Browse content similar to 16/04/2014. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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First, the Ukrainian government issues an ultimatum to protesters, | :00:00. | :00:09. | |
then it tries to enforce it, without any great you can ises. Some of its | :00:10. | :00:14. | |
soldiers are disarmed and captured by the very people they were | :00:15. | :00:20. | |
supposed to be suppress. The Ukrainian soldiers have been put in | :00:21. | :00:23. | |
the buses behind us. They are being bussed away. They had their weapons | :00:24. | :00:28. | |
taken away from them. Is there a looming point at which this proxy | :00:29. | :00:33. | |
confrontation between Russia and the West turns into something worse? The | :00:34. | :00:40. | |
man cleared of murdering PC Keith Blakelock talks for the first time | :00:41. | :00:44. | |
about what happened that night. I was on the estate when PC Blakelock | :00:45. | :00:50. | |
died, but I wasn't near. I wasn't in no crowd chasing him. I wasn't in no | :00:51. | :00:55. | |
crowd urging anyone on to do anything to him. One woman and lots | :00:56. | :01:02. | |
of other people's dogs. How working for yourself is the new big thing in | :01:03. | :01:06. | |
employment. From the horrors of the civil war in | :01:07. | :01:18. | |
the Central African Republic, the story of a Christian and a Muslim | :01:19. | :01:22. | |
leader working together to prove it doesn't have to be an eye for an | :01:23. | :01:23. | |
eye. There are talks in Geneva tomorrow | :01:24. | :01:37. | |
which are supposed to help to defuse the crisis in Ukraine. The omens | :01:38. | :01:43. | |
aren't good. The government in Kiev hasn't been able to ex-cert its will | :01:44. | :01:47. | |
in eastern Ukraine and Russia is still talking about the danger of | :01:48. | :01:51. | |
civil war. NATO estimates there are about 40,000 Russian troops massed | :01:52. | :01:55. | |
on the border. The Secretary General says NATO forces on land, sea and | :01:56. | :02:01. | |
air will be deployed shortly. Yet, no western power has saided they | :02:02. | :02:06. | |
will intervene militarily. We're going to hear the broader | :02:07. | :02:13. | |
implications in a moment, first, Gabriel Gatehouse reports from the | :02:14. | :02:17. | |
scene. Today was the day Kiev sent in troops to try to get control back | :02:18. | :02:24. | |
of the east. It didn't go well. Crowds of angry locals, surrounded | :02:25. | :02:28. | |
the soldiers and their armoured vehicles. A warning shot, fired into | :02:29. | :02:35. | |
the air, failed to disperse the protesters, just outside the town of | :02:36. | :02:41. | |
Kramatorsk. A short while later some of those same armoured vehicles are | :02:42. | :02:48. | |
seen on a Ukrainian TV stations making much faster progress, but | :02:49. | :02:52. | |
flying a Russian flag. What happened? Were they captured or did | :02:53. | :02:58. | |
the soldiers defect? If soldiers are defecting, that could be a | :02:59. | :03:02. | |
game-changer. A massive boost for the separatist movement. If they | :03:03. | :03:07. | |
surrendered on the other hand, what does that say about Kiev's ability | :03:08. | :03:14. | |
to reassert its ability on the region using military means. We | :03:15. | :03:17. | |
found some of the missing armour vehicles, in the hands of | :03:18. | :03:22. | |
pro-Russian militia men. We were told not to film the government | :03:23. | :03:27. | |
soldiers from a Parachute Regiment. While a colleague tried to film, I | :03:28. | :03:32. | |
spoke to some of the government soldiers. They told me they had been | :03:33. | :03:37. | |
surrounded by local residents first, then they said armed men arrived, | :03:38. | :03:44. | |
taken over their vehicles. I heard a commander order them to hand over | :03:45. | :03:50. | |
their guns. The Ukrainian soldiers have been put on those buses behind | :03:51. | :03:54. | |
us. They are being bussed away. They had their weapons taken away from | :03:55. | :04:01. | |
them, effectively surrendered. The excited and sometimes angry crowd | :04:02. | :04:07. | |
believed something very different. TRANSLATION: They refused to shoot | :04:08. | :04:12. | |
on us. Some have come over to our side. They volunteered to join our | :04:13. | :04:18. | |
forces. The rest have been given food and money and are going home. | :04:19. | :04:24. | |
We found the remaining government forces still blockaded in by local | :04:25. | :04:28. | |
residents, enable to advance. The commanding officer told me his men | :04:29. | :04:34. | |
had been taken prisoner not defected. I asked him how he planned | :04:35. | :04:38. | |
to take control? TRANSLATION: What do you mean of | :04:39. | :04:43. | |
taking control? My understanding that the local population should be | :04:44. | :04:47. | |
able to live there in peace. Said he hoped he and his men would pull | :04:48. | :04:51. | |
back, withdrawing to their bases in central Ukraine. The locals are | :04:52. | :04:55. | |
telling us this morning when they heard about this main group of | :04:56. | :05:00. | |
armoured vehicles rumbling into town they came out immediately and | :05:01. | :05:04. | |
stopped them until their tracks. These soldiers clearly haven't been | :05:05. | :05:07. | |
captured. Safety in numbers, perhaps, but the commander told me | :05:08. | :05:18. | |
they are about to withdraw. In key v an inexperienced new government is | :05:19. | :05:21. | |
come under pressure to bring the east under control. It's not clear | :05:22. | :05:25. | |
what the Ukrainian military wanted to achieve today. What is clear, | :05:26. | :05:29. | |
this approach doesn't seem to be working. Was Gabriel Gatehouse in | :05:30. | :05:33. | |
eastern Ukraine. What shall we make of the separatist movement? Will it | :05:34. | :05:36. | |
be strong enough to break apart the country? Our diplomatic editor, mark | :05:37. | :05:42. | |
Urban, has been looking into the history of the eastern part of the | :05:43. | :05:45. | |
country, its divisions and the strength of pro-Russian public | :05:46. | :05:50. | |
opinion. Ukraine, even the name means "pord border land" a place | :05:51. | :05:54. | |
where the shifting realities of power has caused frontiers to | :05:55. | :06:01. | |
migrate. The 1922 solvient republic was smaller. It had many Russian | :06:02. | :06:05. | |
settlers in the east, which would grow into the industrial heartland, | :06:06. | :06:10. | |
home to coalmining and heavy industry, the powerhouse of Ukraine. | :06:11. | :06:15. | |
More Russians arrived after the famine engineered by Stalin in the | :06:16. | :06:21. | |
1930s left the east depopulated. After the war, he also shifted | :06:22. | :06:25. | |
borders westwards, adding land from Poland and other countries, | :06:26. | :06:30. | |
absorbing millions of new citizens with a very different perspective to | :06:31. | :06:36. | |
the Russians. In 1954, Crimea was added too. Crimea, more than 58% | :06:37. | :06:43. | |
Russian, is the only area where they are in the majority and that made | :06:44. | :06:49. | |
itses annexation by Russia simpler. In the east, home to 14 million | :06:50. | :06:54. | |
Ukrainians, even the Donetsk region doesn't have a Russian majority. It, | :06:55. | :07:08. | |
and the neighbour Lugansk have a 39% Russian. Even in the east only 24% | :07:09. | :07:14. | |
said yes in a recent survey. In western Ukraine. That was only 1%. | :07:15. | :07:21. | |
As for future ties, while most Ukrainians wanted closer ties with | :07:22. | :07:26. | |
the EU, it's different in the east. Only 22% said they would vote Yes to | :07:27. | :07:33. | |
that there. 62% said they wanted to join Mr Putin's Eurasian Customs | :07:34. | :07:42. | |
Union. It's the Gulf over trade, autonomy and the future that could | :07:43. | :07:49. | |
break Ukraine it Seve part. Olexander Scherba, | :07:50. | :07:52. | |
Ambassador-at-Large in the Ukrainian foreign Ministry. He joins us from | :07:53. | :07:58. | |
Kiev. These talks in Geneva tomorrow, what is your Foreign | :07:59. | :08:03. | |
Minister going to say at them? Well, we are going to say what we have | :08:04. | :08:07. | |
been saying for quite a while. We don't want to go at war with Russia. | :08:08. | :08:16. | |
We don't want war to be a part of our reality. But, also we will talk | :08:17. | :08:25. | |
to the West and we will look into the West's eyes and we will remind | :08:26. | :08:33. | |
them that in the last three months this nation was basically fighting | :08:34. | :08:41. | |
for democracy and freedom and people were dying for democracy and | :08:42. | :08:45. | |
freedom. Now it's the moment of truth for all three sides, for all | :08:46. | :08:50. | |
four sides that will be sitting around the table in Geneva. Russia, | :08:51. | :08:56. | |
Ukraine, America, and the European Union. You know that there is no | :08:57. | :09:04. | |
possibility of NATO forces militarily intervening in Ukraine, | :09:05. | :09:09. | |
don't you? We don't think that all the possibilities for the West are | :09:10. | :09:16. | |
exhausted. What do you think the West could do then further? First of | :09:17. | :09:25. | |
all, tomorrow there will be a chance for the goodwill for the goodwill to | :09:26. | :09:32. | |
play its part in this whole drama that is unfolding before our eyes | :09:33. | :09:38. | |
from Russia and from the West. If the goodwill doesn't take over, if | :09:39. | :09:48. | |
the aggression prevails, then of course the sanctions must be... Must | :09:49. | :09:55. | |
toughen up. You do accept, do you, that Russia is exploiting genuine | :09:56. | :10:00. | |
divisions in your country? Absolutely. Absolutely. Ukraine, | :10:01. | :10:04. | |
like many, many countries in the world, has many division lines, it's | :10:05. | :10:10. | |
not a reason to take this country apart or dismember them. You just | :10:11. | :10:15. | |
heard the statistics, the majority of all the regions that we are | :10:16. | :10:21. | |
talking about right now in Ukraine's east stands as supports staying | :10:22. | :10:26. | |
within the limits of Ukraine and being a part of Ukraine sovereign | :10:27. | :10:34. | |
state. Why has your government been so poor at trying to enforce its | :10:35. | :10:42. | |
will in eastern Ukraine? Because tomorrow is Geneva negotiations. | :10:43. | :10:50. | |
And, Russia... Russia's position was very clear. Anything, any bloodshed | :10:51. | :10:57. | |
on the ground would derail the negotiations. The soldiers, the | :10:58. | :11:01. | |
troops on the ground weren't given the orders, that is the one thing. | :11:02. | :11:06. | |
For the other thing, it's a very complicated issue for Ukrainians to | :11:07. | :11:16. | |
get ready, to shoot at own people. And, also to shoot at Russians. Even | :11:17. | :11:25. | |
if these own people, even if these foreigners, who came from the | :11:26. | :11:29. | |
neighbouring country, are really meaning harm for Ukraine, we have | :11:30. | :11:36. | |
been seeing this nation as a brotherly nation for two decades, | :11:37. | :11:44. | |
for hundreds of years. And, it real situation for many, many of us right | :11:45. | :11:48. | |
now. If you were so concerned, why did you send in the troops at all? | :11:49. | :11:54. | |
At every stage there seems to have been mishandled. You issue an | :11:55. | :11:58. | |
ultimatum much you don't keep to it. You let another day go by. You say | :11:59. | :12:02. | |
you are worried about how the Russians might react, but send in | :12:03. | :12:07. | |
troops. In the end the whole thing is a complete fee sass Coe? | :12:08. | :12:14. | |
There has been some miscalculation in some parts today. But he did not | :12:15. | :12:22. | |
show the other cities and there are other times where the situation has | :12:23. | :12:34. | |
calmed down today. Thanks to the presence of the army on the ground. | :12:35. | :12:39. | |
How do you think this crisis is going to end? I hope that common | :12:40. | :12:52. | |
sense will prevail. I hope that tomorrow the Russian delegation will | :12:53. | :12:59. | |
come with clear instructions to do their utmost to stop this madness. | :13:00. | :13:06. | |
It is madness going on in Ukraine between our nations that have been | :13:07. | :13:11. | |
together and have been living in peace with each other for a very | :13:12. | :13:16. | |
long time. Thank you for talking to us. There has been a frantic search | :13:17. | :13:24. | |
going on to find anyone who might have survived the sinking of a | :13:25. | :13:27. | |
passenger ferry off the coast of South Korea. A.D300 people, many | :13:28. | :13:32. | |
schoolchildren, are still unaccounted for and as time passes, | :13:33. | :13:37. | |
so does hope. The ferry which sank quickly, within a period of two | :13:38. | :13:43. | |
hours, sent its distress call at around 9am local time after it began | :13:44. | :13:48. | |
to take on water. What precisely calls to sink is not of lesser | :13:49. | :13:52. | |
importance than trying to save life or perhaps to recover bodies. | :13:53. | :13:57. | |
Joining me from Southampton is Captain John Noble, who was a marine | :13:58. | :14:03. | |
salvage expert. From what we know all the circumstances, what do you | :14:04. | :14:10. | |
think happened? It would appear from the passengers and evidence that the | :14:11. | :14:15. | |
ship struck something on the sea bed, either the sea bed or something | :14:16. | :14:22. | |
else, like a sunken container, and she was doing something in the order | :14:23. | :14:32. | |
of 18 knotts so as a result of any impact, there would be damage to the | :14:33. | :14:38. | |
ship's hull and there would be water ingress. The ship is said to have | :14:39. | :14:44. | |
then listed and then suddenly to have turned over. The initial | :14:45. | :14:51. | |
ingress would have been into the area adjacent to the impact took | :14:52. | :14:57. | |
place and much will depend on whether the watertight doors were | :14:58. | :15:01. | |
closed immediately or if they remained open. The initial list was | :15:02. | :15:08. | |
quite gradual but then suddenly, she went over and that would indicate | :15:09. | :15:17. | |
that water, possibly, entered the car deck, that they expands and of | :15:18. | :15:23. | |
water gets into that space, stability is severely affected. And | :15:24. | :15:28. | |
as a result, she would have capsized more quickly, as appears to have | :15:29. | :15:34. | |
been the case. Are there lessons from previous sinkings that perhaps | :15:35. | :15:40. | |
have not been properly learned? It is too early to say, until we find | :15:41. | :15:44. | |
out what did happen. If the doors were not closed immediately after | :15:45. | :15:51. | |
they felt trembling, that would be one mistake, if that is the right | :15:52. | :16:03. | |
word. But the lessons of the other cases probably do not apply because | :16:04. | :16:07. | |
advances have been made in the design and practice on this type of | :16:08. | :16:14. | |
ship, so it is too early to speculate about the exact cause. | :16:15. | :16:23. | |
There are some survivors who have talked about after the initial | :16:24. | :16:28. | |
impact, being told to stay inside. Is that good advice? It is probably | :16:29. | :16:33. | |
the standard procedure they had on-board for any incident but my | :16:34. | :16:40. | |
suspicion is the crew involved, who are exercising these orders, would | :16:41. | :16:45. | |
not have appreciated what was going on and there may have been a bright | :16:46. | :16:51. | |
line in giving occasion on-board, so the initial response to stay where | :16:52. | :16:56. | |
you are is probably right. But the seriousness of this event clearly | :16:57. | :17:00. | |
did not get through and as a result, that was the wrong thing to do. | :17:01. | :17:05. | |
Thank you very much for joining us. Thank you. It has not been British | :17:06. | :17:14. | |
justice's greatest hour. Almost 30 years after his killing, no-one has | :17:15. | :17:17. | |
been convicted of the murder of police constable Keith Blakelock. | :17:18. | :17:21. | |
The investigation into the horrific murder of one of their own turned | :17:22. | :17:24. | |
into a saga of police incompetence, the most recent chapter of which | :17:25. | :17:28. | |
resulted in the acquittal a week ago today of a man called Nicky Jacobs. | :17:29. | :17:33. | |
He has never spoken to the media about what happened the night PC | :17:34. | :17:36. | |
Blakelock was hacked to death, nor of what it's like to be arrested for | :17:37. | :17:43. | |
a crime like that. But he has now. He talked to Kurt Barling. On | :17:44. | :17:54. | |
October the 6th 1985, it is a long way of that those who were there | :17:55. | :17:58. | |
will never forget it. Hundreds of young people, black and white, | :17:59. | :18:03. | |
including 16-year-old Nicky Jacobs, clashing in long-running battles | :18:04. | :18:08. | |
which ended in the murder and tragedy. One week ago, Nicky Jacobs | :18:09. | :18:15. | |
was found not guilty of the murder of PC Keith Blakelock. It is a cloud | :18:16. | :18:20. | |
that has been hanging over him for 29 years. This is the first time he | :18:21. | :18:29. | |
has given an interview. I was throwing stones at police and to be | :18:30. | :18:35. | |
honest, I think, looking back, they expected that. Because they did not | :18:36. | :18:43. | |
show any respect. The death of Cynthia Jarrett had fuelled the | :18:44. | :18:48. | |
anger of those who chose to write and have certainly, their attitudes | :18:49. | :18:52. | |
once they heard a police officer had died. She died the day before or | :18:53. | :19:02. | |
something like that. So, for me, we would have had that feeling of | :19:03. | :19:07. | |
tit-for-tat. Was there any moment when you thought, I have missed the | :19:08. | :19:18. | |
main event? It did? Mind. Because, like I said, at that time, what | :19:19. | :19:27. | |
officers had done to the black community, it was celebration times. | :19:28. | :19:35. | |
His lawyers decided he should not give evidence at the Old Bailey. He | :19:36. | :19:39. | |
says if he had, he would have said he was nowhere near where PC Keith | :19:40. | :19:43. | |
Blakelock was murdered and he was too busy elsewhere throwing stones | :19:44. | :19:48. | |
and Molotov cocktails, for which she was sent to prison for eight years | :19:49. | :19:54. | |
in 1986. I was on the estate when PC Keith Blakelock died but I was not | :19:55. | :20:01. | |
in that crowd. Chasing him, I was not in the crowd urging anyone to do | :20:02. | :20:11. | |
anything to him. I am so glad, they tried to put me there but I was not | :20:12. | :20:18. | |
there. Like I said, I will sleep at night knowing I am not guilty. What | :20:19. | :20:22. | |
I am saying is I did not kill PC Keith Blakelock. Where were you when | :20:23. | :20:28. | |
that happened? I was on the estate, running around, like other kids. We | :20:29. | :20:33. | |
know the murder took place and you were not there? I was nowhere near. | :20:34. | :20:42. | |
Whoever said that they saw me there, they are wicked. At his trial, Nicky | :20:43. | :20:50. | |
Jacobs and the family of PC Keith Blakelock listened to evidence from | :20:51. | :20:53. | |
alleged eyewitnesses to the murder who put themselves and Nicky Jacobs | :20:54. | :21:01. | |
at the scene. The jury also decided the evidence was unreliable. Nicky | :21:02. | :21:07. | |
Jacobs says he cannot understand why those who admitted to kicking PC | :21:08. | :21:10. | |
Keith Blakelock were allowed to give evidence against him. Even the | :21:11. | :21:16. | |
witnesses, I am not mad at them, I am not. I mean... I have always | :21:17. | :21:28. | |
grown up in a life, I would not say lifestyle, but then alive whether or | :21:29. | :21:33. | |
certain things you do not do but on top of that, to just lie, to not | :21:34. | :21:42. | |
care, no one knows his family, because these guys are the only | :21:43. | :21:45. | |
people who said they took part in the murder, either with a weapon or | :21:46. | :21:52. | |
not, and they got rewarded. I want a mansion, I want a novella, a sexy | :21:53. | :21:56. | |
wife who can kick me dinner. She would have to be romantic, faithful, | :21:57. | :22:02. | |
give me a couple of youths, son and daughter, send them to school... One | :22:03. | :22:07. | |
of the key planks of the prosecution was a so-called poll in which Nicky | :22:08. | :22:13. | |
Jacobs, aged 18, described in detail the murder of PC Keith Blakelock. It | :22:14. | :22:17. | |
was presented as a confession. Nicky Jacobs says it reflects the feelings | :22:18. | :22:22. | |
of a young man who had lost hope in prison but not yet in life. This is | :22:23. | :22:28. | |
about a 16-year-old boy. I am 45 years old. Do you know what I mean? | :22:29. | :22:40. | |
All of these feelings, this porn, -- poem. There were particular areas | :22:41. | :22:47. | |
the prosecution focused on, chopping him on the fingers and the shoulder | :22:48. | :22:51. | |
and the chest? Chopping him all over and he is killed? What were you | :22:52. | :22:55. | |
thinking, because the prosecution said, it was an admission? Yes. Yes. | :22:56. | :23:06. | |
I mean, if you look and you can see those lyrics, it never says that I, | :23:07. | :23:19. | |
Nicky Jacobs, or me, it is always way. Despite his anger at the | :23:20. | :23:26. | |
decision to prosecute him with a unreliable witnesses and | :23:27. | :23:28. | |
contradictory evidence, Nicky Jacobs feels that as much as him, the | :23:29. | :23:32. | |
family of PC Keith Blakelock were not well served by his trial. If | :23:33. | :23:38. | |
that was one of my family members, I would want justice. I would be | :23:39. | :23:43. | |
outside the courts, petitions, whatever. I would want that. But at | :23:44. | :23:49. | |
the same time, if I had to sit down in the court for six weeks and here | :23:50. | :23:55. | |
that so-called justice about somebody else, then I would be | :23:56. | :24:01. | |
angry. And disappointed at the system. And the establishment, that | :24:02. | :24:07. | |
my husband died for. Nicky Jacobs has been found not guilty and his | :24:08. | :24:11. | |
claims of innocence justified by the verdict. It will take longer to | :24:12. | :24:16. | |
overcome the trauma of being on trial for a wicked crime with the | :24:17. | :24:28. | |
killer is eluding justice. -- killers. What a happy little | :24:29. | :24:32. | |
Chancellor George Osborne must be. Yesterday it was the news that | :24:33. | :24:43. | |
inflation was down. Today, the Office for National Statistics | :24:44. | :24:46. | |
disclosed that unemployment is at 6.9% - its lowest for five years. It | :24:47. | :24:50. | |
is therefore below the point at which the Bank of England used to | :24:51. | :24:53. | |
say it would consider raising interest rates. But within that | :24:54. | :24:55. | |
headline figure is something particularly interesting. The number | :24:56. | :24:58. | |
of people working for someone else went up 3%. But the number of people | :24:59. | :25:01. | |
working for themselves, the self-employed, rose by 9%. Has | :25:02. | :25:04. | |
entrepreneurship taken off or is there another reason? Jim Reed | :25:05. | :25:10. | |
reports. The self-made trader might feel it something straight out of | :25:11. | :25:14. | |
the 1980s but 30 years on, figures and show it as a self-employed, | :25:15. | :25:18. | |
workers like Mary, who are driving the latest recovery in the labour | :25:19. | :25:25. | |
market. The 240,000 new jobs created in the three months, all was two | :25:26. | :25:29. | |
thirds went to workers registered as self-employed. Merely left and | :25:30. | :25:34. | |
administration job at Heathrow to start all over again at the age of | :25:35. | :25:39. | |
53. Her dog sitting business has been going through the recession and | :25:40. | :25:41. | |
has taken on its first proper employee. Wasn't the right decision? | :25:42. | :25:48. | |
The best decision I ever made. I would say to anybody that was | :25:49. | :25:55. | |
looking at this, yes, go for it. Definitely. And it is older workers | :25:56. | :26:02. | |
who have made the bulk of the increase in self-employment since | :26:03. | :26:07. | |
the recession - four out of five of those new jobs have been taken up by | :26:08. | :26:11. | |
somebody over 50. I think because I did feel fairly financially secure, | :26:12. | :26:19. | |
my mortgage was paid, so it did feel like the right time for me to do | :26:20. | :26:24. | |
that so I did still have ten years ahead of me to be able to make a | :26:25. | :26:31. | |
success out of something. Overall, today's figures were the strongest | :26:32. | :26:35. | |
in five years. The number of people out of work fell by 77,000 in three | :26:36. | :26:41. | |
months. 6.9%, the unemployment rate is below the level the Bank of | :26:42. | :26:45. | |
England once said could trigger a rise in rates. Plenty for the | :26:46. | :26:50. | |
Treasury to crow about. Self-employment is an important part | :26:51. | :26:54. | |
of the economy but we are also seeing increasing numbers of | :26:55. | :26:57. | |
permanent jobs, part-time employment and a varied labour market. One of | :26:58. | :27:02. | |
the strengths of the UK economy and by helping build the -- businesses | :27:03. | :27:07. | |
to create jobs, we are seeing more people work in this country than | :27:08. | :27:12. | |
ever before. In previous recoveries, job growth has been led by big | :27:13. | :27:15. | |
private-sector firms and the public sector. This time, that is not | :27:16. | :27:19. | |
happening to the same extent. Instead, more growth appears to be | :27:20. | :27:24. | |
coming from that rise in self-employment and short-term | :27:25. | :27:29. | |
temporary contracts. Critics say that often means greater job | :27:30. | :27:34. | |
insecurity and less pay. Research today shows that 44% of the rise in | :27:35. | :27:38. | |
self-employment has come in lower skilled jobs like cleaning and | :27:39. | :27:45. | |
catering. 28% say that given the choice, they would prefer to be | :27:46. | :27:51. | |
full-time employees. Cathy is returning to rework is a landscape | :27:52. | :27:55. | |
gardener after leaving her job in publishing at the start of the | :27:56. | :27:58. | |
recession. She has been registered as self-employed, juggling studies | :27:59. | :28:02. | |
with temporary contracts and freelance work. There are lots of | :28:03. | :28:07. | |
low paid part-time zero hours contract work out their but how can | :28:08. | :28:14. | |
you plan when you don't get paid and the children are sick? For me, the | :28:15. | :28:20. | |
regularity of income and working hours and all of the other things | :28:21. | :28:26. | |
are going with employment and offer more of what I am looking for these | :28:27. | :28:32. | |
days. As the economy grows, so the idea is that people are Cathy will | :28:33. | :28:37. | |
be able to get off those freelance contracts and join full-time work. | :28:38. | :28:40. | |
That will decide whether the self-employment boom is a temporary | :28:41. | :28:46. | |
lip to get us through deep recession or a longer term change to the way | :28:47. | :28:54. | |
we work in this country. Nicola Smith is Head of Economic and Social | :28:55. | :29:01. | |
Affairs at TUC. Allister Heath is editor of City AM. They join me now. | :29:02. | :29:06. | |
Why is this happening? This is a real shift, what we have seen | :29:07. | :29:12. | |
Staines 2010 is 40% of net jobs growth has been in self-employment | :29:13. | :29:16. | |
and we have seen trends that are driving that change. That represents | :29:17. | :29:22. | |
2010. We have find that the number of people starting their own | :29:23. | :29:26. | |
business has gone down on the number who say they are contracting and | :29:27. | :29:30. | |
freelancing is what is driving that increase going up. But why? I think | :29:31. | :29:36. | |
it is happening because the labour market is still weak, were still | :29:37. | :29:40. | |
recovering. That tells us something. Why? | :29:41. | :29:47. | |
In the first phase because of the economic collapse, people had no | :29:48. | :29:50. | |
choice. The choice was, either you are out of work, you are not earning | :29:51. | :29:54. | |
anything, or you become a consultant and go freelance. The second phase | :29:55. | :29:58. | |
is different. That is what we are seeing at the moment. A lot of | :29:59. | :30:02. | |
people are choosing to be self employed at the moment. In some | :30:03. | :30:06. | |
cases older people returning to work and other people going off on their | :30:07. | :30:11. | |
own, start up their own business and be independent. There is a cultural | :30:12. | :30:14. | |
change. The workforce is changing in ways that are quite positive. OK. We | :30:15. | :30:19. | |
will come to whether they are positive or negative in a moment or | :30:20. | :30:22. | |
two. It tells us something about the nature of this recession, doesn't, | :30:23. | :30:26. | |
it the emergence from recession that the growth... The really notable | :30:27. | :30:32. | |
growth is in self employment? I think it's telling us there is still | :30:33. | :30:36. | |
a lot of weakness in the jobs market. There is still a lot of | :30:37. | :30:41. | |
ground to make up. When we look at the detail self employed figures, | :30:42. | :30:45. | |
you reported on some in your report, there since 2008, I think, the | :30:46. | :30:48. | |
number of people who say they are self employed working in social care | :30:49. | :30:53. | |
has gone up by 29%. The number of people who say they are self | :30:54. | :30:57. | |
employed working in retail has gone up. That says to me there is a lot | :30:58. | :31:01. | |
more insecure, low paid jobs in social care that are of a poorer | :31:02. | :31:06. | |
quality than we heard before. More people are in work, that work is | :31:07. | :31:10. | |
poorly paid and insecure. This takes us into the field that Alastair was | :31:11. | :31:15. | |
just raising. Is it a good thing or bad thing? Why do you think it's a | :31:16. | :31:19. | |
good thing? Two things. First of all, whether the recession people | :31:20. | :31:22. | |
have no choice, I would rather as many as possible become self | :31:23. | :31:27. | |
employed rather than become totally excluded from the labour market. In | :31:28. | :31:35. | |
past recessions unemployment went up before because people didn't have | :31:36. | :31:37. | |
the ability to be self employed. People have become more self | :31:38. | :31:41. | |
reliant. It's good people want to work for themselves. Good that fewer | :31:42. | :31:45. | |
people want to work for large companies. Why? It's more exciting. | :31:46. | :31:50. | |
It's more creative and liberating. The more you see successful people | :31:51. | :31:55. | |
going it alone and choosing to be self employed the better. It creates | :31:56. | :31:59. | |
a die Nattic society. The a society where people will innovate and | :32:00. | :32:02. | |
create new companies, jabs for others and so on. I'm quite behind | :32:03. | :32:08. | |
that - It sounds a different view from the one you were outlining? I'm | :32:09. | :32:12. | |
in favour of people starting their businesses and taking new people on. | :32:13. | :32:15. | |
As I said earlier, we don't think the data show that is is what is | :32:16. | :32:19. | |
happening. Our worry is, as we recover from recession, we see | :32:20. | :32:26. | |
strong jobs growth, we aren't seeing job growth where wages are strong | :32:27. | :32:32. | |
and we will get strength for the future. We see large numbers of jobs | :32:33. | :32:38. | |
growing in low paid sectors and increasing the extent to which the | :32:39. | :32:42. | |
jobs are insecure and poorly trained. Workers classify them as | :32:43. | :32:49. | |
being on a self employed contract but you are delivering packages, or | :32:50. | :32:55. | |
you are a social careworker but by making themselves self employed they | :32:56. | :33:02. | |
avoid employment rights. If that was a permanent part of our economy | :33:03. | :33:06. | |
would be negative. How much is to do with the benefit situation? I'm not | :33:07. | :33:09. | |
sure there is a strong link with the benefit situation in particular. I | :33:10. | :33:12. | |
think people who are on benefits desperately want to move into work. | :33:13. | :33:19. | |
The big growth is in what is rather confusingly called "elementary | :33:20. | :33:23. | |
employment" low skilled jobs, as you say? These jobs need to exist. A lot | :33:24. | :33:27. | |
of people with low skills, great they are working. I think this is a | :33:28. | :33:32. | |
really positive set of numbers. Huge increase in employment. Longest | :33:33. | :33:38. | |
increase since 1989 since the Lawson boom. Half of the jobs over the past | :33:39. | :33:43. | |
year are employee jobs, the other half are self employed. A lot of the | :33:44. | :33:47. | |
jobs are low skilled. It's great these people are finding work. Good | :33:48. | :33:54. | |
thing more people have jobs. A growth in self employment has | :33:55. | :33:57. | |
cultural consequences too for the nation, doesn't it? You hinted at | :33:58. | :34:02. | |
that? I like the cultural consequences. Independence and the | :34:03. | :34:05. | |
fact people are, woing in smaller units is a good thing. You call it | :34:06. | :34:10. | |
independence, others would call it insecurity. Poor terms and | :34:11. | :34:14. | |
conditions, depressed incomes, wider trend towards those on lower and | :34:15. | :34:18. | |
middle incomes getting a smaller share of the nation's incomes. The | :34:19. | :34:23. | |
latest data, which aren't particularly up-to-date, a Hansard | :34:24. | :34:27. | |
reference shows the average income is ?10,000 a year. We know people | :34:28. | :34:31. | |
who are self employed, adown group of them are likely to be working at | :34:32. | :34:37. | |
below minimum wage earnings. That isn't good for our jobs market. By | :34:38. | :34:43. | |
definition self employed people may work fewer hours than full-time | :34:44. | :34:47. | |
people their income may be lower. May work more. We used to be in a | :34:48. | :34:51. | |
social where people went to work for a big company, that is was their | :34:52. | :34:56. | |
dream, 9-5 jobs, 40 years. That is over. That can be a liberating | :34:57. | :34:59. | |
development. In some case it is's insecurity. In some cases people | :35:00. | :35:04. | |
aren't choosing to be self employed. 27% of the people who became self | :35:05. | :35:08. | |
employed over the past five or six years say that they didn't choose to | :35:09. | :35:12. | |
be self employed. That is half a million people though. It's a very | :35:13. | :35:18. | |
large number of people. Given the horrendous recession and the | :35:19. | :35:21. | |
collapse in the economic output, given what happened that is a small | :35:22. | :35:24. | |
number. That is positive. You have to look in the context of which | :35:25. | :35:28. | |
people are making a choice. It's good they are in a job rather than | :35:29. | :35:33. | |
no job. More people have remained in work during this recession. Terms | :35:34. | :35:38. | |
and conditions of pay have been severely depressed in away that is | :35:39. | :35:41. | |
historically unprecedented. We can't say that is good for our economy or | :35:42. | :35:44. | |
wages going forward. Thank you very much. The United Nations and various | :35:45. | :35:48. | |
aid agencies launched an appeal for the best part of ?300 million to | :35:49. | :35:55. | |
help refugees from the fighting in the Central African Republic. The | :35:56. | :35:58. | |
country has been tipped into chaos since a mainly Muslim rebel | :35:59. | :36:03. | |
coalition seized power a year ago, started abusing the Christian | :36:04. | :36:06. | |
population and set off waves of revenge attacks, which have driven | :36:07. | :36:11. | |
great numbers of Muslims out of the country. Terrible conflict has | :36:12. | :36:16. | |
brought forth two remarkable peacemakers. Tim Whewell has been on | :36:17. | :36:23. | |
the road with them in the Central African Republic. It was always dirt | :36:24. | :36:26. | |
poor, perhaps the least valued of all of France's African possessions. | :36:27. | :36:31. | |
The French left a taste for combat owe in the capital, but not much | :36:32. | :36:37. | |
else. Now, a country that has always been misruled is in ruins. The only | :36:38. | :36:42. | |
authority, a few thousand foreign peacekeepers. In the last few | :36:43. | :36:50. | |
months, it's been violent cleansed of Muslims. Once they were 15% of | :36:51. | :36:53. | |
the population. Now, their homes are burned, thousands have been killed, | :36:54. | :36:57. | |
most of the rest have fled abroad. You might think it's all about | :36:58. | :37:02. | |
religion, but two friends, one Christian, one Muslim, are setting | :37:03. | :37:07. | |
out on a journey to try to prove it's not. They are the top Christian | :37:08. | :37:14. | |
and Muslim in the country. An Archbishop and the chief Imam. They | :37:15. | :37:17. | |
go everywhere together. Now, they are heading off on an | :37:18. | :37:29. | |
arduous journey into the interior of the country to talk to the killers. | :37:30. | :37:49. | |
Even for men of God, it won't be easy. Over the last two months, two | :37:50. | :37:56. | |
murderous militias have rampaged down this road, burning, looting, | :37:57. | :38:07. | |
killing, often at random. First, the mainly Muslim and Christian, their | :38:08. | :38:11. | |
crimes provoked the cycle of revenge that is now destroying this country. | :38:12. | :38:16. | |
The rebels are now defeated and confined to barracks in many places. | :38:17. | :38:20. | |
They seized power a year ago, committing many atrocities. To the | :38:21. | :38:28. | |
Imam's sorrow, some Muslim civilians took part. | :38:29. | :38:50. | |
The anti--Balaca. Today, of course, they are just fooling around. But | :38:51. | :39:09. | |
they kill Muslims for real, even though they call it self defence | :39:10. | :39:11. | |
against foreigners. This is the third village we passed | :39:12. | :39:58. | |
on a fairly short stretch of road, which has been almost completely | :39:59. | :40:02. | |
burnt. The countryside around here, for miles and miles, is being | :40:03. | :40:09. | |
completely emptied of Muslims. Bravely, the Imams got out to try to | :40:10. | :40:16. | |
persuade anti--Balaka fighters to go home. It's a tense moment. The | :40:17. | :40:22. | |
informal toll gate they have erected here is a money-spinner. | :40:23. | :40:37. | |
With militia ruling the roads, it's anarchy. Further on, thousands of | :40:38. | :40:47. | |
Christians are still sheltering around the cathedral. They fled the | :40:48. | :40:57. | |
Seleka months ago. This woman told them how the Muslim rebels killed | :40:58. | :41:00. | |
her son. She gets a blessing, but there is | :41:01. | :41:33. | |
little else the Archbishop can do for he. She takes us to see why. The | :41:34. | :41:41. | |
Seleka stripped her home of everything. It's the first time | :41:42. | :41:45. | |
she's been back. Behind, what is left of her son's | :41:46. | :41:56. | |
house. It's too much for her grandson, | :41:57. | :42:24. | |
Franklin. Not far away, the Archbishop and the Imam are trying | :42:25. | :42:28. | |
to persuade the few remaining local Muslims to stay. If they flee, like | :42:29. | :42:32. | |
most of the others, there will be no hope of rebuilding a mixed society | :42:33. | :42:36. | |
here. But they are met with a wall of distrust. | :42:37. | :42:53. | |
Back on the road, the in in day, the Archbishop refuses to be down cast. | :42:54. | :43:01. | |
A few bumps can't shake their sense of purpose. | :43:02. | :43:09. | |
Does the chief Imam ever worry he might be the last Imam, perhaps the | :43:10. | :43:13. | |
last Muslim in the country? In the market at the next stop, I | :43:14. | :43:28. | |
find one of the only two Muslims left in a town which had thousands. | :43:29. | :43:34. | |
This butcher was allowed to stay bus of his skills. Muslims dominated the | :43:35. | :43:42. | |
meat trade. It He is afraid to tell me much. -- he is afraid to tell me | :43:43. | :43:49. | |
much. His wife will never forget the day | :43:50. | :43:56. | |
when all the other Muslims fled for their lives. | :43:57. | :44:19. | |
It's been a journey when the two friends' pleas for reconciliation | :44:20. | :44:30. | |
has fallen on stoney ground, but they are not giving up. | :44:31. | :44:47. | |
They are heading back to the capital, then abroad, to urge | :44:48. | :44:54. | |
western leaders to send more peacekeepers before it's too late. | :44:55. | :45:02. | |
Perhaps it already is. Back in Bangui I find the tail end of the | :45:03. | :45:08. | |
exodus. Some of the capital's last Muslims leaving the country in any | :45:09. | :45:12. | |
vehicles they can find. Ethnic cleansing is almost complete. Still, | :45:13. | :45:21. | |
the world looks the other way. That was Tim Whewell aring l reporting. | :45:22. | :45:31. | |
Now the front pages: The Financial Times: Apparently, Scots are being | :45:32. | :45:42. | |
misled by some of the claims for the campaign for Yes for independence, | :45:43. | :45:46. | |
according to the Daily Telegraph. The Times has further news that the | :45:47. | :45:53. | |
trouble within UKIP about their funding. That's about enough for | :45:54. | :46:00. | |
tonight I think. The World Irish Dancing Championships are being held | :46:01. | :46:02. | |
in London this week for the first time in their 44 year history. Along | :46:03. | :46:08. | |
with the glory, this is the sort of trophy that successful competitors | :46:09. | :46:14. | |
can expect to receive. We have two World Champions, in their age group, | :46:15. | :46:22. | |
with us tonight, Gerard Byne and Julia O'rubg. He's from Donny gall, | :46:23. | :46:26. | |
she's from New York, both of them know a thing or two about a reel. | :46:27. | :46:29. | |
Good night. -- O' -Rourke. Brightness to southern and eastern | :46:30. | :48:06. | |
areas, cloudier further north, breezy with showery rain. Not a lot | :48:07. | :48:08. | |
of | :48:09. | :48:09. |