15/04/2014 Newsnight


15/04/2014

Jeremy Paxman examines Ukraine, Labour's economics, whether Britain is the world's most sexist country, Syrian jihadis and social media, and Norman Tebbit as a children's author.


Similar Content

Browse content similar to 15/04/2014. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!

Transcript


LineFromTo

Ukrainian troops are face-to-face with pro-Russian insurgents tonight,

:00:00.:00:12.

the Kremlin says it may be the brink of Civil War. As protestors march on

:00:13.:00:19.

the airport, will the Ukrainian army roll over again or fight? This guy

:00:20.:00:25.

is saying to the Ukrainian soldiers the other side of the wall, get out

:00:26.:00:29.

of here, this is our airport, this is our air trip, this is Donetsk's

:00:30.:00:35.

air strip. We will ask a leading member of the Ukrainian parliament

:00:36.:00:38.

what they are going to do. Also tonight. And in, and fling! Oh!

:00:39.:00:49.

Matron, take them away! A UN investigator is appalled at how

:00:50.:00:54.

sexist Britain is. Absurd or has she got husband banged to rights. And

:00:55.:01:00.

the story of a telepathic Russian dog that depreppeds -- befriends a

:01:01.:01:09.

disabled boy, what drug addled hippy wrote that! You might be surprised

:01:10.:01:18.

at the answer. Government forces in Ukraine today

:01:19.:01:23.

began trying to take back the ground occupied by protestors in the best

:01:24.:01:26.

part of a dozen towns in the east of the country. There was gunfire but

:01:27.:01:29.

to no-one's great surprise the United States said the Government

:01:30.:01:33.

had no choice and Russian officials said they were worried about

:01:34.:01:39.

casualties. Pretty much the precise reverse of the attitudes the two had

:01:40.:01:43.

struck when the protesters were on the streets of Kiev. This is the

:01:44.:01:47.

most dramatic confrontation between east and west since the end of the

:01:48.:01:52.

Cold War. At Kramatorsk airbase this evening, the pro-Russian

:01:53.:01:55.

demonstrators came face-to-face with the troops they see as their enemy.

:01:56.:02:03.

These soldiers are loyal to the Government in Kiev, and only this

:02:04.:02:08.

wall separates them from the mob. This guy is saying to the Ukrainian

:02:09.:02:13.

soldiers, the other side of this wall, get out of here, this is our

:02:14.:02:19.

airport and our air strip, this is Donetsk's air strip. The soldiers

:02:20.:02:23.

had arrived by helicopter a short while earlier. Kiev has said it will

:02:24.:02:26.

dislodge the seperatists from Government buildings they occupy by

:02:27.:02:30.

force if necessary. They have already lost control of police

:02:31.:02:34.

stations, they don't want to lose a military base. But the crowd fears

:02:35.:02:40.

this might be the start of the anti-terrorist operation announced

:02:41.:02:42.

by the Ukrainian President this morning. TRANSLATION: We don't know

:02:43.:02:48.

who these people are or why they are shooting, the whole town has come

:02:49.:02:55.

out to defend itself. For the first time inside Ukraine proper the

:02:56.:02:58.

demonstrators have raised the Russian flag over a Ukrainian

:02:59.:03:02.

military base. Yesterday we had filmed a group of seperatist leaders

:03:03.:03:08.

urging their followers to take control of military installations.

:03:09.:03:13.

This situation now is beginning to feel very, very familiar indeed.

:03:14.:03:20.

Angry locals, surrounding Ukrainian military installation, until

:03:21.:03:23.

eventually they fall. The only thing that is missing here is those little

:03:24.:03:32.

green men with the big guns. But today in nearby Slovansk we did see

:03:33.:03:39.

those men on control. They are different from the pro-Russian

:03:40.:03:43.

demonstrator, they have a high level of military training, they are

:03:44.:03:46.

heavily armed and discipline. We don't know if they are Russian or

:03:47.:03:50.

Ukrainian, their loyalty is not to Kiev. They were not keen to be

:03:51.:03:59.

filmed, but after some fraught negotiation some did agree to speak

:04:00.:04:05.

to me in private. I have just had quite a long conversation with those

:04:06.:04:08.

men in green with the big guns, they didn't want to go on camera but they

:04:09.:04:11.

did talk to me, I asked them straight, I said are they Russian?

:04:12.:04:18.

They said they are all Russian, it became clear they meant culturally

:04:19.:04:22.

Russian, they are citizens of Ukraine, one got his passport out,

:04:23.:04:25.

clearly a Ukrainian passport. They talked about Iraq, Syria, the evils

:04:26.:04:30.

of the west, they accused me of being an MI six spy. But then they

:04:31.:04:36.

asked me am I an orthodox Christian, I said I grew up in an Anglican

:04:37.:04:43.

tradition, then they said I must be a Pederast, then, their concerns

:04:44.:04:47.

were partly political but partly cultural. They felt threatened by

:04:48.:04:52.

what they saw as the culture of the west. 50 miles to the north the

:04:53.:04:56.

Ukrainian army began moving troops and military hardware in an

:04:57.:04:59.

adepartment to reassert its authority. Moscow has warned the

:05:00.:05:03.

country is on the brink of a Civil War, sending in soldiers against the

:05:04.:05:07.

protesters could lead to a Russian invasion. If Kiev does nothing it

:05:08.:05:15.

risks losing control of the east. Nervous militia men run around a

:05:16.:05:22.

children's playground, there are rumours of incursions, for ordinary

:05:23.:05:27.

citizens these are worrying times. TRANSLATION: I don't know what to

:05:28.:05:33.

do, I don't know what's going on. The masked armed man are clearly not

:05:34.:05:40.

from round here. As night falls over the Kramatorsk military base, the

:05:41.:05:47.

stand-off continues. This woman is berating one of her fellow

:05:48.:05:50.

protesters for trying to climb over the wall into the base. But moments

:05:51.:05:58.

later gunfire rings out as two men make their way towards the Ukrainian

:05:59.:06:02.

soldiers. They are warning shots, no-one was hurt, but some of the

:06:03.:06:06.

bravado here looks like it might be fuelled by alcohol. This is a

:06:07.:06:10.

dangerous moment for Ukraine, mistakes could have terrible

:06:11.:06:16.

consequences. About an hour ago I spoke to the leader of Ukraine's

:06:17.:06:23.

governing Fatherland party in parliament. I asked him why Ukraine

:06:24.:06:28.

was sending in the troops. We decided to do this because it is a

:06:29.:06:32.

very similar situation that we had in Crimea. When again these green

:06:33.:06:40.

men, again terrorists with Kalashnikovs, again we had the

:06:41.:07:01.

surprising uprising of civilians, the only way to clear these cities

:07:02.:07:05.

of real gangs of Russians is anti-terrorist operations. This is

:07:06.:07:10.

the same sort of language as Mr Yanakovic used when he was talking

:07:11.:07:14.

about moving against the protesters in the middle of Kiev. What is the

:07:15.:07:17.

difference between what the Government is doing now and what he

:07:18.:07:23.

tried to do then? You and all other correspondents, all our citizens

:07:24.:07:30.

never saw arms in the hands of those who make this uprising at the events

:07:31.:07:37.

during this Independence Square. We really saw how people without any

:07:38.:07:41.

weapons were killed and they were killed not only one day, they were

:07:42.:07:48.

killed second day, third day, and just now we hear 106 people without

:07:49.:07:53.

weapons were killed on the square and first of all on the central

:07:54.:07:58.

square of Ukraine. Now at this period in the region of Donetsk city

:07:59.:08:06.

we saw not our citizens, we saw a special troops that were prepared in

:08:07.:08:12.

the Russian federation who occupied all main buildings and not only

:08:13.:08:17.

buildings of, for example of councils. How do you imagine that

:08:18.:08:22.

this situation in eastern Ukraine will end? The Russian Federation,

:08:23.:08:28.

through their special troops that have the best ment they want to

:08:29.:08:42.

divide the Ukraine, they want to claim this is their territory and it

:08:43.:08:48.

will become the territory of the Russian Federation. First of all we

:08:49.:08:53.

need all the areas, airports, buildings of police, special

:08:54.:08:57.

services offices without common people and after this we propose to

:08:58.:09:01.

people with the weapons to put this weapon down. If no it will be a

:09:02.:09:06.

special anti-terrorist operation against people with weapons. There

:09:07.:09:09.

is a real danger though isn't there of Civil War? No, it is not a Civil

:09:10.:09:16.

War. When we are struggling against Russian troops it is not a Civil

:09:17.:09:20.

War. It is a war for our independence, it is a war against

:09:21.:09:26.

aggression, Putin's aggression, and so the only way, if we do no have

:09:27.:09:31.

some result in negotiations, any terrorist as well as in Great

:09:32.:09:35.

Britain, the United States, in all other countries all over the world,

:09:36.:09:41.

they must be localised and after this anti-terrorist operation have

:09:42.:09:44.

to do the main task, to stop this invasion of Russian troops against

:09:45.:09:48.

Ukraine. But in the long-term you are going to have to have, won't

:09:49.:09:55.

you, a federal system in which the rights of minorities are properly

:09:56.:10:03.

protected? Only 12% of people supported so called federalisation,

:10:04.:10:07.

more than 80% of people supported the unity of one state, the state of

:10:08.:10:18.

Ukraine. Even in eastern regions our constituencies supported the union

:10:19.:10:22.

country, not the federalisation, so it is a choice of the Ukrainian

:10:23.:10:26.

people. Ev now we proposed the referendum. Please we want to

:10:27.:10:30.

provide a referendum on the 25th of May, with a question, you are for

:10:31.:10:36.

unity of the country or not? And when we announce this proposition,

:10:37.:10:45.

first of all the members of the Yanakovic party refused the

:10:46.:10:50.

proposition, they want local referendums in some small cities and

:10:51.:10:53.

regions, but it is impossible. Our proposition, if really they want to

:10:54.:10:58.

hear a voice of the people, please we are ready to provide all country

:10:59.:11:05.

referendum in which people will answer. But they are afraid of the

:11:06.:11:08.

result of such a referendum. It is not a question of federalisation in

:11:09.:11:13.

Ukraine. Thank you very much for sparing the time to trac to us,

:11:14.:11:17.

thank you. Inflation in this country is now

:11:18.:11:21.

running at its lowest rate for four years. One. 6%. Figures out tomorrow

:11:22.:11:30.

are said to show wages rising ahead of inflation. A year before the

:11:31.:11:34.

election this is good news for the Conservatives. Ed Balls the Shadow

:11:35.:11:41.

Chancellor was steadfastly maintaining that this didn't mean

:11:42.:11:44.

the cost of living crisis was easing. Labour has already had to

:11:45.:11:47.

change its attack on the Government once.

:11:48.:11:58.

Let's face it, for years millions of voters have felt skint. So to use

:11:59.:12:04.

the ghastly political venacular, Ed Miliband has taken this jazzy retail

:12:05.:12:08.

offer right around the country. We have got a cost of living crisis

:12:09.:12:13.

facing ordinary families. I wanted to talk about the cost of living

:12:14.:12:16.

crisis. We have a lost of living crisis in the country.

:12:17.:12:21.

The top priority for the budget today has to be the cost of living

:12:22.:12:25.

crisis. Is it still a crisis. Prices are rising at their slowest pace for

:12:26.:12:30.

four years, tomorrow expect number crunches to say wages have caught

:12:31.:12:33.

up. Rejoice if you are worried how far your cash goes, maybe not if you

:12:34.:12:39.

are a Labour strategist. For as long assuages were dragging behind price

:12:40.:12:43.

rises the retail offer, to use the jargon, made a certain political

:12:44.:12:50.

sense. Now the misery gap between wages and inflation has nearly

:12:51.:12:54.

closed, might Labour find they have made a mistake and put all their

:12:55.:12:58.

eggs in one basket. So if the statistics suggest the so

:12:59.:13:28.

called crisis is abating, has Labour almost started to shift, listen

:13:29.:13:32.

carefully. There is a long-term challenges to make sure if our

:13:33.:13:36.

economy grows that people share fairly in that rising prosperity.

:13:37.:13:40.

That's why Labour says not there is no cost of living crisis, that's the

:13:41.:13:44.

out-of-touch Conservative view, Labour says there is a challenge, we

:13:45.:13:49.

will rise to it. They can't return to Ed Balls's favourite hand

:13:50.:13:55.

gesture, the accusations about the slowdown in Government spending to

:13:56.:13:57.

kill off growth, because the economy, month after month is

:13:58.:14:00.

growing, but in real life there is still gain in talking about the

:14:01.:14:05.

pound in our pocket. Next year, come 2015, whilst incomes may be a bit

:14:06.:14:09.

higher than they are now, they will almost for sure be still

:14:10.:14:15.

considerably lower than they were in 2010 or in 2008 before the

:14:16.:14:19.

recession. One Shadow Cabinet member told me there is a conscious move to

:14:20.:14:22.

talk about the future economy. Another source said it is pretty

:14:23.:14:25.

desperate. Economic policy isn't more than bits and bobs that won't

:14:26.:14:33.

convince. But one senior Labour figure told me people are not just

:14:34.:14:37.

suddenly going to feel better off, the Tories' optimisim, they said, is

:14:38.:14:42.

disconnected with the public. The crucial question is what bargain

:14:43.:14:48.

does Labour try to strike? That is trick year, some Labour MPs want to

:14:49.:14:52.

take on the rail industry, perhaps even supermarkets after the energy

:14:53.:14:57.

prize freeze row, but this former ministers warns about pushing

:14:58.:15:01.

business away. I want to see a Labour Party that takes wealth

:15:02.:15:07.

creation as seriously as distribution of wealth. I'm all for

:15:08.:15:11.

justice and fairness in the work place, and in terms of public

:15:12.:15:15.

spending decisions in terms of health and education and everything

:15:16.:15:17.

else, but you have to create wealth too, and we have to be a party that

:15:18.:15:20.

cares every bit as much about the creation of wealth as how it is

:15:21.:15:24.

distributed. Is Labour at the moment saying enough to give business any

:15:25.:15:28.

confidence? It is really important to communicate, not only to business

:15:29.:15:32.

people, but to everybody who works for them, that you take wealth

:15:33.:15:36.

creation every bit as seriously as you take fair distribution of

:15:37.:15:40.

wealth. I think Labour has always been strongest when it does that.

:15:41.:15:44.

There is not much sign that Labour's able yet to agree how to make the

:15:45.:15:49.

sums add up. But it can't be oblivious to an ugly truth. When

:15:50.:15:53.

things get better for your political on Ponte al opponents it is harder

:15:54.:16:04.

to -- opponents, it is harder to cash in. Growth is up, and inflation

:16:05.:16:08.

is down, wages are going to be above inflation, do you want to apologise

:16:09.:16:13.

to the Conservatives? Look the growth that we have seen after three

:16:14.:16:17.

very damaging years of a flat-lining economy is very welcome and today's

:16:18.:16:21.

fall in inflation and what we expect might happen with the wages figures

:16:22.:16:25.

tomorrow, that is all moving in the right direction. It doesn't however.

:16:26.:16:31.

Well done them eh! ? It don't make up for all the lost ground we have

:16:32.:16:34.

seen since the Government came to power. We know that on average wages

:16:35.:16:40.

are down ?1600 a year since the election, and by next year

:16:41.:16:44.

households will be ?1,000 a year worse off. That is on IFS figures.

:16:45.:16:49.

That is not small sums of money for ordinary families to be struggling

:16:50.:16:52.

with. Absolutely not, but if people feel life is getting better, that is

:16:53.:16:57.

the key things isn't it? I think this is where the cost of living

:16:58.:17:02.

crisis continues to be suffered in a very keep way. Families are under

:17:03.:17:06.

real pressure, if I think about my own constituency where every time a

:17:07.:17:10.

bill comes on the doorstep people have their head in their hands

:17:11.:17:14.

thinking how they are going to pay for it. Whilst obviously the changes

:17:15.:17:16.

that we have seen in terms of inflation and what we think will

:17:17.:17:19.

happen with the figures tomorrow, as I say, they are welcome steps in the

:17:20.:17:22.

right direction, but people don't live their lives on a graph. Out

:17:23.:17:27.

there in the country millions of people are struggling because they

:17:28.:17:30.

are worse off and because by next year they will still be worse off

:17:31.:17:35.

than in 2010. Your policy started off being the Government was cutting

:17:36.:17:38.

too far and too fast, when there was a bit of growth you said you would

:17:39.:17:42.

match their spending. Then you said there was a cost of living crisis.

:17:43.:17:47.

What exactly is your policy now? Well the truth is that this

:17:48.:17:50.

Government did choke off, there was a recovery under way in 2010, and

:17:51.:17:54.

the choices this Government made on its economic plan choked off that

:17:55.:17:57.

recovery and led to three very damaging years of flat-lining. I

:17:58.:18:00.

don't think we can just write that off and say because we have growth

:18:01.:18:04.

very late in the day, with George Osborne way off on his own figures

:18:05.:18:08.

that some how that makes up for the calls that he made at the beginning

:18:09.:18:11.

of this parliament which I think were wrong. You have to have a

:18:12.:18:14.

policy going forward? We have set out a range of measures that deal

:18:15.:18:19.

with this very real and deep-seated cost of living crisis, whether that

:18:20.:18:23.

is on energy prices, which we said we would freeze, or childcare where

:18:24.:18:29.

we said we would increase the hours for parents of three and

:18:30.:18:32.

four-year-olds to 25 hours a week, these are practical measures. I tell

:18:33.:18:37.

you another name for practical measures, what one of your

:18:38.:18:44.

parliamentary candidates calls "bits and bobs" that don't add up to much

:18:45.:18:48.

at all? I don't accept that. We are also talking about the long-term

:18:49.:18:51.

changes we are seeing in the economy, whether that is setting up

:18:52.:18:55.

a proper British investment bank to support British businesses to grow,

:18:56.:18:58.

whether that's what we were talking about this week when it comes to

:18:59.:19:01.

regional economic development, a huge devolution of power,

:19:02.:19:06.

responsibility, money, to city and county regions, to really power

:19:07.:19:09.

regional growth. That is a whole range of measures. If this is so

:19:10.:19:14.

brilliant, why do people trust the Conservatives to run the economy

:19:15.:19:18.

much more than they trust you to run the economy? We are trying to do

:19:19.:19:21.

something we managed before. Manage competently? No, to be a one-term

:19:22.:19:26.

opposition, we know we came down to one of our worst defeats in our

:19:27.:19:29.

history in the 2010 general election, we still have to make the

:19:30.:19:32.

case to every section of British society and every member of the

:19:33.:19:35.

public about our offer. That is a task for us which we are not

:19:36.:19:39.

complacent about, we know the job of work we have to do. But the policies

:19:40.:19:43.

we have, the range of policy offers we have, I think, put us in a good

:19:44.:19:47.

place going ahead to make that case to the British electorate. Do you

:19:48.:19:53.

believe that the next election will be determined by whoever is judged

:19:54.:19:56.

to be the most competent at managing the economy? It will be a range of

:19:57.:19:59.

measures, that is in the gift of the British electorate to give. The

:20:00.:20:02.

argument I will be making and my colleagues will be making is that

:20:03.:20:06.

ordinary people. You can't think of a bigger issue can you? The economy

:20:07.:20:09.

will be a central issue at the next general election. The thing is

:20:10.:20:13.

people don't trust you? We know ordinary people are going to be, as

:20:14.:20:18.

the OBR tells us, worse off because wages will be five. 6% down on 2015

:20:19.:20:24.

than 2010. Why aren't people saying you will be better off running the

:20:25.:20:27.

economy? We have to continue to make the case to the electorate. There is

:20:28.:20:30.

a year to go and you failed to get through to them? Actually we are

:20:31.:20:34.

still ahead in the polls, the bounce the Chancellor saw after the budget.

:20:35.:20:37.

Not in the economy you are not? The bounce the Chancellor saw after the

:20:38.:20:40.

budget has dissipated. Looking at the polls today I would say if you

:20:41.:20:43.

are a Conservative you have a bit more to be worried. We are not

:20:44.:20:46.

complacent about the job of work that we have to do, we know what

:20:47.:20:50.

happened in 2010, we know what it is going to take for us to come back

:20:51.:20:54.

and form a Labour Government in 2015. We are up to that task, we

:20:55.:20:58.

have a range of policies, we have more to come which will deal with

:20:59.:21:01.

not just the short-term economic measure that is we need but actually

:21:02.:21:06.

looking ahead to the long-term, how we are going to get to a high-wage,

:21:07.:21:11.

high-skilled economy with sustained growth shared all over the country.

:21:12.:21:16.

What must it be like to live in the most sexist country on earth? Take a

:21:17.:21:22.

look around, according to the United Nations Special Special Raporteur on

:21:23.:21:25.

violence against women, who spent a whole 16 days in the country, found

:21:26.:21:31.

that sexism in Britain was more in your face than other places. She

:21:32.:21:35.

made no comparisons with her own country, South Africa, or Saudi

:21:36.:21:39.

Arabia, she was clearly rather appalled. This is a flavour of what

:21:40.:21:43.

she said. I think I saw that in yesterday's paper about the

:21:44.:21:46.

harassment on the tubes, that is sexist culture when you think you

:21:47.:21:51.

sit on public transport that it is OK to harass someone,

:21:52.:21:55.

inappropriately touch them, it is sexist culture. If I was walking in

:21:56.:21:59.

the street and they were whistles, which won't happen at this stage of

:22:00.:22:03.

my life, I know, but that is sexist culture. What is clear from these s

:22:04.:22:10.

of portrayals of women and girls is there is a boys' club sexist

:22:11.:22:19.

culture, that exists and it does lead to perceptions about women and

:22:20.:22:26.

girls in this country. My guests are with me. A writer and commentator

:22:27.:22:34.

who was born in Sudan, and Louis Chum, former editor of the

:22:35.:22:39.

Guardian's women's pages and Laura Bates is the founder of the Everyday

:22:40.:22:47.

Sexism Project, which collects women's experienced of sexism. What

:22:48.:22:51.

do you make of the comments? It doesn't really reflect my experience

:22:52.:22:57.

living in the UK. What do you mean? I think that women, there are

:22:58.:23:04.

problems for women, I quite agree, particularly young women at the

:23:05.:23:08.

moment, but I think by overstating it, by saying it is one of the worst

:23:09.:23:14.

most sexist cultures in the world, it just makes everybody believe

:23:15.:23:20.

there isn't any, you know. It just seems ridiculous. Your take

:23:21.:23:27.

presumably is entirely the opposite? Not completely the opposite. I would

:23:28.:23:31.

absolutely argue there is still a huge amount that women in this

:23:32.:23:35.

country are facing both on the more sexism end of the scale and when you

:23:36.:23:40.

look at sexual violence and that is often underestimated with a

:23:41.:23:43.

propensity to point the finger elsewhere. But I don't think it is

:23:44.:23:46.

particularly helpful to think about this in terms of one country being

:23:47.:23:51.

worse than another, women are facing horrendous things all over the

:23:52.:23:54.

world, the important thing is that we take it seriously everywhere. How

:23:55.:23:59.

does it seem to you? It seems it is obviously a bit ridiculous to hear

:24:00.:24:04.

that the UK is considered more sexist than places like Saudi

:24:05.:24:09.

Arabia, Somalia and Afghanistan. I think she was let down by her

:24:10.:24:12.

expression. It is important to understand that there are different

:24:13.:24:15.

grievances everywhere across the world. It is not a competition, and

:24:16.:24:18.

it is certainly not one anybody wants to win. But it is important to

:24:19.:24:23.

watch our language when we talk about these things, because if you

:24:24.:24:27.

are trying to highlight things that you think are sexist but not FGM or

:24:28.:24:33.

honour killings etc, you need to say it in a way that doesn't have people

:24:34.:24:40.

tune out of the conversation at the beginning. Look behind you at the

:24:41.:24:45.

screen that some person on the production screen has made you sit

:24:46.:24:49.

in front of? So kindly. I would have been up in arms about that if I was

:24:50.:24:53.

in your shoe, there we are. These are images with which we are all

:24:54.:24:57.

familiar. And they do represent women in a particular way don't

:24:58.:25:02.

they. Don't you believe that feeds into anything more sinister? I do. I

:25:03.:25:09.

think the kind of sexualised images of particularly of younger women is

:25:10.:25:15.

a real problem. I speak also as the mother of two girls. So I see it as

:25:16.:25:24.

a real problem. But I think when you overstate it, it doesn't help

:25:25.:25:27.

anybody. I think the sort of things that Laura Bates has been doing, I

:25:28.:25:31.

applaud them I think they are great. But I think we should also remember

:25:32.:25:36.

that we have come such a long way in the time, even I have been around.

:25:37.:25:40.

Do you think this is a generational thing? No, I don't think so, I think

:25:41.:25:47.

it is something that women experience of all age, women of all

:25:48.:25:51.

backgrounds and in all places as well. Do you think you face the same

:25:52.:25:55.

degree of sexual harassment as Louis might have done? I think it is

:25:56.:26:00.

really difficult to say, I think it is not necessarily about comparing,

:26:01.:26:04.

it is really dangerous to kind of go down that road of what things were

:26:05.:26:08.

like at one point. The point is that we are still in a country where

:26:09.:26:12.

85,000 women are raped annually, where over two women are killed

:26:13.:26:15.

every week by a current or former partner, where one in four women is

:26:16.:26:19.

the victim of domestic violence. To throw the baby out with the bath

:26:20.:26:23.

water and say this has been an exaggeration and everything is fine

:26:24.:26:28.

isn't accurate at all. We have made progress but we have a long way to

:26:29.:26:32.

go, is that a fair enough argument? It is a fair enough argument, but

:26:33.:26:40.

there is also a danger of viewing feminism or criticising sexist

:26:41.:26:43.

culture in the UK and in the west in general only through the prism of

:26:44.:26:48.

images and of popular culture. There has been a move in recent years to

:26:49.:26:53.

talk about feminism and women in terms of page three in terms of

:26:54.:26:57.

pornography, in terms of body image and the pictures we have behind us,

:26:58.:27:03.

that, I think, sort of hides far more serious issues that people need

:27:04.:27:09.

to speak about, equal pay, maternity leave, the lack of women in

:27:10.:27:13.

boardrooms and I think that there is a danger that we spend too much time

:27:14.:27:18.

talking about body image and the popular culture of sexism rather

:27:19.:27:23.

than actual practical challenge that is aren't FGM that aren't honour

:27:24.:27:28.

killings and all these things that obviously aren't happening in the UK

:27:29.:27:32.

but are practical drawbacks to women's lives every day. It's not

:27:33.:27:37.

fashionable to say there is a continuum, we should be obviously

:27:38.:27:40.

bothered by all things at the same time, but I'm far less bothered by

:27:41.:27:46.

the imagery of women in the popular culture by the lack of equal pay. It

:27:47.:27:52.

is funny you mention a continuum, the spectrum means all things are

:27:53.:27:55.

connected. I agree with the importance of addressing all those

:27:56.:27:59.

issue, I would argue that the sexualisation of women in the media,

:28:00.:28:03.

issues like page three feed into an impact on exactly those areas. On

:28:04.:28:08.

discrimination against women in the work place, on women in business,

:28:09.:28:12.

because if we're presenting women in the media sphere as sexualised

:28:13.:28:17.

dehumanised objects I think that has a knock-on impact on the way they

:28:18.:28:21.

are portrayed and the way they are behaved towards elsewhere. I would

:28:22.:28:26.

say that things, what goes around comes around in a way. You know I

:28:27.:28:35.

became the Guardian women's page editor at a time when Madonna was

:28:36.:28:39.

striding the world, and people talked about it as a post-feminist

:28:40.:28:45.

time, and it was very difficult you know, I can remember on the Guardian

:28:46.:28:51.

people groaning when I mentioned FGM, one feature over about four

:28:52.:28:57.

because everybody wanted it to be lipstick lesbians and how great

:28:58.:29:03.

their sex lives were. And then that grew and grew and grew to the point

:29:04.:29:08.

where, fortunately people then said no this is too much, we don't like

:29:09.:29:14.

this, and this is not about women showing their power, because that

:29:15.:29:20.

was only about ten years that was where everything was heading. If we

:29:21.:29:23.

wish to shake off, however merited or not, this opinion that has been

:29:24.:29:30.

delivered by the UN Special Raporteur, what are the practical

:29:31.:29:34.

steps that need to be taken by us as a society as a whole? I think one of

:29:35.:29:38.

the most important things which was one of the issues she raised herself

:29:39.:29:42.

is the importance of addressing these issues in the classroom. We

:29:43.:29:45.

know from a recent survey also quoted in this report that one in

:29:46.:29:51.

three girls aged 16-18 experienced unwanted sexual touching in school,

:29:52.:29:55.

and yet we won't have compulsory sex and relationships education that is

:29:56.:29:58.

dealing with issues like consent, like healthy relationships and

:29:59.:30:02.

violence. And I think it is just absolutely vital that we look at

:30:03.:30:06.

implementing that recommendation. Have you got further suggestions you

:30:07.:30:10.

two? As a foreigner and somebody who has come to the UK from a culture

:30:11.:30:14.

where women aren't visible I'm still shocked at how invisible women are

:30:15.:30:18.

in the public sphere? The UK. And I think something that should be

:30:19.:30:21.

encouraged is to have more women in the media, in Government, in the

:30:22.:30:25.

cabinet, visible, in influential positions, and not only in a pen of

:30:26.:30:30.

women's issues or women's health issues or as we are sitting here

:30:31.:30:33.

today talking about sexism, that is an important thing. Louis? I think

:30:34.:30:40.

one of the things that women have children and they very often want to

:30:41.:30:44.

spend time with them. You will also run into problems where women, they

:30:45.:30:49.

may be aiming for those kinds of roles but then they may draw back

:30:50.:30:57.

because they will always have a problem, a tension there. Even if

:30:58.:31:01.

the best childcare is offered there are some women that won't want to do

:31:02.:31:04.

that, they will want to spend that time with their children. But

:31:05.:31:07.

fathers have children too, there is so much we can do to make that

:31:08.:31:11.

easier for women, flexible working hours, shared parental leave. Those

:31:12.:31:16.

are all good advantages that have been made in this country. Right OK

:31:17.:31:22.

thank you very much. From what has emerged from the world of espionage,

:31:23.:31:27.

and counter espionage, it seems received wisdom that the greatest

:31:28.:31:30.

terrorist threat in this country comes from radicalised young men who

:31:31.:31:34.

have travelled to Syria to fight in the Civil War and then returned to

:31:35.:31:38.

Britain. How do these networks form, how does a young man get drawn into

:31:39.:31:43.

an experience so utterly alien to his life here. A group of

:31:44.:31:47.

researchers from King's College London have unearthed the vital role

:31:48.:31:57.

played by social media. Syria is being called the world's

:31:58.:32:04.

first social media Jihad. A conflict with combatants posting on-line in

:32:05.:32:11.

real time. -- real-time. Social networks have been embraced

:32:12.:32:14.

enthusiastically by foreign fighters. This is the most social

:32:15.:32:20.

mediated conflict in history. They want to use it to inspire people to

:32:21.:32:25.

come out and join their cause. They use the social media to promote an

:32:26.:32:30.

excitement, and excite youngsters over here to join them and commit

:32:31.:32:38.

violence. New research scene by Newsnight charts the rise of this

:32:39.:32:43.

social media Jihad. Academics from King's College London have built a

:32:44.:32:47.

database of tens of thousands of social media interactions, to map

:32:48.:32:51.

the conflict as never before. Their analysis provides a fascinating

:32:52.:32:55.

insight into the motivations of British and European radicals who

:32:56.:33:00.

flock to Syria to fight President Assad. Young Brits are travelling to

:33:01.:33:11.

fight. Big machines! Big boys, big machines! We have seen an horrific

:33:12.:33:19.

video with a fighter holding up a severed head taken from a bag of

:33:20.:33:24.

heads, that reveals the brutality of the conflict. Many are joining an

:33:25.:33:29.

Al-Qaeda group called Islamic State of Iraq or ISIS, fighting to Straub

:33:30.:33:41.

a regional Islamic calm ic Kalafet. The overwhelming majority in the

:33:42.:33:45.

database belong to ISIS, they have a low threshold for who they take for

:33:46.:33:50.

fighters, they brand their material. For young people that visual imagery

:33:51.:33:54.

is very attractive and seductive, that is the team they want to be

:33:55.:34:00.

part of. Remember this man? From Portsmouth. We obtained an exclusive

:34:01.:34:05.

interview with him near the Syrian front line in November via Skype. I

:34:06.:34:11.

am ISIS, this is the group I'm joining. Two weeks after our

:34:12.:34:16.

interview he was killed fighting with ISIS. What advantage is there

:34:17.:34:22.

in mapping it like this? The researchers from kings have

:34:23.:34:26.

mapped foreign fighters' social media connection, the lines, who

:34:27.:34:29.

they follow and who follows them. You can pull up details of

:34:30.:34:32.

individual fighters. What is going on here, can you actually go into

:34:33.:34:41.

say Iftaka Germain. Yes, all the lines you see are the individuals he

:34:42.:34:46.

follows on Twitter. And some of those lines are other foreign

:34:47.:34:50.

fighters who follow him on Twitter as well. He was a prolific tweeter,

:34:51.:34:57.

he is one of 190 fighters to feature in the new research. On Twitter we

:34:58.:35:03.

have elected more than 80,000 individual unique users who follow a

:35:04.:35:08.

foreign fighter or are followed by a foreign fighter. On Facebook we

:35:09.:35:13.

collected more than 4,000 pages liked by the foreign fighter

:35:14.:35:16.

community. Once we put the data together we were able to build a

:35:17.:35:19.

unique picture with other information as well about who is the

:35:20.:35:22.

most popular, who is the most important within these networks.

:35:23.:35:26.

What really shocked us is when we pulled up the data in tab later --

:35:27.:35:36.

tabular form, we noticed number one and three were two Sheikhs. So Ahmed

:35:37.:35:50.

Jabrul, a an American preacher was the most popular. He doesn't speak

:35:51.:35:53.

directly of Jihad, but speaks against democracy and the supremacy

:35:54.:35:59.

of Islam. Our religion was sent to be supreme not equal, we must be

:36:00.:36:03.

different to other faiths. He preaches the worldwide community of

:36:04.:36:11.

Muslims must spurn the unbelievers, the kaffar. Masses of our people

:36:12.:36:19.

will join in with the unbelievers in a celebration? Jibril sent a direct

:36:20.:36:27.

message to those who have died on Twitter saying it made them weep. We

:36:28.:36:35.

consulted an Islamic scholar about Jibril, he rejects democracy. These

:36:36.:36:46.

are sloganisation to create Anwar Animosity, saying we are superior

:36:47.:36:52.

and we are better. Democracy has a different meaning to different

:36:53.:36:57.

societies. Essentially it is about three people coming together in an

:36:58.:37:02.

association to air their views in a freedom. And the Koran supports

:37:03.:37:10.

that? Court ran -- the Koran supports that. The next most popular

:37:11.:37:16.

preacher is an Australian called Moussa Seretonian, from an Italian

:37:17.:37:22.

Catholic family he converted to Islam ten years ago. We will be the

:37:23.:37:26.

soldiers of Islam, holding high the banners. He says he supported ISIS

:37:27.:37:31.

because it is trying to establish an Islamic state. The capital of the

:37:32.:37:44.

Islamic city will be Al Quds. He's more explicit about his support for

:37:45.:37:49.

Jihad. He's extremely anti-American, and refers to the Department of

:37:50.:37:54.

State as the "Department of Rape". Last year a post on his Facebook

:37:55.:37:58.

page highlighted terrorist attacks on America, and talked of abhorrent

:37:59.:38:05.

and Satanic evil in both Republican and Democratic parties.

:38:06.:38:06.

Controversially the post also states they should be fought, explaining

:38:07.:38:10.

that we should stop them by fighting them, by assassinating their

:38:11.:38:17.

oppressive leaders. This is This is dangerous talk isn't it? It is quite

:38:18.:38:24.

dangerous, isn't T it is a selective passage quoting from a selective

:38:25.:38:29.

type of ideology. What they are doing is increasing the facade that

:38:30.:38:34.

is going there already. The chaos? The chaos on the ground, they are

:38:35.:38:38.

increasing it. They are increasing it mercilessly. They are increasing

:38:39.:38:44.

it and they are doing a disservice to Islam itself. Because this is not

:38:45.:38:49.

Islam. No serious cleric of knowledge will recognise it. He

:38:50.:38:57.

declined to give us an interview, but answered some questions on

:38:58.:39:00.

Facebook. He admitted supporting ISIS, but he also says he has been

:39:01.:39:04.

critical of the group. Some will argue his words are free speech, but

:39:05.:39:08.

when it comes to Jihad in Syria, crickets will say his sermons

:39:09.:39:12.

encourage young Muslims to go to fight.

:39:13.:39:20.

Now, pilot, trade union rep, member of parliament, cabinet minister,

:39:21.:39:23.

member of the House of Lords, cook book writer, what else could life

:39:24.:39:28.

offer a man like Norman Tebbit? His latest incarnation is as a

:39:29.:39:34.

children's writer. For man known in ward as Chingford Skinhead, it is

:39:35.:39:39.

gentle stuff, featuring a talking Labrador, the central character is a

:39:40.:39:44.

14-year-old who is left paralysed after a car crash that killed his

:39:45.:39:50.

father. Lord Tebbit's wife has been in a wheelchair paralysed since the

:39:51.:39:54.

Conservative Party bomb 30 years ago. He has learned a lot about

:39:55.:39:59.

disability in that time. What is the attraction of writing for children?

:40:00.:40:02.

I wanted to write something else, something different, I thought I had

:40:03.:40:05.

a few things to say and a few debts to pay as well. I wanted to pay some

:40:06.:40:13.

tributes to some of the people at Stoke Mandeville, the guys at Canine

:40:14.:40:17.

Partners, that train dogs to be help dogs, and they are quite remarkable

:40:18.:40:21.

animals when they are trained. And things like that. And to say

:40:22.:40:28.

something about the awfulness for a youngster particularly to suddenly

:40:29.:40:32.

find his world has changed right about him. Samuel, your hero is in a

:40:33.:40:42.

wheelchair, he's 14, isn't he? You have had 30 years effectively of

:40:43.:40:46.

looking after someone in a wheelchair, what have you learned

:40:47.:40:51.

about disability? That everything takes longer and costs more. They

:40:52.:40:57.

are the two principal things about disability and how much it cramps

:40:58.:41:03.

life. You get excluded from things. It just becomes more difficult to

:41:04.:41:08.

get places and to do things. There are not many hotels around where we

:41:09.:41:13.

have got hoists in bathrooms and things like that. So there are lots

:41:14.:41:16.

of places you can't go. I think that's what I have learned about it.

:41:17.:41:21.

On the other hand the country is surely much better if you are in a

:41:22.:41:25.

wheelchair or otherwise disabled now than it was say 30, 40, 50 years

:41:26.:41:32.

ago? Yes indeed. And a tribute to that goes to particularly the people

:41:33.:41:37.

at hospitals like Stoke Mandeville. The average life span of someone who

:41:38.:41:42.

is spinally injured is not much different to somebody who is

:41:43.:41:48.

perfectly fit. 50 years ago it was a very short span of life you could

:41:49.:41:52.

expect after a serious spinal injury. And caring for someone who

:41:53.:41:58.

is disabled is a special sort of task isn't it? It is and there are

:41:59.:42:04.

lots of easier jobs, so it isn't always easy to find people to do it

:42:05.:42:11.

professionally. My wife has to have somebody with her within hearing

:42:12.:42:18.

distance all the time, day and night. She often needs help and

:42:19.:42:24.

somebody has to be there. It is not easy, it is not an easy job to do.

:42:25.:42:32.

Are there any consolations to it? If there are I have not really found

:42:33.:42:36.

them yet. A friend of mine in a wheelchair once said it was very

:42:37.:42:41.

irritating whenever you went to a social gathering, always looking at

:42:42.:42:45.

people's stomachs? I could very much think that, fortunately my wife has

:42:46.:42:49.

a big power wheelchair and she can lift it up so she can still be

:42:50.:42:55.

eye-to-eye with her if you are at a cocktail party or something like

:42:56.:42:57.

that. Things are getting better slowly. Do you think we have become

:42:58.:43:01.

a more compassionate society, do you think politics are more

:43:02.:43:05.

compassionate now than they were? It is not so much more compassionate.

:43:06.:43:09.

We are better equipped in many ways to know what to do. How to handle

:43:10.:43:15.

things. There are more ramps, there are rather less obstructions in

:43:16.:43:21.

shops and things like that. Partly self-interest, retailers realise

:43:22.:43:26.

that disabled people have got wallets and if you can't get, if

:43:27.:43:30.

they can't get into your job they won't buy anything from you. You are

:43:31.:43:33.

a terrible cynic, I thought we had become a more compassionate society?

:43:34.:43:36.

Perhaps we have a bit. More thoughtful? We have a bit too I

:43:37.:43:42.

think. We don't hide disabled people away in the way that we used to. I

:43:43.:43:47.

think that's the important thing. That's part of the message of this

:43:48.:43:52.

book and this extraordinary alliance between the boy and the dog and one

:43:53.:43:59.

or two other characters, all of whom have a counterpart in real life. The

:44:00.:44:04.

places are all real, the things that happen are perhaps a little bit

:44:05.:44:10.

stretched, there is a little old lady in the book, as you may know, a

:44:11.:44:18.

dear, peaceful white-haired little old lady who played a key role in

:44:19.:44:25.

this, she is drawn in the memory of my former colleague lady Daphane

:44:26.:44:32.

Park who was just a great lady. The MI6 lady? Who ran is in South

:44:33.:44:39.

Africa, perhaps there is a streak of feminism in it, I never saw that, my

:44:40.:44:45.

goodness me. People will say you have gone nuts writing about

:44:46.:44:49.

telepathic dog? You have got a dog, you know your dog often knows what

:44:50.:44:53.

you are thinking. What's more he knows what mood you are in before

:44:54.:44:56.

you have got to the front door, when you come home. Now listen as you are

:44:57.:45:03.

here I must ask you something about contempory politics or they will say

:45:04.:45:07.

I have been too easy on you. What do you think of this new softer

:45:08.:45:15.

Conservative Party? Well, I think that the Conservative Party's place

:45:16.:45:19.

in the world is to do the hard, tough things. Because the Labour

:45:20.:45:27.

Party certainly won't. As you explored this evening. Forget the

:45:28.:45:30.

point scoring, get to the point about the Conservatives? I don't

:45:31.:45:34.

want to point score against my own side. I think that's happened. I

:45:35.:45:38.

think it was a terrible mistake in the election campaign of 2010 to try

:45:39.:45:45.

and move on to the centre ground. Because there is a centre between

:45:46.:45:49.

you and me, if I move to there the middle has moved towards you as

:45:50.:45:54.

well. And in fact I think Mr Cameron in his campaign persuaded lots of

:45:55.:45:59.

potential liberal voters, yes, even Cameron thinks that the liberals are

:46:00.:46:07.

right, so we vote liberal. I'm great exponent of the common ground. Which

:46:08.:46:14.

is rather different. You would never vote UKIP would you? I don't think I

:46:15.:46:20.

would want to vote UKIP. But I understand why people do vote UKIP.

:46:21.:46:26.

Very often people say to me why don't you leave the stories they

:46:27.:46:29.

have got so far away from you. I always say I have been a member of

:46:30.:46:34.

the Conservative Party since 1946, I'm not going to be ousted by people

:46:35.:46:38.

who are in charge at the moment. You know! Thank you. That's all for

:46:39.:46:50.

tonight, liver Football Club today commemorated the 96 people who lost

:46:51.:46:54.

their lives 25 years ago at Hillsborough. We leave you not with

:46:55.:46:58.

that but the voice of the Anfield Kop two days earlier before Sunday's

:46:59.:47:01.

game when it felt like it was more than just a football game the people

:47:02.:47:05.

of Liverpool had finally won. Good Good night.

:47:06.:47:12.

# Walk on # Through the rain

:47:13.:47:19.

# Walk on # Through rain

:47:20.:47:35.

# For your dreams will be whole # Walk on

:47:36.:47:44.

# With hope # In your heart

:47:45.:48:02.

# And you'll never walk alone # You'll never walk alone

:48:03.:48:13.

# Walk on # Walk on

:48:14.:48:19.

# With hope in your hearts Another cold one out there tonight, but

:48:20.:48:22.

another fine day to look forward to for England and Wales, through

:48:23.:48:27.

tomorrow, any more sunshine to come. Windy north and west, cloudy with

:48:28.:48:30.

rain extending in across Northern Ireland and Scotland, particularly

:48:31.:48:33.

across western areas, a real change in the weather, feeling cooler here.

:48:34.:48:38.

This is the snapshot mid-afternoon, patchy rain into Northern Ireland,

:48:39.:48:40.

west

:48:41.:48:42.

In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines with Jeremy Paxman, looking at Ukraine, Labour's economics, whether Britain is the world's most sexist country, Syrian jihadis and social media, and Norman Tebbit as a children's author.