Browse content similar to 03/09/2014. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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- western lead remembers under pressure on multiple fronts. NATO | :00:28. | :00:34. | |
must make a decision on forces to protect Ukraine. | :00:35. | :00:37. | |
It feels like back to the future with NATO with all this talk of a | :00:38. | :00:41. | |
Russian threat, on that issue and ISIS, moving beyond strong words | :00:42. | :00:53. | |
won't be easy. Rich man, poor man, how long will Germany be prepared to | :00:54. | :00:57. | |
put up with less frugal neighbours in the eurozone. We will hear from | :00:58. | :01:02. | |
both sides. I think a party run by an out-of-touch elite. Are they | :01:03. | :01:06. | |
really? We will ask these two what they make of Douglas Carswell's | :01:07. | :01:11. | |
scorn for the Tory leadership. Ship and the rest. | :01:12. | :01:26. | |
Squeezing IS out of existence is David Cameron heaps, but deciding | :01:27. | :01:31. | |
how to do so presents a nightmarish set of decisions. Yet British | :01:32. | :01:34. | |
military action could be loser than we think. Newsnight understands that | :01:35. | :01:39. | |
ministers are already considering plans to join American air strikes | :01:40. | :01:43. | |
targeting IS in Syria, potentially without asking parliament first. Yet | :01:44. | :01:49. | |
a simple military response seems unlikely to deal alone with the | :01:50. | :01:52. | |
complexity of the problem. Achievable, perhaps, only by talking | :01:53. | :01:56. | |
to those who were previously our enemies. One former British | :01:57. | :02:00. | |
ambassador tells us tonight talking to Assad may be the only way. Er | :02:01. | :02:16. | |
James Foley and Sotloff, pictured here in life and not in the horror | :02:17. | :02:20. | |
of their death. A small dignity afforded to victims of a desperate | :02:21. | :02:26. | |
situation, one where the west appears impotent to further horror. | :02:27. | :02:30. | |
The next turn could be the spectacle of a British Jihadi killing a | :02:31. | :02:33. | |
British hostage. David Cameron said there would be no | :02:34. | :02:38. | |
kneejerk reaction. Today in parliament neither he nor Ed | :02:39. | :02:44. | |
Miliband even mentioned military intervention. If I may say the way | :02:45. | :02:48. | |
the leader of the opposition is approaching this is entirely right. | :02:49. | :02:51. | |
We should see this crisis as one where we are there to help the | :02:52. | :02:55. | |
people on the ground and the countries in the region that want to | :02:56. | :02:58. | |
solve this crisis. We should not see this as one where it is a | :02:59. | :03:06. | |
western-led intervention some how. Newsnight understands that the mood | :03:07. | :03:09. | |
behind the scenes is stiffening and there is a growing, if reluctant | :03:10. | :03:15. | |
realisation that Britain may have no option but to intervene militarily | :03:16. | :03:19. | |
in Syria. This new strategy is driven by three people, David | :03:20. | :03:23. | |
Cameron, a man called Hugh Powell, who has quietly become one of his | :03:24. | :03:32. | |
most cocilliaries and Alex Hammond the man at the front. There is a lot | :03:33. | :03:44. | |
mentioned at Whitehall that he should followies instincts than | :03:45. | :03:47. | |
those around him, which I think he should. When Alex Hammond says we | :03:48. | :03:52. | |
won't rule out air strikes by definition they are on the table? I | :03:53. | :03:57. | |
think so. The new hawkishness is coming out in COBRA meetings, Alex | :03:58. | :04:04. | |
Hammond harangued the generals over how to get the jets to the regions, | :04:05. | :04:10. | |
needing for time to iron their shirts. There are mini-COBRA | :04:11. | :04:15. | |
meetings convened by David Cameron. Who controls Syria is not easily | :04:16. | :04:22. | |
defined. This map shows how IS forces occupy a swathe of northern | :04:23. | :04:29. | |
Syria. The Free Syrian Army and al-Nusra have strongholds in the | :04:30. | :04:33. | |
west, Kurdish forces control parts of the far north and then there are | :04:34. | :04:37. | |
areas, including around Damascus where control is often ambiguous. If | :04:38. | :04:42. | |
there were air strikes they would likely be targeted around the IS | :04:43. | :04:48. | |
stronghold of Raqqa, where hostages are believed to be being held. As | :04:49. | :04:52. | |
well as other command and control centres co-ordinating the violence | :04:53. | :04:55. | |
in Iraq. He has taken his time about it, but | :04:56. | :04:59. | |
President Obama has finally started to privately lobby Governments, | :05:00. | :05:03. | |
including our Government, for military support. He believes that | :05:04. | :05:08. | |
you have to strike ISIS at source in Syria. But there is a problem, where | :05:09. | :05:12. | |
as in Iraq the Government has asked for help, that is not the case here. | :05:13. | :05:18. | |
So he is looking to build a broad coalition to help him legitimise any | :05:19. | :05:25. | |
air strikes. But what about shaking this hand? For some it is time to | :05:26. | :05:32. | |
think what was once unthinkable. A deal with Syrian President Assad. | :05:33. | :05:37. | |
The alternative to Assad at the moment is not a democratic Syrian | :05:38. | :05:42. | |
Government, but an Islamic state. That would not be in the wider | :05:43. | :05:45. | |
interests of the Middle East. So we have to hold our noses and talk to | :05:46. | :05:50. | |
Assad? I would say so, but I understand the difficulties. | :05:51. | :05:54. | |
Memories of last year's chemical weapons attacks by the Assad regime | :05:55. | :05:58. | |
are too fresh for the Prime Minister to consider that. But unlike a year | :05:59. | :06:04. | |
ago he no longer believes he needs the authority of MPs to authorise | :06:05. | :06:09. | |
immediate military action. Barack Obama, who arrived in Britain this | :06:10. | :06:13. | |
evening for tomorrow's NATO summit has made clear he's not going into | :06:14. | :06:22. | |
Syria on his own. I'm joined by Andrew Mitchell from the | :06:23. | :06:25. | |
Conservatives and the Labour MP, Peter Hain, both former cabinet | :06:26. | :06:29. | |
ministers and both who voted in favour of intervention in Iraq in | :06:30. | :06:32. | |
2003. Andrew Mitchell also voted in favour of military action in Syria | :06:33. | :06:36. | |
last year. And with us from New York is the political columnist and Obama | :06:37. | :06:41. | |
observer for Time Magazine, Joe Klein. Thank you for being with us. | :06:42. | :06:46. | |
You told the House of Commons today that ISIS won't be beaten unless | :06:47. | :06:50. | |
there are air strikes in Syria, should the UK and the US be doing | :06:51. | :06:55. | |
this now? The only reason ISIS have been pushed back in northern Iraq is | :06:56. | :07:00. | |
because of the air strikes there. Otherwise they were running amock, | :07:01. | :07:05. | |
frankly, with all their mayhem and medieval barbarism, but their base | :07:06. | :07:10. | |
is in Syria as well. If they were to be pushed and there is no certainty | :07:11. | :07:14. | |
that this will happen out of Iraq by the Iraqi forces in the main, then | :07:15. | :07:18. | |
they will simply regroup in Syria. So there has to be action in Syria, | :07:19. | :07:24. | |
but I also said that it has to be with the engagment of the Assad | :07:25. | :07:29. | |
regime, however unpalatable that may be, also Iran and the Saudis as | :07:30. | :07:33. | |
well. You have to use this opportunity to try and get the key | :07:34. | :07:39. | |
regional players to tackle the fundamental fault line in this | :07:40. | :07:44. | |
region, which is the Shia-Sunni divide of which ISIS are the most | :07:45. | :07:48. | |
extreme on the Sunni side. On air strikes how can you be sure that | :07:49. | :07:53. | |
they wouldn't just destablise such a complex situation further. Simply in | :07:54. | :07:58. | |
terms of the geography. As we saw in Nick's report, they are spread out. | :07:59. | :08:02. | |
How could we be sure the strikes would be effective and what makes | :08:03. | :08:06. | |
this worse? You have to do this with great deal of care. The start of | :08:07. | :08:11. | |
your programme suggests we are rushing in tomorrow, I doubt that, | :08:12. | :08:16. | |
and I would counsel against it. It has to be done with great deal of | :08:17. | :08:21. | |
care, and not that Britain play cowboy in the region, but joins with | :08:22. | :08:26. | |
the regional force, ISIS is a bigger threat to them than us. You are | :08:27. | :08:31. | |
articulating the case for western air strikes alongside that | :08:32. | :08:36. | |
engagment, is that what your leader, Ed Miliband advocates? We are all | :08:37. | :08:40. | |
saying on the Labour side that something has to be done to stop | :08:41. | :08:44. | |
ISIS, that should include military action, not on our own and | :08:45. | :08:47. | |
unilaterally, not just rushing in. But supporting the Government if | :08:48. | :08:51. | |
they come up with a careful plan, including air strikes? If Ed was | :08:52. | :08:55. | |
consulted and it seemed a reasonable plan he would go along with it I'm | :08:56. | :09:01. | |
sure, but not grandstanding by the Prime Minister over Syria in August | :09:02. | :09:08. | |
like that, and he rightry lost that. You have made an eloquent case | :09:09. | :09:12. | |
arguing strongly that the UN has to be in the lead here? This is a | :09:13. | :09:16. | |
complex situation. I think that nothing should be taken off the | :09:17. | :09:20. | |
table, I agree with virtually everything Peter has said, but we | :09:21. | :09:23. | |
need to engage the regional powers and we need to engage more widely | :09:24. | :09:26. | |
than that. That is why I think it is exthrum important that Britain uses | :09:27. | :09:32. | |
its position as the current chair of the Security Council, uses its | :09:33. | :09:36. | |
position to try to galvanise the UN into taking action. This is not a | :09:37. | :09:40. | |
problem, it is a multifaceted problem, but it is not a problem | :09:41. | :09:43. | |
that will be resolved by action just by America and Britain and it is | :09:44. | :09:47. | |
certainly not a problem that will be resolved by smart weapons being | :09:48. | :09:51. | |
delivered from 12,000 feet. If you look at precedents where the UN has | :09:52. | :09:57. | |
tried to take intervention. Look what happened in Syria last year? | :09:58. | :10:02. | |
Russia would surely veto any kind of move towards this by the United | :10:03. | :10:06. | |
Nations, would they not. What gives you any hope at all that Putin, in | :10:07. | :10:09. | |
his current mood, would be supportive? Well the United Nations | :10:10. | :10:14. | |
is a hugely frustrating organisation as I wrote in this piece today. They | :10:15. | :10:17. | |
were virtually complicit in the genocide that took place in Rwanda, | :10:18. | :10:21. | |
but when the United Nations moves, when it gets it right it confers an | :10:22. | :10:27. | |
awesome authority on the decisions that it is able to take. And this is | :10:28. | :10:31. | |
such a major problem now in the Middle East that we need the sinews | :10:32. | :10:37. | |
of the United Nations heavily involved in any resolution that will | :10:38. | :10:40. | |
take place. It won't happen overnight, it will take a lot of | :10:41. | :10:45. | |
negotiation, the great powers will move the position they are in during | :10:46. | :10:49. | |
that time but not something that will be resolved in short-term. Even | :10:50. | :10:52. | |
if the United Nations were able to get some agreement, as you | :10:53. | :10:55. | |
acknowledge, it would take a long time. With the Prime Minister saying | :10:56. | :10:58. | |
that right now this is a direct threat to the UK, are you willing to | :10:59. | :11:02. | |
put British safety and what happens here, the threat to our streets in | :11:03. | :11:07. | |
the hands of a tangled, frustrating bureaucracy like the UN? Absolutely | :11:08. | :11:12. | |
not. Of course Britain, as part of NATO, may play a role, but I think | :11:13. | :11:18. | |
that the United Nations confers an authority, the United Nations is the | :11:19. | :11:23. | |
right organisation for us now to try to make significant progress and | :11:24. | :11:26. | |
Britain has a key role to play through our diplomatic region and | :11:27. | :11:30. | |
our role in the United Nations in trying to galvanise opinion across | :11:31. | :11:33. | |
the region and the world focus on this very serious problem. Does | :11:34. | :11:36. | |
President Obama have any faith in the UN being able to grasp this | :11:37. | :11:42. | |
problem? I think he would like to have faith in the UN, but I don't | :11:43. | :11:47. | |
think that any rational observer in the region can really have all that | :11:48. | :11:50. | |
much faith. Although I agree that we should make that move. There are | :11:51. | :11:56. | |
other moves that are far more important and those involved, the | :11:57. | :12:03. | |
regional players there are on Iraq, which has already said that they | :12:04. | :12:08. | |
wish to co-operate with us. The Arab League, I think that as one of the | :12:09. | :12:15. | |
guests in London said that ISIS is a threat, a greater threat to the | :12:16. | :12:21. | |
region than it is to us and I would hope that we would be able to put | :12:22. | :12:29. | |
together a regional coalition with US, UK and some European support to | :12:30. | :12:34. | |
take action in this case. But measured action. I think it is | :12:35. | :12:38. | |
really clear, it has to be really clear to the American and British | :12:39. | :12:44. | |
public that we are not talking about a cowboy, George W Bush, send in | :12:45. | :12:51. | |
huge numbers of troops and overrun Iraq again type of operation. For | :12:52. | :12:55. | |
this to work it has to be very targeted air strikes and the use of | :12:56. | :12:58. | |
special operators on the ground. How close, therefore, given what you | :12:59. | :13:02. | |
describe as President Obama's ambition for a coalition of the | :13:03. | :13:07. | |
willing, if you like. How close do you feel he is to actually making a | :13:08. | :13:11. | |
decision that he must act? Because the view of so far has been | :13:12. | :13:16. | |
prevarication, real difficulty with taking a decision? Well I think that | :13:17. | :13:23. | |
you have to remember that even George W Bush took over a month to | :13:24. | :13:31. | |
react to 9/11. And the Afghanistan operation really should be a model | :13:32. | :13:36. | |
here. Because it was very few boots on the ground, the strategic and | :13:37. | :13:45. | |
tactical use of air power and against a rather weak a less | :13:46. | :13:51. | |
daunting enemy than ISIS. It was an action that went on for years and | :13:52. | :13:55. | |
years and years? And that is in part because it didn't remain a targeted, | :13:56. | :14:02. | |
measured, Special Forces-led effort. I mean a lot of that has to rest on | :14:03. | :14:07. | |
both Presidents, Bush who increased the troop levels and Obama who | :14:08. | :14:12. | |
significantly increased the troop levels in Afghanistan. I think that | :14:13. | :14:18. | |
the era of you know western powers launching massive assaults on | :14:19. | :14:23. | |
Islamic countries really has to end. It has ended. Andrew Mitchell if | :14:24. | :14:28. | |
action were to be taken without a vote in parliament what do you think | :14:29. | :14:33. | |
the reaction would be? We have all cast our minds back to this time | :14:34. | :14:37. | |
last year with the vote in parliament, could it happen without | :14:38. | :14:39. | |
a vote taking place? I don't think you require a vote for certain types | :14:40. | :14:43. | |
of military action. I think the Government would be wise to ensure | :14:44. | :14:48. | |
that any action they take is supported by parliament, it would be | :14:49. | :14:52. | |
a big mistake to ignore parliament in this. Peter Hain, possible | :14:53. | :14:57. | |
without a vote in parliament? It depends what it is, if it is a | :14:58. | :15:00. | |
question of rescuing hostages we don't need a vote in parliament, if | :15:01. | :15:05. | |
it is a wider attack we do. The elephants in the room here is the | :15:06. | :15:08. | |
Assad regime, there is an unwillingness and so far in London | :15:09. | :15:12. | |
to recognise that Assad is in place, we don't like him, he is a | :15:13. | :15:20. | |
Barrettous dictator -- barbarous dictator, but he's backed by 40% of | :15:21. | :15:25. | |
his dictate to they might not like him but they fear ISIS more. You | :15:26. | :15:30. | |
have to engage with him and you can't resolve the Syrian conflict | :15:31. | :15:33. | |
without doing that. Should David Cameron be talking to Assad? We have | :15:34. | :15:36. | |
reached a position where it is impossible to say no to almost any | :15:37. | :15:40. | |
option in dealing with this very complex and difficult problem. Thank | :15:41. | :15:45. | |
you very much. For a brief moment today it looked as if one of the | :15:46. | :15:49. | |
west's other foreign policy knots might have started to untangle. | :15:50. | :15:54. | |
Ukraine and Russia appeared to have agreed a ceasefire, within hours it | :15:55. | :15:58. | |
emerged it wasn't really a deal at all. The Ukrainian Prime Minister | :15:59. | :16:03. | |
scoffed at it, there was no agreement on territory at all. NATO | :16:04. | :16:06. | |
leaders will tomorrow have to try to deal with that as well as the crisis | :16:07. | :16:10. | |
in the Middle East. We're there ahead of the meeting in Wales. In | :16:11. | :16:15. | |
terms of IS what chance do you think there is of any coherent, cohesive | :16:16. | :16:21. | |
agreement in the next few days? Well, if there is going to be such a | :16:22. | :16:24. | |
discussion it is going to be on the margins of this, it is not actually | :16:25. | :16:29. | |
on the agenda of this summit, just before we came on air, I spoke to a | :16:30. | :16:33. | |
couple of people in the British Government who both said to me that | :16:34. | :16:37. | |
there has been no request for example to join American air strikes | :16:38. | :16:41. | |
in the region. Now of course these kinds of requests might come in such | :16:42. | :16:46. | |
informal discussions, if they did it would be far easier for the UK to | :16:47. | :16:51. | |
say yes in the case of Iraq, Syria remains hugely problematic I think | :16:52. | :16:55. | |
for the British Government in a legal, diplomatic, political and | :16:56. | :16:58. | |
military sense. So it could still be a while, I think, before we see a | :16:59. | :17:02. | |
common line emerge. In terms of Ukraine, which originally was the | :17:03. | :17:05. | |
main issue they were going to have to deal with, we saw today with the | :17:06. | :17:10. | |
unravelling of the ceasefire it really seems as if Putin is still | :17:11. | :17:16. | |
setting the agenda here. The west is scrabling to catch up? Well, and you | :17:17. | :17:22. | |
might say also the President of Ukraine also trying. He was the one | :17:23. | :17:29. | |
who let the hare run this morning announcing on Twitter that the | :17:30. | :17:32. | |
ceasefire had gone into effect. Then the Russians came out including his | :17:33. | :17:36. | |
own Ukrainian Prime Minister and started to pull the thing apart. We | :17:37. | :17:40. | |
don't know what is happening, it is true at some point many people | :17:41. | :17:45. | |
believe that Mr Putin will try to freeze the conflict, hold on to the | :17:46. | :17:50. | |
gains s that the recent introduction of Russian forces has allowed them | :17:51. | :17:54. | |
to make in Ukraine. All that have is something that the leaders are going | :17:55. | :17:57. | |
to discuss for much of tomorrow and what they can do about it. That too | :17:58. | :18:01. | |
is an area where I don't think they are getting strong leadership from | :18:02. | :18:04. | |
the United States, for example on the issue of should they arm | :18:05. | :18:09. | |
Ukraine, the answer is they are not ready to take that step. That does | :18:10. | :18:13. | |
leave Mr Putin still calling an awful lot of the shots and trying to | :18:14. | :18:18. | |
waken the hope of the ceasefire in a week where there have been threats | :18:19. | :18:22. | |
of further EU economic sanctions on Russia. No doubt we will hear from | :18:23. | :18:26. | |
you tomorrow. There are, not surprisingly, nerves among Ukraine's | :18:27. | :18:30. | |
near neighbours, a little earlier I spoke to Radoslaw Sikorski, the | :18:31. | :18:35. | |
Polish foreign minister I started by asking him whether he thought a | :18:36. | :18:41. | |
Ukrainian ceasefire was possible this week? It would be very good if | :18:42. | :18:46. | |
the fighting stopped and if a political settlement could be | :18:47. | :18:52. | |
reached. But I think we have had statements from the Kremlin before | :18:53. | :18:57. | |
which didn't check out. Also we have to remember that President Putin has | :18:58. | :19:03. | |
proven to be an agile tactition. But he has underestimated the effect of | :19:04. | :19:08. | |
the loss of confidence that we have in his words. Do you trust Putin? I | :19:09. | :19:16. | |
think it was comrade Lenin who said "trust and verify". In terms of | :19:17. | :19:20. | |
where this is all taking place, it is in your neighbourhood, how | :19:21. | :19:25. | |
worried are you about the extent of Putin's ambition, does Poland feel | :19:26. | :19:29. | |
threatened? Poland is indeed a neighbour of both Russia and Ukraine | :19:30. | :19:34. | |
and obviously when neighbours quarrel it is of concern. We would | :19:35. | :19:41. | |
like the decolonisation of the former Soviet Union to proceed more | :19:42. | :19:46. | |
smoothly. It is very difficult for a former colonial power to acknowledge | :19:47. | :19:51. | |
the existence and the right to existence of a former protege. But | :19:52. | :19:57. | |
the sooner it happens the better for the citizens, even of the former | :19:58. | :20:05. | |
Metropolis, let alone the former colony. It looks like an awful lot | :20:06. | :20:11. | |
more than Putin having difficulty acknowledges the decolonisation of | :20:12. | :20:15. | |
the former Soviet Union. It looks like quite the reverse that he's | :20:16. | :20:19. | |
actually trying to extend his power? President Putin has indeed stated | :20:20. | :20:24. | |
his aims rather frankly in his annexation speech of the Crimea. But | :20:25. | :20:31. | |
it is so bold and so brazen that many in Europe still can't believe | :20:32. | :20:35. | |
it is for real. Do you believe it is for real? Yes. NATO's proposals | :20:36. | :20:41. | |
appear to be rapid response force of several thousand troops to protect | :20:42. | :20:45. | |
Eastern Europe. That potentially means NATO troops, Polish troops in | :20:46. | :20:51. | |
direct combat with Russian forces since the end, then the aftermath of | :20:52. | :20:55. | |
a Second World War. Are you aware of the significance of that, what would | :20:56. | :21:02. | |
that mean? Well you have NATO bases, you don't think they threaten | :21:03. | :21:07. | |
anybody, everybody understands it is not strength that invites | :21:08. | :21:11. | |
aggression, it is weakness that invites aggression, as the | :21:12. | :21:14. | |
Ukrainians are finding out to their cost. So NATO belatedly | :21:15. | :21:23. | |
strengthening its eastern flank is at last beginning to level the | :21:24. | :21:28. | |
security across the NATO treaty area with the hope of preventing what you | :21:29. | :21:32. | |
have just described. Minister, thank you very much indeed. | :21:33. | :21:35. | |
Thank you. Now tomorrow the head of the | :21:36. | :21:39. | |
European Central Bank might, just might get out his chequebook to sign | :21:40. | :21:44. | |
off a few enormous promises of money. Because, let's face it, there | :21:45. | :21:50. | |
doesn't seem to be much chance of the eurozone's economies staggering | :21:51. | :21:57. | |
back to health on their own. For how long for the countries who have got | :21:58. | :22:01. | |
their act to go will Germany give cash to those who are more willing | :22:02. | :22:04. | |
to spend it. We have been hearing both sides of the story. This is | :22:05. | :22:15. | |
Italy. At the moment it is casting a shadow over Europe's economy. There | :22:16. | :22:24. | |
is no better example of this economic malaise than here in | :22:25. | :22:35. | |
Naples. In 2011 a scandal involving rubbish | :22:36. | :22:40. | |
collection in Naples briefly captured the world's attention. A | :22:41. | :22:45. | |
combination of bad management, corruption and poor public finances | :22:46. | :22:49. | |
led to an unprecedented build-up of rubbish in the streets. Eventually | :22:50. | :22:59. | |
people started to burn it in protest. Three years on, Naples | :23:00. | :23:13. | |
still has a rubbish problem. And Italy's economy is no better. A you | :23:14. | :23:19. | |
don't have to spend much time in Naples to see that in large parts of | :23:20. | :23:24. | |
Italy any talk of economic recovery feels pretty meaningless, but this | :23:25. | :23:28. | |
isn't a problem which began in 2010, it is much more long running than | :23:29. | :23:35. | |
that. Italy has now entered a triple-dip recession, in fact the | :23:36. | :23:39. | |
economy is no bigger than it was in 2000. Unemployment is 12. 5%, and | :23:40. | :23:44. | |
Government debt is climbing, it currently stands at a huge 130% of | :23:45. | :23:50. | |
GDP. But the biggest worry is what is happening with prices. They have | :23:51. | :23:56. | |
started falling. The country has entered deflation. Falling prices | :23:57. | :24:00. | |
suck demand out of the high street. They push down wages as profits | :24:01. | :24:06. | |
fall, and they make debt harder to repay. Italy is already in | :24:07. | :24:10. | |
deflation, there are fears that may soon spread to the rest of the | :24:11. | :24:22. | |
eurozone. Italy has a toxic cocktail of deflation, high unemployment and | :24:23. | :24:26. | |
high youth unemployment, that is the recipe for another lost decade. For | :24:27. | :24:31. | |
the past five years there has been only one quarter in which we had | :24:32. | :24:38. | |
positive growth and even before the crisis before 2007 there has been | :24:39. | :24:44. | |
very low growth. We have long-running problems, at least two | :24:45. | :24:49. | |
decades old in terms of a high public debt, low capital formation, | :24:50. | :24:55. | |
high corruption, high public spending, high taxes and very high | :24:56. | :25:02. | |
unemployment rates at the moment. Italy's economy faces a whole host | :25:03. | :25:05. | |
of problems. Some of the reforms the Government is trying to implement | :25:06. | :25:09. | |
will begin to address the long-term issues. But they won't do much for | :25:10. | :25:13. | |
this country in the short-term. And that's the problem. The kind of | :25:14. | :25:17. | |
things which could give Italy the shot in the arm it needs are opposed | :25:18. | :25:31. | |
by the eurozone's largest economy. Germany's horrified by what it sees | :25:32. | :25:36. | |
in Italy. Here things are very different, unemployment is low, the | :25:37. | :25:39. | |
budget is in surplus, and growth has been strong. This is the Town Hall | :25:40. | :25:47. | |
in Munich, one of the healthiest and most productive cities in Europe. In | :25:48. | :25:51. | |
the past 15 years German economic success has been based on two | :25:52. | :25:55. | |
pillars, a decade of flat real wages gave it one of the most competitive | :25:56. | :25:59. | |
economies in the world and the creation of the euro locked in | :26:00. | :26:06. | |
export markets across Europe. Germany's politicians and public are | :26:07. | :26:09. | |
terrified that they might have to bail out other countries. The | :26:10. | :26:12. | |
general view is that places like France and Italy just need more | :26:13. | :26:18. | |
reform. Italy has basically done nothing over the last five years. So | :26:19. | :26:24. | |
there have been no reforms, the political environment in Italy is | :26:25. | :26:28. | |
very difficult, you know. The Government is changing every six | :26:29. | :26:32. | |
months and so there is no clear strategy for this country to get out | :26:33. | :26:42. | |
of the crisis. There is a reason Germans are uncharacteristically | :26:43. | :26:46. | |
animated by this. What happens in Europe affects their economy. You | :26:47. | :26:50. | |
can see this in the traditional barometer of the German economy, the | :26:51. | :26:54. | |
car industry, which was badly hit by the crisis in Europe. Overall the | :26:55. | :26:58. | |
German economy actually contracted in the second quarter of this year. | :26:59. | :27:03. | |
Selling high-value products like these cars to the big emerging | :27:04. | :27:08. | |
economies has provided Germany with some insulation against the European | :27:09. | :27:13. | |
crisis. But with Russia and Brazil in recession, and India and China | :27:14. | :27:16. | |
slowing, that protection is starting to wear thing. We are not in a | :27:17. | :27:21. | |
recession yet. Even if the second, third quarter would be negative | :27:22. | :27:25. | |
again, we at least here in Germany would not talk about a recession. | :27:26. | :27:28. | |
This would be rather, you know, a technical or a slowdown of the | :27:29. | :27:33. | |
economy. Tomorrow the European Central Bank will announce its | :27:34. | :27:37. | |
latest policy steps, it is in a difficult position. The kind of | :27:38. | :27:41. | |
policies which might provide support to countries like Italy are fiercely | :27:42. | :27:50. | |
opposed in Germany? That's the fundamental problem, cities like | :27:51. | :27:53. | |
Munich and Naples, with very little economies, have been placed in the | :27:54. | :27:57. | |
same economic block. The question is can European politicians find a way | :27:58. | :28:05. | |
to make this work with me now from the chief economics commentator at | :28:06. | :28:11. | |
the Financial Times, the economist from the University of Sussex. And | :28:12. | :28:18. | |
the senior economist at Berenberg Bank. Thank you for coming in. | :28:19. | :28:23. | |
Martin Wolf, firstly these problems are tub born and arguably long-term | :28:24. | :28:35. | |
if the eurozone can't get its act together what is the worst case | :28:36. | :28:47. | |
scenario? I have just published a book written viewers can get a good | :28:48. | :28:52. | |
view of things by reading it. The worst that could have happened, I | :28:53. | :28:55. | |
don't think it is very likely, is that it breaks up. I think it is far | :28:56. | :29:01. | |
more likely is what I have described as the bad marriage scenario. That | :29:02. | :29:09. | |
is to say the costs of break-up are incredibly high, they see and | :29:10. | :29:13. | |
understand that enough will be done to keep it together, and enough is | :29:14. | :29:16. | |
consistently done to keep it together. Both by the policy makers | :29:17. | :29:19. | |
and Governments and the European Central Bank which has acted very | :29:20. | :29:23. | |
powerfully in the past, and might get act powerfully again. They have | :29:24. | :29:27. | |
done enough to keep it together, but not enough either collectively, they | :29:28. | :29:32. | |
have to do some things together, or individually to make this really a | :29:33. | :29:38. | |
prosperous union. They are in my view likely to remain, the most | :29:39. | :29:43. | |
likely by far is just in a very uncomfortable relationship. What are | :29:44. | :29:48. | |
the consequences for the continent of staying in a terrible marriage, | :29:49. | :29:51. | |
as you cry it, very unhappily, what does it mean in brass tacks? I'm | :29:52. | :29:57. | |
assuming that there are obviously political and social consequences | :29:58. | :30:00. | |
which others can probably talk more about than I can. I have spent | :30:01. | :30:03. | |
recently the summer in Italy it is clear this is a very depressed | :30:04. | :30:07. | |
country. They have experienced really five years of recession and | :30:08. | :30:11. | |
the economy is now about as big as it was 15 years ago. Unemployment is | :30:12. | :30:15. | |
very high, youth unemployment is very high. A lot of people are | :30:16. | :30:18. | |
leaving. It is a very depressed state. But remember at the same time | :30:19. | :30:22. | |
that this is an ageing continent, I tend to think that very old people | :30:23. | :30:27. | |
and elderly people will not start revolutions, the young are | :30:28. | :30:34. | |
remarkably acquiescent. That is an astonishing thing for me. There is a | :30:35. | :30:39. | |
reasonably, overwhelmingly probable that they will go on like that. | :30:40. | :30:43. | |
Isn't the question though for Italy, France and Spain, is they could get | :30:44. | :30:47. | |
out of an unhappy marriage if they went about some serious reform and | :30:48. | :30:51. | |
actually showed discipline? I think it depends what kind of reforms we | :30:52. | :30:58. | |
are talking about. So Italy remember is a country that only Haiti and | :30:59. | :31:04. | |
Zimbabwe have grown less than Italy in the last 20 years. Zero | :31:05. | :31:09. | |
productivity growth in the last 20 years. My real problem, even with | :31:10. | :31:12. | |
the report we have just heard is the diagnosis of what the differences | :31:13. | :31:15. | |
between say a country like Germany and Italy is just wrong. Then the | :31:16. | :31:19. | |
medicine has been wrong and the patient has been getting sicker. In | :31:20. | :31:26. | |
what sense? How do you increase your competitiveness, what does it mean? | :31:27. | :31:30. | |
It means having productive companies and being able to produce the kind | :31:31. | :31:34. | |
of goods that the world wants to buy, both products and services. So | :31:35. | :31:40. | |
Germany wins procurement contracts in the UK, Seimens recently, not | :31:41. | :31:46. | |
because they paid their workers less during the whole the reforms, but | :31:47. | :31:49. | |
because Germany over the last decade has been investing massively in | :31:50. | :31:52. | |
precisely those areas that make you competitive. Except if you look at | :31:53. | :31:59. | |
who is doing well now look at the UK and other countries in northern | :32:00. | :32:04. | |
Europe where there have been reforms and changes, If you look at private | :32:05. | :32:09. | |
business investment in the UK it is scary. But the economy is growing | :32:10. | :32:12. | |
here? First of all it depends, we want to look at something more than | :32:13. | :32:16. | |
just a quarter. And I think, at least, that the UK is growing | :32:17. | :32:22. | |
because of debt-driven consumption and Mark Carney is right to worry | :32:23. | :32:28. | |
about that. Tomorrow the European Central Bank boss takes to the stage | :32:29. | :32:33. | |
and has a big opportunity to write off some IOUs to get everybody | :32:34. | :32:36. | |
spending again, what do the markets want him to do? The markets since | :32:37. | :32:41. | |
the speech a couple of weeks ago expect him to do big things, pretty | :32:42. | :32:45. | |
much something as big as he did in 2012 when in London he announced | :32:46. | :32:49. | |
what is called ONT, these potentially unlimited bond purchases | :32:50. | :32:53. | |
which were actually never activated but which changed the whole eurozone | :32:54. | :32:58. | |
story from a downward spiral to at least for a while an upward spiral. | :32:59. | :33:03. | |
They expect a big message from him. If he doesn't deliver it could be | :33:04. | :33:06. | |
short-term trouble in the markets tomorrow. I think it is unlikely he | :33:07. | :33:15. | |
will deliver what the markets hope a huge bond-buying programme, he is | :33:16. | :33:18. | |
preparing the ground but it would be astonishing if he would be, it would | :33:19. | :33:23. | |
be a game-changer economically, politically is another matter. The | :33:24. | :33:26. | |
extend of the unhappy marriage, surely it is time for the ECB to | :33:27. | :33:34. | |
take bold action and get out the big bazuka again. In the eurozone we | :33:35. | :33:40. | |
have double trouble, on the one hand we have inflation far below the | :33:41. | :33:44. | |
target. Clearly there is a point for the ECB to do more. They had already | :33:45. | :33:48. | |
made some announcements in June but things got worse. What got worse has | :33:49. | :33:52. | |
nothing to do with deflation, it has to do with something that happens | :33:53. | :33:57. | |
outside the eurozone with the Ukraine crisis, that is not squarely | :33:58. | :34:03. | |
in the remit of the Central Bank t increases the pressure on the ECB to | :34:04. | :34:07. | |
do more. In terms of getting out of this, whatever the ECB does tomorrow | :34:08. | :34:13. | |
or in October, is it actually possible for them to write blank | :34:14. | :34:17. | |
cheques and give IOUs and get out of this crisis in this sway or is it | :34:18. | :34:21. | |
fundamentally the problem that there are countries in northern Europe | :34:22. | :34:24. | |
where the economies are so different to those in southern Europe that | :34:25. | :34:27. | |
something much more radical has to happen? Think of the US that | :34:28. | :34:33. | |
underwent a $4 trillion quantitative easing cycle, that is not what is | :34:34. | :34:37. | |
making today the US grow at a 3% rate, it was the fiscal stimulus | :34:38. | :34:41. | |
that stimulated that. I think quantitative easing is important | :34:42. | :34:44. | |
mainly to calm down the financial markets, but what gets your real | :34:45. | :34:49. | |
economy growing, what gets jobs and good jobs, high-quality and | :34:50. | :34:52. | |
well-paying jobs in the future which is what Portugal, Italy, Greece and | :34:53. | :34:56. | |
Spain need, is not quoting which also -- quantitative easing which | :34:57. | :35:00. | |
also ends up in the banks but serious spending both public and | :35:01. | :35:03. | |
private sector spending. Today we have record level hoarding rates in | :35:04. | :35:12. | |
Europe. I think it is 1. 5 trillion euros-worth being hoarded. Huge | :35:13. | :35:15. | |
amounts spent on boosting stock prices. Do you agree with that? In | :35:16. | :35:20. | |
the long run I would agree with this, but we need competitiveness | :35:21. | :35:23. | |
quickly and growth quickly. I think these things will not deliver | :35:24. | :35:27. | |
quickly enough. Do Germans have the patience for this? I think the | :35:28. | :35:30. | |
Germans have shown throughout the crisis that they are ready to help | :35:31. | :35:36. | |
the other countries. In return for reforms. We have demonstrated that | :35:37. | :35:39. | |
we can get countries reforming and deliver results. Countries like | :35:40. | :35:45. | |
Spain, Portugal, Greece, Ireland, the countries that had a package | :35:46. | :35:50. | |
financed by German tax payers are now growing rapidly, some countries | :35:51. | :35:55. | |
almost as fast as the UK. I think he can do things but he won't, but he | :35:56. | :35:59. | |
can do things which will help a little, but he can't fix the | :36:00. | :36:04. | |
problems identified. There are huge structural problems and huge | :36:05. | :36:08. | |
competitiveness problems and they are going to be taking years and | :36:09. | :36:12. | |
years to solve. But the structural problems are not just about labour | :36:13. | :36:15. | |
market rigidites and corruption, it is actually again about investment, | :36:16. | :36:19. | |
until you have proper public and private sector investing and R and | :36:20. | :36:23. | |
human capital formation and education, training you will not | :36:24. | :36:31. | |
have... Thank you all very much. It can be pretty impole light to leave | :36:32. | :36:36. | |
a party early. It is certainly downright rude to trash the host | :36:37. | :36:41. | |
after you have gone. That seems to be what Douglas Carswell is intent | :36:42. | :36:44. | |
on doing. Telling Newsnight the party he had been in for years until | :36:45. | :36:48. | |
just last week was run by out-of-touch elites, but having left | :36:49. | :36:51. | |
the Conservatives to run for UKIP, he now has to persuade people in | :36:52. | :37:03. | |
Essex his new found boldness is worth their vote. Things go up and | :37:04. | :37:11. | |
down in politics, but the basic picture stays the same, occasionally | :37:12. | :37:15. | |
the whole political system is thrown up in the air. In Essex right now | :37:16. | :37:18. | |
there is a by-election doing just that. As we visit UKIP's campaign is | :37:19. | :37:26. | |
under construction, quite literally. I see the plumbing and heating has | :37:27. | :37:33. | |
arrived. Hello Douglas. Welcome. The team, plumber and all are digesting | :37:34. | :37:39. | |
another opinion poll. This one gives Carswell a 32% lead. Can we talk | :37:40. | :37:43. | |
about the type of party you have joined, you talked about having a | :37:44. | :37:47. | |
five-year-old daughter and you have seen what feminism has to offer. | :37:48. | :37:53. | |
These are people until recently were calling women "sluts"? When you | :37:54. | :37:57. | |
discover people with those noxious views you have to make sure they | :37:58. | :38:01. | |
know it is intolerable, you cannot have people who hold those views | :38:02. | :38:04. | |
seeking public office or helping others seek public office. Carswell | :38:05. | :38:08. | |
is feared in this by-election because of how well he already knows | :38:09. | :38:13. | |
the electorate. He's not Conservative any more? I know, but | :38:14. | :38:18. | |
he's a Conservative at heart, oh I'm on camera. Are you a Conservative at | :38:19. | :38:25. | |
heart? I'm a free market Gladstonian liberal. 'S independent. I'm | :38:26. | :38:30. | |
independent. I don't mind the UKIP thing to stop these foreigners | :38:31. | :38:36. | |
coming in basically. Too many and this euro thing I don't think we | :38:37. | :38:39. | |
should be dictated to by them either. You don't quite agree with | :38:40. | :38:44. | |
her on the foreigners' point? We need to control our borders. | :38:45. | :38:47. | |
Controlling our borders doesn't mean not letting anyone in. We have too | :38:48. | :38:52. | |
many haven't we. Have we got too many? We have a shortage of GPs, if | :38:53. | :39:00. | |
you can get a good GP to come to this place and deliver healthcare, | :39:01. | :39:03. | |
it shouldn't matter where they come from. He would like to have Ed | :39:04. | :39:08. | |
Miliband as Prime Minister? You heard it your safe, how different | :39:09. | :39:11. | |
are Ed Miliband and David Cameron. Do you think Ed Miliband is really | :39:12. | :39:15. | |
free market? Is George Osborne that free market, look at the gene | :39:16. | :39:18. | |
market, look at the nationalised banks. They are not really that | :39:19. | :39:28. | |
different. . The seat was Labour in Clacton until Carswell turned it | :39:29. | :39:32. | |
Tory, remaining Labour supporters are flirting with UKIP, the question | :39:33. | :39:35. | |
is whether a UKIP fronted by Carswell can now attract these | :39:36. | :39:40. | |
one-time Labour voters. Do you usually vote Labour? I have voted | :39:41. | :39:45. | |
Tory? Are you disappointed with the Government? Yes. Are you going to | :39:46. | :39:49. | |
come back to Labour this time? Yes I am. I'm local boy, that would be | :39:50. | :39:53. | |
great, I will leave you one of the leaflets. What are you saying to | :39:54. | :39:57. | |
people who say they were Labour and thinking of going to UKIP. Why stick | :39:58. | :40:01. | |
with Labour? What is the difference between UKIP and the Tories, the | :40:02. | :40:04. | |
same policies and the same sessions and the same people now. If you are | :40:05. | :40:08. | |
not that way inclined and you are usually a Labour voter stick with | :40:09. | :40:11. | |
Labour, because you know the Government has left Clacton behind. | :40:12. | :40:14. | |
There is no economic recovery here. But the difficulty for you is if | :40:15. | :40:18. | |
there is a Douglas Carswell victory, a UKIP victory, that will help Ed | :40:19. | :40:23. | |
Miliband won't it? I don't know. I want Labour to win the election, if | :40:24. | :40:26. | |
that helps Labour win the election then all well and good. You are a | :40:27. | :40:30. | |
sacrificial Lambert? I wouldn't put it like that, we are fighting for | :40:31. | :40:36. | |
every vote in Clacton. No love lost in Tory HQ, they haven't chosen a | :40:37. | :40:40. | |
candidate but they were changing the locks when Newsnight visited, a bit | :40:41. | :40:45. | |
late, this horse has already bolted. Strange though it may sound, there | :40:46. | :40:50. | |
was basically no Tory activity by the seaside, no liberal or Green | :40:51. | :40:55. | |
candidate selected either. Back in London I was able to ask one | :40:56. | :40:59. | |
euro-sceptic minister whether Carswell had been right or indulge | :41:00. | :41:03. | |
gent? I think it is DLEEP counter-productive what he has done. | :41:04. | :41:08. | |
I'm sure the voters in Clacton are seeing what is going on | :41:09. | :41:10. | |
internationally. They want strong and firm Government which is what | :41:11. | :41:13. | |
they have right now. They will be more concerned with the future, the | :41:14. | :41:17. | |
economic security of hard-working families, about jobs, international | :41:18. | :41:26. | |
security. For the next election you have them saying they will vote to | :41:27. | :41:31. | |
go out of Europe, MPs saying that, they are going out? I think it is | :41:32. | :41:36. | |
about the economic future of the country. If we talk about UKIP right | :41:37. | :41:40. | |
now a vote for UKIP is effectively going to lead to a Ed Miliband-led | :41:41. | :41:46. | |
Government. Carswell has up in his UKIP HQ a poster ofdy and Gladstone. | :41:47. | :41:53. | |
The free marketeer won three elections while the then Tory Party | :41:54. | :41:59. | |
was split. Carswell might split it again. There is a full list of | :42:00. | :42:03. | |
candidates for Clacton available on the BBC website. We will return | :42:04. | :42:05. | |
there before the election to speak to the others. The impact of | :42:06. | :42:09. | |
Carswell's defection has reached way beyond the corridors of Westminster | :42:10. | :42:13. | |
or the streets of Clacton. This week resulting in an extraordinary spat | :42:14. | :42:18. | |
over the future of the party on the newspaper columns and blogs of | :42:19. | :42:22. | |
Conservative commentators. Parris pass has been busy predicting a | :42:23. | :42:26. | |
schism in the party. He says it is inevitable and that Carswell and his | :42:27. | :42:30. | |
crew should go to UKIP by all means stay there. Also with us is the | :42:31. | :42:33. | |
prominent backbencher, Bernard Jenkin, a well known euro-sceptic | :42:34. | :42:38. | |
who take as rather different view. Firstly to you matters Matthew | :42:39. | :42:43. | |
Parris, surely the Tory Party can't afford to send a big chunk of its | :42:44. | :42:46. | |
grassroots, Carswell and others and people on the very euro-sceptic or | :42:47. | :42:50. | |
anti-euro wing of the party and just do without their support. They can't | :42:51. | :42:54. | |
afford that can they? It wouldn't be such a big chunk as people might | :42:55. | :42:58. | |
have you believe, but there would be 30 or 40 and they would go. The | :42:59. | :43:04. | |
alternative is that they give the impression of dragging the | :43:05. | :43:07. | |
Conservative Party to the right and if the Conservative Party is | :43:08. | :43:12. | |
reported to have dragged to the right the loss that we would have in | :43:13. | :43:16. | |
the centre, the loss that we would have from floating voters and the | :43:17. | :43:20. | |
loss that many of us would have in what we believe would be | :43:21. | :43:23. | |
incalculable. You say losing 30 MPs wouldn't be a big deal. At the last | :43:24. | :43:27. | |
election the Conservatives didn't even man to get a majority, that is | :43:28. | :43:30. | |
really important isn't it? I don't think 30 MPs are going to cross the | :43:31. | :43:33. | |
floor. I don't think any more MPs are going to cross the floor, but | :43:34. | :43:38. | |
what I do think is the Conservative Party steadfastly and in an | :43:39. | :43:45. | |
unpanicky way needs to project an image of moderation, the moment we | :43:46. | :43:48. | |
stop doing that and start flirting with the right as a party we have | :43:49. | :43:54. | |
lost it. Bernard Jenkin, do you deny that beyond Douglas Carswell and as | :43:55. | :43:59. | |
Matthew would suggest a small group of people there is a genuine | :44:00. | :44:02. | |
disconnect between the leadership and the grassroots? In most parties, | :44:03. | :44:06. | |
particularly parties in Government there is always a tension between | :44:07. | :44:11. | |
the grassroots and the party leadership, because the party | :44:12. | :44:16. | |
leadership's perspective is inevitably different from the | :44:17. | :44:18. | |
grassroots. What is happening here is big. The one thing we are all | :44:19. | :44:22. | |
agreed about, listen to your previous package about the state of | :44:23. | :44:26. | |
the eurozone. The European Union is in a terrible mess and even George | :44:27. | :44:32. | |
Osborne is now saying that the problems of the eurozone are so | :44:33. | :44:36. | |
preoccupying the eurozone they are sidelining the concerns of member | :44:37. | :44:40. | |
states like the United Kingdom. Doesn't that mean the people in your | :44:41. | :44:44. | |
party have to concentrate in making the current relationships work | :44:45. | :44:46. | |
rather than doing what Douglas Carswell has done and walk away from | :44:47. | :44:51. | |
it completely? I have no brief for Douglas Carswell, I believe his | :44:52. | :44:54. | |
action has been catastrophically bad for the country and the things he | :44:55. | :44:57. | |
says he believes in. What is happening in the Conservative Party | :44:58. | :45:00. | |
is we need to modernise our relationship with the European | :45:01. | :45:03. | |
Union. It has always been the case that very often the backbenches have | :45:04. | :45:08. | |
been ahead of where the establishment needs to be and we | :45:09. | :45:11. | |
have seen that in every major development of policy down the ages. | :45:12. | :45:15. | |
Matthew Parris that sounds reasonable to you doesn't it? It is | :45:16. | :45:19. | |
an act of treachery what Carswell has done. I'm not going to start | :45:20. | :45:27. | |
calling names, it is odd, politicians often accused of being | :45:28. | :45:31. | |
uncivil to each other, you are a journalist now Matthew you can throw | :45:32. | :45:36. | |
these brickbats around, I think it is just destructive and silly. You | :45:37. | :45:40. | |
won't describe it as an act of treachery, he has wrapped himself in | :45:41. | :45:43. | |
the Tory colours and elected as a Tory. I think he has made a | :45:44. | :45:48. | |
terrible, terrible error and I'm not defending it, I think he's wrong and | :45:49. | :45:52. | |
I think he will deeply regret what he has done. Will the rest of the | :45:53. | :45:56. | |
party also regret being dragged further to the right and end up in a | :45:57. | :46:00. | |
schism with the party split into two? I think this is a nonsense, | :46:01. | :46:03. | |
most of the country wants a different relationship with the | :46:04. | :46:05. | |
European Union. Most of the Conservative Party wants a different | :46:06. | :46:07. | |
relationship with the European Union. And so does the Prime | :46:08. | :46:12. | |
Minister. And he will try to negotiate that and the result of his | :46:13. | :46:16. | |
negotiation will be put to a referendum. So we have to support | :46:17. | :46:20. | |
him, don't we as Conservatives? We have to hope that's going to win. Do | :46:21. | :46:26. | |
you really hope's going to win the election? I'm rather hurt by that | :46:27. | :46:31. | |
accusation, we have known each other for a great many years but I really | :46:32. | :46:34. | |
want to win this election, I really think it will be a disastrous result | :46:35. | :46:38. | |
for this country if we don't win the election. That is why I'm furious | :46:39. | :46:42. | |
with what Douglas Carswell has done. Isn't the best way. Calling him a | :46:43. | :46:46. | |
traitor isn't the best way. Isn't the best way to bring about what you | :46:47. | :46:49. | |
say you want, which is a resounding victory for David Cameron to support | :46:50. | :46:53. | |
him up to the hilt. I do support him. Up to the hilt. I regularly | :46:54. | :46:58. | |
talk to him and I support him. But the problem we have got is we | :46:59. | :47:02. | |
haven't actually got a policy on what our relationship with the | :47:03. | :47:05. | |
European Union should be, that's a perfectly legitimate argument. Today | :47:06. | :47:10. | |
we had the port services regulation stopped in committee because we | :47:11. | :47:13. | |
couldn't even get the papers that the European Union is discussing | :47:14. | :47:16. | |
that we're meant to be scrutinising on the port services. It will cost | :47:17. | :47:20. | |
hundreds of thousands of jobs in this country, the unions and | :47:21. | :47:25. | |
industry against the directive, this is a mad way to legislate. We have a | :47:26. | :47:29. | |
good flavour of the debate inside the same party that you support. | :47:30. | :47:33. | |
Thank you both for coming in. That is it for tonight. Do you remember | :47:34. | :47:41. | |
John Redwood's mimed Welsh National anthem, the US Ambassador to the UK | :47:42. | :47:46. | |
has tried to learn the language ahead of the summit in Newport. He | :47:47. | :47:50. | |
has bravely published this video about how he has got on. Take a | :47:51. | :47:58. | |
look, and good night. Hello, how was that. A longer "o". But just one | :47:59. | :48:13. | |
"l". Hello (in an accent) I forgot it. (Speaks Welsh). All Welch people | :48:14. | :48:46. | |
say z-e-eta we would say Z-a-t-a. Good evening a check on the weather | :48:47. | :48:58. | |
for Thursday, to be honest for a lot of us Thursday is going to be | :48:59. | :49:01. | |
similar to what we had on | :49:02. | :49:02. |