Browse content similar to 29/05/2014. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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The Government and the Iraq inquiry have come to a deal | :00:00. | :00:07. | |
which means the totality of what Tony Blair and George Bush | :00:08. | :00:09. | |
said to each other in the lead-up to war will be forever secret. | :00:10. | :00:13. | |
Instead, we will have gists and quotes | :00:14. | :00:15. | |
Without the whole truth, will the inquiry be a sham? | :00:16. | :00:21. | |
I'll be asking Tony Blair's friend Lord Falconer. | :00:22. | :00:25. | |
UKIP won the Euro vote with a particular vision of England, | :00:26. | :00:28. | |
and it's not one this man subscribes to. | :00:29. | :00:38. | |
# Britain isn't cool, you know, it's really not that great. | :00:39. | :00:46. | |
# It's not a proper country... Billy Bragg is here to argue | :00:47. | :00:50. | |
with Peter Hitchens And as Brazil prepares to welcome | :00:51. | :00:53. | |
the football fans to the World Cup, in shoring up the country's | :00:54. | :00:58. | |
21-year dictatorship. TRANSLATION: I had effectively been | :00:59. | :01:11. | |
disappeared, all the psychological pressure to destabilise me, I | :01:12. | :01:15. | |
couldn't sleep, I did not know if it was day or night. It was day or | :01:16. | :01:19. | |
night. Messing with someone's personality. -- it is a very | :01:20. | :01:24. | |
powerful way of messing. Gists and quotes. That's what the | :01:25. | :01:27. | |
Iraq Inquiry will be able to report of the communications | :01:28. | :01:32. | |
and discussions between Tony Blair and George Bush | :01:33. | :01:33. | |
in the run up to the Iraq War in a deal that has taken an age | :01:34. | :01:37. | |
to hammer out. This may mean that the inquiry | :01:38. | :01:40. | |
which Lord Chilcot said, in his opening statement, | :01:41. | :01:43. | |
expected to report in 2010, But will it be of any use | :01:44. | :01:45. | |
if the many conversations between the then British Prime | :01:46. | :01:50. | |
Minister and the US president No, say the families of soldiers | :01:51. | :01:53. | |
killed in action. I'll be talking to the former | :01:54. | :01:57. | |
Lord Chancellor, Lord Falconer, Tony Blair's confidante | :01:58. | :02:00. | |
then and now in a moment. No British document or British | :02:01. | :02:17. | |
witness will be beyond the scope of the inquiry... No limits on what | :02:18. | :02:21. | |
Chilcot could ask or to whom, but limits on how much we get to know. | :02:22. | :02:28. | |
We may never see the promises Blair made to Bush on Iraq, we may never | :02:29. | :02:32. | |
know what he committed to before asking Parliament or the public. | :02:33. | :02:36. | |
More than ten years since the war began, five years since Sir John | :02:37. | :02:41. | |
Chilcot's inquiry into what happened started, he has announced he will | :02:42. | :02:46. | |
not be able to publish the full extent of crucial contacts between | :02:47. | :02:52. | |
Blair and Bush. For some of the families of people killed, only | :02:53. | :02:55. | |
getting part of the truth is not enough. We want to know the whole | :02:56. | :03:00. | |
and the full reasons why we went into this very spurious war, which | :03:01. | :03:06. | |
was after all a war of option, not necessity. So I want the full facts | :03:07. | :03:13. | |
why my son died, not just the gist bid. The block on publishing | :03:14. | :03:18. | |
documents is not just intelligence or military information, but Blair | :03:19. | :03:21. | |
and Bushpolitically intimate communications, and one particular | :03:22. | :03:26. | |
note written after a meeting between the two after a meeting at a ranch | :03:27. | :03:33. | |
in Texas the year before the war. Blair's critics said he made a | :03:34. | :03:38. | |
promise to go along with an invasion before he knew of it could be kept. | :03:39. | :03:42. | |
I was saying, you can count on us, we will be with you, but these are | :03:43. | :03:46. | |
the difficulties. As you see, the rest of the note is about all the | :03:47. | :03:52. | |
issues and difficulties. So in a sense what I was saying to America | :03:53. | :03:57. | |
is, look, and by the way this is how George Bush took it, I am absolutely | :03:58. | :04:01. | |
sure, whatever the political heat, if I think this is the right thing | :04:02. | :04:05. | |
to do, I am going to be with you. I am not going to back out because the | :04:06. | :04:10. | |
going gets tough. After months of wrangling, the inquiry has announced | :04:11. | :04:14. | |
it will publish what they describe as gists and quotes, requested from | :04:15. | :04:19. | |
25 notes and more than 130 conversations between Mr Blair and | :04:20. | :04:25. | |
President Bush. Potential gaps provided in the material have, they | :04:26. | :04:30. | |
say, now been addressed, but some material has only been received very | :04:31. | :04:34. | |
recently. There is also agreement to publish a small number of full | :04:35. | :04:40. | |
extracts from Cabinet papers. The inquiry team has been able to say | :04:41. | :04:44. | |
everything they have asked for, as well as hearing countless witnesses | :04:45. | :04:48. | |
here, but government officials will have to agree precisely what is | :04:49. | :04:53. | |
published. And nothing that suggests the views of President Bush will be | :04:54. | :04:56. | |
revealed. Despite weeks and weeks of hearings, hours and hours of | :04:57. | :05:01. | |
evidence, the final report was never going to be the full, pure, | :05:02. | :05:06. | |
unadulterated truth. But this is so clearly a compromise between the | :05:07. | :05:10. | |
inquiry and officials who are determined not to publish all, | :05:11. | :05:15. | |
private correspondence of Tony Blair, and Americans reluctant to | :05:16. | :05:20. | |
play ball. One source familiar to the process told me that it is as | :05:21. | :05:25. | |
simple as the Americans saying no. If Tony Blair had some exchanges | :05:26. | :05:30. | |
with George double you Bush, some of them should be in the public domain, | :05:31. | :05:34. | |
but on the whole if you are now going to say to every world leader | :05:35. | :05:39. | |
that any communication with the British Prime Minister is not | :05:40. | :05:41. | |
confidential, they will stop talking to us. We may now say it was a | :05:42. | :05:46. | |
terrible mistake, like the Afghanistan war, which still goes on | :05:47. | :05:51. | |
as a terrible mistake, but at the time it was Tony Blair, it was me, | :05:52. | :05:56. | |
Jack Straw, William Hague, David Cameron, taking that decision after | :05:57. | :06:00. | |
lengthy debates, thinking about it and deciding that it was the right | :06:01. | :06:04. | |
thing to do. There is no other truth. But for military families, | :06:05. | :06:09. | |
without publishing the fullest version of events, what can this | :06:10. | :06:14. | |
inquiry really achieve? I need to draw a line under this, and until I | :06:15. | :06:17. | |
know the full truth, I cannot do that. And it will be an open sore | :06:18. | :06:26. | |
until the day I die. Iraq is still grappling with the aftermath of war. | :06:27. | :06:31. | |
11 killed yesterday, the level of violence is the highest in years. | :06:32. | :06:36. | |
Our political legacy is still to be settled. But a less than explicitly | :06:37. | :06:41. | |
complete version of events from the Chilcot inquiry may still leave room | :06:42. | :06:44. | |
for both sides to choose their truths. | :06:45. | :06:46. | |
A little earlier I was joined by Charlie Falconer, | :06:47. | :06:48. | |
former Lord Chancellor and still close friend of Tony Blair. | :06:49. | :06:54. | |
I started by asking him who the Iraq inquiry was for. | :06:55. | :06:57. | |
It's for the public to see what happened | :06:58. | :06:59. | |
in relation to decisions leading up to the Iraq | :07:00. | :07:03. | |
and it's for the public to discover what the truth of the position is. | :07:04. | :07:07. | |
I remember at the time of the discussion | :07:08. | :07:09. | |
whether the inquiry would be public or private, you said very clearly | :07:10. | :07:12. | |
that it needed to be public so the public would have confidence in it. | :07:13. | :07:16. | |
Absolutely. Surely the idea that we will just have gists and quotes | :07:17. | :07:20. | |
of the correspondence between Tony Blair and George Bush | :07:21. | :07:23. | |
means that confidence will be undermined. | :07:24. | :07:24. | |
because the inquiry have had all of the material for three years. | :07:25. | :07:29. | |
They will be able to summarise what they've got, and what's more, | :07:30. | :07:33. | |
in relation to the open hearings, remember when Tony Blair gave | :07:34. | :07:37. | |
evidence in the inquiry, he referred to what most people regard, | :07:38. | :07:41. | |
quite openly, with the consent of the inquiry, | :07:42. | :07:44. | |
to the most sensitive parts of the correspondence. | :07:45. | :07:47. | |
So I don't think there's any real sense | :07:48. | :07:49. | |
that things have been kept from the public. | :07:50. | :07:52. | |
Have you spoken to Tony Blair about this? Today, yes. | :07:53. | :07:54. | |
Was he evincing the idea that it should be reported in full? | :07:55. | :08:01. | |
Well, he's saying it's a matter for the Government | :08:02. | :08:04. | |
and a matter for Chilcot and the Government to reach an agreement. | :08:05. | :08:09. | |
He will accept any conclusion they have reached, | :08:10. | :08:11. | |
he's not been consulted about the agreement they reached. | :08:12. | :08:14. | |
He's expressed the view in the past that there should be | :08:15. | :08:18. | |
some appropriate degree of confidentiality, | :08:19. | :08:20. | |
which is obviously right, but in this instance, | :08:21. | :08:23. | |
the question of what the inquiry can publish is a matter for them. | :08:24. | :08:27. | |
But it's easy for Tony Blair to say he'll go along with the Government, | :08:28. | :08:31. | |
that there's not going to be full disclosure. | :08:32. | :08:36. | |
It's for the Government to make up their mind. | :08:37. | :08:40. | |
They've got to balance the ongoing relationship | :08:41. | :08:43. | |
with other heads of state against the openness of this inquiry. | :08:44. | :08:47. | |
What is it in his correspondence? Have you seen it? | :08:48. | :08:51. | |
I have, and I assume it's not the content of this correspondence, | :08:52. | :08:56. | |
it is the fact of a British inquiry releasing information of this sort. | :08:57. | :09:01. | |
Hang on, that means this Government is second guessing what might happen | :09:02. | :09:05. | |
in the future, so therefore, at some sort about what the impact it might | :09:06. | :09:11. | |
have an Anglo-American relations, people are not going to see the | :09:12. | :09:14. | |
entirety of this correspondence, it is all supposition. | :09:15. | :09:17. | |
They are going to know the substance of the correspondence, | :09:18. | :09:21. | |
and they will have seen the critical parts quoted in the open hearings. | :09:22. | :09:28. | |
You are repeating the idea that Tony Blair has made it clear that some of | :09:29. | :09:32. | |
the most sensitive stuff has already come out in the public hearings, | :09:33. | :09:36. | |
but if the public doesn't see the totality of the correspondence, | :09:37. | :09:41. | |
it's fair to assume the public will be suspicious. | :09:42. | :09:45. | |
Why should they trust politicians just now? | :09:46. | :09:47. | |
Because in the past they feel they have not been able to. | :09:48. | :09:51. | |
because it is not the politicians that will determine the gists. | :09:52. | :09:56. | |
Chilcot and his fellow enquirers have had this correspondence... | :09:57. | :09:59. | |
Actually, they've had it for three years, so they have had | :10:00. | :10:02. | |
every opportunity to consider it, and they are independent. | :10:03. | :10:06. | |
I don't think people think Chilcot and the other members | :10:07. | :10:11. | |
of the inquiry are like politicians, they are independent people. | :10:12. | :10:15. | |
But if they are independent people, you say the Government is making the | :10:16. | :10:19. | |
decision the full correspondence should not be revealed. | :10:20. | :10:23. | |
So Chilcott does not have a free hand in this, he's not independent. | :10:24. | :10:29. | |
He would wish to release the whole lot, the Government have said, | :10:30. | :10:34. | |
for reasons that they don't want to damage relations | :10:35. | :10:37. | |
with America in the future, they have reached a compromise, | :10:38. | :10:41. | |
and that was the compromise that has been made public this afternoon. | :10:42. | :10:44. | |
So we are hidebound by the Americans, essentially. | :10:45. | :10:48. | |
It is for us to decide, the Americans cannot make the decision, | :10:49. | :10:55. | |
but a judgment has been made by the British Government, | :10:56. | :10:59. | |
and Chilcot has reached an accommodation | :11:00. | :11:01. | |
with the Government whereby they give us | :11:02. | :11:07. | |
as much as they want in terms of gists. | :11:08. | :11:11. | |
I am not sure it is an unsensible compromise. | :11:12. | :11:14. | |
It is perfectly convenient for Tony Blair. | :11:15. | :11:15. | |
either for Tony Blair or anybody else, | :11:16. | :11:19. | |
because if the inquiry, which is independent, want to condemn him | :11:20. | :11:22. | |
or anybody else, this agreement does not in any way prevent them | :11:23. | :11:25. | |
from either condemning or approving or whatever conclusion they reach. | :11:26. | :11:28. | |
What would you say to the families who are suspicious of all this? | :11:29. | :11:32. | |
Who feel you have just said you saw nothing in that correspondence that | :11:33. | :11:35. | |
you would feel would be damaging in any to Anglo-American relations? | :11:36. | :11:38. | |
If it was up to you, you would reveal it. | :11:39. | :11:41. | |
Why should the public have any confidence? | :11:42. | :11:45. | |
Well, because they have got an independent inquiry | :11:46. | :11:51. | |
with reputable people who are independent of the politicians | :11:52. | :11:53. | |
who are going to make the judgments. Trust the inquiry. | :11:54. | :11:56. | |
With a resolution to this issue, do you think | :11:57. | :11:58. | |
I do, my judgment is there will be a report before the end of year. | :11:59. | :12:04. | |
Lord Falconer, thank you very much. | :12:05. | :12:10. | |
I am joined now by diplomatic editor Mark bourbon, first of all, Tony | :12:11. | :12:17. | |
Blair now has nothing to fear, if he ever had. Well, I don't know. It's | :12:18. | :12:22. | |
true to say I have been talking to contacts about what we can now | :12:23. | :12:26. | |
expect, and what would be in these letters sent to people who were | :12:27. | :12:30. | |
facing criticism from the inquiry. It is true, I am told, it will not | :12:31. | :12:35. | |
be levelled at him as a charge that he manipulated the intelligence | :12:36. | :12:39. | |
about weapons of mass destruction. Just like the foreign affairs | :12:40. | :12:43. | |
committee, the intelligence and security committee, the happen | :12:44. | :12:46. | |
inquiry, this one will not say that. But I am told that it will levelled | :12:47. | :12:50. | |
charges of mismanagement against Tony Blair about the way he handled | :12:51. | :12:56. | |
the politics and the way he was optimistic about what would happen | :12:57. | :13:01. | |
in Iraq. But this is not just about Tony Blair, what are people saying | :13:02. | :13:07. | |
about the report? I think it is inevitable, because of the emotions | :13:08. | :13:11. | |
that Tony Blair is Vokes in people, for and against on this question, | :13:12. | :13:15. | |
that it blocks out an awful lot of what the inquiry was meant to do, | :13:16. | :13:20. | |
which was to look at how this very serious foreign policy step was | :13:21. | :13:24. | |
taken, military step, intelligence, to analyse what was done wrong. Now | :13:25. | :13:29. | |
I am hearing that dozens of people are going to get these letters. This | :13:30. | :13:33. | |
includes not just politicians, Mr Blair and his cabinet members, but | :13:34. | :13:40. | |
officials, intelligence people, senior armed forces officers, all | :13:41. | :13:43. | |
facing criticisms. This is going to take a long time. The people who | :13:44. | :13:48. | |
have been called to the inquiry or are reported on, what do they do | :13:49. | :13:51. | |
with these letters? Is there an appeal? I believe they have a | :13:52. | :13:59. | |
month, so there is a process, they have to put together the letters. | :14:00. | :14:02. | |
This whole dispute has been about what they can quote from in | :14:03. | :14:07. | |
justifying some of these criticisms that will be levelled. Could it mean | :14:08. | :14:13. | |
the end of careers? A lot of these people are already out of government | :14:14. | :14:16. | |
service or the military, or wherever they were at the time, it is 2003 | :14:17. | :14:21. | |
and the subsequent to that. They will get letters, they will have a | :14:22. | :14:23. | |
chance to respond, and if the will get letters, they will have a | :14:24. | :14:27. | |
chance to respond, and inquiry thinks that the response is | :14:28. | :14:29. | |
justified, they might alter it, and it will go into the final report. | :14:30. | :14:33. | |
People are saying that, before the end of the year that is realistic. | :14:34. | :14:38. | |
If you want to be cool, you have to have Beats by Dr Dre on your ears, | :14:39. | :14:42. | |
so Apple have taken it one step further today and have bought | :14:43. | :14:45. | |
the whole company for $3 billion in their biggest acquisition ever. | :14:46. | :14:48. | |
But distinctive and expensive as the headphones are, it's apparently | :14:49. | :14:51. | |
the Beats' music streaming service, the biggest rival to Spotify, | :14:52. | :14:54. | |
Here's Jim Reed with the story. A clever canny bet on the future or a | :14:55. | :15:13. | |
sign of desperation? Apple's decision to either trendy | :15:14. | :15:16. | |
electronics company Beats tells us something about where the whole | :15:17. | :15:19. | |
entertainment industry might be heading. Its best-known products, | :15:20. | :15:24. | |
range of fashion headphones, plastered with a giant logo. This | :15:25. | :15:37. | |
pair of headphones. ?219.95. And by the way, they are really quite | :15:38. | :15:45. | |
expensive. The deal will make multimillionaires of the founders, | :15:46. | :15:47. | |
one of those the influential music executive Jimmy Ivy described the | :15:48. | :15:54. | |
white headphones from Apple like sounding like mosquitoes. The Forbes | :15:55. | :16:01. | |
list adjuster changed. It came out two weeks ago for them they need to | :16:02. | :16:06. | |
update the Forbes list. The other, Dr Dre is seen getting into trouble | :16:07. | :16:09. | |
boasting about the sale before it was signed off. The first | :16:10. | :16:18. | |
billionaire in hip-hop. Many in the know say Beats's products seem to be | :16:19. | :16:24. | |
lacking quality but they're not selling a device but lifestyle. Dr | :16:25. | :16:31. | |
Dre has been in the game for 30 years. It's responsible for many | :16:32. | :16:37. | |
rappers, and he's one of those people who mentors and changes the | :16:38. | :16:42. | |
game constantly. Dr Dre says these are the best headphones to listen to | :16:43. | :16:45. | |
music, people will take it seriously. Kids will take it | :16:46. | :16:51. | |
seriously. He is the doctor. But this is clearly about more than just | :16:52. | :16:55. | |
headphones and Alec tonics. It's about the future of the music | :16:56. | :16:59. | |
industry itself. That electronic. Just like downloading has wiped out | :17:00. | :17:05. | |
the record store, so new technology is threatening to take over in the | :17:06. | :17:12. | |
same way. Apple's iTunes store still rules the market for online music | :17:13. | :17:15. | |
but there are very worrying signs for the technology giant. Sales in | :17:16. | :17:21. | |
the USA slumped by one quarter this year. Instead, younger customers are | :17:22. | :17:26. | |
switching to a new breed of Internet streaming services where you pay a | :17:27. | :17:31. | |
monthly subscription and listen to any track whenever you want on a | :17:32. | :17:34. | |
phone or computer but you never own the music itself. It's very | :17:35. | :17:40. | |
interesting because the notion that we no longer own any of our music, | :17:41. | :17:44. | |
that there is no physical collection, too many of us, it seems | :17:45. | :17:50. | |
extraordinary. We use to understand something about a person when it | :17:51. | :17:53. | |
went into their house and saw what books and records they had and CDs. | :17:54. | :17:57. | |
And you don't do that any more. Under this scenario, that all goes, | :17:58. | :18:02. | |
and we are invisible except we are not big of that sort of identity | :18:03. | :18:08. | |
shows up online. Beats runs one of the largest streaming services | :18:09. | :18:11. | |
available in the USA but not yet in the UK for the instead of using | :18:12. | :18:16. | |
computer algorithms it employs teams of human taste makers to music to | :18:17. | :18:23. | |
listen to. But with just 250,000 paying subscribers, it is still much | :18:24. | :18:27. | |
smaller than rivals like spot of five full cup with more than 10 | :18:28. | :18:32. | |
million worldwide. A dealer this size is attractive to Apple because | :18:33. | :18:39. | |
it has such deep pockets full of the company had ?95 billion in cash just | :18:40. | :18:44. | |
sitting in its account. These headphones have become a fashion | :18:45. | :18:47. | |
statement and what's really interesting, I think, Apple is | :18:48. | :18:51. | |
always managed to play both the culture side and the technology side | :18:52. | :18:57. | |
and brought it together. It's understood the value and the power | :18:58. | :19:01. | |
of that in the community and its strength is often been together | :19:02. | :19:04. | |
technology to get out of the way in order for people to experience | :19:05. | :19:08. | |
culture more directly. I think of this deal plays right into that. It | :19:09. | :19:15. | |
might make sense on paper but this is still a gamble for the world 's | :19:16. | :19:19. | |
biggest technology company. The success or failure of this deal | :19:20. | :19:23. | |
could decide not just how Apple performs, but how the music industry | :19:24. | :19:25. | |
looks in a decade 's time. UKIP's spectacular success | :19:26. | :19:28. | |
in the European elections speaks to a certain view of the UK | :19:29. | :19:31. | |
and its constituent parts, Nigel Farage has even offered to go | :19:32. | :19:34. | |
head to head with the First minister In particular, | :19:35. | :19:37. | |
UKIP represents an Englishness which, to the singer and campaigner | :19:38. | :19:40. | |
Billy Bragg, is unimaginable. Here he is singing Take Down | :19:41. | :19:43. | |
the Union Jack. UK. # It's really not cool that no. | :19:44. | :20:02. | |
# It's not that great. # It's not a proper country. It doesn't even have | :20:03. | :20:08. | |
a patron saint. # It's just an economic union. # It is past its | :20:09. | :20:11. | |
sell by date. Well, I'm joined now by two very | :20:12. | :20:16. | |
different types of Englishman. As is the author and Mail on Sunday | :20:17. | :20:19. | |
columnist Peter Hitchens. You delivered a lecture tonight | :20:20. | :20:26. | |
where you were talking about the notion of Englishness. Don't you | :20:27. | :20:31. | |
think Britishness exists? It exists but is coming under attack from the | :20:32. | :20:34. | |
idea of an independent Scotland or Devo Max Scotland. Before the | :20:35. | :20:41. | |
independent referendum, the three main parties offer maximum | :20:42. | :20:44. | |
devolution for Scotland. People in England are saying, why can't we | :20:45. | :20:50. | |
have some of it? You would like to see a federal system? Personally, I | :20:51. | :20:55. | |
would like to see assemblies in each of the English regions with the same | :20:56. | :21:02. | |
powers as Scotland. The boat across Europe, particularly UKIP, it's a | :21:03. | :21:05. | |
against globalisation and the way we deal with globalisation I believe is | :21:06. | :21:12. | |
to have bringing localism to people. -- provoked. -- the vote. It's | :21:13. | :21:23. | |
nothing to do with globalisation but with government. People living in | :21:24. | :21:27. | |
its own country, running itself under laws which its own people are | :21:28. | :21:31. | |
chosen. That's an entity which is not a country. It's dissolving as a | :21:32. | :21:36. | |
country because so many people have been trying to dissolve it and | :21:37. | :21:39. | |
there's strong pressure from the EU which likes country to be sliced up | :21:40. | :21:43. | |
into regions and smaller parts before it swallows them up. That's | :21:44. | :21:48. | |
what's behind the destruction of the union. The European Union's | :21:49. | :21:52. | |
inability to tolerate other federations on its territory. The | :21:53. | :21:57. | |
idea of England to you, is it something you are dear to? No, I've | :21:58. | :22:04. | |
always tried to defend the idea of Britain -- you adhere to. The | :22:05. | :22:13. | |
problem is that, because England has been under attack from within, for | :22:14. | :22:22. | |
many people in Britain, who didn't wanted to continue, who wanted to | :22:23. | :22:25. | |
dissolve it, they have used nationalism to do it. The problem | :22:26. | :22:30. | |
for the English if they are not in the driving seat of these forces. | :22:31. | :22:36. | |
The Scottish eye in the driving seat for devolution. The EU are in the | :22:37. | :22:41. | |
driving seat for globalisation, so the British state, England is a | :22:42. | :22:45. | |
country, written does another patron saint, football team, but England is | :22:46. | :22:49. | |
a country which has allowed its identity to be wrapped in the union | :22:50. | :22:56. | |
Jack since the glorious Revolution. We have got to pick up the threads | :22:57. | :23:01. | |
of Englishness. You say for George and the Dragon? They are different | :23:02. | :23:07. | |
traditions in England. If people see the flag of St George on the back of | :23:08. | :23:10. | |
a white minivan, they are immediately taken opinion. You never | :23:11. | :23:16. | |
say that with a Welsh flag or St Andrew? You have tried to reclaim | :23:17. | :23:24. | |
Englishness? From home? From whom? There is an element within UKIP, | :23:25. | :23:33. | |
little England. The other day factor English National party now. A lot of | :23:34. | :23:38. | |
people in England are puzzled by the fact for some reason the other | :23:39. | :23:42. | |
nations of the UK seem to want to tear themselves away and declare | :23:43. | :23:45. | |
loyalty to somebody else. Scotland isn't going to be independent. | :23:46. | :23:52. | |
Ireland will not be independent. Northern Ireland will not be | :23:53. | :23:54. | |
independent when it leaves, they will be provinces of the EU. Instead | :23:55. | :23:59. | |
of going to Brussels to London, they will go direct. It's barely possible | :24:00. | :24:04. | |
for the UK to be a sovereign country any more. For these other ones do it | :24:05. | :24:10. | |
is beyond. I don't understand how you can set the... -- set of their | :24:11. | :24:20. | |
and demand self-determination cash set there. -- | :24:21. | :24:32. | |
I think Scotland has more in common with England. That's up to the | :24:33. | :24:40. | |
people of Scotland to say not you. One of the reasons why Scotland is | :24:41. | :24:46. | |
likely I think to leave totally or through Devo Max is because of the | :24:47. | :24:51. | |
feebleness of the British response. Whole idea of unionism has lost all | :24:52. | :24:55. | |
force because the main party which was most do defend it has become a | :24:56. | :24:59. | |
European party. The Conservative Party ought to have been defending | :25:00. | :25:05. | |
the union. And the Labour Party. How can you defend the British UK whilst | :25:06. | :25:11. | |
simultaneously campaigning for the EU? They are viable entities. The | :25:12. | :25:16. | |
Scots Apple for self-determination is a response to globalisation, the | :25:17. | :25:22. | |
supranational capitalism which is manifested in the city of London. | :25:23. | :25:27. | |
Are you suggesting people in Scotland are not for the idea of the | :25:28. | :25:31. | |
European Union? Not at all. I'm suggesting there are no longer | :25:32. | :25:36. | |
willing to allow the market to solve all the problems that society | :25:37. | :25:40. | |
presents. There's that dogma we've had since the years of Thatcherism. | :25:41. | :25:46. | |
It wasn't away by new Labour. You are mixing of two different things | :25:47. | :25:50. | |
for the European Union imposes globalisation on the market and its | :25:51. | :25:54. | |
members in a ruthless fashion. If you think Scotland will escape that | :25:55. | :25:58. | |
by leaving the UK, you are by much mistaken. Let's be clear, it seems | :25:59. | :26:04. | |
to me, what the people that want a separate Scotland are saying, they | :26:05. | :26:07. | |
want it within the European Union. They may not get it. It is what is | :26:08. | :26:14. | |
fundamentally made practically possible. Before then, only a token | :26:15. | :26:19. | |
independence move would have been impossible which would have been a | :26:20. | :26:27. | |
dependent... I totally disagree. The public has 100% independent and | :26:28. | :26:30. | |
Scotland is just as viable as the Irish Republic. The Irish Republic | :26:31. | :26:36. | |
didn't attain it until it joined Europe and broke away from Britain. | :26:37. | :26:41. | |
That's when it became serious. Before that, it'd been a token | :26:42. | :26:46. | |
independence. Let's look to the future, the idea of a regional | :26:47. | :26:52. | |
assembly, a federalism, where England is reborn as a different | :26:53. | :26:59. | |
entity. Once that starts, who knows? I could set myself up, by a large | :27:00. | :27:04. | |
jumper and grow an enormous beard and become a Cornish nationalist and | :27:05. | :27:07. | |
subsidies and money would flow towards me. All kinds of things will | :27:08. | :27:13. | |
happen to England once the UK ceases to exists. All kinds of nationalism | :27:14. | :27:18. | |
to become possible. All of them will ultimately be provinces of the EU | :27:19. | :27:20. | |
and therefore not independent at all. It's a Morris dancing, it's not | :27:21. | :27:26. | |
a real country, a real country is people living on its own territory | :27:27. | :27:31. | |
making its own laws. That's not what any of these pledges will be. If | :27:32. | :27:35. | |
Nigel Farage more in touch with England and you are? He's in touch | :27:36. | :27:42. | |
with a certain type of England. A lot of people voted for him. People | :27:43. | :27:49. | |
were voting for him, the discontent of globalisation. For many people, | :27:50. | :27:52. | |
globalisation is intangible but the EU, it enforces globalisation, and | :27:53. | :27:58. | |
gives Google the opportunity to talk out against it. We need to reform | :27:59. | :28:03. | |
the EU so it becomes more less about national capitalism. It is not able | :28:04. | :28:09. | |
to be reformed. Thank you both very much indeed. Billy Bragg will play | :28:10. | :28:15. | |
as out tonight. You will have to do is find out what song he is playing. | :28:16. | :28:18. | |
Brazil will soon be the centre of the football-loving world. | :28:19. | :28:21. | |
A country famous for producing one of the best | :28:22. | :28:23. | |
But what has been forgotten by many is that at the height | :28:24. | :28:28. | |
of Pele's stellar career, Brazil was a military dictatorship. | :28:29. | :28:30. | |
President Dilma Rouseff, who was herself imprisoned and tortured, | :28:31. | :28:32. | |
set up a Truth Commission two years ago, and now that Commission has | :28:33. | :28:36. | |
produced evidence that makes uncomfortable reading for Britain. | :28:37. | :28:38. | |
The world's spotlight is on Brazil, football the popular obsession. | :28:39. | :29:03. | |
But here there is now a new fascination with the past | :29:04. | :29:06. | |
and the decades of military dictatorship. | :29:07. | :29:11. | |
more about the forgotten, dark side of Brazil. | :29:12. | :29:17. | |
democratically elected left-wing government in 1964. | :29:18. | :29:31. | |
The fear was of Soviet expansion after Cuba's Communist revolution. | :29:32. | :29:39. | |
There followed 21 years of dictatorship. | :29:40. | :29:46. | |
We've found compelling evidence that Britain not only welcomed the regime | :29:47. | :29:49. | |
but actively collaborated with the generals. | :29:50. | :29:56. | |
Torture was the generals' main tool of repression. | :29:57. | :29:59. | |
called the Young People's Popular Uprising. | :30:00. | :30:04. | |
They're now tracking down the torturers and publicly shaming them. | :30:05. | :30:09. | |
Hundreds died or disappeared during military rule. | :30:10. | :30:14. | |
but many were young students, union leaders or journalists. | :30:15. | :30:20. | |
were subjected to extreme physical violence before they were killed. | :30:21. | :30:26. | |
But from the early 1970s, things changed. | :30:27. | :30:29. | |
Survivors speak of a new form of psychological torture, | :30:30. | :30:32. | |
a method that came to be called the English system. | :30:33. | :30:39. | |
The hub of the regime's torture apparatus | :30:40. | :30:41. | |
inside the headquarters of the military police. | :30:42. | :30:46. | |
Alvaro Caldas was a journalist and member of a militant group. | :30:47. | :30:52. | |
He was brought here, severely beaten and tortured with electric shocks. | :30:53. | :30:57. | |
Three years later, he had given up politics, | :30:58. | :31:00. | |
but still he was rearrested and brought back. | :31:01. | :31:06. | |
TRANSLATION: I was in the same place, | :31:07. | :31:10. | |
but I noticed there were marked differences. | :31:11. | :31:13. | |
and the smell made me feel really sick. | :31:14. | :31:19. | |
and there was this sound which alternated loud and soft. | :31:20. | :31:26. | |
When I was questioned, I always had to wear a hood. | :31:27. | :31:30. | |
All this psychological pressure to destabilise me. | :31:31. | :31:36. | |
I couldn't sleep, I didn't know if it was day or night. | :31:37. | :31:39. | |
It's a very powerful way of messing with someone's personality. | :31:40. | :31:44. | |
If I had been there for two weeks or a month, I would have gone mad. | :31:45. | :31:54. | |
This frail old man was once a notorious torturer. | :31:55. | :31:58. | |
Colonel Paolo Malhaes came to give evidence | :31:59. | :32:00. | |
unrepentant for his record of killing and mutilation of victims. | :32:01. | :32:09. | |
the special cell in Rio was based on an idea learned in the UK. | :32:10. | :32:32. | |
We found out that in a private conversation with the prosecutor, | :32:33. | :32:36. | |
the Colonel had admitted he himself had been to Britain. | :32:37. | :32:41. | |
was killed in a suspicious burglary at his home. | :32:42. | :32:47. | |
Buried with him are the details of exactly what he learned. | :32:48. | :32:50. | |
It's likely to have been the controversial stress techniques | :32:51. | :32:53. | |
that the British trained agents of the Brazilian military? | :32:54. | :33:02. | |
Well, we've come to see a man who actually interviewed many | :33:03. | :33:05. | |
of the highest ranking generals while they were still alive. | :33:06. | :33:12. | |
Are you convinced, from your interviews, | :33:13. | :33:15. | |
that there was collaboration between the British and the Brazilian army? | :33:16. | :33:21. | |
Definitely. Why would they mention this? | :33:22. | :33:24. | |
Why were they looking abroad to learn how to interrogate people? | :33:25. | :33:28. | |
My guess, based on what I've read, what I've heard, | :33:29. | :33:33. | |
is that their simple brute techniques were not working. | :33:34. | :33:41. | |
several generals told him they'd sent officers to London. | :33:42. | :33:46. | |
One said, "The Americans teach, but the English are masters | :33:47. | :33:49. | |
in teaching how to wrench confessions under pressure, | :33:50. | :33:52. | |
by torture, in all ways. England is the model of democracy. | :33:53. | :33:55. | |
They give courses for their friends." | :33:56. | :34:00. | |
The head of the Rio Truth Commission is under pressure | :34:01. | :34:03. | |
Brazilians have long known America paid for and taught repression. | :34:04. | :34:09. | |
It's been a revelation here that Britain was also involved. | :34:10. | :34:15. | |
to hear that a democracy which is so important, | :34:16. | :34:22. | |
so established, so old, collaborated with the dictatorship. | :34:23. | :34:30. | |
We then tracked down a former leader of a police death squad. | :34:31. | :34:33. | |
He couldn't come to Rio because of threats to his life. | :34:34. | :34:38. | |
It's alleged that Claudio Guerra killed up to 100 people. | :34:39. | :34:42. | |
Now he's found God and works as a Christian pastor. | :34:43. | :34:47. | |
who were teaching interrogation techniques in Brazil. | :34:48. | :34:56. | |
TRANSLATION: I had contacts with two, | :34:57. | :34:59. | |
The one in Rio stayed at the Copacabana Palace. | :35:00. | :35:08. | |
How did you know they were English agents? | :35:09. | :35:13. | |
Because we knew the American agents from the CIA. | :35:14. | :35:23. | |
The Americans spoke Spanish, they were all Cubans. | :35:24. | :35:26. | |
so you could tell they were not Americans. | :35:27. | :35:35. | |
And when they were teaching, they said the techniques | :35:36. | :35:39. | |
were used in Ireland and had given good results. | :35:40. | :35:50. | |
Britain's interrogation methods were widely admired. | :35:51. | :35:53. | |
It's known from documents in the national archives in Kew | :35:54. | :35:56. | |
that they were also exported to allies. | :35:57. | :36:02. | |
We've discovered evidence that Brazil was one of them. | :36:03. | :36:05. | |
to Brazil adopting acceptable standards of interrogation | :36:06. | :36:13. | |
of the kind permitted in Northern Ireland, | :36:14. | :36:15. | |
or the commander of the first army in Rio describing | :36:16. | :36:18. | |
the new techniques as taking a leaf out of the British book. | :36:19. | :36:23. | |
Then we found this 1972 letter from the British ambassador, | :36:24. | :36:27. | |
There is a reference to the adoption by the Brazilians | :36:28. | :36:33. | |
of more sophisticated methods of interrogation. | :36:34. | :36:35. | |
"As you know, I think they have in the past | :36:36. | :36:38. | |
been influenced by suggestions and advice emanating from us." | :36:39. | :36:42. | |
In the confidential letter on torture... | :36:43. | :36:46. | |
Sir Alan Munro was a diplomat in Brazil just afterwards. | :36:47. | :36:50. | |
We showed him the ambassador's letter. | :36:51. | :36:52. | |
He said he personally had no knowledge of British collaboration. | :36:53. | :36:57. | |
If the Brazilians were looking at techniques, if you like, | :36:58. | :37:01. | |
of interrogation used by British authorities, | :37:02. | :37:04. | |
would have been the early years of the Troubles in Northern Ireland, | :37:05. | :37:12. | |
well, this would have been undertaken, I would say, | :37:13. | :37:15. | |
under some Brazilian initiative of inquiry. | :37:16. | :37:19. | |
And to the extent that it might help to reduce | :37:20. | :37:22. | |
the most brutal methods which had, in some cases, been employed, | :37:23. | :37:28. | |
well then, it would be a step in the right direction. | :37:29. | :37:36. | |
the idea that Britain helped train the torturers | :37:37. | :37:41. | |
was not a step in the right direction. | :37:42. | :37:43. | |
colluding with the oppressive regime, | :37:44. | :37:49. | |
a regime which still hasn't faced justice. | :37:50. | :37:52. | |
In a written response, the Foreign Office told us that it does | :37:53. | :37:56. | |
not comment on the work or documents of previous administrations. | :37:57. | :38:00. | |
Reading Ariana Huffington's CV is so exhausting | :38:01. | :38:02. | |
I had to lie down in the Newsnight office for a few minutes. | :38:03. | :38:06. | |
Chair, president and editor-in chief of the Huff Post Media Group, | :38:07. | :38:09. | |
author of 14 books, she serves on several boards, | :38:10. | :38:12. | |
including that of the main Spanish daily paper and its parent company, | :38:13. | :38:19. | |
the Committee to Protect Journalists and so it goes on. | :38:20. | :38:24. | |
But now she's admitted she's exhausted too | :38:25. | :38:26. | |
your success isn't dependent on money and power, | :38:27. | :38:32. | |
which for the vast massive majority of the population it probably isn't. | :38:33. | :38:36. | |
Arianna Huffington, at the bases of gists and quotes, you are saying | :38:37. | :38:46. | |
there has to be a third dimension to your life, well-being and so on. -- | :38:47. | :38:54. | |
Thrive. But isn't this for the rich and powerful? No, the message of the | :38:55. | :39:01. | |
book is for everybody, whether you are struggling to put food on the | :39:02. | :39:05. | |
table or at the top of the pyramid facing multiple demands on your | :39:06. | :39:08. | |
time. Because it is all about tapping into inner strength and | :39:09. | :39:11. | |
wisdom, where resilience comes from. The more challenging your life is, | :39:12. | :39:16. | |
the more adversities you are facing, the more important it is to | :39:17. | :39:20. | |
be connected with that strength. We see how many people are completely | :39:21. | :39:24. | |
destroyed by losing a job, by adversity, by struggling. Because of | :39:25. | :39:30. | |
money. But others are able to overcome their problems and | :39:31. | :39:34. | |
transcend them, and there have been multiples that is done, very much | :39:35. | :39:40. | |
about inner strength and resilience. -- multiple studies. | :39:41. | :39:44. | |
This is when you fell down and took a knock on the head. I collapsed | :39:45. | :39:49. | |
from exhaustion, and I saw how burn-out and stress are really there | :39:50. | :39:55. | |
around one, in the lives of millions of people. Here in the United | :39:56. | :39:59. | |
Kingdom, we see that stress is actually the primary cause of | :40:00. | :40:04. | |
disease. That is why now there is this mindfulness meditation | :40:05. | :40:07. | |
movement, even the Houses of Parliament, the Bank of England, it | :40:08. | :40:11. | |
is just amazing how people are recognising the need for something | :40:12. | :40:15. | |
different. Let's test this, the last time I saw you, you had a blackberry | :40:16. | :40:21. | |
in your hand and something else, how many devices? I have four devices, | :40:22. | :40:27. | |
but I sleep eight hours at night, I have many renewal times during the | :40:28. | :40:32. | |
day. I meditate every day, and I'm not talking about not working hard, | :40:33. | :40:36. | |
not achieving, not going for your dreams. I am talking about recovery | :40:37. | :40:41. | |
time, renewal time, all the things ancient philosophers talked about. | :40:42. | :40:46. | |
You have exponential growth with health post, is its do as I say or | :40:47. | :40:51. | |
do as I do? Do you make sure that people do not work too late? We have | :40:52. | :40:59. | |
e-mail rules, employees know that when they are off work, they are not | :41:00. | :41:04. | |
expected to be on e-mail. Not tweeting? When a car off work, they | :41:05. | :41:11. | |
are off work, period. Do you tweak as much as you used to? I tweaked | :41:12. | :41:18. | |
for me, but I don't tweet while I am off. -- tweet. That is the key to | :41:19. | :41:24. | |
everything I am saying. This is not some flaky Californian theory. This | :41:25. | :41:31. | |
is based on science. In the book, there are 55 pages of scientific | :41:32. | :41:36. | |
endnotes. If you are going to have any traction, you need to have big | :41:37. | :41:40. | |
global companies buying into this, because otherwise people will not | :41:41. | :41:44. | |
have the confidence to behave like that. There is a global shift | :41:45. | :41:50. | |
happening, this is happening in 11 countries, and in every country | :41:51. | :41:53. | |
different companies are doing different things. In Germany, | :41:54. | :41:57. | |
Volkswagen gives employees phones which turn off automatically at 6pm. | :41:58. | :42:05. | |
You say this goes for everybody, but it is particularly directed towards | :42:06. | :42:08. | |
women. Two women have a harder time in public life? -- do. Jill | :42:09. | :42:16. | |
Abrahamson, the first executive editor, female executive editor of | :42:17. | :42:20. | |
the New York Times, fired up the two years. In your view, fired for a | :42:21. | :42:26. | |
legitimate reason? Well, we don't know the full history of what | :42:27. | :42:29. | |
happened, but the language that was used around the ousting of Jill | :42:30. | :42:35. | |
Abrahamson would not have been used around the ousting of a man, you | :42:36. | :42:40. | |
know. That she was abrasive, difficult, difficult in managing a | :42:41. | :42:45. | |
newsroom. I think the language is very difficult when it is applied to | :42:46. | :42:49. | |
men and when it is applied to women, and that is something we need to | :42:50. | :42:53. | |
watch. At the same time, if we want more women in successful, top jobs, | :42:54. | :43:00. | |
we need to change the workplace. Is that actually realistic? Absolutely! | :43:01. | :43:05. | |
The top job presumably would be president of the United States, are | :43:06. | :43:09. | |
you telling me that if Hillary Clinton ran and won, she would | :43:10. | :43:12. | |
behave in any different way to Bill Clinton? Well, lots of ways she | :43:13. | :43:17. | |
might, but in terms of her administration, come on! Bill | :43:18. | :43:21. | |
Clinton is quoted in my book saying the most important mistakes I made | :43:22. | :43:27. | |
in life was when I was tired. He did not specify the mistakes, but if you | :43:28. | :43:31. | |
talk to people who served in his administration, they will tell you | :43:32. | :43:37. | |
it was chaotic. His longest serving health and human services secretary | :43:38. | :43:41. | |
told me that she had to sleep with her briefing books, because he would | :43:42. | :43:45. | |
be calling at one in the morning to ask questions about Medicare. That | :43:46. | :43:49. | |
is not necessary, that is not leadership. You do not need to run a | :43:50. | :43:54. | |
White House or any kind of government in a way that is chaotic | :43:55. | :44:00. | |
and based on the fight or flight. It is interesting, because the opposite | :44:01. | :44:04. | |
of that, I remember hearing from somebody you had been at a dinner | :44:05. | :44:07. | |
with George Bush, he used to eat at six o'clock at night and retired at | :44:08. | :44:12. | |
nine o'clock at night, not much good it did him! No, absolutely, retiring | :44:13. | :44:17. | |
early does not mean you are wise, but no question that we need to | :44:18. | :44:22. | |
redefine what successes, and how you tap into the wisdom that produces | :44:23. | :44:26. | |
good decisions. Look around, an enormous amount of leaders who are | :44:27. | :44:31. | |
very smart and not at all wise. Should Hillary Clinton run? I mean, | :44:32. | :44:39. | |
just as another woman talking about one woman, she should run if she can | :44:40. | :44:43. | |
do it in a way that does not involve her stressing out, as she did, and | :44:44. | :44:48. | |
collapse from exhaustion, getting a blood clot in her brain. , I mean, | :44:49. | :44:54. | |
it is important in a way that does not produce such incredible stress. | :44:55. | :44:59. | |
Breakfast at 7:30 tomorrow, get to bed! The Daily Mail, this shabby | :45:00. | :45:05. | |
whitewash, families furious as the Cabinet Secretary cooks up a deal to | :45:06. | :45:09. | |
keep letters and calls between Blair and Bush Sigrid. Kate Middleton | :45:10. | :45:17. | |
there, grimacing as she tastes scotch. -- secret. SNP denies | :45:18. | :45:25. | |
cover-up of the cost of separation. World outrage grows over women | :45:26. | :45:29. | |
condemned to hang on for falling in love. The Guardian, new doubt over | :45:30. | :45:33. | |
Scottish wealth, but the top picture is Andy Murray serving in the French | :45:34. | :45:36. | |
Open, he won in three straight sets. We thought, | :45:37. | :45:39. | |
as we had Billy Bragg here, we would make him sing | :45:40. | :45:41. | |
for his supper. We take you back in time, more | :45:42. | :45:45. | |
than 30 years, to A New England, # I was 21 years | :45:46. | :45:53. | |
when I wrote this song # I'm 22 two now | :45:54. | :45:56. | |
but I won't be for long # People ask | :45:57. | :45:59. | |
when will you grow up to be a man? # But all the girls I loved | :46:00. | :46:02. | |
at school # I loved you then | :46:03. | :46:04. | |
as I love you still # I don't feel bad | :46:05. | :46:10. | |
about letting you go # I just feel sad | :46:11. | :46:17. | |
about letting you know Not wall-to-wall sunshine, the best | :46:18. | :47:03. | |
sun will be around the coast, Fairweather cloud building up, a few | :47:04. | :47:05. | |
showers | :47:06. | :47:06. |