Browse content similar to 10/06/2014. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Islamist insurgents seize one of the biggest cities in Iraq, and | :00:09. | :00:13. | |
Washington declares they now represent a threat to the entire | :00:14. | :00:17. | |
region. Government forces simply fled. Can the administration for | :00:18. | :00:21. | |
which so many western soldiers died hold the line against Al-Qaeda's | :00:22. | :00:26. | |
allies. In the Congo the victims of rape by soldiers get their day in | :00:27. | :00:30. | |
court. We follow the efforts to bring the perpetrators of sexual | :00:31. | :00:32. | |
violence to justice. And remember this? You said to the | :00:33. | :00:48. | |
Secretary of State I want to make unannounced inspections? Yes I did. | :00:49. | :00:55. | |
And what did he say? The Chief Inspector of schools unspeaks what | :00:56. | :01:01. | |
he tried to say yesterday. And fish? This is my only first dinner | :01:02. | :01:05. | |
tonight. Is this a crime against animals, do you care whether or not | :01:06. | :01:10. | |
the fish on your plate felt pain as it died? | :01:11. | :01:18. | |
It the Iraq War, which cost the lives of hundreds of thousands of | :01:19. | :01:22. | |
people was fought to overthrow a dictator and to make the country | :01:23. | :01:26. | |
safe for democracy. Today, 11 years after that war began, control of one | :01:27. | :01:31. | |
of the largest cities in the country fell to a group linked to Al-Qaeda. | :01:32. | :01:39. | |
Police and soldiers in moment sul, cap -- Mosul, simply ran away. The | :01:40. | :01:44. | |
rebels are said to have released a thousand or so people from prison. | :01:45. | :01:55. | |
Militants, Sunni rebels are in control of one of Iraq's biggest | :01:56. | :01:58. | |
cities. In many places the security fors just melted away, leaving | :01:59. | :02:02. | |
uniforms and abandoned vehicles behind. It is a body blow to the | :02:03. | :02:09. | |
Shia-led Baghdad Government. I think they are the most significant events | :02:10. | :02:13. | |
to have taken place in Iraq, certainly since the height of the | :02:14. | :02:18. | |
Civil War in 2007. I wouldn't imagine betting they are even more | :02:19. | :02:20. | |
significant than those difficult days as well. What has happened in | :02:21. | :02:35. | |
Mos sum In Mosul is unprecedented. Iraqi security forces melting away, | :02:36. | :02:40. | |
running away, and the political elite in Baghdad not knowing what to | :02:41. | :02:45. | |
do. For many months the western cities of Fallujah and Ramadi have | :02:46. | :02:51. | |
been in open revolt, half a million people reportedly fled as a result. | :02:52. | :02:58. | |
Then Isis and other Jihadist groups started moving into Nineva province, | :02:59. | :03:06. | |
freeing nearly 3,000 prisoners in jail. Air strikes followed but | :03:07. | :03:09. | |
Government forces started to collapse, today the Jew haddists | :03:10. | :03:15. | |
extended their control over the banks of the tigress taking the | :03:16. | :03:23. | |
major airport and other bases. Over 100,000 people fled, these scenes | :03:24. | :03:36. | |
were taken. Victory for Isis extends across to Syria. Imagine you are an | :03:37. | :03:41. | |
insurgent group and take over a whole city, the Central Bank of the | :03:42. | :03:48. | |
city, the weapons, the bases, everything there, that will, Isis | :03:49. | :03:55. | |
was really losing in Syria, they were limited to a tiny little place | :03:56. | :04:01. | |
on the northern edge of Syria and now taking over Mosul, that is a | :04:02. | :04:08. | |
huge boost for Isis. It isn't just that the Jihadists of Isis have | :04:09. | :04:14. | |
captured guns calm glory, they have taken an economic centre and | :04:15. | :04:17. | |
strengthened their position in Syria too. With much of Iraq slipping | :04:18. | :04:21. | |
under the control of Sunni Jihadists, and the Government's | :04:22. | :04:26. | |
inability to export oil and generate revenue now being called into | :04:27. | :04:28. | |
question, there is a real chance of Iraq being dismembered and the whole | :04:29. | :04:34. | |
issue becoming a major international security problem. So how did the | :04:35. | :04:40. | |
Prime Minister, re-elected just two months ago, get into this situation? | :04:41. | :04:46. | |
He has pursued rather aggressive politics of sectarianism, since 2006 | :04:47. | :04:52. | |
and increasingly so since he became Prime Minister. He has marginalised | :04:53. | :04:56. | |
the Sunni-Arab community failed to make good on promises made to them | :04:57. | :05:01. | |
by the Americans during the surge and the awakening of the Sunnis that | :05:02. | :05:04. | |
saw the last Al-Qaeda insurgency end. And now what we see is a | :05:05. | :05:10. | |
marginalised, disenfranchised people, not wanting to engage with | :05:11. | :05:15. | |
the Government in Iraq, and into which the message of Isis seems to | :05:16. | :05:20. | |
be extremely strong. America has already said it will give more help | :05:21. | :05:25. | |
to Iraq's security forces, but the shortcomings exposed today show it | :05:26. | :05:31. | |
will take a lot more than a few Humvees or guns to turn this around. | :05:32. | :05:39. | |
Mr Malaki may have to make use of Shia militias as the battle | :05:40. | :05:43. | |
threatens to spread to Baghdad itself. | :05:44. | :05:45. | |
The Chief Inspector of schools wasn't quite made to eat the words | :05:46. | :05:50. | |
he made on Newsnight tonight, nothing so crude, but a bit of | :05:51. | :05:54. | |
clarification, after he seemed to say that the Education Secretary, | :05:55. | :05:59. | |
Michael Gove, rejected the idea of unannounced inspections of schools | :06:00. | :06:02. | |
when it was put to him two years ago. Today the minister's office | :06:03. | :06:08. | |
denied flat out that he had stopped the idea. Sir Michael Willshaw said | :06:09. | :06:15. | |
later on today it was he who decided not to go ahead with the plan. This | :06:16. | :06:19. | |
is what he said last night. We need do it. You saw it two years ago and | :06:20. | :06:23. | |
you didn't do it? That was something I discussed with the Secretary of | :06:24. | :06:27. | |
State and we pulled back. You said to the Secretary of State you want | :06:28. | :06:30. | |
to make unannounced inspections? Yes I did. Has the Secretary of State | :06:31. | :06:34. | |
changed his mind? I think he has. When you put it to him before, he | :06:35. | :06:38. | |
said what? He said we need to look at this and listen to what head | :06:39. | :06:41. | |
teachers are saying about needing to be in the school, prior to an | :06:42. | :06:45. | |
inspection, so they can have a preliminary dialogue with the | :06:46. | :06:50. | |
inspectors about how the inspection should be conducted. So we pulled | :06:51. | :06:53. | |
back on that, so they have now just a few hours. On his say so? Yes. He | :06:54. | :06:58. | |
told you no we're not going to do that? We had a robust discussion | :06:59. | :07:03. | |
about it, and I'm really pleased that minds have been changed. But he | :07:04. | :07:07. | |
has come to see your point of view? I hope so. | :07:08. | :07:12. | |
Now Emily has been speaking to the major players today and has tried to | :07:13. | :07:17. | |
untangle who really said what? This is the row that keeps on | :07:18. | :07:29. | |
giving. There was a furious outburst from the Department of Education | :07:30. | :07:32. | |
after last night, and they flatly denied that Michael Gove had been | :07:33. | :07:36. | |
the roadblock in this, and said that Sir Michael Willshaw had | :07:37. | :07:40. | |
misremembered. I was given a blow-by-blow account by two of | :07:41. | :07:45. | |
Michael Gove's advisers at the time of exactly what happened, it dates | :07:46. | :07:50. | |
back to 2007 when they said Mr Gove was in favour of this. A no-notice | :07:51. | :07:55. | |
inspection, a flash inspection with no notice of preamble to the school. | :07:56. | :08:02. | |
He was in favour in 2009 and 2011 in office, articles to support there. | :08:03. | :08:08. | |
Michael Willshaw came into Ofsted in 2012 and immediately appeared to | :08:09. | :08:12. | |
support the idea of the no-notice inspection, the two were singing | :08:13. | :08:16. | |
from the same hymn sheet. Three months into the job according to | :08:17. | :08:20. | |
Michael Gove's advisers, Sir Michael Willshaw lost his nerve. He had a | :08:21. | :08:24. | |
bad run in with the press, he had lots of interviews that hadn't | :08:25. | :08:27. | |
worked out for him, he didn't want to make an enemy of the head | :08:28. | :08:31. | |
teachers, he lost his bottle and said he didn't want to go ahead with | :08:32. | :08:35. | |
it, Michael Gove went and addressed the head teachers' conference and | :08:36. | :08:39. | |
broke this news, perhaps unfortunately, because it wasn't | :08:40. | :08:43. | |
really his place to be doing it, and he used very incendiary language, | :08:44. | :08:50. | |
talking about Ofsted as the "Spanish inquisition". He really slagged them | :08:51. | :08:55. | |
off, it got Sir Michael Willshaw furious, even though he confirmed a | :08:56. | :08:59. | |
few weeks later that he was dropping the no-notice policy. Briefly | :09:00. | :09:03. | |
Ofsted's response? This is what is so curious, this afternoon the | :09:04. | :09:07. | |
Department of Education put out a press release that put a lid on the | :09:08. | :09:11. | |
whole thing. They said the Chief Inspector has confirmed the | :09:12. | :09:15. | |
education secretary did not ask Ofsted to halt its plans. Seems very | :09:16. | :09:20. | |
clear. So I called Ofsted and said are you retracting those words? No, | :09:21. | :09:26. | |
they are not I was told. Were they apologising or stepping down, no | :09:27. | :09:31. | |
they are not. Why did they sign up to the press release? They said | :09:32. | :09:35. | |
there is no point pick a fight over tittle tattle on a policy on which | :09:36. | :09:39. | |
we broadly agree. They just thought it looked more grown up to let it | :09:40. | :09:44. | |
go. But they are not saying that Sir Michael Willshaw was wrong or | :09:45. | :09:49. | |
backing down, it is over to you and everyone else who is telling the | :09:50. | :09:52. | |
truth here. The Hollywood star, Angelina Jolie, made a passionate | :09:53. | :09:56. | |
speech today about the crime of sexual violence against women in | :09:57. | :10:00. | |
war. Speaking at the International Gathering, organised by the Foreign | :10:01. | :10:04. | |
Office here in London. She said we all had to recognise that there is | :10:05. | :10:08. | |
no shame in being a survivor, the shame attaches only to those who | :10:09. | :10:13. | |
perpetrate rape. It is not, she said, an inevitable part of war. | :10:14. | :10:18. | |
William Hague likened the campaign of sexual violence to the fight | :10:19. | :10:22. | |
against slavery. How to bring the rule of law to the conduct of war is | :10:23. | :10:25. | |
a challenge everywhere. It is very tough work, but not without the | :10:26. | :10:30. | |
occasional success. Fiona Lloyd Davies reports from the Democratic | :10:31. | :10:36. | |
Republic of Congo. This is not Afghanistan or Somalia, | :10:37. | :10:42. | |
it is eastern Democratic Republic of Congo. These women are testifying in | :10:43. | :10:51. | |
a landmark trial. They are veiled for their own projection, the | :10:52. | :10:57. | |
defendants are soldiers from the Congolese Army, accused of mass rape | :10:58. | :11:03. | |
and looting. 39 soldiers and officers up to the rank of | :11:04. | :11:07. | |
Lieutenant Colonel are on trial in a military court. Over 1,000 victims | :11:08. | :11:11. | |
of rape and looting have been recorded. Yet is justice being done? | :11:12. | :11:41. | |
An estimated one. Eight million women have been raped in their | :11:42. | :11:47. | |
lifetime in Congo. Despite the laws against sexual violence being | :11:48. | :11:53. | |
revised in 2006, justice has never been taken seriously as a deterrent | :11:54. | :11:59. | |
here, and a culture of impunity has prevailed, until now. Nadine is an | :12:00. | :12:10. | |
associate of a law firm in the regional capital, Goma. She is one | :12:11. | :12:15. | |
of the prosecuting lawyers in what could be an historic case. | :12:16. | :12:47. | |
Today Nadine is going with a psychologist to the town where the | :12:48. | :12:56. | |
Congolese Army raped at least 76 women and children in November 2012. | :12:57. | :13:01. | |
The area is still heavily militarised, and there are many | :13:02. | :13:06. | |
thousands of disbanded militia. Both the witnesses and lawyers have been | :13:07. | :13:08. | |
threatened and intimidated. This was an ordinary market town, | :13:09. | :13:46. | |
but the local people will never forget that night when several | :13:47. | :13:49. | |
thousand Congolese Army troops arrived. They had been ordered to | :13:50. | :13:53. | |
withdraw from Goma, leaving their own families vulnerable to the | :13:54. | :13:59. | |
invading M 23 rebels. Angry and frustrated the soldiers punished the | :14:00. | :14:07. | |
towns people. This woman was raped and sodomised by three soldiers that | :14:08. | :14:09. | |
night. She has already testified in court | :14:10. | :14:27. | |
and found the experience of being a witness a terrible ordeal. | :14:28. | :14:58. | |
They have arrived in the village. The women know how distressing it is | :14:59. | :15:05. | |
for the rape survivors to come to court and are here to prepare them. | :15:06. | :15:11. | |
The psychologist has been working with one woman who was dragged from | :15:12. | :15:16. | |
her hut and raped by a soldier. At the time her baby was only two | :15:17. | :15:19. | |
months old. The local population don't believe | :15:20. | :16:16. | |
the right soldiers are on trial and think they might even still be in | :16:17. | :16:22. | |
the area. Surrounding the village are more than 2,000 disbanded | :16:23. | :16:29. | |
militia men in limbo. This Colonel is one of them. His men took part in | :16:30. | :16:34. | |
the devastation of the village in November 2012. | :16:35. | :17:06. | |
Locally the suspicion is that the Colonel ordered his men to rape. He | :17:07. | :17:15. | |
denied the allegations. Yet he seemed heavily dependent on his | :17:16. | :17:21. | |
advisers sitting next to him. Below the camp, some people still | :17:22. | :17:46. | |
live in fear of him. Since then the Colonel has left the | :17:47. | :18:14. | |
transit centre, taking his men with him into the forest. No high ranking | :18:15. | :18:23. | |
member of the Congolese Army stood trial. I can mention two or three | :18:24. | :18:27. | |
generals, I would have liked to see them stand trial. But never | :18:28. | :18:33. | |
happened, it didn't fly well with the political regime. In Goma in the | :18:34. | :18:39. | |
regional capital, it is another day in court and Nadine is getting | :18:40. | :18:40. | |
ready. One of the most significant charges | :18:41. | :19:37. | |
against these soldiers is of officers failing to control their | :19:38. | :19:41. | |
men. It has been levelled because only one of the raped women was able | :19:42. | :19:43. | |
to identify her assaliant. This is the man she identified, the | :19:44. | :20:12. | |
reason she is so certain is because he's missing a finger which she | :20:13. | :20:15. | |
noticed the night she was raped. And the secretary Lieutenant says he | :20:16. | :20:37. | |
has a cast iron alibi. He doesn't feel he has seen much | :20:38. | :20:56. | |
justice. It is the day of the verdict. It is | :20:57. | :21:22. | |
just five months since this military trial for war crimes started. For | :21:23. | :21:26. | |
Nadine this will be one of the most important decisions of her career. | :21:27. | :21:56. | |
When the trial started 40 men were accused of war crimes, including | :21:57. | :22:05. | |
rape. Since then one man has died in prison and only 27 were detained. | :22:06. | :22:12. | |
Five of the senior officers accused of failing to control their troops | :22:13. | :22:22. | |
were never compelled to appear in court. | :22:23. | :22:30. | |
It is time for the men to hear their fate. None of the witnesses have | :22:31. | :22:36. | |
come, because it is thought to be too dangerous for them. | :22:37. | :23:02. | |
Second Lieutenant Sabwe is one of only two accused of rape as a war | :23:03. | :23:13. | |
crime who have been found guilty. He has been sentenced to life | :23:14. | :23:18. | |
imprisonment. 18 other soldiers were found guilty of looting, all of the | :23:19. | :23:29. | |
five senior officers were cleared. As those found guilty are | :23:30. | :23:33. | |
graphically striped of their rank, whatever the flaws of this trial, | :23:34. | :23:37. | |
the limited successes should also be acknowledged. It has been brought to | :23:38. | :23:46. | |
a conclusion, many witnesses did come to testify at great risk and | :23:47. | :23:50. | |
there were convictions for rape as a war crime, although just two. But if | :23:51. | :24:01. | |
Congo is ever going to rid itself of the title of "rape capital of the | :24:02. | :24:05. | |
world", there needs to be a much stronger form of justice. The cost | :24:06. | :24:10. | |
to society for impunity is still running very high. | :24:11. | :24:48. | |
With us now is Baroness Warsi, a Foreign Office minister and also | :24:49. | :24:55. | |
minister for faith and communities. Let's start by talking, we will come | :24:56. | :25:02. | |
to the question, the Michael Gove, Muslim schools row in a moment, | :25:03. | :25:06. | |
let's first of all talk about the rape initiative you have going. How | :25:07. | :25:11. | |
big is the operational squad of Foreign Office and kindred spirits | :25:12. | :25:17. | |
involved in it? The number of people attending this conference, this | :25:18. | :25:20. | |
summit will in the end run into thousands. The summit is happening | :25:21. | :25:24. | |
not just in London but across the world. We have over 115 countries | :25:25. | :25:29. | |
attending. But it is not just about the numbers, it is about building | :25:30. | :25:34. | |
momentum, real political momentum. But how many people has the British | :25:35. | :25:39. | |
Government committed to it? We have committed experts, which runs into | :25:40. | :25:44. | |
dozens, we are about 70 or 80 experts have already been chance. | :25:45. | :25:48. | |
What are they doing? They are in a variety of field, some of them are | :25:49. | :25:52. | |
experts on evidence-gathering, prosecution, some of them are | :25:53. | :25:57. | |
working on psychological trauma, Victim Support. Some of them are | :25:58. | :26:00. | |
assisting countries with their legal processes and making sure that the | :26:01. | :26:04. | |
right laws are put in place so we do get convictions. What that video | :26:05. | :26:10. | |
showed, more than anything else s that victims need justice, and they | :26:11. | :26:15. | |
need justice by getting successful prosecutions. One of the biggest | :26:16. | :26:18. | |
aims of the summit is to make sure we sign an international protocol | :26:19. | :26:24. | |
that has been agreed set of international standards, which means | :26:25. | :26:27. | |
that evidence is properly gathered and prosecutions are properly | :26:28. | :26:30. | |
brought to court and we do get convictions and finally some justice | :26:31. | :26:36. | |
for the survivors. It makes you wonder why these experts aren't | :26:37. | :26:40. | |
being sent to places like the Democratic Republic of Congo, in | :26:41. | :26:47. | |
order in order that women can get justice. We are working with | :26:48. | :26:49. | |
politicians to get the right political will and we send experts. | :26:50. | :26:56. | |
We have experts in the DRC working with local commune to ex-some of it | :26:57. | :27:01. | |
is about working with NGOs and faith organises working on the ground in | :27:02. | :27:05. | |
the DRC. These are small steps that we have to continue to take to start | :27:06. | :27:10. | |
to build this culture, trying to build this myth-busting approach to | :27:11. | :27:15. | |
the culture of impunity that exists for these victims. Given that this | :27:16. | :27:21. | |
is now a priority of this Government, are we going to take a | :27:22. | :27:26. | |
more generous attitude towards women who are coming here as victims of | :27:27. | :27:32. | |
sexual violence in war? I think we have always considered the legal | :27:33. | :27:36. | |
aspect of war and rape during war as part of people's asylum | :27:37. | :27:40. | |
applications. I know as a lawyer it was one of the things that would | :27:41. | :27:45. | |
always be put forward as part of an asylum claim. Taking one particular | :27:46. | :27:52. | |
case, a woman from Democratic Republic of Congo waiting two years | :27:53. | :27:56. | |
on to hear whether her application for asylum will be successful or | :27:57. | :28:00. | |
not. Who felt humiliated by the cross-examination she got when she | :28:01. | :28:04. | |
came here about her experience, understandably. Who spent the night | :28:05. | :28:08. | |
sleeping in a telephone box, this doesn't sound terribly sympathetic? | :28:09. | :28:12. | |
I know from the discussions I have had with Theresa May that she takes | :28:13. | :28:16. | |
these issues incredibly seriously the work she has done to champion | :28:17. | :28:22. | |
the lives of women and survivors of rape, domestically and | :28:23. | :28:25. | |
internationally, is a huge priority for her. I can't comment on | :28:26. | :28:28. | |
individual cases, but I do think, and I do agree with you that more | :28:29. | :28:33. | |
can be done in making sure that the rape aspect of a person's claim is | :28:34. | :28:37. | |
brought forward. I know that when I used to hear about claims, in my | :28:38. | :28:43. | |
experiences hearing from the women who left the Bosnian war, but the | :28:44. | :28:51. | |
rape element of the horrific experience would be the last thing | :28:52. | :28:54. | |
to come out. That is incredibly challenging sometimes to try to make | :28:55. | :28:57. | |
sure that the full case is put when you make an asylum claim. Can we | :28:58. | :29:01. | |
talk a little bit about the business of schools in Birmingham and indeed | :29:02. | :29:08. | |
elsewhere? We have heard people in Birmingham saying these schools were | :29:09. | :29:12. | |
singled out because they were Muslim schools, that the action taken | :29:13. | :29:16. | |
against them would not have been taken against them had they been | :29:17. | :29:19. | |
Jewish or Catholic schools, is that fair? I would like to think that is | :29:20. | :29:23. | |
not the case or believe that is not the case. These are incredibly | :29:24. | :29:29. | |
serious allegations which would have serious consequences, it is | :29:30. | :29:33. | |
therefore right that these inquiries that we have on going do complete | :29:34. | :29:37. | |
and we get to the bottom of what did and didn't happen and what was and | :29:38. | :29:40. | |
wasn't said. Are you with Michael Gove, you think that religious | :29:41. | :29:45. | |
conservatism can lead, step by step, to terrorism? I don't think Michael | :29:46. | :29:50. | |
is saying that religious conservatism can lead to terrorism. | :29:51. | :29:53. | |
What I fundamentally believe is you can be religiously observant and | :29:54. | :29:58. | |
incredibly observant, that doesn't make you a terrorist. It doesn't | :29:59. | :30:00. | |
mean you are on the pathway to becoming a terrorist. When he talks | :30:01. | :30:08. | |
about British values, and he cites tolerance and other examples of | :30:09. | :30:14. | |
British values, are these schools implicitly not teaching British | :30:15. | :30:20. | |
values? Most schools will in some form of their curriculum talk about | :30:21. | :30:24. | |
what it means to be British, talking about identity. But British values | :30:25. | :30:28. | |
are values held by British people, are they not? Yes. So if some | :30:29. | :30:35. | |
British parents do not wish to celebrate Christmas, do not wish | :30:36. | :30:39. | |
their children to have sex education in school, those are British values | :30:40. | :30:45. | |
aren't they? Sorry. If some British parents do not wish their children | :30:46. | :30:49. | |
to celebrate Christmas, do not wish them to have sex education in | :30:50. | :30:52. | |
schools, those are British values are they not? Fundamental British | :30:53. | :30:59. | |
value is tolerance and accepting people who are different to you, | :31:00. | :31:06. | |
part of that is looking at different religions, celebrating different | :31:07. | :31:12. | |
faith backgrounds and perspectives. Do you think gay marriage is a | :31:13. | :31:17. | |
British value? I think accepting people for being different is a | :31:18. | :31:22. | |
British value. That wasn't quite my question? If you accept somebody who | :31:23. | :31:27. | |
is different, then you accept somebody who practices a different | :31:28. | :31:31. | |
lifestyle to you, whether that is difference in race, religion and | :31:32. | :31:37. | |
sexuality. I don't want to be too persistent here, but you did oppose | :31:38. | :31:43. | |
the Section 28 legislation didn't you? And I have apologised what I | :31:44. | :31:48. | |
said back in 2005, we are nearly a decade on. If this interview is | :31:49. | :31:51. | |
going to be about something I said ten years ago for which I have | :31:52. | :31:56. | |
apologised and stepped away from then... I'm trying to get to this | :31:57. | :32:00. | |
very difficult question of how we define what British values are? I | :32:01. | :32:04. | |
would define British values as freedom, which includes the freedom | :32:05. | :32:09. | |
of religion and belief, I would define it as tolerance, which | :32:10. | :32:12. | |
includes tolerating difference. I would define it as fair play, which | :32:13. | :32:17. | |
means everybody being given the opportunity to succeed in life, and | :32:18. | :32:22. | |
in Yorkshire I define it as having a sense of humour and coming here to | :32:23. | :32:26. | |
do an interview with you probably means I have got a sense of humour. | :32:27. | :32:32. | |
Thank you very much. Officials from the White House, the state | :32:33. | :32:36. | |
department and the army spent an anxious time today trying to | :32:37. | :32:38. | |
persuade American politicians that the price the country paid for the | :32:39. | :32:43. | |
release of Bowe Bergdahl was worthwhile. The US has handed over | :32:44. | :32:47. | |
one member of the Taliban for every year that Bergdahl was held captive. | :32:48. | :32:52. | |
As more information has come to light about the deal, and more | :32:53. | :32:56. | |
rumours swirl about how Bergdahl came to be captured, joy of the | :32:57. | :33:02. | |
soldier's return has been replaced by anxiety at the price paid. We | :33:03. | :33:06. | |
have been to Bowe Bergdahl's home town. | :33:07. | :33:10. | |
Bowe Bergdahl's balloons are still flying in Idaho, even if people here | :33:11. | :33:14. | |
are feeling a bit deflated. The gloss has come off what they thought | :33:15. | :33:20. | |
would be a celebration. This cafe has been the headquarterses of a | :33:21. | :33:25. | |
five-year campaign to free Bowe, it is closed now. This is a book for | :33:26. | :33:31. | |
people to share their sentiments for Bowe. Saturday I changed it and it | :33:32. | :33:38. | |
is now freedom. Not everyone left positive comments, after being the | :33:39. | :33:41. | |
face of the campaign, before and after his release, Sue has been | :33:42. | :33:45. | |
threatened by letter, on-line and in person. They are angry, I think it | :33:46. | :33:50. | |
is a bigger picture than Bowe Bergdahl. I think we are seeing a | :33:51. | :33:55. | |
glimpse of our culture here in America. I think there is a lot of | :33:56. | :33:59. | |
angry people and they just need something to express it at, that | :34:00. | :34:05. | |
they feel is a viable channel of expression, I guess. The President | :34:06. | :34:10. | |
depends his deal to free Bowe Bergdahl... The case of Bowe | :34:11. | :34:13. | |
Bergdahl is still being picked over by the American news networks. | :34:14. | :34:19. | |
Backlash there are the right and left. It would have been offensive | :34:20. | :34:24. | |
and comprehensible to consciously leave an American behind... . But | :34:25. | :34:31. | |
the question is at what cost... . Sun Valley finds itself at the | :34:32. | :34:34. | |
centre of it all. The rich and famous come here for the winter sun | :34:35. | :34:40. | |
and windswept -- summer sun and winter snow, they like it because | :34:41. | :34:43. | |
people leave them alone. This has been a tough week, particularly in | :34:44. | :34:48. | |
Bowe Bergdahl's small town. A small and close community finding itself | :34:49. | :34:52. | |
at the centre of so much negative attention. The lad who used to work | :34:53. | :34:57. | |
in the cafe, when he was taken in Afghanistan people put yellow | :34:58. | :35:01. | |
ribbons around the trees, they helped the family campaign for the | :35:02. | :35:05. | |
release. The joy of him being freed has been replaced by surprise and | :35:06. | :35:11. | |
confusion about the amount of anger and vitriol aimed at people here. It | :35:12. | :35:18. | |
is remarkable. Our community is fatigued by being so excited about | :35:19. | :35:23. | |
Bowe's release and the next day it began to turn. It became vicious, | :35:24. | :35:28. | |
angry and hateful. We had not anticipated that kind of reaction. | :35:29. | :35:36. | |
Dale was planning a "Bring Bowe Home" event, they thought it could | :35:37. | :35:40. | |
be a welcome home party, it had to be cancelled? It is indicative of | :35:41. | :35:45. | |
how polarised we are in our country. That so quickly so many people could | :35:46. | :35:50. | |
be so angry and hateful and try to convict Bowe in the public arena, | :35:51. | :35:54. | |
without hearing his side of the story. Without any kind of | :35:55. | :35:58. | |
investigation. Bowe Bergdahl was 23 when he was captured by the Taliban | :35:59. | :36:02. | |
in eastern Afghanistan. There is uncertainty over why he left his | :36:03. | :36:05. | |
base. His upbringing has been closely scrutinised by the US media. | :36:06. | :36:10. | |
His home schooling, his unusual interests. He's very strong, he | :36:11. | :36:15. | |
likes to meditate, he has a very strong spirit, I'm hoping that | :36:16. | :36:18. | |
throughout this entire time he was able to find an inner place that was | :36:19. | :36:24. | |
nice. That he could go to. He had a very idea listic view that he wanted | :36:25. | :36:30. | |
to help and defend the country he believes in. That is what I got from | :36:31. | :36:34. | |
why he joined the military. He also liked the ballet and fencing and | :36:35. | :36:41. | |
martial arts as very regimented, you do the same warm-ups and the same | :36:42. | :36:45. | |
kind of thing and the army is similar, and that appealed to him. | :36:46. | :36:50. | |
The lease of five Taliban leaders from Guantanamo Bay has had people | :36:51. | :36:54. | |
in the community asking if Bowe's freedom was worth it. I think on | :36:55. | :36:58. | |
balance it was a poor deal. Probably if I'm forced into one camp or | :36:59. | :37:02. | |
another, I'm forced into the camp to say I oppose it. But it is hard to | :37:03. | :37:08. | |
jump up and say I don't want a local boy to come home. President Obama | :37:09. | :37:11. | |
has been criticised for the way he announced the deal, alongside Bowe's | :37:12. | :37:18. | |
parents. I sincerely resent him taking the Bergdahl family and | :37:19. | :37:21. | |
pushing them out front, in the rose garden, and subjecting this family | :37:22. | :37:26. | |
to the firestorm of criticism that swept across this nation. Jenny and | :37:27. | :37:32. | |
Bob have kept out of the spotlight since then, and after threats are | :37:33. | :37:36. | |
being protected. Even his beard has been the focus of unsubstantiated | :37:37. | :37:41. | |
allegations that he's a Taliban sympathiser. In town some have taken | :37:42. | :37:46. | |
their signs down, but most still support Bowe and his family. This is | :37:47. | :37:50. | |
our home boy, this is our child, we are not involved in this in a | :37:51. | :37:55. | |
political but loving heart felt way. They hope when Bowe tells his own | :37:56. | :38:00. | |
story of what he endured t could swing the court of public opinion | :38:01. | :38:05. | |
back in his favour. Do you care about how happy a life was led by | :38:06. | :38:10. | |
the animal on your plate? Increasing numbers of us do, apparently. But do | :38:11. | :38:14. | |
you really care about the sort of death a fish on your plate has had. | :38:15. | :38:20. | |
An organisation committed to animal welfare is demanding that armed fish | :38:21. | :38:28. | |
be stunned before they are killed otherwise the whole experience is to | :38:29. | :38:37. | |
stressful for them. We love to look at our children's literature full of | :38:38. | :38:41. | |
characters from the animal world, horses, pigs, cows. Fish not so | :38:42. | :38:47. | |
much. For whatever reason we haven't taken fish to our bosoms in quite | :38:48. | :38:51. | |
the same way. Perhaps that explains why, when it comes to how we kill | :38:52. | :38:57. | |
them, they don't have the same legal protections as our meals on four | :38:58. | :39:00. | |
legs. In Britain, due to voluntary codes of practice from bodies like | :39:01. | :39:08. | |
the RSPCA, most fish are farmed and dispatched to high standards of | :39:09. | :39:12. | |
animal welfare. But it isn't like that across all of Europe. Much what | :39:13. | :39:17. | |
happens behind the scenes to produce your lunchtime tuna sandwich, for | :39:18. | :39:24. | |
instance, isn't particularly palatable. Now moves are afoot to | :39:25. | :39:29. | |
change that. A Government advisory body has recommended that inhumane | :39:30. | :39:35. | |
practices such as live chilling or asphyxiation, be outlawed at the | :39:36. | :39:42. | |
European level. But such principles have costs. Are we ready to bear the | :39:43. | :39:47. | |
cost for a creature we love to eat but don't necessarily love. One who | :39:48. | :39:54. | |
has done some exploring of the fish central nervous system is with us. | :39:55. | :39:59. | |
She is in Pennsylvania. Joining us from Scotland, the epicentre of | :40:00. | :40:05. | |
British agriculture, is the head of the Scottish Fishermen's Federation, | :40:06. | :40:09. | |
Bertie Armstrong. Why on earth are we worrying about this? As you have | :40:10. | :40:15. | |
just said, the information we have now and have been gathering over the | :40:16. | :40:19. | |
last decade is fish, just like birds and mammals, have very similar pain | :40:20. | :40:25. | |
processing pathways. It looks like they experience pain in the same way | :40:26. | :40:29. | |
that birds and mammals do. If that is the case and we extend birds and | :40:30. | :40:34. | |
mammals welfare, why not fish. This particular concern is with farmed | :40:35. | :40:40. | |
fish, by your argument we should extend it to all fish, fish caught | :40:41. | :40:44. | |
on the high seas as well? Absolutely. Although of course that | :40:45. | :40:49. | |
is an interesting and difficult area in its own right. From an ethical | :40:50. | :40:54. | |
perspective you could argue that unlike a farmed fish, fish in the | :40:55. | :40:59. | |
wild has lived a good life out. It is free to roam the seas as it | :41:00. | :41:05. | |
wants. Perhaps in from a utilitarian, the short amount of | :41:06. | :41:07. | |
suffering it goes through at the end, it is justified in terms of | :41:08. | :41:12. | |
harvesting fish in the sea. You may take the same approach as we have | :41:13. | :41:16. | |
for a farmed fish now and saying given we have Intertek neology and | :41:17. | :41:21. | |
we know how to more humanely kill fish on fish farms, perhaps we | :41:22. | :41:25. | |
should transfer that technology. What do you make of the argument? | :41:26. | :41:33. | |
I'm here with a slightly nervous curiosity. It does sound cranky, and | :41:34. | :41:41. | |
I'm a little nervous that it gets extended to wild capture. We are | :41:42. | :41:46. | |
part of a food chain, apart from the odd Safari accident, but killing | :41:47. | :41:50. | |
happens for food all the way along. There shouldn't be gratuitous | :41:51. | :41:55. | |
suffering, but on the other hand, wild capture fish accounts for 15% | :41:56. | :42:00. | |
of the world's protein. It has to be continued. I'm nervous that we apply | :42:01. | :42:08. | |
elements of crankiness to this. Wild capturing of fish is at the end of a | :42:09. | :42:17. | |
long and happy life and has been happening since biblical times and | :42:18. | :42:24. | |
not regarded as cruel. I'm not sure why we are having this argument. Do | :42:25. | :42:27. | |
you feel you are a crank? No, I don't think so, I'm a scientist, I | :42:28. | :42:31. | |
think we need to use science to inform the decisions that we make. | :42:32. | :42:38. | |
In the same way we want to make those careful informed decision, | :42:39. | :42:41. | |
good commercial decision making doesn't have to be mutually | :42:42. | :42:45. | |
exclusive to that. I think absolutely, we want sustainable | :42:46. | :42:49. | |
fishing, we want sustainable fishing practices and you know if that is | :42:50. | :42:54. | |
going to include humane killing, so be it. It is something that | :42:55. | :42:59. | |
confumers are increasingly interested in. They have this right | :43:00. | :43:03. | |
to, I think they are right to have a long-term view. Just because we have | :43:04. | :43:06. | |
done something traditionally for a long way or historically, doesn't | :43:07. | :43:10. | |
mean to say we can't use new information or technologies to | :43:11. | :43:15. | |
improve the way we do things. If it is the case, as suggested, that fish | :43:16. | :43:22. | |
do feel pain, surely we are entitled or should be expected to accord them | :43:23. | :43:27. | |
the same -- afford them the same consideration as farm animals? I | :43:28. | :43:32. | |
didn't wish to label your guest as a crank, I'm nervous about crankiness | :43:33. | :43:36. | |
being applied to the fish industry. The balance of evidence, of course | :43:37. | :43:41. | |
your guest's scientific credentials are apparent. But the balance of | :43:42. | :43:45. | |
scientific evidence is fish don't feel pain in the same way as humans | :43:46. | :43:50. | |
do. It is just plain different. My worry is about the volume capture. | :43:51. | :43:55. | |
We will catch in the Scottish fleet approaching a quarter of a million | :43:56. | :44:00. | |
tonnes of mackerel. It is caught in a volume way. They are not murdered | :44:01. | :44:08. | |
or badly treated, they are pumped into refrigerated sea water tanks. | :44:09. | :44:11. | |
They are not handled individually, and it is not possible to capture | :44:12. | :44:15. | |
that sort of volume of fish and handle them individually. The real | :44:16. | :44:19. | |
question is what can we afford to do and what is senseth sensible to do. | :44:20. | :44:24. | |
That is the crankiness element that I'm trying to be careful not to | :44:25. | :44:29. | |
insult anybody but to guard against. Do you accept there are certain | :44:30. | :44:35. | |
practical difficulties in the consideration that you are extending | :44:36. | :44:48. | |
to fish. For sure, I want to pick up on the fish feeling pain, that is a | :44:49. | :44:53. | |
given. But we don't feel farm animals feel pain in the same way | :44:54. | :44:58. | |
humans do but we afford them welfare rights and humane killing. So, yes, | :44:59. | :45:03. | |
things potentially become difficult, harvesting large amounts and large | :45:04. | :45:07. | |
catches of fish, absolutely. These are technically challenging, but | :45:08. | :45:10. | |
there are experimental fleets in Denmark and Norway that are | :45:11. | :45:16. | |
modifying trawler boats, that are expressly trying to devise better, | :45:17. | :45:21. | |
more effective ways of maintaining fish in the water. In the same way | :45:22. | :45:26. | |
we heard mackerel are pumped into sea water VATs, -- vats, bringing | :45:27. | :45:33. | |
them on to the surface of the deck and letting them suffocate may be | :45:34. | :45:40. | |
something to avoid if we can put them into vats on the boat. The head | :45:41. | :45:48. | |
of FIFA, Mr Sepp Blatter, had been looking forward to a feast of sport | :45:49. | :45:51. | |
over the next few weeks, instead today he had a bucket of cold water | :45:52. | :45:57. | |
thrown over him by some of the most powerful football organisations | :45:58. | :46:00. | |
amongst his members. He had just finished telling them he was | :46:01. | :46:03. | |
standing for a fifth tour, when representatives of great footballing | :46:04. | :46:06. | |
nations suggested it would be all together better to the game if he | :46:07. | :46:09. | |
stuck to his previous promise to stand down. So is time running out | :46:10. | :46:15. | |
for President Blatter. I'm joined now by the former chief executive of | :46:16. | :46:19. | |
the Football Association. What do you think, is the game up for him do | :46:20. | :46:23. | |
you think? I don't actually think the game is up for him. I have never | :46:24. | :46:29. | |
seen such an array of voices against him such as we see today, players, | :46:30. | :46:33. | |
associations, sponsors and Government agencies. I actually | :46:34. | :46:37. | |
think it is probably one of the most difficult challenges he has faced. | :46:38. | :46:41. | |
But he is quite a good politician in that regard. His comments today are | :46:42. | :46:47. | |
nothing more, or appear to be, if not dedevolutional, they are -- | :46:48. | :46:58. | |
delusional, and show why he shouldn't stand as President. As a | :46:59. | :47:01. | |
President you would unite the organisation, not seek to harvest | :47:02. | :47:07. | |
the benefit of disunity that you have sown. How significant is it | :47:08. | :47:12. | |
footballing nations like England, Holland, opposed to him? You have to | :47:13. | :47:17. | |
recognise the fact, again it is Sepp Blatter very good at doing the | :47:18. | :47:23. | |
maths, with 209 organisations with one vote, UEFA is one of the | :47:24. | :47:27. | |
strongest confederations, it has about 53 votes hast always been | :47:28. | :47:30. | |
significant, because of the quality of the football and the financial | :47:31. | :47:33. | |
aspects of European football. But having said that, there has been | :47:34. | :47:37. | |
over quite a number of years a feeling within the FIFA body that in | :47:38. | :47:41. | |
fact the Europeans have had enough of a role in terms of running the | :47:42. | :47:46. | |
place. There is a bit of discord there generally. So the guys may | :47:47. | :47:53. | |
well rail against the moon. With 53 votes against 209 Sepp Blatter | :47:54. | :47:57. | |
appears confident. I don't think, whilst it is very discomforting for | :47:58. | :48:03. | |
him, I don't think he will be unduly concerned that he won't be able to | :48:04. | :48:07. | |
secure another term. Thank you very much indeed. | :48:08. | :48:11. | |
That's it for tonight. Hope we were clearer to you than the Disney | :48:12. | :48:14. | |
corporation's translation of its film Frozen in the Middle East. They | :48:15. | :48:19. | |
opted for modern standard Arabic instead of the usual Egyptian | :48:20. | :48:22. | |
Arabic, the use of that very formal and some what archaic way of | :48:23. | :48:26. | |
speaking has gone down rather badly with some six-year-olds. A professor | :48:27. | :48:34. | |
of literature has translated it back into English so you can see the | :48:35. | :48:37. | |
problem. # Conceal don't feel | :48:38. | :48:41. | |
# Don't let them know # Well now they know | :48:42. | :48:45. | |
# Let it go # Let it go | :48:46. | :48:51. | |
# Can't hold it back any more # Let it go | :48:52. | :48:59. | |
# Turn away and slam the door # I don't care | :49:00. | :49:07. | |
# What they're going to say # Let the storm rage on | :49:08. | :49:16. | |
Hello, if you have had enough of the heavy showers and thunderstorms we | :49:17. | :49:25. | |
have seen recently, relief is in sight. In fact it starts tomorrow. | :49:26. | :49:32. | |
Most will start the day dry and stay dry throughout the day. One or two | :49:33. | :49:38. | |
light showers dotted about the northern half of the UK. You will be | :49:39. | :49:42. | |
unlucky if you u catch one. | :49:43. | :49:44. |