29/05/2014 Newsnight


29/05/2014

Chilcot inquiry publication now possible; Billy Bragg on Englishness; Arianna Huffington; British collusion with the Brazilian dictatorship; and Apple buys Beats. With Kirsty Wark.


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The Government and the Iraq inquiry have come to a deal

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which means the totality of what Tony Blair and George Bush

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said to each other in the lead-up to war will be forever secret.

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Instead, we will have gists and quotes

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Without the whole truth, will the inquiry be a sham?

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I'll be asking Tony Blair's friend Lord Falconer.

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UKIP won the Euro vote with a particular vision of England,

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and it's not one this man subscribes to.

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# Britain isn't cool, you know, it's really not that great.

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# It's not a proper country... Billy Bragg is here to argue

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with Peter Hitchens And as Brazil prepares to welcome

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the football fans to the World Cup, in shoring up the country's

:00:54.:00:58.

21-year dictatorship. TRANSLATION: I had effectively been

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disappeared, all the psychological pressure to destabilise me, I

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couldn't sleep, I did not know if it was day or night. It was day or

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night. Messing with someone's personality. -- it is a very

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powerful way of messing. Gists and quotes. That's what the

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Iraq Inquiry will be able to report of the communications

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and discussions between Tony Blair and George Bush

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in the run up to the Iraq War in a deal that has taken an age

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to hammer out. This may mean that the inquiry

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which Lord Chilcot said, in his opening statement,

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expected to report in 2010, But will it be of any use

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if the many conversations between the then British Prime

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Minister and the US president No, say the families of soldiers

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killed in action. I'll be talking to the former

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Lord Chancellor, Lord Falconer, Tony Blair's confidante

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then and now in a moment. No British document or British

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witness will be beyond the scope of the inquiry... No limits on what

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Chilcot could ask or to whom, but limits on how much we get to know.

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We may never see the promises Blair made to Bush on Iraq, we may never

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know what he committed to before asking Parliament or the public.

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More than ten years since the war began, five years since Sir John

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Chilcot's inquiry into what happened started, he has announced he will

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not be able to publish the full extent of crucial contacts between

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Blair and Bush. For some of the families of people killed, only

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getting part of the truth is not enough. We want to know the whole

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and the full reasons why we went into this very spurious war, which

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was after all a war of option, not necessity. So I want the full facts

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why my son died, not just the gist bid. The block on publishing

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documents is not just intelligence or military information, but Blair

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and Bushpolitically intimate communications, and one particular

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note written after a meeting between the two after a meeting at a ranch

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in Texas the year before the war. Blair's critics said he made a

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promise to go along with an invasion before he knew of it could be kept.

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I was saying, you can count on us, we will be with you, but these are

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the difficulties. As you see, the rest of the note is about all the

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issues and difficulties. So in a sense what I was saying to America

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is, look, and by the way this is how George Bush took it, I am absolutely

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sure, whatever the political heat, if I think this is the right thing

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to do, I am going to be with you. I am not going to back out because the

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going gets tough. After months of wrangling, the inquiry has announced

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it will publish what they describe as gists and quotes, requested from

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25 notes and more than 130 conversations between Mr Blair and

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President Bush. Potential gaps provided in the material have, they

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say, now been addressed, but some material has only been received very

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recently. There is also agreement to publish a small number of full

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extracts from Cabinet papers. The inquiry team has been able to say

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everything they have asked for, as well as hearing countless witnesses

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here, but government officials will have to agree precisely what is

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published. And nothing that suggests the views of President Bush will be

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revealed. Despite weeks and weeks of hearings, hours and hours of

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evidence, the final report was never going to be the full, pure,

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unadulterated truth. But this is so clearly a compromise between the

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inquiry and officials who are determined not to publish all,

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private correspondence of Tony Blair, and Americans reluctant to

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play ball. One source familiar to the process told me that it is as

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simple as the Americans saying no. If Tony Blair had some exchanges

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with George double you Bush, some of them should be in the public domain,

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but on the whole if you are now going to say to every world leader

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that any communication with the British Prime Minister is not

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confidential, they will stop talking to us. We may now say it was a

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terrible mistake, like the Afghanistan war, which still goes on

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as a terrible mistake, but at the time it was Tony Blair, it was me,

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Jack Straw, William Hague, David Cameron, taking that decision after

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lengthy debates, thinking about it and deciding that it was the right

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thing to do. There is no other truth. But for military families,

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without publishing the fullest version of events, what can this

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inquiry really achieve? I need to draw a line under this, and until I

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know the full truth, I cannot do that. And it will be an open sore

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until the day I die. Iraq is still grappling with the aftermath of war.

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11 killed yesterday, the level of violence is the highest in years.

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Our political legacy is still to be settled. But a less than explicitly

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complete version of events from the Chilcot inquiry may still leave room

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for both sides to choose their truths.

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A little earlier I was joined by Charlie Falconer,

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former Lord Chancellor and still close friend of Tony Blair.

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I started by asking him who the Iraq inquiry was for.

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It's for the public to see what happened

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in relation to decisions leading up to the Iraq

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and it's for the public to discover what the truth of the position is.

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I remember at the time of the discussion

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whether the inquiry would be public or private, you said very clearly

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that it needed to be public so the public would have confidence in it.

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Absolutely. Surely the idea that we will just have gists and quotes

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of the correspondence between Tony Blair and George Bush

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means that confidence will be undermined.

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because the inquiry have had all of the material for three years.

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They will be able to summarise what they've got, and what's more,

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in relation to the open hearings, remember when Tony Blair gave

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evidence in the inquiry, he referred to what most people regard,

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quite openly, with the consent of the inquiry,

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to the most sensitive parts of the correspondence.

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So I don't think there's any real sense

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that things have been kept from the public.

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Have you spoken to Tony Blair about this? Today, yes.

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Was he evincing the idea that it should be reported in full?

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Well, he's saying it's a matter for the Government

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and a matter for Chilcot and the Government to reach an agreement.

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He will accept any conclusion they have reached,

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he's not been consulted about the agreement they reached.

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He's expressed the view in the past that there should be

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some appropriate degree of confidentiality,

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which is obviously right, but in this instance,

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the question of what the inquiry can publish is a matter for them.

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But it's easy for Tony Blair to say he'll go along with the Government,

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that there's not going to be full disclosure.

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It's for the Government to make up their mind.

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They've got to balance the ongoing relationship

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with other heads of state against the openness of this inquiry.

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What is it in his correspondence? Have you seen it?

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I have, and I assume it's not the content of this correspondence,

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it is the fact of a British inquiry releasing information of this sort.

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Hang on, that means this Government is second guessing what might happen

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in the future, so therefore, at some sort about what the impact it might

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have an Anglo-American relations, people are not going to see the

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entirety of this correspondence, it is all supposition.

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They are going to know the substance of the correspondence,

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and they will have seen the critical parts quoted in the open hearings.

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You are repeating the idea that Tony Blair has made it clear that some of

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the most sensitive stuff has already come out in the public hearings,

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but if the public doesn't see the totality of the correspondence,

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it's fair to assume the public will be suspicious.

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Why should they trust politicians just now?

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Because in the past they feel they have not been able to.

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because it is not the politicians that will determine the gists.

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Chilcot and his fellow enquirers have had this correspondence...

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Actually, they've had it for three years, so they have had

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every opportunity to consider it, and they are independent.

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I don't think people think Chilcot and the other members

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of the inquiry are like politicians, they are independent people.

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But if they are independent people, you say the Government is making the

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decision the full correspondence should not be revealed.

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So Chilcott does not have a free hand in this, he's not independent.

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He would wish to release the whole lot, the Government have said,

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for reasons that they don't want to damage relations

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with America in the future, they have reached a compromise,

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and that was the compromise that has been made public this afternoon.

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So we are hidebound by the Americans, essentially.

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It is for us to decide, the Americans cannot make the decision,

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but a judgment has been made by the British Government,

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and Chilcot has reached an accommodation

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with the Government whereby they give us

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as much as they want in terms of gists.

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I am not sure it is an unsensible compromise.

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It is perfectly convenient for Tony Blair.

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either for Tony Blair or anybody else,

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because if the inquiry, which is independent, want to condemn him

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or anybody else, this agreement does not in any way prevent them

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from either condemning or approving or whatever conclusion they reach.

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What would you say to the families who are suspicious of all this?

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Who feel you have just said you saw nothing in that correspondence that

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you would feel would be damaging in any to Anglo-American relations?

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If it was up to you, you would reveal it.

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Why should the public have any confidence?

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Well, because they have got an independent inquiry

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with reputable people who are independent of the politicians

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who are going to make the judgments. Trust the inquiry.

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With a resolution to this issue, do you think

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I do, my judgment is there will be a report before the end of year.

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Lord Falconer, thank you very much.

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I am joined now by diplomatic editor Mark bourbon, first of all, Tony

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Blair now has nothing to fear, if he ever had. Well, I don't know. It's

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true to say I have been talking to contacts about what we can now

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expect, and what would be in these letters sent to people who were

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facing criticism from the inquiry. It is true, I am told, it will not

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be levelled at him as a charge that he manipulated the intelligence

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about weapons of mass destruction. Just like the foreign affairs

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committee, the intelligence and security committee, the happen

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inquiry, this one will not say that. But I am told that it will levelled

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charges of mismanagement against Tony Blair about the way he handled

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the politics and the way he was optimistic about what would happen

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in Iraq. But this is not just about Tony Blair, what are people saying

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about the report? I think it is inevitable, because of the emotions

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that Tony Blair is Vokes in people, for and against on this question,

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that it blocks out an awful lot of what the inquiry was meant to do,

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which was to look at how this very serious foreign policy step was

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taken, military step, intelligence, to analyse what was done wrong. Now

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I am hearing that dozens of people are going to get these letters. This

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includes not just politicians, Mr Blair and his cabinet members, but

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officials, intelligence people, senior armed forces officers, all

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facing criticisms. This is going to take a long time. The people who

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have been called to the inquiry or are reported on, what do they do

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with these letters? Is there an appeal? I believe they have a

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month, so there is a process, they have to put together the letters.

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This whole dispute has been about what they can quote from in

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justifying some of these criticisms that will be levelled. Could it mean

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the end of careers? A lot of these people are already out of government

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service or the military, or wherever they were at the time, it is 2003

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and the subsequent to that. They will get letters, they will have a

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chance to respond, and if the will get letters, they will have a

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chance to respond, and inquiry thinks that the response is

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justified, they might alter it, and it will go into the final report.

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People are saying that, before the end of the year that is realistic.

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If you want to be cool, you have to have Beats by Dr Dre on your ears,

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so Apple have taken it one step further today and have bought

:14:43.:14:45.

the whole company for $3 billion in their biggest acquisition ever.

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But distinctive and expensive as the headphones are, it's apparently

:14:49.:14:51.

the Beats' music streaming service, the biggest rival to Spotify,

:14:52.:14:54.

Here's Jim Reed with the story. A clever canny bet on the future or a

:14:55.:15:13.

sign of desperation? Apple's decision to either trendy

:15:14.:15:16.

electronics company Beats tells us something about where the whole

:15:17.:15:19.

entertainment industry might be heading. Its best-known products,

:15:20.:15:24.

range of fashion headphones, plastered with a giant logo. This

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pair of headphones. ?219.95. And by the way, they are really quite

:15:38.:15:45.

expensive. The deal will make multimillionaires of the founders,

:15:46.:15:47.

one of those the influential music executive Jimmy Ivy described the

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white headphones from Apple like sounding like mosquitoes. The Forbes

:15:55.:16:01.

list adjuster changed. It came out two weeks ago for them they need to

:16:02.:16:06.

update the Forbes list. The other, Dr Dre is seen getting into trouble

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boasting about the sale before it was signed off. The first

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billionaire in hip-hop. Many in the know say Beats's products seem to be

:16:19.:16:24.

lacking quality but they're not selling a device but lifestyle. Dr

:16:25.:16:31.

Dre has been in the game for 30 years. It's responsible for many

:16:32.:16:37.

rappers, and he's one of those people who mentors and changes the

:16:38.:16:42.

game constantly. Dr Dre says these are the best headphones to listen to

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music, people will take it seriously. Kids will take it

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seriously. He is the doctor. But this is clearly about more than just

:16:52.:16:55.

headphones and Alec tonics. It's about the future of the music

:16:56.:16:59.

industry itself. That electronic. Just like downloading has wiped out

:17:00.:17:05.

the record store, so new technology is threatening to take over in the

:17:06.:17:12.

same way. Apple's iTunes store still rules the market for online music

:17:13.:17:15.

but there are very worrying signs for the technology giant. Sales in

:17:16.:17:21.

the USA slumped by one quarter this year. Instead, younger customers are

:17:22.:17:26.

switching to a new breed of Internet streaming services where you pay a

:17:27.:17:31.

monthly subscription and listen to any track whenever you want on a

:17:32.:17:34.

phone or computer but you never own the music itself. It's very

:17:35.:17:40.

interesting because the notion that we no longer own any of our music,

:17:41.:17:44.

that there is no physical collection, too many of us, it seems

:17:45.:17:50.

extraordinary. We use to understand something about a person when it

:17:51.:17:53.

went into their house and saw what books and records they had and CDs.

:17:54.:17:57.

And you don't do that any more. Under this scenario, that all goes,

:17:58.:18:02.

and we are invisible except we are not big of that sort of identity

:18:03.:18:08.

shows up online. Beats runs one of the largest streaming services

:18:09.:18:11.

available in the USA but not yet in the UK for the instead of using

:18:12.:18:16.

computer algorithms it employs teams of human taste makers to music to

:18:17.:18:23.

listen to. But with just 250,000 paying subscribers, it is still much

:18:24.:18:27.

smaller than rivals like spot of five full cup with more than 10

:18:28.:18:32.

million worldwide. A dealer this size is attractive to Apple because

:18:33.:18:39.

it has such deep pockets full of the company had ?95 billion in cash just

:18:40.:18:44.

sitting in its account. These headphones have become a fashion

:18:45.:18:47.

statement and what's really interesting, I think, Apple is

:18:48.:18:51.

always managed to play both the culture side and the technology side

:18:52.:18:57.

and brought it together. It's understood the value and the power

:18:58.:19:01.

of that in the community and its strength is often been together

:19:02.:19:04.

technology to get out of the way in order for people to experience

:19:05.:19:08.

culture more directly. I think of this deal plays right into that. It

:19:09.:19:15.

might make sense on paper but this is still a gamble for the world 's

:19:16.:19:19.

biggest technology company. The success or failure of this deal

:19:20.:19:23.

could decide not just how Apple performs, but how the music industry

:19:24.:19:25.

looks in a decade 's time. UKIP's spectacular success

:19:26.:19:28.

in the European elections speaks to a certain view of the UK

:19:29.:19:31.

and its constituent parts, Nigel Farage has even offered to go

:19:32.:19:34.

head to head with the First minister In particular,

:19:35.:19:37.

UKIP represents an Englishness which, to the singer and campaigner

:19:38.:19:40.

Billy Bragg, is unimaginable. Here he is singing Take Down

:19:41.:19:43.

the Union Jack. UK. # It's really not cool that no.

:19:44.:20:02.

# It's not that great. # It's not a proper country. It doesn't even have

:20:03.:20:08.

a patron saint. # It's just an economic union. # It is past its

:20:09.:20:11.

sell by date. Well, I'm joined now by two very

:20:12.:20:16.

different types of Englishman. As is the author and Mail on Sunday

:20:17.:20:19.

columnist Peter Hitchens. You delivered a lecture tonight

:20:20.:20:26.

where you were talking about the notion of Englishness. Don't you

:20:27.:20:31.

think Britishness exists? It exists but is coming under attack from the

:20:32.:20:34.

idea of an independent Scotland or Devo Max Scotland. Before the

:20:35.:20:41.

independent referendum, the three main parties offer maximum

:20:42.:20:44.

devolution for Scotland. People in England are saying, why can't we

:20:45.:20:50.

have some of it? You would like to see a federal system? Personally, I

:20:51.:20:55.

would like to see assemblies in each of the English regions with the same

:20:56.:21:02.

powers as Scotland. The boat across Europe, particularly UKIP, it's a

:21:03.:21:05.

against globalisation and the way we deal with globalisation I believe is

:21:06.:21:12.

to have bringing localism to people. -- provoked. -- the vote. It's

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nothing to do with globalisation but with government. People living in

:21:24.:21:27.

its own country, running itself under laws which its own people are

:21:28.:21:31.

chosen. That's an entity which is not a country. It's dissolving as a

:21:32.:21:36.

country because so many people have been trying to dissolve it and

:21:37.:21:39.

there's strong pressure from the EU which likes country to be sliced up

:21:40.:21:43.

into regions and smaller parts before it swallows them up. That's

:21:44.:21:48.

what's behind the destruction of the union. The European Union's

:21:49.:21:52.

inability to tolerate other federations on its territory. The

:21:53.:21:57.

idea of England to you, is it something you are dear to? No, I've

:21:58.:22:04.

always tried to defend the idea of Britain -- you adhere to. The

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problem is that, because England has been under attack from within, for

:22:14.:22:22.

many people in Britain, who didn't wanted to continue, who wanted to

:22:23.:22:25.

dissolve it, they have used nationalism to do it. The problem

:22:26.:22:30.

for the English if they are not in the driving seat of these forces.

:22:31.:22:36.

The Scottish eye in the driving seat for devolution. The EU are in the

:22:37.:22:41.

driving seat for globalisation, so the British state, England is a

:22:42.:22:45.

country, written does another patron saint, football team, but England is

:22:46.:22:49.

a country which has allowed its identity to be wrapped in the union

:22:50.:22:56.

Jack since the glorious Revolution. We have got to pick up the threads

:22:57.:23:01.

of Englishness. You say for George and the Dragon? They are different

:23:02.:23:07.

traditions in England. If people see the flag of St George on the back of

:23:08.:23:10.

a white minivan, they are immediately taken opinion. You never

:23:11.:23:16.

say that with a Welsh flag or St Andrew? You have tried to reclaim

:23:17.:23:24.

Englishness? From home? From whom? There is an element within UKIP,

:23:25.:23:33.

little England. The other day factor English National party now. A lot of

:23:34.:23:38.

people in England are puzzled by the fact for some reason the other

:23:39.:23:42.

nations of the UK seem to want to tear themselves away and declare

:23:43.:23:45.

loyalty to somebody else. Scotland isn't going to be independent.

:23:46.:23:52.

Ireland will not be independent. Northern Ireland will not be

:23:53.:23:54.

independent when it leaves, they will be provinces of the EU. Instead

:23:55.:23:59.

of going to Brussels to London, they will go direct. It's barely possible

:24:00.:24:04.

for the UK to be a sovereign country any more. For these other ones do it

:24:05.:24:10.

is beyond. I don't understand how you can set the... -- set of their

:24:11.:24:20.

and demand self-determination cash set there. --

:24:21.:24:32.

I think Scotland has more in common with England. That's up to the

:24:33.:24:40.

people of Scotland to say not you. One of the reasons why Scotland is

:24:41.:24:46.

likely I think to leave totally or through Devo Max is because of the

:24:47.:24:51.

feebleness of the British response. Whole idea of unionism has lost all

:24:52.:24:55.

force because the main party which was most do defend it has become a

:24:56.:24:59.

European party. The Conservative Party ought to have been defending

:25:00.:25:05.

the union. And the Labour Party. How can you defend the British UK whilst

:25:06.:25:11.

simultaneously campaigning for the EU? They are viable entities. The

:25:12.:25:16.

Scots Apple for self-determination is a response to globalisation, the

:25:17.:25:22.

supranational capitalism which is manifested in the city of London.

:25:23.:25:27.

Are you suggesting people in Scotland are not for the idea of the

:25:28.:25:31.

European Union? Not at all. I'm suggesting there are no longer

:25:32.:25:36.

willing to allow the market to solve all the problems that society

:25:37.:25:40.

presents. There's that dogma we've had since the years of Thatcherism.

:25:41.:25:46.

It wasn't away by new Labour. You are mixing of two different things

:25:47.:25:50.

for the European Union imposes globalisation on the market and its

:25:51.:25:54.

members in a ruthless fashion. If you think Scotland will escape that

:25:55.:25:58.

by leaving the UK, you are by much mistaken. Let's be clear, it seems

:25:59.:26:04.

to me, what the people that want a separate Scotland are saying, they

:26:05.:26:07.

want it within the European Union. They may not get it. It is what is

:26:08.:26:14.

fundamentally made practically possible. Before then, only a token

:26:15.:26:19.

independence move would have been impossible which would have been a

:26:20.:26:27.

dependent... I totally disagree. The public has 100% independent and

:26:28.:26:30.

Scotland is just as viable as the Irish Republic. The Irish Republic

:26:31.:26:36.

didn't attain it until it joined Europe and broke away from Britain.

:26:37.:26:41.

That's when it became serious. Before that, it'd been a token

:26:42.:26:46.

independence. Let's look to the future, the idea of a regional

:26:47.:26:52.

assembly, a federalism, where England is reborn as a different

:26:53.:26:59.

entity. Once that starts, who knows? I could set myself up, by a large

:27:00.:27:04.

jumper and grow an enormous beard and become a Cornish nationalist and

:27:05.:27:07.

subsidies and money would flow towards me. All kinds of things will

:27:08.:27:13.

happen to England once the UK ceases to exists. All kinds of nationalism

:27:14.:27:18.

to become possible. All of them will ultimately be provinces of the EU

:27:19.:27:20.

and therefore not independent at all. It's a Morris dancing, it's not

:27:21.:27:26.

a real country, a real country is people living on its own territory

:27:27.:27:31.

making its own laws. That's not what any of these pledges will be. If

:27:32.:27:35.

Nigel Farage more in touch with England and you are? He's in touch

:27:36.:27:42.

with a certain type of England. A lot of people voted for him. People

:27:43.:27:49.

were voting for him, the discontent of globalisation. For many people,

:27:50.:27:52.

globalisation is intangible but the EU, it enforces globalisation, and

:27:53.:27:58.

gives Google the opportunity to talk out against it. We need to reform

:27:59.:28:03.

the EU so it becomes more less about national capitalism. It is not able

:28:04.:28:09.

to be reformed. Thank you both very much indeed. Billy Bragg will play

:28:10.:28:15.

as out tonight. You will have to do is find out what song he is playing.

:28:16.:28:18.

Brazil will soon be the centre of the football-loving world.

:28:19.:28:21.

A country famous for producing one of the best

:28:22.:28:23.

But what has been forgotten by many is that at the height

:28:24.:28:28.

of Pele's stellar career, Brazil was a military dictatorship.

:28:29.:28:30.

President Dilma Rouseff, who was herself imprisoned and tortured,

:28:31.:28:32.

set up a Truth Commission two years ago, and now that Commission has

:28:33.:28:36.

produced evidence that makes uncomfortable reading for Britain.

:28:37.:28:38.

The world's spotlight is on Brazil, football the popular obsession.

:28:39.:29:03.

But here there is now a new fascination with the past

:29:04.:29:06.

and the decades of military dictatorship.

:29:07.:29:11.

more about the forgotten, dark side of Brazil.

:29:12.:29:17.

democratically elected left-wing government in 1964.

:29:18.:29:31.

The fear was of Soviet expansion after Cuba's Communist revolution.

:29:32.:29:39.

There followed 21 years of dictatorship.

:29:40.:29:46.

We've found compelling evidence that Britain not only welcomed the regime

:29:47.:29:49.

but actively collaborated with the generals.

:29:50.:29:56.

Torture was the generals' main tool of repression.

:29:57.:29:59.

called the Young People's Popular Uprising.

:30:00.:30:04.

They're now tracking down the torturers and publicly shaming them.

:30:05.:30:09.

Hundreds died or disappeared during military rule.

:30:10.:30:14.

but many were young students, union leaders or journalists.

:30:15.:30:20.

were subjected to extreme physical violence before they were killed.

:30:21.:30:26.

But from the early 1970s, things changed.

:30:27.:30:29.

Survivors speak of a new form of psychological torture,

:30:30.:30:32.

a method that came to be called the English system.

:30:33.:30:39.

The hub of the regime's torture apparatus

:30:40.:30:41.

inside the headquarters of the military police.

:30:42.:30:46.

Alvaro Caldas was a journalist and member of a militant group.

:30:47.:30:52.

He was brought here, severely beaten and tortured with electric shocks.

:30:53.:30:57.

Three years later, he had given up politics,

:30:58.:31:00.

but still he was rearrested and brought back.

:31:01.:31:06.

TRANSLATION: I was in the same place,

:31:07.:31:10.

but I noticed there were marked differences.

:31:11.:31:13.

and the smell made me feel really sick.

:31:14.:31:19.

and there was this sound which alternated loud and soft.

:31:20.:31:26.

When I was questioned, I always had to wear a hood.

:31:27.:31:30.

All this psychological pressure to destabilise me.

:31:31.:31:36.

I couldn't sleep, I didn't know if it was day or night.

:31:37.:31:39.

It's a very powerful way of messing with someone's personality.

:31:40.:31:44.

If I had been there for two weeks or a month, I would have gone mad.

:31:45.:31:54.

This frail old man was once a notorious torturer.

:31:55.:31:58.

Colonel Paolo Malhaes came to give evidence

:31:59.:32:00.

unrepentant for his record of killing and mutilation of victims.

:32:01.:32:09.

the special cell in Rio was based on an idea learned in the UK.

:32:10.:32:32.

We found out that in a private conversation with the prosecutor,

:32:33.:32:36.

the Colonel had admitted he himself had been to Britain.

:32:37.:32:41.

was killed in a suspicious burglary at his home.

:32:42.:32:47.

Buried with him are the details of exactly what he learned.

:32:48.:32:50.

It's likely to have been the controversial stress techniques

:32:51.:32:53.

that the British trained agents of the Brazilian military?

:32:54.:33:02.

Well, we've come to see a man who actually interviewed many

:33:03.:33:05.

of the highest ranking generals while they were still alive.

:33:06.:33:12.

Are you convinced, from your interviews,

:33:13.:33:15.

that there was collaboration between the British and the Brazilian army?

:33:16.:33:21.

Definitely. Why would they mention this?

:33:22.:33:24.

Why were they looking abroad to learn how to interrogate people?

:33:25.:33:28.

My guess, based on what I've read, what I've heard,

:33:29.:33:33.

is that their simple brute techniques were not working.

:33:34.:33:41.

several generals told him they'd sent officers to London.

:33:42.:33:46.

One said, "The Americans teach, but the English are masters

:33:47.:33:49.

in teaching how to wrench confessions under pressure,

:33:50.:33:52.

by torture, in all ways. England is the model of democracy.

:33:53.:33:55.

They give courses for their friends."

:33:56.:34:00.

The head of the Rio Truth Commission is under pressure

:34:01.:34:03.

Brazilians have long known America paid for and taught repression.

:34:04.:34:09.

It's been a revelation here that Britain was also involved.

:34:10.:34:15.

to hear that a democracy which is so important,

:34:16.:34:22.

so established, so old, collaborated with the dictatorship.

:34:23.:34:30.

We then tracked down a former leader of a police death squad.

:34:31.:34:33.

He couldn't come to Rio because of threats to his life.

:34:34.:34:38.

It's alleged that Claudio Guerra killed up to 100 people.

:34:39.:34:42.

Now he's found God and works as a Christian pastor.

:34:43.:34:47.

who were teaching interrogation techniques in Brazil.

:34:48.:34:56.

TRANSLATION: I had contacts with two,

:34:57.:34:59.

The one in Rio stayed at the Copacabana Palace.

:35:00.:35:08.

How did you know they were English agents?

:35:09.:35:13.

Because we knew the American agents from the CIA.

:35:14.:35:23.

The Americans spoke Spanish, they were all Cubans.

:35:24.:35:26.

so you could tell they were not Americans.

:35:27.:35:35.

And when they were teaching, they said the techniques

:35:36.:35:39.

were used in Ireland and had given good results.

:35:40.:35:50.

Britain's interrogation methods were widely admired.

:35:51.:35:53.

It's known from documents in the national archives in Kew

:35:54.:35:56.

that they were also exported to allies.

:35:57.:36:02.

We've discovered evidence that Brazil was one of them.

:36:03.:36:05.

to Brazil adopting acceptable standards of interrogation

:36:06.:36:13.

of the kind permitted in Northern Ireland,

:36:14.:36:15.

or the commander of the first army in Rio describing

:36:16.:36:18.

the new techniques as taking a leaf out of the British book.

:36:19.:36:23.

Then we found this 1972 letter from the British ambassador,

:36:24.:36:27.

There is a reference to the adoption by the Brazilians

:36:28.:36:33.

of more sophisticated methods of interrogation.

:36:34.:36:35.

"As you know, I think they have in the past

:36:36.:36:38.

been influenced by suggestions and advice emanating from us."

:36:39.:36:42.

In the confidential letter on torture...

:36:43.:36:46.

Sir Alan Munro was a diplomat in Brazil just afterwards.

:36:47.:36:50.

We showed him the ambassador's letter.

:36:51.:36:52.

He said he personally had no knowledge of British collaboration.

:36:53.:36:57.

If the Brazilians were looking at techniques, if you like,

:36:58.:37:01.

of interrogation used by British authorities,

:37:02.:37:04.

would have been the early years of the Troubles in Northern Ireland,

:37:05.:37:12.

well, this would have been undertaken, I would say,

:37:13.:37:15.

under some Brazilian initiative of inquiry.

:37:16.:37:19.

And to the extent that it might help to reduce

:37:20.:37:22.

the most brutal methods which had, in some cases, been employed,

:37:23.:37:28.

well then, it would be a step in the right direction.

:37:29.:37:36.

the idea that Britain helped train the torturers

:37:37.:37:41.

was not a step in the right direction.

:37:42.:37:43.

colluding with the oppressive regime,

:37:44.:37:49.

a regime which still hasn't faced justice.

:37:50.:37:52.

In a written response, the Foreign Office told us that it does

:37:53.:37:56.

not comment on the work or documents of previous administrations.

:37:57.:38:00.

Reading Ariana Huffington's CV is so exhausting

:38:01.:38:02.

I had to lie down in the Newsnight office for a few minutes.

:38:03.:38:06.

Chair, president and editor-in chief of the Huff Post Media Group,

:38:07.:38:09.

author of 14 books, she serves on several boards,

:38:10.:38:12.

including that of the main Spanish daily paper and its parent company,

:38:13.:38:19.

the Committee to Protect Journalists and so it goes on.

:38:20.:38:24.

But now she's admitted she's exhausted too

:38:25.:38:26.

your success isn't dependent on money and power,

:38:27.:38:32.

which for the vast massive majority of the population it probably isn't.

:38:33.:38:36.

Arianna Huffington, at the bases of gists and quotes, you are saying

:38:37.:38:46.

there has to be a third dimension to your life, well-being and so on. --

:38:47.:38:54.

Thrive. But isn't this for the rich and powerful? No, the message of the

:38:55.:39:01.

book is for everybody, whether you are struggling to put food on the

:39:02.:39:05.

table or at the top of the pyramid facing multiple demands on your

:39:06.:39:08.

time. Because it is all about tapping into inner strength and

:39:09.:39:11.

wisdom, where resilience comes from. The more challenging your life is,

:39:12.:39:16.

the more adversities you are facing, the more important it is to

:39:17.:39:20.

be connected with that strength. We see how many people are completely

:39:21.:39:24.

destroyed by losing a job, by adversity, by struggling. Because of

:39:25.:39:30.

money. But others are able to overcome their problems and

:39:31.:39:34.

transcend them, and there have been multiples that is done, very much

:39:35.:39:40.

about inner strength and resilience. -- multiple studies.

:39:41.:39:44.

This is when you fell down and took a knock on the head. I collapsed

:39:45.:39:49.

from exhaustion, and I saw how burn-out and stress are really there

:39:50.:39:55.

around one, in the lives of millions of people. Here in the United

:39:56.:39:59.

Kingdom, we see that stress is actually the primary cause of

:40:00.:40:04.

disease. That is why now there is this mindfulness meditation

:40:05.:40:07.

movement, even the Houses of Parliament, the Bank of England, it

:40:08.:40:11.

is just amazing how people are recognising the need for something

:40:12.:40:15.

different. Let's test this, the last time I saw you, you had a blackberry

:40:16.:40:21.

in your hand and something else, how many devices? I have four devices,

:40:22.:40:27.

but I sleep eight hours at night, I have many renewal times during the

:40:28.:40:32.

day. I meditate every day, and I'm not talking about not working hard,

:40:33.:40:36.

not achieving, not going for your dreams. I am talking about recovery

:40:37.:40:41.

time, renewal time, all the things ancient philosophers talked about.

:40:42.:40:46.

You have exponential growth with health post, is its do as I say or

:40:47.:40:51.

do as I do? Do you make sure that people do not work too late? We have

:40:52.:40:59.

e-mail rules, employees know that when they are off work, they are not

:41:00.:41:04.

expected to be on e-mail. Not tweeting? When a car off work, they

:41:05.:41:11.

are off work, period. Do you tweak as much as you used to? I tweaked

:41:12.:41:18.

for me, but I don't tweet while I am off. -- tweet. That is the key to

:41:19.:41:24.

everything I am saying. This is not some flaky Californian theory. This

:41:25.:41:31.

is based on science. In the book, there are 55 pages of scientific

:41:32.:41:36.

endnotes. If you are going to have any traction, you need to have big

:41:37.:41:40.

global companies buying into this, because otherwise people will not

:41:41.:41:44.

have the confidence to behave like that. There is a global shift

:41:45.:41:50.

happening, this is happening in 11 countries, and in every country

:41:51.:41:53.

different companies are doing different things. In Germany,

:41:54.:41:57.

Volkswagen gives employees phones which turn off automatically at 6pm.

:41:58.:42:05.

You say this goes for everybody, but it is particularly directed towards

:42:06.:42:08.

women. Two women have a harder time in public life? -- do. Jill

:42:09.:42:16.

Abrahamson, the first executive editor, female executive editor of

:42:17.:42:20.

the New York Times, fired up the two years. In your view, fired for a

:42:21.:42:26.

legitimate reason? Well, we don't know the full history of what

:42:27.:42:29.

happened, but the language that was used around the ousting of Jill

:42:30.:42:35.

Abrahamson would not have been used around the ousting of a man, you

:42:36.:42:40.

know. That she was abrasive, difficult, difficult in managing a

:42:41.:42:45.

newsroom. I think the language is very difficult when it is applied to

:42:46.:42:49.

men and when it is applied to women, and that is something we need to

:42:50.:42:53.

watch. At the same time, if we want more women in successful, top jobs,

:42:54.:43:00.

we need to change the workplace. Is that actually realistic? Absolutely!

:43:01.:43:05.

The top job presumably would be president of the United States, are

:43:06.:43:09.

you telling me that if Hillary Clinton ran and won, she would

:43:10.:43:12.

behave in any different way to Bill Clinton? Well, lots of ways she

:43:13.:43:17.

might, but in terms of her administration, come on! Bill

:43:18.:43:21.

Clinton is quoted in my book saying the most important mistakes I made

:43:22.:43:27.

in life was when I was tired. He did not specify the mistakes, but if you

:43:28.:43:31.

talk to people who served in his administration, they will tell you

:43:32.:43:37.

it was chaotic. His longest serving health and human services secretary

:43:38.:43:41.

told me that she had to sleep with her briefing books, because he would

:43:42.:43:45.

be calling at one in the morning to ask questions about Medicare. That

:43:46.:43:49.

is not necessary, that is not leadership. You do not need to run a

:43:50.:43:54.

White House or any kind of government in a way that is chaotic

:43:55.:44:00.

and based on the fight or flight. It is interesting, because the opposite

:44:01.:44:04.

of that, I remember hearing from somebody you had been at a dinner

:44:05.:44:07.

with George Bush, he used to eat at six o'clock at night and retired at

:44:08.:44:12.

nine o'clock at night, not much good it did him! No, absolutely, retiring

:44:13.:44:17.

early does not mean you are wise, but no question that we need to

:44:18.:44:22.

redefine what successes, and how you tap into the wisdom that produces

:44:23.:44:26.

good decisions. Look around, an enormous amount of leaders who are

:44:27.:44:31.

very smart and not at all wise. Should Hillary Clinton run? I mean,

:44:32.:44:39.

just as another woman talking about one woman, she should run if she can

:44:40.:44:43.

do it in a way that does not involve her stressing out, as she did, and

:44:44.:44:48.

collapse from exhaustion, getting a blood clot in her brain. , I mean,

:44:49.:44:54.

it is important in a way that does not produce such incredible stress.

:44:55.:44:59.

Breakfast at 7:30 tomorrow, get to bed! The Daily Mail, this shabby

:45:00.:45:05.

whitewash, families furious as the Cabinet Secretary cooks up a deal to

:45:06.:45:09.

keep letters and calls between Blair and Bush Sigrid. Kate Middleton

:45:10.:45:17.

there, grimacing as she tastes scotch. -- secret. SNP denies

:45:18.:45:25.

cover-up of the cost of separation. World outrage grows over women

:45:26.:45:29.

condemned to hang on for falling in love. The Guardian, new doubt over

:45:30.:45:33.

Scottish wealth, but the top picture is Andy Murray serving in the French

:45:34.:45:36.

Open, he won in three straight sets. We thought,

:45:37.:45:39.

as we had Billy Bragg here, we would make him sing

:45:40.:45:41.

for his supper. We take you back in time, more

:45:42.:45:45.

than 30 years, to A New England, # I was 21 years

:45:46.:45:53.

when I wrote this song # I'm 22 two now

:45:54.:45:56.

but I won't be for long # People ask

:45:57.:45:59.

when will you grow up to be a man? # But all the girls I loved

:46:00.:46:02.

at school # I loved you then

:46:03.:46:04.

as I love you still # I don't feel bad

:46:05.:46:10.

about letting you go # I just feel sad

:46:11.:46:17.

about letting you know Not wall-to-wall sunshine, the best

:46:18.:47:03.

sun will be around the coast, Fairweather cloud building up, a few

:47:04.:47:05.

showers

:47:06.:47:06.

Chilcot inquiry publication now possible; Billy Bragg on Englishness; Arianna Huffington; British collusion with the Brazilian dictatorship; and Apple buys Beats. With Kirsty Wark.


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