17/07/2014 Newsnight


Was the Malaysian Airlines plane shot down? Plus tensions in Ukraine, Israeli troops entering Gaza, and an interview with Bill Clinton.

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It is still not certain why the Malaysian Boeing 777 crashed in


eastern Ukraine, killing the it 95 295 people from at least nine


countries. We piece together what happened tonight, and as Ukraine


accuse terrorists military seperatist we assess who had the


capability to bring down the airliner and what the military


implications might be. As the crash prompts talks over a truce whilst


the incident is investigated, we report on how ever more powerful


weaponry is being deployed in the conflict. Israel has launched a


ground offensive against Gaza just after a ceasefire was implemented.


We will talk to a former Palestinian official inside Gaza. We join


President Clinton on a trip to India as he speaks exclusively to


Newsnight about the idea of a second President Clinton in the family. I


can tell you this all these suggestions that you know she feels


entitled to it and all that, that is just not true. That is not true, we


have been in too many races over the last almost 40 years now to believe


in any such thing as a sure deal. Good evening Malaysian airlines


flight MH17 crashed near the border in eastern Ukraine near the rebel


held town of Shaktarsk. Six of the passengers were British, the vast


majority were Dutch, the latest estimates say 154 of the 295 people


on board came from there. Immediately Ukraine's Government and


pro-Russian seperatists traded blame for the disaster, which US


intelligence agencies suggest was caused by a missile.


Hundreds dead, bodies and wreckage spread over a wide area. Most of the


pictures are too traumatic to show. Broken pieces of the plane's wings


are marked with blue and red paint, the colours of Malaysian airlines. I


have just spoken with the Prime Minister of the Netherland and


offered condolences on behalf of the Ukrainian people and asked Dutch


experts to investigate this act of terrorism. I would like to draw your


ascension to the fact that we are not calling it an accident or


disaster but an act of terrorism. Malaysian allonlation airlines


flight left Amsterdam today, Schipol is one of the busiest airports in


the world. It flew east through Germany and Poland before the signal


vanished, directly over disputed territory in eastern Ukraine. It


should have continued on through Afghanistan and India towards Kuala


Lumpur. In recent months seperatists are believed to have shot down a


number of Ukrainian military jets over the region. Commercial airlines


from British airlines -- British Airways to Lufthansa have said they


will divert way from the area. The practice is you could carry on


flying commercial aircraft over 35,000 feet over a conflict zone. It


happened before in Iraq and in Afghanistan during those crises.


Commercial aircraft traditionally would have been beyond the reach of


whatever was going on the ground. Clearly with the incident today this


may now change. This evening the air pays around Donetsk was closed to


all commercial traffic. These pictures from a flight-tracking


website showed commercial jets avoiding the whole region. Today's


crash will prompt tough questions about why that route was being used


at all, given the military tension in the country.


Newsnight has seen a notice from the UK's Civil Aviation Authority


released just last month warning airlines of a potentially hazardous


situation over Ukrainian airspace, particularly Crimea to the south.


Due, it says, to the potential misidentification of civil aircraft.


Ukrainian officials were quick to blame Russian-backed seperatists for


shooting down the airliner. The country's state Security Service


posted what it said were telephone intercepts of the conversation


between two Russian intelligence officers panicking when they


realised the plane was a civilian airliner. The authenticity of these


recordings cannot be confirmed and the rebels have strongly


recordings cannot be confirmed and involvement in the crash. If a


missile was to blame, then hitting an airliner at 33,000 feet will need


expensive military-grade hardware. The Ukrainians claim a BUK


anti-careful missile system like this one was used, it is accepted


that Russia has supplied rebels with military equipment, but there is no


solid proof of something this sophisticated, a launch similar to


this was reported to have been seen this week near a rebel-held town. It


would be a new level of capability for the seperatists in antiaircraft


terms, it would have been supplied from Russia, the smaller man-powered


systems we have seen in rebel hands in recent months are not capable of


reaching an airliner at that altitude, it would be like the


system of the BUK and externally supplied. At the crash site it is


not clear who is responsible for what is a major disaster scene. The


Malaysian Government has warrant it will investigate.


You have just come from a press conference and we now know that of


the 295, 154 pass engers were Dutch. This is a dreadful moment for the


country. It really, in the report they were talking about a national


strategy for Malaysia and certainly for the Netherlands, this evening


here at the airport some of the relatives have been coming here. A


few moments ago an airport bus with about 12 relatives of some of those


on board drove past, we had seen others driving past earlier, this


time round with 12 of them, blank expressions on their faces. It is


just unimaginable the anguish that they are going through at the


moment. At that press conference we are told 154 Dutch people on that


plane, six British, 27 Australians, 23 Malaysians and a variety of


others, French, Belgians and the like. The French Foreign Minister


this evening has said that there must be an inquiry into this, rapid


and urgent inquiry into this. But certainly with the Dutch Prime


Minister returning from an earlier visit to Belgium, cutting short that


visit and returning to the Hague this evening, we expect some more


words from the Dutch Government either in the coming hours or


certainly tomorrow. Was anything said about the investigation,


particularly in relation to the black box, because there are stories


not confirmed that seperatists in Donetsk have that black box? They


weren't telling us anything that I heard about that here at Schipol.


They did say that a team from Malaysian Airlines will shorting be


on its way to Kiev to launch their own investigation, you would have to


imagine that official also do all they could to get their hand on any


information they could, especially the flight recorders.


Thank you very much for joining us. With us now in the studio is Doug


Richardson missiles and rockets engineering for the international


defence review. First of all, we heard in that film there


possibilities of a BUK weapon. Is that a kind of weapon that can hit a


passenger Jetta height? , at that height? As soon as I heard I checked


what level -- a jet, at that height? You can work it out, yes, they are


heavily radared and traffic controlled network, they have a


perfect coverage of what is going on, my suspicion moved to the medium


range category. This weapon can it operate without separate radar? It


can, normally it does, it is vehicle-mounted, a vehicle has a


radar which is all around looking to get the tactical picture. There is a


second vehicle, which is the command post, which receives that


information, where the commander can decide if something is a threat, use


his computers to plan interception and align the job to a missile


launcher. The missile launcher then goes on target. But you know this


idea that the commercial jets could fly above 33,000 feet, can this


rocket launcher not hit targets higher than that? Yes indeed.


20,000ms we believe, which is about 70,000 feet. It was no protection


really to commercial jets to be flying at 33,000 feet? No. Who has


the BUK? The Russians have the BUK, the Ukrainians have the BUK and we


have certainly seen film and images of BUK hardware in the seperatist


hands. So if all these different groups have it, do all these


different groups have the expertise, or is there different levels of


expertise, what I'm getting at here, this was a huge passenger JESHTHS


would they have had any -- jet, would they have had any idea what


they were aiming at? If they had a complete BUK system. The launcher


can operate on its own, it has its own little radar in it, it just


looks forward. I'm looking at you, I'm not ware of the cameras around


here and what they are doing, it is like that. In autonomous mode it can


look at what is in front of it and the local commander can decide what


to engage. That sounds cavalier, they must have known commercial jets


were in the skies? They would have had no way of telling which targets


were commercial or military. Is there any way that any passenger jet


would know of an impending take? No, no warning at all. Is there any way


by looking at the fuselage when the investigators go, that they will


know what it was hit by? I should think so, the distribution of


schrapnal marks on the wreckage and the way it is broken up will give


clues as to what sort of explosives and warhead was used. What do you


think the Intelligence Services will be looking for when they piece this


together? They will be trying to find out who gave the order to fire.


Was it a single launcher operating autonomously, or was this given by a


senior commander. What are the technical signs they can look for.


Presumably if they find the rocket launcher on the ground, will they


have any idea of the target and the trajectory from the launcher itself?


They may have, but if there was any information recorded it could be


deleted. It is extraordinary, if you think about the USS Finsend they


shot down a passenger airliner in 1988, that was you would think the


technology would move on? The BUK is an old system now. But the


Ukrainian, the Russians and seperatists are still using it? Yes


and many other people are using it. The Boeing 777 crash comes after a


series of ground-to-air attacks in eastern Ukraine, one of which downed


a Ukrainian fighter plane yesterday, Ukraine lay the responsibility at


Russia's door for that, but they denied.


Picking through the rubble after what pro-Russian rep cysts say was a


Ukrainian -- seperatists say was a Ukrainian military crash. For this


high stakes battle in the east, the Government has forced rebels out of


former strongholds. It has all added to the misery of the people and


according to outside observers the complexities and dangers of the


conflict. There was a report where the plane went down. Recently we


reported that there are as many as 100 armed groups with as many as


4,000 men in their membership. That is a lot of groups controlling a


relatively small part of the Ukraine. The rebels have been forced


back to their heartland of Donetsk and Luhansk. The fear is the next


phase of the conflict will be even deadlier urban warfare. The rebels


are still claiming their own successes on the ground against


Kiev's force, but the tables have been turned from the early days when


the east seems to be spinning out of Kiev's control. That's adding to the


pressure, not only on the rebels, but also on their friends across the


border in Russia. Footage like this has added to growing western charges


that Moscow is supplying heavy weapons and fighters.


that Moscow is supplying heavy continues to deny. There have been


two fact sheets published in recent days, one by


two fact sheets published in recent ambassador to the EU, one by the


state department in ambassador to the EU, one by the


facts and figures, a lot of video, a lot of satellite pictures of things


like tanks crossing the border, east to west from Russia to Ukraine.


Those kinds of things you can spot. But of course smaller arms or even


rockets no-one knows their exact provenance. But Russia has been


pretty clearly supplying the rebels and supplying them with more in the


last few weeks or so. Families have been fleeing the east's main cities,


fearing a prolonged Government siege is more likely than a possible


ceasefire. The thing that makes it extremely complicated for everybody


is you have smaller rebel groups that aren't necessarily connected


with the bigger ones. So for the longest time we said that the areas


particularly challenging in a sense that larger rebel groups can make


some kind of ceasefire agreement, but it is not necessarily honour bid


the smaller groups. Rebels preparing to make their next stand in Donetsk,


this on going crisis was the biggest post Cold War conflict in Europe. It


is souring relations between the west and Russia. It will make the


fall-out from the downing of the airliner hugely difficult to


predict. I'm joined by my guest, the acting Ukrainian ambassador to the


UK. Good evening. What do you have by way of evidence to call this an


act of terrorism, which indeed your country has done? First of all let


me start by joining my President to the expressions of sympathy to the


victims of the act of terror. We feel it is an act of terror. Ukraine


has a sophisticated system of air traffic control, we know all the


information about the flight. Moreover, we don't have at the


military in the National Guard right now the weapons as capable to shut


down the airliner at such a high altitude. Interesting though,


because Doug Richardson said a minute ago, you might have heard


him, that actually the weapon that was most likely, if indeed this was


a terrorist attack, to have shot down the Malaysian airliner was a


BUK and that is held by the Russians, and Ukrainian forces and


also bicepists in Donetsk. Do you actually have these ground-to-air


missiles? We have in Ukraine, but not over the area of the conflict.


Reportedly some of the BUK systems were taken by the seperatists while


taking the control over the territory which is out of the


Ukrainian power now. I know there are negotiations for a ceasefire,


but all the debris and the dreadful crash screen is in eastern Ukraine


which is in rebel hands just now. What chance do you think that the


Ukrainian Government is going to be able to get into that area to do a


thorough search and recover bodies and for families all over the world,


they need to know that they are going to get their families back?


First of all I would like to inform you that the President ordered to


create the special investigation commission on the participation of


the international experts, including from the Netherlands, Malaysia and


the international civilian aviation organisations which is with the aim


to ensure transparency and a fair investigation. I have the


information, I have heard that the seperatists already found the black


box, very speedy, very fast and they are intending to remove them to


Russia under my information, this is very suspicious. Probably we will


see the same situation as it was during the tragic event where the


Polish President was killed in the crash. Just to be clear for our


viewers, we haven't confirmation that the seperatists have got the


black box, we are only hearing rumours of that, that is not


confirmed. Are you going to ask for that black box if it is in their


hands to come back to you? If we will have the control over that


black box, of course we will act together with the international


experts just tone sure the transparent procedures. Thank you


very much. Well I'm joined now from -- to ensure the procedures. I'm


joined by my guestsures. Thank you very much. Well I'm joined now


What do you make of this? First of all I share the ambassador's view


that it is the room for doubt is shrinking very rapidly. The plane


was clearly shot down, the US Government has now stated that they


saw the missile on the radar. It is clear that it came from, it is clear


where it came from, from eastern Ukraine. The more important point is


the only group of people who have been shooting down planes in Ukraine


in recent days are the seperatists together with their Russian backers.


The Ukrainian army is not shooting down planes because the seperatists


aren't using planes. The only surface-to-air missiles in operation


are coming from the seperatist regions, operated by the seperatist,


together with the Russian experts who know how to use them. Can you


come to you, the allegation will be that the seperatists in eastern


Ukraine are getting their hardware from Russia, and now with these


dreadful fatalities, surely there will be, if it is proved to be the


case that it was the seperatists then the pressure will be on Russia,


will be on Vladimir Putin? The fatalities are on a dreadful scale,


that is really sinking in. I mean the percentage of Dutch people who


were killed in this is greater than the percentage of Americans who were


killed in 9/11. If this was an act of terror this is an act of terror


on a really serious scale. It does point back to Russia and the


Russians have been very quick to react they have already blamed the


Ukrainian Government. That seems unlikely, it seems unlikely that any


Government would be behind this. The weapons' systems seem most he likely


to have brought about this disaster when in the hands of


non-Governmental forces. That is the most likely scenario, and in


addition to the arguments that you had an incomplete system who were


not experienced and shooting down whatever they happened to see. This


is the kind of thing that happens when you deliberately destroy


authorities and allow arms to go across your own border in order to


create chaos. What begins as a kind of political fantasy of Russia that


has territories that will fall into line, now becomes an international


catastrophe, it is the fantasy meeting reality as large numbers of


people have been killed. This idea that it is dreadful catastrophe for


295 families, but it is an international catastrophe, and


Russia is denying any involvement in this. Tell me from where you are


standing, what does it look like for Russia? It looks like very bad news


for Russia, of course. The evidence is accumulating that their clients


in eastern Ukraine were responsible for this. Inevitably it adds to the


international pressures they find themselves under. Not only from the


west, but from the nonaligned, whoa on the whole, so far, have remained


on the fence with regard to this dispute. If the Russians are wise


and they are on the whole pretty shrewd about this stuff, they will


work quite hard to distance themselves from the seperatists in


eastern Ukraine, and they will support investigations of the


incident. They will try to make it clear they get their weapons from


somewhere else. They will continue a process already under way, which is


gradually letting those seperatists go, and let the Ukrainians reoccupy


the east. So what do you think is going on in Moscow right now,


tonight? I think there are probably some anxious conversations going on,


and they will be looking for ways to minimise the damage and, as I say,


to distance themselves from this catastrophe. Is that your analysis?


I would disagree a little bit in that it looks like in the last few


days the Russians have actually been stepping up their involvement with


eastern Ukraine. There have been more weapons coming over the board e


there is more evidence of Russian involvement. There were some


Ukrainian military successes a couple of weeks ago, there has been


a big Russian response recently. So far from pulling out of this or


showing any signs of pulling out of it, they have been pushing the


border more and more and pushing into it. The question is now whether


this is a sufficient wake-up call to anger the west to finally, so we can


finally drop the idea that this is some kind of local people, this is


some kind of movement with legitimacy, and we can now


understand it for what it is, which is a major Russian intervention into


the affairs of its neighbours. A major Russian intervention which


indeed the international community has stepped back from for a while,


do they need to step up to the plate too? Russia has been very successful


of playing the game of masking what it is doing, we are sort of


involved, not really involved, some of our weapons are there, we don't


know how they got there. Now it is time for the west to stop listening


to this game and playing by this ridiculous Russian rhetoric and be


clear of what is happening, this is an invasion. What do you think the


international community should do now about the whole problem in


eastern Ukraine, and the problem with dealing with Russia? In so far


as this action is concerned, I agree with the ambassador, in principle,


it would be good if Russia said now is the time for an international


investigation, thus far, unfortunately, they have done


exactly the opposite. They have asked Ukrainian authorities to give


Russian authorities responsibility for the investigation. Which is


exactly the opposite of what would normally happen in exactly the


opposite of what should happen. This ought to be a turning point where we


begin to destinge given the alternative reality that the Putin


regime has been presenting to us. This is some kind of internal crisis


and Ukrainian affair, that there is something wrong with the Ukrainian


Government and Russia has historical rights. This is an alternative


reality we have shown we can live with, but we ought not. I was going


to say to the formeram bass do is that the problem -- former


ambassador, is it that we in the international community have been


sending the wrong signals and almost part of what is going on in eastern


Ukraine? Well I don't think we have been very effective, but I don't


think the things that we have done have actually been calculated to


push the Russians in the right direction any way. To the extent we


generate the impression in Russia that this is an east versus west


conflict, it becomes much harder for Putin to back off. I accept Anne's


point that the Russians have occasionally moved forward in


backing the seperatists and then occasionally moved back. They have


moved a long way barks they were at one point poised to invade and fight


war in eastern Ukraine. Since then they have let the Ukrainian army


gain traction and space in the area. The product of this event, this


tragic event is I suspect that the Russians will feel constrained to


move further in that direction. That is a good thing but at huge price. I


wanted to turn the ambassador for the last world, what will Ukraine do


and what do you want the rest of the world to do? We need the reaction of


the European countries corporately to deal with this tragic event. We


need assistance, it is clear enough for us that we are fighting with the


military machine, the number three in the world rank. We are not the


richest country of Europe, but we are living in the small European


home where we together standing for our values.


Israel has begun a ground offensive in Gaza with troops landing on the


very beach where four Palestinian boys died yesterday. In a statement


from Binyamin Netanyahu's office, the reason for the offensive was


given as hitting the terror tunnels from Gaza into Israel. While Hamas


warned tonight that the invasion will have dreadful consequences.


Just before we came on air I spoke to our correspondent in Tel Aviv.


Do you think there was an inevitability that the Israelis


would launch a ground invasion, or did something happen today to make


that? The Israelis say that they were all prepared for a ceasefire.


That Egypt had brokered a deal and that Hamas rejected it. We have take


that with a heavy pinch of salt. Neither Egypt for the Israelis are


friends of Hamas. But the one thing that does seem to have tipped the


balance in favour of a ground invasion was this attempted


incursion, infiltration, if you like, by heavily armed Palestinian


gunmen from Gaza this morning into Israeli territory. Their


rocket-propelled grenades and they had automatic weapons. They were


intending to target a kibbutz inside Israel proper. 13 gunmen tried to


make it through. We were down in that area today and there was a huge


military operation taking place on the Israeli side, lots of heavy


armour and well-armed troops. So Israel it does seem that particular


event has pushed Israel further. There are consequences to a ground


incursion, we have already seen 230 civilian, Palestinian civilians


killed through aerial bombardments and naval bombardments, . Gaza is


highly prop populated and Hamas are known to put people as shields. Will


Israel have Hamas under the thumb after all this? I spoke to a Israeli


official a while a he said we are not looking for some kind of Band


Aid solution here, we want something more than that. Israel is not intent


on a temporary pause in stopping Hamas rockets. It wants to stop them


permanently. Is it realistic? Probably not, Israel has to attempt


that. You can't do it from air or sea, if you want to get to the


supplies that Gaza has in its many thousands you need boots on the


ground. When it comes to boots on the ground you start getting Israeli


casualties. We are ten days in to Operation Protective Edge, as it was


called. Only one dead Israeli but many Palestinians. That won't remain


the case when Israeli troops are on the ground. We have seen when they


made a small incursion a few days ago that they suffered casualties,


only light ones but when you send in so many troops, and commanders deep


on the beach in gas star, they will be backed up by troops on the


ground. The likelihood for casualties on both sides increases


dramatically. I spoke to my guest, a professor of political science in


Gaza via Skype. After the efforts by Egypt and many


other countries in the region to try to broker a ceasefire between Hamas


and the Israelis and these efforts did not lead to our positive


results, it was expected that the Israelis sooner or later would start


a ground invasion against the Gaza strip. But I have to admit we didn't


think it would happen tonight. We hope were hoping that there will be


a new ceasefire within the coming 48 hours, it seems to me that the


operations by Hamas operatives today in which Tony Blair team members of


Hamas infiltrated from a tunnel inside Israel, that put more


pressure on the Israeli army to try to invade limited areas of the Gaza


strip to respond back against the infiltration of Hamas members.


Do you think in fact this might finally put paid to Hamas's


strength? It seems to me that Hamas is gaining some support for its be


launching missiles against Israeli towns and villages. It will be too


early to see what the Palestinian mood is. Let me say in my duty to


Palestinians, that they are angry and tired of this repeated scenario,


for the past six years this is war number three against the Gaza strip.


Now I would imagine that the Palestinians are sick and tired of


being subjected to an Israeli war and Israeli aggression. This is not


the time to criticise Hamas, whether right or wrong. The Palestinians


refrain at the moment to get beside Hamas. The majority are keeping


silent to what is happening right now. But once this war is over I


will be very definite that the Palestinians evaluate what they have


gained and lost from this war. And that would be the time to see


whether Hamas has gained or not. Isn't this a chance for the


Palestinian Authority and Fatah to exert some kind of influence and


control over Hamas. This is your last chance? A reconciliation


agreement was reached on April 23rd three months ago, and a new


Government was put into effect on June 2nd, with the approval of


Hamas. It seems to me the Palestinian President, Abbas, is


trying through his diplomatic means to convince Hamas to agree to a


ceasefire with the Israelis, but he wasn't able to convince them Hamas


is basically behaving as the de facto party here in the Gaza strip.


They do not listen to either the President or Fatah. That might have


even bigger ramification force the continuation of the unity Government


between Hamas and Fatah. Once the war is over.


Israel's ambassador to the UK is with me now. Was the decision to


invade taken today as a result of the attempt and on incursion into


invade taken today as a result of the kibbutz or what is the plan?


This is a phased operation, even in the face of these 1,500 rockets


fired on us, we wanted to give Hamas the chance not to escalate, we


wanted to deescalate, that is why we accepted the Egyptian ceasefire


proposal and a humanitarian window today. It was always going to be a


humanitarian window and resumption of hostilities? Even in the face of


it we saw no attempt for Hamas to escalate. The point of the


escalation is not just in the missile, we have had 1,500 rockets


and missiles this month. Also as you said a number of new lethal attacks


including from the sea and these terror tunnels. Including the tunnel


today. We are in a situation where you have had one fatality and the


Palestinians have had nearly 300, most of which are civilians, and


after the four boys yesterday we had three children on a roof feeding


pigeons. This is not going to be pretty at all for the Israelis


either when we grow on the ground. That is why we have tried to avoid


it and not escalate it. In a situation where Hamas insists on


that, and increasing the number of missiles. The civilian toll is


tragic. Pickly our President apologised today for the tragic


incident of the three boys. It is worth rembering today that just


today we felt, as we have been pointing to, our stockpile of Hamas


rockets inside a UN school. When you have that sort of situation... . You


perhaps heard earlier in the programme the comment that this


could never be actually won or lost from the air, it had to be a ground


offensive if you were able to make a point. If you believe the


Palestinians will put up people as human shields you will kill more


civilians and cause fatalities. You were in there for eight years are


you trying to wipe out Hamas? We have made the pledges clear, we have


a situation where 5 million Israelis, more than 50% of our


population, has to reach within bomb shelters because the Gaza strip


doesn't stop firing missiles, if they don't stop we will have to. You


know what the Palestinian people want is peace. Therefore what you of


have have to do is negotiate for the majority of the people. We were


trying hard to negotiate with the Palestinians, but Hamas is not


interested in negotiating, they have made it clear, they have not problem


with, they are not thinking about peace, they are thinking about how


to destroy the state of Israel. All conflict has to be resolved by


negotiation one way or another. You say Hamas is not interested in


negotiating, would the Israelis negotiate with Hamas? The British


Government won't. Either it is a terrorist organisation, here it is a


terrorist organisation, here in Europe it is throughout the world.


When will you leave the Gaza strip who will term when you leave? When


we can in a way that security of our people. We pulled out 8,000 Israelis


and dismandled every settlement and left the greenhouses for an


agricultural culture. And Hamas came in and pulled everyone out. We will


move out if we can ensure the security of our country.


Once an American President always an American President, they keep their


title for life. Bill Clinton hasn't been in the Oval Office for ten


years. He talks about the deal he made with Hillary when she first ran


for the Senate. He was speaking in India as he toured projects on food


production, education and women's wealth supported by the Clinton


foundation. She sat down and asked him how central the idea of equality


is to his work? We have a very special emphasis on it. Not just


women with HIV/AIDS or tuberculosis or Malaria, or the need to prevent


mother-to-child transition. But the overall focus we had to have to


empower women, which requires them to have access to good healthcare.


We are really trying to meet with all these empowerment groups. It is


an issue Hillary started calling "no ceilings". We want to be supportive


of them and not do things that we think are good if they can be a part


of what we are doing. We want to give them a chance to make the most


of their lives. How do you do that in a country that institutionised


inequality through the caste system that says some Indians are better


than others Indians. You have to fight it and you have to do it, I


think, in wherever possible specific concrete ways. Th don't raise all


the cultural red flags. If you find something specific that is


empowering for women and girls, then you can build on it and make it


bigger and better. You are a globalist, you believe in the wider


world here. Politically militarily, America now seems to be moving


towards a noninterventionist position? Certainly on the military


front, I think there are, there is probably a majority of our people


who believe we made a mistake after 9/11 to jump into Iraq. Ooh And who


have been frustrated by the inability to resolve the election in


Afghanistan. Are you one of those people? My gut is we will resolve


that and if they will ask the United States to stay involved. Because


they have, there has really been a lot happen in Afghanistan. I think


that probably that thing will fix itself up in the next few weeks. You


say Afghanistan but don't mention Iraq? I don't know what will happen


in Iraq yesterday. I think that based on what the Iraqi moderate


Sunni do at the end of the gulf conflict they could probably play a


very major role in holding the country together and in sharing


responsibility for the future of the country. But Mr Mallon has


-Al-Maliki has to be consistent on giving them equal partnership or


leave office and given someone else a chance to do that. Is many part of


the solution with America? Are -- is Iran part of the solution with


America? They could be, it will be give if they -- difficult if they


keep asking for amount of centre fewing and -- centre fuge more than


anyone else. There is very little leadership coming from America right


now? They west need leadership, is that what you said. Don't we? Yes,


but we have to deal with the intervening event. We are now


involved in a very intense set of negotiations with Iran. Over how


much of their, of their centrefuges they are going to take adown. We


need to have alliances in the Iran, Iraq and Syria area. In terms of


Israel and Gaza. When you were President you were the mediate to


very hands on, now there is no Egypt, there is no America there? I


was, but we also remember we had a very different circumstance there.


That is there was an operating majority in Israel under both Prime


Minister Netenyahu and Mr Rabin before. And then Barak afterwards,


to keep working with the Palestinians and keep trying to work


things out. It was a lot easier to do it when the Government wants to


do it. Let's talk a little clears to home, how transformative will it be


to have a woman President in the White House? Do I think it would be


a good thing. Do you think it would be transformative? Depending on what


the President did. It would be at one level transformative just


because we have never had a woman elected, so I think that would be a


good thing, but if the President showed a remarkable gift for both


strength and toughness and for leaving the door open constantly for


negotiation. That would be a good thing, it would represent what most


people think of. Almost archetypal women's strengths you know. He


always says women had the responsibility gene so you can be


strong but you also we're going to have to govern with a level of


co-operation that we are not used to right now. Are you ready to go on


the road for another two years, full slog? No, what I'm ready to do is


whatever she wants me to do. I really do believe, I know a lot of


people don't believe me when I say this. We have had great life. We


love what we are doing now in this foundation. On the other hand if you


are President you have the opportunity to do things no-one else


does. But you have to really have a theory of the case, you have to have


ideas, politics and work at it. And it is an exhausting thing. I have


told Hillary repeatedly she would have to make this decision, if she


wants my opinion I will give it to her. She wasn't asked for your


opinion on whether she should run? Absolutely not. For the last 14


years she has had more hands on political experience than I have.


First time in our lives. When she ran the last time in 2008 people


kept asking me what I think, I just said I think it is her time and she


gets to decide and if I can help I will. But we were mashied a very


long -- married a very long time when she was deferring to my


political career and policy making. I told her when she got elected to


the Senate in New York that she had given me 26 years. So I intended to


give her 26 years. Whatever she wanted to do was fine with me. If


shen't whatted to know my opinion I would tell her. But she had cart e


blanche to make whatever decision she wanted to and tell me what I


needed to do. I have honoured that. We have just past the half way mark


and I have got to live another 12 years or so. So I guess I will have


to be living to be 20 to be free at last. It is very important to us and


I want her if she wants the job and she believes she can make a real


difference and she has ideas to do it. I will be glad to help. I will


do whatever I can. But I can tell you this, all these suggestions that


she feels entitled to it, that is just not true. That is not true, we


have been in too many races over the last 40 years now to believe in any


such thing as a sew deal. Bill Clinton. That's all we have time for


until tomorrow night, good night. Thunderstorms around as well, and


during the day on Friday they will continue to move in order warts from


North Wales over North West England into Northern Ireland and south-west


Scotland. Heat and


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