20/05/2014 Newsnight

A British court convicts a British citizen for travelling to fight in

the Syrian civil war. Why should joining a foreign war be a criminal

offence in THIS country? The former Italian Prime Minister

explains the finer points of diplomacy. Do you have a particular

problem with Angela Merkel? Is it true you called her a unBLEEPable

lard-arse? And how UKIP appeals not just to

people who'd otherwise be Tories, but to deep into the Labour

heartlands. If I'm honest, I never used to be racist, never. But this

government, in the things it's doing, is making me racist. How

traditional loyalties are fading as Labour becomes a party dominated by

career politicians. The first man to be convicted under

new terrorism laws was found guilty today. Mashudur Choudhury, a

would-be jihadi from Portsmouth, had travelled to Syria and made the

mistake later of returning to this country where he was picked up and

charged with preparing for acts of terrorism. Choudhury was a liar and

a fantasist, but the court judged him to be serious about his desire

to join what he believed to be a holy war.

Today's conviction raises the question: Why are hundreds of Brit

leading cities like Portsmouth to fight in Syria? For some there are

echoes of the Spanish Civil War, just fight against a brutal

dictator. Mashudur Choudhury, convicted today,

was one of the group of at least five young men from the city who

chose to leave safe lives to fight. Around 400 from the UK have joined

the caravan to Syria. I feel sorry about these young people because

they have been brainwashed. Why do they go? Some, it is holy war. This

Tory has a direct connection with an exclusive six months ago when I

spoke to another young man from Portsmouth, when he was in Syria,

close to the front line. He admitted to finding with -- fighting with

Isis. He was in contact with all the young men from Portsmouth. He died

two weeks after our interview. Here he is, spreading the word of Islam

in his hometown. Born in Britain, he gave me a fascinating insight into

the new world of jihad. This religious certainty plays into

support for jihad. Newsnight consulted a leading scholar about

this. He was one of the first to speak out against President Assad.

They don't want an Islamic state, they want an Al-Qaeda state. We

don't have any extremists, they want their own version, their own

understanding of Islam, which they derive from the Internet! At the

start of the conflict, some say there were parallels with the

Spanish Civil War, which could be termed the jihad against brutal

oppressor. But many are not on the right path. This is what you are

saying is alarming. Indeed, it is. Changing the nature of the

fighting, from fighting for freedom and dignity, from protecting their

honour, their lives, to fighting to eradicate certain sect or a certain

ethnicity, this is, I believe, very serious and dangerous. Our job is to

highlight the importance of coexistence. Security sources say

the Spanish Civil War and is broken. There is lethal infighting

and the aim is as much about Al-Qaeda's desire to create original

state and toppling Assad. It seems the jury considered that was indeed

Mashudur Choudhury's true motivation.

Well I'm joined by Abdullah Anas - a veteran of the Afghan-Soviet war,

who used to count Osama bin Laden as his friend, but distanced himself

from Al-Qaeda completely. And also Asim Qureshi from the campaign group

CAGE which works on behalf of those accused of terrorist offences, and

Raffaello Pantucci from the Royal United Services Institute. Let's

turn to this comparison that was raised at the end of that report.

People from this country went and fought in the Spanish 44 and many

people felt rather fondly and proudly towards them. -- Spanish

Civil War. People have gone off and fought with the Israeli defence

forces. In what respect is this particular offence of going to Syria

and acute missa which deserves being sent to jail for? The difference is

the battlefield you're going to participate in and the groups you

are going to fight alongside. When you are looking like groups like

ISIS, or the Al-Qaeda connected groups on the ground, they have

espoused a desire to attack the West. So you are not going to join a

group that is just participating in a civil war against regime, they are

group that has history on trying to attack the West. So had these young

men gone to fight for Assad, that would have been all right? That is a

fair point, and the debate there is I think the law as it stands says it

is not permissible to go and that is not permissible to go and put a

spate infighting in this Civil War. This particular Civil War? In terms

of legislation are people going to join the Assad side, I don't think

that has happened so we don't have... But we don't know, of

course. We don't know. Is this young men

course. We don't know. Is this young others? I don't think so. I

course. We don't know. Is this young there is a certain feeling among

young Muslim men in the there is a certain feeling among

they want to go out and help. Some of them are attracted to groups like

ISIS, and despite warnings that are given by different community leaders

across the country, they are going out there to join them. But I think

the vast majority, there isn't a single voice here in the UK that is

encouraging them to go out there. But it is, though, is many of them

are looking at the conflict and they have a desire to assist. You have to

separate the ethics from the pragmatism of the situation. Most of

the Muslims in the UK will say there is nothing unethical about wanting

to go out and defend somebody or defend the people that are being

killed, massacres, but what we are saying is that, if that's the most

pragmatic thing to do? Do you try to prevent them, discourage them? I

don't have access to prevent them, discourage them? I

community in that way. You are originally Algerian and you fought

in Afghanistan. What was it that drew you to Afghanistan from a long

distance away? I think what drew me to Afghanistan will continue drawing

the new generations hereafter. When you have that intention of being

Shaheed, or being a major hit, this will never finish, this didn't start

with me in 1983, and will never stop with my son. So we're not coming

here to comment about the intentions. The intentions, I think

it is a positive intention. You see your brother or women or children

being killed in Syria or in Afghanistan, so your religion, your

face, forces you to be positive and to be positive here, to help. --

your faith. So we're not here to comment about the intention, we are

here, I am here, to give my opinion about the actions. So the action, I

think, is not a matter of saying how Al or a RAM. It is deeper than that.

I don't know if I can explain it, it is whether going to Syria now in the

circumstances is harmful or beneficial. What is your view on

that? It's harmful. As a form in which a Dean, -- mujahedin, as we

started this idea. What is the difference? You felt it was

legitimate, it was all right, to go to Afghanistan to fight, but you

think it is a bad idea to go to Syria to fight, why? The intention

is still not bad. The circumstances now, it's not the same

circumstances. Why? In my opinion, I am sure there is no time to explain

it deeply now, that is why maybe I wrote my biography, in order to

answer all these questions and confusion in the mind. I have to

find a good publisher now! But what the difference between Syria and

Afghanistan? I will send children to Syria -- never send boys to fight in

Syria. But there are many obstacles there. If you had heard me with the

people we followed three days ago, after the split happened with

Al-Qaeda, they announced that they had an agreement with the Iranians

intelligence not to have any operation in Iran. So this makes me

more careful to advise my son or two any young Muslim, to go there,

because if you are not in between the hands of the intelligence, you

are in the hands... That is why the attention is fine, the action is

harmful -- the intention is fine. The concern of government in framing

the law is the protection of its own citizens, of the country. Is there

concrete evidence that young men going off to take part in this sort

of war , the Syrian Civil War, possibly, actually are a risk to

this country? I would say look at history, and if we look at every

battlefield that has shaped like this, where you have groups on the

ground that spies a jihadi rhetoric, they have all produced some sort of

terrorist threat back home in the West. -- espoused. But they don't

support that. If you look at all the actual plot that took place in the

UK, where there was a plot in the centre, 66 individuals involved,

crossed 12 different plots, and in that circumstance, the one thing we

saw was that hardly any of them had had training in a conflict zone

previously, to then deciding to do this action. A lot of them went

abroad... But you had Abdullah came back... You look at Somalia... This

is the point I'm trying to make. But they go abroad because of their

foreign policy grievance. In all of those cases, it is not that they had

gone to a conflict zone and then, because of that, had established a

certain mentality. They became disenfranchised from the society,

then they went abroad and then they came back. In every single one of

those cases... But the net result is they come back to try and launch an

attack. When we look at Syria, it would be very surprising... If you

look at the proportion that comeback in turn up as terrorists, in the

West, they do produce... But not everyone who's going out to Syria

will come back as a terrorist threat. Amongst that number, it is

likely, and we are already seeing some evidence of plotting. The point

is purely about the numbers, which is that we don't see any of the same

numbers of people going off to Iraq and Afghanistan post-9/11 we do with

Syria. The reason we do with Syria is because Muslims in the UK, like

with Libya, which was completely permissible, according to this

government, they were going there for that purpose, they are going

there because they don't feel any conflict between being British and

wanting to go out and fight. There are problems with groups like ISIS,

but these people are going up there with good intentions, and what we

need to do is to help them. They are participating a battle that is

confusing. It is shocking you see them going to fight, they might go

with intentions to fight for the regime or against it. But people are

dying out there. Thanks very much. Amme, we're going to explore why so

many people seem to be preparing to vote for UKIP in the elections laetr

this week. But this disenchantment with regular politicians is spread

right across Europe, as more and more people become fed up with the

EU. In Italy, for example, the governing party is being pressed by

a party led by Beppe Grillo, a comedian, who rejects all EU budget

rules and promises a referendum on whether his country should stay in

the euro. The party of Silvio Berlusconi, who so recently was

Prime Minister, is running third. Of course, he has had other things to

think about - charges of fraud, of sex with underage prostitutes, and

so on. I went to see him at his villa outside Milan. This interview

contains strong language. There will never be a United States of Europe?

TRANSLATION: No, that was a dream that will never come true. Today's

EU is different from the dreams of its founding fathers. The EU has a

very invalid and Steve can policy. And a very imbalanced tax policy. --

imbalanced foreign policy. When we had a meeting with the heads of

state, I propose to have just one president. I suggested Tony Blair.

He was charismatic. George Bush, a good friend of mine. He rang me up.

He asked me who to speak to in order to understand the European position

in Iraq. I told him to try to contact everybody. I am very

concerned, very concerned about what the European Union is doing and its

behaviour towards the Russian Federation with this absurd

sanctions that the UN and USA are imposing on people they think are

close to Vladimir Putin. They are putting distance between our

countries, and this could mean that Russia returns to the isolation of

the Cold War. The euro was always a political project. In your

judgement, is Europe growing apart, or is it continuing to grow closer?

We need to radically change the situation in Europe. For example,

the fact that the UK is not in the Eurozone and we are is a disaster.

We need radical changes, otherwise the economic situation will force us

and other European countries to abandon the euro and go back to

national currencies. The European Central Bank is supposed to fight

inflation. It needs to be a central bank, like the Federal Reserve, like

the Bank of England, the bank of Japan. What does it need to do?

First, it needs to guarantee the debt of the euro countries and

secondly to print money when needed for those countries who cannot pay

their debts. Have you got a particular problem

with Angela Merkel? Did you call her an unfuckable lardarse? No I have

never had any problems with Angela Merkel. In 20 years of politics, I

have never insulted anyone. This has been made up by somebody who wanted

to turn Angela against me. I was not an easy person to deal with and I

was quite tough. I had the courage to propose some of the proposals

made by Angela Merkel and Nicolas Sarkozy. The time you jumped out

from behind a monument and went cuckoo, to Angela Merkel, that was a

joke? She enjoyed it. I explained why I did the cuckoo thing. Days

earlier I went to Saint Petersburg to visit Putin. Putin, he hid behind

the pillar and went, cuckoo, to me, from behind. Merkel and I were on

good terms. I thought of what he had done and I basically hid behind the

monument and did the same thing. It was funny. This only matters

because, at this level of European politics, personal relationships are

important. With Sarkozy, it is a different matter. He feared my

friendship with Gadaffi Woodstock Libya supplying oil and gas. He

moved first to attack Libya and I think it was a big mistake. In your

analysis, what is wrong with Italian politics, you have had three prime

ministers in the past year. Everything? Italy is no longer a

democracy. In the past 20 years we have had four examples of coup

d'etats. We have had three successive governments that would

not directly elected recently. The deadline for the European elections

is looming. We faced two major threats. The first is the remaining

risk of a left-wing government and the other, you have probably heard

of him, is from Mr Beppe Grillo. He is a real danger to Italy and I are

very concerned. His behaviour reminds me of some of the most

bloody and dangerous characters in history. He has many things in

common with Robespierre, Stalin and Pol Pot. So he is not to be taken

lightly. It is unfortunate that as far as the rest of the world is

concerned, the reputation you have is about your private life. It is

about corruption and unpaid taxes and parties. What do you think about

that? Since I entered politics, I have been involved in 57 trials. I

have never had to deal with judges previously. 46 of the cases were

dismissed. I am dealing with ours -- others concerning my assets. It

takes up a lot of my time. For 20 years, I have spent every weekend

and each Monday afternoon with lawyers, to prepare the 2700

hearings held against me and my team will -- team. 2700 is a record, a

world record. And the lies invented about me have given me a bad

reputation abroad. Italians know very well that none of the facts are

true. The bunga bunga accusations were the most amazing things,

ridiculous. They manipulated reality. Luckily, I am a strong

person and I was able to take it. I want to go down in history as the

father of a country and as my legacy, a Conservative Central right

government to protect Italy from a potential dictator like Beppe

Grillo. The United States and China are busy

throwing names at each other after Washington accused five named

Chinese officers of hacking into American nuclear, metal and solar

firms to steal trade secrets. In the general manner of accusations of

espionage, there was much outrage, just as there used to be theatrical

horror at the discovery that spies existed. But the targets demonstrate

the extent to which international competition is increasingly about

firewalls as much as firearms. David Grossman reports.

Five named People's Liberation Army officers charged by the American

authorities with 31 counts of cyber-espionage. They are part of a

group known as a Pty, advance persistent threat group one. The US

government is convinced it is a Chinese state operation. This

administration will not tolerate actions by any nation that seeks to

sabotage American companies and undermine the integrity of fair

competition. Although the US authorities only made charges in

relation to activities against five US companies, Newsnight has learned

the same group of Chinese state military hackers has also targeted

eight British companies using the same tactics. It is an explosive

allegation. The FBI in investigation was prompted by this report, written

by a security specialists. They gave us a briefing on how the attacks

worked. We were told the potential damage to British companies is

virtually limitless. We have seen attacks focus on the most critical

parts of organisations. Unlike traditional cyber crime, something

that was an annoyance, you could lose a huge tender. If it is a

closed bid. If somebody knows how much you have bid, if they bid ?1

less, they will potentially win the business. It has a commercial impact

and potential to be catastrophic. What do we know about the hackers?

According to the group, they are commonly known as Unit 61398. This

is the building it is said the attacks came from. The Chinese

government reacted with angry denials. TRANSLATION: The United

States deliberately made up facts coming using the excuse of the

so-called stealing of secrets online to indict five Chinese military

officials. This has violated the basic principles of international

relations and damaged Chinese US cooperation and mutual trust. Here

is an actor installing something onto the server. This is voted off a

cyber attack happening. We spoke to one of the original report's authors

about how certain she was the Chinese government are behind this

activity. We did a lot of research, looking at the attacker

infrastructure, doing research on personas involved in hacking, and

taking advantage of operational security practices to link this back

to a specific location in Shanghai. We did research and noticed that

some telecommunications equipment they were using was given to them

from the Chinese government. It was a combination of variables that led

us to the conclusion. As to what happens now, it seems inconceivable

the five named army officers will ever face any legal process in the

United States. This is, as a source said, using the law as a tool of

diplomacy. The question is whether Britain will follow the United

States down this road in defence of British companies that have been

attacked. We asked the National crime agency

if they were aware of persistent attacks on British agencies and what

they intend to do about them. They told us it wasn't a question for

them but referred us to the Cabinet Office. They would only say that

this country faced attacks from a range of sources including several

established a capable states, but didn't name China.

The chief executive of the Football League and author of various

potty-mouthed sexist emails, Richard Scudamore, isn't going to have any

action taken against him by the sport's governing body. They say

they've no authority to do anything. The eruption of apologies testifies

to the huge embarrassment felt in the sport. There is more to come.

Laura Kuenssberg is here. It's a pretty unsavoury episode. In case

you about your fingers in your ears, what has happened is a temporary PA

leaked a series of e-mails that he had written containing some pretty

grisly sexist language to a Sunday newspaper. He has given a full

apology but there have been plenty of calls for him to go, including

the Prime Minister, more or less hinting at that. But the FA has said

there is nothing they can do, and the PA who leads the e-mails says

the investigation didn't even ask her for her account of what went on.

The other thing is, football isn't just about the game, it's about

business too. And you have something on that? Right now, the premiership

is sponsored by Barclays in a deal worth tens and tens of millions of

pounds. Right now I am being told that they have expressed privately,

horror and disappointment over what has happened. What is interesting is

they had suggested to me that even before this erupted, they had

decided that when this sponsorship deal comes up with the Premier

League, they will not want to renew the deal. That's not just because

the newest Chief Executive doesn't like football, although I am told

but is also the case, but because he feels that football and the Premier

League doesn't match up as a brand with the cultural clean-up that he

is trying to achieve at Barclays. So this is a banker thinking that there

are institutions held in low esteem than banking? ! That may be

surprising to some viewers. But please say no decisions have been

taken, there is no truth in this suggestion, but one source at one of

the clubs says that is indeed what everybody expects, that when the

deal is up, Barclays will walk away. So we find ourselves in a

pretty bizarre play-off for reputation, where bankers are trying

to disassociate themselves from footballers! Curiouser and

curiouser. The day after

curiouser. day. In England we can choose not

only who we want to represent us in the European parliament, but, much

closer to home, many of the people who will control local councils. In

some northern towns, the result has been a foregone conclusion since

Methuselah was a lad. Rotherham in South Yorkshire, for example, has 57

Labour councillors, handful of conservatives and one UKIP seat.

This year Nigel Farage's party has been blanketing the town with

posters, chasing the blue-collar vote. Now, the orthodox view is that

UKIP poses its biggest threat to the Conservatives. That may no longer be

true. Labour has always been in Rotherham,

as long as I can remember. My grandparents, my parents, they have

all voted Labour. But times change. I think it's time for a change.

This centre has been called the UKIP centre. I am not UKIP and they know

that. So I went discussing UKIP because I don't care who gets in,

they are all the same. My brothers, my sisters, we were all Labour, they

will still go Labour now immaterial of what is happening. What do you

think they are offering you, Labour? They are not offering me much. This

is a safe labour ward for generations. Then last year, UKIP

won its first ever seat on the council. The party has been taking

its message out to blue-collar workers, angry with mainstream

politics. The main policies I am voting UKIP for its because I think

we should come out of Europe and I think we should curb immigration.

They will never stop it now, because they will be closing the door when

it has all happened. Why do you feel so negative about immigration? It's

like our working lads. They work, they get immigration in, they will

work for Britain's so it's not fair on our lads. If I'm honest, I never

used to be racist, never. But this government, in the things it's

doing, is making me racist. And I think it's not just me, it's

thousands of other people, it's making as semi-racist, if you know

what I mean. They are letting immigrants in and giving them

everything. We would like the old brother Ron back. One in 20

residents of rubber room was born outside the UK, a number that has

doubled in a decade. It still a long way below the national average. A

bustling Asian market has just opened, held once a week in the town

centre. I believe this is my country, even my children tell me,

this is our country. And if I say that after 42 years I'm still

Pakistani, I am lying to myself. Muhammad came to Rotherham from

Kashmir. He worked most of his life in the steelworks. In your time in

this country, how have you traditionally voted? Which party

would you vote for? Most time, we voted for Labour but we have voted

for conservatives as well. What has the Labour Party offered you? I

don't know much about the politics, but the way we think about the

Labour Party, they provided jobs, and we needed jobs. This is how we

think and we supported them previously. That is what I'm saying.

But today, times are different. I don't think this way, our children

don't think this way. On the outskirts of Rotherham, the old

colliery is being shut down. The last of its kind in South Yorkshire,

heavy industry has declined and so has the strength of labour's core

vote. Up towards the pit... Have you always been a Labour voter? Apart

from last year won a budget UKIP, that was a protest vote. When there

is an election, I will always vote Labour. All the way through your

life? What has the Labour Party meant to you? I am working class, it

has meant everything. I've can't put it into words. But it has changed

over the last 30 years, politics. It has got worse, not better. All this

being in Europe and stuff like that. It is the general discontent with

the establishment which UKIP has been trying to tap into. A study

this year found 40% of voters who describe themselves as working class

saving now have no representation in politics. The only thing we have

gone wrong as we have allowed mass immigration... The only place that

people want to come is Britain, because we have got the best welfare

system in Europe. Switzerland and Norway aren't in that they are doing

very well. Do you think the Labour Party still represents you? Not like

in the 40s and 50s. Dennis Skinner and Tony Benn, they were real Labour

men, not like what we have got now. Well the men at the miners welfare

may feel disillusioned, they still say they will vote Labour this week.

A younger generation might not feel those ties so strongly. All be so

loyal at the ballot box. I will vote for UKIP. They shouldn't let

foreigners into the country when we couldn't even look after our own. I

have been working since the age of 14 and my tax sometimes goes to the

wrong things and I think they need to look at that to go to the right

sort of things. Do you feel as a voter, is it time for a change?

Definitely. They have not done anything in my eyes for them to stay

in, I think it is time for a change, see what other people can bring to

the table, see if they can change things in the amount of time they

have got and if they can do something to help this town come

back to the way it is supposed to be. Enough warning signs, then, for

Ed Miliband. There is little doubt that UKIP will take some votes from

later this week, the real question is how many and whether it can hold

onto them next year the election that matters the most. Labour's

Shadow Communities Secretary is here. Do you understand why some

previous Labour voters now support UKIP? I do, because the world has

changed for some people, old industries have gone. There is a

group of people who feel the world is more insecure, the old deal that

you worked hard, you got on, your children can look forward to a

better life, people are not social about that because of a changing

world, what is happening in the environment, people being able to

afford rent, a place to buy, pensions... The question is what is

going to provide the solution? What is going to help? I would simply say

about Nigel Farage that is the answer to every problem that we face

is to say get out of Europe. That isn't the answer to any of them.

Nonetheless, people are clearly profoundly disenchanted, not all

people, but many people, profoundly disenchanted with what your party

has two offer. You saw it in the way they spoke fondly about Dennis

Skinner and your dad. They think, a lot of these people, that the party

has been taken over by a bunch of professional politicians. What is

politics about? Why do I do this job? Why is Ed Miliband the leader

of the party? It is because we want to make a difference. We want to use

the opportunity as elected representatives to deal with the

problems. Somebody mentioned on the film wages, why did Ed Miliband talk

this week about a stronger minimum wage. Labour brought Latin, dealing

with the exploitation of the past. We listen and think about the

problems people face. The people are not listening, are they? It will be

a close fight in the election next year and also a tight fight in this

one. You have to stand up for what you believe in and say to people if

you are privately renting, spending 41% of your income on rent in this

country, we have said we think people should have longer term

tenancies. You are a family with children about to start school. What

good is that if in 12 months the landlord does not renew the tendency

or you are not sure about the rent gumming up. People worry about

energy bills. Ed Miliband said it was not good enough to say you

cannot do anything about the free market. You have mentioned Ed

Miliband four times, is he a man of the people, as much as Nigel

Farage? I think Ed Miliband is. I have travelled with him. People feel

he is approachable and they talk to him. The test of a politician is

have you listened, have you got policies that will make a difference

to people's lives? We have a job to get across to people the policies we

are arguing for so they are heard by voters. The disenchantment you heard

in that piece suggest you are saddled with a leader who is more

interested in ideas rather than people. I do not agree. If you are

going to help people you need policies that will make a

difference. Take the insecurity over zero-hours contracts. How can you

possibly save... How can you get a mortgage on a zero hours contract?

Ed Miliband said we need to deal with the worst aspects of them

because the story is for a group of people the world appears to have

moved on and left them behind. They feel insecure. The job of Labour

politics is to show we understand that and to put forward policies to

provide help. Last time you said it was a protest vote and you were

listening and you were going to change. I assume you have listened.

They are not believing you. It is a struggle, it is an argument and

debate about what future the country will have. For the moment, Nigel

Farage appears to get a certain amount of support and he is very

charming in his own way, although he leads an unappetising party. In the

end, his other policies, such as a flat tax rate, which would increase

taxes the people we saw in the film, making us pay to see the GP,

getting out of Europe, which would be bad the jobs. None of those

policies are going to help the people you were talking to in that

film. I think that in time, if we make the case, get across what

Labour wants to do to make a difference, that is how you win

support. Thanks. I will show you one front page, the Daily Mail, saying

Prince Charles, I am not sure where he said this, it is not clear, but

Prince Charles has apparently compare to Vladimir Putin to Hitler.

A withering verdict on the actions of the Russian president in Ukraine,

according to the Daily Mail. I only have the front page and presumably

the sources inside. Time to say good night. Although

members of Led Zeppelin may not sleep too well. The estate of one

Randy California, a musician who played at the same time as them in

the late 1960s, and who died in poverty, is suing for copyright

infringement. It is claimed that Stairway To Heaven, which has

grossed more than half a billion dollars since 1971, sounds rather

too much like Mr California's rather less well-known guitar instrumental,

called Taurus. We'll let you decide the merits of the claim. Here's his

track, with a bit of Robert Plant vocal added on top.

Good night. For a lot of places it should be

fine and dry