Browse content similar to 17/07/2014. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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It is still not certain why the Malaysian Boeing 777 crashed in | :00:00. | :00:13. | |
eastern Ukraine, killing the it 95 295 people from at least nine | :00:14. | :00:17. | |
countries. We piece together what happened tonight, and as Ukraine | :00:18. | :00:22. | |
accuse terrorists military seperatist we assess who had the | :00:23. | :00:26. | |
capability to bring down the airliner and what the military | :00:27. | :00:31. | |
implications might be. As the crash prompts talks over a truce whilst | :00:32. | :00:35. | |
the incident is investigated, we report on how ever more powerful | :00:36. | :00:40. | |
weaponry is being deployed in the conflict. Israel has launched a | :00:41. | :00:45. | |
ground offensive against Gaza just after a ceasefire was implemented. | :00:46. | :00:51. | |
We will talk to a former Palestinian official inside Gaza. We join | :00:52. | :00:55. | |
President Clinton on a trip to India as he speaks exclusively to | :00:56. | :00:59. | |
Newsnight about the idea of a second President Clinton in the family. I | :01:00. | :01:04. | |
can tell you this all these suggestions that you know she feels | :01:05. | :01:09. | |
entitled to it and all that, that is just not true. That is not true, we | :01:10. | :01:13. | |
have been in too many races over the last almost 40 years now to believe | :01:14. | :01:31. | |
in any such thing as a sure deal. Good evening Malaysian airlines | :01:32. | :01:38. | |
flight MH17 crashed near the border in eastern Ukraine near the rebel | :01:39. | :01:42. | |
held town of Shaktarsk. Six of the passengers were British, the vast | :01:43. | :01:46. | |
majority were Dutch, the latest estimates say 154 of the 295 people | :01:47. | :01:51. | |
on board came from there. Immediately Ukraine's Government and | :01:52. | :01:55. | |
pro-Russian seperatists traded blame for the disaster, which US | :01:56. | :01:58. | |
intelligence agencies suggest was caused by a missile. | :01:59. | :02:06. | |
Hundreds dead, bodies and wreckage spread over a wide area. Most of the | :02:07. | :02:13. | |
pictures are too traumatic to show. Broken pieces of the plane's wings | :02:14. | :02:18. | |
are marked with blue and red paint, the colours of Malaysian airlines. I | :02:19. | :02:28. | |
have just spoken with the Prime Minister of the Netherland and | :02:29. | :02:30. | |
offered condolences on behalf of the Ukrainian people and asked Dutch | :02:31. | :02:33. | |
experts to investigate this act of terrorism. I would like to draw your | :02:34. | :02:36. | |
ascension to the fact that we are not calling it an accident or | :02:37. | :02:43. | |
disaster but an act of terrorism. Malaysian allonlation airlines | :02:44. | :02:50. | |
flight left Amsterdam today, Schipol is one of the busiest airports in | :02:51. | :02:56. | |
the world. It flew east through Germany and Poland before the signal | :02:57. | :03:02. | |
vanished, directly over disputed territory in eastern Ukraine. It | :03:03. | :03:05. | |
should have continued on through Afghanistan and India towards Kuala | :03:06. | :03:09. | |
Lumpur. In recent months seperatists are believed to have shot down a | :03:10. | :03:12. | |
number of Ukrainian military jets over the region. Commercial airlines | :03:13. | :03:22. | |
from British airlines -- British Airways to Lufthansa have said they | :03:23. | :03:27. | |
will divert way from the area. The practice is you could carry on | :03:28. | :03:32. | |
flying commercial aircraft over 35,000 feet over a conflict zone. It | :03:33. | :03:36. | |
happened before in Iraq and in Afghanistan during those crises. | :03:37. | :03:40. | |
Commercial aircraft traditionally would have been beyond the reach of | :03:41. | :03:45. | |
whatever was going on the ground. Clearly with the incident today this | :03:46. | :03:50. | |
may now change. This evening the air pays around Donetsk was closed to | :03:51. | :03:54. | |
all commercial traffic. These pictures from a flight-tracking | :03:55. | :03:58. | |
website showed commercial jets avoiding the whole region. Today's | :03:59. | :04:02. | |
crash will prompt tough questions about why that route was being used | :04:03. | :04:05. | |
at all, given the military tension in the country. | :04:06. | :04:11. | |
Newsnight has seen a notice from the UK's Civil Aviation Authority | :04:12. | :04:13. | |
released just last month warning airlines of a potentially hazardous | :04:14. | :04:19. | |
situation over Ukrainian airspace, particularly Crimea to the south. | :04:20. | :04:23. | |
Due, it says, to the potential misidentification of civil aircraft. | :04:24. | :04:27. | |
Ukrainian officials were quick to blame Russian-backed seperatists for | :04:28. | :04:33. | |
shooting down the airliner. The country's state Security Service | :04:34. | :04:36. | |
posted what it said were telephone intercepts of the conversation | :04:37. | :04:40. | |
between two Russian intelligence officers panicking when they | :04:41. | :04:43. | |
realised the plane was a civilian airliner. The authenticity of these | :04:44. | :04:48. | |
recordings cannot be confirmed and the rebels have strongly | :04:49. | :04:51. | |
recordings cannot be confirmed and involvement in the crash. If a | :04:52. | :04:56. | |
missile was to blame, then hitting an airliner at 33,000 feet will need | :04:57. | :05:02. | |
expensive military-grade hardware. The Ukrainians claim a BUK | :05:03. | :05:06. | |
anti-careful missile system like this one was used, it is accepted | :05:07. | :05:09. | |
that Russia has supplied rebels with military equipment, but there is no | :05:10. | :05:13. | |
solid proof of something this sophisticated, a launch similar to | :05:14. | :05:16. | |
this was reported to have been seen this week near a rebel-held town. It | :05:17. | :05:21. | |
would be a new level of capability for the seperatists in antiaircraft | :05:22. | :05:25. | |
terms, it would have been supplied from Russia, the smaller man-powered | :05:26. | :05:31. | |
systems we have seen in rebel hands in recent months are not capable of | :05:32. | :05:37. | |
reaching an airliner at that altitude, it would be like the | :05:38. | :05:41. | |
system of the BUK and externally supplied. At the crash site it is | :05:42. | :05:44. | |
not clear who is responsible for what is a major disaster scene. The | :05:45. | :06:06. | |
Malaysian Government has warrant it will investigate. | :06:07. | :06:09. | |
You have just come from a press conference and we now know that of | :06:10. | :06:17. | |
the 295, 154 pass engers were Dutch. This is a dreadful moment for the | :06:18. | :06:23. | |
country. It really, in the report they were talking about a national | :06:24. | :06:27. | |
strategy for Malaysia and certainly for the Netherlands, this evening | :06:28. | :06:30. | |
here at the airport some of the relatives have been coming here. A | :06:31. | :06:34. | |
few moments ago an airport bus with about 12 relatives of some of those | :06:35. | :06:39. | |
on board drove past, we had seen others driving past earlier, this | :06:40. | :06:42. | |
time round with 12 of them, blank expressions on their faces. It is | :06:43. | :06:46. | |
just unimaginable the anguish that they are going through at the | :06:47. | :06:49. | |
moment. At that press conference we are told 154 Dutch people on that | :06:50. | :06:56. | |
plane, six British, 27 Australians, 23 Malaysians and a variety of | :06:57. | :06:59. | |
others, French, Belgians and the like. The French Foreign Minister | :07:00. | :07:02. | |
this evening has said that there must be an inquiry into this, rapid | :07:03. | :07:07. | |
and urgent inquiry into this. But certainly with the Dutch Prime | :07:08. | :07:11. | |
Minister returning from an earlier visit to Belgium, cutting short that | :07:12. | :07:15. | |
visit and returning to the Hague this evening, we expect some more | :07:16. | :07:18. | |
words from the Dutch Government either in the coming hours or | :07:19. | :07:21. | |
certainly tomorrow. Was anything said about the investigation, | :07:22. | :07:24. | |
particularly in relation to the black box, because there are stories | :07:25. | :07:30. | |
not confirmed that seperatists in Donetsk have that black box? They | :07:31. | :07:35. | |
weren't telling us anything that I heard about that here at Schipol. | :07:36. | :07:43. | |
They did say that a team from Malaysian Airlines will shorting be | :07:44. | :07:47. | |
on its way to Kiev to launch their own investigation, you would have to | :07:48. | :07:51. | |
imagine that official also do all they could to get their hand on any | :07:52. | :07:54. | |
information they could, especially the flight recorders. | :07:55. | :07:56. | |
Thank you very much for joining us. With us now in the studio is Doug | :07:57. | :08:02. | |
Richardson missiles and rockets engineering for the international | :08:03. | :08:06. | |
defence review. First of all, we heard in that film there | :08:07. | :08:09. | |
possibilities of a BUK weapon. Is that a kind of weapon that can hit a | :08:10. | :08:19. | |
passenger Jetta height? , at that height? As soon as I heard I checked | :08:20. | :08:30. | |
what level -- a jet, at that height? You can work it out, yes, they are | :08:31. | :08:36. | |
heavily radared and traffic controlled network, they have a | :08:37. | :08:38. | |
perfect coverage of what is going on, my suspicion moved to the medium | :08:39. | :08:45. | |
range category. This weapon can it operate without separate radar? It | :08:46. | :08:49. | |
can, normally it does, it is vehicle-mounted, a vehicle has a | :08:50. | :08:52. | |
radar which is all around looking to get the tactical picture. There is a | :08:53. | :08:55. | |
second vehicle, which is the command post, which receives that | :08:56. | :08:58. | |
information, where the commander can decide if something is a threat, use | :08:59. | :09:04. | |
his computers to plan interception and align the job to a missile | :09:05. | :09:08. | |
launcher. The missile launcher then goes on target. But you know this | :09:09. | :09:11. | |
idea that the commercial jets could fly above 33,000 feet, can this | :09:12. | :09:16. | |
rocket launcher not hit targets higher than that? Yes indeed. | :09:17. | :09:22. | |
20,000ms we believe, which is about 70,000 feet. It was no protection | :09:23. | :09:25. | |
really to commercial jets to be flying at 33,000 feet? No. Who has | :09:26. | :09:32. | |
the BUK? The Russians have the BUK, the Ukrainians have the BUK and we | :09:33. | :09:37. | |
have certainly seen film and images of BUK hardware in the seperatist | :09:38. | :09:43. | |
hands. So if all these different groups have it, do all these | :09:44. | :09:48. | |
different groups have the expertise, or is there different levels of | :09:49. | :09:54. | |
expertise, what I'm getting at here, this was a huge passenger JESHTHS | :09:55. | :09:58. | |
would they have had any -- jet, would they have had any idea what | :09:59. | :10:03. | |
they were aiming at? If they had a complete BUK system. The launcher | :10:04. | :10:07. | |
can operate on its own, it has its own little radar in it, it just | :10:08. | :10:11. | |
looks forward. I'm looking at you, I'm not ware of the cameras around | :10:12. | :10:15. | |
here and what they are doing, it is like that. In autonomous mode it can | :10:16. | :10:23. | |
look at what is in front of it and the local commander can decide what | :10:24. | :10:29. | |
to engage. That sounds cavalier, they must have known commercial jets | :10:30. | :10:36. | |
were in the skies? They would have had no way of telling which targets | :10:37. | :10:41. | |
were commercial or military. Is there any way that any passenger jet | :10:42. | :10:45. | |
would know of an impending take? No, no warning at all. Is there any way | :10:46. | :10:52. | |
by looking at the fuselage when the investigators go, that they will | :10:53. | :10:55. | |
know what it was hit by? I should think so, the distribution of | :10:56. | :10:59. | |
schrapnal marks on the wreckage and the way it is broken up will give | :11:00. | :11:04. | |
clues as to what sort of explosives and warhead was used. What do you | :11:05. | :11:07. | |
think the Intelligence Services will be looking for when they piece this | :11:08. | :11:10. | |
together? They will be trying to find out who gave the order to fire. | :11:11. | :11:15. | |
Was it a single launcher operating autonomously, or was this given by a | :11:16. | :11:22. | |
senior commander. What are the technical signs they can look for. | :11:23. | :11:26. | |
Presumably if they find the rocket launcher on the ground, will they | :11:27. | :11:31. | |
have any idea of the target and the trajectory from the launcher itself? | :11:32. | :11:35. | |
They may have, but if there was any information recorded it could be | :11:36. | :11:38. | |
deleted. It is extraordinary, if you think about the USS Finsend they | :11:39. | :11:47. | |
shot down a passenger airliner in 1988, that was you would think the | :11:48. | :11:51. | |
technology would move on? The BUK is an old system now. But the | :11:52. | :11:57. | |
Ukrainian, the Russians and seperatists are still using it? Yes | :11:58. | :12:03. | |
and many other people are using it. The Boeing 777 crash comes after a | :12:04. | :12:07. | |
series of ground-to-air attacks in eastern Ukraine, one of which downed | :12:08. | :12:14. | |
a Ukrainian fighter plane yesterday, Ukraine lay the responsibility at | :12:15. | :12:22. | |
Russia's door for that, but they denied. | :12:23. | :12:25. | |
Picking through the rubble after what pro-Russian rep cysts say was a | :12:26. | :12:33. | |
Ukrainian -- seperatists say was a Ukrainian military crash. For this | :12:34. | :12:36. | |
high stakes battle in the east, the Government has forced rebels out of | :12:37. | :12:40. | |
former strongholds. It has all added to the misery of the people and | :12:41. | :12:44. | |
according to outside observers the complexities and dangers of the | :12:45. | :12:49. | |
conflict. There was a report where the plane went down. Recently we | :12:50. | :12:54. | |
reported that there are as many as 100 armed groups with as many as | :12:55. | :13:02. | |
4,000 men in their membership. That is a lot of groups controlling a | :13:03. | :13:05. | |
relatively small part of the Ukraine. The rebels have been forced | :13:06. | :13:11. | |
back to their heartland of Donetsk and Luhansk. The fear is the next | :13:12. | :13:16. | |
phase of the conflict will be even deadlier urban warfare. The rebels | :13:17. | :13:19. | |
are still claiming their own successes on the ground against | :13:20. | :13:22. | |
Kiev's force, but the tables have been turned from the early days when | :13:23. | :13:26. | |
the east seems to be spinning out of Kiev's control. That's adding to the | :13:27. | :13:29. | |
pressure, not only on the rebels, but also on their friends across the | :13:30. | :13:34. | |
border in Russia. Footage like this has added to growing western charges | :13:35. | :13:37. | |
that Moscow is supplying heavy weapons and fighters. | :13:38. | :13:40. | |
that Moscow is supplying heavy continues to deny. There have been | :13:41. | :13:43. | |
two fact sheets published in recent days, one by | :13:44. | :13:45. | |
two fact sheets published in recent ambassador to the EU, one by the | :13:46. | :13:48. | |
state department in ambassador to the EU, one by the | :13:49. | :13:53. | |
facts and figures, a lot of video, a lot of satellite pictures of things | :13:54. | :14:00. | |
like tanks crossing the border, east to west from Russia to Ukraine. | :14:01. | :14:03. | |
Those kinds of things you can spot. But of course smaller arms or even | :14:04. | :14:10. | |
rockets no-one knows their exact provenance. But Russia has been | :14:11. | :14:13. | |
pretty clearly supplying the rebels and supplying them with more in the | :14:14. | :14:18. | |
last few weeks or so. Families have been fleeing the east's main cities, | :14:19. | :14:24. | |
fearing a prolonged Government siege is more likely than a possible | :14:25. | :14:28. | |
ceasefire. The thing that makes it extremely complicated for everybody | :14:29. | :14:31. | |
is you have smaller rebel groups that aren't necessarily connected | :14:32. | :14:35. | |
with the bigger ones. So for the longest time we said that the areas | :14:36. | :14:39. | |
particularly challenging in a sense that larger rebel groups can make | :14:40. | :14:43. | |
some kind of ceasefire agreement, but it is not necessarily honour bid | :14:44. | :14:47. | |
the smaller groups. Rebels preparing to make their next stand in Donetsk, | :14:48. | :14:58. | |
this on going crisis was the biggest post Cold War conflict in Europe. It | :14:59. | :15:01. | |
is souring relations between the west and Russia. It will make the | :15:02. | :15:05. | |
fall-out from the downing of the airliner hugely difficult to | :15:06. | :15:10. | |
predict. I'm joined by my guest, the acting Ukrainian ambassador to the | :15:11. | :15:18. | |
UK. Good evening. What do you have by way of evidence to call this an | :15:19. | :15:21. | |
act of terrorism, which indeed your country has done? First of all let | :15:22. | :15:30. | |
me start by joining my President to the expressions of sympathy to the | :15:31. | :15:35. | |
victims of the act of terror. We feel it is an act of terror. Ukraine | :15:36. | :15:40. | |
has a sophisticated system of air traffic control, we know all the | :15:41. | :15:43. | |
information about the flight. Moreover, we don't have at the | :15:44. | :15:50. | |
military in the National Guard right now the weapons as capable to shut | :15:51. | :15:57. | |
down the airliner at such a high altitude. Interesting though, | :15:58. | :16:02. | |
because Doug Richardson said a minute ago, you might have heard | :16:03. | :16:04. | |
him, that actually the weapon that was most likely, if indeed this was | :16:05. | :16:08. | |
a terrorist attack, to have shot down the Malaysian airliner was a | :16:09. | :16:14. | |
BUK and that is held by the Russians, and Ukrainian forces and | :16:15. | :16:19. | |
also bicepists in Donetsk. Do you actually have these ground-to-air | :16:20. | :16:27. | |
missiles? We have in Ukraine, but not over the area of the conflict. | :16:28. | :16:33. | |
Reportedly some of the BUK systems were taken by the seperatists while | :16:34. | :16:38. | |
taking the control over the territory which is out of the | :16:39. | :16:43. | |
Ukrainian power now. I know there are negotiations for a ceasefire, | :16:44. | :16:47. | |
but all the debris and the dreadful crash screen is in eastern Ukraine | :16:48. | :16:52. | |
which is in rebel hands just now. What chance do you think that the | :16:53. | :16:56. | |
Ukrainian Government is going to be able to get into that area to do a | :16:57. | :17:00. | |
thorough search and recover bodies and for families all over the world, | :17:01. | :17:06. | |
they need to know that they are going to get their families back? | :17:07. | :17:10. | |
First of all I would like to inform you that the President ordered to | :17:11. | :17:17. | |
create the special investigation commission on the participation of | :17:18. | :17:22. | |
the international experts, including from the Netherlands, Malaysia and | :17:23. | :17:28. | |
the international civilian aviation organisations which is with the aim | :17:29. | :17:33. | |
to ensure transparency and a fair investigation. I have the | :17:34. | :17:37. | |
information, I have heard that the seperatists already found the black | :17:38. | :17:42. | |
box, very speedy, very fast and they are intending to remove them to | :17:43. | :17:47. | |
Russia under my information, this is very suspicious. Probably we will | :17:48. | :17:53. | |
see the same situation as it was during the tragic event where the | :17:54. | :18:01. | |
Polish President was killed in the crash. Just to be clear for our | :18:02. | :18:06. | |
viewers, we haven't confirmation that the seperatists have got the | :18:07. | :18:10. | |
black box, we are only hearing rumours of that, that is not | :18:11. | :18:13. | |
confirmed. Are you going to ask for that black box if it is in their | :18:14. | :18:19. | |
hands to come back to you? If we will have the control over that | :18:20. | :18:23. | |
black box, of course we will act together with the international | :18:24. | :18:29. | |
experts just tone sure the transparent procedures. Thank you | :18:30. | :18:32. | |
very much. Well I'm joined now from -- to ensure the procedures. I'm | :18:33. | :18:49. | |
joined by my guestsures. Thank you very much. Well I'm joined now | :18:50. | :18:53. | |
What do you make of this? First of all I share the ambassador's view | :18:54. | :19:01. | |
that it is the room for doubt is shrinking very rapidly. The plane | :19:02. | :19:06. | |
was clearly shot down, the US Government has now stated that they | :19:07. | :19:10. | |
saw the missile on the radar. It is clear that it came from, it is clear | :19:11. | :19:15. | |
where it came from, from eastern Ukraine. The more important point is | :19:16. | :19:19. | |
the only group of people who have been shooting down planes in Ukraine | :19:20. | :19:23. | |
in recent days are the seperatists together with their Russian backers. | :19:24. | :19:28. | |
The Ukrainian army is not shooting down planes because the seperatists | :19:29. | :19:33. | |
aren't using planes. The only surface-to-air missiles in operation | :19:34. | :19:36. | |
are coming from the seperatist regions, operated by the seperatist, | :19:37. | :19:40. | |
together with the Russian experts who know how to use them. Can you | :19:41. | :19:45. | |
come to you, the allegation will be that the seperatists in eastern | :19:46. | :19:49. | |
Ukraine are getting their hardware from Russia, and now with these | :19:50. | :19:56. | |
dreadful fatalities, surely there will be, if it is proved to be the | :19:57. | :19:59. | |
case that it was the seperatists then the pressure will be on Russia, | :20:00. | :20:06. | |
will be on Vladimir Putin? The fatalities are on a dreadful scale, | :20:07. | :20:10. | |
that is really sinking in. I mean the percentage of Dutch people who | :20:11. | :20:14. | |
were killed in this is greater than the percentage of Americans who were | :20:15. | :20:18. | |
killed in 9/11. If this was an act of terror this is an act of terror | :20:19. | :20:22. | |
on a really serious scale. It does point back to Russia and the | :20:23. | :20:27. | |
Russians have been very quick to react they have already blamed the | :20:28. | :20:31. | |
Ukrainian Government. That seems unlikely, it seems unlikely that any | :20:32. | :20:36. | |
Government would be behind this. The weapons' systems seem most he likely | :20:37. | :20:40. | |
to have brought about this disaster when in the hands of | :20:41. | :20:43. | |
non-Governmental forces. That is the most likely scenario, and in | :20:44. | :20:47. | |
addition to the arguments that you had an incomplete system who were | :20:48. | :20:53. | |
not experienced and shooting down whatever they happened to see. This | :20:54. | :20:56. | |
is the kind of thing that happens when you deliberately destroy | :20:57. | :21:00. | |
authorities and allow arms to go across your own border in order to | :21:01. | :21:04. | |
create chaos. What begins as a kind of political fantasy of Russia that | :21:05. | :21:11. | |
has territories that will fall into line, now becomes an international | :21:12. | :21:17. | |
catastrophe, it is the fantasy meeting reality as large numbers of | :21:18. | :21:21. | |
people have been killed. This idea that it is dreadful catastrophe for | :21:22. | :21:26. | |
295 families, but it is an international catastrophe, and | :21:27. | :21:29. | |
Russia is denying any involvement in this. Tell me from where you are | :21:30. | :21:33. | |
standing, what does it look like for Russia? It looks like very bad news | :21:34. | :21:38. | |
for Russia, of course. The evidence is accumulating that their clients | :21:39. | :21:42. | |
in eastern Ukraine were responsible for this. Inevitably it adds to the | :21:43. | :21:46. | |
international pressures they find themselves under. Not only from the | :21:47. | :21:51. | |
west, but from the nonaligned, whoa on the whole, so far, have remained | :21:52. | :21:54. | |
on the fence with regard to this dispute. If the Russians are wise | :21:55. | :21:59. | |
and they are on the whole pretty shrewd about this stuff, they will | :22:00. | :22:05. | |
work quite hard to distance themselves from the seperatists in | :22:06. | :22:11. | |
eastern Ukraine, and they will support investigations of the | :22:12. | :22:13. | |
incident. They will try to make it clear they get their weapons from | :22:14. | :22:16. | |
somewhere else. They will continue a process already under way, which is | :22:17. | :22:19. | |
gradually letting those seperatists go, and let the Ukrainians reoccupy | :22:20. | :22:23. | |
the east. So what do you think is going on in Moscow right now, | :22:24. | :22:27. | |
tonight? I think there are probably some anxious conversations going on, | :22:28. | :22:31. | |
and they will be looking for ways to minimise the damage and, as I say, | :22:32. | :22:35. | |
to distance themselves from this catastrophe. Is that your analysis? | :22:36. | :22:39. | |
I would disagree a little bit in that it looks like in the last few | :22:40. | :22:43. | |
days the Russians have actually been stepping up their involvement with | :22:44. | :22:46. | |
eastern Ukraine. There have been more weapons coming over the board e | :22:47. | :22:49. | |
there is more evidence of Russian involvement. There were some | :22:50. | :22:52. | |
Ukrainian military successes a couple of weeks ago, there has been | :22:53. | :22:56. | |
a big Russian response recently. So far from pulling out of this or | :22:57. | :23:00. | |
showing any signs of pulling out of it, they have been pushing the | :23:01. | :23:03. | |
border more and more and pushing into it. The question is now whether | :23:04. | :23:09. | |
this is a sufficient wake-up call to anger the west to finally, so we can | :23:10. | :23:14. | |
finally drop the idea that this is some kind of local people, this is | :23:15. | :23:18. | |
some kind of movement with legitimacy, and we can now | :23:19. | :23:20. | |
understand it for what it is, which is a major Russian intervention into | :23:21. | :23:26. | |
the affairs of its neighbours. A major Russian intervention which | :23:27. | :23:29. | |
indeed the international community has stepped back from for a while, | :23:30. | :23:33. | |
do they need to step up to the plate too? Russia has been very successful | :23:34. | :23:38. | |
of playing the game of masking what it is doing, we are sort of | :23:39. | :23:41. | |
involved, not really involved, some of our weapons are there, we don't | :23:42. | :23:46. | |
know how they got there. Now it is time for the west to stop listening | :23:47. | :23:51. | |
to this game and playing by this ridiculous Russian rhetoric and be | :23:52. | :23:54. | |
clear of what is happening, this is an invasion. What do you think the | :23:55. | :23:57. | |
international community should do now about the whole problem in | :23:58. | :24:01. | |
eastern Ukraine, and the problem with dealing with Russia? In so far | :24:02. | :24:09. | |
as this action is concerned, I agree with the ambassador, in principle, | :24:10. | :24:13. | |
it would be good if Russia said now is the time for an international | :24:14. | :24:17. | |
investigation, thus far, unfortunately, they have done | :24:18. | :24:21. | |
exactly the opposite. They have asked Ukrainian authorities to give | :24:22. | :24:24. | |
Russian authorities responsibility for the investigation. Which is | :24:25. | :24:27. | |
exactly the opposite of what would normally happen in exactly the | :24:28. | :24:31. | |
opposite of what should happen. This ought to be a turning point where we | :24:32. | :24:37. | |
begin to destinge given the alternative reality that the Putin | :24:38. | :24:40. | |
regime has been presenting to us. This is some kind of internal crisis | :24:41. | :24:45. | |
and Ukrainian affair, that there is something wrong with the Ukrainian | :24:46. | :24:49. | |
Government and Russia has historical rights. This is an alternative | :24:50. | :24:53. | |
reality we have shown we can live with, but we ought not. I was going | :24:54. | :24:58. | |
to say to the formeram bass do is that the problem -- former | :24:59. | :25:04. | |
ambassador, is it that we in the international community have been | :25:05. | :25:07. | |
sending the wrong signals and almost part of what is going on in eastern | :25:08. | :25:17. | |
Ukraine? Well I don't think we have been very effective, but I don't | :25:18. | :25:20. | |
think the things that we have done have actually been calculated to | :25:21. | :25:23. | |
push the Russians in the right direction any way. To the extent we | :25:24. | :25:27. | |
generate the impression in Russia that this is an east versus west | :25:28. | :25:32. | |
conflict, it becomes much harder for Putin to back off. I accept Anne's | :25:33. | :25:37. | |
point that the Russians have occasionally moved forward in | :25:38. | :25:42. | |
backing the seperatists and then occasionally moved back. They have | :25:43. | :25:44. | |
moved a long way barks they were at one point poised to invade and fight | :25:45. | :25:50. | |
war in eastern Ukraine. Since then they have let the Ukrainian army | :25:51. | :25:54. | |
gain traction and space in the area. The product of this event, this | :25:55. | :25:59. | |
tragic event is I suspect that the Russians will feel constrained to | :26:00. | :26:04. | |
move further in that direction. That is a good thing but at huge price. I | :26:05. | :26:10. | |
wanted to turn the ambassador for the last world, what will Ukraine do | :26:11. | :26:15. | |
and what do you want the rest of the world to do? We need the reaction of | :26:16. | :26:19. | |
the European countries corporately to deal with this tragic event. We | :26:20. | :26:24. | |
need assistance, it is clear enough for us that we are fighting with the | :26:25. | :26:29. | |
military machine, the number three in the world rank. We are not the | :26:30. | :26:32. | |
richest country of Europe, but we are living in the small European | :26:33. | :26:42. | |
home where we together standing for our values. | :26:43. | :26:48. | |
Israel has begun a ground offensive in Gaza with troops landing on the | :26:49. | :26:51. | |
very beach where four Palestinian boys died yesterday. In a statement | :26:52. | :26:54. | |
from Binyamin Netanyahu's office, the reason for the offensive was | :26:55. | :26:58. | |
given as hitting the terror tunnels from Gaza into Israel. While Hamas | :26:59. | :27:01. | |
warned tonight that the invasion will have dreadful consequences. | :27:02. | :27:05. | |
Just before we came on air I spoke to our correspondent in Tel Aviv. | :27:06. | :27:14. | |
Do you think there was an inevitability that the Israelis | :27:15. | :27:18. | |
would launch a ground invasion, or did something happen today to make | :27:19. | :27:22. | |
that? The Israelis say that they were all prepared for a ceasefire. | :27:23. | :27:26. | |
That Egypt had brokered a deal and that Hamas rejected it. We have take | :27:27. | :27:34. | |
that with a heavy pinch of salt. Neither Egypt for the Israelis are | :27:35. | :27:37. | |
friends of Hamas. But the one thing that does seem to have tipped the | :27:38. | :27:41. | |
balance in favour of a ground invasion was this attempted | :27:42. | :27:44. | |
incursion, infiltration, if you like, by heavily armed Palestinian | :27:45. | :27:49. | |
gunmen from Gaza this morning into Israeli territory. Their | :27:50. | :27:55. | |
rocket-propelled grenades and they had automatic weapons. They were | :27:56. | :28:00. | |
intending to target a kibbutz inside Israel proper. 13 gunmen tried to | :28:01. | :28:03. | |
make it through. We were down in that area today and there was a huge | :28:04. | :28:10. | |
military operation taking place on the Israeli side, lots of heavy | :28:11. | :28:16. | |
armour and well-armed troops. So Israel it does seem that particular | :28:17. | :28:23. | |
event has pushed Israel further. There are consequences to a ground | :28:24. | :28:28. | |
incursion, we have already seen 230 civilian, Palestinian civilians | :28:29. | :28:35. | |
killed through aerial bombardments and naval bombardments, . Gaza is | :28:36. | :28:49. | |
highly prop populated and Hamas are known to put people as shields. Will | :28:50. | :28:55. | |
Israel have Hamas under the thumb after all this? I spoke to a Israeli | :28:56. | :29:00. | |
official a while a he said we are not looking for some kind of Band | :29:01. | :29:04. | |
Aid solution here, we want something more than that. Israel is not intent | :29:05. | :29:09. | |
on a temporary pause in stopping Hamas rockets. It wants to stop them | :29:10. | :29:17. | |
permanently. Is it realistic? Probably not, Israel has to attempt | :29:18. | :29:21. | |
that. You can't do it from air or sea, if you want to get to the | :29:22. | :29:27. | |
supplies that Gaza has in its many thousands you need boots on the | :29:28. | :29:30. | |
ground. When it comes to boots on the ground you start getting Israeli | :29:31. | :29:38. | |
casualties. We are ten days in to Operation Protective Edge, as it was | :29:39. | :29:44. | |
called. Only one dead Israeli but many Palestinians. That won't remain | :29:45. | :29:48. | |
the case when Israeli troops are on the ground. We have seen when they | :29:49. | :29:54. | |
made a small incursion a few days ago that they suffered casualties, | :29:55. | :29:59. | |
only light ones but when you send in so many troops, and commanders deep | :30:00. | :30:04. | |
on the beach in gas star, they will be backed up by troops on the | :30:05. | :30:09. | |
ground. The likelihood for casualties on both sides increases | :30:10. | :30:15. | |
dramatically. I spoke to my guest, a professor of political science in | :30:16. | :30:19. | |
Gaza via Skype. After the efforts by Egypt and many | :30:20. | :30:24. | |
other countries in the region to try to broker a ceasefire between Hamas | :30:25. | :30:30. | |
and the Israelis and these efforts did not lead to our positive | :30:31. | :30:35. | |
results, it was expected that the Israelis sooner or later would start | :30:36. | :30:39. | |
a ground invasion against the Gaza strip. But I have to admit we didn't | :30:40. | :30:44. | |
think it would happen tonight. We hope were hoping that there will be | :30:45. | :30:50. | |
a new ceasefire within the coming 48 hours, it seems to me that the | :30:51. | :30:57. | |
operations by Hamas operatives today in which Tony Blair team members of | :30:58. | :31:01. | |
Hamas infiltrated from a tunnel inside Israel, that put more | :31:02. | :31:06. | |
pressure on the Israeli army to try to invade limited areas of the Gaza | :31:07. | :31:11. | |
strip to respond back against the infiltration of Hamas members. | :31:12. | :31:17. | |
Do you think in fact this might finally put paid to Hamas's | :31:18. | :31:23. | |
strength? It seems to me that Hamas is gaining some support for its be | :31:24. | :31:32. | |
launching missiles against Israeli towns and villages. It will be too | :31:33. | :31:36. | |
early to see what the Palestinian mood is. Let me say in my duty to | :31:37. | :31:41. | |
Palestinians, that they are angry and tired of this repeated scenario, | :31:42. | :31:49. | |
for the past six years this is war number three against the Gaza strip. | :31:50. | :31:55. | |
Now I would imagine that the Palestinians are sick and tired of | :31:56. | :32:01. | |
being subjected to an Israeli war and Israeli aggression. This is not | :32:02. | :32:09. | |
the time to criticise Hamas, whether right or wrong. The Palestinians | :32:10. | :32:14. | |
refrain at the moment to get beside Hamas. The majority are keeping | :32:15. | :32:19. | |
silent to what is happening right now. But once this war is over I | :32:20. | :32:30. | |
will be very definite that the Palestinians evaluate what they have | :32:31. | :32:34. | |
gained and lost from this war. And that would be the time to see | :32:35. | :32:40. | |
whether Hamas has gained or not. Isn't this a chance for the | :32:41. | :32:44. | |
Palestinian Authority and Fatah to exert some kind of influence and | :32:45. | :32:48. | |
control over Hamas. This is your last chance? A reconciliation | :32:49. | :32:57. | |
agreement was reached on April 23rd three months ago, and a new | :32:58. | :33:01. | |
Government was put into effect on June 2nd, with the approval of | :33:02. | :33:07. | |
Hamas. It seems to me the Palestinian President, Abbas, is | :33:08. | :33:10. | |
trying through his diplomatic means to convince Hamas to agree to a | :33:11. | :33:15. | |
ceasefire with the Israelis, but he wasn't able to convince them Hamas | :33:16. | :33:23. | |
is basically behaving as the de facto party here in the Gaza strip. | :33:24. | :33:30. | |
They do not listen to either the President or Fatah. That might have | :33:31. | :33:35. | |
even bigger ramification force the continuation of the unity Government | :33:36. | :33:42. | |
between Hamas and Fatah. Once the war is over. | :33:43. | :33:45. | |
Israel's ambassador to the UK is with me now. Was the decision to | :33:46. | :33:54. | |
invade taken today as a result of the attempt and on incursion into | :33:55. | :33:57. | |
invade taken today as a result of the kibbutz or what is the plan? | :33:58. | :34:01. | |
This is a phased operation, even in the face of these 1,500 rockets | :34:02. | :34:07. | |
fired on us, we wanted to give Hamas the chance not to escalate, we | :34:08. | :34:13. | |
wanted to deescalate, that is why we accepted the Egyptian ceasefire | :34:14. | :34:16. | |
proposal and a humanitarian window today. It was always going to be a | :34:17. | :34:22. | |
humanitarian window and resumption of hostilities? Even in the face of | :34:23. | :34:28. | |
it we saw no attempt for Hamas to escalate. The point of the | :34:29. | :34:31. | |
escalation is not just in the missile, we have had 1,500 rockets | :34:32. | :34:37. | |
and missiles this month. Also as you said a number of new lethal attacks | :34:38. | :34:42. | |
including from the sea and these terror tunnels. Including the tunnel | :34:43. | :34:46. | |
today. We are in a situation where you have had one fatality and the | :34:47. | :34:50. | |
Palestinians have had nearly 300, most of which are civilians, and | :34:51. | :34:54. | |
after the four boys yesterday we had three children on a roof feeding | :34:55. | :34:58. | |
pigeons. This is not going to be pretty at all for the Israelis | :34:59. | :35:02. | |
either when we grow on the ground. That is why we have tried to avoid | :35:03. | :35:07. | |
it and not escalate it. In a situation where Hamas insists on | :35:08. | :35:14. | |
that, and increasing the number of missiles. The civilian toll is | :35:15. | :35:22. | |
tragic. Pickly our President apologised today for the tragic | :35:23. | :35:25. | |
incident of the three boys. It is worth rembering today that just | :35:26. | :35:28. | |
today we felt, as we have been pointing to, our stockpile of Hamas | :35:29. | :35:34. | |
rockets inside a UN school. When you have that sort of situation... . You | :35:35. | :35:39. | |
perhaps heard earlier in the programme the comment that this | :35:40. | :35:42. | |
could never be actually won or lost from the air, it had to be a ground | :35:43. | :35:51. | |
offensive if you were able to make a point. If you believe the | :35:52. | :35:55. | |
Palestinians will put up people as human shields you will kill more | :35:56. | :36:00. | |
civilians and cause fatalities. You were in there for eight years are | :36:01. | :36:07. | |
you trying to wipe out Hamas? We have made the pledges clear, we have | :36:08. | :36:10. | |
a situation where 5 million Israelis, more than 50% of our | :36:11. | :36:17. | |
population, has to reach within bomb shelters because the Gaza strip | :36:18. | :36:21. | |
doesn't stop firing missiles, if they don't stop we will have to. You | :36:22. | :36:24. | |
know what the Palestinian people want is peace. Therefore what you of | :36:25. | :36:32. | |
have have to do is negotiate for the majority of the people. We were | :36:33. | :36:41. | |
trying hard to negotiate with the Palestinians, but Hamas is not | :36:42. | :36:44. | |
interested in negotiating, they have made it clear, they have not problem | :36:45. | :36:50. | |
with, they are not thinking about peace, they are thinking about how | :36:51. | :36:53. | |
to destroy the state of Israel. All conflict has to be resolved by | :36:54. | :36:56. | |
negotiation one way or another. You say Hamas is not interested in | :36:57. | :37:01. | |
negotiating, would the Israelis negotiate with Hamas? The British | :37:02. | :37:05. | |
Government won't. Either it is a terrorist organisation, here it is a | :37:06. | :37:08. | |
terrorist organisation, here in Europe it is throughout the world. | :37:09. | :37:13. | |
When will you leave the Gaza strip who will term when you leave? When | :37:14. | :37:19. | |
we can in a way that security of our people. We pulled out 8,000 Israelis | :37:20. | :37:29. | |
and dismandled every settlement and left the greenhouses for an | :37:30. | :37:38. | |
agricultural culture. And Hamas came in and pulled everyone out. We will | :37:39. | :37:42. | |
move out if we can ensure the security of our country. | :37:43. | :37:48. | |
Once an American President always an American President, they keep their | :37:49. | :37:53. | |
title for life. Bill Clinton hasn't been in the Oval Office for ten | :37:54. | :37:58. | |
years. He talks about the deal he made with Hillary when she first ran | :37:59. | :38:03. | |
for the Senate. He was speaking in India as he toured projects on food | :38:04. | :38:08. | |
production, education and women's wealth supported by the Clinton | :38:09. | :38:12. | |
foundation. She sat down and asked him how central the idea of equality | :38:13. | :38:16. | |
is to his work? We have a very special emphasis on it. Not just | :38:17. | :38:26. | |
women with HIV/AIDS or tuberculosis or Malaria, or the need to prevent | :38:27. | :38:31. | |
mother-to-child transition. But the overall focus we had to have to | :38:32. | :38:35. | |
empower women, which requires them to have access to good healthcare. | :38:36. | :38:47. | |
We are really trying to meet with all these empowerment groups. It is | :38:48. | :38:52. | |
an issue Hillary started calling "no ceilings". We want to be supportive | :38:53. | :38:56. | |
of them and not do things that we think are good if they can be a part | :38:57. | :39:00. | |
of what we are doing. We want to give them a chance to make the most | :39:01. | :39:03. | |
of their lives. How do you do that in a country that institutionised | :39:04. | :39:09. | |
inequality through the caste system that says some Indians are better | :39:10. | :39:14. | |
than others Indians. You have to fight it and you have to do it, I | :39:15. | :39:23. | |
think, in wherever possible specific concrete ways. Th don't raise all | :39:24. | :39:31. | |
the cultural red flags. If you find something specific that is | :39:32. | :39:34. | |
empowering for women and girls, then you can build on it and make it | :39:35. | :39:38. | |
bigger and better. You are a globalist, you believe in the wider | :39:39. | :39:44. | |
world here. Politically militarily, America now seems to be moving | :39:45. | :39:49. | |
towards a noninterventionist position? Certainly on the military | :39:50. | :39:56. | |
front, I think there are, there is probably a majority of our people | :39:57. | :40:02. | |
who believe we made a mistake after 9/11 to jump into Iraq. Ooh And who | :40:03. | :40:13. | |
have been frustrated by the inability to resolve the election in | :40:14. | :40:16. | |
Afghanistan. Are you one of those people? My gut is we will resolve | :40:17. | :40:22. | |
that and if they will ask the United States to stay involved. Because | :40:23. | :40:29. | |
they have, there has really been a lot happen in Afghanistan. I think | :40:30. | :40:36. | |
that probably that thing will fix itself up in the next few weeks. You | :40:37. | :40:41. | |
say Afghanistan but don't mention Iraq? I don't know what will happen | :40:42. | :40:49. | |
in Iraq yesterday. I think that based on what the Iraqi moderate | :40:50. | :40:59. | |
Sunni do at the end of the gulf conflict they could probably play a | :41:00. | :41:03. | |
very major role in holding the country together and in sharing | :41:04. | :41:06. | |
responsibility for the future of the country. But Mr Mallon has | :41:07. | :41:16. | |
-Al-Maliki has to be consistent on giving them equal partnership or | :41:17. | :41:20. | |
leave office and given someone else a chance to do that. Is many part of | :41:21. | :41:27. | |
the solution with America? Are -- is Iran part of the solution with | :41:28. | :41:34. | |
America? They could be, it will be give if they -- difficult if they | :41:35. | :41:42. | |
keep asking for amount of centre fewing and -- centre fuge more than | :41:43. | :41:49. | |
anyone else. There is very little leadership coming from America right | :41:50. | :41:53. | |
now? They west need leadership, is that what you said. Don't we? Yes, | :41:54. | :42:00. | |
but we have to deal with the intervening event. We are now | :42:01. | :42:03. | |
involved in a very intense set of negotiations with Iran. Over how | :42:04. | :42:24. | |
much of their, of their centrefuges they are going to take adown. We | :42:25. | :42:34. | |
need to have alliances in the Iran, Iraq and Syria area. In terms of | :42:35. | :42:41. | |
Israel and Gaza. When you were President you were the mediate to | :42:42. | :42:44. | |
very hands on, now there is no Egypt, there is no America there? I | :42:45. | :42:53. | |
was, but we also remember we had a very different circumstance there. | :42:54. | :43:00. | |
That is there was an operating majority in Israel under both Prime | :43:01. | :43:07. | |
Minister Netenyahu and Mr Rabin before. And then Barak afterwards, | :43:08. | :43:14. | |
to keep working with the Palestinians and keep trying to work | :43:15. | :43:18. | |
things out. It was a lot easier to do it when the Government wants to | :43:19. | :43:25. | |
do it. Let's talk a little clears to home, how transformative will it be | :43:26. | :43:29. | |
to have a woman President in the White House? Do I think it would be | :43:30. | :43:33. | |
a good thing. Do you think it would be transformative? Depending on what | :43:34. | :43:41. | |
the President did. It would be at one level transformative just | :43:42. | :43:46. | |
because we have never had a woman elected, so I think that would be a | :43:47. | :43:54. | |
good thing, but if the President showed a remarkable gift for both | :43:55. | :44:04. | |
strength and toughness and for leaving the door open constantly for | :44:05. | :44:08. | |
negotiation. That would be a good thing, it would represent what most | :44:09. | :44:14. | |
people think of. Almost archetypal women's strengths you know. He | :44:15. | :44:21. | |
always says women had the responsibility gene so you can be | :44:22. | :44:29. | |
strong but you also we're going to have to govern with a level of | :44:30. | :44:34. | |
co-operation that we are not used to right now. Are you ready to go on | :44:35. | :44:42. | |
the road for another two years, full slog? No, what I'm ready to do is | :44:43. | :44:48. | |
whatever she wants me to do. I really do believe, I know a lot of | :44:49. | :44:53. | |
people don't believe me when I say this. We have had great life. We | :44:54. | :44:59. | |
love what we are doing now in this foundation. On the other hand if you | :45:00. | :45:10. | |
are President you have the opportunity to do things no-one else | :45:11. | :45:14. | |
does. But you have to really have a theory of the case, you have to have | :45:15. | :45:18. | |
ideas, politics and work at it. And it is an exhausting thing. I have | :45:19. | :45:27. | |
told Hillary repeatedly she would have to make this decision, if she | :45:28. | :45:32. | |
wants my opinion I will give it to her. She wasn't asked for your | :45:33. | :45:37. | |
opinion on whether she should run? Absolutely not. For the last 14 | :45:38. | :45:42. | |
years she has had more hands on political experience than I have. | :45:43. | :45:51. | |
First time in our lives. When she ran the last time in 2008 people | :45:52. | :46:00. | |
kept asking me what I think, I just said I think it is her time and she | :46:01. | :46:05. | |
gets to decide and if I can help I will. But we were mashied a very | :46:06. | :46:16. | |
long -- married a very long time when she was deferring to my | :46:17. | :46:20. | |
political career and policy making. I told her when she got elected to | :46:21. | :46:26. | |
the Senate in New York that she had given me 26 years. So I intended to | :46:27. | :46:30. | |
give her 26 years. Whatever she wanted to do was fine with me. If | :46:31. | :46:35. | |
shen't whatted to know my opinion I would tell her. But she had cart e | :46:36. | :46:41. | |
blanche to make whatever decision she wanted to and tell me what I | :46:42. | :46:46. | |
needed to do. I have honoured that. We have just past the half way mark | :46:47. | :46:53. | |
and I have got to live another 12 years or so. So I guess I will have | :46:54. | :47:00. | |
to be living to be 20 to be free at last. It is very important to us and | :47:01. | :47:06. | |
I want her if she wants the job and she believes she can make a real | :47:07. | :47:09. | |
difference and she has ideas to do it. I will be glad to help. I will | :47:10. | :47:14. | |
do whatever I can. But I can tell you this, all these suggestions that | :47:15. | :47:20. | |
she feels entitled to it, that is just not true. That is not true, we | :47:21. | :47:26. | |
have been in too many races over the last 40 years now to believe in any | :47:27. | :47:32. | |
such thing as a sew deal. Bill Clinton. That's all we have time for | :47:33. | :47:48. | |
until tomorrow night, good night. Thunderstorms around as well, and | :47:49. | :47:51. | |
during the day on Friday they will continue to move in order warts from | :47:52. | :47:55. | |
North Wales over North West England into Northern Ireland and south-west | :47:56. | :47:59. | |
Scotland. Heat and | :48:00. | :48:00. |