28/05/2014 Newsnight


28/05/2014

Liberal Democrats; prejudice poll; housing; cab wars; Maya Angelou; and Stephen Hawking predicts the World Cup. With Laura Kuenssberg.


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Transcript


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How much did Vince Cable know? Did he sail you down the river? A very

:00:07.:00:16.

bungled coup. Vince Cable's comrade crashes out of the Liberal

:00:17.:00:19.

Democrats. After his plot was foiled. How much did Dr Cable know?

:00:20.:00:24.

We'll ask a Lib Dem minister just what is going on. Sorry statistics

:00:25.:00:29.

suggest a growing number of us say yes to a question that was a taboo.

:00:30.:00:35.

We will be discussing - are you racist? My life ain't heaven, it

:00:36.:00:40.

sure ain't hell. I'm not on top, but I call it swell. If I'm able to

:00:41.:00:45.

work, and get paid right, and have the luck to be black on a Saturday

:00:46.:00:52.

night. Hey! No question, she knew how to live. Anglesey's celebrated

:00:53.:00:58.

voice falls silent. Need a lift? Taxi! An uber battle is brewing as

:00:59.:01:04.

London's drivers take on the new cabs on the block. The ones using

:01:05.:01:10.

phone apps to catch our ride. Our technology editor tries to work out

:01:11.:01:15.

what is fare. What more thing tonight. I'm Professor Hawking, on

:01:16.:01:24.

Newsnight tonight I will reveal my scientific analysis on how to win

:01:25.:01:31.

the World Cup in Brazil. Good evening. The attempt to get rid of

:01:32.:01:35.

Nick Clegg might not have been a very good plot, but it was indeed a

:01:36.:01:40.

plot. Tonight, it's not entirely clear precisely what part was played

:01:41.:01:45.

by Vince Cable, one of Clegg's most senior colleagues. Even if he wasn't

:01:46.:01:49.

holding the dagger, he did, at least, know about it. What did he

:01:50.:01:57.

know? Morning, sir. Polls ordered up by his long time friend, Lord

:01:58.:02:01.

Oakeshott, tested the waters for a Vince Cable-led Lib Dem party. The

:02:02.:02:07.

Business Secretary so beloved by activists, perhaps not quite trusted

:02:08.:02:10.

by colleagues. REPORTER: Mr Cable, did you know

:02:11.:02:13.

Lord Oakeshott was conducting these polls? He claims tonight, from

:02:14.:02:18.

China, he only knew part of what his old comrade was up to. Lord

:02:19.:02:24.

Oakeshott asked my election campaign manager if we wanted a poll done in

:02:25.:02:28.

my own constituency. We said, yes. It was a private, local poll.

:02:29.:02:34.

Nothing to do with national leadership. I was aware that he was

:02:35.:02:40.

conducting other polls around the country. I had absolutely no

:02:41.:02:45.

knowledge of, certainly not involved in any commissioning of the surveys

:02:46.:02:51.

done in Sheffield Hallam and Inverness. I criticised them very

:02:52.:02:57.

severely yesterday. Matthew Oakeshott described to me as a snake

:02:58.:03:02.

withen an agenda and money. He didn't just explode out of his party

:03:03.:03:06.

today. He felled up to having ordered polls in key constituency

:03:07.:03:08.

saying: -- fessed. He claimed Vince Cable

:03:09.:03:25.

was aware of what he was doing. Vince amended and approved the

:03:26.:03:29.

questionnaire, he said. At his request I excluded a question on

:03:30.:03:32.

voting intentions with a change of leader. That poll worried me so

:03:33.:03:38.

much, that I commissioned four more, in different types of constituency

:03:39.:03:43.

all over the country. He claims several weeks ago I told Vince the

:03:44.:03:45.

results of those four polls too. Despite the disruption, the Lib Dem

:03:46.:03:54.

leadership is far from sorry to see Oakeshott go. I know I won't be in

:03:55.:04:00.

politics forever, Matthew Oakeshott will be relieved! Well, just three

:04:01.:04:05.

or four more general elections to go, Matthew. Can they just shrug off

:04:06.:04:12.

this attempted coup? Even if it has failed, the angst may not just

:04:13.:04:18.

fizzle out. With us now is Baroness Kramer, Lib Dem Transport Minister,

:04:19.:04:21.

and former constituency neighbour to Dr Cable. Thank you for coming in.

:04:22.:04:25.

The first problem we have here is there are two differing versions of

:04:26.:04:29.

eef vents. Vince Cable says he didn't know about the poll Matthew

:04:30.:04:34.

Oakeshott commissioned in Nick Clegg's constituency. Matthew

:04:35.:04:38.

Oakeshott said he did, who do we believe in Vince has been

:04:39.:04:43.

categorical. They didn't commission the polls. He didn't know about the

:04:44.:04:49.

polls, he mentioned Sheffield Hallam and Inverness that is good enough

:04:50.:04:55.

for me. Vince made a categorical statement I'm comfortable with that.

:04:56.:04:59.

He said that Matthew's behaviour has been inexcusable. I'm sure you will

:05:00.:05:04.

ask him questions when he comes back from China. He is doing what he

:05:05.:05:09.

should do in China working for the British economy and trade. Matthew

:05:10.:05:13.

Oakeshott was evener in the party for many years and you are clear

:05:14.:05:17.

that his version of events is not the truth? Look. Matthew is someone

:05:18.:05:25.

I regard as a friend, if I had a personal crisis, I'm sure he will be

:05:26.:05:28.

there. When he gets a political idea in his head, he is impossible. You

:05:29.:05:31.

can't debate with him. You can't challenge him. He doesn't listen.

:05:32.:05:35.

I'm sure he has his own picture of events and what happened. All I can

:05:36.:05:40.

say is, Vince has been categorical. We in the party need to get on now

:05:41.:05:43.

with the job we have to do in There is Government. Another important

:05:44.:05:47.

point. If he is lying about it, did Vince Cable know that Matthew

:05:48.:05:51.

Oakeshott replaced the questions in the poll about whether or not the

:05:52.:05:55.

Lib Dems would perform better under Vince Cable's leadership? Looking at

:05:56.:05:59.

the statement that you described to me, that I looked at from Vince,

:06:00.:06:02.

when he talked about poll questions, he was talking about a poll in

:06:03.:06:07.

Twickenham. If somebody came back to me and said back in the days when I

:06:08.:06:12.

was a Richmond Park MP we would like to run a poll, I would discussion

:06:13.:06:16.

questions with them. As far as I understand that is where the

:06:17.:06:19.

discussion was. Vince's statement is good enough - Do you know if Vince

:06:20.:06:24.

Cable knew that Matthew Oakeshott was asking about him as a potential

:06:25.:06:28.

Lib Dem leader? I haven't talked to Vince. Knowing Vince, I very much

:06:29.:06:32.

doubt it. You look at the statements that Vince made before he left for

:06:33.:06:36.

China. He was very supportive of Nick Clegg. He understands what our

:06:37.:06:39.

job is for the next year. He has made the same kind of statements

:06:40.:06:43.

from China. At the very least, though, given Matthew Oakeshott and

:06:44.:06:46.

Vince Cable's closeness over the years, it tells us rather a lot,

:06:47.:06:51.

does it not, his close comrade, at times, believed that Vince Cable

:06:52.:06:54.

would be very interested in knowing whether or not the party would

:06:55.:06:57.

perform better under his leadership. That tells us a lot about Vince

:06:58.:07:02.

Cable's ambition, does it not? I am Rae found of Matthew Oakeshott, as

:07:03.:07:06.

well, they have been friends for many years. As I said earlier,

:07:07.:07:12.

Matthew Oakeshott has never hidden his dislike of Nick Clegg - Has he

:07:13.:07:16.

talked to you about wanting to be leader He has never spoke to me

:07:17.:07:20.

about being leader. He has spoke about the importance of being in

:07:21.:07:23.

Government. The challenges we face as a party over the next year. This

:07:24.:07:26.

is precisely the point. Isn't the case that the challenge for the

:07:27.:07:31.

party is in fact only honestly being confronted by Matthew Oakeshott. The

:07:32.:07:34.

Lib Dem leadership and ministers are putting their heads in the sand. He

:07:35.:07:38.

is the one saying - we have to confront this reality? We have to

:07:39.:07:42.

reflect over the last week, for sure. I mean, we had some very bad

:07:43.:07:47.

results. We lost some very good people. The main job that we've got

:07:48.:07:51.

is in this next year we have to make sure we continue to grow the

:07:52.:07:55.

economy. That is why Liberal Democrats went into coalition. I

:07:56.:07:59.

will be working on rail infrastructure, that is crucially

:08:00.:08:02.

important. With Nick Clegg as leader, as many of your activists

:08:03.:08:07.

believe, as many of your former councillors, former MPs, Matthew

:08:08.:08:10.

Oakeshott is not the only one who believes this. If no-one will listen

:08:11.:08:14.

to the case you are trying to make under Nick Clegg, surely Matthew

:08:15.:08:17.

Oakeshott is right? You can argue we need to make our case better. I

:08:18.:08:21.

would agree with that. We do need people to know, for example, that on

:08:22.:08:25.

the face of our manifesto we said we would cut taxes from the bottom. As

:08:26.:08:30.

a result, 24 million people this year have ?800 in their pockets.

:08:31.:08:33.

Apprenticeships. Do you think this would have happened without Liberal

:08:34.:08:36.

Democrats in Government? Will anybody listen to that if Nick Clegg

:08:37.:08:39.

is still in charge? Isn't what happened today, you shot the mess

:08:40.:08:43.

injury because you don't like the message? It's a responsibility for

:08:44.:08:47.

all of us to get the message out. This does not rest on one shoulder.

:08:48.:08:53.

We a party. We are like a family. Nick Clegg has led us through a

:08:54.:08:56.

unique time for the Liberal Democrats. It is not the time now to

:08:57.:09:01.

go all intro spective. We have a job to do in Government and a message to

:09:02.:09:05.

get out. That is what we need to get on with. Thank you very much for

:09:06.:09:08.

coming into the studio and giving us your message this evening. You might

:09:09.:09:12.

expect that a rise in the number of people of different creeds and

:09:13.:09:15.

colours living in Britain would be matched by a rise in tolerance. Not

:09:16.:09:20.

so, according to researchers, who have claimed today that Britain is

:09:21.:09:25.

becoming more racist. Their statistics suggest nearly a third of

:09:26.:09:29.

people admit they harbour some kind of prejudice. But have attitudes

:09:30.:09:33.

really hardened in recent years? We've been to Oldham, scene in 2001,

:09:34.:09:39.

of some of the worst race riots in memory, to see how people there feel

:09:40.:09:41.

about prejudice now. 10 years ago the National Front were

:09:42.:09:57.

coming in and causing problems. Gathering up in pubs. Things have

:09:58.:10:01.

got better, mate. They have got a lot better. I would say, you know,

:10:02.:10:10.

racism is very, very low. Very low. This area itself is full of Asians.

:10:11.:10:14.

We have got a lot of different people from different countries

:10:15.:10:17.

coming here as well. A lot of Romanians coming as well. Yeah,

:10:18.:10:22.

other than that, it's good. Everyone gets on about colour or race or

:10:23.:10:26.

religion or everything. Everyone just gets on. Maybe a few years ago,

:10:27.:10:31.

yeah, there was more racism, but no, we don't say that now. It is like

:10:32.:10:39.

you said, a mixed community up here. I have been in this country since

:10:40.:10:51.

2006, and I'm very happy here. I came here with an empty hand. I'm

:10:52.:10:56.

from Pakistan. I met different people here. I never see any kind of

:10:57.:11:04.

issue of (inaudible) It's more with the younger kids. The kids have

:11:05.:11:10.

trouble with orchids, but nothing major. They get chased, name called

:11:11.:11:27.

and that. Started punching you. Just calling you a "white boy" and that.

:11:28.:11:32.

Your dad went round to the house. Found out where they lived and went

:11:33.:11:35.

round to their house. It never happened again. We are Muslim,

:11:36.:11:44.

that's something we are proud of and we're happy with. We won't change

:11:45.:11:48.

that for anything. It doesn't matter what colour skin you are or

:11:49.:11:54.

anything. You can get called names because of the colour of your hair,

:11:55.:11:59.

don't you? It doesn't matter. The EDL, National Front, whoever they

:12:00.:12:02.

are, they have to remember, we are British, they can't take that us

:12:03.:12:06.

away from us. If our country ever went to war here, the UK, we would

:12:07.:12:10.

fight for our Queen, of course we would. I'm born and bred here. All

:12:11.:12:15.

my neighbours have been here since I've been born. Never been a

:12:16.:12:19.

problem. We have always got on. Send them curries around now and then. We

:12:20.:12:25.

have no problems. They're happy. Here with us now to talk about how

:12:26.:12:31.

attitudes to race have changed in the past generation are Girish

:12:32.:12:34.

Mehta, who came to this country in 1972, fleeing the regime of Idi Amin

:12:35.:12:40.

in Uganda and his daughter, Binita, who was born in Watford and is now a

:12:41.:12:46.

Conservative Cllr there. -- councillor there. How did people

:12:47.:12:50.

respond to you when you arrived in the UK? When we landed in Stansted

:12:51.:12:56.

we went to a refugee camp in Devon where we stayed for six months.

:12:57.:13:01.

There after we were in Lincolnshire for a few months and went to

:13:02.:13:04.

Glasgow, aided by a family friend. My earliest memories of Glasgow, we

:13:05.:13:15.

were in Pollock. My brother and I, we were nonwhite people in the whole

:13:16.:13:19.

school. You could imagine what a shock it was. There were no familiar

:13:20.:13:24.

faces, as such. The earliest memories of the school - this wasn't

:13:25.:13:30.

due to maliciousness, because we were different, we weren't sure how

:13:31.:13:34.

people would take us on. Was there malice towards you or curiousity or

:13:35.:13:39.

prejudice? More curiousity. I think it was definitely more curiousity. I

:13:40.:13:43.

don't think there was maliciousness there at all. In Glasgow, at the

:13:44.:13:48.

time, it was more sectarian. Protestant and Catholic more than

:13:49.:13:53.

racism. During then your childhood and then your youth, as you entered

:13:54.:13:59.

adulthood, did you though experience unpleasantness, racism as we would

:14:00.:14:03.

call it? There were always instances. We used to run to school

:14:04.:14:07.

and run back home. Not because of the maliciousness, the fear to see

:14:08.:14:12.

what would happen. We used to be taunted, that was quite a big thing

:14:13.:14:17.

at the moment. Taunted with the "B" word as such. As time went on, more

:14:18.:14:22.

people were actually coming into Scotland. More nonwhite people were

:14:23.:14:26.

coming in. Binita what was your experience like? You heard your dad

:14:27.:14:30.

talking about his experiences? Very different. Growing up and being born

:14:31.:14:34.

in Watford meant I was already going to school with a variety of

:14:35.:14:38.

different people from different backgrounds and very diverse

:14:39.:14:42.

environment. So, hearing that from my dad, and seeing his experience

:14:43.:14:47.

from his perspective, is a world away from mine. Obviously, in the

:14:48.:14:49.

same country, it's so different. research project which is carried on

:14:50.:15:00.

for years and years suggest we might be going back that way. Do you not

:15:01.:15:06.

recognise that? I don't agree with that at all. We are so much more

:15:07.:15:11.

tolerant in society now than when my dad first came to this country. It

:15:12.:15:16.

is scary for me to see the people thinking they would be more racist

:15:17.:15:20.

and I think the data is slightly skewed in that sense because it's

:15:21.:15:24.

not the reality. Do you think, though, some other nationalities now

:15:25.:15:29.

arriving in the UK, Romanians, Bulgarians, could be experiencing

:15:30.:15:33.

the same things? Would it economic climate as it is, and the economic

:15:34.:15:37.

situation, things changed slightly and I think it's more of the picture

:15:38.:15:42.

at the time rather than a trend because certain times, certain

:15:43.:15:47.

circumstances, sometimes it's a snapshot, and gives you a different

:15:48.:15:50.

picture of what the actual picture actually is in the country. Did you

:15:51.:15:54.

ever think your daughter would become a counsellor, for one of the

:15:55.:16:02.

main street that stream parties? Absolutely full to it that on

:16:03.:16:06.

integration, I don't know what is. When she's out campaigning, I don't

:16:07.:16:12.

think she actually comes across racism as such. I have never really

:16:13.:16:17.

come across racism at all in my upbringing especially on the

:16:18.:16:21.

doorstep. Meeting people when there are fears and concerns about

:16:22.:16:23.

immigration, it's never directed towards me. Do you think you've had

:16:24.:16:29.

your family life in Watford, a relatively mixed part of the

:16:30.:16:32.

country, where there are many people from different creeds and colours

:16:33.:16:38.

and cultures. Do you think that a patchwork exists in the country and

:16:39.:16:43.

in other that you chose to have stayed in Scotland, Devon, your

:16:44.:16:45.

experience could have been different? Yes, as the research

:16:46.:16:52.

shows, in the inner cities it a different picture whereas a up north

:16:53.:16:57.

or going to the country, because of ignorance and the fact people are

:16:58.:17:03.

not more familiar with the so-called non-English people, it becomes a

:17:04.:17:07.

bigger issue, possibly, I think. Thanks so much for coming in and

:17:08.:17:10.

talking to us. Thank you. The reassuring thing about bubbles

:17:11.:17:14.

is that, in the end, they burst. But the Bank of England is currently

:17:15.:17:17.

trying to decide whether it's better to pop what looks very much

:17:18.:17:21.

like a property bubble in some parts of the countre on purpose, or let

:17:22.:17:24.

the madness continue, hoping that As our economics correspondent,

:17:25.:17:27.

Duncan Weldon reports, it's not an If you, like a lot of people,

:17:28.:17:32.

enjoy talking about house prices, there is a fancy new phrase you can

:17:33.:17:44.

drop into the conversation. That's right,

:17:45.:17:47.

macro prudential regulation. Just rolls off the tongue,

:17:48.:17:55.

doesn't it? Like a lot in economics,

:17:56.:17:59.

this is a really complicated way The Bank of England might be

:18:00.:18:03.

about to make it harder One of the things we learned

:18:04.:18:07.

in the 2000s was trying to have control of the economy by interest

:18:08.:18:18.

rates isn't a good idea so if you're trying to calm the housing

:18:19.:18:21.

market, raising interest rates can So macro prudential regulation tries

:18:22.:18:24.

to either make it more difficult and expensive for lenders to do risky

:18:25.:18:33.

lending or they try and control the Since the recession,

:18:34.:18:36.

the Bank of England has been given a whole new toolkit of policies

:18:37.:18:41.

so what's in the box? The power to recommend that changes

:18:42.:18:49.

are made to Help To Buy. The scheme where the government will

:18:50.:18:52.

help people with small deposits by Or the bank could make it

:18:53.:18:55.

more expensive for mortgage If this isn't enough, then the

:18:56.:18:59.

bank can take more direct action. For example,

:19:00.:19:06.

putting a limit on the size of loans These tools might prove to

:19:07.:19:08.

be pretty controversial. Especially amongst

:19:09.:19:14.

those most affected. I don't think there's a need to

:19:15.:19:17.

restrict mortgage availability here at the moment but if the Bank of

:19:18.:19:28.

England felt that was appropriate at some point down the line, we'd have

:19:29.:19:32.

to be very careful that they didn't institute measures

:19:33.:19:36.

which did restrict housing supply. The government has said there are

:19:37.:19:37.

deep problems in this country and he was referring to

:19:38.:19:43.

the low levels of house building. He would be mindful that any

:19:44.:19:46.

Midwich I got the interest The reason the bank is considering

:19:47.:19:49.

using its new tools is that in some parts of the country, but by no

:19:50.:19:54.

means all, house prices are soaring. According to official figures, they

:19:55.:19:58.

rose by 8% in the year to March. To put that another way, in the last

:19:59.:20:02.

year, the average London property earned ?6.96 an hour and it worked

:20:03.:20:13.

24 hours a day seven days a week. To some economists,

:20:14.:20:17.

that sounds a bit, well, bubbly. The housing market never left

:20:18.:20:20.

the bubble. Between 97-2007 the level

:20:21.:20:23.

of house prices tripled. National statistics obscure

:20:24.:20:55.

as much as they reveal. For regional patterns,

:20:56.:20:57.

it's much more varied. In London, the average

:20:58.:20:59.

home now costs ?459,000. But in the north-east,

:21:00.:21:01.

it's just 148,000. These big differences mean the Bank

:21:02.:21:03.

of England could take more targeted So, for example, they helped

:21:04.:21:06.

by guarantee is currently available Cut that to 300,000,

:21:07.:21:10.

and it would still help people in the north-east but would be far

:21:11.:21:14.

less effective in London. The big rise

:21:15.:21:17.

in the capital is often thought of as being driven by what is known

:21:18.:21:19.

as the prime central London market. Cash buyers, some of them

:21:20.:21:23.

from overseas, have snapped up places like this currently

:21:24.:21:26.

on the market for over ?7 million. Through to the kitchen,

:21:27.:21:33.

under floor heating. New mortgage rules came

:21:34.:21:35.

into effect in April. Lenders now have to ask much

:21:36.:21:39.

tougher questions on spending habits to check the borrower can

:21:40.:21:42.

really afford the payments. Today Nationwide, one of Britain's

:21:43.:21:48.

biggest loan providers, said there was a slowing down in the

:21:49.:21:51.

marketplace particularly in London. Prices may well be rising, but

:21:52.:21:54.

activity, certainly in the last two or three months, mortgage values are

:21:55.:22:01.

beginning to decline from still a You normally find

:22:02.:22:04.

in a housing market cycle that London leads so normally price

:22:05.:22:07.

growth starts in central London because this is the engine of UK

:22:08.:22:32.

economy and you begin to see that So far, the ripple effect of rising

:22:33.:22:36.

central London prices haven't really But it can be felt in the suburbs

:22:37.:22:41.

and the surrounding commuter belt. One example is Walthamstow

:22:42.:22:47.

in the east of the city. It's not the kind of place that

:22:48.:22:50.

Russian oligarchs go shopping for a luxury pad but it tasted is

:22:51.:22:53.

said to have more estate agents than You do get your own entrance door

:22:54.:22:57.

at the front which is great. This is a two-bedroom

:22:58.:23:02.

flat that's just sold. This one went under offer

:23:03.:23:04.

at the weekend, Is that a big move over

:23:05.:23:07.

the last few years? We sold pretty much back to the same

:23:08.:23:11.

flat about four years ago in the same road, two-bedroom, first floor

:23:12.:23:17.

that achieved 165,000. On streets like this,

:23:18.:23:19.

prices have basically doubled So it's no surprise people

:23:20.:23:21.

are talking about a bubble. A bubble implies an market

:23:22.:23:25.

completely detached from reality. The simple fact is, lots of people

:23:26.:23:29.

want to move to places like this. And housing supply isn't keeping

:23:30.:23:33.

up with all that demand. Add in low interest rates

:23:34.:23:36.

and you got all the ingredients That might not be something to

:23:37.:23:38.

welcome, So if the issue is that

:23:39.:23:43.

we're not building enough, It's welcome that we have macro

:23:44.:23:52.

prudential regulation tools. What is unproven anywhere in the

:23:53.:24:01.

world is that using macro prudential regulation tools like restricting

:24:02.:24:05.

mortgage availability and so on has sufficient impact on its own

:24:06.:24:07.

without monetary policy working. Messing

:24:08.:24:11.

around with mortgage guarantees Macro prudential regulation

:24:12.:24:21.

might not be the catchiest phrase But it is the new big thing

:24:22.:24:25.

in central banking. It could take some demand out

:24:26.:24:29.

of the market but unless a supply picks up, over the longer run,

:24:30.:24:37.

house prices will keep on rising. Our obsession with house prices

:24:38.:24:45.

and wealth is one of the reasons why, according to one of the left's

:24:46.:24:49.

most prominent intellectuals, we are all, more or less,

:24:50.:24:51.

on the way to hell in a handcart. David Marquand has influenced

:24:52.:24:55.

politicians from Roy Jenkins to Gordon Brown

:24:56.:24:57.

over the past few decades. His latest book, Mammon's Kingdom,

:24:58.:25:01.

paints the UK as a greedy society fixated

:25:02.:25:04.

on cash that cannot go on as it is. I asked him earlier if we'd learned

:25:05.:25:10.

anything from the 2008 crash. I thought I had immediately

:25:11.:25:26.

afterwards but I'm afraid to think no, it didn't. The governor of the

:25:27.:25:30.

Bank of England is saying the same kind of behaviour patterns that

:25:31.:25:33.

existed before the crash scene to be coming back. You can tend in the

:25:34.:25:37.

book that here in Britain we are more ardent worshippers of Mammon

:25:38.:25:42.

than any other country. Why do you say that? I don't say than any other

:25:43.:25:47.

country but I say any other big country, big European country. We

:25:48.:25:53.

are not more ardent worshippers of Mammon than the USA and many other

:25:54.:25:57.

social ills that come from inequality in Britain are from the

:25:58.:26:05.

USA, and they are there in much worse form. I'm not saying nobody

:26:06.:26:10.

worships Mammon in Germany, France, Italy, but I do think we have been

:26:11.:26:13.

more ardent worshippers of Mammon than other large western

:26:14.:26:18.

democracies. What do you put that down to? I think it goes back quite

:26:19.:26:24.

a long way, actually. Indeed, I tried to say this in the book.

:26:25.:26:32.

There's been a sort of... The state and financial sector are big Siamese

:26:33.:26:37.

twins almost in this country in a way which is not true of other

:26:38.:26:40.

countries. Actually since the beginning of the 18th-century, but

:26:41.:26:45.

right back then, the foundation of the Bank of England at the end of

:26:46.:26:49.

the 17th century and the foundation of the national debt which is more

:26:50.:26:53.

or less contemporaneous, actually created a very curious kind of sin

:26:54.:27:00.

by a Swiss to use another pompous word, between the political elite

:27:01.:27:04.

and the financial elite. But the success of that sector has also

:27:05.:27:11.

brought enormous wealth to the country through the payment of tax

:27:12.:27:15.

revenues, which have been available for successive governments to spend.

:27:16.:27:18.

You can't really have one without the other. Well, you don't have to

:27:19.:27:24.

have this degree of the dominance of the financial sector and I think

:27:25.:27:29.

it's been very unhealthy. Also, it's true that a very large amount of the

:27:30.:27:36.

wealth that has been treated by the financial sector has been

:27:37.:27:41.

squirrelled away in tax havens and the avoidance of tax has been pretty

:27:42.:27:46.

remarkable, so I don't think we should think that we've been the

:27:47.:27:52.

nation as a whole has necessarily benefited very much from the

:27:53.:27:57.

dynamism and undoubtedly miss the financial sector. Successive

:27:58.:28:03.

politicians including from the left, and you are seen as an intellectual

:28:04.:28:06.

godfather to some on the left, having courage development in the

:28:07.:28:13.

city. How has that been allowed to happen? At any stage, having told

:28:14.:28:18.

politicians to stop it? I'm not in any party at the moment. I did have

:28:19.:28:22.

a curious flirtatious ablation shipped with Gordon Brown but it was

:28:23.:28:27.

about constitutional reform, not about finance. I think Gordon Brown

:28:28.:28:37.

was, in this respect, he was a disaster. He actually boasted, he

:28:38.:28:46.

said not just light touch regulation but unlimited touch regulation, and

:28:47.:28:59.

we were engaged in the period when Gordon Brown was Chancellor of the

:29:00.:29:07.

Exchequer, in a kind of competition with America to undercut the

:29:08.:29:08.

regulations that they had so that we would get a business in the city

:29:09.:29:08.

from Wall Street. Just briefly, would get a business in the city

:29:09.:29:09.

may, given your past record, Exchequer, in a kind of competition

:29:10.:29:09.

Lord Oakeshott someone you would have come across in your career.

:29:10.:29:12.

What you make of what has happened today? I like him as a person.

:29:13.:29:18.

Here's a bit of a bull in a china shop, actually. I've seen this

:29:19.:29:22.

happen before but never like this, and I think he's clearly blown it.

:29:23.:29:30.

When I was an MP in the 1970s, I thought Harold Wilson was a dreadful

:29:31.:29:34.

person. I don't now full that I think I was very silly and very

:29:35.:29:38.

young. I was involved in all sorts of plots to get rid of Harold

:29:39.:29:42.

Wilson. And it didn't do him any harm at all and it possibly

:29:43.:29:50.

strengthened him, actually. Thank you very much for talking to us.

:29:51.:29:53.

Thank you for having me. Now who would take on the London

:29:54.:30:01.

cabbie or, for that matter, Phone apps that allow minicabs to

:30:02.:30:04.

scoop up their fares now face a legal challenge to stop them

:30:05.:30:08.

operating. Newsnight has learned that London's

:30:09.:30:10.

taxi regulator. Transport For London,

:30:11.:30:12.

will tomorrow begin seeking the high court's opinion as to whether

:30:13.:30:14.

a minicab app is legal or illegal. What happens could affect

:30:15.:30:18.

the trade up and down the country. Here's our technology editor

:30:19.:30:24.

David Grossman. NEWS REEL:

:30:25.:30:30.

Minute cabs have begun to invade the streets of London. Taxi drivers

:30:31.:30:34.

think, blimey, they will be using scooters next! This isn't the first

:30:35.:30:38.

time that London cabbies have seen their livelihoods under threat from

:30:39.:30:42.

newcomers. These days, it's something more advance than a

:30:43.:30:47.

stretched Fiat. What has got the cabbies worried is uber. It's a car

:30:48.:30:52.

company that runs via a smartphone app. I can just jab a couple of

:30:53.:30:58.

buttons here and select a cab. I can see who the cab driver is. In this

:30:59.:31:02.

case, it's Ben. The car he's driving. It 's a Toyota, the

:31:03.:31:08.

registration number and even how far away he is. He should be getting

:31:09.:31:14.

here fairly quickly, according to this! Let me just check you look

:31:15.:31:18.

like your picture. I suppose that is you. Hello, Ben. Hello, David. Can I

:31:19.:31:27.

get in? London black taxis are an I con of London. I'm a Londoner. I

:31:28.:31:32.

love black taxis I'm sure they are here to say. -- stay. Transport of

:31:33.:31:43.

London welcome the use of smartphone apps. The Black Cab drivers were

:31:44.:31:49.

given two important protections. The first one, taxi! You can only do

:31:50.:31:54.

this with a Black Cab. If you want a minicab, you have to ring up the

:31:55.:31:57.

office and they will despatch someone out to you. Protection

:31:58.:32:04.

number two, that thing up there that you struggle to keep your eyes off,

:32:05.:32:09.

the meter. Only a licensed taxi is allowed to have a meter, with a

:32:10.:32:13.

minicab, you have to agree the fare in advance. According to the law, no

:32:14.:32:21.

minicab shall be equipped with a taxi meter. Which is defined as a

:32:22.:32:25.

device for calculating the fare to be charged in respect of any journey

:32:26.:32:28.

by reference to the distance travelled or time elapsed since the

:32:29.:32:32.

start of the journey, or combination of both. So how does Uber work out

:32:33.:32:39.

its fares? The driver hits the start button on his iPhone when we go. At

:32:40.:32:44.

the end he hits stop. When I get my bill for the journey, which is

:32:45.:32:48.

charged to my credit card, I can see it's based both on the distance

:32:49.:32:52.

travelled and the time taken. It it is therefore a meter, cry the London

:32:53.:32:57.

cabbies. It's, therefore, illegal. We haven't got any objections to

:32:58.:33:04.

Uber what so ever. What we have problems with is Transport for

:33:05.:33:06.

London not enfortsing the law. It's a meter as far as anyone is

:33:07.:33:11.

concerned. How can a device that measures, time, distance and

:33:12.:33:16.

calculates the fare not be a meter. The cabbies are planning a legal

:33:17.:33:20.

challenge and a protest which will, they say, bring thereoned a

:33:21.:33:23.

standstill on June 11th. Other cities in the world have had similar

:33:24.:33:29.

Uber-inspired demonstrations. Uber say this is is matter for

:33:30.:33:34.

regulators. The roll of Transport for London is to regulate the

:33:35.:33:36.

industry. That is really a question for them. We very much welcome their

:33:37.:33:41.

statement a few weeks ago welcoming smartphone apps in the private hire

:33:42.:33:45.

industry. I think it's important to know the intent behind that

:33:46.:33:50.

regulation is public safety. That is where Uber goes above and beyond.

:33:51.:33:55.

Newsnight understands as early as tomorrow Transport for London will

:33:56.:33:58.

commence legal proceedings to get the High Court to give a binding

:33:59.:34:02.

judgment as to whether Uber is legal or illegal. The hope being that will

:34:03.:34:05.

be enough to get the cabbies to call off their protest. Uber isn't the

:34:06.:34:11.

end of this disruptive technological journey. One of their biggest

:34:12.:34:16.

shareholders is Google, they announced they will begin building

:34:17.:34:22.

these driveless cars. If this project works, Uber, or something

:34:23.:34:27.

like this will power a driverless taxi revolution. Using cars that

:34:28.:34:32.

look similar to those old minicab Fiats. "My mission in life is not

:34:33.:34:38.

merely to survive, but to thrive. And to do so some passion, some

:34:39.:34:43.

compassion, some humour and some style." Anglesey probably described

:34:44.:34:47.

the way she lived her life bitter than anyone else will in the coming

:34:48.:34:52.

days as she is mourned. The American author of I Know Why the Caged Bird

:34:53.:34:57.

Sings died today. Tonight, artists, performers, even Presidents, are

:34:58.:35:00.

vying to pay tribute. With his, here's Stephen Smith. My life ain't

:35:01.:35:07.

heaven, but it sure ain't hell. I'm not on top, but I call it swell. If

:35:08.:35:13.

I'm able to work, and get paid right, and have the luck to be black

:35:14.:35:25.

on a Saturday night. Hey! They say write what you know. Anglesey had

:35:26.:35:31.

plenty to draw on. Most of it come by the hard way. Raised by her

:35:32.:35:49.

grandmother in the south. She was raped by her mother's boyfriend when

:35:50.:36:03.

still a child. It shocked her into a silence that lasted five years.

:36:04.:36:04.

During which she read and read. I remember never believing that whites

:36:05.:36:05.

were really real. White folks couldn't be people because their

:36:06.:36:07.

feet were too small. Their skin too white and see throughy. She was a

:36:08.:36:10.

singer and dancer and toured Europe. She had a spell as a journalist and

:36:11.:36:14.

then came the volumes of autobiography which made her name.

:36:15.:36:18.

Telling a story America had hardly heard before. By the 90s her work

:36:19.:36:29.

was heard in a presidential inauguration. History, despite its

:36:30.:36:34.

renting pain, cannot be unlived, but if faced with courage, need not be

:36:35.:36:50.

lived again. . I thought. She was eternal. I thought she would always,

:36:51.:36:58.

always be there. And the second thing was. It hurts so much that I

:36:59.:37:09.

have no credible, elegant, powerful, even interesting words to say what I

:37:10.:37:19.

feel about that. Maya Angelou told Jerry Paxman how she overcame her

:37:20.:37:24.

fear of death. The fear of death visited me so, so real, so palpable,

:37:25.:37:31.

at a couple of times in my late teens and my early 20s. Then somehow

:37:32.:37:39.

I lived through it. And came to the condition of admitting that I will

:37:40.:37:48.

die. Admitting that is incredible. Because it lib rates one.

:37:49.:37:54.

With us from New York is the novelist and professor of creative

:37:55.:38:00.

writing Tayari Jones and in the studio the poet and author, Ben

:38:01.:38:06.

Okri. To you, Tayari Jones, explain her significance, particularly to

:38:07.:38:15.

African-Americans? You know, Maya Angelou wrote her famous memoir, I

:38:16.:38:21.

Know Why the Caged Bird Sings in 1969. Keep in mind, in 1945, Richard

:38:22.:38:26.

White had written Black Boy which was said to be the definitive black,

:38:27.:38:34.

southern coming age during Jim Crow. 15 years later comes this amazing

:38:35.:38:38.

memoir of I Know Why the Caged Bird Sings. That is a woman's story. Her

:38:39.:38:43.

story was told in a way in the intro said, "a story that America hadn't

:38:44.:38:47.

heard" I think for African-Americans, for many ways, it

:38:48.:38:51.

was a story we had heard, but had not yet read. Even with that just

:38:52.:38:57.

the recognition of seeing one's self in print. She broke such a taboo in

:38:58.:39:03.

writing about her rape. Now, lots of people write memoirs and they talk

:39:04.:39:09.

about rape and sexual violence, but in 1969, she really broke ground.

:39:10.:39:14.

She opened the door so wide that younger writers, like me, don't even

:39:15.:39:18.

know necessarily that there was once a door there. I think that's what

:39:19.:39:23.

happens when trailblazers do their work well. We forget that there was

:39:24.:39:28.

ever a block there. I think that is one of the real significance of her

:39:29.:39:33.

legacy, but there are One of many. The big significance is her role in

:39:34.:39:37.

the civil rights campaign. It wasn't just her writing about her own life,

:39:38.:39:44.

but her political role? I mean, absolutely. I mean, she was good

:39:45.:39:52.

friends with Martin Luther King and Malcolm X. She wrote, but lived a

:39:53.:39:58.

life that was interested in transformation. She was a true

:39:59.:40:03.

citizen of the world. She lived in Cairo, lived in Ghana. I think her

:40:04.:40:10.

experiences growing up in the Jim Crow Southmead her curious about a

:40:11.:40:15.

larger world. She wasn't in exile, the way some of the others were in

:40:16.:40:22.

exile when they were abroad. She was just Wydening her community.

:40:23.:40:24.

Bringing others into the fold. All of which enriched her writing. Ben

:40:25.:40:30.

Okri, in terms of her writing, she wasn't universal popular with all

:40:31.:40:33.

authors. What do you make of what she achieved as a literary figure? I

:40:34.:40:39.

think she achieved something very significant. As you heard Tayari

:40:40.:40:48.

say. She didn't invent the bearing witness memoir, she certainly

:40:49.:40:53.

transformed it. She enriched it. She wrote a very lyrical, under stated

:40:54.:41:00.

pros that reflected very, very carefully minutely the details of

:41:01.:41:04.

African-American life in the early part of the 20th Century. She wrote

:41:05.:41:10.

carefully. She wrote with passion. And, heretic territory is the

:41:11.:41:17.

territory of the memoir. Of the autobiographicle writing. It's a

:41:18.:41:20.

powerful tradition in African-American writing, by the

:41:21.:41:25.

way. That is an area you have played with in your writing. What did she

:41:26.:41:31.

mean to your writing? To many of us, throughout Africa, and in England,

:41:32.:41:37.

she was a very inspiring figure. Because she spoke very eloquently

:41:38.:41:42.

about survival. Under very difficult circumstances. Survival with grace

:41:43.:41:47.

and forgiveness and understanding. She reached across in her writing

:41:48.:41:50.

and as a person to different communities. I remember once a very

:41:51.:41:54.

beautiful reading she gave, where she was talking about the love

:41:55.:41:59.

poetry of Lang son Hughes. She was concerned about bridging the gap

:42:00.:42:04.

across againeders. I think many people that I spoke today, they

:42:05.:42:08.

called me up, left message on my cell phone saying how deeply touched

:42:09.:42:12.

they were at her passing. She meant a lot to individuals who were aware

:42:13.:42:17.

of the difficulty of life. She trance figured this in her writing.

:42:18.:42:22.

Did she manage, through her writing, to bridge that divide between the

:42:23.:42:30.

genders? Absolutely. I mean, you may know she was very influential to a

:42:31.:42:36.

whole generation of even hip-hop stars. Tpau connected with her. She

:42:37.:42:51.

made a joke and called him Six Pack. She balanced art and commerce. She

:42:52.:42:59.

kind of felt like everyone's aunt, everyone who provided wise counsel

:43:00.:43:03.

and also who listened. You meet so many people who are every day

:43:04.:43:06.

people. Yes, she was friends with the stars, you can meet every day

:43:07.:43:10.

people at a book event. You say that you are a writer. They may say, do

:43:11.:43:16.

you know Dr Angelou? I would say, I met her a few times. They would say

:43:17.:43:22.

- I know her, she has been to my house. She connected with people

:43:23.:43:27.

across all kind of lines, she was a true citizen of the world. She never

:43:28.:43:31.

stopped growing, changing and learning. She understood the way we

:43:32.:43:37.

grow, we change, we learn is through connection with people across any

:43:38.:43:41.

barrier. OK. Tayari Jones in New York and Ben here with us in the

:43:42.:43:45.

studio. Thank you for joining us. He has solved some of the greatest

:43:46.:43:53.

mysteries of the universe. Stephen Hawking's turned his considerable

:43:54.:43:56.

brain power to one of the biggest unsolved puzzles. Why is the England

:43:57.:44:00.

football team never quite as good as its fans expect it to be? One of

:44:01.:44:08.

that benighted number, our reporter Jim Reed, went to hear what the

:44:09.:44:15.

Professor'S predictions of what will success mean or failure at this

:44:16.:44:22.

year's tournament. Heartbreak, missed penalties, shattered dreams.

:44:23.:44:25.

England fans are of course used to it all.

:44:26.:44:29.

COMMENTATOR: A red card for David Beckham. Now though our best-known

:44:30.:44:38.

scientists thinks he can help out. -- scientist. Professor Hawking has

:44:39.:44:45.

analysed every tournament since 1966 for the bookmakers Paddy power, he

:44:46.:44:50.

says he never bets on sports and has donated his veto charity. As we say

:44:51.:44:58.

in science... The bad news, England don't stand much of a chance, the

:44:59.:45:02.

heat will be a problem. Brazil should lift the Cup this summer. It

:45:03.:45:07.

is of course more complex than that. So we asked one of the world's most

:45:08.:45:11.

celebrated minds the big important questions you would expect from

:45:12.:45:13.

Newsnight. scorer this summer? I'm going to

:45:14.:45:27.

stay -- say Daniel Sturridge. You don't need to be a big

:45:28.:45:33.

mathematicians to work this out. If the scores once every 108 minutes,

:45:34.:45:38.

compared to Wayne Rooney, once every 144 minutes, he is in the form of

:45:39.:45:46.

his life and Wayne Rooney has never scored in the World Cup final.

:45:47.:45:58.

When you look at penalties, who should be taking England's penalties

:45:59.:46:05.

from mathematical point of view? A no-brainer. 100% record this season.

:46:06.:46:16.

Lampard has been consistent from the spot. And Gerard. The fifth spot as

:46:17.:46:22.

the one I worry about. Neither Wayne Rooney or Daniel Sturridge have good

:46:23.:46:26.

records despite their otherwise great attacks on goal. What are the

:46:27.:46:31.

chances of us beating Germany this year? The answer is not great, I'm

:46:32.:46:44.

afraid. I'm assuming you are referencing the war. We have won

:46:45.:46:49.

only 33% of games against countries we have officially declared war on,

:46:50.:46:54.

compared to 58% of those that we haven't. Maybe our opponents.

:46:55.:47:06.

Germany has more of a history. Professor Hawking was just 24, the

:47:07.:47:11.

last time England won the World Cup. That second victory still feels a

:47:12.:47:17.

world away. But then statistics never tell the whole story. Surely

:47:18.:47:21.

even the top minds get it wrong sometimes. Place your bets now.

:47:22.:47:27.

That's all we have got time for. Good night.

:47:28.:47:30.

Liberal Democrats; prejudice poll; housing; cab wars; Maya Angelou; and Stephen Hawking predicts the World Cup.


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