16/07/2014 Newsnight


16/07/2014

Who is caught up in tax avoidance schemes? Plus politics, paedophiles, the right to die debate, and Crackwatch with artists Gilbert and George. With Kirsty Wark.


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Transcript


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politicians have been falling over each other to denounce celebrities

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who invested in tax avoidance schemes. Some of these aggressive

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anti-avoidance schemes that may not be illegal are morally questionable,

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I think it is right for politicians not only to make that point, but

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frankly to go after some of these aggressive avoidance schemes. So it

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may be more than a little embarrassing to discover that

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amongst the investors in one vehicle, now deemed by the revenue

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to be a tax avoidance scheme is one of their own, former Tory cabinet

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minister, Andrew Mitchell. The police have announced the arrest of

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650 paedophiles from all walks of life across the UK after a target on

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on-line activity. Is this too big a problem to arrest our way out of it.

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People on the Internet should realise that policing across the

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country and the National Crime Agency is able to see and detect you

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when you step out of line and break the law. Living sculptures and

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national treasure sure, Gilbert George have a crack with Steve Smith

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over their show inspired by nitrous oxide, aka laughing gas! .

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Good evening, it has been a bumpy couple of years for former Tory

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cabinet minister Andrew Mitchell. There was the controversial run in

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with the Downing Street policeman, followed by a long battle to clear

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his name. Now it seems Mr Mitchell could face more turbulence.

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Newsnight has learned he was among the investors in a film fund which

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the revenue has teamed a tax avoidance scheme, and the tax man

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wants the money back. It is real simple... . Everyone

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wants to be in the movies, even Andrew Mitchell, the former

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Government Chief Whip, he's best known for having resigned from the

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Government in October 2012 over a bizarre argument with some Downing

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Street policemen, a process that has left him embroilled in high-profile

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legal proceedings. But back in the mid-2000s in the Shadow Cabinet he

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put money into a high-profile film financing company, now best known

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for backing Avatar, the blockbuster. However, this week HMRC, the tax

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collectors controversially deemed that what he and his fellow

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investors had actually done was to take part in a tax avoidance scheme.

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Mr Mitchell invested in the company called Ingenious Film Parters II, it

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was a vehicle to encourage people to invest in British film. According to

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the revenue it was a company designed to generate tax reliefs for

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its investors. The way that the company works is a bit complex. So

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say an investor put in the minimum ?36,000, if they did that the

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company would then loan them ?64,000 to invest, taking their total stake

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up to ?100,000. That would then be used to buy shares in film

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production, which, in their first year ran a roughly ?90,000 trading

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loss. Investors could choose to write that off for tax purposes.

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What does that mean? Well they put in ?36,000 in cash and they get back

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roughly ?36,000 in tax relief very fast. And, now they own a ?100,000

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stake in a group of films, so long as the films make enough money to

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service the debt, the company's structure allows people to invest

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without looking up a lot of their own cash. Now serious films get

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financed like this. The company backed X Men: The Last Stand, along

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with some rather less grand names, Garfield, and... . Virgin

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Territories. Furthermore the income received from these films is, of

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course, taxed. Ingenious says its schemes have generated ?1 billion of

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such income. It continued: A tax tribunal called at the

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company's question is scheduled for November, they remain confident of

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the outcome. There are three big reasons why it has broader

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implications. The first was it was company is run by

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implications. The first was it was man who has advised the Labour Party

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on tax and some of its other man who has advised the Labour Party

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investors include Lord Grade a former chairman of the BBC, and Lord

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Waldegrave a former Chief Secretary to the Treasury. What may be about

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to happen could be deeply embarrassing for the three

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politician, as well as potentially expensive. They may be the first

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politicians to be caught in HMRC's tax drag net and anti-avoidance

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crusade. It has become a statement of political speeches. Some of these

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aggressive anti-avoidance schemes that may not be illegal are morally

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questionable. I regard tax evasion and aggressive tax avoidance as

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morally repugnant. So HMRC has been given more resources to tackle

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avoidance, more powers and selected more targets. Practices that HMRC

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wouldn't worry about in previous years are now in their sights. We

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asked these investors how much they put in, how much they might need to

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pay back or whether they had already set welled HMRC. Mr Mitchell said,

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when the last Labour Government introduced tax incentives to invest

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in the British film industry, along with many other investors I did so

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through ingenious Film, he resigned from the company in -- I resigned

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from the film when in Government and paid all tax due. The other two said

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than I tension was to invest in British film. The second reason why

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there is a broader interest, is investors in the company may be

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among the first people to receive accelerated payment notices. That

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means HMRC, the tax inspectors can send them letters for the tax they

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should have been paying without going to court. This new process has

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been attacked as draconian, it adds new terror to investing in a scheme

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that HMRC might question. The company was identified as a

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candidate for this process earlier this week. It is one of 1,200

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schemes that are being primed for it. The law that allows it is

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expected to get Royal Assent and letters to start going out this

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week. The third issue is that pursuing alleged tax avoidance can

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cause political difficulty. The drag net of 1,200 schemes is catching

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people who can ill afford to repay their taxes, and are now angered

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that HMRC calls their long standing business arrangements tax avoidance

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schemes. There is no appeal process, if you receive a notice you must

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take advice immediately, do not ignore it. Many people that receive

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notices will probably come out of the blue and many of those people

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will probably have been mis-sold the schemes in the first place. If

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anybody feels they have been given bad advice or mis-sold by the

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advisers they ha chosen that is something they have to take up with

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the proper authorities. It is not a reason why they shouldn't pay the

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tax that they owe. HMRC will of course still need to win cases in

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court, even if they need to pay up soon, Ingenious investors will get

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their money back if they can triumph there. In the short-term Mr Mitchell

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and tens of thousands of others may be waiting for a letter from the

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taxma How damaging is this for the

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Conservatives? Leaving aside the case of Andrew Mitchell this agenda

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is something the Conservatives do really care about. You have seen

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Daniel Alexander, a Lib Dem announce action in this area. But George

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Osborne and David Cameron pile in behind him because if they want to

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be able to get tough on those less well off in society, as they have

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been, ?80 billion in welfare cuts this parliament, they also they

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believe have to have an agenda on those on the top. That is why they

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want to be stuck like fly paper to the Liberal Democrats on this

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agenda, they wouldn't want to be priced apart from it. You have more

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tonight on the whole welfare issue? Now we have the reshuffle out of the

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way, we will now have the politics of the manifestos and what ideas

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will go into their respective manifestos and George Osborne has

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already told us that he will want to find ?12 billion of welfare cuts for

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the next two years in the next parliament, and the Lib Dems have

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already said they don't agree with that, what we will get in the next

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few months is chatter and fact about how the Tories think they can get

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there. One idea that is very sensitive is how much child benefit

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should be dispersed, I know Labour people who think it is completely

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untenable the situation we have at the moment where every child, every

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other child you have you get more money. What had been bubbling around

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was the idea that it would be limited to two children and the

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Welfare Secretary, Iain Duncan Smith is very keen on this idea. From my

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calls today seems the Treasury is very nervous about this idea. What

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is published tomorrow, which perhaps makes this more interesting is an

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idea by the think-tank, Policy Exchange, is that you would limit it

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to four children and taper it after two. What is interesting is perhaps

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it is the way that George Osborne could embrace the idea and bring in

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some kind of change on child benefit that isn't, dare I say it, something

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that would really horrify people in the swing seats. Horrify people

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because of the social engineering nature to it as well? There is many

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more families that have two children to state the obvious than have three

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or four. Numerically, so you can see families with two children who might

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see that policy and think oh my gosh I won't vote Conservative, where as

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families of four there are few of them that will be affected. There is

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another political story? The Mirror has a story that Clegg is about to

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ditch the bedroom tax, I'm looking into it and we will talk about that

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later. Doctors, teachers a social services

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worker a scout leader, even former police officers, as a result of an

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unprecedented investigation for the National Crime Agency into on-line

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paedophilia, today the police announced that more than 650

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suspected paedophiles had been arrested in a six-month

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investigation, and as a result 430 children have been protected. But

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the secretary for the children's s charities coalition for internet

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safety said the police alone can't cope with the problem, the volume of

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images is too large. We will be debating on how to get to grips with

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the criminality on an internet that is constantly mutating. First we

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have this. The doctor with a million images of

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abuse on his hard drive, the pensioner with 17 grandchildren, the

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foster carer with no previous convictions, all arrested as part of

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a six-month police investigation. There is no part of the internet

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that is inpenetrable to us. Anybody who is listening to this programme

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who offends on the Internet should realise the policing across the

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country and the National Crime Agency is able to see you and detect

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you when you stand out of line and break the law. If you break the law

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we will come after you. That operation involved all 45

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police force, leading to 660 arrests. Just 39 of those held were

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on the Sex Offenders Register. 431 children were removed, including 127

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identified as being at serious risk of harm. It is the job of the

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Internet Watch Foundation to investigate reports of child abuse

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images and pass that information to the police. This image here was an

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example of some of the image that is we have. It has been very heavily

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pick sellated, because obviously it is a criminal offence to look at

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images, it is a child we assess to be between seven and ten years old.

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They are actually tied up, so they are bound. It is a sadistic image,

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so it is one of the worst types of images that you will see. The number

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of images like this, seen by the analyst here has doubled since the

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charity was formed in 2007. We now are 12 analysts and they are

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occupied full-time, they are occupied doing work looking at

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content that is on in the public domain on the open internet. What

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they do know, because they are specialists in this is the majority

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of the images that we see are all duplicate, so they see the same

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children again and again and again, and a series of images around the

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same children. So they do know when they see new images and they are

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seeing increasing numbers of new images and new children. The

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National Crime Agency was set up to deal with organised crime, it will

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not reveal the exact tactics used in this latest operation, but they are

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likely to be far less dramatic than these scenes. We do know officers

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received training from the Los Angeles police department, seen here

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using software that tracks in real time people downloading and swapping

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abuse images. time people downloading and swapping

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keen to talk up the scale of this operation, calling it the largest of

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its type across the UK. Now that may be true up to a point, but ten years

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ago another similar investigation into child sex abuse led to

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five-times as many arrests and almost 2,000 convictions. The actor

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Chris Langham was the most high-profile conviction as part of

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Operation Orr, police were passed details of 7,000 UK subscribers to a

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US porn site found to be hosting some child abuse images. It became

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clear not everyone involved were guilty, some were accessing only

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adult pornography, others were the victims of credit card fraud. The

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impact on them and their families was devastating. Several people

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committed suicide and a number of people were so overwhelmed by it

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they didn't know what to do and before they had proper legal advice

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they accepted a police caution as being the better thing to do to get

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over it and get on with their lives. Police say they have learned from

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the operation and the tactics used today are far more sophisticated. We

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have a capability now that is well ahead of what it was a few years

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ago, I'm confident the people we have identified today we will see

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with the evidence presented appropriately and a high conviction

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rate. There is another question here rarely asked, what evidence is there

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that viewing images on a computer can lead to physical abuse in the

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real world. Here the evidence is inconclusive, one academic called it

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the million dollar question. A 2009 study from the US found 85% of

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on-line offenders had admitted to physical abuse. Another from the

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same year found the level can be as low as 3%. Some of these men are

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immediately directly dangerous to children, in my experience the

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majority are not. Whatever the explanation for their behaviour, and

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there will be many, including their excessive use of pornography,

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perhaps. But I have met many internet offenders who are actually

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very good fathers, and who are very good workers, good husbands, there

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are aspects of their lives of course that needs to be accounted for. We

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mustn't stopped them being able to be good fathers or good husband, we

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need to hold them accountable and help them learn new patterns of

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living to make sure their on-line life is far better than it has been

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in the past. That view may be controversial to

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many, just as the police are learning how to deal with this

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problem, so we as a society might have to ask some hard questions

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about the extent of on-line abuse and how we deal with it. With me now

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is Jim Gamble the former chief executive of see on, the police

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branch dedicated to on-line protection, he oversaw Operation

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Orr, the largest UK crime investigation with thousands

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targeted for on-line images of child abuse, also here is Professor

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Richard Wortley, head of UCL's Department of Security and crime.

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Jim Gamble how different is the Internet from when you were using

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Operation Orr? The Internet has developed, in the case of the

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operation people went on-line, engaged with the site, made a

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payment using the credit card and received a password which helped

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evidence that they had been there, and they went on-line using their

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computer and very often their IP address. Those tactics were when the

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Internet was for buying something on it. You don't need to do that. I

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totally dispute about what was said about it being discredited, people

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did take their own lives, but there was no evidence of widespread fraud

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or we attempted tom prosecute those on adult pornography sites, we

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differentiated. Of course people can access on-line child abuse on the

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open web, what is different is the development of the dark web and the

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cloud and so forth, which makes this stuff much harder to access? I was

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in CEOP until 2011, in 2009 we identified that the overwhelming

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images were being swapped in nests on the Internet, peer-to-peer

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website where is I would show you mine and you would show me yours,

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that was not gotten through Google. Now you make a definite effort to

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get in there and stay in there? It is a community of paedophiles that

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huddle together and share images. The NCA deputy said we can't arrest

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our way out of this. So do you think there is a quantifiable difference

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in looking at this stuff and actually those who will actually go

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out and actively commit child abuse, is it different? The overlap between

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accessing on-line abuse images and committing a contact offence is very

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controversial and some figures were just presented. An average that is

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often used in the literature is about 12% overlap. I think the point

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to make about people who access images on the Internet is they are

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not a homogenius group, they span an entire spectrum. Certainly at the

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extreme end they involve people who are extremely deviant, extremely

:19:23.:19:27.

predatory and go to a lot of effort to access these images. It extends

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into the normal curve, if you like. When you say the normal curve, you

:19:33.:19:36.

actually think the normal curve is people viewing this stuff on-line,

:19:37.:19:40.

but not actively going out and committing acts of child abuse? I

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think probably we don't know for sure, but I think common sense would

:19:44.:19:48.

suggest that the majority of people who access images on the net aren't

:19:49.:19:54.

involved in contact offending. I would dispute that, my experience

:19:55.:19:59.

and the work that I'm familiar with carried out by the head of

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behavioural analysis unit in the United States would indicate when

:20:06.:20:08.

they use the lie detector to test that the vast majority of those

:20:09.:20:12.

arrested for viewing offences have been involved in contact doing

:20:13.:20:15.

offences, there is a recent study that backs up his 2008 study came

:20:16.:20:20.

out in February this year which shows across five different

:20:21.:20:23.

agencies, so not linked to one study, that between 57-61% were

:20:24.:20:29.

doing it, not only hands-on offences but they were able to identify 97

:20:30.:20:34.

victims by name and location. That would suggest that actually the

:20:35.:20:38.

majority of people accessing child porn on-line are dangerous? I think

:20:39.:20:41.

there is lots of problems with that figure, in 1980 before the Internet

:20:42.:20:47.

the largest-selling child pornography magazine in the US had

:20:48.:20:51.

about 800 subscribers, 20 years later we had 370,000 subscribers on

:20:52.:20:57.

one site. What has happened and now we estimate the number of people

:20:58.:21:00.

accessing images on the net in the millions. But you are not seriously

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suggesting that there is some kind of normative behaviour in accessing

:21:06.:21:10.

child porn, surely nobody would think that to be the case? There has

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been a massive increase in on-line offending, at the same time when the

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best evidence we have shows there has been a drop in contact

:21:18.:21:20.

offending, what's happened in the 20 or 30 years since 1980 we haven't

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suddenly created a million new paedophile, what we have provided is

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platform that provides unparalleled access to abuse images. It seems

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certain people want to access those, what you seem to be suggesting is

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that is it is a completely passive thing, you access this stuff and

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then nothing happens, is that your thoughts? No the people who access

:21:42.:21:46.

this stuff access it to masturbate, it is about sexual deafence, people

:21:47.:21:51.

who have a precondition, a deviant sexual interest in children, that is

:21:52.:21:54.

why they go there. If we are going to look at statistics from the past,

:21:55.:22:01.

consider Jimmy Savile, Rolf Harris and Max Clifford, because we didn't

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know doesn't mean it doesn't happen. We shouldn't use language leading us

:22:05.:22:09.

into anti-victim prejudice, a lot of people want to dismiss victims. That

:22:10.:22:14.

is not my experience. If we want to make impact, you seem to suggest

:22:15.:22:17.

there is a burgeoning culture of people looking at on-line child

:22:18.:22:21.

abuse, the police say they can't arrest their way out of it, what is

:22:22.:22:25.

to do? These arrests are absolutely defendable and should have taken

:22:26.:22:28.

place and they do serve a purpose, and the purpose they serve is

:22:29.:22:33.

actually mentioned by some of your commentators they demonstrate that

:22:34.:22:36.

the Internet is not as anonymous as offenders think it is. It is the

:22:37.:22:40.

anonymity of the internet, the ease of access of the images that is

:22:41.:22:44.

driving the behaviour. But, also, ease of access of the image the fact

:22:45.:22:49.

is somebody looking at child porn is actively supporting a culture where

:22:50.:22:52.

children on-line are being abused? No question. So who cracks down

:22:53.:22:58.

where then? I think there is not one answer to that, but we certainly

:22:59.:23:00.

have to look at prevention. We can't answer to that, but we certainly

:23:01.:23:04.

arrest our way out of it but arrests can provide a message to offend that

:23:05.:23:09.

they are not anonymous. The problem has occurred because of the ease of

:23:10.:23:13.

accessing images and the solution is to make it more difficult to access

:23:14.:23:19.

images. I disagree, blocking, we're past a sell by date of blocking, you

:23:20.:23:23.

don't get the images on the open internet but on the Dark Net. You

:23:24.:23:26.

can't arrest everybody? You can't arrest everyone, but we need to

:23:27.:23:30.

arrest someone, the fact of the matter we know 50,000 plus people in

:23:31.:23:34.

the UK have been downloading these images, if we were to arrest 660

:23:35.:23:39.

people a day for the next 75 days we could catch up. If the 660 people

:23:40.:23:43.

had been terrorists it wouldn't take six months to deliver this. We need

:23:44.:23:47.

to declare a war on paedophilia and use all of the resources open,

:23:48.:23:52.

greater investment in acedemia, we need more doors knocked and they

:23:53.:23:56.

need to go speedily from arrest to court to decide innocent or guilty

:23:57.:23:59.

and set an active deterrent, the way we did with drink-driving, they

:24:00.:24:03.

didn't stop because of the adverts they stopped because they realised

:24:04.:24:08.

the chances of getting caught increased radically and there was a

:24:09.:24:12.

stigma attached to it. A war on feed fila? -- paedophilia? Not in the way

:24:13.:24:19.

Jim talks about it, there are things to do to make it more difficult to

:24:20.:24:23.

access images. Nothing will be perfect, you have to make it more

:24:24.:24:27.

difficult, that doesn't mean to say make it impossible. One of the

:24:28.:24:30.

problems with the overlap figure, all of that research is carried out

:24:31.:24:37.

on convicted and in most cases imprisoned offenders. As we learned

:24:38.:24:40.

with this case, police will target the most serious offenders and they

:24:41.:24:44.

should be targeting the most serious offenders but it gives you a

:24:45.:24:48.

distorted picture when you take this very extreme group that you have

:24:49.:24:51.

targeted and arrested and then ask them about their behaviour. There

:24:52.:24:56.

are many people on the Internet who fly under the radar and believe me

:24:57.:25:03.

are not involved in contact offending. I couldn't disagree more,

:25:04.:25:07.

the question for members of the public watching this is if you

:25:08.:25:09.

seriously believe that people go on-line and look at these images

:25:10.:25:12.

that aren't driven sexually the question for you is would you allow

:25:13.:25:16.

them to babysit for your children, the answer will be no, and nobody

:25:17.:25:19.

will be suggesting that we do. The Government need to invest greater

:25:20.:25:22.

resources so we have more of these individuals arrested and put behind

:25:23.:25:26.

bars, that is deterrent. Ahead of Friday's House of Lords

:25:27.:25:30.

debate on assisted dying, we have heard the conflicting voices of

:25:31.:25:34.

senior church leaders, including the former Archbishop of Canterbury,

:25:35.:25:41.

Lord Carey, who is in favour, and Justin Welsby who is against. What

:25:42.:25:45.

about the medical profession, where do they stand on the bill if passed

:25:46.:25:50.

in its present form could see them prescribing a lethal dose of drugs

:25:51.:25:56.

to terminally ill patients with less than six months to live. There is a

:25:57.:26:01.

key vote on Friday and people will be piling into the Lords tonight. A

:26:02.:26:06.

campaigner on the issue is determined she should be able to die

:26:07.:26:12.

how she choses. Margaret John was a teacher for 45

:26:13.:26:17.

years, five years ago she was diagnosed with ovarian cancer and

:26:18.:26:20.

the illness is terminal. I asked when she first came to support

:26:21.:26:26.

assisted dying? When I was 12! ? In the early 50s my grandfather had a

:26:27.:26:38.

stroke, but to see a very upright rigid authoritarian ship worker tied

:26:39.:26:41.

in a wooden chair unable to speak or move sitting in his own excrement

:26:42.:26:46.

for four years had a very profound effect on me. And ever since I have

:26:47.:26:51.

believed that one should have a choice at the end of life. It is not

:26:52.:26:55.

about killing people, and I keep saying this, it is about living. And

:26:56.:27:00.

living is not just existing, it is having a full life and doing

:27:01.:27:04.

everything you could. Do you think then that you would preparing to

:27:05.:27:08.

take this decision, if indeed you take it, if you had not cancer? What

:27:09.:27:14.

is important to me is having the information, a full range of

:27:15.:27:17.

options, full information on everything, so that I can make a

:27:18.:27:21.

rational decision. I actually don't have a lot of pain. The fact that I

:27:22.:27:25.

have got cancer is not really an issue. I intend to live and I mean

:27:26.:27:29.

live to the very end. Now there is a difference between living and

:27:30.:27:34.

existing. If my life is reduced to four walls and daytime television

:27:35.:27:39.

I'm sorry I don't want that. Do you accept though that some days you are

:27:40.:27:43.

feeling better than others? Oh yeah, I doubt whether I would actually use

:27:44.:27:50.

anything. It is information, it is knowing what would work. Somebody

:27:51.:27:53.

did say to me you can get stuff on the Internet. Yes you can, but you

:27:54.:27:58.

don't know what it is, you don't know if it is going to work, if it

:27:59.:28:02.

doesn't it is not John Lewis, they don't give you money back. Do you

:28:03.:28:06.

have a faith? No I'm an atheist, if I'm wrong I will apologise. I was a

:28:07.:28:11.

practising member of the Church of England until my late 30s and I read

:28:12.:28:15.

extensively, I have read up on Buddhism, I took instruction in the

:28:16.:28:20.

Catholic faith and couldn't make the act of faith. I wish I did believe.

:28:21.:28:24.

Would it make any difference to your decision do you think? No, because

:28:25.:28:29.

I'm talking about living, I keep forgetting to look up who wrote t it

:28:30.:28:36.

is called the Docolog and it is a poem and based on the Ten

:28:37.:28:40.

Commandments, I love the one about killing, "thoushalt not kill but

:28:41.:28:50.

need not strive to stay alive". We have our guests in the studio. If

:28:51.:29:00.

this goes through it is doctors that really have to implement this, it is

:29:01.:29:05.

a massive moral decision apart from anything else. Jackie you were

:29:06.:29:08.

engaged as a doctor in delivering what is life-savi treatment and yet

:29:09.:29:17.

you support this, why? Because some people cannot be helped in the

:29:18.:29:20.

terminal stages of disease and suffer very badly. And want the

:29:21.:29:24.

choice to die. We know that because people go to Switzerland to Dignitas

:29:25.:29:30.

and only the people who can afford to obviously. I have seen members of

:29:31.:29:34.

my own family, including my brother whose case was used by Dignity in

:29:35.:29:39.

Dying when they were talking to the House of Lords about this, who were

:29:40.:29:44.

afraid of death, afraid of, a fear of death can be allayed by the

:29:45.:29:47.

option of assisted dying if people know it is there. The vast majority

:29:48.:29:53.

of them won't use it. But we cannot stop all suffering. We can't stop

:29:54.:29:57.

all physical suffering and we can't certainly stop all mental suffering

:29:58.:30:00.

that people go through facing a bad death. You heard Margaret in the

:30:01.:30:06.

film completely clear headed, saying that she wants the information, she

:30:07.:30:11.

may not use it, but she feels it is her human right to make that

:30:12.:30:13.

decision about whether to live or die? I think the difficulty we have

:30:14.:30:19.

is that if you do implement the bill that is proposed on Friday doctors

:30:20.:30:22.

are going to have to make the death decision. You are going Toffler

:30:23.:30:28.

essentially death squads which is really out of the context of

:30:29.:30:32.

delivering good health. Is death squads not an emotive way of putting

:30:33.:30:38.

it? I think the way the bill is going to have two doctors'

:30:39.:30:44.

signatures, you can't predict outcome, I made disastrous mistakes

:30:45.:30:48.

with patients because you can't predict the outcomes of cancer and

:30:49.:30:53.

motor neurone disease. That is a heart-breaking and debilitating

:30:54.:30:56.

disease, on the question of cancer that is a right, when would a doctor

:30:57.:31:01.

be able to pinpoint the moment that somebody would succumb to cancer in

:31:02.:31:05.

the end. But you can make an informed decision of the progress of

:31:06.:31:08.

a disease can't you? You can, and cancer is easier than something like

:31:09.:31:12.

motor neurone disease because it is a consistent line. You look at an

:31:13.:31:16.

X-ray, if the tumour is getting bigger you can predict where it is

:31:17.:31:20.

going. But we can be years out, you get remarkable things. I have only

:31:21.:31:25.

twice as 35 years as a consultant been asked by a patient to end their

:31:26.:31:29.

life, I have seen a lot of people in that time. Only two, and I remember

:31:30.:31:33.

them as though it was yesterday. In one case I actually helped them end

:31:34.:31:39.

their life. In what way? By giving high doses of open patients to kill

:31:40.:31:47.

their pain. Is this the -- Opiates. To kill their pain. You are giving

:31:48.:31:53.

these and it may cause their death and you knew that? Yes. Did you

:31:54.:31:57.

actively know you were doing it? You don't know and different patients

:31:58.:32:01.

will tolerate different doses of drugs. The most important thing is

:32:02.:32:05.

making a clinical judgment with that patient. Having a bureaucratic

:32:06.:32:09.

system with politicians involved who have no understanding of medicine is

:32:10.:32:15.

not the way forward. It would be case of death squads? That is a

:32:16.:32:19.

clearly emotive way. It isn't going to be doctors who decide this, it

:32:20.:32:22.

will be patients. Two doctors have to make the decision whether or not

:32:23.:32:26.

to prescribe the lethal medicine that would be needed. So in a sense

:32:27.:32:29.

doctors do have to pacemaker the decision don't they? They will be --

:32:30.:32:36.

they do have to make the decision don't they? They have to decide

:32:37.:32:41.

whether the patient is in the six-month delivery. It is the

:32:42.:32:44.

patient who requests this and takes the dose. This isn't euthanasia

:32:45.:32:50.

where the doctor administers it, it is the patient who asks for it.

:32:51.:32:53.

There are many safeguards in the bill. What the doctor may not

:32:54.:32:56.

necessarily know is another von in the the -- vulnerability in the

:32:57.:33:04.

patient, perhaps she has pressing financial problems or pressing

:33:05.:33:07.

health problems that require money to deal with them, there would be

:33:08.:33:11.

the invisible pressure on the patient to as it were to do the

:33:12.:33:14.

right thing for the family, as they would see it? I think what is really

:33:15.:33:19.

important to look at. This isn't a leap into the dark, this has been

:33:20.:33:24.

happening in other places, in Oregon it has been happening for up to 17

:33:25.:33:30.

years. The Hospice Association originally opposed the Dignity and

:33:31.:33:37.

Dying Bill in the area, because these fears are understandable. They

:33:38.:33:41.

withdrew their opposition because they said there was no evidence of

:33:42.:33:44.

the two things they were afraid of which was one that offering assisted

:33:45.:33:48.

dying would interfere with end of life care, and the other one was

:33:49.:33:52.

there was no evidence that vulnerable people were being

:33:53.:33:54.

affected by this. So if those people are saying we're happy with this,

:33:55.:33:59.

what's the problem. The problem is that palliative medicine has come

:34:00.:34:02.

from nothing when I started as a consultant to be fantastic,

:34:03.:34:07.

palliative care, experts, nurses, doctors, that specialise. People

:34:08.:34:12.

don't need to die in unpleasant painful circumstances.

:34:13.:34:16.

When you say they don't need to die in unpleasant and painful

:34:17.:34:19.

circumstance, a lot of people would prefer to die when they know they

:34:20.:34:23.

would feel better, you seem to suggest that doctors already do this

:34:24.:34:28.

in an unofficial way? They do it and they have been doing it because of

:34:29.:34:31.

the nature of pain control. It is risky because you escalate the dose

:34:32.:34:36.

and you get respiratory regression, it is inevitable. By formalising it

:34:37.:34:42.

don't you give people control of their own destiny? In a modern

:34:43.:34:46.

hospice, hospices at home which is the current way forward, people are

:34:47.:34:51.

given a morphine pump which they can press a button to get more to kill

:34:52.:34:56.

the pain. The most important thing in palliative care is to keep the

:34:57.:35:00.

patient pain free and free from other symptoms which can be

:35:01.:35:05.

distressing. But there will be pressure on people. I have just

:35:06.:35:12.

heard that Norman Lambert, the Lambert -- Norman Lambert has come

:35:13.:35:16.

out in favour of assisted dying on Friday, he has changed his mind.

:35:17.:35:20.

Have you been surprised by some of the people that actually have given

:35:21.:35:24.

you support? I think people are really looking at what is on offer

:35:25.:35:28.

as opposed to a lot of argument that is are based on what is not on

:35:29.:35:33.

offer. What is on offer under Lord Faulkner is a very prescriptive,

:35:34.:35:38.

facing terminal illness, two doctors involved, the patient has to want

:35:39.:35:41.

this, there is a cooling off period, it is not about disabled people or

:35:42.:35:45.

vulnerable people, it is very specific and worked for 17 years in

:35:46.:35:50.

Oregan. Right now I would like to bring in Norman Lambert, we can talk

:35:51.:35:54.

to him right now, good evening. This is very good of you to come in at

:35:55.:35:57.

such short notice. Tell me, you have made a decision and what has made,

:35:58.:36:09.

why have you changed your mind? I'm making this decision as a person not

:36:10.:36:15.

as a minister. It is important to make that distinction clear. It is

:36:16.:36:18.

talking to lots of people who have gone through the experience of a

:36:19.:36:22.

loved-one dying, often going through months of pain and distress, and

:36:23.:36:27.

ultimately you know you have to ask the question, who should it be that

:36:28.:36:31.

decides, should it be me or anyone else in that situation, or should it

:36:32.:36:35.

be the state? Ultimately I think it is a very personal decision and I

:36:36.:36:41.

have gone through a process of re-thinking my position on this, and

:36:42.:36:45.

I think the current position where we have got this confused situation

:36:46.:36:51.

that families do not know what the law actually will do to them, and

:36:52.:36:56.

you have the Crown Prosecution Service reviewing I think something

:36:57.:37:02.

like 60 cases since the most recent guidance. What an invidious position

:37:03.:37:05.

to put families in, not knowing whether you are going to be

:37:06.:37:09.

prosecuted for helping your loved one to end their life. So I'm very

:37:10.:37:12.

clear in the position that I take on this. This is interesting because

:37:13.:37:16.

you say that you are doing this in a personal capacity, but because you

:37:17.:37:20.

are the minister for the care of the elderly, of course your

:37:21.:37:25.

intervention, your decision carries and will be seen to be carrying

:37:26.:37:30.

great deal of weight? I understand that but it has been made clear that

:37:31.:37:37.

this is a personal vote issue, I feel actually having gone through

:37:38.:37:41.

the process of thinking, re-thinking my position, I now feel very clear

:37:42.:37:46.

in my own mind about where I stand myself on this. I think there are

:37:47.:37:54.

clear safeguards and they are critical. In a sense it was the fear

:37:55.:37:59.

of exploitation which always caused me concern in the past. But

:38:00.:38:02.

ultimately should we stand in the way of someone wanting to make their

:38:03.:38:08.

own decision about their life or should we set the safeguards in

:38:09.:38:12.

place to ensure that there is every chance of avoiding that

:38:13.:38:16.

exploitation, I'm very clear in my mind that the individual should be

:38:17.:38:19.

the person who decides, not the state. Now Norman Lamb while we have

:38:20.:38:26.

you here we should talk about a story on the front page of the

:38:27.:38:31.

Mirror tomorrow, that is that Nick Clegg has come out against the

:38:32.:38:34.

bedroom tax, can you give a little more on this? It is in response to a

:38:35.:38:39.

report that has emerged which shows that a very tiny percentage of the

:38:40.:38:45.

people who have been subject to the ending of the spare room subsidy

:38:46.:38:51.

have actually moved home, in my own constituency I have come across many

:38:52.:38:57.

cases where people may be willing to move, may be willing to downsize but

:38:58.:39:03.

the state of the housing market and the shortage of social housing just

:39:04.:39:07.

makes it impossible for that person to move. So they are stuck in the

:39:08.:39:12.

situation, it may well be that they also have a disability and are

:39:13.:39:18.

unable to move because they need a spare bedroom for a carer, or they

:39:19.:39:22.

may have adapted their home, and I think therefore we have to adjust

:39:23.:39:25.

the position in the light of experience to make sure that it is

:39:26.:39:29.

absolutely fair. At a critical moment in the lead up to the

:39:30.:39:32.

election of course you are in a coalition and you have absolutely no

:39:33.:39:37.

chance have you of persuading your coalition partners also to agree

:39:38.:39:41.

with what Nick Clegg apparently said which is that it has been a

:39:42.:39:44.

catastrophe that punishes the POOFRMENT you are having your cake

:39:45.:39:47.

and eat -- poor, you are having your cake and eating it, you are

:39:48.:39:53.

disagreeing with a fundamental tenet of welfare we -- reform. The

:39:54.:40:07.

situation as far as new tenants are concerned there is no dispute in the

:40:08.:40:11.

private sector, individuals who claim housing benefit in the private

:40:12.:40:15.

sector only get housing benefit for the room that is they need. They

:40:16.:40:18.

don't get a spare room subsidy, and it is perfectly reasonable that the

:40:19.:40:22.

same rule applies in both the private and the public sector. The

:40:23.:40:27.

difficulty we have here is people who are in social housing who have a

:40:28.:40:32.

spare room but are simply not able to move because of their

:40:33.:40:37.

circumstances. Does this mean the Liberal Democrats are going to be

:40:38.:40:41.

speaking out against the bedroom tax at every turn? It is a response to

:40:42.:40:45.

the evidence that we have seen and I think it is absolutely reasonable

:40:46.:40:47.

for the party to make its position clear. Thank you very much for

:40:48.:40:50.

joining us tonight. Thank you both for joining us.

:40:51.:40:55.

It may be just time to dust off the old gag about modern artists

:40:56.:41:00.

laughing all the way to the bank. . Because Gilbert George have put

:41:01.:41:03.

their new exhibition together with the help of nitrous oxide, laughing

:41:04.:41:08.

gas to you and me. It is a legal high popular with clubbers and known

:41:09.:41:15.

as "hippy crack". The sculptures didn't inhale themselves, but they

:41:16.:41:18.

collected the bomb-shaped empties of the gas they found near their home

:41:19.:41:24.

in south London. The cylinders loom large in their new show in

:41:25.:41:31.

Bermondsey. We joined them for some street combing in Brick Lane.

:41:32.:41:41.

We start and see these little cannisters on Brick Lane. Did you

:41:42.:41:47.

know what they were? Not at first. Then we started to see the balloons.

:41:48.:41:56.

For Monet it was water lilies, for Van Gogh sunflowers. Now Gilbert

:41:57.:42:03.

George have an old exhibition out of some old cannisters. There is one of

:42:04.:42:08.

the grey ones. Yes, there are different types. These things once

:42:09.:42:13.

contained "hippy crack" and empties of hippy crack are a recurring motif

:42:14.:42:21.

in their newest works. We are on an urban Safari, and apologies to

:42:22.:42:31.

Springwatch et cetera, we present "Crackwatch"! Composing the shot,

:42:32.:42:35.

that is what I like. The artists collected and photographed hundreds

:42:36.:42:40.

of gas containers. It is not every day we have our shots composed by

:42:41.:42:45.

leading artists! Some of them reminded Gilbert George of

:42:46.:42:51.

weapons. They do look like cartridges? That is why it was

:42:52.:42:55.

exciting, because in the evening when we are exhausting we go up and

:42:56.:43:01.

look at Al-Jazeera, they are all bombs, don't you think, it is all

:43:02.:43:06.

Iraq and Iran and Africa, all bombs, that is it. Never more in our

:43:07.:43:11.

lifetime than now, it is extraordinary. In our own way our

:43:12.:43:19.

whole life is bomb, I was bombed by Germany as a baby, bombed by the IRA

:43:20.:43:24.

to the east and west, we had the white supremacist bomber in Brick

:43:25.:43:26.

Lane, then the tubes and buses bombed. The scapegoating pictures as

:43:27.:43:33.

Gilbert George have called them are antic, unsettling, sometimes

:43:34.:43:39.

comic and full of those enlarged hippy crack cannisters. They convey

:43:40.:43:44.

an atmosphere of fear say the artists. We like this what you call

:43:45.:43:50.

they create this threatening atmosphere, this fear in the

:43:51.:43:54.

picture. The pictures do? Because of that. This kind of fear that it is

:43:55.:43:59.

new in some ways in the world. Because if you go to Heathrow it is

:44:00.:44:03.

fear, if you go on the bus it is fear. It is all fear in some way.

:44:04.:44:07.

Untold but it is there. fear. It is all fear in some way.

:44:08.:44:11.

that is a new thing a sense of fear? Yes, I think it is. The pair have

:44:12.:44:20.

been living here since the 1960s, now the only way you could afford to

:44:21.:44:24.

live here is if you are an incredibly successful artist. With

:44:25.:44:27.

so many different cultures and extremes of wealth on their

:44:28.:44:33.

doorstep, they don't want for creative stimulus. The centre of the

:44:34.:44:36.

universe, we always say if a spaceship was coming in to land from

:44:37.:44:40.

another planet, they only have ten minutes to film a typical planet

:44:41.:44:45.

earth place here or Liverpool Street or Bethnal Green. You would be good

:44:46.:44:50.

guides for the Martians? Yeah, take them down all the back alleys. And

:44:51.:45:07.

lots of naughty things! (Phone ringing) Good morning you have

:45:08.:45:09.

telephoned Gilbert George, time to leave a brief message after the

:45:10.:45:14.

tone, thank you, goodbye and good rid dance. Gilbert George say

:45:15.:45:21.

their new show picks up on he will tensions and violence in the air.

:45:22.:45:24.

The west is full of bombs as well. We are full of bombs all well. The

:45:25.:45:30.

exhibition takes its title from a flyer about Islamophobia and

:45:31.:45:34.

scapegoating which Gilbert George picked up as part of their voracious

:45:35.:45:38.

collecting. Are you in any sense warning with these things. Is that

:45:39.:45:43.

part of your work? We are showing it in some way, the new East London. I

:45:44.:45:47.

don't want to have a big view about what is going to happen but we are

:45:48.:45:54.

showing it. We don't want to be part of telling, but showing. Do you feel

:45:55.:46:01.

you are being particularly risky with this work, do you have any

:46:02.:46:05.

reservations about how it might be received? No I think some of the

:46:06.:46:09.

most honest actual pictures being created today it is. After the death

:46:10.:46:17.

of Mrs Thatcher, Gilbert George, perhaps alone among contemporary

:46:18.:46:23.

artists staked out a bit of pavement near St Paul's. Tory supporters and

:46:24.:46:30.

Monday monarchists wanted to pay their respects. We think the funeral

:46:31.:46:33.

of Mrs Thatcher was a wonderful occasion. A lot of people came out

:46:34.:46:37.

of the offices down towards the street and they wanted our

:46:38.:46:40.

autograph, so there was life in the middle of death. ??FORCEDWHIT Do you

:46:41.:46:51.

ever disagree, does one say I think we should do this and I have hit

:46:52.:46:55.

something here and the other one says no, that would look terrible?

:46:56.:47:00.

We call that the great hetrosexual question. Bill ?FORCEDWHITE Gilbert

:47:01.:47:09.

George, that is all we have time for tonight, good night.

:47:10.:47:15.

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