:54.:24:57.

victim said they didn't want to press charges. The police had

:24:58.:25:03.

insisted. I do think there are two big questions, in fact there are

:25:04.:25:05.

three big questions coming out of this. The first is whether the CPS

:25:06.:25:10.

is operating to a sensible standard of proof when it decides to bring

:25:11.:25:15.

these charges. The second is whether there should be a level playing

:25:16.:25:20.

field when it comes to anonymity. The third is whether there is now a

:25:21.:25:26.

habit on the part of the CPS of bunkedling up a whole load of very

:25:27.:25:29.

weak cases, none of which would stand up on their own in court and

:25:30.:25:33.

suggesting that some how because there is a lot, therefore there must

:25:34.:25:39.

be something in it because there is no smoke without fire. Let's take

:25:40.:25:43.

the two points about the CPS, is it in that terrible phrase "fit for

:25:44.:25:48.

purpose" as far as you can see? I'm not saying it is unfit for purpose,

:25:49.:25:52.

but it has certainly got its approach wrong. It was wrong in the

:25:53.:25:59.

case of Bill Roache and wrong out of 14 of the charges for Dave Lee

:26:00.:26:04.

Travis, and wrong with the nine charges against Nigel Evans. If it

:26:05.:26:09.

has any sense at all it will be saying we're not getting this right,

:26:10.:26:13.

we need to look at our approach. Most people reading some of the

:26:14.:26:16.

evidence, not just in Nigel's trial, but in some of the others' which I

:26:17.:26:22.

have mentioned say hang on how could anyone bring a case based on this

:26:23.:26:26.

evidence. Why do we have all the expense, and from the point of view

:26:27.:26:30.

of the defendant also the agony of a public trial, tying up state

:26:31.:26:35.

resources when actually most of the evidence is flimsy. Let's look at

:26:36.:26:39.

the case of the public aspect to all of this. There are suggestions now,

:26:40.:26:45.

not least from your friend, Nigel Evans, that in a case like this a

:26:46.:26:50.

defendant should be entitled to the anonymity often given to those who

:26:51.:26:54.

claim that they have been assaulted. What do you think about that? I

:26:55.:27:00.

think that either you have anonymity for both, or you have anonymity for

:27:01.:27:04.

neither, or you have the course which I would prefer, which is where

:27:05.:27:10.

you do allow accusers to be anonymous, but at the end of the

:27:11.:27:13.

trial, if the accused is acquitted, then it should be a matter for the

:27:14.:27:19.

judge to decide whether or not the anonymity should be preserved. Or

:27:20.:27:23.

whether they should be named at that point. If he thinks an allegation

:27:24.:27:30.

was wholly unsubstantiated or frivolous or malicious or whatever

:27:31.:27:33.

it might be, he might then decide that they could no longer have

:27:34.:27:37.

anonymity and the press could name them, or he might decide that the

:27:38.:27:41.

circumstances were such that the anonymity should continue. What I

:27:42.:27:46.

don't think is fashion and I have said it for a long time, I have

:27:47.:27:49.

written this in the past. What I don't think is fair is where you

:27:50.:27:54.

have got anonymity f one side but not for the other. In the specific

:27:55.:28:00.

circumstances of the House of Commons, the Houses of Parliament

:28:01.:28:08.

generally. Doesn't the place need a different set of rules and

:28:09.:28:12.

procedures that people can go through in order to have their

:28:13.:28:16.

grievances properly explored without having to take it up with their

:28:17.:28:21.

employer, effectively, the member of parliament who is also the

:28:22.:28:33.

discipline channel. A member of staff can go to a tribunal in the

:28:34.:28:39.

same way as anyone else. If there is a possible criminal element

:28:40.:28:43.

involved, really they reported it to the Speaker, and they took action.

:28:44.:28:48.

Nobody would suggest up internal disciplinary procedures over a rape

:28:49.:28:52.

charge. For goodness sake. So I don't actually think that many of

:28:53.:28:56.

the procedures need changing, but I think as a result of this case that

:28:57.:29:00.

there are things that will be looked at, and probably quite rightly so.

:29:01.:29:10.

Thank you. Now, it is one of the greatest nightmares, being convicted

:29:11.:29:13.

of a crime you didn't commit and then being sentenced to death. In

:29:14.:29:18.

the case of Glenn Ford almost everything about the trial Stanning.

:29:19.:29:26.

No eyewitnesses -- stank, no eyewitnesses or any evidence, just a

:29:27.:29:30.

couple of incompetent lawyers in front of an all-white jury. He was

:29:31.:29:40.

sent to his death in 1984 in Louisia 30 years later he has been cleared.

:29:41.:29:45.

The moment Glenn Ford finally walked out of prison. A free man after

:29:46.:29:50.

three decades locked up for a murder he didn't commit. 30 years, 30 years

:29:51.:29:56.

of my life, if not all of it. Because I can't go back and do

:29:57.:30:01.

anything I should have been doing when I was 35, 38, 40, stuff like

:30:02.:30:06.

that. Ford was a young man when he was convicted of shooting and

:30:07.:30:11.

robbing a local watch maker. An all-white jury found him guilty, he

:30:12.:30:14.

was sentenced to die in the electric chair. Locked up on death row in the

:30:15.:30:20.

notorious Angola Prison in Louisiana, a long legal challenge

:30:21.:30:24.

started. His supporters always said the evidence against him was weak.

:30:25.:30:27.

There was no eyewitness, or murder weapon. But it took until March this

:30:28.:30:34.

year for the Louisiana Supreme Court to overturn the conviction, an

:30:35.:30:39.

informant went to the police saying another of the original suspects

:30:40.:30:43.

pulled the trigger. I certainly feel bad for him and I'm sorry it

:30:44.:30:47.

happened. But also when you look at the case everybody had good

:30:48.:30:54.

intentions and it was a mistake. Ford is one of the longest-serving

:30:55.:31:00.

death row inmates to be set free. Since executions were reinstated in

:31:01.:31:05.

the mid-1970s another 143 prisoners have had their convictions

:31:06.:31:08.

overturned. But public support for the death penalty has always been

:31:09.:31:14.

high. Only once in 1966 have polls shown opponents in the majority. The

:31:15.:31:18.

number who say they are in favour has been drifting down since a peak

:31:19.:31:24.

in the 1990, but 60% of Americans still support it, just #3R5% are

:31:25.:31:29.

against. -- 35% are against. It is high, but if you consider they have

:31:30.:31:33.

had the death penalty a long time, so to conceive of not having it is a

:31:34.:31:38.

bit of a leap. I think it is getting closer and closer to 50% will force

:31:39.:31:42.

the Supreme Court to look at this issue. Gle Ford will get ?8,000 for

:31:43.:31:48.

each of the years he spent inside his cell. Asked for a pent as he was

:31:49.:31:54.

-- comment as he was driven away from the gates. He told the court

:31:55.:31:58.

his sons were babies when he was convicted, now they are grown men

:31:59.:32:02.

with children of their own. Joining us from New Orleans is Glenn

:32:03.:32:06.

Ford. Mr Ford what's the best thing about being free? I wouldn't know, I

:32:07.:32:15.

haven't felt free yet. It hasn't really sunk in yet? Everything is,

:32:16.:32:23.

no, everything is just some what of a hassle. It feels some what

:32:24.:32:27.

strange. What has been the most surprising thing about coming

:32:28.:32:37.

outside after 30 years? Technology. Everybody with these cellphone,

:32:38.:32:42.

computers, stuff, things of that nature. As I was saying, being

:32:43.:32:49.

arrested for a crime you didn't commit, being found guilty, being

:32:50.:32:55.

given the death penalty, the death sentence, it is one of the worst

:32:56.:33:00.

things anyone can imagine, do you stay angry the whole time or what?

:33:01.:33:13.

Yeah. Well, you get angry, you feel helpless, but I never felt hopeless,

:33:14.:33:22.

just helpless. Angry. And don't know which way to go, I couldn't do

:33:23.:33:26.

nothing but wait. Were you angry all the time? No. Trying to keep my mind

:33:27.:33:36.

busy on other things. What did you keep your mind busy with? Read, do

:33:37.:33:43.

art, draw. Reading, drawing, playing chess, playing sudoku, something

:33:44.:33:50.

could keep my mind occupied. Doing things for somebody else. Whatever

:33:51.:33:58.

to occupy my mind I did. There must have been low points I guess? It was

:33:59.:34:07.

quite a few low points. Could you see, was there a pattern to them?

:34:08.:34:14.

No, well they were causing me to withdraw into myself for months.

:34:15.:34:19.

Months? I lose contact with people that I had known. Months, I wouldn't

:34:20.:34:28.

write or call anyone What do you feel now about the whole thing? What

:34:29.:34:37.

do you feel now about this way of administering justice? It's not

:34:38.:34:48.

justice. It's not, I don't know what justice, how can you call justice

:34:49.:34:55.

what happened to me. In Europe, we don't have capital punishment here,

:34:56.:35:00.

has it made you feel differently about your country do you think? No,

:35:01.:35:09.

I feel the same about it, it is a good country with some twisted laws

:35:10.:35:15.

and views and understanding. And routines that need to change. But

:35:16.:35:18.

the country is good, I like the country. What are you looking

:35:19.:35:29.

forward to most now? To be reunited with my family. To see my son, my

:35:30.:35:38.

grandson. Family I have never seen before. Thank you very much indeed.

:35:39.:35:53.

Thank you for your time. Now it is still over three months to the

:35:54.:36:01.

precise 100th anniversary of the outbreak of the First World War, and

:36:02.:36:04.

there is no consensus on how to mark the event. There has been some

:36:05.:36:08.

bad-tempered debate about whether people are being invited to

:36:09.:36:11.

commemorate an event or series of events, or an idea of what the war

:36:12.:36:16.

was, which has been got up in the years since and used, this is the

:36:17.:36:22.

Education Secretary's belief, to run down patriotism, honour and courage.

:36:23.:36:33.

What passing bells for these who die as cattle? Only the monstrous anger

:36:34.:36:40.

of the guns. Only the stuttering rifles rapid rattle can patter out

:36:41.:36:48.

their hasty odisons. Even before the war had ended, its legacy was being

:36:49.:36:53.

contested in print, music and on campus. Among the casualties of war

:36:54.:36:58.

was an entire world view, and among the many things fractured was the

:36:59.:37:02.

human imagination. But the strongest criticism and the deepest revulsion,

:37:03.:37:09.

the sense that it had Raul been a pointless sacrifice of lions led by

:37:10.:37:13.

donkeys came in the decades afterwards. In the 1960s came the

:37:14.:37:22.

musical Oh What A Lovely War. It fitted the times, but it is this

:37:23.:37:27.

idea that Michael Gove believes distorts a proper understanding of

:37:28.:37:31.

war. This is not war, it is slaughter. God is with us, it is for

:37:32.:37:37.

king and empire. We are sacrificing lives at the rate of five to

:37:38.:37:44.

sometimes 50 thousand ,000 a day. The next generation's take was

:37:45.:37:48.

shared in Blackadder, which shared many of the same convictions. Don't

:37:49.:37:53.

forget your stick? What oh, wouldn't want to face a machine gun without

:37:54.:37:57.

this! The First World War changed almost everything in Britain, but it

:37:58.:38:01.

didn't turn out to be the war that ended all wars, that has made it

:38:02.:38:05.

easier to consider it an exercise in futility. Michael Morpergo's story,

:38:06.:38:24.

Warhorse, took a mute animal to show industrialised killing. These images

:38:25.:38:31.

can bring an appreciation of an utterly foreign experience. 100

:38:32.:38:36.

years on do they help or hinter our understanding of it. To understand

:38:37.:38:42.

that is the author of Warhorse, what do you make of the Michael Gove

:38:43.:38:46.

accusations that these fictional renditions of the war are some how

:38:47.:38:51.

undermining patriotism, honour and courage? They don't, what they do is

:38:52.:38:59.

to draw attention to one of the most dreadful conflicts that humanity has

:39:00.:39:03.

been involved in, we lost ten million men. It is something this

:39:04.:39:07.

country has tried to come to terms with now for 100 years. Oort can

:39:08.:39:14.

play its part in -- art can play its part in that. Whether black cadder

:39:15.:39:20.

or Warhorse, or Oh What A Lovely War, it tells the story in different

:39:21.:39:24.

ways. We can tell the historical story, or we can tell it

:39:25.:39:30.

fictionally, and when you for instance, Blackadder is an

:39:31.:39:33.

interesting case in point. What we have in that story were beloved

:39:34.:39:37.

characters, loved characters, they came into people's houses for years,

:39:38.:39:41.

and they took the extraordinary courage, Richard Curtis and Ben

:39:42.:39:47.

Elton, to wipe them out. What did that mean? It meant that we all in

:39:48.:39:51.

an extraordinary way, because nobody knew about it. There was this huge

:39:52.:39:55.

loss, immediately, and you thought well that's the end of something,

:39:56.:39:58.

and it was the end of something, it was the end of a whole way of

:39:59.:40:02.

thinking, I thought it was a very significant moment both in arts and

:40:03.:40:06.

television and very brave thing to do. Didn't it make patriotism look

:40:07.:40:15.

stupid? What is it said, patriotism isn't enough it has to be

:40:16.:40:19.

thoughtful. Art can do that you know. Benjamin Britain brought

:40:20.:40:27.

together will Fred Owens poems and brought them in a different way and

:40:28.:40:31.

sang them. We need those emotions and feelings about the war tested

:40:32.:40:36.

and examined and art can do that. It can shine new lights on it. It is a

:40:37.:40:44.

limited picture, isn't it all the First World War "what passing bells

:40:45.:40:51.

for those who die as cattle", that is the pervading wisdom about it? I

:40:52.:40:56.

came to an interest in that war through those poem, read more

:40:57.:41:02.

closely and I think it would pay Mr Gove to do that. If you read Edward

:41:03.:41:09.

Thomas, and you read John McKray, these were patriotic people, they

:41:10.:41:13.

were trying to toss up right from wrong and what their place was in

:41:14.:41:21.

all of this. You know John McKray's In Flanders Field, "take up our

:41:22.:41:27.

quarrel with the foe", this was not against patriotism, poetry had its

:41:28.:41:30.

part to play and touches the deeper parts of us. Why is it that the

:41:31.:41:36.

First World War has a unique capacity to engender such flights of

:41:37.:41:43.

creativity? I just think it is unimaginable for me, and I have

:41:44.:41:46.

thought about it a lot, and many of us have about being put in that

:41:47.:41:50.

situation and live through what those men lived and died in and then

:41:51.:41:56.

survived and were ill afterwards and mutilated afterwards. And then you

:41:57.:41:59.

think about the grieving that went on and I suspect in my generation, I

:42:00.:42:05.

grew up just after the Second World War, so I witnessed the grieving

:42:06.:42:10.

after the Second World War, which I think does enable you to empathise

:42:11.:42:15.

with what happened before. We did have the link back to the First

:42:16.:42:20.

World War, and we do know there was this extraordinary catastrophe which

:42:21.:42:24.

wiped out the flower of our youth. Which did change the country and

:42:25.:42:29.

Europe. And 100 years later, to me any way, if we are marking this

:42:30.:42:33.

moment, that it should be done in the arts, but with purpose, it

:42:34.:42:36.

should be done with reconciliation and peace in mind, not with any

:42:37.:42:42.

sense of that this was a victory. I know the Germans turned around and

:42:43.:42:47.

marched back towards Berlin and we had more men standing at the end

:42:48.:42:52.

than they did. But it is a very, very difficult thing to talk in

:42:53.:42:55.

terms of victory when 20 years later there was another war which killed

:42:56.:42:59.

another 20 million. They weren't to know that? No, but we know it now.

:43:00.:43:04.

We can look back, those people themselves did what they did, many

:43:05.:43:07.

of them out of a passion for their country. There is no question about

:43:08.:43:10.

that. They went to war that way, and when it was over there was relief

:43:11.:43:16.

and joy. We know now that dreadful, dreadful conflict didn't solve what

:43:17.:43:22.

we hoped it might solve. They would want to know that at that time, it

:43:23.:43:28.

is striking after Sasoon and will Fred Owen write their poems they go

:43:29.:43:33.

back and fight? The sad thing is they did go back and fight, and they

:43:34.:43:40.

did make their protest in 1917 Sasoon and Landsdown they wanted to

:43:41.:43:45.

see if peace could be arrived at without utterly humiliating the

:43:46.:43:49.

enemy. They realised the suffering had gone on too long, by that time

:43:50.:43:53.

everyone's blood was up and they wanted to surrender. Doesn't the

:43:54.:43:58.

fact of the allied victory some how get overlooked in a lot of these

:43:59.:44:04.

first world war narratives? There is no doubt there was a victory of

:44:05.:44:09.

sorts. But what I want to focus on in my head is, yes there was a

:44:10.:44:13.

victory, but at what cost? At the cost of the lives of these people?

:44:14.:44:18.

All across the board, whether they were Germans or Italians, the

:44:19.:44:23.

Germans lost two million men. And when people go and I have been often

:44:24.:44:28.

to France and Germany as you have, and you see the cemetaries, the

:44:29.:44:33.

German cemetaries are empty, they were sons and fathers, it seems we

:44:34.:44:38.

now, 100 years later respect the fact that they went and fought for

:44:39.:44:47.

their country. They were not always Kaisers, they were fathers and

:44:48.:44:51.

people like we are. Do you emerge a pacifist? The older I am the more I

:44:52.:44:56.

want to be a pacifist. I had growing up two uncles in the Second World

:44:57.:45:01.

War, my uncle Peter who went to fight in the RAF almost immediately

:45:02.:45:06.

war was declared, and another uncle who became a pacifist. I had this

:45:07.:45:10.

extraordinary thing in my family where it happened, when my uncle

:45:11.:45:16.

Peter was killed my other uncle joined up and that solved it really.

:45:17.:45:20.

That is almost all tonight, we leave you with 14-year-old Lottie whose

:45:21.:45:25.

film maker father has recorded the same short video of her every week

:45:26.:45:30.

since she was born. Apparently's already planning part two. Good

:45:31.:45:31.

night.

:45:32.:45:35.

In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines with Jeremy Paxman.

Are Russian troops posing as Ukrainians?

The backlash after Nigel Evans.

The hacking trial.

Saved from death row.

Michael Morpurgo on WWI.


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