Browse content similar to 07/07/2014. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Noise around the abuse at Westminster and the role call of | :00:11. | :00:17. | |
celebrity accusations has forced there to be an independent inquiry | :00:18. | :00:21. | |
and review. With us is the former child protection professional who | :00:22. | :00:24. | |
raised the alarm that politicians were involved in child sex abuse, | :00:25. | :00:28. | |
and who has given his first television interview in 20 years to | :00:29. | :00:32. | |
the BBC today. The Cabinet Secretary from the 1980s | :00:33. | :00:37. | |
is here to talk amongst other things about a memo seen by Newsnight who | :00:38. | :00:41. | |
suggest it really is the Civil Service in charge of the country. | :00:42. | :00:47. | |
This Nigerian politician embeled millions, did he do it using British | :00:48. | :00:54. | |
aid money and did parliament know about it. It is aid invested in | :00:55. | :00:59. | |
companies alleged to be money laundering fronts for the biggest | :01:00. | :01:03. | |
crooks in Nigeria. If you are not going to prosecute that what are you | :01:04. | :01:09. | |
going to prosecute. Is the Speaker of the House of Commons, John | :01:10. | :01:18. | |
Bosnian Serbing co-right when -- John Bercow says mocking short | :01:19. | :01:23. | |
people is the same as any other discrimination right? | :01:24. | :01:31. | |
This is an extraordinary moment in the life of the parliament, and in | :01:32. | :01:34. | |
the actions of this Government, the Home Secretary has bowed to a | :01:35. | :01:37. | |
prevailing mood in the country in the wake of cases such as Jimmy | :01:38. | :01:43. | |
Savile and Rofl Harris, and the dogged determination of a backbench | :01:44. | :01:47. | |
Tory MP to announce, against expectation, an independent inquiry | :01:48. | :01:52. | |
in the handling of historic child abarks as well as how public | :01:53. | :01:56. | |
institutions deal with the issues of child protection. The Prime Minister | :01:57. | :01:59. | |
has promised they will leave no stone unturned. Was there a serious | :02:00. | :02:13. | |
clean-up needed in parliament. Were some of the most powerful people in | :02:14. | :02:16. | |
the country engaged in child abuse as has been suggested? A BBC | :02:17. | :02:21. | |
documentary broadcast a decade later included an interview with a | :02:22. | :02:25. | |
Conservative whip decribing reasons why the MPs might ask the whips' | :02:26. | :02:32. | |
office for help. Anyone who have in trouble would come to the office and | :02:33. | :02:36. | |
say I'm in a jam and can you help. It might be debt, it might be | :02:37. | :02:43. | |
scandal involving small boys or any kind of scandal. The BLOECHLT has | :02:44. | :02:49. | |
previously ruled -- the Government has previously ruled out holding an | :02:50. | :02:53. | |
inquiry into historic allegations of child abarks today the Home | :02:54. | :02:58. | |
Secretary announced two. Our priority must be finding the people | :02:59. | :03:01. | |
behind these disgust be crimes, and wherever the need to prosecute we | :03:02. | :03:06. | |
will adopt a presumption of maximum transparency. And where there has | :03:07. | :03:09. | |
been failure to protect children from abuse we will expose it and we | :03:10. | :03:14. | |
will learn from it. The first inquiry concerns the dossier written | :03:15. | :03:18. | |
by this man, the now dead MP, Geoffrey Dickens, which he handed to | :03:19. | :03:23. | |
the Home Office and then Home Secretary Lord Brittan. It detailed | :03:24. | :03:28. | |
the activities of a Westminster paedophile-ring, which has been lost | :03:29. | :03:33. | |
or destroyed alongside other relevant documents. I felt it was a | :03:34. | :03:36. | |
country where children could play happily. Mr Dickens campaigned on | :03:37. | :03:41. | |
paedophilia and regularly used parliamentary privilege to make | :03:42. | :03:45. | |
accusations. Newsnight has spoken to one person named by Dickens and | :03:46. | :03:49. | |
wrongly smeared in the 1980s, he said it ruined his life. Put it | :03:50. | :03:53. | |
before parliament that we castrate the buggers. So what do we know | :03:54. | :03:59. | |
about the man behind the dossier. Geoffrey Dickens was a serious man, | :04:00. | :04:05. | |
but until I actually mentioned the word "paedophile" to him, he had | :04:06. | :04:10. | |
never heard of it. And when I told him what was alleged to be going on | :04:11. | :04:18. | |
he took it up with great gusto and started creating these dossiers of | :04:19. | :04:24. | |
which there has been so much trouble and speculation. Why has all this | :04:25. | :04:28. | |
bubbled up now? Well the spiralling revelations about child abuse by the | :04:29. | :04:33. | |
likes of Jimmy Savile and Rolf Harris reached fever pitch with | :04:34. | :04:40. | |
allegations of what Leon Brittan did with the dossier. Names of alleged | :04:41. | :04:49. | |
abusers have been swirling. People need to be careful if we want to | :04:50. | :04:52. | |
protect the victims and let them see justice. We must follow a process, | :04:53. | :04:58. | |
which I appreciate is annoying, if you have something that is exciting | :04:59. | :05:02. | |
and interesting and indeed very important and you want to get it out | :05:03. | :05:05. | |
there and make sure something is done about it. But sometimes, just | :05:06. | :05:11. | |
being a little bit calm about these things can get a better result in | :05:12. | :05:14. | |
the long run than rushing off and saying things in public early on. | :05:15. | :05:20. | |
Among the inquiries into historical paedophilia already, Jimmy Savile's | :05:21. | :05:23. | |
abuse at the BBC, following the revelations from the NHS last month, | :05:24. | :05:31. | |
the Metropolitan Police's post-Savile Operation Yewtree has | :05:32. | :05:34. | |
brought more accusations. And the examination of historical | :05:35. | :05:42. | |
allegations at Fernbridge, and there is a look at care homes and criminal | :05:43. | :05:46. | |
inquiry into alleged paedophile abuse in a residential school in | :05:47. | :05:53. | |
Rochdale in the 1980s. Allegations that the abuse of children was | :05:54. | :05:56. | |
suppressed by people in power. It can feel like another day another | :05:57. | :06:01. | |
abuse scandal, today Theresa May announced a Hillsborough-style | :06:02. | :06:05. | |
independent inquiry, investigating how public bodies from the police to | :06:06. | :06:09. | |
schools handled child sex abuse allegations. Why has the Home | :06:10. | :06:13. | |
Secretary changed her mind and added two new inquiries into the already | :06:14. | :06:18. | |
burgeoning numbers of investigations into child sex abuse in Britain. | :06:19. | :06:22. | |
What can the new ones achieve. It is where we need to be, so we can move | :06:23. | :06:25. | |
on to it and get answers to what went wrong, we can establish who was | :06:26. | :06:29. | |
part of the cover-up and identify some of the perpetrators that are | :06:30. | :06:34. | |
still walking our streets. Do you want a man to represent or a party | :06:35. | :06:42. | |
robot. Cyril Smith's alleged abuse was revealed by Mr Danczuk, but has | :06:43. | :06:47. | |
the Government been pushed into taking action. We feel if there is | :06:48. | :06:53. | |
not an inquisition into something the politicians aren't doing their | :06:54. | :06:56. | |
job properly. There is a real danger we get carried away here. I think | :06:57. | :07:00. | |
the politicians back there are getting too carried away. Back then | :07:01. | :07:11. | |
it took several years to clean the buildings of Westminster, cleaning | :07:12. | :07:15. | |
up what went on there is still on going. | :07:16. | :07:21. | |
We have our guest in the studio, the former child protection manager, and | :07:22. | :07:27. | |
the first one to raise the question of high-profile politicians being | :07:28. | :07:31. | |
involved in child abuse. What is your reaction to the news there will | :07:32. | :07:35. | |
be an inquiry and review today? It is a very positive step forward. I | :07:36. | :07:38. | |
wouldn't want people to think that is the end of the story. It is just | :07:39. | :07:42. | |
the beginning of a process that needs to start now. What about the | :07:43. | :07:46. | |
nature of this inquiry, that people are going to lead it? I think it is | :07:47. | :07:51. | |
absolutely crucial that survivors have the biggest say in who should | :07:52. | :07:55. | |
be in an inquiry, survivors will only come forward if it is people | :07:56. | :07:58. | |
they can trust and people who haven't let them down in the past. | :07:59. | :08:02. | |
When I say people I mean institutions, that survivors have | :08:03. | :08:06. | |
tried to talk to in the past but either haven't been believed or | :08:07. | :08:11. | |
their stories have been seen as not credible because of the size of the | :08:12. | :08:16. | |
galeses that they are making and the seriousness of them. In relation to | :08:17. | :08:22. | |
the NSPCC have you got concerns? From a number of survivors I have | :08:23. | :08:26. | |
spoken to and from a number of witnesses the concerns that they | :08:27. | :08:31. | |
have about the NSPCC is it is very much the charity of the | :08:32. | :08:36. | |
establishment and has for many, many years had people like Rolf Harris | :08:37. | :08:40. | |
and Jimmy Savile associated with the fundraising side of it. What are the | :08:41. | :08:44. | |
claims that you are actually making in relation to historic child abuse | :08:45. | :08:50. | |
centered around Westminster? Obviously I'm not going to say on | :08:51. | :08:55. | |
live television any details that might interfere with any police | :08:56. | :08:59. | |
investigations, but for the last 30 years and longer than that, there | :09:00. | :09:02. | |
have been a number of allegations made by survivors that people at the | :09:03. | :09:08. | |
very top of powerful institutions in this country, which include | :09:09. | :09:15. | |
politicians, judges, senior military figures, and even people who have | :09:16. | :09:21. | |
links with the Royal Family, have been involved with the abuse of | :09:22. | :09:24. | |
children. What was actually happening, can you give us some idea | :09:25. | :09:27. | |
of the seriousness of the allegations? At the most serious | :09:28. | :09:30. | |
level we are talking about brutal rape of quite young boys. Did you | :09:31. | :09:37. | |
take your concerns to politicians say 20 years ago? After an | :09:38. | :09:43. | |
investigation I was involved in was closed down before it had even got | :09:44. | :09:47. | |
off the ground. A senior police officer from the Metropolitan Police | :09:48. | :09:50. | |
and two very experienced investigative journalists and myself | :09:51. | :09:56. | |
had a meeting with a very prominent figure in the opposition party, the | :09:57. | :10:02. | |
Labour Party at that time and we essentially gave the details that we | :10:03. | :10:07. | |
want to give now but nothing came of it. You seem to be suggesting that | :10:08. | :10:13. | |
as far as Westminster is concerned paedophilia was used to create a | :10:14. | :10:18. | |
kind of indebtedness, it was used as a weapon? That's the impression you | :10:19. | :10:31. | |
would have from the statement Tim Fortesque. I'm saying that | :10:32. | :10:35. | |
paedophiles infiltrate every institution, but the more powerful | :10:36. | :10:38. | |
the institution it is, the more powerful the abusers are. And | :10:39. | :10:43. | |
unfortunately parliament, politicians haven't been immune from | :10:44. | :10:49. | |
the I will filtration -- infiltration of paedophiles. You | :10:50. | :10:53. | |
can't name any names, and a number of people that you are alleging, | :10:54. | :10:58. | |
that your survivors are alleging the perpetrators are dead. Are you | :10:59. | :11:01. | |
alleging there are still people in positions of power who were involved | :11:02. | :11:07. | |
20-odd years ago? Very much so. But what I must emphasise is this is | :11:08. | :11:11. | |
what survivors are saying, and the problem up until now is that it has | :11:12. | :11:15. | |
never been tested. There hasn't been the opportunity for survivors to be | :11:16. | :11:19. | |
listened to. And what are allegations may or may not be true, | :11:20. | :11:23. | |
but the allegations are there, and the allegations are against very | :11:24. | :11:29. | |
specific named individuals. The initial impression that I would have | :11:30. | :11:32. | |
is that there is a great deal of truth in them and they need to be | :11:33. | :11:36. | |
investigated in great detail. Please stay with us, thank you very much. | :11:37. | :11:41. | |
So questions both at the heart of the investigations are huge whether | :11:42. | :11:46. | |
some senior politicians in the 1980s may turn out to be paedophiles and | :11:47. | :11:49. | |
whether public institutions in which we trust may have allowed children | :11:50. | :11:55. | |
to be abused. But is this a proportionate response or are we in | :11:56. | :11:59. | |
danger of being swept along in a moral panic. We have our guests in | :12:00. | :12:12. | |
the studio. First of all, do you think this investigation and indeed | :12:13. | :12:15. | |
the review has come at the right time? It seems to me that we are so | :12:16. | :12:21. | |
addicted to inquiries and investigations that it is acquiring | :12:22. | :12:26. | |
a ritualistic, almost pointless character. We are always told this | :12:27. | :12:30. | |
investigation or inquiry will put things right and bring closure, but | :12:31. | :12:35. | |
you will find for many, a long, long time now, we have this continuous | :12:36. | :12:39. | |
obsess why you desire to rummate with the past. It has almost been a | :12:40. | :12:46. | |
psychological displacement strategy that we are losing sight of the fact | :12:47. | :12:50. | |
that there are issues we can deal with the here and now. Some people | :12:51. | :12:54. | |
can't get on with the here and now as we know with the Harrison and | :12:55. | :12:59. | |
Savile case until these things are dealt with probably? These | :13:00. | :13:06. | |
ritualistic performances do not bring closure but incite more | :13:07. | :13:11. | |
denunciations, they lead to more people becoming the target of | :13:12. | :13:16. | |
investigations. A complete proliferation of investigations | :13:17. | :13:20. | |
going on. Obviously it would be awful if anyone who was innocent | :13:21. | :13:28. | |
were accuse of anything of nefarious and terrible as child abuse, but if | :13:29. | :13:32. | |
you were a parent of one of these children, would you not wish for a | :13:33. | :13:35. | |
thorough investigation, for a public investigation to take place? It | :13:36. | :13:40. | |
seems to me that the idea of investigating this historic, these | :13:41. | :13:45. | |
historic wrongs and I'm sure a lot were done, retrospectively invites | :13:46. | :13:50. | |
as much confusion as solutions. In a different climate if you had the odd | :13:51. | :13:53. | |
individuals being investigated that could work. But surely it is | :13:54. | :13:59. | |
actually preferable to have these things investigated and then | :14:00. | :14:02. | |
discounted than not investigated at all? Exactly, to have a culture of | :14:03. | :14:08. | |
secrecy. We have to remember that we weren't going to have this | :14:09. | :14:10. | |
investigation even last week, do you think there is a danger here that | :14:11. | :14:13. | |
what the Government is doing is responding to a rising hysteria? I | :14:14. | :14:18. | |
don't think it is a rising hysteria, I think it is a rising anger. For | :14:19. | :14:23. | |
once I think moral indignation and moral outrage are exactly the mood | :14:24. | :14:29. | |
of the people and the mood that we should espouse at the moment. But | :14:30. | :14:32. | |
that can lead to mistakes? Not always. And could lead to people | :14:33. | :14:38. | |
being beaten up that were innocent? I think it could be if one innocent | :14:39. | :14:42. | |
people were beaten up, but we want justice? People are not demanding, | :14:43. | :14:46. | |
they come from a small section of society. I don't believe that. If | :14:47. | :14:50. | |
you talk to normal human beings they don't get up in the morning and say | :14:51. | :14:55. | |
we need yet another inquiry and judicial inquest, that is not what | :14:56. | :14:59. | |
people are worried about. Is there are a danger of witch-hunts, the man | :15:00. | :15:08. | |
burned in Bristol wrongly accused. You have a witch-hunt and a mob? My | :15:09. | :15:14. | |
church, the Catholic Church only recently was investigated in this | :15:15. | :15:18. | |
way, and they had to turn themselves inside out and people said, and | :15:19. | :15:23. | |
Catholics said is this a witch-hunt? No. I think it is not. The way it | :15:24. | :15:29. | |
has been found out and dealt with in the Catholic Church was specific. We | :15:30. | :15:33. | |
don't have names or anything, I assume, approaching that kind of | :15:34. | :15:37. | |
scale at Westminster? But we are beginning to see a culture of | :15:38. | :15:42. | |
secrecy, and cover-up at Westminster, as there was within the | :15:43. | :15:47. | |
Catholic Church, and I think the same impulses of "we're in power, we | :15:48. | :15:53. | |
can abuse the most vulnerable among you", that is there. Let me ask | :15:54. | :15:59. | |
Peter that, without naming names is what Christine is saying right, that | :16:00. | :16:02. | |
there is a culture of those in power thinking they can do anything with | :16:03. | :16:07. | |
impunity, was that the atmosphere described by some of the survivors? | :16:08. | :16:11. | |
That is my experience and my view, yes. I must say I find it | :16:12. | :16:15. | |
disappointing that after all these years that the views of Mr Fered | :16:16. | :16:20. | |
direction are still being put across in a programme like this, when all | :16:21. | :16:24. | |
we are asking for is to look at the evidence, to listen to survivors and | :16:25. | :16:30. | |
to discount rumours, false allegations and just concentrate on | :16:31. | :16:36. | |
very clear, solid allegations. And once and for all allow the | :16:37. | :16:39. | |
opportunity for survivors to talk about their abuse in a very calm | :16:40. | :16:45. | |
manner to very trusted people. Do you have a concerns about creating a | :16:46. | :16:52. | |
kind of atmosphere where children think particularly of men as sexual | :16:53. | :16:57. | |
predators? I think we already have that, if you look at the way that | :16:58. | :17:01. | |
generational relations are managed in our society, adults, and not just | :17:02. | :17:09. | |
men, but also women have become physically and distanced from | :17:10. | :17:13. | |
children. We have children warned about the danger of strangers to the | :17:14. | :17:20. | |
point of which the spontanity and informality of society no longer | :17:21. | :17:24. | |
exists. I worry about what it causes children. That is a difficult thing | :17:25. | :17:29. | |
to counter? It is true and it is a very price for us to pay. But when | :17:30. | :17:33. | |
you look at the Rolf Harris and Jimmy Savile images and you think | :17:34. | :17:38. | |
stranger danger might have been a good lesson for those children | :17:39. | :17:42. | |
learned. I would rather my children went on the street had a bit of | :17:43. | :17:48. | |
freedom and had independence. And pawed by Rolf Harris. We can make | :17:49. | :17:53. | |
them aware of the risks. Thank you very much. The complex and fraud | :17:54. | :18:00. | |
relationships between Government ministers and civil servants have | :18:01. | :18:07. | |
provided endless fodder for satire, but Newsnight has discovered fury at | :18:08. | :18:10. | |
the heart of Government over what amounts to the job specification for | :18:11. | :18:15. | |
permanent secretaries, a job brief which suggests which many have long | :18:16. | :18:19. | |
suspected that their role is not primarily to serve the Government of | :18:20. | :18:22. | |
the day in an impartial way, but rather as it states, to balance the | :18:23. | :18:26. | |
needs of the politicians with the long-term aims of their particular | :18:27. | :18:30. | |
department. Here is our political editor. | :18:31. | :18:38. | |
You just say everything the Civil Service programmes you to say, are | :18:39. | :18:45. | |
you a man or mouth? Very amutesing. It must be hard for a political | :18:46. | :18:49. | |
adviser to understand this, I'm merely a civil servant, I do what | :18:50. | :18:53. | |
I'm instructed by my master. This was fiction in the 1980s, but is it | :18:54. | :19:00. | |
fact now. Does life imitate art, are today's Sir Humphreys dancing to the | :19:01. | :19:08. | |
tune. The minister in charge of the Humphrey its, Francis Maude has | :19:09. | :19:11. | |
circulated to cabinet colleagues, a document, seen by Newsnight, which | :19:12. | :19:20. | |
he says breaches constitutional propriety, a Civil Service coup. | :19:21. | :19:26. | |
What has sparked the row is a job description for permanent | :19:27. | :19:29. | |
secretaries, or the most powerful officials in the land N it they talk | :19:30. | :19:33. | |
about the needs of balancing the immediate demands of ministers with | :19:34. | :19:36. | |
the long-term aims of the department. For insiders that is as | :19:37. | :19:40. | |
close as civil servants have ever got to decribing themselves as | :19:41. | :19:44. | |
important if not more than elected politicians. If that is the case, | :19:45. | :19:49. | |
that is quite a challenge to our democracy. It is a handful of | :19:50. | :19:53. | |
sentences that alarm politician, a Permanent Secretary, the document | :19:54. | :19:56. | |
says, must have the X Factor, being able to tolerate high levels of | :19:57. | :20:03. | |
ambiguity and uncertainty, and at seems irrational political demands. | :20:04. | :20:15. | |
Then the snappily titled strategic interpretation, civil servants have | :20:16. | :20:19. | |
a pivot point, managing expectations versus leading their department. A | :20:20. | :20:25. | |
pivot between serving and leading, but politicis believe civil servants | :20:26. | :20:31. | |
should always serve. There is much sensible stuff about supporting | :20:32. | :20:35. | |
ministers, enbeginedering trust and so on, but in the most incendiary | :20:36. | :20:39. | |
passage it says permanent secretaries should know how to | :20:40. | :20:42. | |
balance ministers immediate needs with the long-term aims of their | :20:43. | :20:46. | |
department. I think this is an extraordinary document. I mean we | :20:47. | :20:51. | |
are used to being amuse bid the idea of Sir Humphrey pursuing objectives | :20:52. | :20:55. | |
that have nothing to do and can be opposed by the Government of the | :20:56. | :21:00. | |
day. But this is beyond a joke. It is real. We can't have a permanent | :21:01. | :21:09. | |
Government deciding it has its own -- a permanent bureaucracy deciding | :21:10. | :21:14. | |
it has its own priorities against an elected Government for obvious | :21:15. | :21:18. | |
reasons. This does go to some of the problems we are seeing in a Civil | :21:19. | :21:21. | |
Service which is sometimes resistant to change, we can see why. Lord | :21:22. | :21:29. | |
Butler disagrees, over a 37-year Civil Service career, he was private | :21:30. | :21:32. | |
secretary or Cabinet Secretary to five prime ministers. Ministers have | :21:33. | :21:37. | |
a political agenda that civil servants can't get into. Although | :21:38. | :21:41. | |
you are working closely together you have to keep some distance. Is there | :21:42. | :21:47. | |
a single bit of the document you disagree with and wouldn't have put | :21:48. | :21:52. | |
down in black and white? No, I think some of it could have been more | :21:53. | :21:55. | |
straight forwardly expressed. No I think it does reflect the borders | :21:56. | :21:59. | |
that permanent secretaries can't cross. But it is that attitude that | :22:00. | :22:05. | |
has enraged cabinet ministers and in another letter, seen by this | :22:06. | :22:10. | |
programme, the minister in charge of Civil Service reform, Francis Maude, | :22:11. | :22:14. | |
writes to his colleagues and sharing the document asks for their help in | :22:15. | :22:18. | |
writing the fresh job description. He says civil servants don't exist | :22:19. | :22:21. | |
to serve the long-term interests of their department, as the document | :22:22. | :22:25. | |
suggests, but instead they need to serve the Government of the day. | :22:26. | :22:30. | |
Ever since Sir Humphrey was in short trousers there were tensions between | :22:31. | :22:33. | |
mandarins and their masters, this is worse now as the coalition unleashes | :22:34. | :22:37. | |
an aggressive programme of Whitehall reform. It is not possible minister. | :22:38. | :22:42. | |
It is. It isn't. It is. It isn't. It is. It isn't. It is, it is, it is, | :22:43. | :22:50. | |
it is. Tonight some think civil servants have been caught | :22:51. | :22:53. | |
overstating their power. A permanent Government, but will Sir Humphrey | :22:54. | :22:57. | |
always be so steady? I'm joined now by the two people you | :22:58. | :23:04. | |
saw in that film, Lord Butler, and Nick Herbert, the former Government | :23:05. | :23:07. | |
minister leading a cross-party project looking at the reform of the | :23:08. | :23:12. | |
Civil Service. This is really the natural order of things, ministers | :23:13. | :23:16. | |
come and go, and are of mixed ability, you need some continuity? | :23:17. | :23:21. | |
Ministers might come and go and be of mixed ability. Some kind of | :23:22. | :23:25. | |
permanent Civil Service, serving the Government of the day, clearly has a | :23:26. | :23:29. | |
role. But the issue here is whether they should have their own agenda | :23:30. | :23:34. | |
and whether it is legitimate for them to have a different view from | :23:35. | :23:37. | |
that of ministers. It is one thing I think for the Civil Service to warn, | :23:38. | :23:42. | |
counsel and advise, and privately disagree. But they can't actually | :23:43. | :23:46. | |
say, as this document suggests that the leaders of the Civil Service | :23:47. | :23:49. | |
can, that it is legitimate for them to have their own agenda that is | :23:50. | :23:53. | |
separate from the elected Government of the day. You heard Lord Butler | :23:54. | :23:56. | |
saying there was nothing in the original memo he would disagree with | :23:57. | :24:00. | |
but he would have put it more plainly? I was astonished by that. | :24:01. | :24:06. | |
The words speak for themselves, the Civil Service can decide when to | :24:07. | :24:09. | |
serve the Government of the day, that should be beyond without. DOURT | :24:10. | :24:18. | |
doubt. And you have to deal with irrational politicians' demands. | :24:19. | :24:21. | |
Have you ever had to deal with that? Nick may be surprised to know I | :24:22. | :24:26. | |
absolutely agree with him. The job of a Permanent Secretary is to | :24:27. | :24:29. | |
loyally try to deliver the policies of the Government of the day. But of | :24:30. | :24:34. | |
course the Permanent Secretary also has another responsibility. He has | :24:35. | :24:39. | |
to be able to lead a department that can serve a different minister, or | :24:40. | :24:44. | |
serve a different Government. So you can't think that politicians and | :24:45. | :24:50. | |
civil servants are exactly the same. But when the minister decides on the | :24:51. | :24:56. | |
policy it is whole hearted lie the duty of the -- whole heartedly the | :24:57. | :25:01. | |
duty of the civil servants to deliver that policy. The original | :25:02. | :25:04. | |
memo, essentially the job description we were talking about it | :25:05. | :25:08. | |
is said is without constitutional propriety, that is a bit of a slap | :25:09. | :25:13. | |
down? I don't think that is right. It is the permanent Civil Service, | :25:14. | :25:17. | |
that has served the country very well. But the Civil Service doesn't | :25:18. | :25:22. | |
have a policy of its own. Let me give you an example, a Department of | :25:23. | :25:28. | |
Pensions may want to do something to reduce the cost of old age pensions | :25:29. | :25:34. | |
in the long run. If the present minister doesn't want to do that, | :25:35. | :25:37. | |
that is the duty of the Civil Service to do what the minister | :25:38. | :25:40. | |
wants. Imposing long-term priorities, that is another of the | :25:41. | :25:43. | |
things? I think if you have a memo that selects for future permanent | :25:44. | :25:47. | |
secretaries on the basis that they are likely to be able to take a | :25:48. | :25:50. | |
different view from the view of ministers, is to invite them to | :25:51. | :25:53. | |
breach the Civil Service code itself. Article 14 of which says | :25:54. | :26:00. | |
that civil servants should serve with complete impartiality. The | :26:01. | :26:06. | |
Government of the day. When did the Civil Service stop being able to do | :26:07. | :26:10. | |
that, and who do they answer to to have an agenda of their own. You | :26:11. | :26:14. | |
can't have a permanent bureaucracy unanswerable to no-one. The | :26:15. | :26:19. | |
legitimacy can only come from elected politician, and it is not | :26:20. | :26:23. | |
just wrong it is potentially dangerous, if you card getting a | :26:24. | :26:26. | |
cadre of people who think they have a right and role to pursue policies | :26:27. | :26:31. | |
that are not democratically set. The danger is in the words as well | :26:32. | :26:35. | |
"long-term aims", you are not really allowed to have long-term aims? I | :26:36. | :26:40. | |
entirely agree with Nick, that the people who rule. That is fantastic, | :26:41. | :26:47. | |
I love the way you are able to say you entirely agree but disagree with | :26:48. | :26:53. | |
him! I agree but things need to be done in the long-term. We need to | :26:54. | :26:57. | |
produce departments that can serve equally loyally Governments of a | :26:58. | :27:01. | |
different party. It looks like this job speck was written by a civil | :27:02. | :27:05. | |
servant because it can mean anything to whoever is reading it? It gets it | :27:06. | :27:10. | |
absolutely right that civil servants must whole heartedly support the | :27:11. | :27:15. | |
elected Government. But they also do have a long-term policy of being | :27:16. | :27:20. | |
able, a long-term duty of being able to lead a department that can | :27:21. | :27:23. | |
support another minister or Government. You are not in favour of | :27:24. | :27:27. | |
moving to a more American-style system, where actually the Civil | :27:28. | :27:33. | |
Service is of a particular political hue along with the politicians in | :27:34. | :27:38. | |
power? No, I'm not. But essentially with Civil Service reform it might | :27:39. | :27:42. | |
end up moving towards this? There might be some who suggest that. At | :27:43. | :27:45. | |
the moment I think the overwhelming view in this country is we should | :27:46. | :27:48. | |
have an impartial Civil Service, that is required under the law. That | :27:49. | :27:52. | |
requires them to be constantly impartial. It does not allow what | :27:53. | :27:55. | |
this memo suggests, which is that they are some how able to balance | :27:56. | :28:00. | |
their own views, who is to be the arbiter of those views. To whom are | :28:01. | :28:05. | |
they to be accountable with those of the elected Government. It is in | :28:06. | :28:09. | |
plain English. That is not what the memo says, it is for future | :28:10. | :28:13. | |
permanent secretaries drawn up by the Civil Service themselves. Have | :28:14. | :28:19. | |
you had an irrational demand by a minister posed to you that you have | :28:20. | :28:23. | |
had to bat off? Not that I have had to bat off. Ministers sometimes have | :28:24. | :28:28. | |
to make decisions for political reasons that a civil servant may not | :28:29. | :28:33. | |
think are very sensible. It is still their duty to carry them out. Do you | :28:34. | :28:37. | |
put your fingers behind your back and cross them? What do you do, do | :28:38. | :28:42. | |
you say minister this is not tenable or do you go away and say to other | :28:43. | :28:47. | |
civil servantses that you have to move on it because it is not | :28:48. | :28:50. | |
tenable? Suppose the minister says we want to reduce immigration by | :28:51. | :28:54. | |
100,000 over the next two years T may be the duty of the Environment | :28:55. | :28:59. | |
Secretary to I is a, minister I don't think -- to say, minister I | :29:00. | :29:03. | |
don't think we can do that it is not practicable. If the minister says do | :29:04. | :29:07. | |
it? We will do our best. Can I move back a bit to talk about the top of | :29:08. | :29:11. | |
the programme and talk about Theresa May's announcement of both an | :29:12. | :29:17. | |
independent review and investigation. You were around very | :29:18. | :29:22. | |
much in the 1980s and a acceptor civil servant in the 1980s, did you | :29:23. | :29:31. | |
have any idea of a Home Office cover-up of paedophile rings? I was | :29:32. | :29:35. | |
principal secretary when Margaret Thatcher was Prime Minister at the | :29:36. | :29:38. | |
relevant time, I never heard anything about it. Is it conceivable | :29:39. | :29:42. | |
as Lord Tebbit says that there was a cover-up? All I know is what I read | :29:43. | :29:49. | |
in the papers. It says there is 114 files, it is difficult to imagine | :29:50. | :29:54. | |
there could be a cover-up with all that without people knowing about | :29:55. | :29:58. | |
it. At the time were you aware of a paedophile-ring or rumours of child | :29:59. | :30:01. | |
abuse within the corridors of power? No. Not at all? No. International | :30:02. | :30:08. | |
aid is one of the Government's key commitment, but now the Serious | :30:09. | :30:13. | |
Fraud Office is accused of turning a blind eye to alleged corruption | :30:14. | :30:19. | |
involving millions of pounds for aid for Africa. An and Newsnight | :30:20. | :30:29. | |
investigation has found that a department has referred itself to | :30:30. | :30:34. | |
investigation. Tens of millions were veg invested in companies linked to | :30:35. | :30:37. | |
some of Africa's most corrupt politicians. The former aid | :30:38. | :30:42. | |
secretary, Andrew Mitchell is accuses of making misleading | :30:43. | :30:49. | |
statements on the matter. One of Africa's most corrupt | :30:50. | :30:54. | |
politicians are serving a 13-year prison sentence. There is evidence | :30:55. | :30:58. | |
that millions of pounds in British Government aid may have been used to | :30:59. | :31:03. | |
lawneder money he looted. The aid department turned a blind eye. The | :31:04. | :31:09. | |
public money, intended for development aid, being invested in | :31:10. | :31:13. | |
companies that are alleged to be money laundering fronts for one of | :31:14. | :31:17. | |
the biggest crooks in Nigeria. If you don't prosecute that what will | :31:18. | :31:25. | |
you. The department under fire, founded in the 1940s, was previously | :31:26. | :31:30. | |
a small branch of Britain's aid effort, investing in the private | :31:31. | :31:34. | |
sector and known as the Commonwealth Development Corporation. Times have | :31:35. | :31:40. | |
changed. It is now plain CDC and booming on the back of private | :31:41. | :31:46. | |
equity funds. With assets of ?3 billion in public money, Andrew | :31:47. | :31:49. | |
Mitchell says it is the future of aid policy. He says the shift of the | :31:50. | :31:54. | |
market is addressing what he calls a deficiency in the Civil Service's | :31:55. | :32:00. | |
DNA. Critics say it is creating a climate where corruption can | :32:01. | :32:05. | |
flourish. The investment in this case, ?23 million, went from CDC to | :32:06. | :32:14. | |
the American private equity fund Emerging capital Partners, ECB, they | :32:15. | :32:19. | |
put it into a fund which invests in a range of African companies, some | :32:20. | :32:27. | |
allegedly linked to James Ebore, the rut politician. The claim is that by | :32:28. | :32:31. | |
mixing his money with development funds from Britain was able to clean | :32:32. | :32:36. | |
up to lawneder millions he looted from the Nigerian state. | :32:37. | :32:47. | |
We heard from an anglo-African businessman of money laundering | :32:48. | :32:56. | |
going into companies by the corrupt politician. The agency responsible | :32:57. | :33:01. | |
for CDC insisted he was wrong. It has now emerged, behind the scenes, | :33:02. | :33:11. | |
that that DYFID weren't so sure. They publicly continued to deny. | :33:12. | :33:43. | |
This view is now backed up by the parliamentary ombudsman. In a report | :33:44. | :33:46. | |
on corruption, he says that the Metropolitan Police actually told | :33:47. | :33:52. | |
DIFID's anticorruption unit there was evidence going back years, | :33:53. | :33:56. | |
linking the bent Nigerian politician to three of his alleged front men. | :33:57. | :34:01. | |
Yet they still maintain the investments were | :34:02. | :34:03. | |
Yet they still maintain the about. They should have allowed a | :34:04. | :34:10. | |
proper and thorough investigation of the allegation, not just simply | :34:11. | :34:14. | |
refer the allegations to the fund manager and accept the fund | :34:15. | :34:18. | |
manager's denials at face value. The people you were making allegations | :34:19. | :34:22. | |
against, they chose to take their word for it? Not only did they | :34:23. | :34:26. | |
choose to take their word for it, but they took their word for it when | :34:27. | :34:31. | |
there was independently available evidence to the contrary. The former | :34:32. | :34:41. | |
development secretary, Andrew Mitchell assured Caroline Lucas that | :34:42. | :34:48. | |
DFID had no evidence of wrongdoing. He makes a big point that he's | :34:49. | :34:54. | |
writing in extreme depth and he underlines things so he has gone | :34:55. | :34:56. | |
through the letter and hand underlined it. And finally his point | :34:57. | :35:01. | |
is he hopes very much this is the end of the affair and essentially | :35:02. | :35:04. | |
you will stop bothering me about it. To give those kinds of assurances | :35:05. | :35:10. | |
means he wasn't taking the issue seriously or he wasn't in possession | :35:11. | :35:14. | |
of all the facts. Either of those two conclusions is not comforting | :35:15. | :35:18. | |
when talking about the Secretary of State in charge of a good deal of | :35:19. | :35:24. | |
tax-payers' money. Since the year 2000, Emerging Capital partners... . | :35:25. | :35:31. | |
We now know Britain's aid was invested blind. The emerging fund | :35:32. | :35:36. | |
merge from ECP didn't have to say what checks it had made before | :35:37. | :35:40. | |
putting money into companies allegedly linked to James Ebore. It | :35:41. | :35:45. | |
seems astonishing that tax-payers' money is being used in a way that | :35:46. | :35:50. | |
has no oversight. The man who raised the alarm says he's shocked | :35:51. | :35:55. | |
supervision was so loose. It appears that at quite an early stage into | :35:56. | :36:02. | |
the investigations, DFID and CDC decided to ignore the serious red | :36:03. | :36:06. | |
flags about the way those investments were being made. Either | :36:07. | :36:11. | |
to protect their reputation or to protect their finances. | :36:12. | :36:19. | |
At the start of this year, five years after these concerns were | :36:20. | :36:23. | |
first raised about British aid money and the private equity fund ECP, the | :36:24. | :36:28. | |
Serious Fraud Office was finally called in. This month the SFO made | :36:29. | :36:35. | |
its contribution to this alphabet soup of a saga by giving its | :36:36. | :36:40. | |
response. There are, they concede, grounds for concern, there may be | :36:41. | :36:43. | |
evidence of malpractice. What are they going to do about it? They will | :36:44. | :36:49. | |
pass the case on it the Americans. Now they will ask the US authorities | :36:50. | :36:53. | |
to investigate. We seem to be in some kind of Kafka-esque story, | :36:54. | :36:58. | |
where nobody will take responsibility and the buck is | :36:59. | :37:03. | |
constantly passed. In an e-mail to the NGO Corner House, they say ECP | :37:04. | :37:10. | |
is US-registered and it does not appear that CDC have lost out | :37:11. | :37:17. | |
financially by engaging with ECP. That is unbelievable, it is like me | :37:18. | :37:23. | |
arguing that, or the police saying they couldn't prosecute me if I | :37:24. | :37:26. | |
tried to murder you because I failed to do so. And you survived and were | :37:27. | :37:34. | |
thriving afterwards. In Nigeria, the cost of corruption is paid by the | :37:35. | :37:38. | |
poor. The people who ought to be benefitting from Britain's aid | :37:39. | :37:45. | |
programme. The critics we have spoken to are ardent supporters of | :37:46. | :37:51. | |
overseas aid, but despair at what they see is the department to | :37:52. | :37:55. | |
account for its mistakes or correct them. | :37:56. | :37:59. | |
CDC, the aid department's private sector arm says in a statement it | :38:00. | :38:02. | |
remains unclear whether the allegations are true or not. They | :38:03. | :38:07. | |
are proud of their systems but no vetting system is perfect. ECP said | :38:08. | :38:12. | |
in their statement that there is still no evidence to support | :38:13. | :38:16. | |
allegations of improper funding, DFID told us they have implemented | :38:17. | :38:21. | |
new procedures and are happy to look at any new information. Andrew | :38:22. | :38:26. | |
Mitchell said he had nothing to add. Should David Cameron have made a | :38:27. | :38:31. | |
joke that referred to John Bercow as one of the seven dwarves, or is | :38:32. | :38:37. | |
height unacceptable as racism. John Bercow said he was never bothered | :38:38. | :38:41. | |
about being short, but in an interview this weekend he questioned | :38:42. | :38:47. | |
why it was acceptable to question someone about their height when | :38:48. | :38:52. | |
jokes about race or sexuality was wrong. Leave the chamber, get out we | :38:53. | :39:00. | |
will manage without you. You are adding nothing, you are subtracting | :39:01. | :39:03. | |
a lot, it is rude, stupid and pompus and it needs to stop. You are | :39:04. | :39:08. | |
yelling across the chamber, be quiet. Quiet. Calm yourself, take up | :39:09. | :39:18. | |
yoga. John Bercow is the referee of the Commons, and not afraid to | :39:19. | :39:21. | |
threaten a red card from time to time. But after being on the | :39:22. | :39:27. | |
receiving end of some of unkind remarks about his statisticture, he | :39:28. | :39:31. | |
says it is wrong for people to play the man not the ball. Where as | :39:32. | :39:37. | |
nobody these days would regard it acceptable to criticise someone on | :39:38. | :39:40. | |
grounds of race, or creed or disability or sexual orientation, | :39:41. | :39:44. | |
some how it seems acceptable to comment on someone's height or lack | :39:45. | :39:50. | |
of it. Mr Bercow was an athlete in his youth, an outstanding tennis | :39:51. | :40:03. | |
player, a perspective Greg Rusezski. He kinds the jibes schoolboyish. | :40:04. | :40:10. | |
When I saw the comments I thought typical Bercow, trying to get | :40:11. | :40:12. | |
publicity and make himself a victim. It is total rubbish. What a dreadful | :40:13. | :40:18. | |
speaker he is. You have to bear in mind that the smallness of a | :40:19. | :40:22. | |
politician or public figure can be interesting. If you have President | :40:23. | :40:26. | |
Sarkozy of France. He was a tiny little fellow. And he had special | :40:27. | :40:31. | |
high heels, he was some how a more interesting figure because of his | :40:32. | :40:35. | |
very smallness. Speaker Bercow is a short chap, and to see him | :40:36. | :40:40. | |
surrounded by the vast chair makes him a more theatrical personality | :40:41. | :40:47. | |
lend him political power. Let's leave personalities out of | :40:48. | :40:51. | |
this for a moment, and feature interesting facts about height. It | :40:52. | :40:55. | |
seems men of five foot four or less can live for up to two years longer | :40:56. | :41:00. | |
than taller contemporaries. But taller people may be more | :41:01. | :41:04. | |
intelligent, thanks to mum and dad. Apparently clever people tend to | :41:05. | :41:09. | |
seek tall partners, and they may earn more. Perhaps because some | :41:10. | :41:14. | |
bosses link height to status. Height traditionally has been seen as a | :41:15. | :41:19. | |
masculine trait, to be a tall man is to be seen traditionally as a more | :41:20. | :41:24. | |
masculine man. I think perhaps by drawing attention to someone's short | :41:25. | :41:27. | |
stature, in a map, particularly, that would be seen as an insult. | :41:28. | :41:32. | |
There is no comfort in a bus or train, his head catches in the | :41:33. | :41:39. | |
luggage rack. It is not all the upside, as Ted Evans can tell you, | :41:40. | :41:46. | |
England's tallest man at seven-and-a-half foot. Great height | :41:47. | :41:49. | |
can lead to cruel or thoughtless remarks. After extensive research at | :41:50. | :41:56. | |
the next set of desks, we found Hugh Pim, six foot seven of him. Most | :41:57. | :42:00. | |
people if they spot me say do you want a game at centre half big man, | :42:01. | :42:04. | |
or what is the weather like up there. It is the height, and I do | :42:05. | :42:09. | |
feel, and other tall people feel the same, that it is a bit of a liberty | :42:10. | :42:13. | |
isn't it walking up and making a comment about somebody being tall | :42:14. | :42:16. | |
when they wouldn't necessarily, in fact rarely if ever would make | :42:17. | :42:19. | |
comments about people's appearance in other areas. But being tall it | :42:20. | :42:23. | |
seems to be fair game. I'm not sure it is fair game. Order, order. | :42:24. | :42:31. | |
Order. Mr Bercow's view that mocking people about their stature is | :42:32. | :42:35. | |
comparable to racism or homophobia is not backed by the Equality and | :42:36. | :42:43. | |
Human Rights Commission. Long story short, height is not a protected | :42:44. | :42:46. | |
characteristic under the law. That is the beginning and the end of the | :42:47. | :42:52. | |
matter. Joining me now to discuss heightism are two men at five foot | :42:53. | :42:57. | |
four are both a clear two inches shorter than the speaker. We have | :42:58. | :43:03. | |
the founder of the website Support for the Short. And our studio guest. | :43:04. | :43:11. | |
Is the website about trying to stop humour about the question of height? | :43:12. | :43:18. | |
It is making the issue of heightism known. It is not something | :43:19. | :43:22. | |
recognised. I was listening very carefully to-to-what they were | :43:23. | :43:26. | |
saying before I came on. We want to educate people, and show people, | :43:27. | :43:31. | |
especially short people that heightism exists. That people who | :43:32. | :43:36. | |
are short are victims of discrimination. I think it is high | :43:37. | :43:40. | |
time that short people started unifying and acting as a group, | :43:41. | :43:43. | |
rather than just a bunch of individuals. So a bit of pressure | :43:44. | :43:49. | |
group fresh, and you as a comedian use your stature for comedy? That is | :43:50. | :43:53. | |
because people think it is funny in many ways. I don't know whether it | :43:54. | :44:00. | |
is just a new "ism". We're not an oppressed bunch. We have never been | :44:01. | :44:06. | |
stopped from getting on a bus or prevented voting. The only thing not | :44:07. | :44:10. | |
allowed on is a rollercoaster, that is fine because of the height | :44:11. | :44:16. | |
measurements. An "ism", you are talking about genetics, you are | :44:17. | :44:20. | |
genetically five foot four, and black, brown and whatever, why is it | :44:21. | :44:25. | |
different from racism. I think there is a debate to be had. Do we then | :44:26. | :44:31. | |
stop making jokes about people with big noses, sticky out ears. Do we go | :44:32. | :44:34. | |
all the way down the line. I don't know that we do, don't we start | :44:35. | :44:39. | |
living in a duller world. Would it be if we didn't talk about people's | :44:40. | :44:45. | |
attributes, be it height or ears or whatever? We're trying to get this | :44:46. | :44:50. | |
away from the individualistic side of T we are looking at it as a | :44:51. | :44:55. | |
collective trait. When you call somebody a derockry name or | :44:56. | :44:59. | |
disparaging name based on their height, it should be viewed on the | :45:00. | :45:05. | |
way other groups see disparaging words affecting them. Is it | :45:06. | :45:09. | |
discussions, jokes about height actually undermine your confidence? | :45:10. | :45:14. | |
Of course it never helps your confidence to be a member of a group | :45:15. | :45:19. | |
that can be easily and wantonly disparaged at a moment's notice. It | :45:20. | :45:25. | |
is always difficult to combat these things, if you happen to be one of | :45:26. | :45:29. | |
the people that want to combat these things, you will find there is | :45:30. | :45:34. | |
tremendous resistance against you. Can humour be a weapon for you? And | :45:35. | :45:39. | |
that five foot four comedian is not helping matters any. You are not | :45:40. | :45:42. | |
helping matters any? I don't think there is a problem to be helped. I | :45:43. | :45:50. | |
think it is, I don't find it, that height is a very different thing to | :45:51. | :45:55. | |
discriminate against. We are not oppressed. I find the line odd. You | :45:56. | :46:01. | |
never feel you are being patronised because of your height? I had a | :46:02. | :46:05. | |
friend at school the same height as me, and in later years went shopping | :46:06. | :46:11. | |
in a well-known supermarket and fell into a freezer chest, I couldn't | :46:12. | :46:15. | |
help but laugh at that. It would be sad if we didn't. Is it different | :46:16. | :46:20. | |
for men who are short stature or women? I don't know that it is. If | :46:21. | :46:27. | |
it is used as a weapon against you, then that is a fair point. But I | :46:28. | :46:33. | |
think in my experience it rarely is. It is not, I don't get abused | :46:34. | :46:38. | |
because of it. Thank you very much. That's all we have time for. Good | :46:39. | :46:41. | |
night. | :46:42. | :46:44. |