27/05/2014 Newsnight


27/05/2014

EU leaders consider the aftermath of the European elections, the latest on the kidnapped Nigerian girls and protecting the Awa community in Brazil. With Jeremy Paxman.


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Transcript


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The leaders of the European Union are meeting tonight in the aftermath

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of an election which saw many of their citizens blow the institution

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a resounding raspberry. But are they listening? Well, you would like to

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think so, but there are signs tonight that plenty want to carry on

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regardless. Popular capitalism is a crusade, a crusade to franchise the

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many in the economic life of Britain. Oh yes? Does capitalism

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have to be like this? Is there another way, way to find of creating

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an inclusive capitalism? The boss of John Lewis believes so.

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Got a million to invest? Why not buy Tracey Emin's bed? We will talk to

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her about the nuttiness of the art market and whether she has got any

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better at making the bed. And Justin Rowlatt joins the

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Brazilian forces taking measures to try protecting indigenous peoples

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from the predations of the modern world. The officers decide there is

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only one thing for it. She is going to burn it down.

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Oh dear, what do we do now? It would have been a delight to see the 28

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elected leaders of the European Union and their associated

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functionaries gathered beneath a banner like that tonight, when they

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met for their free dinner in Brussel, to discuss what the

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weekend's elections mean. David Cameron said they meant that people

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felt the EU was "too big, too bossy, too interfering", which seems pretty

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accurate. But these are the very people who made it big, bossy and

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interfering, and what are they going to do about it now? Mark Urban is in

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Brussels. Do you think the implications of the

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vote have sunk in? Well, the thing is, different implications are

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sinking in indifferent international members. For the UK and France it is

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very clear what happened, there was an earthquake of right-wing US

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scepticism. In Spain and Greece, it was clear what happened, it was a

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left-wing rejection of authority that rocked the system, of

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austerity, I beg your pardon. In countries like Italy and the

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Netherlands, there was a far lesser turnout for Eurosceptic parties than

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some of the incumbents had feared even a couple of months ago. Instead

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of having an awkward squad in the European Parliament of up to 200

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Eurosceptics, as someone suggesting that polls might, if they came true,

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deliver, by this point would be considerably less. What's more, you

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have this different national awkward squads, some on the far left, summer

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fascist, who will find it hard to agree about anything. Instead of a

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coherent Eurosceptic block, I think we are looking at a much harder

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Parliament to manage, but one which some people think because of that

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can still be managed. Is there really a sensible business as usual

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there? I think because of that feeling, that perhaps even this can

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be got through, there are extraordinary things going on here.

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These are the things which normally happen after European election. You

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get an election of a new chairman of commission, the civil service, the

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real Eurocrats that people on the right in the UK like to excoriate.

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That happens with a lot of close right in the UK like to excoriate.

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door meetings. The person who ends up taking over

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door meetings. The person who ends current favourite is a Luxembourg

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politician, is not some who was elected on Sunday, it is someone who

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is chosen in these backroom meetings and we are told that these can

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expect to go on for several weeks, while the

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expect to go on for several weeks, parliamentary caucuses haggle over

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who should parliamentary caucuses haggle over

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attempt to get some serious change between the relationship between

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this country and Europe? He is trying to exert influence including

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over the choice of who runs the European Commission next. He had his

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loose alliance of parties including the Dutch, the Swedes and the Danes,

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who were working with him to try and open up some of these areas and say

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that member countries should be able to take more of their so-called

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competencies or powers, if you like. We see for example, the Dutch, not

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under the same pressure from Euro sceptics as they thought they might

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be, in these elections, will they still be so keen on that? One thing

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is the shore, Mr Cameron still still be so keen on that? One thing

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the backing of the Swedish Prime Minister.

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I think the situation in the United Kingdom is one of the most important

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to attend two for the coming five-year period. For Sweden it is

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of the utmost importance that Britain stays inside the European

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Union and we also take into account the situation we

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mandate for the incoming commission. Britain where we now formulate a

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Now, in pushing that case, Mr Cameron, the

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have to convince a disparate and disunited Europe

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have to convince a disparate and when they will find it so

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have to convince a disparate and gain consensus. That is the mountain

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that David Cameron has declined. Thanks, Mark.

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One thing the Eurosceptic voters do have in common is they do not seem

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to like the EU as it is. What are the chances of reform? Chris Cook

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reports. Where should the EU go next? The

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weekend's European Parliament election results may be focusing

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some minds. Eurosceptics did very well. Ministers now have

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some minds. Eurosceptics did very big post-election decision. Who

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should lead the Commission, the executive of the

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EU? But what chance is there David Cameron getting his way, pushing

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through his plans for reform and renegotiation? We need an approach

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that recognises that Europe should concentrate on what matters, and

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growth and jobs and not try to do so much. We need an approach that

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recognises that much. We need an approach that

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big, too much. We need an approach that

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David Cameron is keen to block the favourite to be European Commission

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President, this man, Jean-Claude Junker. But is because Britain --

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David Cameron wants to be negotiate Britain's terms. On one hand David

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Cameron wants to see a European union which does less, a slimmed

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down European Union. On the other hand, you have shone Claude Junker,

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the frontrunner for European Commission president who wants to

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see more centralisation and more Brussels. Reform of any kind will be

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tough. There is not a consensus of what Europe should be. An EU poll

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from last year found that while more than 70% of people in Luxembourg,

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Malta and Germany consider themselves to be EU citizens, the

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equivalent number was only 40% in Greece and the UK. There is also

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great variation in what people worry about. I think there are 28 kinds of

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unhappiness and that is what these elections tell us. There are groups

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of the unhappy. There is British and Danish unhappiness, North European

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liberals outside the euro zone. There are the Germans who are

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unhappy because they feel they have to pay for these profligate

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southerners. And most of all, there are the debtor countries in the euro

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zone who feel unhappy because of these austerity policies imposed on

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them. That number is borne out by the polls. The number of citizens

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who are pro EU has fallen. This has strengthened the case for reform in

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the EU. They do not strengthen the case for Cameron's renegotiation.

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Everyone now sees we have to inform the EU to make it deliver better,

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deliver jobs, deliver more economic growth, meet these discontents,

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across the whole European continent. Renegotiate not --

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renegotiation on your hand, means delivering specific shopping list

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for Britain for Cameron's backbenchers and UKIP voters. The

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sooner we leave, the better. But more Eurosceptics in the European

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Parliament might actually strengthen Cameron's hand. These elections

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which have seen a record number of anti-EU parties will I think serve

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as a wake-up call. If we do not go for reform, eventually, voters might

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throw the baby out with the bath water and go for the anti-EU

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parties. If it is not Cameron, it is the pen and that is a strong

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argument. Keep an eye out on who the new European Commission president

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is. It is a first hint about whether the EU is going to he'd David

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Cameron's call for reform. Joining me now is Sir Malcolm

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Rifkind, the former Foreign Secretary and from Brussels Ska

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Keller, the leader of the Greens in the European Parliament and

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candidate for European Commission president.

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Let me start with you, Sir Malcolm. Do you think these elections

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strengthen or weaken David Cameron's negotiations issue? In the

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short term it is quite a blow to have Nigel Farage do so well. But

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the more I think about it, in a curious way, it may make his job

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easier. The single most important thing I have heard in the last 24

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hours has been for President Hollande of France. His reaction was

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the European Union will have to withdraw from certain things it

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needn't be doing in the first place. Today, he repeated that. If he is

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serious, if France now believes that has to be less involvement in the

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European Union in matters which are not crucial, that are done uniformly

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throughout Europe, that a huge ally for the United Kingdom. We know that

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Angela Merkel is very anxious that the United Kingdom should be

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accommodated in some way. I do not want to overdo it but that has to be

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a serious possibility that for different reasons, the three major

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countries recognise the need for some change. It is a problem because

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we do not know what David Cameron is after. It would be quite foolish for

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him to spell that out at the moment. The negotiation cannot begin and be

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completed by our general election. You cannot start a negotiation when

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the people you are negotiating with no it is not certain you will even

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be in government a year from now. There is nothing to stop you doing

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that. This is an international negotiation. It is not an internal

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British matter. If you were to succeed, neither Britain nor any

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other country will reveal its bottom line prematurely. That is not the

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way you conduct an international mugger station. I am not asking you

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to tell us, but do you know what he is likely to try? I can guess. The

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crucial point is what my Conservative colleagues have to

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recognise, or indeed anyone who supports a renegotiation, is any

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negotiation at the end of the day involves compromise. The most

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successful negotiation does not mean one side gets 100% and everyone else

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gets nothing. The key will be to identify things that make a real

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difference to the United Kingdom, like getting rid of the working time

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directive, protecting London as a European financial centre, and a

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range of issues of that kind which will benefit the United Kingdom

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without other countries that have to agree to that having to explain to

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their electors why some real harm has been done to their interests. It

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can be done but it requires deft diplomatic skills.

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Cigar Keller, these election results are pretty wholesale repudiation of

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your idea of your -- we have had a great success. When

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you look at the Tories, they have not had a great success. Cameron is

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not at all clear of what he means with reform. You cannot say reform

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this, reform that. You have to be clear what should be reformed in

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which way because these elections, like all elections, you have to pick

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your cards on the top of the table. Top of the pile in the UK's UKIP and

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in France it is Front National. We've seen Euro-sceptic countries

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also in the Netherlands. Euro-sceptic parties are not the

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only ones who've been winning in some countries, even though

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unfortunately not everybody seems to have noticed that there is a broad

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array and rage of parties. We've seen very different election

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results. The Greens have been doing very well. That's for a reason. We

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are obviously advocating for reform but we say what sort of reform we

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want, what sort of Europe we want, what jobs we are aiming for, where

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to put more investments in green energy, things that have benefitted

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the UK and would benefit the UK even more if it were to be done. We are

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not just coming empty slogans. But isn't it the case that in these

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circumstances it would be a brave man or woman who would say the

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chances of a renegotiation of the relationship between member states

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are higher now? Isn't it much more likely that the European Union will

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say what we have we hold and we'll stay where we are for now, thank you

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very much? We have a European Parliament with different political

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parties. They have had all their chances in the campaign to say which

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Europe they want and to campaign for their ideas. I do think we still

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have plurality in this Parliament, that's good, but if you want to say

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you want to renegotiate a contract you have to say which direction it

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should go and make that clear. We can only negotiate if it is clear

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what each side wants. Sir Malcolm Rifkind, you are going to need to

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give people in this country, in order to head off what's clearly a

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big upswell of opinion, a pretty clear idea of the direction of

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travel at least. Absolutely right. The fundamental objective, and it is

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not just the United Kingdom but Sweden, Denmark, the Dutch have

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themselves said the days of ever closer union are behind us. It looks

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as though it may be France as well. We are talking of a sizeable bloc,

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including two of the three largest countries in the European Union

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talking the language of reform. That means a crucial necessity of showing

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that the European Union is only about doing the things jointly which

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have to be done jointly. Each member state is a democratic country. There

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is no need for the kind of interference in a whole range of

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social policy, employment policy, economic policy that can better be

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done by national Governments directly answerable to their own

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electorate. Sir Malcolm Rifkind and Ska Keller, thank you both.

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Has there ever been a time when capitalism hasn't been said by

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someone or other to be in crisis? But now it's not just Marxists

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predicting its inevitable collapse, but ardent capitalists themselves

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worrying about whether there might be some other way of running the

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thing. Today, a constellation of big-heads - Bill Clinton, Christine

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Largarde of the IMF, even Prince Charles - wrung their hands and gave

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us the benefit of their ideas on something called inclusive

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capitalism, which they hope may be a way of arresting what seems to be a

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constantly widening gap between rich and poor. The Governor of the Bank

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of England was there too, warning tonight of the dangers of what he

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called "unchecked market fundamentalism". Here's Katie

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Razzall. Has capitalism ever been less

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popular, as discontent spreads, financial crisis and a rise in

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inequality have been grist financial crisis and a rise in

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mill for those who argue that the free market as we know it has had

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its day. This kind of social unrest in part

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explains the inclusive capitalism conference in London today. Bill

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Clinton, Prince Charles, the Bank of England Governor and the head of the

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IMF all talking about why capitalism needs to be renewed. Their audience

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- investors who hold a third of the world's assets, $30 trillion worth.

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The numbers are striking. If you take the 85 wealthiest people in the

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world, they can all fit in a double-decker bus, right? They have

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more amongst themselves than half the population of the world. The

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poorest half of course. But that's 3. 5 billion people. Not that those

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85 people would ever likely travel by double-decker bus, but in the

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City of London today capitalism was under scrutiny by the capitalists.

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People have fought for years to define it for their political ends.

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On paper, this definition of an economic system which uses wealth to

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produce goods sounds fairly anodyne, but when trust is lost, it is a

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wake-up call, as the conference heard today. Bank bail-outs,

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unemployment and recession have all contributed to a sense of them and

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us. British politicians have tried to tap in to the popular belief that

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capitalism needs rewiring. I call for a new popular capitalism. Are

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you on the side of the wealth creators or the estate strippers?

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The producers or the predators? Not everyone accepts premise of today's

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conference - that capitalism needs some work. You create the sense that

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where the wealth have gone wrong recently it is something to do with

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the economic system. I don't believe capitalism has broken down. I think

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these things are driven by some of the events of the financial crisis

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and what's happened since. By and large those can be characterised of

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failures of regulation not market processes. But making capitalism

:20:09.:20:13.

more inclusive was the agenda, taking in as opposed to excluding or

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leaving out. I was only too pleased to go over and arrange for him to

:20:20.:20:24.

open his first account. The world's moved on since the days of the

:20:25.:20:27.

trusty bank manager who knew your name. But the excesses of the

:20:28.:20:33.

banking industry were under fire today. Reforms have been too slow,

:20:34.:20:39.

said Christine Lagarde, in part because the sector has fought them.

:20:40.:20:45.

Within the last few hours Mark Carney gave his critique of

:20:46.:20:50.

capitalism. After he said his number one priority is addressing the issue

:20:51.:20:54.

of banks that are too big to fail. Six years after Lehman Brothers we

:20:55.:20:58.

are still talking about it. It is not that it is low on the priority

:20:59.:21:02.

list. It is that at the top of the priority list and authorities are

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truly working to ensure, as much as possible, that that has happened. So

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why are the bank Governor and some of the world's biggests so

:21:13.:21:17.

interested in inclusive capitalism? Perhaps because they know that

:21:18.:21:21.

inequality can lead to instability, anathema to capitalism. And the last

:21:22.:21:24.

thing they want is another banking crash.

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Joining me now are Sir Charlie Mayfield, chairman of the John Lewis

:21:29.:21:31.

Partnership, and Zanny Minton Beddoes, economics editor of The

:21:32.:21:38.

Economist. Is this way of conducting capital inch, do you think,

:21:39.:21:43.

sustainable? Which way of capitalism? The non-inclusive? I

:21:44.:21:49.

think by definition not. I don't think it's in crisis. There wasn't a

:21:50.:21:54.

sense of immediate crisis at this gathering today, a huge gathering of

:21:55.:22:02.

some $30 trillion... There were loads of wealthy people there. There

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were. I think a powerful one is that it is no long they are the rising

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tide is raising all boats. The rise in inequality means that people at

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the top are doing incredibly well and lots of people further down are

:22:15.:22:17.

not. To the the traditional idea that when an economy grew and there

:22:18.:22:22.

was growth, that no longer is so much the case. But capitalism,

:22:23.:22:27.

hasn't it Sir Charlie Mayfield, always depended on inequality? So

:22:28.:22:33.

there was a recognition today that capital capitalism doesn't mean

:22:34.:22:36.

equality. That some inequality is inevitable. And indeed necessary.

:22:37.:22:41.

But there can also be a point you reach when it is excessive and the

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point that was made repeatedly today is a lot of people are feeling that

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it has got no a stage where income and equality has reached levels that

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are concerning. I do think that's a worry. Another feature is that

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technology is changing the way the job market is working. On the one

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hand there are some people doing very well as a result of technology.

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They are able to do a lot more than before and be paid more for it. But

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there are middle order jobs that used to be good paying jobs which

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have been replaced by technology. The risk is we are seeing a

:23:18.:23:21.

workplace that's changing shape. People talk about the hollowing out

:23:22.:23:25.

of the workplace. Those two things together I think create a situation

:23:26.:23:29.

which is worrying. And needs to be addressed. And they are related. One

:23:30.:23:35.

of the reasons that the inequality is widening is because of the change

:23:36.:23:39.

in technology, which is rewarding people with the skills to useta

:23:40.:23:44.

technology. The mid-skilled level jobs are being automated away. I

:23:45.:23:50.

think the challenge is, how do you equip people with the skills that

:23:51.:23:54.

they need to rots per in this fast-changing environment? That's

:23:55.:23:59.

where Sir Charlie is doing lots of interesting stuff. Do you think

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about education, do you think about training? Can waffle about

:24:04.:24:08.

inclusiveness but there are concrete issues to be addressed. There is a

:24:09.:24:13.

lot of waffle. What would inclusive capitalism look like in a way that

:24:14.:24:16.

we can recognise as different. My definition is that the rising tide,

:24:17.:24:24.

that prosperity raises all boats. It doesn't mean absolutely equality,

:24:25.:24:28.

you need some inequality, but workers gaining as well as

:24:29.:24:33.

shareholders, and everyone is improving somewhat. What is the John

:24:34.:24:37.

Lewis mod Snell That's different to a lot of other businesses in a sense

:24:38.:24:42.

that we are owner by people in the business. So you don't have

:24:43.:24:45.

shareholders? We have shareholders but they work in the business.

:24:46.:24:49.

90,000 people in the business own the company. The interesting thing

:24:50.:24:52.

about the partnership is it was founded less than 100 years ago, but

:24:53.:24:57.

as a response to perceived inequality of capitalism.

:24:58.:25:01.

Essentially it was saying let's have labour employing capital rather than

:25:02.:25:04.

the other way around. But that isn't a model you can apply everywhere is

:25:05.:25:11.

it? No, I do think there is an opportunity for employee ownership,

:25:12.:25:14.

and perhaps more than that for different forms of ownership to play

:25:15.:25:18.

a bigger part in our economy. We've become very focused on the PLC,

:25:19.:25:23.

which will always be I'm sure the predominant form, but not the only

:25:24.:25:28.

one. The way it has worked in most market economies like ours in the

:25:29.:25:32.

past has been that business does what it does, and Government does

:25:33.:25:38.

what it can to aten wait some of the consequences of these disparities.

:25:39.:25:44.

And there was a long term view that business is business and government

:25:45.:25:47.

is government. To a degree that's right. A lot of what's going on now

:25:48.:25:51.

is thinking about what should government be doing differently? It

:25:52.:25:53.

is not government be doing differently? It

:25:54.:25:57.

government is better, far from it. And what should business be doing

:25:58.:26:03.

differently? This advir tore, if you wanted a concrete definition of

:26:04.:26:08.

inclusive capitalism, he called it CEO, the conduct of business,

:26:09.:26:10.

education and training and ownership. I think education and

:26:11.:26:16.

training is central. We've got this unbelievably faction-changing world.

:26:17.:26:19.

It is changing as dramatically as it was in the first Industrial

:26:20.:26:22.

Revolution. And yet we have no radical change do our education

:26:23.:26:26.

system. We haven't radically rethought training. We have a

:26:27.:26:33.

generation of skills that they need to succeed. What would you like

:26:34.:26:39.

Government to do? First of all, we should acknowledge from today is

:26:40.:26:42.

that was business people coming together. There were no serving

:26:43.:26:48.

politician there is at all. That's a recognition by business people that

:26:49.:26:51.

business needs to play a bigger part. What I would like to see from

:26:52.:26:56.

Government is on the one hand in principle the Government can play a

:26:57.:27:01.

bigger role of acting as convenor. There are ways it can engage with

:27:02.:27:06.

business people and others to solve these big challenges. An example of

:27:07.:27:12.

that would be education. You've seen over the last ten or 15 years most

:27:13.:27:16.

successful businesses have completely re-engineered the way

:27:17.:27:20.

they operate. You are seeing now that working lifetimes are going to

:27:21.:27:25.

be at least 20% longer and the innovation cycle is turn turning

:27:26.:27:31.

longer than than before. And yet we still take the view that education

:27:32.:27:39.

takes place between 5 and 21. I want a greater Porosity between the world

:27:40.:27:43.

of business and education. There are lots of opportunities for that to

:27:44.:27:46.

happen at lots of different levels. Thank you both very much indeed.

:27:47.:27:51.

The hundreds of girls kidnapped in Nigeria are no closer to rescue

:27:52.:27:54.

tonight. The Nigerian Army claimed this morning it knew where they are,

:27:55.:27:58.

and just wasn't recovering them because of the risk a liberation

:27:59.:28:02.

mission would pose to them. But tonight the BBC has discovered this

:28:03.:28:06.

may be a long way from the truth. Boko Haram, the organisation which

:28:07.:28:09.

wants to impose a medieval Islamic caliphate in Nigeria and which

:28:10.:28:12.

seized them, meanwhile continues its murderous campaign, with more

:28:13.:28:19.

attacks today. A body count by the Reuters news agency reckons that

:28:20.:28:22.

almost 500 people have been killed since the girls were abducted. The

:28:23.:28:27.

BBC's security correspondent, Frank Gardner, is here. Do they have any

:28:28.:28:35.

idea where these girls are? Only very roughly, Jeremy. Everybody I've

:28:36.:28:40.

spoken to says they don't have the precise location. Let's look at the

:28:41.:28:47.

map. There's Nigeria, there's Abuja the capital, the girls were taken

:28:48.:28:51.

from Chibok in the north-east corner. They've been taken it is

:28:52.:28:57.

believed to the north of there to a forest. That's an area twice the

:28:58.:29:02.

size of Rwanda, 16 times size of London. So saying they know where

:29:03.:29:06.

the girls are is a bit of a moveable fierce. They've been sending drones

:29:07.:29:11.

over, satellite planes and spy planes. The girls have been split up

:29:12.:29:17.

into groups. Some are being held under ground in caves. A hostage

:29:18.:29:21.

rescue would be suicidal and result in a blood bath, which is why the

:29:22.:29:25.

Nigerian military is saying, rightly, that's not on the cards for

:29:26.:29:36.

now. Have there been any attempts that negotiations? You have the

:29:37.:29:41.

president, Goodluck Jonathan saying we are not going to accede to their

:29:42.:29:47.

demands, but we have heard they came very close to deal which got

:29:48.:29:51.

scuppered at the last minute that they were going to release 50 of the

:29:52.:29:57.

girls which is a start, in exchange for 100 Boko Haram amp is in is.

:29:58.:30:03.

That got scuppered. We learnt tonight there was a DVD that proves

:30:04.:30:14.

the girls are live. If that is true and there is no way of corroborating

:30:15.:30:20.

it, that is extremely important. The fundamental principles of kidnap and

:30:21.:30:24.

ransom negotiations are, you establish proof of life, are the

:30:25.:30:28.

girls alive and well, and proof of ownership. Are the people you are

:30:29.:30:32.

talking to the people holding them? If you have got that, you have the

:30:33.:30:37.

basis of negotiation. That is the only way the girls will get out of

:30:38.:30:43.

there alive. Thank you. And so to bed.

:30:44.:30:48.

Few artworks have divided opinion as drastically as Tracey Emin's My

:30:49.:30:54.

Bed, made or rather un-made 16 years ago in her Waterloo council flat. Of

:30:55.:30:59.

course, it is just a bed and a grubby one at that. But it also

:31:00.:31:06.

expresses a state of mind and expresses the life of Warman who has

:31:07.:31:10.

made her personal history the stuff of her art. It is a period piece,

:31:11.:31:15.

one of the most celebrated examples of a time when the and font terrible

:31:16.:31:23.

of the Young British artists could scandalised by ideas. Charles

:31:24.:31:28.

Saatchi, who made so much of the art scene, is willing to part with it if

:31:29.:31:32.

you should happen to have a few hundred thousand pounds burning a

:31:33.:31:36.

hole in your pocket. Tracey Emin is here now. It was a good few years

:31:37.:31:42.

ago you made that bed or produced that piece. 16 years ago, a long

:31:43.:31:49.

time. What does it mean to you now? This morning I was installing it.

:31:50.:31:54.

What is shocking is everything from the bed is kept in little tiny

:31:55.:31:59.

plastic bags and it is all out on a chess table and it is like a frenzy

:32:00.:32:03.

lab. As I am opening everything it is half like a crime scene and half

:32:04.:32:09.

like a diary. Nearly everything I am touching is 1 million miles away

:32:10.:32:13.

from me now. It is like a time capsule of my life really. I found

:32:14.:32:17.

it a really sad thing to see that bed. It was a bed occupied by

:32:18.:32:22.

someone, and I think you were unhappy at the time, when two? I was

:32:23.:32:28.

very unhappy but also, that period of my life, was highs and lows. So

:32:29.:32:36.

when you see the bed, how odd that it is preserved, such a mess is

:32:37.:32:42.

preserved so precisely. It is funny. As an artist, when you're young and

:32:43.:32:47.

unknown, there is no way you ever thinking your heart that it will

:32:48.:32:50.

stay around forever or for a long time. And especially something like

:32:51.:32:56.

the bed which is so serial, it is throwaway things, things which

:32:57.:33:01.

should still not be existing. When I first the bed in Japan, this is

:33:02.:33:04.

something most people don't know, the Japanese customs people would

:33:05.:33:10.

not allow it in to Tokyo or the airport. We had to prove that I was

:33:11.:33:17.

an artist, that I was alive, that was the other thing. They wanted to

:33:18.:33:21.

know if I was still alive. I think it was Nixon wrote at the Tate and

:33:22.:33:25.

the British Council had to send letters saying I was a living artist

:33:26.:33:31.

in Britain -- Nick Sirota. Why did they not wanted in? I did not have

:33:32.:33:37.

time for transport and I had all of the stuff around the bed inside the

:33:38.:33:47.

suitcases. All the old condom 's and fag ends? Yes, all in bags but

:33:48.:33:49.

inside the suitcases so they were going to destroy the suitcases. Of

:33:50.:33:57.

course it was a great call celebre, and various people got very hot

:33:58.:34:00.

under the collar screaming this is not art. What did you think when you

:34:01.:34:06.

heard that? I just screamed louder and said, yes it is, it is my art.

:34:07.:34:11.

With being an artist, if you have true conviction about what you're

:34:12.:34:14.

doing and you are doing it for the right reasons, no one can take that

:34:15.:34:18.

away from you. I proved that with the bed, just the testimony of time,

:34:19.:34:22.

the fact that it is still here, it has become more iconic, it is more

:34:23.:34:27.

seminal, it has more presents now than it did then. Then people

:34:28.:34:31.

thought I was a silly young thing doing a shocking piece of art. When

:34:32.:34:37.

you actually see it now, like this morning, I'm not saying you saw my

:34:38.:34:40.

bed this morning or anything like that, or anyone else for that

:34:41.:34:47.

matter! But the bed, it looks very sweet and almost harmless in a way.

:34:48.:34:53.

Now it is definitely middle-aged. It is middle-aged and it needs to be

:34:54.:34:57.

somewhere where it is preserved. Does it remind you of a part of your

:34:58.:35:02.

life which is very distant. Guess, you can say that again. When I was

:35:03.:35:07.

going through that different thing, there are condoms, contraceptive

:35:08.:35:10.

pills, cigarettes, vodka, tiny underwear, all of those things which

:35:11.:35:15.

are to do with being a girl and coming through some kind of

:35:16.:35:20.

transition, going through something, some cathartic state. I

:35:21.:35:24.

do not live like that any more. Now you wear enormous knickers expat

:35:25.:35:35.

this bed is now worth a fortune. Isn't that odd? Some people think it

:35:36.:35:40.

is probably a joke that it is worth that much and some people probably

:35:41.:35:44.

think it is worth more. It depends what our perception of art is, what

:35:45.:35:49.

is important, what our values are. The bed I think is iconic, it is

:35:50.:35:53.

seminal and it did make a splash in art history. I do not know how long

:35:54.:35:59.

for but at the moment it is still there. How much did Charles Saatchi

:36:00.:36:05.

by four? 150,000. Now it is being talked about as going for a million.

:36:06.:36:11.

You will not see any of that increase presumably? No. What you

:36:12.:36:18.

feel? I am quite philosophical about my work being sold on. Charles has

:36:19.:36:23.

looked after it. I know he adored it. If he does sell it, all of that

:36:24.:36:28.

money will be used to buy more art and create an educational programme

:36:29.:36:32.

and I think that is a useful thing. I think that is really positive. I

:36:33.:36:36.

have always had the attitude that if someone buys my art, they might

:36:37.:36:41.

literally only to resell it, but I will always own the idea and the

:36:42.:36:45.

essence of it and it truly is mine. No one can ever take that away from

:36:46.:36:48.

me. That is why I am on the programme tonight talking to you and

:36:49.:36:53.

talking about my bed. Tracey Emin, thank you very much. Thank you.

:36:54.:36:57.

talking about my bed. Tracey Emin, The World Cup begins in just over a

:36:58.:36:58.

fortnight, much to The World Cup begins in just over a

:36:59.:37:01.

various parts of the population of Brazil, who think grotesque amounts

:37:02.:37:04.

have been spent on the preparations. The government sees the competition

:37:05.:37:08.

as a way to celebrate its great economic growth. The flip side of

:37:09.:37:15.

all of that, is all the stories of destruction in the Amazon rainforest

:37:16.:37:18.

and the obliteration of the ways of life of indigenous people living

:37:19.:37:21.

there. As Justin Rowlatt has discovered, this is a problem the

:37:22.:37:24.

government knows it needs to be seen to be tackling.

:37:25.:37:30.

government knows it needs to be seen We are flying over the edge of the

:37:31.:37:31.

Amazon. We are flying over the edge of the

:37:32.:37:32.

spotted an illegal sawmill. The team is led by Officer

:37:33.:38:01.

Gonsalves. This raid is part of huge operation including the Brazilian

:38:02.:38:05.

army, air force and military police. It is a first in the history of

:38:06.:38:18.

Brazil. It is called operation Awa and stopping illegal logging is part

:38:19.:38:23.

of it. The key objective is to save an entire tribe, the Awa. The agents

:38:24.:38:29.

find some incriminating evidence, the account books. Look at this.

:38:30.:38:36.

They have got the total value, 4700 Riaus and there is a fee here, 202

:38:37.:38:44.

pay the police. This year, Brazil is hosting the World Cup. In 2016, it

:38:45.:38:50.

will stage the Olympics. These events have helped drive a building

:38:51.:38:54.

boom creating a massive demand for timber. They have made the forest

:38:55.:39:00.

reserves of the indigenous people like the Awa, even more attractive

:39:01.:39:05.

to loggers. The offices decided there is only one thing for it.

:39:06.:39:16.

An officer from Brazil's indigenous peoples Department is taking me into

:39:17.:39:46.

the Awa's reserve. The Awa live in the last islands of

:39:47.:40:01.

forest left in this region. They may be near to the edge of the jungle

:40:02.:40:05.

but they are one of the most isolated communities on earth. Many

:40:06.:40:13.

Awa grew up without any outside contact -- contact with the outside

:40:14.:40:17.

world. Many small groups still live completely separately. He says they

:40:18.:40:24.

are in an area now where they know there are uncontacted people. There

:40:25.:40:33.

may be 40 or 50 people here. There is a spider web of tracks in the

:40:34.:40:38.

forest. They know the loggers are here as well. The loggers are

:40:39.:40:42.

rapidly destroying the remaining forest, putting the 350 or so Awa in

:40:43.:40:48.

such peril that they have been described as the most endangered

:40:49.:40:55.

tribe on the planet. I first met the tribe four years ago. Last time I

:40:56.:41:07.

was here, they took me on a hunt. I am not going to dress like that!

:41:08.:41:12.

They are one of the few hunter gatherer tribes left in the Amazon.

:41:13.:41:17.

With so much of the forest gone, the hunt leader wanted to show me how

:41:18.:41:20.

hard it is to find food. I am back to find out how the Awa

:41:21.:41:37.

are getting on. It is amazing to come back. I never thought I would,

:41:38.:41:47.

actually. Hello, I remember you. Do you remember me? We came here

:41:48.:41:55.

before. For years and, if anything, the Awa's plight has only deepened.

:41:56.:42:00.

They tell me these days you can sometimes hear loggers chainsaws

:42:01.:42:07.

from the village. Many of the adults here grew up in uncontacted

:42:08.:42:12.

communities. They say they have been fleeing the loggers ever since they

:42:13.:42:18.

were children and with good reason. This man says loggers have been

:42:19.:42:21.

known to kill indigenous people when they encounter them in the forest.

:42:22.:42:45.

Not only do loggers destroy habitats, they open up the forest

:42:46.:42:50.

with tracks bringing in settlers who clear the land. That is why this

:42:51.:42:58.

operation has to be on such a large scale.

:42:59.:43:08.

They have to evict the 400 farming families who illegally occupy the

:43:09.:43:21.

Awa's land. All of these people will be moved out of the town and they

:43:22.:43:25.

have come here to ask how their preparations are going, whether they

:43:26.:43:29.

need help with transport, and the idea is these guys will be given

:43:30.:43:33.

another plot of land somewhere else in Brazil where they can farm. Some

:43:34.:43:40.

families have been here for 18 years. Naturally, they are sad to

:43:41.:43:41.

leave.

:43:42.:43:44.

EU leaders consider the aftermath of the European elections, the latest on the kidnapped Nigerian girls, Tracey Emin's bed goes up for auction, protecting the Awa community in Brazil and is capitalism in crisis? With Jeremy Paxman.


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