15/07/2014 Newsnight


15/07/2014

The reshuffle and Gove? A policeman who says he was stopped from investigating child abuse allegations. A war photographer in Helmand. With Laura Kuenssberg.


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exclusively to the man who secured convictions for the murder of

:00:10.:00:14.

Stephen Lawrence, he says senior interference stopped him

:00:15.:00:16.

investigating child abuse allegations in the 1990s after he

:00:17.:00:21.

named the suspects. I was informed that was inappropriate and that in

:00:22.:00:27.

fact I would be moved from my post. That information included

:00:28.:00:33.

politicians' names? Yeah, correct. Former detective Clive Driscoll also

:00:34.:00:38.

shares fresh revelation about how the inquiry into Stephen Lawrence's

:00:39.:00:43.

murder looked from the inside. Stephen's friend Dwyane Brooks is

:00:44.:00:48.

here. The longest walk in politics, Michael Gove goes into Number Ten as

:00:49.:00:53.

Education Secretary and comes out as something rather more junior. Why?

:00:54.:01:00.

What happens when you send an artist to Helmand? I wish on reflection

:01:01.:01:04.

that I hadn't gone to Helmand, sending an artist to a warzone is a

:01:05.:01:08.

complex moral and ethical responsibility. Making work under

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those conditions is life-changing. Good evening. It took 18 years after

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his death before two of his killers were put behind bars. But tonight,

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the detective who built the case against Stephen Lawrence's killers

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has told Newsnight that inside the Met some people never wanted a

:01:35.:01:39.

successful prosecution. Speaking exclusively to Newsnight for the

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first time since he retired Clive Driscoll says he believes there were

:01:44.:01:47.

disruption tactics during his inquiry. He also claims that when he

:01:48.:01:52.

was investigating child abuse that took place in the 1980s he was moved

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from his post when he revealed suspect he is wanted to investigate

:01:58.:02:02.

including politicians. Here is his story.

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Getting to the truth few criminal cases have done more to test that

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promise than Stephen Lawrence's murder. When truth was be a secured

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by mistakes and fear, trust in the police fell away. Crimes they just

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could not or would not resolve. The detective who convicted Lawrence's

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killers is now ready to reveal how obstacles were put in the way of his

:02:42.:02:49.

investigations. Some people did not want a successful prosecution.

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Tonight I tells us how in that case and his inquiry into child abuse in

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1980s Lambeth, barriers, even politics, appeared. At the time I

:03:03.:03:08.

just felt that it was all too uncomfortable to a lot of people. In

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these most contentious of cases has truth been a victim too?

:03:17.:03:23.

Clive Driscoll worked for the Met for more than three decades until

:03:24.:03:28.

just a few weeks ago, his detective work led finally to the successful

:03:29.:03:32.

convictions of Stephen Lawrence's killers. What he describes as his

:03:33.:03:38.

for that politically-charged case was perhaps just as contentious. At

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that time the detective's involvement had a very different

:03:43.:03:46.

autooutcome. In 1998 he worked in child protection and was moved to

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investigate allegations of child abuse in children's homes in Lambeth

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in south London, alleged to have taken place in the 1980s. But his

:03:55.:04:00.

lines of inquiry quickly proved just too awkward. There was a mistrust on

:04:01.:04:06.

both sides. It appeared that certainly that people didn't trust

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the Metropolitan Police Service and I think the Metropolitan Police

:04:11.:04:14.

Service possibly didn't trust some of the people it was working with. A

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bit like young Stephen's investigation, I never felt there

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was wall of silence, but whenever people spoke to you and shared their

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fears and their story about what they had seen, it was almost on a

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proviso that they wouldn't make a statement and that they would be

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scared if you released who those people were that were talking for

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fear of reprisals. It was a very, very difficult climate for people to

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come forward in. But, very bravely, in my opinion, they did come

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forward, and I passed the names on that had been passed to me as

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potential suspects. When he revealed those names, including politicians

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at a case meeting he was taken off the investigation and subjected to a

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disciplinary. After discussing internally with the Metropolitan

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Police Service whether or not I should release certain information

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to Lambeth Council, which I hadn't done up until then, it was agreed by

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my senior management team that That is That is what -- that is what I

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should do. And I disclosed suspects' names and I was informed that was

:05:29.:05:33.

inappropriate and I would be moved from my post. That information

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included politicians' names as potential suspects? There was

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actually a mix. There were certainly some of the names of people that

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were locally working, some people that were, if you like, working

:05:46.:05:49.

nationally, but there was quite a mix really, because of, it appeared

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that it was connected to other boroughs and other movements around

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the country. To be clear, when you say a mix, you mean some local

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political figures? Yeah, correct. And MPs? That's correct, yeah. Do

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you fear that you were stopped from investigating those claims because

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you suspected more than one politician of being involved in

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child abuse? At the time I just felt that it was all too uncomfortable to

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a lot of people. After Clive Driscoll moved, investigations

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continued to look at more than 20 children's homes and are still on

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going. There have been several convictions, the Met is now looking

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into his claims concerning his removal from the investigation and

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have called him to a meeting in Scotland Yard this week. Stephen ran

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crossing the road and he ran and eventually died up on the right-hand

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side of the road there. That experience made Clive Driscoll more

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determined to pursue the truth, ultimately in the Lawrence case,

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equally controversial. The Met's initial flawed attempts to find his

:06:59.:07:02.

killers in the weeks that followed his death got nowhere. We are in a

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position today where we have an opportunity to learn and we have an

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opportunity to maybe put right some of the wrongs that have come out in

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recent times. There was no doubt that there were mistakes made in

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this decision. There was much debate about whether those mistakes were

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corruption mistakes or incompetent mistakes. Prosecutors then didn't

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find enough evidence to charge anyone the family's own private

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attempts to prosecute collapsed. Despite in 1999 a major inquiry,

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where suspects had to give evidence, and the first investigation was

:07:39.:07:44.

found to be flawed, in 2004 again the CPS ruled out another trial. In

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your view were most of the mistakes down to competence, or was there

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something more sinister? The difference betwe incompetence and

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corruption is a bit like a bad tackle in football. The person who

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knows is the person who made the tackle. I can be incompetent all day

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long if you want. What was your sense? My sense was I couldn't work

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certain things out. There was certain incidents and inquires that

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didn't appear to be progressed. There were certain parts of the

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investigation that really didn't make any sense to me at all. But I

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never investigated whether that was corruption or incompetence. In 2005

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the Government changed the law. It was now possible to try suspects for

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the same crime twice. Clive Driscoll was put in charge, after years of

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disappointment he first had to persuade the Lawrences and the key

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witness, Stephen's friend, Dwayne Brooks to trust and confide in him.

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It is your deeply-held belief that there were people at senior levels

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in the Met that were almost hoping this investigation would fail. You

:09:01.:09:04.

felt that pressure? There were certainly people in senior levels in

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the Met that weren't enthusiastic about the investigation, I certainly

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felt that. You know, as I have said before, it is a very serious

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allegation to make and I don't have evidence that I could present to any

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tribunal for that. It is certainly what I felt was that people in

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places I would have expected to have had the enthusiasm didn't. And you

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were so concerned about that you even made that complaint to senior

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officers? I actually did send an e-mail to senior officers explaining

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that I felt that it could be seen, if somebody came behind and actually

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looked at what was going on, I think they would probably see it as a

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disruption tactic. So yes, I did put that in writing. David Norris and

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Gary Dobson were convicted of murder. But still the handling of

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the original case continued to challenge the Met's reputation. This

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year an independent review found failures and reasonable grounds to

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suspect corruption. That inquiry asked the met for full disclosure,

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even then Clive Driscoll says there were discussions about handing

:10:22.:10:26.

everything over. Including a document on covert recording of key

:10:27.:10:35.

witness Dwyane Brooks. He have been told of incidents where senior

:10:36.:10:40.

officers were accused of holding back documents? That's correct. I

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would urge them to think about that and think about it and I would urge

:10:45.:10:47.

them to think about it was the Home Secretary and the Home Secretary and

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the mayor have every right to know what we are doing. You know that

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very senior officers discussed holding back some documents with

:10:55.:11:00.

lawyers? You could call it a culture, it could be just a mind set

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that you have to defend the Metropolitan Police. That is the

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only reason you have a lawyer there, to defend, well you don't have to

:11:09.:11:11.

defend the Metropolitan Police Service, if the Home Secretary or

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the mayor ask for something, well you give it to them. But one bad

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decision around disclosure undoes the remarkable work that police

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officers do up and down the country. And for me, just be open and honest,

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warts and all. The Met told us no relevant material was intentionally

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withheld, their policy was to be open and transparent, and they are

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still committed to continuing the Lawrence investigation. Doreen

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Lawrence still speaks to Clive Driscoll most days. She has little

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contact with the rest of the Met. He says the relationship is as bad as

:11:53.:11:57.

just after Stephen's death. Although he believes there could yet be more

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convictions. If you were the Lawrence family would you trust the

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Met? If I was the Lawrence family, no I probably wouldn't. How do you

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feel about that given the years of hard work, effort, struggle almost,

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first of all to win their trust, and then to finally prosecute the case?

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I actually feel desperately sorry for them. I think that they have

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lost their son, let's never forget, that they lost a much-loved son, it

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is almost like reliving the trauma of that. For Driscoll the priority

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for the police past and present must now be complete and total openness,

:12:42.:12:46.

after the Lawrence case tore trust away, suspicions is the only path to

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go. Before you said you weren't sure if it was incompetence or corruption

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in the early investigation. What does corruption look like? A

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question I have asked myself many times, what is corruption? Is it

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going behind a pub somewhere and getting an envelope of ?50 notes, or

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is corruption that you don't go down a certain path, you don't follow a

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certain inquiry and therefore you make someone very happy that you

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haven't followed that inquiry, therefore your next promotion is

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easier for you, your CV looks a bit more glamorous. By the time you

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finish your career and at the end of your pension you could have earned

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considerably more than what you would ever stuff in an envelope, so

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what is corruption? My concern is that the result for the grieving

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family or the victim or for justice is exactly the same, is that justice

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has been thwarted, and that can't happen at any cost, because the

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reality is that is the rule of law, it is part of our freedom. Dwyane

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Brooks who we saw in the film is with us tonight. Thank you very much

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for coming in. You would be forgiven, with everything that

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happened with the Met for not trusting them at all, what was it

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about Clive Driscoll when he took over the case that was different?

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Clive just comes across as a very honest person, down to earth, south

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London person. Bit of Cockney, every now and again in his language. For

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me he was just completely different from all the other officers that I

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had dealt with. I gave him a chance. He said to me, Duwayno I can crack

:14:35.:14:45.

this case! I thought let's give him a go. Did you believe him? No, I

:14:46.:14:52.

didn't believe him. But he made a tremendous amount of effort to

:14:53.:14:56.

convince me that it could be done. I had no other choice but to trust

:14:57.:15:04.

him. And Clive and his team came through. When he did come through

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and there were successful convictions in the end, what were

:15:10.:15:17.

your feelings and the Lawrence family's feelings about this? I felt

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that the Met should have come out and said well done Clive and Peter

:15:22.:15:25.

and members of the team, well done. You have done something that nobody

:15:26.:15:32.

else thought was possible, but it didn't happen. I'm still baffled as

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to why senior members of the Metropolitan Police haven't come out

:15:37.:15:41.

and said thank you to Clive and his team. Why do you think that might

:15:42.:15:45.

be? We have seen from the clip why it could be. Because there were

:15:46.:15:49.

senior officers in the Met who just did not want there to be a

:15:50.:15:56.

conviction in this case. You felt that too? Along the way, yes, up

:15:57.:16:01.

until Clive got involved. Once life was involved the communication we

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had was constant he kept kept me up-to-date about the issues and what

:16:11.:16:13.

had was constant he kept kept me he needed to do. For me it was just

:16:14.:16:16.

a matter of time. As we saw we had two convictions. The Met would say

:16:17.:16:19.

they were always committed to the investigation, they were always

:16:20.:16:22.

committed to trying to get convictions, but now Clive has

:16:23.:16:29.

retired, just a matter of weeks ago, do you believe there is still a

:16:30.:16:32.

prospect of there being more convictions in the case? Without

:16:33.:16:36.

Clive leading a team, no. I don't think it is possible. All the work

:16:37.:16:42.

that Clive and his team have done over the past seven, eight years, it

:16:43.:16:47.

will all be lost. It is all going to be lost? I don't think the officers

:16:48.:16:52.

who have taken over now are in the same league as Clive and his

:16:53.:16:55.

previous team, I don't think they have got the leadership or

:16:56.:16:58.

communication skills. On communication, do you talk to them?

:16:59.:17:00.

Would you talk to them? I communication, do you talk to them?

:17:01.:17:08.

spoken to any of the new team at the moment. When I speak

:17:09.:17:15.

spoken to any of the new team at the see everybody who was involved

:17:16.:17:22.

convicted. Would I be able to trustn them, I don't know. Why not? Because

:17:23.:17:27.

the way Clive would have been treated, is not how I would expect

:17:28.:17:36.

the Metropolitan Police to trust a person who has got a conviction when

:17:37.:17:42.

anybody else could. Clive is leaving for retirement and in perfectly

:17:43.:17:46.

reasonable conditions and nothing improper has gone in any way. Do you

:17:47.:17:50.

feel you would ever have been able to trust the force again, without

:17:51.:17:54.

him you have said you wouldn't? In relation to the Lawrence case it

:17:55.:17:57.

would be difficult for me to trust officers coming in now, because of

:17:58.:18:00.

the way Clive has been treated. But if we were talking about the

:18:01.:18:03.

Metropolitan Police on the whole, well of course I trust them. We have

:18:04.:18:08.

thousands and thousands of rank and file officers that do a great job

:18:09.:18:12.

day in and day out and they protect us all in this fabulous city. In the

:18:13.:18:16.

Lawrence case it is a bit different from generally the Metropolitan

:18:17.:18:19.

Police who I do support, who I do trust. What do you feel about

:18:20.:18:23.

documents, including those relating to you being bugged during those

:18:24.:18:28.

early days of the inquiry. How do you feel about those being withheld,

:18:29.:18:33.

the Met says absolutely not intentionally, what do you feel

:18:34.:18:36.

about that? Saddened, but I'm not surprised. But it is astonishing

:18:37.:18:42.

that the Home Secretary can order an inquiry, order the Met to disclose

:18:43.:18:48.

all relevant information and the Met take legal advice and do the

:18:49.:18:51.

opposite. So we have heard in that piece that the Met say they are

:18:52.:18:54.

open, they want to be transparent, fine, let's be transparent. Publish

:18:55.:19:00.

the legal advice tomorrow. Let's see how transparent the Met really are.

:19:01.:19:05.

The Met says it is still committed to this investigation, they have

:19:06.:19:08.

still got resources on it, they have got that new team they talked about,

:19:09.:19:13.

do you believe they are committed to it? You are not talking to them yet?

:19:14.:19:18.

I haven't seen any evidence of that. So at the moment in time I don't

:19:19.:19:23.

believe so. The only evidence I have seen around this investigation is

:19:24.:19:26.

the way they have treated Clive Driscoll and his team, a team that

:19:27.:19:31.

secured a conviction that we all believed wasn't possible. Briefly,

:19:32.:19:37.

how often, how much do you still think about what happened all those

:19:38.:19:43.

years ago? It will stay with me forever. It was a night that I

:19:44.:19:47.

wished didn't happen. If I had the chance to turn back time of course,

:19:48.:19:51.

I would turn back time and make different decisions on that night,

:19:52.:19:55.

but it has happened, we have to move on, we have to be successful. To

:19:56.:20:00.

show that even though you do have bad times in your life you can move

:20:01.:20:04.

on and be successful, so I have been trying to do that. But also the

:20:05.:20:10.

message needs to go out to other victims of crime that even though

:20:11.:20:14.

things may be hard, at the end of the day justice is still possible.

:20:15.:20:19.

Thank you very much for coming in and talking to us tonight.

:20:20.:20:23.

Reshuffles are the equivalent of tacking up a couple of new pictures

:20:24.:20:27.

on the walls of the Cabinet Room. Others moving a couple of shares an.

:20:28.:20:31.

This time well there has been proper heavy lifting. David Cameron has

:20:32.:20:34.

striped two of his biggest and brightest names of the full comfort

:20:35.:20:40.

of a full season cabinet, he's a modest number of women into the

:20:41.:20:48.

room, sent a relative unknown into Europe to represent our interests,

:20:49.:20:54.

and finally put one of his most devisive colleagues in charge of,

:20:55.:20:57.

wait for it, team work. You may wonder what the Government will do

:20:58.:21:02.

differently, very much? It took eight hours to carry out, eight

:21:03.:21:06.

hours you don't have, so here is Newsnight's eight things you need to

:21:07.:21:11.

know about the reshuffle. # Every day I'm shuffling

:21:12.:21:15.

So first thing this morning one of those oldies explained David

:21:16.:21:19.

Cameron's strategy. He doesn't have many reshuffles which is a very good

:21:20.:21:23.

thing. And then he wants a reshuffle which gives a Government which looks

:21:24.:21:27.

like the sort of Government he wants in the next parliament. Who does

:21:28.:21:33.

that mean in practice. Chances are if you are male, pale and a

:21:34.:21:37.

middle-aged Tory minister then yesterday afternoon you were asked

:21:38.:21:40.

to David Cameron's private study in parliament over there and asked if

:21:41.:21:43.

you want to retire. If you didn't want to retire you would have been

:21:44.:21:47.

retired in time for Newsnight last night when we got a slew of

:21:48.:21:50.

resignations from the Government. This morning Newsnight was up with

:21:51.:21:53.

the lark to find out who the lucky ones are, including the chap who has

:21:54.:21:58.

walked behind me, the new Welsh Secretary. The guys who walk through

:21:59.:22:01.

the door today are who the Tory Party think are the face of modern

:22:02.:22:09.

Britain. Average outgoing age 48, in coming 32. He wasn't lucky, the

:22:10.:22:16.

biggest jobs went to men, Philip Hammond, Foreign Secretary. The

:22:17.:22:20.

number of women attending cabinet today nearly doubled from five to

:22:21.:22:25.

eight, new roles for women in education and environment. But we

:22:26.:22:28.

have been told it would rain women in this reshuffle and in the end it

:22:29.:22:32.

was more of a light shower. No female Defence Secretary for

:22:33.:22:35.

instance, Esther McVey had been tipped for a full blown cabinet

:22:36.:22:40.

post, in the end she said stayed in her current job and got added

:22:41.:22:46.

permission to attend cabinet. Stow stow Tina Stowell is the leader of

:22:47.:22:50.

the Lords, but not a full blown cabinet minister, strange. David

:22:51.:22:53.

Cameron once criticised people, to put it mildly, for tweeting too

:22:54.:22:57.

much, but today every appointment came on Twitter. One tweet shocked

:22:58.:23:02.

everyone. The news that all of us here are digesting is that Michael

:23:03.:23:05.

Gove is being moved from his position as Education Secretary to

:23:06.:23:09.

become Chief Whip, which is something that nobody expected.

:23:10.:23:14.

After 30 years of friendship the Prime Minister removed Michael Gove

:23:15.:23:19.

from his job and vocation. That's fantastic, this is the very hungry

:23:20.:23:25.

catterpillar. Cameron's pollsters decided he was too unpopular with

:23:26.:23:29.

teachers, and the zeal that landed the Cameron Government its radical

:23:30.:23:34.

chick was now a problem. As whip's central to the next campaign, but

:23:35.:23:37.

colleagues told Newsnight he feels very bruised. Spin was also a winner

:23:38.:23:43.

today, Esther McVey, William Hague, Michael Gove and Grant Shapps, who

:23:44.:23:48.

stays as chairman, these people are all in jobs not purely frontline

:23:49.:23:51.

politics, but communicating the Tory vision. I'm flattered to be asked by

:23:52.:23:55.

the Prime Minister to be at the heart of his team, deciding on the

:23:56.:24:00.

people, the ideas and the policies shaping not just the next nine

:24:01.:24:03.

months but we hope the next Conservative Government. The Prime

:24:04.:24:05.

Minister has asked me to make sure we have the team in place and the

:24:06.:24:09.

ideas in place to ensure that the long-term economic plan, which is

:24:10.:24:13.

now at last generating economic growth can benefit everyone in the

:24:14.:24:16.

country. This reshuffle didn't really have a bias, the cabinet did

:24:17.:24:21.

lose big right-wing hitters, but the wider Government saw many on the

:24:22.:24:25.

right promoted. Instead the Tories seem to be pressing pause on all of

:24:26.:24:31.

policy. Today we learned Lord Hill is the Prime Minister's choice to be

:24:32.:24:36.

our EU Commissioner. Nigel Farage was quick to ask Lord who? But there

:24:37.:24:40.

was substantial movement today on Europe. We have a more euro-sceptic

:24:41.:24:46.

cabinet on that sending a signal both to voters here at home but also

:24:47.:24:50.

to Europe that Cameron is serious now, this is getting real it is also

:24:51.:24:55.

laying the ground work for the big renegotiation that is meant to take

:24:56.:24:59.

place ahead of that potential 2017 referendum. The Chancellor's

:25:00.:25:07.

tentacles tightened their grip on Government. George Osborne's former

:25:08.:25:10.

aide Clare Perry, pretending to be a train, she went to transport, one of

:25:11.:25:15.

many promoted, all potentially readying George Osborne for a

:25:16.:25:18.

leadership bit in 2018. That is a long time away. Tonight David

:25:19.:25:22.

Cameron's last reshuffle before the 2015 election is done, and the great

:25:23.:25:26.

offices of Whitehall have become glorified election campaign

:25:27.:25:32.

headquarters. Our political editor is with us now, Allegra what does

:25:33.:25:36.

this all mean the Government will actually do differently in the next

:25:37.:25:39.

ten months? I don't think they are going to do very much in the next

:25:40.:25:42.

ten months. They will look different, so we have this massive

:25:43.:25:46.

change of people coming on programmes like our's. So they will

:25:47.:25:50.

look given. Different. There will be a lot of manifesto pledge, we will

:25:51.:25:53.

get what they would like to do the other side of a general election. In

:25:54.:25:57.

terms of what they will actually do, it won't be very much. Michael Gove

:25:58.:26:02.

has been embarrassingly nothing at all, for no reason the change. What

:26:03.:26:06.

really happened there? Michael Gove is still in a team with colleagues,

:26:07.:26:10.

he's still David Cameron's friend of 30 years and George Osborne's friend

:26:11.:26:15.

of a long time, but what actually happened we believe he was happy to

:26:16.:26:19.

go to it because he wanted to pull together, but the idea that this

:26:20.:26:24.

radical idealogue, whatever you want to call him, was happy to be moved,

:26:25.:26:28.

is far fetched, I know from colleagues he feels bruised this

:26:29.:26:31.

evening. What we will be look to go see in the next couple of days is

:26:32.:26:34.

quite whether he manages to keep a lid on it. It would be a first in

:26:35.:26:40.

politics, somebody happy to be demoted. Descriptions of Michael

:26:41.:26:44.

Gove range very far and wide, as Education Secretary he will be

:26:45.:26:48.

thanked by generations to come for his radical reforms. A demented

:26:49.:26:52.

Dalek trying to change the teaching profession, or a charming bully who

:26:53.:26:57.

lost out for overstepping the mark too many times. Whatever you think,

:26:58.:27:01.

and he's still Chief Whip, he has never committed the ultimate faux

:27:02.:27:13.

pas, being dull! Will his reforms really last?

:27:14.:27:16.

The teaching unions don't always reflect the views of their members,

:27:17.:27:19.

but when it came to Michael Gove, the former Education Secretary, they

:27:20.:27:25.

did. In general teachers wanted rid of him, and today they got their

:27:26.:27:29.

wish. He's not even a Secretary of State any more. A lot of teachers

:27:30.:27:38.

have been celebrating today. So this reshuffle will be seen as wane for

:27:39.:27:45.

the educationalists who oppose Mr Gove's reform, often bbed "the

:27:46.:27:54.

blob". Should they be celebrating? Let's see what he Z his first move

:27:55.:27:58.

was the introduction of converter academies, more than half of

:27:59.:28:02.

secondary schools took part in the programme. It meant for those

:28:03.:28:05.

schools instead of being funded by and overseen by local authorities,

:28:06.:28:08.

they were instead directly answerable to the Department for

:28:09.:28:11.

Education. They also got a lot more freedom over their teachers' pay and

:28:12.:28:16.

the curriculum, that gave them the ability to depart from national

:28:17.:28:20.

norms when it came to hiring and what they chose to teach.

:28:21.:28:24.

The second of his big policies was the introduction of so called free

:28:25.:28:29.

school, he introduced a presumption that new schools should be opened by

:28:30.:28:34.

private groups, rather than by local authorities. The idea was that

:28:35.:28:37.

rather than having the same old people running schools, you will get

:28:38.:28:42.

dynamism and choice and competition by allowing new providers into the

:28:43.:28:49.

schools' market place. Michael Gove also tried to reform what was being

:28:50.:28:54.

taught inside schools, he tweaked the cirriculum to put more emphasis

:28:55.:28:58.

on knowledge and less on skills. He changed the structure of exams so

:28:59.:29:03.

there was less course work and more so called linear exams, that is old

:29:04.:29:08.

fashioned exams at the end of the course. Many of the ideas are long

:29:09.:29:11.

in the tooth. For the last four years in education it has been a

:29:12.:29:15.

period of enormous change, many of the changes are changes that are

:29:16.:29:21.

really accelrate rating change -- accelerating change and processes

:29:22.:29:25.

already in place, especially new types of schools, academies,

:29:26.:29:29.

converters and free schools, moving power to schools. Not only did Mr

:29:30.:29:34.

Gove's opponents fail to stop the reform which is have weakened local

:29:35.:29:37.

authorities and union, but they have been losing for decades. One novelty

:29:38.:29:42.

is in his hurry Mr Gove accrued a lot of power to the Department for

:29:43.:29:47.

Education. Perhaps the contradictions, public and private,

:29:48.:29:52.

have become overwhelming. Public in terms of preaching that there should

:29:53.:29:55.

be complete autonomy for schools, and then imposing from the

:29:56.:30:00.

department and other agencies absolute direction from the centre

:30:01.:30:04.

personally, because when you talk to him in private he's both charming

:30:05.:30:10.

and prepared to listen. But in public he appears beligerant and

:30:11.:30:16.

unprepared to listen. It seems that the oversight of schools will change

:30:17.:30:21.

in the coming years, but there is no support for less school autonomy,

:30:22.:30:30.

and high-content curriculums are current teaching fashion. A recent

:30:31.:30:34.

poll found he was the Tory politician most disliked by members

:30:35.:30:37.

of the public. Perhaps his approach to people who disagree with him is

:30:38.:30:41.

something to do with it. What I can tell you is that outstanding

:30:42.:30:46.

teachers and outstanding head teachers are I find overwhelmily in

:30:47.:30:51.

favour of what we are doing. It is the bad ones that don't get it? Yes.

:30:52.:30:56.

Maybe he needs to learn that even if you are winning against the blob,

:30:57.:31:02.

you didn't do everything alone. We did invite the Government's new

:31:03.:31:06.

Chief Whip and the man David Cameron says has an enhanced role doing

:31:07.:31:12.

broadcast interviews, to come on Newsnight again, for a broadcast

:31:13.:31:16.

interview tonight, he was unavailable, nor was any other

:31:17.:31:20.

Conservative cabinet minister able to come on. Rather than leave the

:31:21.:31:25.

chair empty, fortunately Labour's Shadow educational secretary is

:31:26.:31:30.

here. Were you shocked that your opposite number was out? I got the

:31:31.:31:34.

sense that the Education Secretary had rather run out of road in recent

:31:35.:31:39.

months. What we saw was David Cameron realising what pupils and

:31:40.:31:41.

parents and teachers have realised is that Government education policy

:31:42.:31:45.

is damaging school standard. So whether it was unqualified teachers,

:31:46.:31:50.

whether it was taking money from the schools' budget for free schools.

:31:51.:31:55.

Whether it was downgrading technical and vocational skills, all of this

:31:56.:31:59.

was affecting the Government popularity and finally the Prime

:32:00.:32:02.

Minister acted. It was really his very public spat with Theresa May

:32:03.:32:08.

and politicking around Take That got rid of him? That played a part, but

:32:09.:32:13.

also what we need to realise tonight and my message tonight is the

:32:14.:32:16.

architect might have gone but the ideology remains n terms of an

:32:17.:32:22.

atomised schools system, and focus on unqualified teachers the

:32:23.:32:26.

classroom. All of these things remain Government policy even with

:32:27.:32:29.

Michael Gove moving on. Most of them in their origin were actually new

:32:30.:32:35.

Labour ideas? The academy programme was a new Labour programme, school

:32:36.:32:39.

autonomy was a new Labour programme. When Michael Gove built on those

:32:40.:32:43.

issues in the early years was fine. We are only in year four? You saw in

:32:44.:32:48.

the last interview, maybe it is what happens to a Secretary of State, but

:32:49.:32:52.

he became more ideolgical and antagonistic and more devisive, we

:32:53.:32:57.

didn't take the teaching profession with him. If you want real

:32:58.:33:00.

sustainable change over time, the people delivering that in the

:33:01.:33:05.

classroom are the teachers f you antagonise them so much you won't be

:33:06.:33:09.

able to make the changes you want, whether knowledge-rich curriculum or

:33:10.:33:14.

linear exams or the other elements. For teachers and parents watching up

:33:15.:33:16.

and down the country, it is really about the changes he wanted to make,

:33:17.:33:20.

not whether or not he wound people up with how he made them. You said

:33:21.:33:26.

yourself in certain situations his reforms build rather successfully on

:33:27.:33:31.

Labour Party policy? I think there is now a growing consensus about the

:33:32.:33:36.

need for autonomous schools, strong leadership. Where we differ from the

:33:37.:33:39.

Government is we think schools should be co-operating, challenging

:33:40.:33:44.

and partnering each other. We have a Government that likes to think of

:33:45.:33:47.

schools in isolation. We saw the results of that law in Birmingham FA

:33:48.:33:50.

want to think about a symbol of results of that law in Birmingham FA

:33:51.:33:55.

atomised, fragmented education system, you have to look at

:33:56.:34:01.

atomised, fragmented education events in Birmingham. The big

:34:02.:34:04.

principles and the reasons why some people might think about choosing

:34:05.:34:06.

Labour rather than voting Conservative, is because they didn't

:34:07.:34:09.

like the sound of what Michael Gove was doing. In fact, you would not

:34:10.:34:15.

get rid of existing free schools, you support performance-related pay

:34:16.:34:19.

that is one of the things so contentious with the unions. On the

:34:20.:34:25.

big principles you agree? The biggest difference between us is we

:34:26.:34:31.

know that the most important element in a young person's education is the

:34:32.:34:35.

quality of teaching. In this Government we have focus on

:34:36.:34:38.

relentless structural reform, as if changing the name of a school to a

:34:39.:34:42.

free school or academy does the job, it doesn't. The most important

:34:43.:34:46.

element is improving the teaching and leadership in the school. That

:34:47.:34:49.

is a big policy difference. This Government has let more and more

:34:50.:34:52.

unqualified teachers into our classrooms. It has downgraded the

:34:53.:34:57.

teaching profession and the best education systems around the world

:34:58.:35:01.

has have qualified masters level teachers. You know the vast majority

:35:02.:35:05.

of teachers in classm radios right now, in new schools as a product of

:35:06.:35:09.

Michael Gove's reforms are still qualified teachers, and the

:35:10.:35:12.

important point for our viewers and parents around the country tonight,

:35:13.:35:16.

would you not get rid of existing free schools and you support

:35:17.:35:20.

performance-related pay, the things that Michael Gove had such trouble

:35:21.:35:23.

convincing the teaching profession of, and you wouldn't get rid of

:35:24.:35:27.

either of those things? We are not interested in simply change for

:35:28.:35:31.

change's sake. We see a lot of grandstanding and party politicking.

:35:32.:35:37.

We will keep the reforms that are sensible, we won't throw things up

:35:38.:35:42.

in terms of curriculum. We will focus crucially on the forgotten 50%

:35:43.:35:47.

of young people who want to pursue technical and vocational pathways.

:35:48.:35:50.

We will focus on teacher quality and rebuild local oversight and

:35:51.:35:53.

accountability. Thank you very much for coming in. To discuss the events

:35:54.:35:57.

of the day, not just Michael Gove's departure is my guest, a columnist

:35:58.:36:03.

for the Times and the Guardian are both here. Thank you for coming in.

:36:04.:36:08.

You made it your stock and trade to know what is really going on in the

:36:09.:36:11.

Conservative minds. What really happened with Michael Gove, was he

:36:12.:36:15.

shoved out uncermoniously, he's going around saying he's pleased

:36:16.:36:19.

with his new job, are we to believe him? He didn't want to go and leave

:36:20.:36:23.

this position. But the Conservative Party has admired what Michael Gove

:36:24.:36:27.

has tried to do. He has been perhaps one of the great education reformers

:36:28.:36:32.

of the in the post-war years. He has tried to tackle the fact that the

:36:33.:36:37.

British taxpayer puts more and more money into education and hasn't been

:36:38.:36:40.

keeping one the rest of the world. His reforms matter. Sometimes the

:36:41.:36:45.

person building the house or invents the product is not the best person

:36:46.:36:49.

to sell that product. And Linton Crosby, the Australian adviser to

:36:50.:36:52.

the Prime Minister saw the opinion polls and this was not a popular

:36:53.:36:55.

Education Secretary. If you are going to win an election you can't

:36:56.:36:59.

have an Education Secretary that seems to be antagonising, not just

:37:00.:37:05.

teachers but parents as well. The mums in particular, the women who

:37:06.:37:12.

haven't always supported the Conservative Party. And Nicky Morgan

:37:13.:37:17.

is the David Cameron choice not to unwind the Michael Gove reforms but

:37:18.:37:21.

to sell them. Does Nicky Morgan believe in the reform, some unkindly

:37:22.:37:26.

have suggested she doesn't believe in very much, smart, efficient and

:37:27.:37:29.

pragmatic, can you tell us what she believes in? I think she's someone

:37:30.:37:34.

who on the gay marriage issue she took a different position, she

:37:35.:37:38.

opposed it and stood up to David Cameron, she wasn't just someone who

:37:39.:37:41.

agrees with what the Prime Minister wants. She as an independent

:37:42.:37:46.

thinker, but crucially will Gove's reforms survive? Look at the junior

:37:47.:37:53.

ministers, Nick Gibb and others they are people who believe in reforms,

:37:54.:37:56.

there is no great retreat. Polly what do you make of it? Jo I think

:37:57.:38:06.

it is worth pausing for a moment for observers and commentators to think

:38:07.:38:09.

how hellish political life is. You get to the top of the tree and get

:38:10.:38:13.

stuck into something you care about passionately and suddenly you are

:38:14.:38:16.

yanked out and gone forever. It happened to Andrew Lansley. It is a

:38:17.:38:21.

better business. Is this you showing sympathy for Michael Gove? Yes, I

:38:22.:38:26.

feel sympathy for politicians, I think sometimes as comment it aors

:38:27.:38:30.

-- commentators, we say what we think about them, they come and go.

:38:31.:38:36.

It is a rough, rough trade, in that sense I feel sorry for him. He said

:38:37.:38:41.

it was a great wrench. On the other hand I think, as Tim was suggesting

:38:42.:38:45.

i think he really had to go. Here is man who will pick a fight with

:38:46.:38:51.

himself if you put him in an empty room. Partly because he was a

:38:52.:38:57.

commentator at one time. Part of his job is to debate. He sees everything

:38:58.:39:04.

in ideolgical terms, whatever the debate he is on one side and you are

:39:05.:39:08.

on the other. He doesn't bring anyone along with him. What else

:39:09.:39:12.

does the reshuffle bring, do you think this will fundamentally

:39:13.:39:15.

reshape what the Government looks like and what the Conservative looks

:39:16.:39:19.

like in the public mind or not really? Not radically, I think there

:39:20.:39:22.

is two things that matter, the Conservative Party has moved in a

:39:23.:39:25.

euro-sceptic direction, we have a Foreign Secretary who is prepared to

:39:26.:39:29.

countenance leaving the European Union. That is new. This is another

:39:30.:39:32.

ratchet to the Conservative Party moving in that way. The euro-sceptic

:39:33.:39:37.

move is huge, if you think who we have lost, we have lost the

:39:38.:39:42.

moderate, sensible wise heads, we have lost Keneth Clarke, Dominic

:39:43.:39:47.

Grieve, Damien Green, the people who understand why Europe works and why

:39:48.:39:50.

it matters to us. Instead we have a lot of much more abrasive, young

:39:51.:39:55.

people who have been chosen by Conservative Parties who are deeply

:39:56.:39:59.

euro-sceptic. This is a real shift towards Euro-scepticism. It may be

:40:00.:40:05.

euro-sceptic for the Guardian but not the population. The Conservative

:40:06.:40:08.

Party is in touch more with the public than it has ever been. I

:40:09.:40:12.

don't think so, because when people are asked what they care about

:40:13.:40:15.

Europe is right down the list? But they care about immigration and

:40:16.:40:20.

issues that can only be solved. David Cameron was right saying we

:40:21.:40:25.

mustn't bang on about it, we are in danger of having both sides banging

:40:26.:40:29.

on. You said there was one other thing we should take note of?

:40:30.:40:34.

Everyone is looking at the coming together from women in the party,

:40:35.:40:39.

but it is Tories from a more modest background, it is the son of a

:40:40.:40:43.

milkman, or the son of a single mother. That is the big problem, not

:40:44.:40:46.

the gender problem, it is the sense that the Tories are the party of the

:40:47.:40:54.

rich. It is only two more women and 2011 figures, it looks pretty much

:40:55.:40:58.

the same, I doubt if it will make a huge amount of presentation or

:40:59.:41:07.

difference. Poetry or paintings, the work of war artists can bring light

:41:08.:41:12.

to the gloryies and horrors of war. When the grand exhibition halls of

:41:13.:41:17.

the imperial war museum open in a couple of days after a major

:41:18.:41:21.

renovation, with the stories of the first and Second World Wars, we will

:41:22.:41:32.

be joined by a new tail, the British artist documenting the life of the

:41:33.:41:35.

modern military. As an artist I work at the

:41:36.:41:40.

intersection of art and documentary, engaging with working communities

:41:41.:41:45.

facing difficult circumstances. I'm interested in exploring the social

:41:46.:41:48.

function of art and asking one central question. How can films and

:41:49.:41:53.

photographs impact upon the real world? In 2010 I was awarded a

:41:54.:42:06.

two-month commission to work as a war artist in Helmand, Afghanistan.

:42:07.:42:12.

It was commissioned by imperial war museum, and First Sight an arts

:42:13.:42:17.

organisation. I was hosted by 16 air afault brigade, the largest in the

:42:18.:42:21.

British Army, otherwise known as the Paras. It had never really occurred

:42:22.:42:27.

to me to take work in the warzone before. It was inexperience that

:42:28.:42:30.

changed my life in a very profound way. When the invitation to go to

:42:31.:42:38.

Afghanistan came, it suddenly seemed relevant to my life and my

:42:39.:42:42.

grandfather's life, I became very curious. My grandfather was captain

:42:43.:42:47.

of a ship during World War II. He came back from four years at sea

:42:48.:42:55.

suffering from what I now recognise as PTSD. After the war he took a lot

:42:56.:43:00.

of amateur photographs, his perspective on life seemed to be

:43:01.:43:05.

about lens. When I decided to make the commission, I wanted to move

:43:06.:43:09.

away from the conventions of ne coverage that made us immune to feel

:43:10.:43:14.

anything new about what is happening in Afghanistan.

:43:15.:43:18.

In preparation to go to Helmand I attended a three-day course, a death

:43:19.:43:25.

by power point, which retrospectively left me cold

:43:26.:43:29.

thinking about living in a warzone. It became apparent, unlike previous

:43:30.:43:34.

projects that allowed me an extraordinary collaboration with

:43:35.:43:37.

local communities, it would not be possible in Helmand. The work talks

:43:38.:43:44.

about this unspanable gulf. My desire to make work that gave the

:43:45.:43:48.

locals a voice was frustrated on every level. This piece, Bolan

:43:49.:43:54.

Market was filmed in an area previously part of Taliban-occupied

:43:55.:43:59.

territory. It began to flourish under ISIS force, but there is a

:44:00.:44:03.

complex relationship between the local population and the British

:44:04.:44:07.

soldiers. I asked if I could get out of the tank and film. We were told

:44:08.:44:10.

by the command I would be killed orchid napped within 20 minutes.

:44:11.:44:13.

Whilst some of the locals are apparently untroubled by our

:44:14.:44:20.

prosession, others are obviously feeling disturbed or angered by the

:44:21.:44:24.

presence of the camera or tank. Which for some might be seeing a

:44:25.:44:28.

spaceship land in Corby. I left the film mute in an attempt to

:44:29.:44:33.

communicate the feel Iing had about being trapped in silent nightmare.

:44:34.:44:56.

Before I left for Afghanistan I made backdrops for my work, based upon

:44:57.:45:04.

images from previous conflicts. I chose paintings and photographs that

:45:05.:45:08.

have a strong resonance or emotional charge, and make a blunt telescopic

:45:09.:45:12.

connection between the past and what is happening today. How many times

:45:13.:45:16.

have the Brits gone to war in Afghanistan, and has it ever worked

:45:17.:45:23.

out well, for anyone In Helmand the patrols would last two or three

:45:24.:45:27.

hours and often frightening, I was shot at. On one occasion there was a

:45:28.:45:33.

massive explosion after two soldiers stepped on an improvised explosive

:45:34.:45:39.

device, one lost his legs and the other blinded. During my time in

:45:40.:45:43.

Helmand the soldiers were closing limbs every day, but these injuries

:45:44.:45:49.

go largely unreported. The experience was profoundly affecting.

:45:50.:45:53.

At first when I returned to the UK I felt invincible, everything to do

:45:54.:45:57.

with life here seemed banal and meaningless, e-mails, supermarkets,

:45:58.:46:02.

paying bills. I felt I no longer had any re connection to who I was

:46:03.:46:08.

before I went to hell moneyed, and I have had -- Helmand, and I have had

:46:09.:46:13.

to remain embedded and carry the work alone until the public dissell

:46:14.:46:18.

nation three years later. I think validation of one's work, be it as

:46:19.:46:25.

an artist or photo correspondent is healthy for readjustment to healthy

:46:26.:46:30.

civilian life. I wish on reflection I hadn't gone to Helmand, sending an

:46:31.:46:36.

artist is a compolitician and moral responsibility. Making people work

:46:37.:46:39.

under those conditions is life-changing. It is removed from

:46:40.:46:43.

the pristine experience of viewing art in a museum, or the academic

:46:44.:46:49.

experience of curating an exhibition. Aside from the military,

:46:50.:46:52.

so few of us know what it really means to be involved in a tour of

:46:53.:46:59.

duty. I was niave in my imagining of it and so were those who sent me.

:47:00.:47:06.

That's it for tonight, we leave you with the German World Cup team as

:47:07.:47:10.

they brought that trophy back to Berlin today to an incredible

:47:11.:47:14.

reception. They are probably still singing now at the Brandenburg

:47:15.:47:22.

Gates, they were found chant ago few English fans favourites, what is the

:47:23.:47:27.

opposite of schadenfreude?! Good night.

:47:28.:47:37.

# It's coming home, it's coming home # It's coming,

:47:38.:47:44.

# Football's coming home # It's coming home

:47:45.:47:49.

# Football's coming home # It's coming home

:47:50.:47:56.

# Football's coming home # It's coming home, it's coming home

:47:57.:48:03.

# It's coming football's coming home.

:48:04.:48:08.

# Three lions on a shirt # Jewels

:48:09.:48:14.

#30 years of hurt Early risers in Northern Ireland

:48:15.:48:26.

some

:48:27.:48:27.

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