16/04/2014 Newsnight


16/04/2014

In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines with Jeremy Paxman.


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Transcript


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First, the Ukrainian government issues an ultimatum to protesters,

:00:00.:00:09.

then it tries to enforce it, without any great you can ises. Some of its

:00:10.:00:14.

soldiers are disarmed and captured by the very people they were

:00:15.:00:20.

supposed to be suppress. The Ukrainian soldiers have been put in

:00:21.:00:23.

the buses behind us. They are being bussed away. They had their weapons

:00:24.:00:28.

taken away from them. Is there a looming point at which this proxy

:00:29.:00:33.

confrontation between Russia and the West turns into something worse? The

:00:34.:00:40.

man cleared of murdering PC Keith Blakelock talks for the first time

:00:41.:00:44.

about what happened that night. I was on the estate when PC Blakelock

:00:45.:00:50.

died, but I wasn't near. I wasn't in no crowd chasing him. I wasn't in no

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crowd urging anyone on to do anything to him. One woman and lots

:00:56.:01:02.

of other people's dogs. How working for yourself is the new big thing in

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employment. From the horrors of the civil war in

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the Central African Republic, the story of a Christian and a Muslim

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leader working together to prove it doesn't have to be an eye for an

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eye. There are talks in Geneva tomorrow

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which are supposed to help to defuse the crisis in Ukraine. The omens

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aren't good. The government in Kiev hasn't been able to ex-cert its will

:01:44.:01:47.

in eastern Ukraine and Russia is still talking about the danger of

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civil war. NATO estimates there are about 40,000 Russian troops massed

:01:52.:01:55.

on the border. The Secretary General says NATO forces on land, sea and

:01:56.:02:01.

air will be deployed shortly. Yet, no western power has saided they

:02:02.:02:06.

will intervene militarily. We're going to hear the broader

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implications in a moment, first, Gabriel Gatehouse reports from the

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scene. Today was the day Kiev sent in troops to try to get control back

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of the east. It didn't go well. Crowds of angry locals, surrounded

:02:25.:02:28.

the soldiers and their armoured vehicles. A warning shot, fired into

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the air, failed to disperse the protesters, just outside the town of

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Kramatorsk. A short while later some of those same armoured vehicles are

:02:42.:02:48.

seen on a Ukrainian TV stations making much faster progress, but

:02:49.:02:52.

flying a Russian flag. What happened? Were they captured or did

:02:53.:02:58.

the soldiers defect? If soldiers are defecting, that could be a

:02:59.:03:02.

game-changer. A massive boost for the separatist movement. If they

:03:03.:03:07.

surrendered on the other hand, what does that say about Kiev's ability

:03:08.:03:14.

to reassert its ability on the region using military means. We

:03:15.:03:17.

found some of the missing armour vehicles, in the hands of

:03:18.:03:22.

pro-Russian militia men. We were told not to film the government

:03:23.:03:27.

soldiers from a Parachute Regiment. While a colleague tried to film, I

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spoke to some of the government soldiers. They told me they had been

:03:33.:03:37.

surrounded by local residents first, then they said armed men arrived,

:03:38.:03:44.

taken over their vehicles. I heard a commander order them to hand over

:03:45.:03:50.

their guns. The Ukrainian soldiers have been put on those buses behind

:03:51.:03:54.

us. They are being bussed away. They had their weapons taken away from

:03:55.:04:01.

them, effectively surrendered. The excited and sometimes angry crowd

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believed something very different. TRANSLATION: They refused to shoot

:04:08.:04:12.

on us. Some have come over to our side. They volunteered to join our

:04:13.:04:18.

forces. The rest have been given food and money and are going home.

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We found the remaining government forces still blockaded in by local

:04:25.:04:28.

residents, enable to advance. The commanding officer told me his men

:04:29.:04:34.

had been taken prisoner not defected. I asked him how he planned

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to take control? TRANSLATION: What do you mean of

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taking control? My understanding that the local population should be

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able to live there in peace. Said he hoped he and his men would pull

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back, withdrawing to their bases in central Ukraine. The locals are

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telling us this morning when they heard about this main group of

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armoured vehicles rumbling into town they came out immediately and

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stopped them until their tracks. These soldiers clearly haven't been

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captured. Safety in numbers, perhaps, but the commander told me

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they are about to withdraw. In key v an inexperienced new government is

:05:19.:05:21.

come under pressure to bring the east under control. It's not clear

:05:22.:05:25.

what the Ukrainian military wanted to achieve today. What is clear,

:05:26.:05:29.

this approach doesn't seem to be working. Was Gabriel Gatehouse in

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eastern Ukraine. What shall we make of the separatist movement? Will it

:05:34.:05:36.

be strong enough to break apart the country? Our diplomatic editor, mark

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Urban, has been looking into the history of the eastern part of the

:05:43.:05:45.

country, its divisions and the strength of pro-Russian public

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opinion. Ukraine, even the name means "pord border land" a place

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where the shifting realities of power has caused frontiers to

:05:55.:06:01.

migrate. The 1922 solvient republic was smaller. It had many Russian

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settlers in the east, which would grow into the industrial heartland,

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home to coalmining and heavy industry, the powerhouse of Ukraine.

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More Russians arrived after the famine engineered by Stalin in the

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1930s left the east depopulated. After the war, he also shifted

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borders westwards, adding land from Poland and other countries,

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absorbing millions of new citizens with a very different perspective to

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the Russians. In 1954, Crimea was added too. Crimea, more than 58%

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Russian, is the only area where they are in the majority and that made

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itses annexation by Russia simpler. In the east, home to 14 million

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Ukrainians, even the Donetsk region doesn't have a Russian majority. It,

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and the neighbour Lugansk have a 39% Russian. Even in the east only 24%

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said yes in a recent survey. In western Ukraine. That was only 1%.

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As for future ties, while most Ukrainians wanted closer ties with

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the EU, it's different in the east. Only 22% said they would vote Yes to

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that there. 62% said they wanted to join Mr Putin's Eurasian Customs

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Union. It's the Gulf over trade, autonomy and the future that could

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break Ukraine it Seve part. Olexander Scherba,

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Ambassador-at-Large in the Ukrainian foreign Ministry. He joins us from

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Kiev. These talks in Geneva tomorrow, what is your Foreign

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Minister going to say at them? Well, we are going to say what we have

:08:04.:08:07.

been saying for quite a while. We don't want to go at war with Russia.

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We don't want war to be a part of our reality. But, also we will talk

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to the West and we will look into the West's eyes and we will remind

:08:26.:08:33.

them that in the last three months this nation was basically fighting

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for democracy and freedom and people were dying for democracy and

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freedom. Now it's the moment of truth for all three sides, for all

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four sides that will be sitting around the table in Geneva. Russia,

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Ukraine, America, and the European Union. You know that there is no

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possibility of NATO forces militarily intervening in Ukraine,

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don't you? We don't think that all the possibilities for the West are

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exhausted. What do you think the West could do then further? First of

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all, tomorrow there will be a chance for the goodwill for the goodwill to

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play its part in this whole drama that is unfolding before our eyes

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from Russia and from the West. If the goodwill doesn't take over, if

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the aggression prevails, then of course the sanctions must be... Must

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toughen up. You do accept, do you, that Russia is exploiting genuine

:09:56.:10:00.

divisions in your country? Absolutely. Absolutely. Ukraine,

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like many, many countries in the world, has many division lines, it's

:10:05.:10:10.

not a reason to take this country apart or dismember them. You just

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heard the statistics, the majority of all the regions that we are

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talking about right now in Ukraine's east stands as supports staying

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within the limits of Ukraine and being a part of Ukraine sovereign

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state. Why has your government been so poor at trying to enforce its

:10:35.:10:42.

will in eastern Ukraine? Because tomorrow is Geneva negotiations.

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And, Russia... Russia's position was very clear. Anything, any bloodshed

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on the ground would derail the negotiations. The soldiers, the

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troops on the ground weren't given the orders, that is the one thing.

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For the other thing, it's a very complicated issue for Ukrainians to

:11:07.:11:16.

get ready, to shoot at own people. And, also to shoot at Russians. Even

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if these own people, even if these foreigners, who came from the

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neighbouring country, are really meaning harm for Ukraine, we have

:11:30.:11:36.

been seeing this nation as a brotherly nation for two decades,

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for hundreds of years. And, it real situation for many, many of us right

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now. If you were so concerned, why did you send in the troops at all?

:11:49.:11:54.

At every stage there seems to have been mishandled. You issue an

:11:55.:11:58.

ultimatum much you don't keep to it. You let another day go by. You say

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you are worried about how the Russians might react, but send in

:12:03.:12:07.

troops. In the end the whole thing is a complete fee sass Coe?

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There has been some miscalculation in some parts today. But he did not

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show the other cities and there are other times where the situation has

:12:23.:12:34.

calmed down today. Thanks to the presence of the army on the ground.

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How do you think this crisis is going to end? I hope that common

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sense will prevail. I hope that tomorrow the Russian delegation will

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come with clear instructions to do their utmost to stop this madness.

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It is madness going on in Ukraine between our nations that have been

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together and have been living in peace with each other for a very

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long time. Thank you for talking to us. There has been a frantic search

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going on to find anyone who might have survived the sinking of a

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passenger ferry off the coast of South Korea. A.D300 people, many

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schoolchildren, are still unaccounted for and as time passes,

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so does hope. The ferry which sank quickly, within a period of two

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hours, sent its distress call at around 9am local time after it began

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to take on water. What precisely calls to sink is not of lesser

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importance than trying to save life or perhaps to recover bodies.

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Joining me from Southampton is Captain John Noble, who was a marine

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salvage expert. From what we know all the circumstances, what do you

:14:04.:14:10.

think happened? It would appear from the passengers and evidence that the

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ship struck something on the sea bed, either the sea bed or something

:14:16.:14:22.

else, like a sunken container, and she was doing something in the order

:14:23.:14:32.

of 18 knotts so as a result of any impact, there would be damage to the

:14:33.:14:38.

ship's hull and there would be water ingress. The ship is said to have

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then listed and then suddenly to have turned over. The initial

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ingress would have been into the area adjacent to the impact took

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place and much will depend on whether the watertight doors were

:14:58.:15:01.

closed immediately or if they remained open. The initial list was

:15:02.:15:08.

quite gradual but then suddenly, she went over and that would indicate

:15:09.:15:17.

that water, possibly, entered the car deck, that they expands and of

:15:18.:15:23.

water gets into that space, stability is severely affected. And

:15:24.:15:28.

as a result, she would have capsized more quickly, as appears to have

:15:29.:15:34.

been the case. Are there lessons from previous sinkings that perhaps

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have not been properly learned? It is too early to say, until we find

:15:41.:15:44.

out what did happen. If the doors were not closed immediately after

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they felt trembling, that would be one mistake, if that is the right

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word. But the lessons of the other cases probably do not apply because

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advances have been made in the design and practice on this type of

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ship, so it is too early to speculate about the exact cause.

:16:15.:16:23.

There are some survivors who have talked about after the initial

:16:24.:16:28.

impact, being told to stay inside. Is that good advice? It is probably

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the standard procedure they had on-board for any incident but my

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suspicion is the crew involved, who are exercising these orders, would

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not have appreciated what was going on and there may have been a bright

:16:46.:16:51.

line in giving occasion on-board, so the initial response to stay where

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you are is probably right. But the seriousness of this event clearly

:16:57.:17:00.

did not get through and as a result, that was the wrong thing to do.

:17:01.:17:05.

Thank you very much for joining us. Thank you. It has not been British

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justice's greatest hour. Almost 30 years after his killing, no-one has

:17:15.:17:17.

been convicted of the murder of police constable Keith Blakelock.

:17:18.:17:21.

The investigation into the horrific murder of one of their own turned

:17:22.:17:24.

into a saga of police incompetence, the most recent chapter of which

:17:25.:17:28.

resulted in the acquittal a week ago today of a man called Nicky Jacobs.

:17:29.:17:33.

He has never spoken to the media about what happened the night PC

:17:34.:17:36.

Blakelock was hacked to death, nor of what it's like to be arrested for

:17:37.:17:43.

a crime like that. But he has now. He talked to Kurt Barling. On

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October the 6th 1985, it is a long way of that those who were there

:17:55.:17:58.

will never forget it. Hundreds of young people, black and white,

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including 16-year-old Nicky Jacobs, clashing in long-running battles

:18:04.:18:08.

which ended in the murder and tragedy. One week ago, Nicky Jacobs

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was found not guilty of the murder of PC Keith Blakelock. It is a cloud

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that has been hanging over him for 29 years. This is the first time he

:18:21.:18:29.

has given an interview. I was throwing stones at police and to be

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honest, I think, looking back, they expected that. Because they did not

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show any respect. The death of Cynthia Jarrett had fuelled the

:18:44.:18:48.

anger of those who chose to write and have certainly, their attitudes

:18:49.:18:52.

once they heard a police officer had died. She died the day before or

:18:53.:19:02.

something like that. So, for me, we would have had that feeling of

:19:03.:19:07.

tit-for-tat. Was there any moment when you thought, I have missed the

:19:08.:19:18.

main event? It did? Mind. Because, like I said, at that time, what

:19:19.:19:27.

officers had done to the black community, it was celebration times.

:19:28.:19:35.

His lawyers decided he should not give evidence at the Old Bailey. He

:19:36.:19:39.

says if he had, he would have said he was nowhere near where PC Keith

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Blakelock was murdered and he was too busy elsewhere throwing stones

:19:44.:19:48.

and Molotov cocktails, for which she was sent to prison for eight years

:19:49.:19:54.

in 1986. I was on the estate when PC Keith Blakelock died but I was not

:19:55.:20:01.

in that crowd. Chasing him, I was not in the crowd urging anyone to do

:20:02.:20:11.

anything to him. I am so glad, they tried to put me there but I was not

:20:12.:20:18.

there. Like I said, I will sleep at night knowing I am not guilty. What

:20:19.:20:22.

I am saying is I did not kill PC Keith Blakelock. Where were you when

:20:23.:20:28.

that happened? I was on the estate, running around, like other kids. We

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know the murder took place and you were not there? I was nowhere near.

:20:34.:20:42.

Whoever said that they saw me there, they are wicked. At his trial, Nicky

:20:43.:20:50.

Jacobs and the family of PC Keith Blakelock listened to evidence from

:20:51.:20:53.

alleged eyewitnesses to the murder who put themselves and Nicky Jacobs

:20:54.:21:01.

at the scene. The jury also decided the evidence was unreliable. Nicky

:21:02.:21:07.

Jacobs says he cannot understand why those who admitted to kicking PC

:21:08.:21:10.

Keith Blakelock were allowed to give evidence against him. Even the

:21:11.:21:16.

witnesses, I am not mad at them, I am not. I mean... I have always

:21:17.:21:28.

grown up in a life, I would not say lifestyle, but then alive whether or

:21:29.:21:33.

certain things you do not do but on top of that, to just lie, to not

:21:34.:21:42.

care, no one knows his family, because these guys are the only

:21:43.:21:45.

people who said they took part in the murder, either with a weapon or

:21:46.:21:52.

not, and they got rewarded. I want a mansion, I want a novella, a sexy

:21:53.:21:56.

wife who can kick me dinner. She would have to be romantic, faithful,

:21:57.:22:02.

give me a couple of youths, son and daughter, send them to school... One

:22:03.:22:07.

of the key planks of the prosecution was a so-called poll in which Nicky

:22:08.:22:13.

Jacobs, aged 18, described in detail the murder of PC Keith Blakelock. It

:22:14.:22:17.

was presented as a confession. Nicky Jacobs says it reflects the feelings

:22:18.:22:22.

of a young man who had lost hope in prison but not yet in life. This is

:22:23.:22:28.

about a 16-year-old boy. I am 45 years old. Do you know what I mean?

:22:29.:22:40.

All of these feelings, this porn, -- poem. There were particular areas

:22:41.:22:47.

the prosecution focused on, chopping him on the fingers and the shoulder

:22:48.:22:51.

and the chest? Chopping him all over and he is killed? What were you

:22:52.:22:55.

thinking, because the prosecution said, it was an admission? Yes. Yes.

:22:56.:23:06.

I mean, if you look and you can see those lyrics, it never says that I,

:23:07.:23:19.

Nicky Jacobs, or me, it is always way. Despite his anger at the

:23:20.:23:26.

decision to prosecute him with a unreliable witnesses and

:23:27.:23:28.

contradictory evidence, Nicky Jacobs feels that as much as him, the

:23:29.:23:32.

family of PC Keith Blakelock were not well served by his trial. If

:23:33.:23:38.

that was one of my family members, I would want justice. I would be

:23:39.:23:43.

outside the courts, petitions, whatever. I would want that. But at

:23:44.:23:49.

the same time, if I had to sit down in the court for six weeks and here

:23:50.:23:55.

that so-called justice about somebody else, then I would be

:23:56.:24:01.

angry. And disappointed at the system. And the establishment, that

:24:02.:24:07.

my husband died for. Nicky Jacobs has been found not guilty and his

:24:08.:24:11.

claims of innocence justified by the verdict. It will take longer to

:24:12.:24:16.

overcome the trauma of being on trial for a wicked crime with the

:24:17.:24:28.

killer is eluding justice. -- killers. What a happy little

:24:29.:24:32.

Chancellor George Osborne must be. Yesterday it was the news that

:24:33.:24:43.

inflation was down. Today, the Office for National Statistics

:24:44.:24:46.

disclosed that unemployment is at 6.9% - its lowest for five years. It

:24:47.:24:50.

is therefore below the point at which the Bank of England used to

:24:51.:24:53.

say it would consider raising interest rates. But within that

:24:54.:24:55.

headline figure is something particularly interesting. The number

:24:56.:24:58.

of people working for someone else went up 3%. But the number of people

:24:59.:25:01.

working for themselves, the self-employed, rose by 9%. Has

:25:02.:25:04.

entrepreneurship taken off or is there another reason? Jim Reed

:25:05.:25:10.

reports. The self-made trader might feel it something straight out of

:25:11.:25:14.

the 1980s but 30 years on, figures and show it as a self-employed,

:25:15.:25:18.

workers like Mary, who are driving the latest recovery in the labour

:25:19.:25:25.

market. The 240,000 new jobs created in the three months, all was two

:25:26.:25:29.

thirds went to workers registered as self-employed. Merely left and

:25:30.:25:34.

administration job at Heathrow to start all over again at the age of

:25:35.:25:39.

53. Her dog sitting business has been going through the recession and

:25:40.:25:41.

has taken on its first proper employee. Wasn't the right decision?

:25:42.:25:48.

The best decision I ever made. I would say to anybody that was

:25:49.:25:55.

looking at this, yes, go for it. Definitely. And it is older workers

:25:56.:26:02.

who have made the bulk of the increase in self-employment since

:26:03.:26:07.

the recession - four out of five of those new jobs have been taken up by

:26:08.:26:11.

somebody over 50. I think because I did feel fairly financially secure,

:26:12.:26:19.

my mortgage was paid, so it did feel like the right time for me to do

:26:20.:26:24.

that so I did still have ten years ahead of me to be able to make a

:26:25.:26:31.

success out of something. Overall, today's figures were the strongest

:26:32.:26:35.

in five years. The number of people out of work fell by 77,000 in three

:26:36.:26:41.

months. 6.9%, the unemployment rate is below the level the Bank of

:26:42.:26:45.

England once said could trigger a rise in rates. Plenty for the

:26:46.:26:50.

Treasury to crow about. Self-employment is an important part

:26:51.:26:54.

of the economy but we are also seeing increasing numbers of

:26:55.:26:57.

permanent jobs, part-time employment and a varied labour market. One of

:26:58.:27:02.

the strengths of the UK economy and by helping build the -- businesses

:27:03.:27:07.

to create jobs, we are seeing more people work in this country than

:27:08.:27:12.

ever before. In previous recoveries, job growth has been led by big

:27:13.:27:15.

private-sector firms and the public sector. This time, that is not

:27:16.:27:19.

happening to the same extent. Instead, more growth appears to be

:27:20.:27:24.

coming from that rise in self-employment and short-term

:27:25.:27:29.

temporary contracts. Critics say that often means greater job

:27:30.:27:34.

insecurity and less pay. Research today shows that 44% of the rise in

:27:35.:27:38.

self-employment has come in lower skilled jobs like cleaning and

:27:39.:27:45.

catering. 28% say that given the choice, they would prefer to be

:27:46.:27:51.

full-time employees. Cathy is returning to rework is a landscape

:27:52.:27:55.

gardener after leaving her job in publishing at the start of the

:27:56.:27:58.

recession. She has been registered as self-employed, juggling studies

:27:59.:28:02.

with temporary contracts and freelance work. There are lots of

:28:03.:28:07.

low paid part-time zero hours contract work out their but how can

:28:08.:28:14.

you plan when you don't get paid and the children are sick? For me, the

:28:15.:28:20.

regularity of income and working hours and all of the other things

:28:21.:28:26.

are going with employment and offer more of what I am looking for these

:28:27.:28:32.

days. As the economy grows, so the idea is that people are Cathy will

:28:33.:28:37.

be able to get off those freelance contracts and join full-time work.

:28:38.:28:40.

That will decide whether the self-employment boom is a temporary

:28:41.:28:46.

lip to get us through deep recession or a longer term change to the way

:28:47.:28:54.

we work in this country. Nicola Smith is Head of Economic and Social

:28:55.:29:01.

Affairs at TUC. Allister Heath is editor of City AM. They join me now.

:29:02.:29:06.

Why is this happening? This is a real shift, what we have seen

:29:07.:29:12.

Staines 2010 is 40% of net jobs growth has been in self-employment

:29:13.:29:16.

and we have seen trends that are driving that change. That represents

:29:17.:29:22.

2010. We have find that the number of people starting their own

:29:23.:29:26.

business has gone down on the number who say they are contracting and

:29:27.:29:30.

freelancing is what is driving that increase going up. But why? I think

:29:31.:29:36.

it is happening because the labour market is still weak, were still

:29:37.:29:40.

recovering. That tells us something. Why?

:29:41.:29:47.

In the first phase because of the economic collapse, people had no

:29:48.:29:50.

choice. The choice was, either you are out of work, you are not earning

:29:51.:29:54.

anything, or you become a consultant and go freelance. The second phase

:29:55.:29:58.

is different. That is what we are seeing at the moment. A lot of

:29:59.:30:02.

people are choosing to be self employed at the moment. In some

:30:03.:30:06.

cases older people returning to work and other people going off on their

:30:07.:30:11.

own, start up their own business and be independent. There is a cultural

:30:12.:30:14.

change. The workforce is changing in ways that are quite positive. OK. We

:30:15.:30:19.

will come to whether they are positive or negative in a moment or

:30:20.:30:22.

two. It tells us something about the nature of this recession, doesn't,

:30:23.:30:26.

it the emergence from recession that the growth... The really notable

:30:27.:30:32.

growth is in self employment? I think it's telling us there is still

:30:33.:30:36.

a lot of weakness in the jobs market. There is still a lot of

:30:37.:30:41.

ground to make up. When we look at the detail self employed figures,

:30:42.:30:45.

you reported on some in your report, there since 2008, I think, the

:30:46.:30:48.

number of people who say they are self employed working in social care

:30:49.:30:53.

has gone up by 29%. The number of people who say they are self

:30:54.:30:57.

employed working in retail has gone up. That says to me there is a lot

:30:58.:31:01.

more insecure, low paid jobs in social care that are of a poorer

:31:02.:31:06.

quality than we heard before. More people are in work, that work is

:31:07.:31:10.

poorly paid and insecure. This takes us into the field that Alastair was

:31:11.:31:15.

just raising. Is it a good thing or bad thing? Why do you think it's a

:31:16.:31:19.

good thing? Two things. First of all, whether the recession people

:31:20.:31:22.

have no choice, I would rather as many as possible become self

:31:23.:31:27.

employed rather than become totally excluded from the labour market. In

:31:28.:31:35.

past recessions unemployment went up before because people didn't have

:31:36.:31:37.

the ability to be self employed. People have become more self

:31:38.:31:41.

reliant. It's good people want to work for themselves. Good that fewer

:31:42.:31:45.

people want to work for large companies. Why? It's more exciting.

:31:46.:31:50.

It's more creative and liberating. The more you see successful people

:31:51.:31:55.

going it alone and choosing to be self employed the better. It creates

:31:56.:31:59.

a die Nattic society. The a society where people will innovate and

:32:00.:32:02.

create new companies, jabs for others and so on. I'm quite behind

:32:03.:32:08.

that - It sounds a different view from the one you were outlining? I'm

:32:09.:32:12.

in favour of people starting their businesses and taking new people on.

:32:13.:32:15.

As I said earlier, we don't think the data show that is is what is

:32:16.:32:19.

happening. Our worry is, as we recover from recession, we see

:32:20.:32:26.

strong jobs growth, we aren't seeing job growth where wages are strong

:32:27.:32:32.

and we will get strength for the future. We see large numbers of jobs

:32:33.:32:38.

growing in low paid sectors and increasing the extent to which the

:32:39.:32:42.

jobs are insecure and poorly trained. Workers classify them as

:32:43.:32:49.

being on a self employed contract but you are delivering packages, or

:32:50.:32:55.

you are a social careworker but by making themselves self employed they

:32:56.:33:02.

avoid employment rights. If that was a permanent part of our economy

:33:03.:33:06.

would be negative. How much is to do with the benefit situation? I'm not

:33:07.:33:09.

sure there is a strong link with the benefit situation in particular. I

:33:10.:33:12.

think people who are on benefits desperately want to move into work.

:33:13.:33:19.

The big growth is in what is rather confusingly called "elementary

:33:20.:33:23.

employment" low skilled jobs, as you say? These jobs need to exist. A lot

:33:24.:33:27.

of people with low skills, great they are working. I think this is a

:33:28.:33:32.

really positive set of numbers. Huge increase in employment. Longest

:33:33.:33:38.

increase since 1989 since the Lawson boom. Half of the jobs over the past

:33:39.:33:43.

year are employee jobs, the other half are self employed. A lot of the

:33:44.:33:47.

jobs are low skilled. It's great these people are finding work. Good

:33:48.:33:54.

thing more people have jobs. A growth in self employment has

:33:55.:33:57.

cultural consequences too for the nation, doesn't it? You hinted at

:33:58.:34:02.

that? I like the cultural consequences. Independence and the

:34:03.:34:05.

fact people are, woing in smaller units is a good thing. You call it

:34:06.:34:10.

independence, others would call it insecurity. Poor terms and

:34:11.:34:14.

conditions, depressed incomes, wider trend towards those on lower and

:34:15.:34:18.

middle incomes getting a smaller share of the nation's incomes. The

:34:19.:34:23.

latest data, which aren't particularly up-to-date, a Hansard

:34:24.:34:27.

reference shows the average income is ?10,000 a year. We know people

:34:28.:34:31.

who are self employed, adown group of them are likely to be working at

:34:32.:34:37.

below minimum wage earnings. That isn't good for our jobs market. By

:34:38.:34:43.

definition self employed people may work fewer hours than full-time

:34:44.:34:47.

people their income may be lower. May work more. We used to be in a

:34:48.:34:51.

social where people went to work for a big company, that is was their

:34:52.:34:56.

dream, 9-5 jobs, 40 years. That is over. That can be a liberating

:34:57.:34:59.

development. In some case it is's insecurity. In some cases people

:35:00.:35:04.

aren't choosing to be self employed. 27% of the people who became self

:35:05.:35:08.

employed over the past five or six years say that they didn't choose to

:35:09.:35:12.

be self employed. That is half a million people though. It's a very

:35:13.:35:18.

large number of people. Given the horrendous recession and the

:35:19.:35:21.

collapse in the economic output, given what happened that is a small

:35:22.:35:24.

number. That is positive. You have to look in the context of which

:35:25.:35:28.

people are making a choice. It's good they are in a job rather than

:35:29.:35:33.

no job. More people have remained in work during this recession. Terms

:35:34.:35:38.

and conditions of pay have been severely depressed in away that is

:35:39.:35:41.

historically unprecedented. We can't say that is good for our economy or

:35:42.:35:44.

wages going forward. Thank you very much. The United Nations and various

:35:45.:35:48.

aid agencies launched an appeal for the best part of ?300 million to

:35:49.:35:55.

help refugees from the fighting in the Central African Republic. The

:35:56.:35:58.

country has been tipped into chaos since a mainly Muslim rebel

:35:59.:36:03.

coalition seized power a year ago, started abusing the Christian

:36:04.:36:06.

population and set off waves of revenge attacks, which have driven

:36:07.:36:11.

great numbers of Muslims out of the country. Terrible conflict has

:36:12.:36:16.

brought forth two remarkable peacemakers. Tim Whewell has been on

:36:17.:36:23.

the road with them in the Central African Republic. It was always dirt

:36:24.:36:26.

poor, perhaps the least valued of all of France's African possessions.

:36:27.:36:31.

The French left a taste for combat owe in the capital, but not much

:36:32.:36:37.

else. Now, a country that has always been misruled is in ruins. The only

:36:38.:36:42.

authority, a few thousand foreign peacekeepers. In the last few

:36:43.:36:50.

months, it's been violent cleansed of Muslims. Once they were 15% of

:36:51.:36:53.

the population. Now, their homes are burned, thousands have been killed,

:36:54.:36:57.

most of the rest have fled abroad. You might think it's all about

:36:58.:37:02.

religion, but two friends, one Christian, one Muslim, are setting

:37:03.:37:07.

out on a journey to try to prove it's not. They are the top Christian

:37:08.:37:14.

and Muslim in the country. An Archbishop and the chief Imam. They

:37:15.:37:17.

go everywhere together. Now, they are heading off on an

:37:18.:37:29.

arduous journey into the interior of the country to talk to the killers.

:37:30.:37:49.

Even for men of God, it won't be easy. Over the last two months, two

:37:50.:37:56.

murderous militias have rampaged down this road, burning, looting,

:37:57.:38:07.

killing, often at random. First, the mainly Muslim and Christian, their

:38:08.:38:11.

crimes provoked the cycle of revenge that is now destroying this country.

:38:12.:38:16.

The rebels are now defeated and confined to barracks in many places.

:38:17.:38:20.

They seized power a year ago, committing many atrocities. To the

:38:21.:38:28.

Imam's sorrow, some Muslim civilians took part.

:38:29.:38:50.

The anti--Balaca. Today, of course, they are just fooling around. But

:38:51.:39:09.

they kill Muslims for real, even though they call it self defence

:39:10.:39:11.

against foreigners. This is the third village we passed

:39:12.:39:58.

on a fairly short stretch of road, which has been almost completely

:39:59.:40:02.

burnt. The countryside around here, for miles and miles, is being

:40:03.:40:09.

completely emptied of Muslims. Bravely, the Imams got out to try to

:40:10.:40:16.

persuade anti--Balaka fighters to go home. It's a tense moment. The

:40:17.:40:22.

informal toll gate they have erected here is a money-spinner.

:40:23.:40:37.

With militia ruling the roads, it's anarchy. Further on, thousands of

:40:38.:40:47.

Christians are still sheltering around the cathedral. They fled the

:40:48.:40:57.

Seleka months ago. This woman told them how the Muslim rebels killed

:40:58.:41:00.

her son. She gets a blessing, but there is

:41:01.:41:33.

little else the Archbishop can do for he. She takes us to see why. The

:41:34.:41:41.

Seleka stripped her home of everything. It's the first time

:41:42.:41:45.

she's been back. Behind, what is left of her son's

:41:46.:41:56.

house. It's too much for her grandson,

:41:57.:42:24.

Franklin. Not far away, the Archbishop and the Imam are trying

:42:25.:42:28.

to persuade the few remaining local Muslims to stay. If they flee, like

:42:29.:42:32.

most of the others, there will be no hope of rebuilding a mixed society

:42:33.:42:36.

here. But they are met with a wall of distrust.

:42:37.:42:53.

Back on the road, the in in day, the Archbishop refuses to be down cast.

:42:54.:43:01.

A few bumps can't shake their sense of purpose.

:43:02.:43:09.

Does the chief Imam ever worry he might be the last Imam, perhaps the

:43:10.:43:13.

last Muslim in the country? In the market at the next stop, I

:43:14.:43:28.

find one of the only two Muslims left in a town which had thousands.

:43:29.:43:34.

This butcher was allowed to stay bus of his skills. Muslims dominated the

:43:35.:43:42.

meat trade. It He is afraid to tell me much. -- he is afraid to tell me

:43:43.:43:49.

much. His wife will never forget the day

:43:50.:43:56.

when all the other Muslims fled for their lives.

:43:57.:44:19.

It's been a journey when the two friends' pleas for reconciliation

:44:20.:44:30.

has fallen on stoney ground, but they are not giving up.

:44:31.:44:47.

They are heading back to the capital, then abroad, to urge

:44:48.:44:54.

western leaders to send more peacekeepers before it's too late.

:44:55.:45:02.

Perhaps it already is. Back in Bangui I find the tail end of the

:45:03.:45:08.

exodus. Some of the capital's last Muslims leaving the country in any

:45:09.:45:12.

vehicles they can find. Ethnic cleansing is almost complete. Still,

:45:13.:45:21.

the world looks the other way. That was Tim Whewell aring l reporting.

:45:22.:45:31.

Now the front pages: The Financial Times: Apparently, Scots are being

:45:32.:45:42.

misled by some of the claims for the campaign for Yes for independence,

:45:43.:45:46.

according to the Daily Telegraph. The Times has further news that the

:45:47.:45:53.

trouble within UKIP about their funding. That's about enough for

:45:54.:46:00.

tonight I think. The World Irish Dancing Championships are being held

:46:01.:46:02.

in London this week for the first time in their 44 year history. Along

:46:03.:46:08.

with the glory, this is the sort of trophy that successful competitors

:46:09.:46:14.

can expect to receive. We have two World Champions, in their age group,

:46:15.:46:22.

with us tonight, Gerard Byne and Julia O'rubg. He's from Donny gall,

:46:23.:46:26.

she's from New York, both of them know a thing or two about a reel.

:46:27.:46:29.

Good night. -- O' -Rourke. Brightness to southern and eastern

:46:30.:48:06.

areas, cloudier further north, breezy with showery rain. Not a lot

:48:07.:48:08.

of

:48:09.:48:09.

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