10/06/2014 Newsnight


10/06/2014

Similar Content

Browse content similar to 10/06/2014. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!

Transcript


LineFromTo

Islamist insurgents seize one of the biggest cities in Iraq, and

:00:09.:00:13.

Washington declares they now represent a threat to the entire

:00:14.:00:17.

region. Government forces simply fled. Can the administration for

:00:18.:00:21.

which so many western soldiers died hold the line against Al-Qaeda's

:00:22.:00:26.

allies. In the Congo the victims of rape by soldiers get their day in

:00:27.:00:30.

court. We follow the efforts to bring the perpetrators of sexual

:00:31.:00:32.

violence to justice. And remember this? You said to the

:00:33.:00:48.

Secretary of State I want to make unannounced inspections? Yes I did.

:00:49.:00:55.

And what did he say? The Chief Inspector of schools unspeaks what

:00:56.:01:01.

he tried to say yesterday. And fish? This is my only first dinner

:01:02.:01:05.

tonight. Is this a crime against animals, do you care whether or not

:01:06.:01:10.

the fish on your plate felt pain as it died?

:01:11.:01:18.

It the Iraq War, which cost the lives of hundreds of thousands of

:01:19.:01:22.

people was fought to overthrow a dictator and to make the country

:01:23.:01:26.

safe for democracy. Today, 11 years after that war began, control of one

:01:27.:01:31.

of the largest cities in the country fell to a group linked to Al-Qaeda.

:01:32.:01:39.

Police and soldiers in moment sul, cap -- Mosul, simply ran away. The

:01:40.:01:44.

rebels are said to have released a thousand or so people from prison.

:01:45.:01:55.

Militants, Sunni rebels are in control of one of Iraq's biggest

:01:56.:01:58.

cities. In many places the security fors just melted away, leaving

:01:59.:02:02.

uniforms and abandoned vehicles behind. It is a body blow to the

:02:03.:02:09.

Shia-led Baghdad Government. I think they are the most significant events

:02:10.:02:13.

to have taken place in Iraq, certainly since the height of the

:02:14.:02:18.

Civil War in 2007. I wouldn't imagine betting they are even more

:02:19.:02:20.

significant than those difficult days as well. What has happened in

:02:21.:02:35.

Mos sum In Mosul is unprecedented. Iraqi security forces melting away,

:02:36.:02:40.

running away, and the political elite in Baghdad not knowing what to

:02:41.:02:45.

do. For many months the western cities of Fallujah and Ramadi have

:02:46.:02:51.

been in open revolt, half a million people reportedly fled as a result.

:02:52.:02:58.

Then Isis and other Jihadist groups started moving into Nineva province,

:02:59.:03:06.

freeing nearly 3,000 prisoners in jail. Air strikes followed but

:03:07.:03:09.

Government forces started to collapse, today the Jew haddists

:03:10.:03:15.

extended their control over the banks of the tigress taking the

:03:16.:03:23.

major airport and other bases. Over 100,000 people fled, these scenes

:03:24.:03:36.

were taken. Victory for Isis extends across to Syria. Imagine you are an

:03:37.:03:41.

insurgent group and take over a whole city, the Central Bank of the

:03:42.:03:48.

city, the weapons, the bases, everything there, that will, Isis

:03:49.:03:55.

was really losing in Syria, they were limited to a tiny little place

:03:56.:04:01.

on the northern edge of Syria and now taking over Mosul, that is a

:04:02.:04:08.

huge boost for Isis. It isn't just that the Jihadists of Isis have

:04:09.:04:14.

captured guns calm glory, they have taken an economic centre and

:04:15.:04:17.

strengthened their position in Syria too. With much of Iraq slipping

:04:18.:04:21.

under the control of Sunni Jihadists, and the Government's

:04:22.:04:26.

inability to export oil and generate revenue now being called into

:04:27.:04:28.

question, there is a real chance of Iraq being dismembered and the whole

:04:29.:04:34.

issue becoming a major international security problem. So how did the

:04:35.:04:40.

Prime Minister, re-elected just two months ago, get into this situation?

:04:41.:04:46.

He has pursued rather aggressive politics of sectarianism, since 2006

:04:47.:04:52.

and increasingly so since he became Prime Minister. He has marginalised

:04:53.:04:56.

the Sunni-Arab community failed to make good on promises made to them

:04:57.:05:01.

by the Americans during the surge and the awakening of the Sunnis that

:05:02.:05:04.

saw the last Al-Qaeda insurgency end. And now what we see is a

:05:05.:05:10.

marginalised, disenfranchised people, not wanting to engage with

:05:11.:05:15.

the Government in Iraq, and into which the message of Isis seems to

:05:16.:05:20.

be extremely strong. America has already said it will give more help

:05:21.:05:25.

to Iraq's security forces, but the shortcomings exposed today show it

:05:26.:05:31.

will take a lot more than a few Humvees or guns to turn this around.

:05:32.:05:39.

Mr Malaki may have to make use of Shia militias as the battle

:05:40.:05:43.

threatens to spread to Baghdad itself.

:05:44.:05:45.

The Chief Inspector of schools wasn't quite made to eat the words

:05:46.:05:50.

he made on Newsnight tonight, nothing so crude, but a bit of

:05:51.:05:54.

clarification, after he seemed to say that the Education Secretary,

:05:55.:05:59.

Michael Gove, rejected the idea of unannounced inspections of schools

:06:00.:06:02.

when it was put to him two years ago. Today the minister's office

:06:03.:06:08.

denied flat out that he had stopped the idea. Sir Michael Willshaw said

:06:09.:06:15.

later on today it was he who decided not to go ahead with the plan. This

:06:16.:06:19.

is what he said last night. We need do it. You saw it two years ago and

:06:20.:06:23.

you didn't do it? That was something I discussed with the Secretary of

:06:24.:06:27.

State and we pulled back. You said to the Secretary of State you want

:06:28.:06:30.

to make unannounced inspections? Yes I did. Has the Secretary of State

:06:31.:06:34.

changed his mind? I think he has. When you put it to him before, he

:06:35.:06:38.

said what? He said we need to look at this and listen to what head

:06:39.:06:41.

teachers are saying about needing to be in the school, prior to an

:06:42.:06:45.

inspection, so they can have a preliminary dialogue with the

:06:46.:06:50.

inspectors about how the inspection should be conducted. So we pulled

:06:51.:06:53.

back on that, so they have now just a few hours. On his say so? Yes. He

:06:54.:06:58.

told you no we're not going to do that? We had a robust discussion

:06:59.:07:03.

about it, and I'm really pleased that minds have been changed. But he

:07:04.:07:07.

has come to see your point of view? I hope so.

:07:08.:07:12.

Now Emily has been speaking to the major players today and has tried to

:07:13.:07:17.

untangle who really said what? This is the row that keeps on

:07:18.:07:29.

giving. There was a furious outburst from the Department of Education

:07:30.:07:32.

after last night, and they flatly denied that Michael Gove had been

:07:33.:07:36.

the roadblock in this, and said that Sir Michael Willshaw had

:07:37.:07:40.

misremembered. I was given a blow-by-blow account by two of

:07:41.:07:45.

Michael Gove's advisers at the time of exactly what happened, it dates

:07:46.:07:50.

back to 2007 when they said Mr Gove was in favour of this. A no-notice

:07:51.:07:55.

inspection, a flash inspection with no notice of preamble to the school.

:07:56.:08:02.

He was in favour in 2009 and 2011 in office, articles to support there.

:08:03.:08:08.

Michael Willshaw came into Ofsted in 2012 and immediately appeared to

:08:09.:08:12.

support the idea of the no-notice inspection, the two were singing

:08:13.:08:16.

from the same hymn sheet. Three months into the job according to

:08:17.:08:20.

Michael Gove's advisers, Sir Michael Willshaw lost his nerve. He had a

:08:21.:08:24.

bad run in with the press, he had lots of interviews that hadn't

:08:25.:08:27.

worked out for him, he didn't want to make an enemy of the head

:08:28.:08:31.

teachers, he lost his bottle and said he didn't want to go ahead with

:08:32.:08:35.

it, Michael Gove went and addressed the head teachers' conference and

:08:36.:08:39.

broke this news, perhaps unfortunately, because it wasn't

:08:40.:08:43.

really his place to be doing it, and he used very incendiary language,

:08:44.:08:50.

talking about Ofsted as the "Spanish inquisition". He really slagged them

:08:51.:08:55.

off, it got Sir Michael Willshaw furious, even though he confirmed a

:08:56.:08:59.

few weeks later that he was dropping the no-notice policy. Briefly

:09:00.:09:03.

Ofsted's response? This is what is so curious, this afternoon the

:09:04.:09:07.

Department of Education put out a press release that put a lid on the

:09:08.:09:11.

whole thing. They said the Chief Inspector has confirmed the

:09:12.:09:15.

education secretary did not ask Ofsted to halt its plans. Seems very

:09:16.:09:20.

clear. So I called Ofsted and said are you retracting those words? No,

:09:21.:09:26.

they are not I was told. Were they apologising or stepping down, no

:09:27.:09:31.

they are not. Why did they sign up to the press release? They said

:09:32.:09:35.

there is no point pick a fight over tittle tattle on a policy on which

:09:36.:09:39.

we broadly agree. They just thought it looked more grown up to let it

:09:40.:09:44.

go. But they are not saying that Sir Michael Willshaw was wrong or

:09:45.:09:49.

backing down, it is over to you and everyone else who is telling the

:09:50.:09:52.

truth here. The Hollywood star, Angelina Jolie, made a passionate

:09:53.:09:56.

speech today about the crime of sexual violence against women in

:09:57.:10:00.

war. Speaking at the International Gathering, organised by the Foreign

:10:01.:10:04.

Office here in London. She said we all had to recognise that there is

:10:05.:10:08.

no shame in being a survivor, the shame attaches only to those who

:10:09.:10:13.

perpetrate rape. It is not, she said, an inevitable part of war.

:10:14.:10:18.

William Hague likened the campaign of sexual violence to the fight

:10:19.:10:22.

against slavery. How to bring the rule of law to the conduct of war is

:10:23.:10:25.

a challenge everywhere. It is very tough work, but not without the

:10:26.:10:30.

occasional success. Fiona Lloyd Davies reports from the Democratic

:10:31.:10:36.

Republic of Congo. This is not Afghanistan or Somalia,

:10:37.:10:42.

it is eastern Democratic Republic of Congo. These women are testifying in

:10:43.:10:51.

a landmark trial. They are veiled for their own projection, the

:10:52.:10:57.

defendants are soldiers from the Congolese Army, accused of mass rape

:10:58.:11:03.

and looting. 39 soldiers and officers up to the rank of

:11:04.:11:07.

Lieutenant Colonel are on trial in a military court. Over 1,000 victims

:11:08.:11:11.

of rape and looting have been recorded. Yet is justice being done?

:11:12.:11:41.

An estimated one. Eight million women have been raped in their

:11:42.:11:47.

lifetime in Congo. Despite the laws against sexual violence being

:11:48.:11:53.

revised in 2006, justice has never been taken seriously as a deterrent

:11:54.:11:59.

here, and a culture of impunity has prevailed, until now. Nadine is an

:12:00.:12:10.

associate of a law firm in the regional capital, Goma. She is one

:12:11.:12:15.

of the prosecuting lawyers in what could be an historic case.

:12:16.:12:47.

Today Nadine is going with a psychologist to the town where the

:12:48.:12:56.

Congolese Army raped at least 76 women and children in November 2012.

:12:57.:13:01.

The area is still heavily militarised, and there are many

:13:02.:13:06.

thousands of disbanded militia. Both the witnesses and lawyers have been

:13:07.:13:08.

threatened and intimidated. This was an ordinary market town,

:13:09.:13:46.

but the local people will never forget that night when several

:13:47.:13:49.

thousand Congolese Army troops arrived. They had been ordered to

:13:50.:13:53.

withdraw from Goma, leaving their own families vulnerable to the

:13:54.:13:59.

invading M 23 rebels. Angry and frustrated the soldiers punished the

:14:00.:14:07.

towns people. This woman was raped and sodomised by three soldiers that

:14:08.:14:09.

night. She has already testified in court

:14:10.:14:27.

and found the experience of being a witness a terrible ordeal.

:14:28.:14:58.

They have arrived in the village. The women know how distressing it is

:14:59.:15:05.

for the rape survivors to come to court and are here to prepare them.

:15:06.:15:11.

The psychologist has been working with one woman who was dragged from

:15:12.:15:16.

her hut and raped by a soldier. At the time her baby was only two

:15:17.:15:19.

months old. The local population don't believe

:15:20.:16:16.

the right soldiers are on trial and think they might even still be in

:16:17.:16:22.

the area. Surrounding the village are more than 2,000 disbanded

:16:23.:16:29.

militia men in limbo. This Colonel is one of them. His men took part in

:16:30.:16:34.

the devastation of the village in November 2012.

:16:35.:17:06.

Locally the suspicion is that the Colonel ordered his men to rape. He

:17:07.:17:15.

denied the allegations. Yet he seemed heavily dependent on his

:17:16.:17:21.

advisers sitting next to him. Below the camp, some people still

:17:22.:17:46.

live in fear of him. Since then the Colonel has left the

:17:47.:18:14.

transit centre, taking his men with him into the forest. No high ranking

:18:15.:18:23.

member of the Congolese Army stood trial. I can mention two or three

:18:24.:18:27.

generals, I would have liked to see them stand trial. But never

:18:28.:18:33.

happened, it didn't fly well with the political regime. In Goma in the

:18:34.:18:39.

regional capital, it is another day in court and Nadine is getting

:18:40.:18:40.

ready. One of the most significant charges

:18:41.:19:37.

against these soldiers is of officers failing to control their

:19:38.:19:41.

men. It has been levelled because only one of the raped women was able

:19:42.:19:43.

to identify her assaliant. This is the man she identified, the

:19:44.:20:12.

reason she is so certain is because he's missing a finger which she

:20:13.:20:15.

noticed the night she was raped. And the secretary Lieutenant says he

:20:16.:20:37.

has a cast iron alibi. He doesn't feel he has seen much

:20:38.:20:56.

justice. It is the day of the verdict. It is

:20:57.:21:22.

just five months since this military trial for war crimes started. For

:21:23.:21:26.

Nadine this will be one of the most important decisions of her career.

:21:27.:21:56.

When the trial started 40 men were accused of war crimes, including

:21:57.:22:05.

rape. Since then one man has died in prison and only 27 were detained.

:22:06.:22:12.

Five of the senior officers accused of failing to control their troops

:22:13.:22:22.

were never compelled to appear in court.

:22:23.:22:30.

It is time for the men to hear their fate. None of the witnesses have

:22:31.:22:36.

come, because it is thought to be too dangerous for them.

:22:37.:23:02.

Second Lieutenant Sabwe is one of only two accused of rape as a war

:23:03.:23:13.

crime who have been found guilty. He has been sentenced to life

:23:14.:23:18.

imprisonment. 18 other soldiers were found guilty of looting, all of the

:23:19.:23:29.

five senior officers were cleared. As those found guilty are

:23:30.:23:33.

graphically striped of their rank, whatever the flaws of this trial,

:23:34.:23:37.

the limited successes should also be acknowledged. It has been brought to

:23:38.:23:46.

a conclusion, many witnesses did come to testify at great risk and

:23:47.:23:50.

there were convictions for rape as a war crime, although just two. But if

:23:51.:24:01.

Congo is ever going to rid itself of the title of "rape capital of the

:24:02.:24:05.

world", there needs to be a much stronger form of justice. The cost

:24:06.:24:10.

to society for impunity is still running very high.

:24:11.:24:48.

With us now is Baroness Warsi, a Foreign Office minister and also

:24:49.:24:55.

minister for faith and communities. Let's start by talking, we will come

:24:56.:25:02.

to the question, the Michael Gove, Muslim schools row in a moment,

:25:03.:25:06.

let's first of all talk about the rape initiative you have going. How

:25:07.:25:11.

big is the operational squad of Foreign Office and kindred spirits

:25:12.:25:17.

involved in it? The number of people attending this conference, this

:25:18.:25:20.

summit will in the end run into thousands. The summit is happening

:25:21.:25:24.

not just in London but across the world. We have over 115 countries

:25:25.:25:29.

attending. But it is not just about the numbers, it is about building

:25:30.:25:34.

momentum, real political momentum. But how many people has the British

:25:35.:25:39.

Government committed to it? We have committed experts, which runs into

:25:40.:25:44.

dozens, we are about 70 or 80 experts have already been chance.

:25:45.:25:48.

What are they doing? They are in a variety of field, some of them are

:25:49.:25:52.

experts on evidence-gathering, prosecution, some of them are

:25:53.:25:57.

working on psychological trauma, Victim Support. Some of them are

:25:58.:26:00.

assisting countries with their legal processes and making sure that the

:26:01.:26:04.

right laws are put in place so we do get convictions. What that video

:26:05.:26:10.

showed, more than anything else s that victims need justice, and they

:26:11.:26:15.

need justice by getting successful prosecutions. One of the biggest

:26:16.:26:18.

aims of the summit is to make sure we sign an international protocol

:26:19.:26:24.

that has been agreed set of international standards, which means

:26:25.:26:27.

that evidence is properly gathered and prosecutions are properly

:26:28.:26:30.

brought to court and we do get convictions and finally some justice

:26:31.:26:36.

for the survivors. It makes you wonder why these experts aren't

:26:37.:26:40.

being sent to places like the Democratic Republic of Congo, in

:26:41.:26:47.

order in order that women can get justice. We are working with

:26:48.:26:49.

politicians to get the right political will and we send experts.

:26:50.:26:56.

We have experts in the DRC working with local commune to ex-some of it

:26:57.:27:01.

is about working with NGOs and faith organises working on the ground in

:27:02.:27:05.

the DRC. These are small steps that we have to continue to take to start

:27:06.:27:10.

to build this culture, trying to build this myth-busting approach to

:27:11.:27:15.

the culture of impunity that exists for these victims. Given that this

:27:16.:27:21.

is now a priority of this Government, are we going to take a

:27:22.:27:26.

more generous attitude towards women who are coming here as victims of

:27:27.:27:32.

sexual violence in war? I think we have always considered the legal

:27:33.:27:36.

aspect of war and rape during war as part of people's asylum

:27:37.:27:40.

applications. I know as a lawyer it was one of the things that would

:27:41.:27:45.

always be put forward as part of an asylum claim. Taking one particular

:27:46.:27:52.

case, a woman from Democratic Republic of Congo waiting two years

:27:53.:27:56.

on to hear whether her application for asylum will be successful or

:27:57.:28:00.

not. Who felt humiliated by the cross-examination she got when she

:28:01.:28:04.

came here about her experience, understandably. Who spent the night

:28:05.:28:08.

sleeping in a telephone box, this doesn't sound terribly sympathetic?

:28:09.:28:12.

I know from the discussions I have had with Theresa May that she takes

:28:13.:28:16.

these issues incredibly seriously the work she has done to champion

:28:17.:28:22.

the lives of women and survivors of rape, domestically and

:28:23.:28:25.

internationally, is a huge priority for her. I can't comment on

:28:26.:28:28.

individual cases, but I do think, and I do agree with you that more

:28:29.:28:33.

can be done in making sure that the rape aspect of a person's claim is

:28:34.:28:37.

brought forward. I know that when I used to hear about claims, in my

:28:38.:28:43.

experiences hearing from the women who left the Bosnian war, but the

:28:44.:28:51.

rape element of the horrific experience would be the last thing

:28:52.:28:54.

to come out. That is incredibly challenging sometimes to try to make

:28:55.:28:57.

sure that the full case is put when you make an asylum claim. Can we

:28:58.:29:01.

talk a little bit about the business of schools in Birmingham and indeed

:29:02.:29:08.

elsewhere? We have heard people in Birmingham saying these schools were

:29:09.:29:12.

singled out because they were Muslim schools, that the action taken

:29:13.:29:16.

against them would not have been taken against them had they been

:29:17.:29:19.

Jewish or Catholic schools, is that fair? I would like to think that is

:29:20.:29:23.

not the case or believe that is not the case. These are incredibly

:29:24.:29:29.

serious allegations which would have serious consequences, it is

:29:30.:29:33.

therefore right that these inquiries that we have on going do complete

:29:34.:29:37.

and we get to the bottom of what did and didn't happen and what was and

:29:38.:29:40.

wasn't said. Are you with Michael Gove, you think that religious

:29:41.:29:45.

conservatism can lead, step by step, to terrorism? I don't think Michael

:29:46.:29:50.

is saying that religious conservatism can lead to terrorism.

:29:51.:29:53.

What I fundamentally believe is you can be religiously observant and

:29:54.:29:58.

incredibly observant, that doesn't make you a terrorist. It doesn't

:29:59.:30:00.

mean you are on the pathway to becoming a terrorist. When he talks

:30:01.:30:08.

about British values, and he cites tolerance and other examples of

:30:09.:30:14.

British values, are these schools implicitly not teaching British

:30:15.:30:20.

values? Most schools will in some form of their curriculum talk about

:30:21.:30:24.

what it means to be British, talking about identity. But British values

:30:25.:30:28.

are values held by British people, are they not? Yes. So if some

:30:29.:30:35.

British parents do not wish to celebrate Christmas, do not wish

:30:36.:30:39.

their children to have sex education in school, those are British values

:30:40.:30:45.

aren't they? Sorry. If some British parents do not wish their children

:30:46.:30:49.

to celebrate Christmas, do not wish them to have sex education in

:30:50.:30:52.

schools, those are British values are they not? Fundamental British

:30:53.:30:59.

value is tolerance and accepting people who are different to you,

:31:00.:31:06.

part of that is looking at different religions, celebrating different

:31:07.:31:12.

faith backgrounds and perspectives. Do you think gay marriage is a

:31:13.:31:17.

British value? I think accepting people for being different is a

:31:18.:31:22.

British value. That wasn't quite my question? If you accept somebody who

:31:23.:31:27.

is different, then you accept somebody who practices a different

:31:28.:31:31.

lifestyle to you, whether that is difference in race, religion and

:31:32.:31:37.

sexuality. I don't want to be too persistent here, but you did oppose

:31:38.:31:43.

the Section 28 legislation didn't you? And I have apologised what I

:31:44.:31:48.

said back in 2005, we are nearly a decade on. If this interview is

:31:49.:31:51.

going to be about something I said ten years ago for which I have

:31:52.:31:56.

apologised and stepped away from then... I'm trying to get to this

:31:57.:32:00.

very difficult question of how we define what British values are? I

:32:01.:32:04.

would define British values as freedom, which includes the freedom

:32:05.:32:09.

of religion and belief, I would define it as tolerance, which

:32:10.:32:12.

includes tolerating difference. I would define it as fair play, which

:32:13.:32:17.

means everybody being given the opportunity to succeed in life, and

:32:18.:32:22.

in Yorkshire I define it as having a sense of humour and coming here to

:32:23.:32:26.

do an interview with you probably means I have got a sense of humour.

:32:27.:32:32.

Thank you very much. Officials from the White House, the state

:32:33.:32:36.

department and the army spent an anxious time today trying to

:32:37.:32:38.

persuade American politicians that the price the country paid for the

:32:39.:32:43.

release of Bowe Bergdahl was worthwhile. The US has handed over

:32:44.:32:47.

one member of the Taliban for every year that Bergdahl was held captive.

:32:48.:32:52.

As more information has come to light about the deal, and more

:32:53.:32:56.

rumours swirl about how Bergdahl came to be captured, joy of the

:32:57.:33:02.

soldier's return has been replaced by anxiety at the price paid. We

:33:03.:33:06.

have been to Bowe Bergdahl's home town.

:33:07.:33:10.

Bowe Bergdahl's balloons are still flying in Idaho, even if people here

:33:11.:33:14.

are feeling a bit deflated. The gloss has come off what they thought

:33:15.:33:20.

would be a celebration. This cafe has been the headquarterses of a

:33:21.:33:25.

five-year campaign to free Bowe, it is closed now. This is a book for

:33:26.:33:31.

people to share their sentiments for Bowe. Saturday I changed it and it

:33:32.:33:38.

is now freedom. Not everyone left positive comments, after being the

:33:39.:33:41.

face of the campaign, before and after his release, Sue has been

:33:42.:33:45.

threatened by letter, on-line and in person. They are angry, I think it

:33:46.:33:50.

is a bigger picture than Bowe Bergdahl. I think we are seeing a

:33:51.:33:55.

glimpse of our culture here in America. I think there is a lot of

:33:56.:33:59.

angry people and they just need something to express it at, that

:34:00.:34:05.

they feel is a viable channel of expression, I guess. The President

:34:06.:34:10.

depends his deal to free Bowe Bergdahl... The case of Bowe

:34:11.:34:13.

Bergdahl is still being picked over by the American news networks.

:34:14.:34:19.

Backlash there are the right and left. It would have been offensive

:34:20.:34:24.

and comprehensible to consciously leave an American behind... . But

:34:25.:34:31.

the question is at what cost... . Sun Valley finds itself at the

:34:32.:34:34.

centre of it all. The rich and famous come here for the winter sun

:34:35.:34:40.

and windswept -- summer sun and winter snow, they like it because

:34:41.:34:43.

people leave them alone. This has been a tough week, particularly in

:34:44.:34:48.

Bowe Bergdahl's small town. A small and close community finding itself

:34:49.:34:52.

at the centre of so much negative attention. The lad who used to work

:34:53.:34:57.

in the cafe, when he was taken in Afghanistan people put yellow

:34:58.:35:01.

ribbons around the trees, they helped the family campaign for the

:35:02.:35:05.

release. The joy of him being freed has been replaced by surprise and

:35:06.:35:11.

confusion about the amount of anger and vitriol aimed at people here. It

:35:12.:35:18.

is remarkable. Our community is fatigued by being so excited about

:35:19.:35:23.

Bowe's release and the next day it began to turn. It became vicious,

:35:24.:35:28.

angry and hateful. We had not anticipated that kind of reaction.

:35:29.:35:36.

Dale was planning a "Bring Bowe Home" event, they thought it could

:35:37.:35:40.

be a welcome home party, it had to be cancelled? It is indicative of

:35:41.:35:45.

how polarised we are in our country. That so quickly so many people could

:35:46.:35:50.

be so angry and hateful and try to convict Bowe in the public arena,

:35:51.:35:54.

without hearing his side of the story. Without any kind of

:35:55.:35:58.

investigation. Bowe Bergdahl was 23 when he was captured by the Taliban

:35:59.:36:02.

in eastern Afghanistan. There is uncertainty over why he left his

:36:03.:36:05.

base. His upbringing has been closely scrutinised by the US media.

:36:06.:36:10.

His home schooling, his unusual interests. He's very strong, he

:36:11.:36:15.

likes to meditate, he has a very strong spirit, I'm hoping that

:36:16.:36:18.

throughout this entire time he was able to find an inner place that was

:36:19.:36:24.

nice. That he could go to. He had a very idea listic view that he wanted

:36:25.:36:30.

to help and defend the country he believes in. That is what I got from

:36:31.:36:34.

why he joined the military. He also liked the ballet and fencing and

:36:35.:36:41.

martial arts as very regimented, you do the same warm-ups and the same

:36:42.:36:45.

kind of thing and the army is similar, and that appealed to him.

:36:46.:36:50.

The lease of five Taliban leaders from Guantanamo Bay has had people

:36:51.:36:54.

in the community asking if Bowe's freedom was worth it. I think on

:36:55.:36:58.

balance it was a poor deal. Probably if I'm forced into one camp or

:36:59.:37:02.

another, I'm forced into the camp to say I oppose it. But it is hard to

:37:03.:37:08.

jump up and say I don't want a local boy to come home. President Obama

:37:09.:37:11.

has been criticised for the way he announced the deal, alongside Bowe's

:37:12.:37:18.

parents. I sincerely resent him taking the Bergdahl family and

:37:19.:37:21.

pushing them out front, in the rose garden, and subjecting this family

:37:22.:37:26.

to the firestorm of criticism that swept across this nation. Jenny and

:37:27.:37:32.

Bob have kept out of the spotlight since then, and after threats are

:37:33.:37:36.

being protected. Even his beard has been the focus of unsubstantiated

:37:37.:37:41.

allegations that he's a Taliban sympathiser. In town some have taken

:37:42.:37:46.

their signs down, but most still support Bowe and his family. This is

:37:47.:37:50.

our home boy, this is our child, we are not involved in this in a

:37:51.:37:55.

political but loving heart felt way. They hope when Bowe tells his own

:37:56.:38:00.

story of what he endured t could swing the court of public opinion

:38:01.:38:05.

back in his favour. Do you care about how happy a life was led by

:38:06.:38:10.

the animal on your plate? Increasing numbers of us do, apparently. But do

:38:11.:38:14.

you really care about the sort of death a fish on your plate has had.

:38:15.:38:20.

An organisation committed to animal welfare is demanding that armed fish

:38:21.:38:28.

be stunned before they are killed otherwise the whole experience is to

:38:29.:38:37.

stressful for them. We love to look at our children's literature full of

:38:38.:38:41.

characters from the animal world, horses, pigs, cows. Fish not so

:38:42.:38:47.

much. For whatever reason we haven't taken fish to our bosoms in quite

:38:48.:38:51.

the same way. Perhaps that explains why, when it comes to how we kill

:38:52.:38:57.

them, they don't have the same legal protections as our meals on four

:38:58.:39:00.

legs. In Britain, due to voluntary codes of practice from bodies like

:39:01.:39:08.

the RSPCA, most fish are farmed and dispatched to high standards of

:39:09.:39:12.

animal welfare. But it isn't like that across all of Europe. Much what

:39:13.:39:17.

happens behind the scenes to produce your lunchtime tuna sandwich, for

:39:18.:39:24.

instance, isn't particularly palatable. Now moves are afoot to

:39:25.:39:29.

change that. A Government advisory body has recommended that inhumane

:39:30.:39:35.

practices such as live chilling or asphyxiation, be outlawed at the

:39:36.:39:42.

European level. But such principles have costs. Are we ready to bear the

:39:43.:39:47.

cost for a creature we love to eat but don't necessarily love. One who

:39:48.:39:54.

has done some exploring of the fish central nervous system is with us.

:39:55.:39:59.

She is in Pennsylvania. Joining us from Scotland, the epicentre of

:40:00.:40:05.

British agriculture, is the head of the Scottish Fishermen's Federation,

:40:06.:40:09.

Bertie Armstrong. Why on earth are we worrying about this? As you have

:40:10.:40:15.

just said, the information we have now and have been gathering over the

:40:16.:40:19.

last decade is fish, just like birds and mammals, have very similar pain

:40:20.:40:25.

processing pathways. It looks like they experience pain in the same way

:40:26.:40:29.

that birds and mammals do. If that is the case and we extend birds and

:40:30.:40:34.

mammals welfare, why not fish. This particular concern is with farmed

:40:35.:40:40.

fish, by your argument we should extend it to all fish, fish caught

:40:41.:40:44.

on the high seas as well? Absolutely. Although of course that

:40:45.:40:49.

is an interesting and difficult area in its own right. From an ethical

:40:50.:40:54.

perspective you could argue that unlike a farmed fish, fish in the

:40:55.:40:59.

wild has lived a good life out. It is free to roam the seas as it

:41:00.:41:05.

wants. Perhaps in from a utilitarian, the short amount of

:41:06.:41:07.

suffering it goes through at the end, it is justified in terms of

:41:08.:41:12.

harvesting fish in the sea. You may take the same approach as we have

:41:13.:41:16.

for a farmed fish now and saying given we have Intertek neology and

:41:17.:41:21.

we know how to more humanely kill fish on fish farms, perhaps we

:41:22.:41:25.

should transfer that technology. What do you make of the argument?

:41:26.:41:33.

I'm here with a slightly nervous curiosity. It does sound cranky, and

:41:34.:41:41.

I'm a little nervous that it gets extended to wild capture. We are

:41:42.:41:46.

part of a food chain, apart from the odd Safari accident, but killing

:41:47.:41:50.

happens for food all the way along. There shouldn't be gratuitous

:41:51.:41:55.

suffering, but on the other hand, wild capture fish accounts for 15%

:41:56.:42:00.

of the world's protein. It has to be continued. I'm nervous that we apply

:42:01.:42:08.

elements of crankiness to this. Wild capturing of fish is at the end of a

:42:09.:42:17.

long and happy life and has been happening since biblical times and

:42:18.:42:24.

not regarded as cruel. I'm not sure why we are having this argument. Do

:42:25.:42:27.

you feel you are a crank? No, I don't think so, I'm a scientist, I

:42:28.:42:31.

think we need to use science to inform the decisions that we make.

:42:32.:42:38.

In the same way we want to make those careful informed decision,

:42:39.:42:41.

good commercial decision making doesn't have to be mutually

:42:42.:42:45.

exclusive to that. I think absolutely, we want sustainable

:42:46.:42:49.

fishing, we want sustainable fishing practices and you know if that is

:42:50.:42:54.

going to include humane killing, so be it. It is something that

:42:55.:42:59.

confumers are increasingly interested in. They have this right

:43:00.:43:03.

to, I think they are right to have a long-term view. Just because we have

:43:04.:43:06.

done something traditionally for a long way or historically, doesn't

:43:07.:43:10.

mean to say we can't use new information or technologies to

:43:11.:43:15.

improve the way we do things. If it is the case, as suggested, that fish

:43:16.:43:22.

do feel pain, surely we are entitled or should be expected to accord them

:43:23.:43:27.

the same -- afford them the same consideration as farm animals? I

:43:28.:43:32.

didn't wish to label your guest as a crank, I'm nervous about crankiness

:43:33.:43:36.

being applied to the fish industry. The balance of evidence, of course

:43:37.:43:41.

your guest's scientific credentials are apparent. But the balance of

:43:42.:43:45.

scientific evidence is fish don't feel pain in the same way as humans

:43:46.:43:50.

do. It is just plain different. My worry is about the volume capture.

:43:51.:43:55.

We will catch in the Scottish fleet approaching a quarter of a million

:43:56.:44:00.

tonnes of mackerel. It is caught in a volume way. They are not murdered

:44:01.:44:08.

or badly treated, they are pumped into refrigerated sea water tanks.

:44:09.:44:11.

They are not handled individually, and it is not possible to capture

:44:12.:44:15.

that sort of volume of fish and handle them individually. The real

:44:16.:44:19.

question is what can we afford to do and what is senseth sensible to do.

:44:20.:44:24.

That is the crankiness element that I'm trying to be careful not to

:44:25.:44:29.

insult anybody but to guard against. Do you accept there are certain

:44:30.:44:35.

practical difficulties in the consideration that you are extending

:44:36.:44:48.

to fish. For sure, I want to pick up on the fish feeling pain, that is a

:44:49.:44:53.

given. But we don't feel farm animals feel pain in the same way

:44:54.:44:58.

humans do but we afford them welfare rights and humane killing. So, yes,

:44:59.:45:03.

things potentially become difficult, harvesting large amounts and large

:45:04.:45:07.

catches of fish, absolutely. These are technically challenging, but

:45:08.:45:10.

there are experimental fleets in Denmark and Norway that are

:45:11.:45:16.

modifying trawler boats, that are expressly trying to devise better,

:45:17.:45:21.

more effective ways of maintaining fish in the water. In the same way

:45:22.:45:26.

we heard mackerel are pumped into sea water VATs, -- vats, bringing

:45:27.:45:33.

them on to the surface of the deck and letting them suffocate may be

:45:34.:45:40.

something to avoid if we can put them into vats on the boat. The head

:45:41.:45:48.

of FIFA, Mr Sepp Blatter, had been looking forward to a feast of sport

:45:49.:45:51.

over the next few weeks, instead today he had a bucket of cold water

:45:52.:45:57.

thrown over him by some of the most powerful football organisations

:45:58.:46:00.

amongst his members. He had just finished telling them he was

:46:01.:46:03.

standing for a fifth tour, when representatives of great footballing

:46:04.:46:06.

nations suggested it would be all together better to the game if he

:46:07.:46:09.

stuck to his previous promise to stand down. So is time running out

:46:10.:46:15.

for President Blatter. I'm joined now by the former chief executive of

:46:16.:46:19.

the Football Association. What do you think, is the game up for him do

:46:20.:46:23.

you think? I don't actually think the game is up for him. I have never

:46:24.:46:29.

seen such an array of voices against him such as we see today, players,

:46:30.:46:33.

associations, sponsors and Government agencies. I actually

:46:34.:46:37.

think it is probably one of the most difficult challenges he has faced.

:46:38.:46:41.

But he is quite a good politician in that regard. His comments today are

:46:42.:46:47.

nothing more, or appear to be, if not dedevolutional, they are --

:46:48.:46:58.

delusional, and show why he shouldn't stand as President. As a

:46:59.:47:01.

President you would unite the organisation, not seek to harvest

:47:02.:47:07.

the benefit of disunity that you have sown. How significant is it

:47:08.:47:12.

footballing nations like England, Holland, opposed to him? You have to

:47:13.:47:17.

recognise the fact, again it is Sepp Blatter very good at doing the

:47:18.:47:23.

maths, with 209 organisations with one vote, UEFA is one of the

:47:24.:47:27.

strongest confederations, it has about 53 votes hast always been

:47:28.:47:30.

significant, because of the quality of the football and the financial

:47:31.:47:33.

aspects of European football. But having said that, there has been

:47:34.:47:37.

over quite a number of years a feeling within the FIFA body that in

:47:38.:47:41.

fact the Europeans have had enough of a role in terms of running the

:47:42.:47:46.

place. There is a bit of discord there generally. So the guys may

:47:47.:47:53.

well rail against the moon. With 53 votes against 209 Sepp Blatter

:47:54.:47:57.

appears confident. I don't think, whilst it is very discomforting for

:47:58.:48:03.

him, I don't think he will be unduly concerned that he won't be able to

:48:04.:48:07.

secure another term. Thank you very much indeed.

:48:08.:48:11.

That's it for tonight. Hope we were clearer to you than the Disney

:48:12.:48:14.

corporation's translation of its film Frozen in the Middle East. They

:48:15.:48:19.

opted for modern standard Arabic instead of the usual Egyptian

:48:20.:48:22.

Arabic, the use of that very formal and some what archaic way of

:48:23.:48:26.

speaking has gone down rather badly with some six-year-olds. A professor

:48:27.:48:34.

of literature has translated it back into English so you can see the

:48:35.:48:37.

problem. # Conceal don't feel

:48:38.:48:41.

# Don't let them know # Well now they know

:48:42.:48:45.

# Let it go # Let it go

:48:46.:48:51.

# Can't hold it back any more # Let it go

:48:52.:48:59.

# Turn away and slam the door # I don't care

:49:00.:49:07.

# What they're going to say # Let the storm rage on

:49:08.:49:16.

Hello, if you have had enough of the heavy showers and thunderstorms we

:49:17.:49:25.

have seen recently, relief is in sight. In fact it starts tomorrow.

:49:26.:49:32.

Most will start the day dry and stay dry throughout the day. One or two

:49:33.:49:38.

light showers dotted about the northern half of the UK. You will be

:49:39.:49:42.

unlucky if you u catch one.

:49:43.:49:44.

Download Subtitles

SRT

ASS