14/07/2014 Newsnight


The cabinet is purged - why? The Archbishop of Canterbury live, women bishops, teen suicides in police cells, Ed Sheeran, and tax avoiders hear their fate. With Emily Maitlis.

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secretary, William Hague, announces he is to step down, who will take


his place, as David Cameron reshuffles the rest of his cabinet,


ten men lose their jobs. Is this a new era at Westminster. Our


political editor is here to answer that. And this: The motion has been


carried in all three houses. The Church of England finally votes to


allow women to become bishop, what has changed? We will talk live to


the Archbishop of Canterbury. And how did middle-class white boy


Ed Sheeran get named the most important man in black and urban


music, his collaborator is here to explain.


Good evening, it was not a good night to be man in cabinet, it was


not a good night to be middle-aged in cabinet. The prime ministerial


Prime Minister's purge was deep and interesting. The man removing


himself from office, the Foreign Secretary, William Hague, will be


stepping down with immediate effect, but staying on as Leader of the


House, and helping to one run the election campaign. Ten men of


cabinet level or just below have been fired, making way, you have to


assume for more women, or possibly for politicians with different


leanings. Our political editor is here to make some sense of this.


What do you make into this? This is the team David Cameron wants to go


into the next election with. These are the people that will be on sets


likes ours. What tomorrow will announce is many, many more women,


think about Francois Holland, he's Government, and David Cameron said a


third of the Government would be women. And one of the women brought


in was born in 1972, a massive theme of youth over necessarily


experience. And aside from gender, what other themes do you think in


terms of their political leanings? I think gender and youth will actually


mask quite a lot of mosaic shuffling on ideology. We understand this


evening that there is a lot of unhappiness on the right of the


party over what we understand is the departure of Owen Patterson, the


Environment Secretary, people at the very highest levels of the party


feel with his departure the right isn't adequately enough looked


after. That said, we also understand the Attorney General is depart, he


was seen to be a massive protector of the ECHR, the Tories have always


wanted to move on that as a way of showing they would be hard on


Europe. So it is a difficult picture to read. But there is unhappiness


across quite a vast swathe of the party. One name that doesn't fit any


part of the party, Bob Purslow. It is thought that the head of the home


Civil Service, Bob Curslow, a mature gentleman who is off. This is


because of massive rows with politicians about his eagerness to


reform the Civil Service. We did something last week that showed the


unhappiness, the fractiousness between the two sides, he's now off.


Thought not to have performed well enough across Government. The


biggest news possibly today is William Hague's departure. He will


stay in Government, he will stay as leader, but he won't be Foreign


Secretary. He will leave parliament next year. For lovers of his book,


they won't mind, I'm sure he will write many more books. It is all


right for some of you, half of you won't be here in 30 or 40 years


time. And now in a reshuffle some 40 years on William Hague is also off.


He's leaving the Foreign Office tonight and parliament next year.


First becoming an MP in 1989 he rose to John Major's cabinet and by 1997


was leader himself. Much derided for turning up at the Notting Hill


Carnival, it was actually an early attempt at Tory modernisation that


didn't work. Hardline on Europe and immigration, his offer fell on deaf


ears and he resigned as story leader after the 2001 election. I have


decided to step down as leader of the Conservative Party. He went on


to write political biographies, enormously successful. His


reappearance lent the new Tory leader credibility. In the decade


since, along with George Osborne, he has been a steady part of the big


three on the top of the Tory Party. As Foreign Secretary, insiders say


William Hague's attitude towards Europe softened as the rest of his


party's attitude hardened. With three possible years of


renegotiation with Europe, the Foreign Secretary may not have been


his cup of tea. The ayes to the right 272, the nos to the left 285.


Parliament's rejection of military action in Syria last September is


said to have rocked him, blindsiding the whole of the Prime Minister's


foreign policy team. Now William Hague ditches warzones around the


world for the general election battleground. He remains the deputy


to the next election, and on to the hostile environment if you are a


Tory, the north of England. Soon William Hague will leave parliament,


probably for a life penning paperback, he has been working on a


history of foreign secretaries, and now has another chapter to write.


I'm joined by my guests now. Danny Finklestein. Danny this probably


didn't come as a surprise to you, I'm guessing, you have worked very


closely, what was in his mind? In the period between being leader of


the Conservative Party and coming back as shadow Foreign Secretary, he


really enjoyed himself doing things like amazing to his friends,


learning to play the piano, and writing his political biographies.


He was quite reluctant as returning, he saw it as his duty and also he


was unfulfilled because he hadn't had the senior office. They really


didn't want him to go. But he was insistent on it. I think it is just


about having a life. It is as simple as that. He has reached 53 years


old, and he wants to do other things with his life. He's not really going


to have a life, he will still be Leader of the House, and still going


to be part of the campaign? So you know for a year and then he will go


off and you know and leave parliament and then he will begin


with the various things that he was doing. I'm sure a book will be part


of it. I don't know what his expect plans are, I think the most


important thing for a Foreign Secretary, he was going around the


world, he didn't spend much time in the country. He didn't see his


friends, his family, you know it was a period that was quite hard, his


mother died, for example, I think he probably just wants a bit more of a


life. And he has done the big things. He is not going to be Prime


Minister, I think he thinks. He has been Foreign Secretary, it is time


to do something else. There was speculation it might be Theresa May


going into that role or a woman, we have just had it confirmed it is


Philip Hammond. What should we read into who is coming in? I think we


are expecting to see more women being promoted, but you can't move a


woman from a very low rank in the Government all wait to Foreign


Secretary. It is one of the great offices of state. So you need one


with a great deal of experience and Philip Hammond does answer that. He


is a trouble shooter, I guess. In terms of Hague's tenure as Foreign


Secretary, do we think of it as a success? Has he made a good fist of


it? I don't think there is a huge Hague legacy as Foreign Secretary.


He did a lot of good for him. He shook off the image you saw there as


a 16-year-old nerd and the baseball hat at Nottingham carnival, and did


become statesman-like in his own persona. I don't think people can


point to a Hague doctrine or huge achievement as Foreign Secretary. He


had a great vision of Britain as the great trading nation and there is


some controversy over it, with British embassies around the world


having receptions for the Queen's birthday being sponsored, but the


planes flying off filled with businessmen. That was the vision and


then it was really knocked off by the Arab Spring and the war in


Libya. He got into trouble with that, we remember the whole


situation with Libya where he didn't manage to rescue the


I think he had in. There was a chaotic start. That was then


overcome by events and chaotic start. That was then


appearance any way of military success. But behind the scenes I'm


told with Michael Gove, he was very gung ho for that, and really


self-avowed neo-Conservative, William Hague had much more adopted


the different view of the world. It was Michael Gove in the inner


councils more than William Hague, and people have gone saying for the


last few months he had checked out and gone native in the Foreign


Office. He's not an idea lowing, d idealogue, he has grassroots link,


which David Cameron will miss. But he will have it for the next nine


months, he will miss it afterwards. He's not an idealogue, there is a


strong streak of pragmatisim about him. Philip Hammond's appointment,


if that is who becomes Foreign Secretary is interesting. He is, I


think, more euro-sceptic th William Hague, possibly less reliably an


ally of the Chancellor and the Prime Minister. He's more his own person


than William Hague who was much part of the team. So he's less reliable


how he will come out. It is an interesting I think introduction to


any negotiations that take place in Europe if they win. He comes from


harder line. We will see right and left coming in here, what do you


think, Allegra was mentioning the European Court of Human Rights, if


you look at the swathe of men all going out they were all advocates?


Yes, and I suppose moving William Hague, there was a suspicion he had


gone native at the Foreign Office and I bumped into a senior


euro-sceptic earlier in parliament when rumours that Owen Patterson had


been sacked for circulating. He was furious saying we don't have one of


us in the higher ranks of Government any more. Who is that? Someone in a


euro-sceptics' point of view who hasn't gone native or taking the


Whitehall mandarin line on Europe. If you listen to William Hague's


speeches on Europe at the Conservative Party Conferences he


was no long ermine mallist, he talked about using Europe to tackle


climate change, which a lot of politicians may agree but


euro-sceptic didn't. He was elected leader in 1997 as the euro-sceptic


candidate, part of Europe but not run by Europe, but in the end he's


seen as the Foreign Office man and not euro-sceptic enough. It is not


quite enough, that last sentence is correct. There is a move among


euro-sceptics, there are more euro-sceptics in favour of leaving.


And William Hague's position has never been that. He has been in


favour of being in Europe but not run by Europe. That red meat


position was not enough for the Tory Party today. This awful phrase,


"pale, steal, male", there is the whole catalogue of the middle-aged


man leaving? It is generational. Look at the people who left. They


were worried that David Cameron was stepping over them to be leader.


Many supported David Davis, for generational leaders, for the reason


this reshuffle would happen one day. At the end of the parliament when


you haven't reshuffled and you have a five-year parliament, people will


think what will I do with the next five years. David Willett has


decided if he doesn't want to be an MP for the next five years I can't


stay in the reshuffle, he has gone of his on volition. That has


happened to a few people. But it is generational as well as anything


else. Are the young and female there, I don't know why I'm asking


you, that is unfair, I happened to catch your eye? There are impressive


female Tory MPs, Cameron is lucky, he knows he has to promote women,


and he can look to the backbenches and see good prospects. The good


news about people he could be promoting, such as Priti Patel, they


are not just good women but robust euro-sceptics. If they are looking


for someone to satisfy the euro-sceptics you have those on the


backbenches as well. That is the interesting, you will get hardcore


Thatcherites and euro-sceptics. Mr Fox is coming back? It will please


those about Owen Patterson? Not all of them, some are unhappy about him


coming back. It is a taint and he left under a big cloud and that is a


Di Canio of worms. I was talking about diversity, it is not just


about gender, Sajid Javid and Priti Patel. This is good for a


Conservative Party want to go stay in tough with Britain. The left will


say it is window dressing. Will the voter notice? Most people don't know


who the people are, they don't therefore care whether they move


from one position to another. I think it does matter of course the


balance of women and men for example that matters. And generational


matters. But the most important thing is where will it leave the


Government, therefore you have to analyse Philip Hammond's promotion


in substantive terms, what difference will it actually make to


policy. I think there definitely will be a shift from William Hague.


If you mention the European Court of Human Rights, you have people who


would have been custodians and protectors of that Keneth Clarke,


Damien Greening, they are now out, you wonder if that is preparing a


manifesto promise to scrap Britain's involvement in the European


convention and scrap the Human Rights Act and bring something else


in its place. Thank you very much for coming in.


4. 29pm, history was made, the three houses of the Anglican bishops,


Clergy and Laity, all vote today allow women to become bishops, a


perfect Church of England moment. A radical ground-breaking move greeted


by the synod in the halls a gentle clap befitting of a Sunday afternoon


cricket team. It is not the first time it was put to the vote but the


first time it was one. The big question, what has changed within


the church, its leadership and society. What happens to those who


fundamentally disagree with such a month. We speak live to the


Archbishop of Canterbury in a moment. On my first Sunday service


in the parish, which is a parish with a tradition of saying "father"


i toad in front of them in -- I stood in front of them in my robes


and I said it is clearly obvious I'm not father. For Reverend Rose, the


decision on bishops has been far too long in the making. It is 22 years


since women were allowed to become priests. Back then Reverend Rose was


there campaigning. I went to one of these sign-maker places and got them


to make the sign up for me. When they asked me what are you putting


on it I wrote there and then, "women beautifully and wonderfully made in


the image of God". Today they were made equal in the Church of England


too. Cheers everybody. Women will be welcomed into the top ranks. And the


momentous vote got the bishops up for a boogie.


# We are dancing in the light of God # We are dancing in the light of God


I'm not sure whether it is John servicing the alarm... Far away from


the General Synod, one of the favourites to become the first


female bishop was busy getting on with the mundaneties of life as a


parish priest. What else have you put in? Loo, I'm


really excited. You have to see the loos. I will be known as the vicar


who put in first class loos claim! We spent the day with a vicar who


knows what matters? I'm exceptionally proud of the toilets


that we have put in, exceptionally proud. Nice. Would a male priest


have thought about putting in the loos? Ha ha. I will be upset because


I don't think it is the way that the church should move, I think that it


disadvantages us in so many ways. As the synod debated an issue that has


divided Anglicans for decades, we invited an opponent of the


ordination of women to meet Rose and a parishioner. You don't support the


women bishops? No. You think as a woman I can come to you as a bishop


and you could help me more than a woman could? Not at all. Because I


think at the heart of being a bishop isn't all of the day-to-day things


that people do, it is about being that focus for unity. You were


talking about women in ministry, I want to see women in ministry, I


don't think you have to put a collar around your neck to put a woman in


ministry. You see yourselves asset apart in this holy order that nobody


else in particular, a woman, can ever be a part of because of our


gender. I don't think that I'm set apart in a way that makes me better


than anybody else in the church. I think that I have a particular role


in the church, which is to celebrate the sacraments as a priest, I don't


think that is any more or less important than somebody being the


chair of a charity in the church, or chair of the PCC or


chair of a charity in the church, or why have we decided that the priest


is the why have we decided that the priest


anyone else. Well I certainly don't think so, but what I certainly


believe is that I also have been called to celebrate the sacrament,


and because of my gender, for such a long time, the church caught up with


the tradition and th cultural practices have actually said women


can't and we bought into that for such a long time. I have to say you


are not at a disadvantage if you are not ordained, I don't believe that


because I have a collar around my neck I'm more important than other


people in the church, than lay people. But you are perceived as


more important and as the most important in this church? That is


why I think the focus should have been correcting the clericalism of


the church. As her colleagues prepared to take the historic vote,


we accompanied Reverend Rose to her other job. She's Speaker's Chaplain


in the House of Commons, it is a role that comes with its own


dresser. I certainly have no ambition or desire to be a bishop.


My greatest ambition was actually to meet Desmond Tutu and Nelson


Mandela, I have achieved my ambition in the church. I have had my great


experience, Lord, now let that servant depart in peace! The motion


has been carried in all three houses. Today's vote means someone,


if not Reverend Rose will be first, England could get a female bishop by


the end of the year. I feel like singing the song that they sang when


Barack Obama was "change gonna come... It has been a long time


coming. I think this is a moment for the church to look at and say now


let's get on with it. Let's get on with it. Joining us now from York


the Archbishop of Canterbury, Justin Welsby. Thank you very much indeed


for joining us this evening. What do you think changed to allow the vote


to go through? I think quite a lot of things changed. There was a real


sense of gentleness and grace in the way it worked over the last few


months. There has been much more listening to each other, much more


conversation. Much more graciousness, much more willingness


to treat each other in a human way. That's been a major cultural change


in the way the church has worked. Do you think this will be


transformative to the church as a whole? Yes, I do. I think it will be


transformative, I think there is two particular aspects to that. I'm


delighted personally that we are going to ordain women as bishops.


That is something I have been looking forward to very, very much.


And it is hugely exciting. But at the same time I'm aware that there


are a lot of people who will be struggling with this. And I think


you have one of them on your programme a few moments ago. The two


changes, one we have made the decision to do it, but the second is


that the way we're going to do it is to hold everyone together. To treat


people as family not as party groups in which you chuck out the people


you disagree with. It is the opposite. To enable, we're committed


to enabling everyone to flourish, that is really important. Let me ask


you, when you were putting forward the arguments, you said the general


public would find it incomprehensible that we can't have


women bishops. It is interesting you talk about the general public. I'm


wondering if you think that the church is influenced by societal


norms then. If society changes the church must? That is two questions.


It is a very good question. I think to some degree all churches are


always influenced by the culture in which they live. Because everyone


who comes to the church is part of that culture. But it was very


interesting to me today, listening to the very long debate, that it was


essentially about theology, more than about culture. That argument


was not one that came forward very strongly, it was a question of what


is right before God in obedience to yes suss Christ -- obedience to


Jesus Christ, loving one each other and the society we live. Of course


we are influenced by society, but it was a theologically-based decision.


If you use some of those phrases "loving one another" and "loving the


society in which we live", we know it has taken 25 years to get to


women priests. Will it be OK for a gay bishop to engage in a regular


active sex life in 25 years or sooner, using those same arguments


you just put forward? Today has been about the ordination of women to the


Church of England. We are starting conversations which are going to be


guided conversations over the issues of sexuality and I'm really not


going to get into that, because it would be pre-empting the decisions.


But it feels like you would support that on a personal level, would you?


As I say I'm not going to get into it. I think we have a long way to go


as part of the guided conversations and no predetermined outcome and I'm


just quietly delighting in what's happened today in the affirmation of


women across the country and the Church of England and in the fact


that the church has come together so well. I think a lot of people will


have sympathy with your position on this, which you said was you know


confused in its own way. When you are guiding those conversations how


are you guiding them. I think you once said the church has not been


good at dealing with homophobia, we have empolice Italy and even


supported homophobia that demands repentance. Are we to read n I


understand -- empolice Italy and even supported homophobia. Is today


about modernising the church, where are you guiding those conversations


and I understand today is about women bishops? The conversations are


guided, I'm glad to say, not by me, but by the House of bishops and all


those in the church. It is something where we are learning to treat each


other better than we did. You ask the change, the biggest change in


the last 20 months has been the way we treat each other, and the way we


are learning to treat people we disagree with. As we go forward with


the discussion on sexuality, it is that quality of discussion of love


and affection for one another that will be absolutely crucial. Of


course it is difficult, life is difficult, there is no point in


pretending otherwise, there is disagreements. It is wonderful when


you get to an evening like this and there is a decision being taken and


you can delight not just in the decision, but in the fact that it


has been done well and then face the challenge as we go forward of other


decisions, discussions we have to have. But also the huge challenge of


delivering what we have promised this evening. And above all of


delivering the church in its ministry in the world. The bishops


are deeply deeply committed to that. When people look to the church for


leadership, on the other issues that surround them, for example not gay


Clergy but gay marriage, is that somewhere that you feel you are


arriving at too? That you could see gay marriages being a positive way


to live life? Well, as I have said, a couple of times so fashion and we


can go round and round that circle, this evening is really about what's


been going on today and I don't want to begin to pre-empt those


discussions. Lord Carey said this weekend on the question of right to


die and assisted dying that he thought we were in danger of putting


doctrine before compassion, and I wonder if you feel that sometimes,


again going back to what society is looking for in the norms, whether


the church feels held back by those dogmas and doctrines when you


yourself have said it is agonising to watch in pain die? It is actually


Lord Carey is entitled to speak. It is a major debate going on. He has


helped turn that into a much higher profile debate and that is a very,


very good thing. Because this is a hugely important question for many


of us. And like myself in my own personal experience, as well as my


experience as a priest, like loads of friends, we have all got, you


have probably got, that we have all had this experience of dealing with


people who are, who have the most severe illness and near the end of


their life. This isn't a question of doctrine, it is a question of


compassion. Lord Carey said it was compassion for the particular person


dying, all our Pastoral experience and all the church's Pastoral


experience of compassion for people in terrible circumstances is that


there is such a risk, such a huge risk of mistreatment, of


manipulation, that we are very, very cautious about approaches to


assisted dying. It has to be a proper debate. We have to work


through the evidence and the issues, but as I wrote over the weekend in


one paper, that this is not a difference between one group of


people with a hardline of doctrine and another group of people who are


saying we have to be compassionate. It is actually saying how we are


compassionate and for what it is worth I think that the way he has


described compassion is written far too narrowly and with a lack of


appreciation for the risk and dangers to people who would be put


under pressure if the law changed. That's why we are so against it. You


think it would lead to a lot of people dying before they needed to?


I think what it leads to is manipulation. I was a parish priest,


a curate and a parish priest for ten years and was taking 70 funerals a


year average at least. There were some where the families were


wonderful and marvellous and others which were pretty grim and others


where you were conscious that there was a level of difficulty going on


if someone is very ill and they are often going to be depressed, they


are often going to be in pain. And they say to their family I'm sure


I'm a bit of a burden. You can say of course not, we love you, we value


you, we want to care for you, or you can say well we can manage and you


can do it in such a way that it creates a sense that the person


really feels that the right thing to do is to seek to die. I'm afraid it


is a harsh reality, not everyone is nice, not every family is


compassionate. And people struggling with terminal illness, with very


painful illness with the appalling cases. We have seen and heard about


that recently that we have all had to deal with as priest, and often in


our own families. I was talking to a bishop the other day who was saying


it would have put him under so much pressure. It is very good indeed to


talk to you, thank you very much indeed.


The Government has talked a big game on tackling tax avoidance in recent


years, putting more money into tax inspectors and making big rule


changes. Tomorrow is a big development. We are here to explain.


Chris tell us what is happening? It is good to see where women are


firing out their biggest antitax weapon. They will list a thousand


tax avoidance schemes which tens of thousands of members, and those


members will be subject to a new thing called the accelerated payment


notice. It used to be a case of what HMRC thought was a dodgy tax


arrangement, they could take it to court and get the tax back. Under


the new process, the accelerated payment process, what happens is


they say you are in a dodgy tax scheme what will happen is you will


pay us the money and then you can take us to court to get the


difference back. So what it does is makes investing in what might be a


slightly shady tax avoidance scheme a much nastier proposition. I guess


the sort of big political question on all of this is how it will play


out. To the extend to which this is a measure that hits very rich famous


people possibly, people who don't like comedians we don't think are


funny. Nobody will mind. The problem will be when you get tens of


thousands of people in your net, you will get some innocent people in


there, there are people who have been mis-sold investments in what


are effectively tax avoidance products, not really clocking what


they were. We came across one in a Newsnight investigation, where


people who were hopelessly inadequate to take on the risk we


were taking were taking them on. The real challenge for HMRC is how it


affects people who shouldn't have been doing it for lots of reasons


while making sure it gets money back and it is fair from the richest. We


will know more tomorrow. You will. The mother of a vulnerable teenager,


who took her own life, after she was arrested, has told this programme


her daughter may still be alive if the law had been changed. . As


things stand 17-year-olds can be held in police cells overnight as


adults, despite a High Court ruling saying they should be given the same


rights as children. The families of three teenagers who died shortly


after leaving custody have written to the Home Secretary today


criticising what they say are the false promises made after the


judgment last year. Some of this report may be upsetting. She was


talented confident and loving, that was the main thing. She was


fun-loving, adventurous, outgoing, beautiful, I just miss her so much.


Six months ago Martina's daughter took her own life. She had suffered


from depression since the age of 12. Missing lessons, spending time in


hospital. She was extremely vulnerable as a 17-year-old. She had


a history of self-harm, she had a history of depression, she actually


spent some time in hospital with mental health issues. So in terms of


vulnerability she was an incredibly vulnerable young girl. On a Saturday


afternoon before Christmas, she was arrested at a flat with a small


amount of cannabis. She was brought to the police station in Ashton, one


of the largest in Manchester. If she had been 16 years old she would have


been interviewed here and then sent to a secure children's home, or


another form of local authority care. Instead, as a 17-year-old she


was treated as an adult, and held in a police cell for three days and two


nights, waiting for her court appearance. That, say campaigners,


was a clear breach of human rights law, which should treat all


under-18s as children. The difference between a police cell and


local authority secure accommodation is huge, there are trained staff in


local authority places, social workers, people who can care for the


welfare of a vulnerable person who would take that person to court and


look after their well being. The job of the police is really to detain


and prevent phoning. Those children do need that protection. Exactly


what happened in that cell we do not know. Greater Manchester Police say


they can't comment while an investigation is on going. But as


with other forces they are not currently allowed to transfer


17-year-olds to local authority care. After a weekend locked up she


was taken to court and bailed, her parents say they were not told she


had been released. A day later she was found dead. Hanged in a friend's


back garden. I don't think she would have coped with it. I don't think


she would have coped and that's why we have come to the outcome that we


have come to today. I think she would have been distraught. I think


that the head banging and the hair pulling would have been the only way


she thought she could deal with it. She should have got help while she


was in the police station. She shouldn't have been released without


contacting anybody. And the whole thing is a total disgrace. It is


wrong. It is wrong. It is just destroyed us. It has destroyed me as


a mother and the whole family. Totally devastated by the loss of


Kesia. It is a total shock, even though we knew she had problems. It


is just, I mean you can't describe the pain and the heartbreak that we


felt and that we're still feeling. the pain and the heartbreak that we


There are no words. Kesia is one of a number of 17-year-olds, all from


Manchester to die recently in very similar circumstances. In 2011


former head boy Eddie Thornbur killed himself after being caught


with 50p worth of Dan business. A year later Joe shot himself on the


family firm, two nights earlier he was held overnight for


drink-driving. The families of both boys were at the High Court last


year when the judge ruled the Government was breaking the law by


treating them as adults, as a result the Home Office did make some


limited changes. Parents are now informed if a 17-year-old is


detained by the police. But crucially, wider reform, including


rules on when a cell should be used were put off until an internal


review can be completed. That still hasn't happened. Today the families


of all three teenagers sent a letter to Theresa May demanding she finish


the work she started. They paid lip service to the court. They did


absolutely the bare minimum, which to me is not right. You can't


understand really why they wouldn't change t you are talking about our


17-year-old children. You know, it is this sort of element of well when


we're ready. Well it is already going to be too late for three


children. The Home Office said this evening it will carefully consider


the letter, and respond in due course. Three teenagers are dead,


nothing can bring them back, but for the families involved this is still


a fight very much worth having. He is white with red hair, crudely


put, but today the singer Ed Sheeran was named the most important act in


black and urban music but the power list calling itself the leading


black music radio station, the list itself in which three of the top


four acts are white has been criticised as the saddest list in


human history by Wily. Has the English music scene gone backwards


or changed in how it sees music and colour.


Let's see where your favourites came in the One Extra Power List.


Rudamental number one, banker's son Sam Smith at four, Tine Tempa at 3


and then Ed Sheeran at three. He's already so big that he has his own


body double. 23-year-old Sheeran from Yorkshire has written for One


Direction and tailor Swift, and collaborating here with Pharrell


here. But not everyone is satisfied that


One Extra has come correct with its poll, take Wiley, he has had this to


say on social media. I have never been influenced by a white artist to


make black music, #never. We have been bumped, not taking anything


away from Ed, he's sick, but black artists in England are getting


bumped. It was very controversial, it is no surprise to me, but always


the case in this country it is white artists who have dominated coming to


black music. It seems to be a more palatable version and more


acceptable version of the music in this country. Let's refresh our


memory about One Extra's mission statement. The remit is to play the


best in contemporary black music with a strong emphasis on live music


and supporting new UK artists. I can't understand how a radio station


promoting black music playing black music and urban music had a list


that didn't resemble the people that largely create that music and


culture. It was a state of confusion. That is not to say that


anybody on the list didn't deserve to be there because of their talent.


But we have to think about how we title the list and what we are


actually trying to promote. 1 Xtra presenter Twin B helped to compile


the station's powerlist. One thing we are not about is race, it is


about supporting music that fits what we do. The DJs have a big part


on what gets played on air. And Ed Sheeran has been championed across


the station from the beginning of his career. Do you need to rebrand


the statement and get away from the idea that it is a contemporary black


station? More people to need to listen to it to understand what we


do and understand the landscape of music as well. There is an award for


you, it is 1 Xtra Powerlist, number one Ed Sheeran So Sheeran is the the


first recipient of the bauble, perhaps they should call it the one


sie. My guest has collaberated with Ed


Sheeran and the chief music critic of the Guardian is with us. We are


not questioning talent. But when you hear the grime artist Wily say --


Wiley say this is the saddest music list in history, can you hear what


he's getting to? I hear it but it is changed and interpreted wrongly. The


list was a power list, they never said a blacklist or urban list. They


said a power list. From my experience Ed was championed by 1


Xtra first, he is influenced by black music. He himself wouldn't say


he's influenced to it, but influenced by it. Which as well as


every other music. Are you happy with him being the number one on the


list of you know most important act in black and urban music, that


sounds crazy doesn't it? It is beyond colour, this is art. And you


can't segregate it like that. He's the one person that I know that can


work with tailor Swift to -- Taylor Swift to Rick Ross, one is white and


one black, and it is beyond that. There is something in that, that we


have transcended the discussion of what colour music is and just gone


with who it is? You would think we would have got past the idea that


something is black and white music, it is an unfortunate list because 1


Xtra brands itself as a black and urban music, and urban is a


euphamism for black. Will it mean anything other? The question is


where is music now, music is without colour really. The popular music we


listen to is blended across hip hop, urban music, club music, dance


music, chart music. Everyone is listening to all this stuff and


blended together. Where does Ed Sheeran sit in that? He siting


across it, his hip hop and rhyming is black, and it does sit across the


genres. If you are a young black artist looking for a niche station


to support young black artists to be told that red is the blue black is


fairly disappointing. Is it about class, when you look at Disclosure


and Sam Smith, the son of a banker, is it not about colour but about...


? Not at all, it is about music, Disclosure, house music, created by


black guy, that is nothing to do with whether it is a white guy


creating it, as long as you pay homage to where it was created and


appreciate the music, I'm happy with polka dot people with stripes doing


it. What about the station, is it about time to stop having a station


that thinks about having about time to stop having a station


that supports it? 1 Xtra supports black artists, me and many others,


and Ed Sheeran did come from that, black artists, me and many others,


the collaborations and EP, and people he has worked with. It is


only the further stuff that has taken him further along, acoustic.


Black artists do struggle, they are underrepresented in popular music in


the major white countries of Britain and America, they need some


infrastructure and support. That is what 1 Xtra was invented for. It is


stuck with the fact that it wants to play music that people are listening


to. If you look at the US Ed Sheeran and Sam Smith are number one and two


in the charts. Iggy Ezelia is a white rapper from Australia, and


generic, it is the Elvis syndrome, if we can find a white artist to do


black music. She mimics an accent? She puts on an American accent, and


she puts on the style that she is a white rapper. That is a big


impetuous in the music industry. I believe the point when I sit down


and say yes there should be a lot more support for black artists in


general. However, I want to kind of, that is a whole other subject we can


talk about for days. We will invite you next time. Thank you for coming


in. That's it for tonight. We leave you with the Nobel Prize winning


author and freedom campaigner Nadine Gordimer whose death was announced.


She talk to Hardtalk programme and asked if she ever wished she had


become a writer away from the backdrop of apartheid, here is her


answer. I think people concentrate on the political aspects. But in my


many books personal relations, which you have got nothing to do with


politics or are influenced them, but they are there. To me writing,


either mine or anyone else's, it is a discovery of life, it is an


attempt to discover what human life is about. And if you live in a


country where there is a lot of conflict, of course that will have a


bearing upon it. But if you are a real writer you can make the death


of a canary striking. We will see thicker cloud and patchy


rain clearing away from the south-east corner, most dry, good


sunny spells. A few isolated showers in Northern Ireland and Scotland,


barely a handful, most avoiding it staying dry, a bit more


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