11/04/2014 Newsnight


11/04/2014

With Laura Kuenssberg. Does the Pistorius trial make cameras more or less likely in UK courts? Plus, the latest from Ukraine, the Indian election and remembering Sue Townsend.


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conditions. Mind you, it all adds up to the annual intrigue that is the

:00:00.:00:16.

Masters. in a courtroom in Pretoria. Another

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session in a courtroom in Pretoria. Another

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millions of viewers. Today the prosecution asked Oscar Pistorius

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why he prosecution asked Oscar Pistorius

:02:41.:02:46.

coming from the bathroom. When you heard the narcs you

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coming from the bathroom. When you discuss the noise with her. You

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didn't say "Reeva did discuss the noise with her. You

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not. Viewers are left with pictures broadcast instead of the images of

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him. broadcast instead of the images of

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feel unfamiliar and uncomfortable. But audience interest is high. The

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BBC has been showing live testimony every day, as has Sky which has

:03:30.:03:33.

broadcast an evening highlights programme. Foreign news, in general,

:03:34.:03:38.

tends to attract lower ratings, but the mix of celebrity and dramatic

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court footage has made this one of the few exceptions.

:03:43.:03:46.

The first case to get this global exposure involved another sportsman.

:03:47.:03:53.

The OJ Simpson trial made stars of the lawyers involved. The gloves

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don't fit, do you understand that, don't fit. We have seen the

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televised soap opera that was the Amanda Knox trial. And in the Hague

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the conviction of Charles Taylor, but that also involves an element of

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celebrity at times. The man questioning Naomi Campbell in that

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courtroom said it is inevitable that fully televised trials will one day

:04:20.:04:24.

reach our shores. I think it is a very good idea. One has to realise

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that the courtroom in a sense belongs to the public at large. The

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jury are there as our representatives, and it seems to me

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that it is important that the public see how the process operates, I

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think it is important in democratic society that the law is seen in

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operation to its full extent. And not just the snippets which are

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currently available in the press or on the 6.00 News. So far attempted

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to film inside British courts have been very limited. The outcome of

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cases at the Supreme Court and some limited Appeal Court sessions have

:05:04.:05:07.

been shown, but this is hardly the OJ Simpson trial. The kind of dry

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judgments and verdicts shown in courts like this one are, let's face

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it, never going to be a huge box-office attraction, it is clearly

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large criminal trials, like the Pistorius case, which broadcasters

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would dearly love to see on screen. We are starting to see that happen.

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Last year cameras were allowed inside a murder trial for the first

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time in Edinburgh, where Scottish law leaves the decision to film up

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to the judge. Under plans for England and Wales the judge's

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sentencing remarks could be filmed, many barristers are wary of going

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any further. The public will get to see select pieces of the trial, bits

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and pieces that are salacious, that shows who broadcast want to focus

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on. They will get a selective idea of the trial, if we're not careful

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we are going to find there is going to be trial by public and in days of

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social media the storm that can create from an imbalanced view of

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the trial might infect the justice system. An example of transparent

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justice, or a media circus, the Pistorius trial shows there is a

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huge appetite for this time of reality television. Whether it is a

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healthy appetite is another matter. With us now is the barrister and

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presenter, Clive Anderson, who is in favour of cameras in court. And

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Julian Young a solicitor advocate who thinks they turn courtrooms into

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a circus. There is a circus in the Pistorius case as an example, do you

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really want to see that kind of thing in this country? Yes, it is a

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gripping but grizzly trial, I would like to see how the trial is going

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on. At the end of the case there will be a decision and verdict. In

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this case it is a judge with her two assessors, in an English trial it

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would be woo likely to be -- would likely to be a jury. We would like a

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notion will have we would agree with it or justice. What is so wrong with

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it? It sensationalises and trivialises something where a person

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could lose their liberty or good name. Even if they are acquitted the

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idea of no smoke without fire, if whoever watches it sees the

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highlights and decides I think he's guilty and it doesn't matter what

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the jury thought, and goes out and tries to exact revenge. There are

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people who are vulnerable. Witnesses who have never given evidence before

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who don't want to give evidence. There are people who may want to

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grandstand, they could be lawyers, a judge, or the defendant or the

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defendant's friends in the public gallery, to cut that off

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unexpectedly gives a false impression of what is really going

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on. In a sense what we already see in the newspapers and reports, they

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are already an edited version of what has happened. What would be so

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different about this perhaps it would be better because people will

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be able to watch proceedings live and uncut? Who wants to sit and

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watch, for example, an expert give evidence, highly technical evidence,

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maybe for several hours and be cross-examined, it doesn't tell you

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how the system works, the standard of proof, the burden of proof, the

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responsibility of the judge and the jury. It would be so boring. That

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bit doesn't tell you but the rest of it does. Juries go along -- jurors

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go along thinking it is like trials in American films, there will be

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advocates walking up and down asking questions, there will be objections

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sustained, at the very least you might concede this will be an

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educative process for potential jurors to see how the courtrooms

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work. You can have education as a mock trial and education for

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children in schools about what happens to a Crown Court. You do

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mock trials but you show it to dozens of people at a time, this is

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for millions of people to see. They will not see what is actually

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happening all the time, they don't sit from a whole period of time from

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10-1, from 2-4. 30, from beginning to end, they would be bored out of

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their minds. Can I raise a point about televising parliament, from

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1975 they put radio microphones into the House of Lords, it took until

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1990s for the House of Commons to say OK. Young viewers must be

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thinking not having cameras in parliament, you mean Prime

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Minister's Question Time went on without the public. All these same

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questions were raised about parliament. How many people watch

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BBC Parliament, relatively view. Many, many people it could be, but

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there is a very important point, does it not risk people changing

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their behaviour in a way that politicians change their behaviour

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when there is a camera around. People all behave differently when

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there are cameras around. Couldn't that affect the outcome of the case?

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There is a point there. Those things were said about MPs in parents I

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don't think anybody can now say whether MPs' behaviour has got

:10:10.:10:10.

better or worse. This is the justice system not rowdy

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debate. Lots of other countries do this. Louis Woodward was an English

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nanny on trial in America, Boston, Massachusetts, there was some doubts

:10:29.:10:31.

about how fair the trial was. As a result there was a lot of interest.

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If she had been on trial in Boston Lincolnshire we would have never

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have seen it or had the interest, and she would have spent rather

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longer in prison than she had to. Would you say that an American case

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like that, or in the South African justice system, would you contend

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their systems don't work or are as good as our's because they have

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allowed a camera in? It is whether or not you can educate the public

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what are you going to tell and teach them. And the dangers that may flow

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from the public seeing something. Lith let's take a defendant who has

:11:03.:11:07.

a difficult personal -- let's take a defendant who has a very difficult

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personal life, the young Mr kiss President Chiracs he has social

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disadvantages and he's disabled, if other inmates in a prison got to

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watch that on television and realise he's weak f he's convicted and sent

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to prison, especially in this country where prisoners are quite

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often very cruel, the danger would be they would pick upon that person,

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having been put into the prison system. Are you just not rummaging

:11:30.:11:35.

around for reasons not to make a change. I'm frightened of "Legal

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Idol" a television spectacle, where you can vote for a guilty or not

:11:44.:11:46.

guilty verdict. I don't think that is appropriate, the judge and the

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jury will still take the decision, it is just, it is are a public place

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a courtroom, as it is there is a public gallery, if people want to

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interfere with witnesses or find out about defendants they can be there

:11:57.:11:59.

any way. It is reported in the papers. If they are that interested

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they can go to court and watch the real thing without it being

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televised. Television is not real. It is in another dimension. It is a

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bit more immediate than waiting for Clive Coleman to come out on to the

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street and say there was nasty question asked there and there was

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hesitation. We want to see the actual process. Just very briefly to

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both of you. Do you think, given the way the flow of information is

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speeding up all the time, anybody walking down the street with a

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smartphone can take a picture and tweet what they like about who they

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see outside the Old Bailey or anywhere else, do you think actually

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you will be able to hold the line, this is going to happen one day

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isn't it? It may happen one day, but there will have to be a lot of

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checks and balances to make sure it is completely fair and there are no

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dangers to the concept of justice. I think it will happen one day and in

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ten years' time we will play back this conversation and think how

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backward-looking I was, you can tweet from court now, has allowed

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ahead of televising it. We will keep care of this tape of this discussion

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tonight and have a look in a decade's time. Thank you very much

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for coming in. More official diplomatic wrangling

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is planned for Ukraine. The European Union confirmed in the last few

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hours there will be a meeting between Russia, Ukraine, the United

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States and the EU in Geneva next Thursday. But talking hasn't exactly

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done much so far. NATO nowadays 40,000 Russian troops have been

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moved to Ukraine's borders. Its secretary-general, has urged Russia

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to pull back. I think it should be that Russia pulls back its troops

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and contributes to a de-escalation of the situation. Our diplomatic

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editor is with us now. What evidence has NATO got for the troops all

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massing up on the boarder in a rather menacing way? It has been

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going on for a few weeks. There have been open source things in the

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Russian media. But the latest is the release of these pictures. NATO has

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got these from commercial satellites, it is not the American

:14:13.:14:17.

big bird that looks down. These are commercial low-operated --

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commercial low-operated satellites, they have shown a picture of an

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airfield to the north-east of ucreate. You look at that and think

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you can't see much there. If you go right in on the boxed areas

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highlight bid the NATO analyst, you can see on the left of frame the

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darker shapes, the fighters, on the right the lighter shapes the

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bombers. NATO said there was no planes at all at this airfield a few

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months ago before the crisis blew up. Another example, what NATO says

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is a Russian motor rifle regiment, that is several thousand men. You

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can see the armoureded vehicles neatly lined up on the left of frame

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and long lines of trucks and other so called B-vehicles on the right.

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Russia said the pictures were taken months ago. NATO has counted, anyone

:15:12.:15:15.

can look at this commercial eptity, digital globe and look at these

:15:16.:15:19.

pictures for themselves and establish when they were taken. It

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shows the difficulties of using intelligence evidence to make a

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political case. Absolutely, should we be alarmed by seeing these images

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and now there are going to be more talks, what can we expect to happen

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next? I think interestingly we have seen statements today from Sergei

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Lavrov, the Russian foreign minister and the acting Prime Minister of

:15:39.:15:42.

Ukraine that show the two sides squaring up before these talks. We

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get a pretty clear idea now that Russia's agenda is to get this

:15:48.:15:51.

interim Ukrainian Government to agree to constitutional changes that

:15:52.:15:56.

will give this area where the pro--Putin, Russian demonstrators in

:15:57.:16:00.

the east and south of Ukraine have taken buildings and steps, it will

:16:01.:16:06.

give them considerable autonomy. The Russian agenda before the elections

:16:07.:16:10.

plan for May 25th is lock in constitutional change to give those

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areas a veto over any area closer to the EU or NATO.

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Thank you very much indeed. Now the world's biggest election looks

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likely to be won by a politician who boasts of a humble small town

:16:26.:16:33.

background. He's the favourite to beat the latest son of the Gandhi

:16:34.:16:39.

dynasty. His own history is hardly without question. He was in charge

:16:40.:16:50.

of gut Gujarat province after 1,000 Muslims were killed. Although it was

:16:51.:16:54.

not proven he looked the other way, many have warned against him taking

:16:55.:17:04.

charge. India, the world's largest democracy and home to more than one.

:17:05.:17:09.

Two billion people. It is one of the fastest-growing economies in the

:17:10.:17:13.

world. Yet 400 million people live on less than a pound a day. It is

:17:14.:17:19.

sending missions to Mars, whilst a quarter of households in the capital

:17:20.:17:27.

don't have a regular water supply. It is a nuclear-armed major

:17:28.:17:31.

political player. Predicted to be the world's third-largest economy by

:17:32.:17:38.

2030. That is a why who leads this country is so important. If you

:17:39.:17:46.

believe the polls so far this is likely to be the country's next

:17:47.:17:54.

leader. The deeply controversial and devisive, head of the BJP. He's

:17:55.:18:06.

credited with turning around the economy in his area, and given rise

:18:07.:18:11.

to Modi mania. He's the man many hold responsible of allowing the

:18:12.:18:16.

massacre of 1,000 people, mostly Muslim, in riots in Gujarat in 2002.

:18:17.:18:22.

They started after a fire broke out on a train carrying Hindu pilgrim,

:18:23.:18:28.

killing 60 people. Local Muslims were blamed and Hindus caught

:18:29.:18:33.

revenge. He stands accused of failing to stop the bloodshed and

:18:34.:18:38.

even encouraging the violence. He's always denied the claims and an

:18:39.:18:42.

investigation cleared him. What happens in India is also being

:18:43.:18:47.

keenly watched by the one. Four million British Indians living here

:18:48.:18:51.

in the UK. He remains as controversial here as he does in

:18:52.:18:55.

India. Writing in today's Guardian, well known British Indians like

:18:56.:19:01.

Salman Rushdie, have said an India under him would be bad news for all

:19:02.:19:06.

Indians. But after ten years of rule by a weakened Congress Party, voters

:19:07.:19:12.

are ready for a change. His supporters say an India with him at

:19:13.:19:18.

the helm would mean a stronger, more decisive and economically robust

:19:19.:19:23.

potential superpower. If he comes to power, it will be a right-ward shift

:19:24.:19:28.

in the politics of the country. That's very, very clear. That is why

:19:29.:19:34.

corporate India is totally backing him. We may well have a Government

:19:35.:19:40.

that will want to open up the economy, maybe much more than it has

:19:41.:19:46.

and invite foreign direct investment, maybe it will mean more

:19:47.:19:49.

political stability than we have seen in the last four or five years.

:19:50.:19:56.

The key question for many Indians is whether he will be able to unite

:19:57.:20:01.

this hugely diverse country, and make the most of its enormous

:20:02.:20:10.

economic potential. With us now is the chairman of Cobra beer speaking

:20:11.:20:16.

to us from India. With us in the studio is a member of the Black

:20:17.:20:21.

Sisters, one of the signatories for a letter of many cultural and

:20:22.:20:26.

artistic figures raising concerns about the man. Thank you for joining

:20:27.:20:32.

us. Even here in Britain many people are concerned about Modi as being a

:20:33.:20:39.

devisive figure. You can't deny he could potentially divide the

:20:40.:20:50.

country, can you? We are witnessing the world's largest directions, 800

:20:51.:20:55.

million voters, we went to a polling station and I saw electronic voting

:20:56.:20:59.

that we don't have in the UK, working brilliantly, and it is the

:21:00.:21:04.

Indian population engaging, there are turnouts in India of 66%, 67%,

:21:05.:21:11.

it was absolutely marvellous to see democracy in action. Indian

:21:12.:21:15.

democracy has worked in the past. When the BJP were in Government in

:21:16.:21:20.

2004, it was the India Shining Government, they created a lot of

:21:21.:21:23.

economic reforms, but they were not able to get re-elected and the

:21:24.:21:26.

Congress Party had been in Government for the past ten years.

:21:27.:21:30.

Now there seems to be a sentiment on the ground here in India that people

:21:31.:21:36.

want change and overall whoever I talk to there seems to be a

:21:37.:21:41.

consensus that Modi is most probably going to be the Prime Minister with

:21:42.:21:46.

the BJP possibly getting over 200 seats and with their Alliance

:21:47.:21:53.

partners getting over the 272 required to form a majority

:21:54.:21:57.

Government. It does seem as if he will be the next leader of the

:21:58.:22:01.

country. But he is devisive, there are suspicions about whether he

:22:02.:22:05.

looked the other way when those terrible riots in gunge Gujarat took

:22:06.:22:11.

place, do you accept there are concerns about his record? There is

:22:12.:22:17.

no question that he was very soon after he took over as chief minister

:22:18.:22:22.

of Gujarat, where he has been elected three times, soon after he

:22:23.:22:27.

became chief minister these awful, awful atrocities took place, which

:22:28.:22:31.

didn't just shock India but the world. Overall these years, over ten

:22:32.:22:38.

years, when his opponents have been in power, has not been convicted and

:22:39.:22:42.

Britain did not have relations with Gujarat as the founding chair of the

:22:43.:22:46.

UK Business Council, I was not allowed to take delegations to

:22:47.:22:51.

Gujarat. In 2012 Britain decided to reopen its links with Gujarat

:22:52.:22:57.

through the British Foreign Minister Hugo Swire, since 2012 we have had

:22:58.:23:05.

relations with him because he has not been convicted of anything. The

:23:06.:23:09.

courts have looked at it and it looks like he will win fairly and

:23:10.:23:15.

squarely in a vast exercise of democracy? I think he will be very,

:23:16.:23:21.

very dangerous, he poses a serious threat to the secular fabric of

:23:22.:23:25.

Indian democracy. The very democracy that Lord Villimoria praises for

:23:26.:23:33.

functions is the very democracy that he poses a threat to. He and his RSS

:23:34.:23:41.

and his Hindu right, nationalist, supremacist party that he belongs to

:23:42.:23:45.

pose a real threat because of the very ideolgical framework from which

:23:46.:23:51.

they operate. This idea that we can praise Indian democracy for

:23:52.:23:55.

functioning without looking at where the threats to that democracy is

:23:56.:24:02.

coming from is simply niave What is it, you say his ideas are a threat,

:24:03.:24:07.

which ideas and why? He was shaped and nutured by the RSS, which is a

:24:08.:24:12.

right-wing extremist Hindu supremacist party. A party whose

:24:13.:24:24.

members have actually admired German and Italian fascism, and those who

:24:25.:24:34.

assassinated Gandhi. The people who founded India had a vision of India

:24:35.:24:40.

as an incluesive, plural democracy and this is the very ideas that Moi

:24:41.:24:48.

and his aides, and his Hindu cohorts and aides are trying to destroy.

:24:49.:24:52.

They hide behind this idea that he has presided over an economic

:24:53.:24:57.

miracle in Gujarat, that is simply not true. Those are strong

:24:58.:25:00.

accusations to make about him. But many people do appear to have

:25:01.:25:06.

concerns about his views, will the British Government, should the

:25:07.:25:12.

British Government turn a blind eye to those concerns with regard to

:25:13.:25:19.

important trade with India? I don't think anyone is turning a blind eye,

:25:20.:25:24.

I think that where he's concerned and the BJP they will look back to

:25:25.:25:27.

that time when they were in Government ten years ago and they

:25:28.:25:31.

were not re-elected because it was seen they were not being inclusive

:25:32.:25:34.

enough with their policies, the India Shining, getting on to the

:25:35.:25:39.

growth path, and I require the growth rates hitting 8%. But unless

:25:40.:25:44.

it reached out and was inclusive they didn't get elected. The party

:25:45.:25:47.

in January, a party that didn't exist a year ago got elected to run

:25:48.:25:53.

the City of Delhi, the capital of India. It didn't last very long

:25:54.:25:58.

because it was unable to deliver. So Mohdi will be judged if he becomes

:25:59.:26:01.

Prime Minister on his ability to deliver. India is a secular and

:26:02.:26:14.

plurist country. Nobody can run it without recognising it is a secular

:26:15.:26:19.

country. It will be governance on the ground and excuse of the

:26:20.:26:22.

governance, that is what he will be judged off. He says he is man of

:26:23.:26:27.

action and he will encourage business and investment. The Gujarat

:26:28.:26:31.

community in the UK is a very important part of the UK. The Indian

:26:32.:26:36.

community in the UK contributes a huge amount to the UK economy. If it

:26:37.:26:40.

is good news for the UK and India and good economic news that will

:26:41.:26:50.

benefit both countries. We have been beaten by the clock, we must leave

:26:51.:26:55.

it there. Perhaps when I'm famous and my diary is discovered, people

:26:56.:26:59.

will understand the torment of being a 13 and three quarter-year-old

:27:00.:27:05.

undiscovered intellectual. Adrian Mol, he's fictional -- Mole's

:27:06.:27:12.

fictional diary was discovered and made its author, Sue Townend a

:27:13.:27:20.

fortune. She passed away yesterday. The spirit of 1980s suburban England

:27:21.:27:24.

leapt from her page, captured with a sometimes touching but often spiky

:27:25.:27:29.

accuracy. This report has been compiled by Stephen Smith, aged 39

:27:30.:27:41.

plus VAT! Just my luck. Spots on my chin for the first day of the new

:27:42.:27:47.

year. He counts his spots in front of the mirror, he keeps a chart. A

:27:48.:27:52.

spot chart. Sort of a record! He measures his ears with his geometry

:27:53.:27:57.

set to see how far they are sticking out this week. Measures other things

:27:58.:28:01.

as well? He does, that are below the belt, yes. There is a new girl in

:28:02.:28:07.

our council tax she sits next to me in geography, she's all right. Her

:28:08.:28:12.

name is Pandora, but she likes to be called Bogs. Don't ask me why.

:28:13.:28:21.

Adrian Mole was the hugist thing when I was younger, and every single

:28:22.:28:26.

person I have ever met has read it as well, they have had all had the

:28:27.:28:30.

same reaction, and it is like oh my God I'm Adrian Mole, I think I'm

:28:31.:28:34.

better than anybody else here, I have a destiny outside this estate,

:28:35.:28:38.

I see through grown-ups and what they are. She was born in 1946, she

:28:39.:28:46.

left school at 15, she married, had three kid, she was authentic. There

:28:47.:28:48.

is something she said that always struck me, she said "I am

:28:49.:28:56.

working-class". No matter how many Prada handbags she had, she would

:28:57.:29:01.

never forget what it was to be poor. She was poor. "I was given a glass

:29:02.:29:10.

of Bulls Wood wine and felt a grown up, I talked like a consumate

:29:11.:29:16.

professional for an hour and then my mother talked about a sniff of a

:29:17.:29:21.

cork". For ages I thought I could only write a book about feminism if

:29:22.:29:25.

I sit at the writing desk assay all the right words and do all the

:29:26.:29:31.

research. When I realised hi to -- I had to tell the story from a dick

:29:32.:29:35.

ebb teenage girl that book wrote itself. And the voice of me is How

:29:36.:29:41.

To Be A woman, is just Adrian Mole with at this times. One day I was

:29:42.:29:44.

sitting with one of my daughters watching the tele, and there was

:29:45.:29:50.

Mole, and the news item was the new cabinet, Thatcher's new cabinet and

:29:51.:29:56.

there was John Major! I thought I laughed and said that is Mole. To me

:29:57.:30:00.

Adrian Mole ended up running the country. "I have lived under Tory

:30:01.:30:08.

rule for most of my life, as dawn breaks, I predict that new Labour

:30:09.:30:13.

will scrape in with a tiny majority, possibly three." The Cappuccino

:30:14.:30:24.

Years about Mole at 30-and-a-half, and new Labour have just come to the

:30:25.:30:33.

power. The Cappuccino Years a metaphor for new Labour, a lot of

:30:34.:30:37.

froth and not much coffee. She was also rather good at sex. I think

:30:38.:30:45.

Pandora is Helen of Troy who ended up as a Blair babe. Those touches

:30:46.:30:52.

are really very delicate, people will turn back and see a social

:30:53.:30:57.

historical register. Tony Blair is dedicated to the principle of

:30:58.:31:01.

women's rights and the representation of women in top jobs

:31:02.:31:05.

in and out of politics. You know perfectly well it will be jobs for

:31:06.:31:13.

the boys as usual. Not if I can help it Jeremy! That is the most sexually

:31:14.:31:18.

arousing thing I have seen on television, since Barbarap Windsor

:31:19.:31:24.

lost her bra in Carry On Camping. People talk about the classic novels

:31:25.:31:29.

of the 1980s and Martin Amis, money, and that is the classic British

:31:30.:31:33.

novel I think the classic novel was written by a single mum who didn't

:31:34.:31:37.

go to university, and it is Adrian Mole, everything you need to know

:31:38.:31:41.

about Britain at that time. Flannel we hope you don't have to change the

:31:42.:31:49.

plans for the weekend. Reports have come in that schools are ending the

:31:50.:31:54.

practice of letting the children take home the bear at the weekend,

:31:55.:31:59.

because of parents vying to show the bear the most sophisticated time. By

:32:00.:32:02.

chance it was Newsnight's chance to look after a bear at the weekend, we

:32:03.:32:07.

wouldn't dream of trying to outdo anyone, I bet your weekend isn't as

:32:08.:32:10.

good as this. Getting cold out there largely clear

:32:11.:32:53.

skies across England and

:32:54.:32:54.

In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines with Laura Kuenssberg.

Does the Pistorius trial make cameras more or less likely in UK courts? Plus, the latest from Ukraine, a preview of the Indian election and remembering Sue Townsend.


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