14/07/2014 Newsnight


14/07/2014

The cabinet is purged - why? The Archbishop of Canterbury live, women bishops, teen suicides in police cells, Ed Sheeran, and tax avoiders hear their fate. With Emily Maitlis.


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secretary, William Hague, announces he is to step down, who will take

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his place, as David Cameron reshuffles the rest of his cabinet,

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ten men lose their jobs. Is this a new era at Westminster. Our

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political editor is here to answer that. And this: The motion has been

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carried in all three houses. The Church of England finally votes to

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allow women to become bishop, what has changed? We will talk live to

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the Archbishop of Canterbury. And how did middle-class white boy

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Ed Sheeran get named the most important man in black and urban

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music, his collaborator is here to explain.

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Good evening, it was not a good night to be man in cabinet, it was

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not a good night to be middle-aged in cabinet. The prime ministerial

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Prime Minister's purge was deep and interesting. The man removing

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himself from office, the Foreign Secretary, William Hague, will be

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stepping down with immediate effect, but staying on as Leader of the

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House, and helping to one run the election campaign. Ten men of

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cabinet level or just below have been fired, making way, you have to

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assume for more women, or possibly for politicians with different

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leanings. Our political editor is here to make some sense of this.

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What do you make into this? This is the team David Cameron wants to go

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into the next election with. These are the people that will be on sets

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likes ours. What tomorrow will announce is many, many more women,

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think about Francois Holland, he's Government, and David Cameron said a

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third of the Government would be women. And one of the women brought

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in was born in 1972, a massive theme of youth over necessarily

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experience. And aside from gender, what other themes do you think in

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terms of their political leanings? I think gender and youth will actually

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mask quite a lot of mosaic shuffling on ideology. We understand this

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evening that there is a lot of unhappiness on the right of the

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party over what we understand is the departure of Owen Patterson, the

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Environment Secretary, people at the very highest levels of the party

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feel with his departure the right isn't adequately enough looked

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after. That said, we also understand the Attorney General is depart, he

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was seen to be a massive protector of the ECHR, the Tories have always

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wanted to move on that as a way of showing they would be hard on

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Europe. So it is a difficult picture to read. But there is unhappiness

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across quite a vast swathe of the party. One name that doesn't fit any

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part of the party, Bob Purslow. It is thought that the head of the home

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Civil Service, Bob Curslow, a mature gentleman who is off. This is

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because of massive rows with politicians about his eagerness to

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reform the Civil Service. We did something last week that showed the

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unhappiness, the fractiousness between the two sides, he's now off.

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Thought not to have performed well enough across Government. The

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biggest news possibly today is William Hague's departure. He will

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stay in Government, he will stay as leader, but he won't be Foreign

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Secretary. He will leave parliament next year. For lovers of his book,

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they won't mind, I'm sure he will write many more books. It is all

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right for some of you, half of you won't be here in 30 or 40 years

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time. And now in a reshuffle some 40 years on William Hague is also off.

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He's leaving the Foreign Office tonight and parliament next year.

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First becoming an MP in 1989 he rose to John Major's cabinet and by 1997

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was leader himself. Much derided for turning up at the Notting Hill

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Carnival, it was actually an early attempt at Tory modernisation that

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didn't work. Hardline on Europe and immigration, his offer fell on deaf

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ears and he resigned as story leader after the 2001 election. I have

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decided to step down as leader of the Conservative Party. He went on

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to write political biographies, enormously successful. His

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reappearance lent the new Tory leader credibility. In the decade

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since, along with George Osborne, he has been a steady part of the big

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three on the top of the Tory Party. As Foreign Secretary, insiders say

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William Hague's attitude towards Europe softened as the rest of his

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party's attitude hardened. With three possible years of

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renegotiation with Europe, the Foreign Secretary may not have been

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his cup of tea. The ayes to the right 272, the nos to the left 285.

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Parliament's rejection of military action in Syria last September is

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said to have rocked him, blindsiding the whole of the Prime Minister's

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foreign policy team. Now William Hague ditches warzones around the

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world for the general election battleground. He remains the deputy

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to the next election, and on to the hostile environment if you are a

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Tory, the north of England. Soon William Hague will leave parliament,

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probably for a life penning paperback, he has been working on a

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history of foreign secretaries, and now has another chapter to write.

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I'm joined by my guests now. Danny Finklestein. Danny this probably

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didn't come as a surprise to you, I'm guessing, you have worked very

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closely, what was in his mind? In the period between being leader of

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the Conservative Party and coming back as shadow Foreign Secretary, he

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really enjoyed himself doing things like amazing to his friends,

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learning to play the piano, and writing his political biographies.

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He was quite reluctant as returning, he saw it as his duty and also he

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was unfulfilled because he hadn't had the senior office. They really

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didn't want him to go. But he was insistent on it. I think it is just

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about having a life. It is as simple as that. He has reached 53 years

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old, and he wants to do other things with his life. He's not really going

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to have a life, he will still be Leader of the House, and still going

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to be part of the campaign? So you know for a year and then he will go

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off and you know and leave parliament and then he will begin

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with the various things that he was doing. I'm sure a book will be part

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of it. I don't know what his expect plans are, I think the most

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important thing for a Foreign Secretary, he was going around the

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world, he didn't spend much time in the country. He didn't see his

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friends, his family, you know it was a period that was quite hard, his

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mother died, for example, I think he probably just wants a bit more of a

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life. And he has done the big things. He is not going to be Prime

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Minister, I think he thinks. He has been Foreign Secretary, it is time

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to do something else. There was speculation it might be Theresa May

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going into that role or a woman, we have just had it confirmed it is

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Philip Hammond. What should we read into who is coming in? I think we

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are expecting to see more women being promoted, but you can't move a

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woman from a very low rank in the Government all wait to Foreign

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Secretary. It is one of the great offices of state. So you need one

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with a great deal of experience and Philip Hammond does answer that. He

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is a trouble shooter, I guess. In terms of Hague's tenure as Foreign

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Secretary, do we think of it as a success? Has he made a good fist of

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it? I don't think there is a huge Hague legacy as Foreign Secretary.

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He did a lot of good for him. He shook off the image you saw there as

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a 16-year-old nerd and the baseball hat at Nottingham carnival, and did

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become statesman-like in his own persona. I don't think people can

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point to a Hague doctrine or huge achievement as Foreign Secretary. He

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had a great vision of Britain as the great trading nation and there is

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some controversy over it, with British embassies around the world

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having receptions for the Queen's birthday being sponsored, but the

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planes flying off filled with businessmen. That was the vision and

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then it was really knocked off by the Arab Spring and the war in

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Libya. He got into trouble with that, we remember the whole

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situation with Libya where he didn't manage to rescue the

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I think he had in. There was a chaotic start. That was then

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overcome by events and chaotic start. That was then

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appearance any way of military success. But behind the scenes I'm

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told with Michael Gove, he was very gung ho for that, and really

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self-avowed neo-Conservative, William Hague had much more adopted

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the different view of the world. It was Michael Gove in the inner

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councils more than William Hague, and people have gone saying for the

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last few months he had checked out and gone native in the Foreign

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Office. He's not an idea lowing, d idealogue, he has grassroots link,

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which David Cameron will miss. But he will have it for the next nine

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months, he will miss it afterwards. He's not an idealogue, there is a

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strong streak of pragmatisim about him. Philip Hammond's appointment,

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if that is who becomes Foreign Secretary is interesting. He is, I

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think, more euro-sceptic th William Hague, possibly less reliably an

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ally of the Chancellor and the Prime Minister. He's more his own person

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than William Hague who was much part of the team. So he's less reliable

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how he will come out. It is an interesting I think introduction to

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any negotiations that take place in Europe if they win. He comes from

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harder line. We will see right and left coming in here, what do you

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think, Allegra was mentioning the European Court of Human Rights, if

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you look at the swathe of men all going out they were all advocates?

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Yes, and I suppose moving William Hague, there was a suspicion he had

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gone native at the Foreign Office and I bumped into a senior

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euro-sceptic earlier in parliament when rumours that Owen Patterson had

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been sacked for circulating. He was furious saying we don't have one of

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us in the higher ranks of Government any more. Who is that? Someone in a

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euro-sceptics' point of view who hasn't gone native or taking the

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Whitehall mandarin line on Europe. If you listen to William Hague's

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speeches on Europe at the Conservative Party Conferences he

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was no long ermine mallist, he talked about using Europe to tackle

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climate change, which a lot of politicians may agree but

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euro-sceptic didn't. He was elected leader in 1997 as the euro-sceptic

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candidate, part of Europe but not run by Europe, but in the end he's

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seen as the Foreign Office man and not euro-sceptic enough. It is not

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quite enough, that last sentence is correct. There is a move among

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euro-sceptics, there are more euro-sceptics in favour of leaving.

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And William Hague's position has never been that. He has been in

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favour of being in Europe but not run by Europe. That red meat

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position was not enough for the Tory Party today. This awful phrase,

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"pale, steal, male", there is the whole catalogue of the middle-aged

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man leaving? It is generational. Look at the people who left. They

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were worried that David Cameron was stepping over them to be leader.

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Many supported David Davis, for generational leaders, for the reason

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this reshuffle would happen one day. At the end of the parliament when

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you haven't reshuffled and you have a five-year parliament, people will

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think what will I do with the next five years. David Willett has

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decided if he doesn't want to be an MP for the next five years I can't

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stay in the reshuffle, he has gone of his on volition. That has

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happened to a few people. But it is generational as well as anything

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else. Are the young and female there, I don't know why I'm asking

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you, that is unfair, I happened to catch your eye? There are impressive

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female Tory MPs, Cameron is lucky, he knows he has to promote women,

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and he can look to the backbenches and see good prospects. The good

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news about people he could be promoting, such as Priti Patel, they

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are not just good women but robust euro-sceptics. If they are looking

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for someone to satisfy the euro-sceptics you have those on the

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backbenches as well. That is the interesting, you will get hardcore

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Thatcherites and euro-sceptics. Mr Fox is coming back? It will please

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those about Owen Patterson? Not all of them, some are unhappy about him

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coming back. It is a taint and he left under a big cloud and that is a

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Di Canio of worms. I was talking about diversity, it is not just

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about gender, Sajid Javid and Priti Patel. This is good for a

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Conservative Party want to go stay in tough with Britain. The left will

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say it is window dressing. Will the voter notice? Most people don't know

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who the people are, they don't therefore care whether they move

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from one position to another. I think it does matter of course the

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balance of women and men for example that matters. And generational

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matters. But the most important thing is where will it leave the

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Government, therefore you have to analyse Philip Hammond's promotion

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in substantive terms, what difference will it actually make to

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policy. I think there definitely will be a shift from William Hague.

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If you mention the European Court of Human Rights, you have people who

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would have been custodians and protectors of that Keneth Clarke,

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Damien Greening, they are now out, you wonder if that is preparing a

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manifesto promise to scrap Britain's involvement in the European

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convention and scrap the Human Rights Act and bring something else

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in its place. Thank you very much for coming in.

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4. 29pm, history was made, the three houses of the Anglican bishops,

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Clergy and Laity, all vote today allow women to become bishops, a

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perfect Church of England moment. A radical ground-breaking move greeted

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by the synod in the halls a gentle clap befitting of a Sunday afternoon

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cricket team. It is not the first time it was put to the vote but the

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first time it was one. The big question, what has changed within

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the church, its leadership and society. What happens to those who

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fundamentally disagree with such a month. We speak live to the

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Archbishop of Canterbury in a moment. On my first Sunday service

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in the parish, which is a parish with a tradition of saying "father"

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i toad in front of them in -- I stood in front of them in my robes

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and I said it is clearly obvious I'm not father. For Reverend Rose, the

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decision on bishops has been far too long in the making. It is 22 years

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since women were allowed to become priests. Back then Reverend Rose was

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there campaigning. I went to one of these sign-maker places and got them

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to make the sign up for me. When they asked me what are you putting

:15:17.:15:22.

on it I wrote there and then, "women beautifully and wonderfully made in

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the image of God". Today they were made equal in the Church of England

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too. Cheers everybody. Women will be welcomed into the top ranks. And the

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momentous vote got the bishops up for a boogie.

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# We are dancing in the light of God # We are dancing in the light of God

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I'm not sure whether it is John servicing the alarm... Far away from

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the General Synod, one of the favourites to become the first

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female bishop was busy getting on with the mundaneties of life as a

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parish priest. What else have you put in? Loo, I'm

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really excited. You have to see the loos. I will be known as the vicar

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who put in first class loos claim! We spent the day with a vicar who

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knows what matters? I'm exceptionally proud of the toilets

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that we have put in, exceptionally proud. Nice. Would a male priest

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have thought about putting in the loos? Ha ha. I will be upset because

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I don't think it is the way that the church should move, I think that it

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disadvantages us in so many ways. As the synod debated an issue that has

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divided Anglicans for decades, we invited an opponent of the

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ordination of women to meet Rose and a parishioner. You don't support the

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women bishops? No. You think as a woman I can come to you as a bishop

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and you could help me more than a woman could? Not at all. Because I

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think at the heart of being a bishop isn't all of the day-to-day things

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that people do, it is about being that focus for unity. You were

:17:07.:17:09.

talking about women in ministry, I want to see women in ministry, I

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don't think you have to put a collar around your neck to put a woman in

:17:13.:17:16.

ministry. You see yourselves asset apart in this holy order that nobody

:17:17.:17:21.

else in particular, a woman, can ever be a part of because of our

:17:22.:17:25.

gender. I don't think that I'm set apart in a way that makes me better

:17:26.:17:28.

than anybody else in the church. I think that I have a particular role

:17:29.:17:34.

in the church, which is to celebrate the sacraments as a priest, I don't

:17:35.:17:37.

think that is any more or less important than somebody being the

:17:38.:17:40.

chair of a charity in the church, or chair of the PCC or

:17:41.:17:42.

chair of a charity in the church, or why have we decided that the priest

:17:43.:17:43.

is the why have we decided that the priest

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anyone else. Well I certainly don't think so, but what I certainly

:17:48.:17:50.

believe is that I also have been called to celebrate the sacrament,

:17:51.:17:55.

and because of my gender, for such a long time, the church caught up with

:17:56.:18:01.

the tradition and th cultural practices have actually said women

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can't and we bought into that for such a long time. I have to say you

:18:06.:18:10.

are not at a disadvantage if you are not ordained, I don't believe that

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because I have a collar around my neck I'm more important than other

:18:14.:18:16.

people in the church, than lay people. But you are perceived as

:18:17.:18:20.

more important and as the most important in this church? That is

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why I think the focus should have been correcting the clericalism of

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the church. As her colleagues prepared to take the historic vote,

:18:29.:18:32.

we accompanied Reverend Rose to her other job. She's Speaker's Chaplain

:18:33.:18:37.

in the House of Commons, it is a role that comes with its own

:18:38.:18:40.

dresser. I certainly have no ambition or desire to be a bishop.

:18:41.:18:45.

My greatest ambition was actually to meet Desmond Tutu and Nelson

:18:46.:18:49.

Mandela, I have achieved my ambition in the church. I have had my great

:18:50.:18:55.

experience, Lord, now let that servant depart in peace! The motion

:18:56.:19:00.

has been carried in all three houses. Today's vote means someone,

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if not Reverend Rose will be first, England could get a female bishop by

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the end of the year. I feel like singing the song that they sang when

:19:09.:19:14.

Barack Obama was "change gonna come... It has been a long time

:19:15.:19:22.

coming. I think this is a moment for the church to look at and say now

:19:23.:19:27.

let's get on with it. Let's get on with it. Joining us now from York

:19:28.:19:36.

the Archbishop of Canterbury, Justin Welsby. Thank you very much indeed

:19:37.:19:39.

for joining us this evening. What do you think changed to allow the vote

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to go through? I think quite a lot of things changed. There was a real

:19:46.:19:50.

sense of gentleness and grace in the way it worked over the last few

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months. There has been much more listening to each other, much more

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conversation. Much more graciousness, much more willingness

:19:59.:20:04.

to treat each other in a human way. That's been a major cultural change

:20:05.:20:07.

in the way the church has worked. Do you think this will be

:20:08.:20:11.

transformative to the church as a whole? Yes, I do. I think it will be

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transformative, I think there is two particular aspects to that. I'm

:20:21.:20:24.

delighted personally that we are going to ordain women as bishops.

:20:25.:20:28.

That is something I have been looking forward to very, very much.

:20:29.:20:32.

And it is hugely exciting. But at the same time I'm aware that there

:20:33.:20:36.

are a lot of people who will be struggling with this. And I think

:20:37.:20:40.

you have one of them on your programme a few moments ago. The two

:20:41.:20:44.

changes, one we have made the decision to do it, but the second is

:20:45.:20:50.

that the way we're going to do it is to hold everyone together. To treat

:20:51.:20:55.

people as family not as party groups in which you chuck out the people

:20:56.:20:58.

you disagree with. It is the opposite. To enable, we're committed

:20:59.:21:03.

to enabling everyone to flourish, that is really important. Let me ask

:21:04.:21:06.

you, when you were putting forward the arguments, you said the general

:21:07.:21:10.

public would find it incomprehensible that we can't have

:21:11.:21:13.

women bishops. It is interesting you talk about the general public. I'm

:21:14.:21:16.

wondering if you think that the church is influenced by societal

:21:17.:21:21.

norms then. If society changes the church must? That is two questions.

:21:22.:21:32.

It is a very good question. I think to some degree all churches are

:21:33.:21:36.

always influenced by the culture in which they live. Because everyone

:21:37.:21:39.

who comes to the church is part of that culture. But it was very

:21:40.:21:42.

interesting to me today, listening to the very long debate, that it was

:21:43.:21:47.

essentially about theology, more than about culture. That argument

:21:48.:21:50.

was not one that came forward very strongly, it was a question of what

:21:51.:21:57.

is right before God in obedience to yes suss Christ -- obedience to

:21:58.:22:02.

Jesus Christ, loving one each other and the society we live. Of course

:22:03.:22:06.

we are influenced by society, but it was a theologically-based decision.

:22:07.:22:10.

If you use some of those phrases "loving one another" and "loving the

:22:11.:22:15.

society in which we live", we know it has taken 25 years to get to

:22:16.:22:20.

women priests. Will it be OK for a gay bishop to engage in a regular

:22:21.:22:25.

active sex life in 25 years or sooner, using those same arguments

:22:26.:22:32.

you just put forward? Today has been about the ordination of women to the

:22:33.:22:37.

Church of England. We are starting conversations which are going to be

:22:38.:22:42.

guided conversations over the issues of sexuality and I'm really not

:22:43.:22:45.

going to get into that, because it would be pre-empting the decisions.

:22:46.:22:49.

But it feels like you would support that on a personal level, would you?

:22:50.:22:56.

As I say I'm not going to get into it. I think we have a long way to go

:22:57.:23:00.

as part of the guided conversations and no predetermined outcome and I'm

:23:01.:23:06.

just quietly delighting in what's happened today in the affirmation of

:23:07.:23:12.

women across the country and the Church of England and in the fact

:23:13.:23:15.

that the church has come together so well. I think a lot of people will

:23:16.:23:19.

have sympathy with your position on this, which you said was you know

:23:20.:23:23.

confused in its own way. When you are guiding those conversations how

:23:24.:23:29.

are you guiding them. I think you once said the church has not been

:23:30.:23:35.

good at dealing with homophobia, we have empolice Italy and even

:23:36.:23:39.

supported homophobia that demands repentance. Are we to read n I

:23:40.:23:46.

understand -- empolice Italy and even supported homophobia. Is today

:23:47.:23:53.

about modernising the church, where are you guiding those conversations

:23:54.:23:56.

and I understand today is about women bishops? The conversations are

:23:57.:24:01.

guided, I'm glad to say, not by me, but by the House of bishops and all

:24:02.:24:07.

those in the church. It is something where we are learning to treat each

:24:08.:24:10.

other better than we did. You ask the change, the biggest change in

:24:11.:24:13.

the last 20 months has been the way we treat each other, and the way we

:24:14.:24:17.

are learning to treat people we disagree with. As we go forward with

:24:18.:24:21.

the discussion on sexuality, it is that quality of discussion of love

:24:22.:24:26.

and affection for one another that will be absolutely crucial. Of

:24:27.:24:32.

course it is difficult, life is difficult, there is no point in

:24:33.:24:35.

pretending otherwise, there is disagreements. It is wonderful when

:24:36.:24:38.

you get to an evening like this and there is a decision being taken and

:24:39.:24:45.

you can delight not just in the decision, but in the fact that it

:24:46.:24:49.

has been done well and then face the challenge as we go forward of other

:24:50.:24:53.

decisions, discussions we have to have. But also the huge challenge of

:24:54.:24:58.

delivering what we have promised this evening. And above all of

:24:59.:25:03.

delivering the church in its ministry in the world. The bishops

:25:04.:25:08.

are deeply deeply committed to that. When people look to the church for

:25:09.:25:14.

leadership, on the other issues that surround them, for example not gay

:25:15.:25:18.

Clergy but gay marriage, is that somewhere that you feel you are

:25:19.:25:24.

arriving at too? That you could see gay marriages being a positive way

:25:25.:25:31.

to live life? Well, as I have said, a couple of times so fashion and we

:25:32.:25:35.

can go round and round that circle, this evening is really about what's

:25:36.:25:40.

been going on today and I don't want to begin to pre-empt those

:25:41.:25:46.

discussions. Lord Carey said this weekend on the question of right to

:25:47.:25:49.

die and assisted dying that he thought we were in danger of putting

:25:50.:25:53.

doctrine before compassion, and I wonder if you feel that sometimes,

:25:54.:25:59.

again going back to what society is looking for in the norms, whether

:26:00.:26:05.

the church feels held back by those dogmas and doctrines when you

:26:06.:26:10.

yourself have said it is agonising to watch in pain die? It is actually

:26:11.:26:24.

Lord Carey is entitled to speak. It is a major debate going on. He has

:26:25.:26:28.

helped turn that into a much higher profile debate and that is a very,

:26:29.:26:31.

very good thing. Because this is a hugely important question for many

:26:32.:26:36.

of us. And like myself in my own personal experience, as well as my

:26:37.:26:39.

experience as a priest, like loads of friends, we have all got, you

:26:40.:26:45.

have probably got, that we have all had this experience of dealing with

:26:46.:26:50.

people who are, who have the most severe illness and near the end of

:26:51.:26:54.

their life. This isn't a question of doctrine, it is a question of

:26:55.:26:59.

compassion. Lord Carey said it was compassion for the particular person

:27:00.:27:05.

dying, all our Pastoral experience and all the church's Pastoral

:27:06.:27:11.

experience of compassion for people in terrible circumstances is that

:27:12.:27:16.

there is such a risk, such a huge risk of mistreatment, of

:27:17.:27:22.

manipulation, that we are very, very cautious about approaches to

:27:23.:27:26.

assisted dying. It has to be a proper debate. We have to work

:27:27.:27:30.

through the evidence and the issues, but as I wrote over the weekend in

:27:31.:27:37.

one paper, that this is not a difference between one group of

:27:38.:27:40.

people with a hardline of doctrine and another group of people who are

:27:41.:27:42.

saying we have to be compassionate. It is actually saying how we are

:27:43.:27:47.

compassionate and for what it is worth I think that the way he has

:27:48.:27:51.

described compassion is written far too narrowly and with a lack of

:27:52.:27:57.

appreciation for the risk and dangers to people who would be put

:27:58.:28:00.

under pressure if the law changed. That's why we are so against it. You

:28:01.:28:05.

think it would lead to a lot of people dying before they needed to?

:28:06.:28:14.

I think what it leads to is manipulation. I was a parish priest,

:28:15.:28:18.

a curate and a parish priest for ten years and was taking 70 funerals a

:28:19.:28:26.

year average at least. There were some where the families were

:28:27.:28:30.

wonderful and marvellous and others which were pretty grim and others

:28:31.:28:33.

where you were conscious that there was a level of difficulty going on

:28:34.:28:40.

if someone is very ill and they are often going to be depressed, they

:28:41.:28:44.

are often going to be in pain. And they say to their family I'm sure

:28:45.:28:48.

I'm a bit of a burden. You can say of course not, we love you, we value

:28:49.:28:55.

you, we want to care for you, or you can say well we can manage and you

:28:56.:29:01.

can do it in such a way that it creates a sense that the person

:29:02.:29:07.

really feels that the right thing to do is to seek to die. I'm afraid it

:29:08.:29:14.

is a harsh reality, not everyone is nice, not every family is

:29:15.:29:18.

compassionate. And people struggling with terminal illness, with very

:29:19.:29:21.

painful illness with the appalling cases. We have seen and heard about

:29:22.:29:27.

that recently that we have all had to deal with as priest, and often in

:29:28.:29:32.

our own families. I was talking to a bishop the other day who was saying

:29:33.:29:36.

it would have put him under so much pressure. It is very good indeed to

:29:37.:29:39.

talk to you, thank you very much indeed.

:29:40.:29:48.

The Government has talked a big game on tackling tax avoidance in recent

:29:49.:29:52.

years, putting more money into tax inspectors and making big rule

:29:53.:29:55.

changes. Tomorrow is a big development. We are here to explain.

:29:56.:30:02.

Chris tell us what is happening? It is good to see where women are

:30:03.:30:07.

firing out their biggest antitax weapon. They will list a thousand

:30:08.:30:12.

tax avoidance schemes which tens of thousands of members, and those

:30:13.:30:15.

members will be subject to a new thing called the accelerated payment

:30:16.:30:21.

notice. It used to be a case of what HMRC thought was a dodgy tax

:30:22.:30:24.

arrangement, they could take it to court and get the tax back. Under

:30:25.:30:28.

the new process, the accelerated payment process, what happens is

:30:29.:30:31.

they say you are in a dodgy tax scheme what will happen is you will

:30:32.:30:34.

pay us the money and then you can take us to court to get the

:30:35.:30:37.

difference back. So what it does is makes investing in what might be a

:30:38.:30:42.

slightly shady tax avoidance scheme a much nastier proposition. I guess

:30:43.:30:46.

the sort of big political question on all of this is how it will play

:30:47.:30:52.

out. To the extend to which this is a measure that hits very rich famous

:30:53.:30:58.

people possibly, people who don't like comedians we don't think are

:30:59.:31:01.

funny. Nobody will mind. The problem will be when you get tens of

:31:02.:31:05.

thousands of people in your net, you will get some innocent people in

:31:06.:31:08.

there, there are people who have been mis-sold investments in what

:31:09.:31:12.

are effectively tax avoidance products, not really clocking what

:31:13.:31:17.

they were. We came across one in a Newsnight investigation, where

:31:18.:31:21.

people who were hopelessly inadequate to take on the risk we

:31:22.:31:26.

were taking were taking them on. The real challenge for HMRC is how it

:31:27.:31:31.

affects people who shouldn't have been doing it for lots of reasons

:31:32.:31:35.

while making sure it gets money back and it is fair from the richest. We

:31:36.:31:40.

will know more tomorrow. You will. The mother of a vulnerable teenager,

:31:41.:31:44.

who took her own life, after she was arrested, has told this programme

:31:45.:31:47.

her daughter may still be alive if the law had been changed. . As

:31:48.:31:53.

things stand 17-year-olds can be held in police cells overnight as

:31:54.:31:58.

adults, despite a High Court ruling saying they should be given the same

:31:59.:32:02.

rights as children. The families of three teenagers who died shortly

:32:03.:32:05.

after leaving custody have written to the Home Secretary today

:32:06.:32:12.

criticising what they say are the false promises made after the

:32:13.:32:16.

judgment last year. Some of this report may be upsetting. She was

:32:17.:32:21.

talented confident and loving, that was the main thing. She was

:32:22.:32:28.

fun-loving, adventurous, outgoing, beautiful, I just miss her so much.

:32:29.:32:34.

Six months ago Martina's daughter took her own life. She had suffered

:32:35.:32:40.

from depression since the age of 12. Missing lessons, spending time in

:32:41.:32:44.

hospital. She was extremely vulnerable as a 17-year-old. She had

:32:45.:32:49.

a history of self-harm, she had a history of depression, she actually

:32:50.:32:54.

spent some time in hospital with mental health issues. So in terms of

:32:55.:33:00.

vulnerability she was an incredibly vulnerable young girl. On a Saturday

:33:01.:33:05.

afternoon before Christmas, she was arrested at a flat with a small

:33:06.:33:09.

amount of cannabis. She was brought to the police station in Ashton, one

:33:10.:33:15.

of the largest in Manchester. If she had been 16 years old she would have

:33:16.:33:19.

been interviewed here and then sent to a secure children's home, or

:33:20.:33:23.

another form of local authority care. Instead, as a 17-year-old she

:33:24.:33:29.

was treated as an adult, and held in a police cell for three days and two

:33:30.:33:32.

nights, waiting for her court appearance. That, say campaigners,

:33:33.:33:39.

was a clear breach of human rights law, which should treat all

:33:40.:33:43.

under-18s as children. The difference between a police cell and

:33:44.:33:47.

local authority secure accommodation is huge, there are trained staff in

:33:48.:33:52.

local authority places, social workers, people who can care for the

:33:53.:33:56.

welfare of a vulnerable person who would take that person to court and

:33:57.:34:00.

look after their well being. The job of the police is really to detain

:34:01.:34:06.

and prevent phoning. Those children do need that protection. Exactly

:34:07.:34:12.

what happened in that cell we do not know. Greater Manchester Police say

:34:13.:34:16.

they can't comment while an investigation is on going. But as

:34:17.:34:20.

with other forces they are not currently allowed to transfer

:34:21.:34:24.

17-year-olds to local authority care. After a weekend locked up she

:34:25.:34:29.

was taken to court and bailed, her parents say they were not told she

:34:30.:34:34.

had been released. A day later she was found dead. Hanged in a friend's

:34:35.:34:40.

back garden. I don't think she would have coped with it. I don't think

:34:41.:34:43.

she would have coped and that's why we have come to the outcome that we

:34:44.:34:47.

have come to today. I think she would have been distraught. I think

:34:48.:34:53.

that the head banging and the hair pulling would have been the only way

:34:54.:34:56.

she thought she could deal with it. She should have got help while she

:34:57.:35:01.

was in the police station. She shouldn't have been released without

:35:02.:35:05.

contacting anybody. And the whole thing is a total disgrace. It is

:35:06.:35:14.

wrong. It is wrong. It is just destroyed us. It has destroyed me as

:35:15.:35:19.

a mother and the whole family. Totally devastated by the loss of

:35:20.:35:27.

Kesia. It is a total shock, even though we knew she had problems. It

:35:28.:35:35.

is just, I mean you can't describe the pain and the heartbreak that we

:35:36.:35:37.

felt and that we're still feeling. the pain and the heartbreak that we

:35:38.:35:48.

There are no words. Kesia is one of a number of 17-year-olds, all from

:35:49.:35:54.

Manchester to die recently in very similar circumstances. In 2011

:35:55.:36:02.

former head boy Eddie Thornbur killed himself after being caught

:36:03.:36:07.

with 50p worth of Dan business. A year later Joe shot himself on the

:36:08.:36:13.

family firm, two nights earlier he was held overnight for

:36:14.:36:16.

drink-driving. The families of both boys were at the High Court last

:36:17.:36:18.

year when the judge ruled the Government was breaking the law by

:36:19.:36:22.

treating them as adults, as a result the Home Office did make some

:36:23.:36:26.

limited changes. Parents are now informed if a 17-year-old is

:36:27.:36:30.

detained by the police. But crucially, wider reform, including

:36:31.:36:34.

rules on when a cell should be used were put off until an internal

:36:35.:36:38.

review can be completed. That still hasn't happened. Today the families

:36:39.:36:44.

of all three teenagers sent a letter to Theresa May demanding she finish

:36:45.:36:49.

the work she started. They paid lip service to the court. They did

:36:50.:36:55.

absolutely the bare minimum, which to me is not right. You can't

:36:56.:36:59.

understand really why they wouldn't change t you are talking about our

:37:00.:37:04.

17-year-old children. You know, it is this sort of element of well when

:37:05.:37:09.

we're ready. Well it is already going to be too late for three

:37:10.:37:16.

children. The Home Office said this evening it will carefully consider

:37:17.:37:20.

the letter, and respond in due course. Three teenagers are dead,

:37:21.:37:25.

nothing can bring them back, but for the families involved this is still

:37:26.:37:35.

a fight very much worth having. He is white with red hair, crudely

:37:36.:37:42.

put, but today the singer Ed Sheeran was named the most important act in

:37:43.:37:46.

black and urban music but the power list calling itself the leading

:37:47.:37:49.

black music radio station, the list itself in which three of the top

:37:50.:37:54.

four acts are white has been criticised as the saddest list in

:37:55.:38:04.

human history by Wily. Has the English music scene gone backwards

:38:05.:38:11.

or changed in how it sees music and colour.

:38:12.:38:17.

Let's see where your favourites came in the One Extra Power List.

:38:18.:38:27.

Rudamental number one, banker's son Sam Smith at four, Tine Tempa at 3

:38:28.:38:51.

and then Ed Sheeran at three. He's already so big that he has his own

:38:52.:38:59.

body double. 23-year-old Sheeran from Yorkshire has written for One

:39:00.:39:05.

Direction and tailor Swift, and collaborating here with Pharrell

:39:06.:39:11.

here. But not everyone is satisfied that

:39:12.:39:18.

One Extra has come correct with its poll, take Wiley, he has had this to

:39:19.:39:23.

say on social media. I have never been influenced by a white artist to

:39:24.:39:29.

make black music, #never. We have been bumped, not taking anything

:39:30.:39:34.

away from Ed, he's sick, but black artists in England are getting

:39:35.:39:37.

bumped. It was very controversial, it is no surprise to me, but always

:39:38.:39:43.

the case in this country it is white artists who have dominated coming to

:39:44.:39:48.

black music. It seems to be a more palatable version and more

:39:49.:39:51.

acceptable version of the music in this country. Let's refresh our

:39:52.:40:03.

memory about One Extra's mission statement. The remit is to play the

:40:04.:40:07.

best in contemporary black music with a strong emphasis on live music

:40:08.:40:14.

and supporting new UK artists. I can't understand how a radio station

:40:15.:40:18.

promoting black music playing black music and urban music had a list

:40:19.:40:22.

that didn't resemble the people that largely create that music and

:40:23.:40:25.

culture. It was a state of confusion. That is not to say that

:40:26.:40:28.

anybody on the list didn't deserve to be there because of their talent.

:40:29.:40:31.

But we have to think about how we title the list and what we are

:40:32.:40:41.

actually trying to promote. 1 Xtra presenter Twin B helped to compile

:40:42.:40:45.

the station's powerlist. One thing we are not about is race, it is

:40:46.:40:48.

about supporting music that fits what we do. The DJs have a big part

:40:49.:40:56.

on what gets played on air. And Ed Sheeran has been championed across

:40:57.:41:00.

the station from the beginning of his career. Do you need to rebrand

:41:01.:41:03.

the statement and get away from the idea that it is a contemporary black

:41:04.:41:07.

station? More people to need to listen to it to understand what we

:41:08.:41:11.

do and understand the landscape of music as well. There is an award for

:41:12.:41:19.

you, it is 1 Xtra Powerlist, number one Ed Sheeran So Sheeran is the the

:41:20.:41:26.

first recipient of the bauble, perhaps they should call it the one

:41:27.:41:32.

sie. My guest has collaberated with Ed

:41:33.:41:39.

Sheeran and the chief music critic of the Guardian is with us. We are

:41:40.:41:42.

not questioning talent. But when you hear the grime artist Wily say --

:41:43.:41:49.

Wiley say this is the saddest music list in history, can you hear what

:41:50.:41:55.

he's getting to? I hear it but it is changed and interpreted wrongly. The

:41:56.:41:59.

list was a power list, they never said a blacklist or urban list. They

:42:00.:42:03.

said a power list. From my experience Ed was championed by 1

:42:04.:42:08.

Xtra first, he is influenced by black music. He himself wouldn't say

:42:09.:42:12.

he's influenced to it, but influenced by it. Which as well as

:42:13.:42:17.

every other music. Are you happy with him being the number one on the

:42:18.:42:23.

list of you know most important act in black and urban music, that

:42:24.:42:27.

sounds crazy doesn't it? It is beyond colour, this is art. And you

:42:28.:42:32.

can't segregate it like that. He's the one person that I know that can

:42:33.:42:39.

work with tailor Swift to -- Taylor Swift to Rick Ross, one is white and

:42:40.:42:45.

one black, and it is beyond that. There is something in that, that we

:42:46.:42:50.

have transcended the discussion of what colour music is and just gone

:42:51.:42:55.

with who it is? You would think we would have got past the idea that

:42:56.:43:00.

something is black and white music, it is an unfortunate list because 1

:43:01.:43:08.

Xtra brands itself as a black and urban music, and urban is a

:43:09.:43:12.

euphamism for black. Will it mean anything other? The question is

:43:13.:43:16.

where is music now, music is without colour really. The popular music we

:43:17.:43:22.

listen to is blended across hip hop, urban music, club music, dance

:43:23.:43:26.

music, chart music. Everyone is listening to all this stuff and

:43:27.:43:37.

blended together. Where does Ed Sheeran sit in that? He siting

:43:38.:43:46.

across it, his hip hop and rhyming is black, and it does sit across the

:43:47.:43:50.

genres. If you are a young black artist looking for a niche station

:43:51.:43:54.

to support young black artists to be told that red is the blue black is

:43:55.:43:59.

fairly disappointing. Is it about class, when you look at Disclosure

:44:00.:44:03.

and Sam Smith, the son of a banker, is it not about colour but about...

:44:04.:44:10.

? Not at all, it is about music, Disclosure, house music, created by

:44:11.:44:13.

black guy, that is nothing to do with whether it is a white guy

:44:14.:44:18.

creating it, as long as you pay homage to where it was created and

:44:19.:44:23.

appreciate the music, I'm happy with polka dot people with stripes doing

:44:24.:44:27.

it. What about the station, is it about time to stop having a station

:44:28.:44:30.

that thinks about having about time to stop having a station

:44:31.:44:35.

that supports it? 1 Xtra supports black artists, me and many others,

:44:36.:44:38.

and Ed Sheeran did come from that, black artists, me and many others,

:44:39.:44:42.

the collaborations and EP, and people he has worked with. It is

:44:43.:44:45.

only the further stuff that has taken him further along, acoustic.

:44:46.:44:51.

Black artists do struggle, they are underrepresented in popular music in

:44:52.:44:57.

the major white countries of Britain and America, they need some

:44:58.:45:00.

infrastructure and support. That is what 1 Xtra was invented for. It is

:45:01.:45:06.

stuck with the fact that it wants to play music that people are listening

:45:07.:45:16.

to. If you look at the US Ed Sheeran and Sam Smith are number one and two

:45:17.:45:27.

in the charts. Iggy Ezelia is a white rapper from Australia, and

:45:28.:45:33.

generic, it is the Elvis syndrome, if we can find a white artist to do

:45:34.:45:38.

black music. She mimics an accent? She puts on an American accent, and

:45:39.:45:45.

she puts on the style that she is a white rapper. That is a big

:45:46.:45:51.

impetuous in the music industry. I believe the point when I sit down

:45:52.:45:54.

and say yes there should be a lot more support for black artists in

:45:55.:46:00.

general. However, I want to kind of, that is a whole other subject we can

:46:01.:46:05.

talk about for days. We will invite you next time. Thank you for coming

:46:06.:46:08.

in. That's it for tonight. We leave you with the Nobel Prize winning

:46:09.:46:15.

author and freedom campaigner Nadine Gordimer whose death was announced.

:46:16.:46:18.

She talk to Hardtalk programme and asked if she ever wished she had

:46:19.:46:24.

become a writer away from the backdrop of apartheid, here is her

:46:25.:46:31.

answer. I think people concentrate on the political aspects. But in my

:46:32.:46:38.

many books personal relations, which you have got nothing to do with

:46:39.:46:43.

politics or are influenced them, but they are there. To me writing,

:46:44.:46:49.

either mine or anyone else's, it is a discovery of life, it is an

:46:50.:46:55.

attempt to discover what human life is about. And if you live in a

:46:56.:47:00.

country where there is a lot of conflict, of course that will have a

:47:01.:47:05.

bearing upon it. But if you are a real writer you can make the death

:47:06.:47:10.

of a canary striking. We will see thicker cloud and patchy

:47:11.:47:40.

rain clearing away from the south-east corner, most dry, good

:47:41.:47:47.

sunny spells. A few isolated showers in Northern Ireland and Scotland,

:47:48.:47:52.

barely a handful, most avoiding it staying dry, a bit more

:47:53.:47:53.

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