Browse content similar to 17/09/2014. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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It's over. So should Scotland become an independent country? Tomorrow | :00:00. | :00:15. | |
Scotland decides. The only answer for Scotland's sake, and for | :00:16. | :00:23. | |
Scotland's future, is vote no. Don't let them tell us we can't. | :00:24. | :00:33. | |
Let's do this now. For me it will go up to the wire, it will be right in | :00:34. | :00:39. | |
the ballot booth with the paper in front of me. I change my mind on an | :00:40. | :00:47. | |
hourly basis. Here we have Scotland's most precious natural | :00:48. | :00:52. | |
resource, the undecided voter, what will they hear tonight to swing it. | :00:53. | :01:01. | |
Hello and good evening. After two years, endless speeches and copious | :01:02. | :01:05. | |
column inch, you would think it is all done, but incredibly this | :01:06. | :01:09. | |
referendum now rests in the hands of a mere 300,000 or so people, the one | :01:10. | :01:12. | |
who is still haven't made their mind up. They are a coveted commodity, we | :01:13. | :01:18. | |
have three of them here in Glasgow tonight, all registered to vote, | :01:19. | :01:22. | |
tonight they will hear the arguments of the big beasts and the layman, | :01:23. | :01:26. | |
and by the time the show is over we will ask them if they know which way | :01:27. | :01:30. | |
they will go. I took Anne-Marie, a school teacher into the centre of | :01:31. | :01:34. | |
Glasgow, she's still undecided as to how to place her vote tomorrow. | :01:35. | :01:42. | |
For me it is right up to the wire, right in the ballot booth with the | :01:43. | :01:45. | |
paper in front of me. I'm still changing my mind on an hourly basis. | :01:46. | :01:51. | |
Why has it been so hard? Because new things come to light. We have had | :01:52. | :01:54. | |
the revelation that these companies might be moving out of Scotland, | :01:55. | :01:59. | |
about we don't know what currency we are going to use, it is such a | :02:00. | :02:02. | |
momentous decision to make, I want to make the right choice for my | :02:03. | :02:08. | |
family and my family. If it was my heart I would vote for, I would make | :02:09. | :02:13. | |
a yes vote, because I believe that Scottish people have the | :02:14. | :02:15. | |
intelligence and the power and the wit to be able to control their own | :02:16. | :02:20. | |
finances, but by the same token I don't think all the information that | :02:21. | :02:22. | |
we should have to make that informed choice has been given to us. | :02:23. | :02:27. | |
If you walk around the streets of Glasgow you will see more signs for | :02:28. | :02:31. | |
yes, you will definitely see more people standing outside of stores, | :02:32. | :02:34. | |
as we did at the weekend, that were actively trying to get our vote as | :02:35. | :02:37. | |
yes. And there wasn't so much negativity. I haven't seen any no. I | :02:38. | :02:41. | |
would have liked to have had their viewpoint as well. It hasn't | :02:42. | :02:44. | |
happened. As we stand here, tonight, the eve | :02:45. | :02:48. | |
of polling day, you genuinely don't know where you are going to put your | :02:49. | :02:52. | |
cross tomorrow? I genuinely don't know. I think I will need to hear | :02:53. | :02:55. | |
the rest of the argument tonight, sleepen to and tomorrow morning, | :02:56. | :02:59. | |
when I go in that booth it will be a very personal one-on-one decision. | :03:00. | :03:12. | |
Anne-Marie is with us and a couple of other undecides, Lindsay you | :03:13. | :03:15. | |
heard the thoughts there, why has it been so hard? It has been immensely | :03:16. | :03:20. | |
difficult, it is an emotive issue and a lot of people might have | :03:21. | :03:26. | |
in-built hunch about which way they might be voting but there is a lot | :03:27. | :03:29. | |
of important information out there that I think people have a duty to | :03:30. | :03:31. | |
consider. So it is a lot to A lot of it is just going out and | :03:32. | :03:49. | |
talking to people on the street, that is the most positive thing, | :03:50. | :03:53. | |
people are talking to you on the street and in the shops and that is | :03:54. | :03:57. | |
great. We have the noes on this side and the yeses on this side, with the | :03:58. | :04:01. | |
greatest respect they are looking at you and saying Jason, when are you | :04:02. | :04:05. | |
going to do it, what will change it? Well, if I can hear one concise and | :04:06. | :04:11. | |
definitive argument either way I could be swayed. I have said I'm | :04:12. | :04:16. | |
swaying more to my left on to the yes side, but right now it has been | :04:17. | :04:20. | |
for every argument on either side there has been another trumping it | :04:21. | :04:25. | |
on the other. For the longest time I was a staunch no, because I work in | :04:26. | :04:28. | |
finance and I was afraid that if I did vote for an independent Scotland | :04:29. | :04:32. | |
I wouldn't get to live in it and I would have to move down south. But | :04:33. | :04:37. | |
for me that is eroded by the fact that the Scottish people should be | :04:38. | :04:41. | |
deciding their own fate. Let me just see a show of hands, who here has | :04:42. | :04:45. | |
come to their decision in the last month? What was it, was it one | :04:46. | :04:55. | |
thing, a combination of things? I think it was several factors | :04:56. | :05:01. | |
throughout the country. There has been some aspects with my friends | :05:02. | :05:06. | |
and family, but I think more on a personal level. The First Minister I | :05:07. | :05:12. | |
feel his arguments have been a bit wavering but solid in the most. I | :05:13. | :05:18. | |
feel he's very clear and concise as to what his view for the future of | :05:19. | :05:22. | |
Scotland is. Granted it may take a while to achieve, but I feel if we | :05:23. | :05:28. | |
give him a chance it would happen. And has anyone gone against their | :05:29. | :05:34. | |
families' wishes to sit on the side of the room that they are? I'm | :05:35. | :05:38. | |
definitely voting no and my mother is voting yes. Cathy we will hear | :05:39. | :05:44. | |
from her in a second. Was that difficult? Very difficult, there was | :05:45. | :05:50. | |
a few words crossed in the car on the journey here tonight. But | :05:51. | :05:53. | |
afterwards we will both do our best for the people of Scotland. Cathy we | :05:54. | :05:57. | |
can't let that one go, what did you say to him? I'm trying to keep calm. | :05:58. | :06:05. | |
But I really think it is wonderful that we have different points of | :06:06. | :06:09. | |
view. But having said that Gary knows that I have been an | :06:10. | :06:14. | |
antipoverty campaigner for the past 30 years, and I have both | :06:15. | :06:21. | |
experienced and witnessed human suffering and hardship on a scale I | :06:22. | :06:26. | |
never thought I would ever see it in my lifetime. Except perhaps in times | :06:27. | :06:34. | |
of war. And let me finish, during that set of years since the time of | :06:35. | :06:45. | |
Thatcher, I have seen successive Governments turning their | :06:46. | :06:48. | |
parliamentary so called democracy and so called management of the | :06:49. | :06:51. | |
institution to service the rich and all their cronies. There is a lot of | :06:52. | :06:56. | |
nodding heads here. (Applause) we will come back to some of those | :06:57. | :07:00. | |
points. Thank you very much indeed. There are some still clearly hungry | :07:01. | :07:04. | |
to hear more. For others tomorrow can't come soon enough. We followed | :07:05. | :07:08. | |
the last day of the campaign here in Glasgow. | :07:09. | :07:20. | |
Hopes and fears but the talking is finally done. Yet the decision is | :07:21. | :07:28. | |
still to make. Every handshake can mean something. Every snap of this | :07:29. | :07:34. | |
moment when everything might change. This is it, the last push for this | :07:35. | :07:38. | |
man and these people's dreams, but still with just a few hours before | :07:39. | :07:43. | |
the polling stations open, there are still thousands of undecided voters | :07:44. | :07:49. | |
around the country. And the case for independence has | :07:50. | :07:53. | |
been put in places where politicians have hardly gone for so long. Here | :07:54. | :07:58. | |
on the edge of Glasgow there are still votes to be won. I'm still | :07:59. | :08:04. | |
undecided yet. I will decide tomorrow. A lot of traditional | :08:05. | :08:10. | |
Labour Party supporters like myself that feel that they forgot about us | :08:11. | :08:14. | |
and abandoned us, since Tony Blair got in, it is so hard to | :08:15. | :08:17. | |
differentiate the policies between the Tories and the Labour Party, I | :08:18. | :08:21. | |
don't support the SNP, I don't like the SNP but it is a protest the | :08:22. | :08:27. | |
Labour Party have done nothing for us. It never mattered until | :08:28. | :08:31. | |
recently, seeing the possibility of going independent and doing things | :08:32. | :08:34. | |
totally differently is what has made a lot of people really passionate. | :08:35. | :08:41. | |
My family worry about it. You are worried about them? In case they get | :08:42. | :08:45. | |
their own way. There is no coming back. But alongside new belief and | :08:46. | :08:50. | |
disillusion, thoughts of a new country have stirred old divides. I | :08:51. | :08:58. | |
think it is extremist views that are rooted in history that isn't | :08:59. | :09:02. | |
necessary rooted in a present or a future. That's been a challenge to | :09:03. | :09:05. | |
be around those conversations that are about what we have been or what | :09:06. | :09:09. | |
happened a long time ago rather than who we are now and what we're moving | :09:10. | :09:14. | |
towards. I think in the last couple of years things have increased on an | :09:15. | :09:24. | |
anxiety level and worrying about the change impacting their family. You | :09:25. | :09:27. | |
are going for Better Together, wonderful news. In Aberdeen the | :09:28. | :09:34. | |
last-minute scramble is real. New volunteers still coming forward for | :09:35. | :09:38. | |
no. Even on a free period from school. I first got involved 10-12 | :09:39. | :09:45. | |
days ago, you know when the polls looked close. Please welcome the one | :09:46. | :09:50. | |
and only Gordon Brown. Their campaign has in the last few days | :09:51. | :09:54. | |
found a new hero, Gordon Brown rediscovering his strongest voice. | :09:55. | :10:02. | |
Could this be the appeal that wins undecided around. Let us tell the | :10:03. | :10:09. | |
NAILSs nationalists, this is not their country, their polls their | :10:10. | :10:14. | |
streets, this is everyone's culture, everyone's country and everyone's | :10:15. | :10:19. | |
streets. But independence campaigners have already travelled | :10:20. | :10:23. | |
further than their opponents ever imagined, whether in the central | :10:24. | :10:26. | |
belt, towns or streets, or the farms of Perthshire. I can taste it, I can | :10:27. | :10:35. | |
genuinely taste it. It is wafer thin, it is absolutely every single | :10:36. | :10:40. | |
vote will count. And I can feel it, there is a mood in Scotland that I | :10:41. | :10:49. | |
have never felt. I have been a yes vote, we are going to need to take | :10:50. | :10:54. | |
the real struggle forward and that will be on the no side. Further can | :10:55. | :10:59. | |
mean fury, tomorrow Scots will decide. But this political enner | :11:00. | :11:04. | |
ghee, can you almost touch might not find an easy home. Ergy, can | :11:05. | :11:15. | |
We speak to Tom Hunter, the first ever Scottish billion hair, and the | :11:16. | :11:26. | |
presenter of Coast, Neil Oliver. You have some sympathy with the | :11:27. | :11:37. | |
undeciders? I have total sympathy, because when the referendum was | :11:38. | :11:40. | |
announced we decided it was far too an important decision to leave to | :11:41. | :11:43. | |
the politicians alone to inform us. Therefore we went round the world, | :11:44. | :11:47. | |
got the biggest brains, with no side in this decide, and made it | :11:48. | :11:52. | |
available to the voters of Scotland to say we are not trying to convince | :11:53. | :11:56. | |
you to vote the way I'm voting, I'm not trying to convince you of my | :11:57. | :12:07. | |
point of view, I'm trying to say here are some facts, no spin, you | :12:08. | :12:12. | |
make up your own mind. You wield a lot of influence in this country, | :12:13. | :12:18. | |
once you knew which way you wanted to go, didn't you want to sway | :12:19. | :12:24. | |
people? No, I have a vote same as everyone else, that weighed heavy on | :12:25. | :12:27. | |
my shoulders and I'm not saying. Who thinks they voted with their heart, | :12:28. | :12:33. | |
go on? For me it is quite simple, the decision we have to make some is | :12:34. | :12:38. | |
about who gets to make the choices as to how Scotland is run. And it | :12:39. | :12:42. | |
should be the people who live and work in Scotland. It was never about | :12:43. | :12:46. | |
particular policies or anything of that sort, it is who gets to make | :12:47. | :12:50. | |
the choice? Did you look at the fine print, did you look at the detail | :12:51. | :12:54. | |
and read it all? Absolutely I went to a meeting this week and I was in | :12:55. | :13:00. | |
the presence Professor Ronald McDonald, an economist, Google him | :13:01. | :13:05. | |
if you haven't heard of him. From Glasgow University and he spelt out | :13:06. | :13:12. | |
clearly as an academic not a politician what is at stake for this | :13:13. | :13:17. | |
clearly as an academic not a sawn off barrel of a | :13:18. | :13:18. | |
clearly as an academic not a economic disaster if this goes | :13:19. | :13:22. | |
wrong. We will have a brain drain, and a flight of the able leaving the | :13:23. | :13:26. | |
rest of us behind and that worries me, that wasn't a politician. | :13:27. | :13:32. | |
(Applause) The language has been very passionate from both sides. Do | :13:33. | :13:36. | |
you think this has been a rational decision for you, an emotional one? | :13:37. | :13:41. | |
I'm not a political animal at all, and I will be honest with you and | :13:42. | :13:45. | |
say that the economic arguments I'm completely confounded by. Because | :13:46. | :13:48. | |
every question that's asked receives two completely different and often | :13:49. | :13:53. | |
completely contrasting answers. And for me, it has always been a simple | :13:54. | :13:59. | |
question. I find that the offering from the yes camp is un-Scottish to | :14:00. | :14:06. | |
me. In that it jars with my sense of what Scotland was, the Scotland I | :14:07. | :14:12. | |
grew up in. I say that because my work has taken me around a lot of | :14:13. | :14:15. | |
Britain, I have spent a lot of time travelling around | :14:16. | :14:18. | |
Britain, I have spent a lot of time again and again. And I'm as offended | :14:19. | :14:21. | |
by the thought of a family dependant on a foodbank in Bradford as I am of | :14:22. | :14:27. | |
a family dependant on a foodbank in Glasgow. And I'm horrified and | :14:28. | :14:33. | |
ashamed by the thought any of child going to bed cold and hungry, be it | :14:34. | :14:41. | |
Plymouth, Cardiff or Elgin. I find it difficult to see any nobility in | :14:42. | :14:44. | |
turning our backs on large part of our family, our family of nations | :14:45. | :14:49. | |
and saying well we can make it good for ourselves, and the other people | :14:50. | :14:54. | |
will be left behind. I find that jars with what I was brought up to | :14:55. | :14:58. | |
believe as a Scot. There is a lot of shaking heads in this corner, we | :14:59. | :15:02. | |
will come to you in a second. Fiona you have been called un-Scottish for | :15:03. | :15:06. | |
voting yes? Not that I have done it yet. I think the other way of | :15:07. | :15:11. | |
looking at it is surely there is no doubt the fact that Scotland has had | :15:12. | :15:15. | |
this discussion and the run up to the referendum has meant that | :15:16. | :15:18. | |
England is now starting to wake up to the fact that they need to sort | :15:19. | :15:22. | |
themselves out, they haven't got a parliament, why don't they have a | :15:23. | :15:24. | |
parliament. There is something very true in what you say in that for a | :15:25. | :15:28. | |
long time, for generations really there has been a decline in people | :15:29. | :15:31. | |
having a sense of the value of their vote, and if this referendum has | :15:32. | :15:34. | |
done anything it has been to prove that every single vote counts and | :15:35. | :15:39. | |
the vote is a very powerful gift, a very powerful privilege. There is no | :15:40. | :15:42. | |
doubting that, if 97% of the electorate in Scotland who are | :15:43. | :15:45. | |
eligible to vote have signed up to vote and if they do vote that will | :15:46. | :15:50. | |
be the biggest turnout since the Second World War. The problems of | :15:51. | :15:54. | |
Britain, we all agree there are problems Britain-wide, there are | :15:55. | :15:57. | |
things that need to be fixed and poverty that needs to be addressed | :15:58. | :16:01. | |
and opportunities not taken. If 97% of the UK population sign up and | :16:02. | :16:04. | |
vote and take part in debate, we can fix Britain. And Scotland used to | :16:05. | :16:14. | |
be... (applause) Let's hear from the yes people, who thinks Scotland has | :16:15. | :16:18. | |
been change bid this, whatever the outcome? Scotland has been changed | :16:19. | :16:34. | |
you can see it everywhereywhere. I'm disappointed in you, I love your | :16:35. | :16:38. | |
programme, I don't know if you have lived in the Scottish townships or | :16:39. | :16:44. | |
the food banks, I think you should go there, for the past 50 years, I'm | :16:45. | :16:52. | |
just officially a pensioner, I have lived around here for 60 years. I'm | :16:53. | :16:56. | |
not being rude, I need to bring other voices. Billy you want to make | :16:57. | :17:00. | |
a point, and then we will come back to the panel as well. | :17:01. | :17:04. | |
Absolutely, I don't believe by becoming independent we are turning | :17:05. | :17:09. | |
our backs on anyone (applause) because the simple fact of the | :17:10. | :17:11. | |
matter is that Britain still wants to rule the world. Scotland wants to | :17:12. | :17:17. | |
lead the world. And we can and we have done. Many times. Earlier Laura | :17:18. | :17:23. | |
Kuensberg caught up with a man who more than anyone else has brought | :17:24. | :17:27. | |
the union to the edge of this historic moment, Alex Salmond, she | :17:28. | :17:31. | |
began by asking him about how the divisions opened up in Scottish | :17:32. | :17:35. | |
society and how they would be healed? Are you concerned about the | :17:36. | :17:40. | |
passion on both sides creating divisions, and we have spoken to | :17:41. | :17:45. | |
many voters on both sides who are extremely worried about what might | :17:46. | :17:48. | |
happen on Friday. I tell you what, this is the most empowering, | :17:49. | :17:53. | |
enlivening, democratic participation I have ever seen in Scottish | :17:54. | :17:56. | |
politics and UK politics, probably in the west of Europe. It is a | :17:57. | :17:59. | |
fantastic wonderful debate. You will always get a few idiots on either | :18:00. | :18:03. | |
side. For many ordinary people it is more than a few idiots it is real | :18:04. | :18:07. | |
concerns about division? I was going to finish the point, it was one or | :18:08. | :18:11. | |
two people on either side will always have bad behaviour, that has | :18:12. | :18:19. | |
to be condemned on or offline. Let's remember 99% of those participating | :18:20. | :18:23. | |
in the campaign are behaving impeccable. Let's understand when | :18:24. | :18:28. | |
you have democratic participation and people queueing to register to | :18:29. | :18:30. | |
vote, to take interest in the political process for the first time | :18:31. | :18:34. | |
in their lives, this is a wonderful, empowering thing. It is a | :18:35. | :18:37. | |
celebration of democracy, we're going to have on Thursday and on | :18:38. | :18:44. | |
Friday there stops being a no or yes campaign, there will be one | :18:45. | :18:49. | |
campaign, Team Scotland, I as First Minister will draw that together, it | :18:50. | :18:52. | |
is Team Scotland going forward. That not with standing, there are many | :18:53. | :18:56. | |
ordinary people we have spoken to, many of whom participating in | :18:57. | :18:59. | |
politics for the first time, which has to be a positive, who are | :19:00. | :19:02. | |
worried about their communities being divided. There is a high | :19:03. | :19:06. | |
anxiety level in many places? There is a discussion and a debate, a | :19:07. | :19:09. | |
wonderful debate taking place in Scotland. But everybody of course | :19:10. | :19:13. | |
will accept the result. That is what democracy is about, then we will | :19:14. | :19:16. | |
move forward. If you ask people, look, the day after this, do we stop | :19:17. | :19:22. | |
being the yes and no camp and only a Team Scotland, they will say | :19:23. | :19:25. | |
absolutely, as First Minister I have a responsibility to draw that | :19:26. | :19:32. | |
together. I was delighted when Alastair Carmichael that he would | :19:33. | :19:36. | |
see it his obligation for resigning as Scottish Secretary and joining | :19:37. | :19:43. | |
the camp. In victory magnaminty, that will draw us together and will | :19:44. | :19:47. | |
succeed. You and colleagues have said repeatedly that this is about | :19:48. | :19:51. | |
Scotland getting the Government they chose rather than one imposed on | :19:52. | :20:03. | |
them. After the last 17 years, for the last 13 Scotland voted Labour | :20:04. | :20:08. | |
and got Labour. Are you not creating a false premise that Scotland | :20:09. | :20:12. | |
doesn't get what they vote for. I'm 59 years old, so older than you, I | :20:13. | :20:17. | |
don't look it I know. For more than half of my 59 years Scotland has | :20:18. | :20:22. | |
voted in one direction and a Tory Prime Minister is imposed upon us. | :20:23. | :20:26. | |
If we take that sweep of 59 years and a reasonable amount of time. | :20:27. | :20:29. | |
That is the democratic process. It is not the democratic process in | :20:30. | :20:32. | |
Scotland. It is not democratic to have a situation where we have one | :20:33. | :20:35. | |
member of parliament, David Cameron, is the Tory Prime Minister. For 13 | :20:36. | :20:40. | |
out of the last 17 years Scotland has had who they have chance. If you | :20:41. | :20:45. | |
go out in Scotland and ask the vast number of people if they think it is | :20:46. | :20:49. | |
democratically acceptable to have story Governments in London and one | :20:50. | :20:52. | |
MP in Scotland they will say no it is not. One of the big motivations | :20:53. | :20:58. | |
in the yes vote, particularly among Labour people who normally | :20:59. | :21:00. | |
in the yes vote, particularly among the Labour Party, this is definite, | :21:01. | :21:02. | |
in each and every election in an independent Scotland that Scotland | :21:03. | :21:05. | |
will have the Government that we vote for, not the Government that we | :21:06. | :21:16. | |
vote for not anything else. Are you looking forward to it? This is a | :21:17. | :21:22. | |
once-in-a-lifetime opportunity, and I have absolute confidence tomorrow. | :21:23. | :21:28. | |
The reason I say it is once-in-a-lifetime opportunity, as | :21:29. | :21:31. | |
we know Mr Cameron only agreed it because they shout thought they were | :21:32. | :21:39. | |
a shoe-in for a no vote. That is why it is a once-in-a-lifetime | :21:40. | :21:42. | |
opportunity to take Scotland's future into Scotland's hands. Thank | :21:43. | :21:44. | |
you very much indeed. Great pleasure. | :21:45. | :21:48. | |
Alex Salmond during the course of this campaign. Lindsay, does he do | :21:49. | :21:52. | |
it for you, he is push or pull factor when you listen to him? For | :21:53. | :21:56. | |
me the debate isn't about Alex Salmond and I think a lot of the | :21:57. | :22:00. | |
focus on Alex Salmond has been a bit of day version tactic. (Applause) | :22:01. | :22:05. | |
and the yes campaign is a lot broader to me, you know, than just | :22:06. | :22:13. | |
Alex Salmond. It incorporates the Greens, the National Collective, | :22:14. | :22:16. | |
Women for Independent, English Scots for Independence. For me it is not | :22:17. | :22:20. | |
about Alex Salmond, for me the most exciting thing is the possibility of | :22:21. | :22:29. | |
having equal equality and human rights through there, and I wonder | :22:30. | :22:35. | |
about that in Westminster where the three parties are indistinguishable | :22:36. | :22:38. | |
and untrustworthy. You don't like Alex Salmond do you? You are voting | :22:39. | :22:43. | |
yes? When I was first making my decisions you know I couldn't avoid | :22:44. | :22:48. | |
it, I couldn't you know extract the image of Alex Salmond from you know, | :22:49. | :22:53. | |
if you have reached a point in this campaign where you think it is an | :22:54. | :23:02. | |
opportunity whether you have to pledge allegiance to nationalism or | :23:03. | :23:05. | |
Alex Salmond you have missed the points. It is people like Patrick | :23:06. | :23:10. | |
Harvey and Russell Brand who have more influence in this debate. | :23:11. | :23:16. | |
Politicians don't represent us, working people, they represent | :23:17. | :23:18. | |
millionaires. We have heard from Gordon Brown | :23:19. | :23:22. | |
suddenly in the last ten days, has that been a factor? Since you | :23:23. | :23:26. | |
mentioned Alex Salmond and whether or not you like him, what I would | :23:27. | :23:30. | |
like to mention is that he keeps talking about our children, our | :23:31. | :23:38. | |
future, Alex Salmond doesn't have any children, Nicola Sturgeon | :23:39. | :23:41. | |
doesn't have children, how can they talk about kids when they don't have | :23:42. | :23:45. | |
any, how can they talk about kids' futures when they don't have any, | :23:46. | :23:49. | |
they are not parents. How can they talk about that. Alex Salmond is on | :23:50. | :23:59. | |
an ego trip, and at the moment they are putting generators in the | :24:00. | :24:03. | |
governor's house in Edinburgh because he plans to be King Salmond | :24:04. | :24:09. | |
in his house. You have heard from Gordon Brown this week as well, has | :24:10. | :24:14. | |
he stirred things up for you, has it been good? I have been very | :24:15. | :24:16. | |
impressed with Gordon Brown this week with what he said. I would like | :24:17. | :24:20. | |
to put it in a simplistic term, when you go to buy a house, the house | :24:21. | :24:24. | |
developer will offer you every incentive possible to buy it, but at | :24:25. | :24:28. | |
the end of it there is one golden rule, if you don't keep up your | :24:29. | :24:32. | |
mortgage payments the house gets repossessed. From what I have heard | :24:33. | :24:36. | |
from Alex Salmond is one thing, we will all be holding hands on Friday | :24:37. | :24:39. | |
and walking into the sunset and he's not in any shape or form talking | :24:40. | :24:43. | |
about any negative that is will come at from it. Alex Salmond whichever | :24:44. | :24:47. | |
way you look at it is no different from any other Westminster MP, and | :24:48. | :24:50. | |
until people actually realise that we're going down the river. | :24:51. | :24:56. | |
(Applause) But the accusation he's tried to be a visionary, he has been | :24:57. | :25:01. | |
unrealistic and he hasn't actually told you the truth. No, no. He's a | :25:02. | :25:09. | |
good politician. Just one voice please. You in the cream shirt. I | :25:10. | :25:16. | |
have got a question for the panel here, and for everyone else, this | :25:17. | :25:22. | |
referendum in the last week or so it has all been about change, up until | :25:23. | :25:28. | |
a week or ten days ago there was only one side talking about change | :25:29. | :25:31. | |
and now fair dos it is all about change. What I would like to say is | :25:32. | :25:38. | |
the UK economy is based 78% on the service industry, the majority of | :25:39. | :25:42. | |
the service industry is the financial sector, and as far as I | :25:43. | :25:45. | |
know, maybe the historians will correct me, but money lending has | :25:46. | :25:49. | |
been around since Jesus was a boy, so what is progressive about it and | :25:50. | :25:54. | |
what's new when the rest of the world is looking about creating | :25:55. | :25:58. | |
knowledge-based economies. You have taken us into a very important next | :25:59. | :26:02. | |
step and we're going to hear from Tom and we will hear from our | :26:03. | :26:05. | |
historians as well on the economic questions, because they have really | :26:06. | :26:10. | |
dominated the campaign. The no camp have questioned how sustainable an | :26:11. | :26:13. | |
independent Scotland would be, whilst the yes side believes that | :26:14. | :26:16. | |
freed from Westminster Scotland could flourish. So who is right? | :26:17. | :26:20. | |
Chris Cook and Duncan Weldon have been looking into this. | :26:21. | :26:31. | |
Why are we here? Well this is the best possible | :26:32. | :26:35. | |
place, Edinburgh Castle to talk about Scotland, the union and fiscal | :26:36. | :26:40. | |
policy. Back in 1707 at the Act of Union, part of the deal was England | :26:41. | :26:45. | |
sent Scotland ?398,000, that is about ?7 billion in today's money as | :26:46. | :26:52. | |
part of the deal. As a sweetener. Sorry Chris I zoned out, thought it | :26:53. | :26:55. | |
was an economics report not history lecture. We can bring it up to date | :26:56. | :26:59. | |
if I ask you one big question. It is fair to say that the campaign has | :27:00. | :27:03. | |
been a lot more heat than light when it comes to economic, how is this | :27:04. | :27:06. | |
for a question, if I put you in charge of the yes campaign, how | :27:07. | :27:10. | |
would you make the case for economic independence. I wouldn't start from | :27:11. | :27:21. | |
here. If I was making the economic case for yes I would start here, | :27:22. | :27:27. | |
look at these bridge, amazing infrastructure, just across there | :27:28. | :27:30. | |
you have a modern, high-tech shipyard. What this place says to | :27:31. | :27:37. | |
me, there is more to Scotland than this caricature of offshore oil and | :27:38. | :27:43. | |
a few major dodgy banks. You have high-value whiskey exports, tourism, | :27:44. | :27:47. | |
modern services. What is often not appreciated, particularly in England | :27:48. | :27:50. | |
is, at the moment in terms of economic output per head and | :27:51. | :27:54. | |
national wealth, Scotland is the third-richest part of the UK. Only | :27:55. | :27:57. | |
London and the south-east of England are ahead in terms of economic | :27:58. | :28:01. | |
output. This is a strong base in which to launch an independent | :28:02. | :28:05. | |
economy. OK, all right, but how would an independent Scotland's | :28:06. | :28:09. | |
fiscal position look? I was almost hoping you wouldn't ask for the | :28:10. | :28:12. | |
fiscal position. It wouldn't look great. But Scotland at the moment of | :28:13. | :28:16. | |
independence, yeah they would have a large budget deficit, but, and this | :28:17. | :28:20. | |
is pretty crucial, it would be smaller than the current UK deficit? | :28:21. | :28:33. | |
Right, but that's now. So if I were put in charge of the no campaign | :28:34. | :28:46. | |
which, I appreciate for a bloke from purelily from Purley is pretty | :28:47. | :28:54. | |
unlikely. Scotland is reliant on the oil wealth but it is in decline. And | :28:55. | :28:58. | |
its health and wealth expenditure will have to rise faster, the IFS | :28:59. | :29:02. | |
thinks the line has crossed, Scotland has a worse fiscal position | :29:03. | :29:09. | |
by 2017, and by 2021 Scotland has to engage in an austerity drive to keep | :29:10. | :29:14. | |
stable. We are talking about 8p on income tax, or if you prefer 7p on | :29:15. | :29:18. | |
VAT. So everyone will have tough choices to make in the years to | :29:19. | :29:21. | |
come. Including the rest of the UK. But in Scotland those choices are | :29:22. | :29:25. | |
much harder. We are talking about bone-crushing tightness. Thank you | :29:26. | :29:30. | |
Dr Doom. The Institute of Fiscal Studies, they are well respected but | :29:31. | :29:33. | |
not infallible. You know as well as I do that any economic forecast is | :29:34. | :29:40. | |
basically an educated guess. On the demographics nobody says Scotland | :29:41. | :29:43. | |
doesn't face a head wind, but it is not just about how many workers you | :29:44. | :29:47. | |
have it is how productive workers are. If Scotland can find way to | :29:48. | :29:52. | |
boost productivity, that problem looks less pressing. Every | :29:53. | :29:56. | |
Government wants to boost productivity, what will Scotland do | :29:57. | :29:59. | |
that it can't do now? That is interesting, at the moment the | :30:00. | :30:01. | |
Government in Westminster and the opposition in Westminster they are | :30:02. | :30:05. | |
coming to consensus about increasing productivity and pushing powers down | :30:06. | :30:09. | |
to a local level and building northern powerhouse, if that is how | :30:10. | :30:13. | |
you boost the economy, that is just an argument for independence. The | :30:14. | :30:23. | |
other thing is Scotland would be a small, open economy, it could be | :30:24. | :30:26. | |
more flexible taking advantage of opportunities, look at Ireland which | :30:27. | :30:30. | |
slashed corporation tax down and attracted in big business it did a | :30:31. | :30:33. | |
lot of good there. Ireland shows if you are a small economy you can be | :30:34. | :30:38. | |
exposed to big international forces. We haven't spoken about things that | :30:39. | :30:41. | |
Scotland has no control over, for example, it wants to join the | :30:42. | :30:44. | |
European Union, great, fine, but the Spanish Government thinks it might | :30:45. | :30:47. | |
take five years for them to get full membership again. Also remember the | :30:48. | :30:50. | |
currency, we haven't even talked about that. Remember if they don't | :30:51. | :30:54. | |
get currency union with London and London says they won't give it to | :30:55. | :30:57. | |
them that they may have to run up big surplus so they can use | :30:58. | :31:01. | |
sterling. Yeah, but it is no-one's interest for a newly independent | :31:02. | :31:05. | |
Scotland's economy to fail. It is also not in Scottish interests to be | :31:06. | :31:08. | |
relying on the kindness of strangers. Still it doesn't really | :31:09. | :31:12. | |
feel as though there is a sort of killer single knockout argument on | :31:13. | :31:15. | |
either side on the economics of all of this. But that's true, but on the | :31:16. | :31:19. | |
other hand is it a good idea to be relying on the kindness of | :31:20. | :31:23. | |
strangers? It doesn't feel to me as though there has been a big knockout | :31:24. | :31:28. | |
argument either way in all of this. But I assume there won't be many | :31:29. | :31:33. | |
people just voting on what it will do to GDP and the fiscal balance. | :31:34. | :31:39. | |
Not people look back at India and say could the economy have grown | :31:40. | :31:46. | |
faster without it. Our economics supremos for one night only Duncan | :31:47. | :31:51. | |
and Chris in the same piece. With us Tom Hunter and historians Neil | :31:52. | :31:56. | |
Oliver and Fiona Watson. Tom you have a lot of experience globally | :31:57. | :32:01. | |
around the world, when you think of Scotland as an independent identity, | :32:02. | :32:03. | |
could it flourish, does small matter? Of course Scotland could | :32:04. | :32:09. | |
flourish. The question is should Scotland go independent? Not could. | :32:10. | :32:14. | |
It definitely could. But should it? We have heard a lot tonight about | :32:15. | :32:20. | |
Scotland being this civil and just society. And I'm slightly worried | :32:21. | :32:24. | |
that one side is trying to take that. I haven't met anybody who | :32:25. | :32:29. | |
doesn't believe in a civil and just society. Taking care of those who | :32:30. | :32:34. | |
can't take care of themselves. (Applause) the fact of the matter | :32:35. | :32:38. | |
is, and we have poverty campaigners here, and yes I have been to Easter | :32:39. | :32:43. | |
House and looked at the food banks and I'm really ashamed that in this | :32:44. | :32:47. | |
home, the place that I call home, we have food banks where we're told | :32:48. | :32:51. | |
we're this rich nation but we have food banks. That is a disgrace. It | :32:52. | :32:56. | |
is an absolute disgrace. But the only way we pay for this and this is | :32:57. | :33:02. | |
something that is absolutely crucial is that Governments don't have | :33:03. | :33:07. | |
money. Governments spend money. The only way we pay for a civil and just | :33:08. | :33:12. | |
society is businesses flourishing, paying their taxes, employing | :33:13. | :33:16. | |
people, et cetera, that is the only way it happens. Applause. Let me go | :33:17. | :33:23. | |
to Fiona. Implicit in that is an idea that you can't just be | :33:24. | :33:27. | |
emotional about this, you have got to be a realist. And Scotland could | :33:28. | :33:36. | |
suffer on its own. Neil when you are talking about the economic, one | :33:37. | :33:39. | |
person says this and one says that, all I can see from my perspective as | :33:40. | :33:46. | |
a medieval Scottish historian for most of Scottish history we have | :33:47. | :33:52. | |
punched above our weight, we have an incredible resource, not just the | :33:53. | :33:59. | |
physical assets but the people resources. But the issues in Panama | :34:00. | :34:05. | |
the union was created after it went so wrong. Scotland was in a position | :34:06. | :34:10. | |
where its king was the king of England and when William of Orange | :34:11. | :34:15. | |
was here he represented the interests of the East India Company, | :34:16. | :34:19. | |
it is like having Tesco's, Sainsbury's and Morrisons run with | :34:20. | :34:24. | |
one head. Don't you believe you are being a bit 19th century saying we | :34:25. | :34:30. | |
have to have this union, this Great Britain to survive? I don't think it | :34:31. | :34:37. | |
is 19th century, I think bizarrely when the parliament's unified, when | :34:38. | :34:42. | |
the kingdom was unified a century before that, it was an incredibly | :34:43. | :34:46. | |
modern step. We were in the business of take ago -- taking away borders | :34:47. | :34:55. | |
and to be back in a position of drawing lines on maps is more of | :34:56. | :35:08. | |
backward step. I think we have already demonstrably had problems | :35:09. | :35:12. | |
with the union, and the referendum has energised that. Scotland built | :35:13. | :35:16. | |
the world, the gentleman said we should lead the world not rule the | :35:17. | :35:21. | |
world. That is Scotland's talent. If we have the tools then we have the | :35:22. | :35:27. | |
tools now. A lady here will explode if we don't let her talk. It is a | :35:28. | :35:30. | |
fallacy that you are saying these things. To get back to the 21st | :35:31. | :35:36. | |
century, to get back to now, you know, the union has not helped | :35:37. | :35:42. | |
anybody get, hang on... Just a minute, I haven't said anything yet. | :35:43. | :35:47. | |
Just a second. Finish your point. When you said I think we should be | :35:48. | :35:50. | |
in the union because I care about the children in food banks in | :35:51. | :35:56. | |
England and the rest of the UK as well as Scotland. How, it hasn't | :35:57. | :36:00. | |
worked before? The union has not helped, Westminster and the | :36:01. | :36:05. | |
Westminster consensus, the neo-liberal Westminster consensus | :36:06. | :36:13. | |
has never helped kids yet. That is no argument for a union, that is | :36:14. | :36:17. | |
what I'm saying. I want the perspective of one who has been in | :36:18. | :36:21. | |
the army, you have served and worked in the army. Tell us what difference | :36:22. | :36:24. | |
you think it would make if Scotland was on its own? I just think the | :36:25. | :36:31. | |
threats to Scotland, whether Scotland is in the union or out of | :36:32. | :36:35. | |
the union, they are probably broadly the same, whether it is | :36:36. | :36:40. | |
international terrorism, global financial markets, climate change or | :36:41. | :36:43. | |
good old fashioned state on state conflict. The thing is I believe our | :36:44. | :36:49. | |
ability as a country to deal with those, to be resilient against them | :36:50. | :36:53. | |
is much diminished if we are by ourselves and I think for me it is a | :36:54. | :36:57. | |
terribly simple matter this, we have been focussing on the naval quite a | :36:58. | :37:01. | |
lot and the things that are close in, and are home and we feel, know | :37:02. | :37:06. | |
and understand, but actually the world doesn't stop at Gretna or | :37:07. | :37:09. | |
London, there is an awful lot more of it out there. Do you think an | :37:10. | :37:14. | |
independent Scotland is a safer country? You have had your hand up? | :37:15. | :37:21. | |
I would just like to say we keep hearing about the no campaign about | :37:22. | :37:28. | |
the risks of going into independence. What about the risks | :37:29. | :37:34. | |
of staying as part of England, the chances are in the general election | :37:35. | :37:37. | |
we will have a hung parliament, the Conservative Government will be | :37:38. | :37:40. | |
looking for a coalition, they won't put Cameron in charge, they will | :37:41. | :37:43. | |
have a coalition with UKIP led by Nigel Farage, do we want to be led | :37:44. | :37:47. | |
by those two, are they going to show us compassion, I don't think so. | :37:48. | :37:52. | |
What about Scotland chosing the leader it wants? Alex Salmond has | :37:53. | :37:57. | |
said a vote for the SNP will get rid of a Tory Government. Oh no it | :37:58. | :38:04. | |
won't. You are going to get a Tory Government for the rest of your life | :38:05. | :38:08. | |
because you will sell away the votes of five million Scottish people. You | :38:09. | :38:15. | |
are going to lose 41 ministers in England. We are going to come back | :38:16. | :38:19. | |
to this. Through the course of this campaign though the Westminster | :38:20. | :38:24. | |
leaders have sounded increasingly like desperate boyfriends, pleading | :38:25. | :38:29. | |
and threatening in equal measure, the language is one of bitter | :38:30. | :38:33. | |
divorces, break-ups and a marriage that needs a bit of work. Nonsense | :38:34. | :38:41. | |
says the yes campagin. This is just the lodger who has grown up in his | :38:42. | :38:47. | |
parents home and knows it is time to leave. | :38:48. | :38:51. | |
For 300 years, it has been a complicated relationship. The Act of | :38:52. | :38:54. | |
Union itself was hardly straight forward. Then there was the battle | :38:55. | :39:05. | |
of cull of Culloden, and the introduction of poll tax, as David | :39:06. | :39:08. | |
Cameron is fond of pointing out there are ups and downs, the | :39:09. | :39:13. | |
Scottish enlightenment, men from both of the border caught at | :39:14. | :39:17. | |
Dunkirk. This is a decision that could break up our family of | :39:18. | :39:21. | |
nations, and rip Scotland from the rest of the United Kingdom. | :39:22. | :39:25. | |
Independence would not be a trial separation, it would be a painful | :39:26. | :39:32. | |
divorce. A 300-mile train ride south from Scotland and you arrive here at | :39:33. | :39:37. | |
King's Cross St Pancras, politicians in London have become increasingly | :39:38. | :39:41. | |
fond of that kind of language. It is not just independence, it is a | :39:42. | :39:46. | |
break-up, a split up, the end of a long-term relationship. It is the | :39:47. | :39:52. | |
language mainly of the no camp, but the SNP has also talked about the | :39:53. | :39:57. | |
abusive relationship between England and Scotland. Alex Salmond has said | :39:58. | :40:01. | |
we should be just good friends. Watching the Prime Minister over the | :40:02. | :40:05. | |
last couple of week, first of all he has said look if you go that's it, | :40:06. | :40:10. | |
I'm keeping the house, I'm keeping the car, custody of the children, if | :40:11. | :40:14. | |
you think you can live without me you really are very silly and then | :40:15. | :40:20. | |
he suddenly realised that this partner is still determined to go | :40:21. | :40:23. | |
and may well be leaving. And so at that point he sort of pulled out the | :40:24. | :40:28. | |
big guns with the "I love you so much" and the "please don't no" and | :40:29. | :40:33. | |
"who will we be without you", "how could we possibly be apart". If | :40:34. | :40:40. | |
Scotland votes yes it will be a huge challenge, just like a marriage | :40:41. | :40:44. | |
breaking up or a family being in dissent. It is a huge challenge. It | :40:45. | :40:48. | |
is not only a negative challenge though. Even when people are in | :40:49. | :40:54. | |
absolute agony about divorce there is something interesting or | :40:55. | :40:59. | |
something engaging about there might be something else for me. Even if | :41:00. | :41:03. | |
you are the wronged party. If the vote does go the way of the | :41:04. | :41:08. | |
yes camp, there will then be 18 months of tough negotiations before | :41:09. | :41:12. | |
independence, again the language used is the language of a | :41:13. | :41:16. | |
relationship, there is talk of dividing the assets, of sharing | :41:17. | :41:21. | |
custody of military bases. Who owns the assets, does Scotland own the | :41:22. | :41:25. | |
oil, if Scotland owns the oil who owns the oil rig, what about the | :41:26. | :41:29. | |
money we have spent developing the oil, is that UK-based, what do we do | :41:30. | :41:33. | |
about Dolly the sheep, was that a breakthrough for Great Britain, or | :41:34. | :41:36. | |
was it just a breakthrough for great Scotland. The symbolism in the last | :41:37. | :41:44. | |
few days of the campaign has been unambiguous, Gordon Brown appeared | :41:45. | :41:47. | |
in front of giant hearts, love bombing Scottish voters with talk of | :41:48. | :41:53. | |
togetherness. But at the same time the message from David Cameron in | :41:54. | :41:57. | |
Westminster has been harder. Walk away and there will be no getting | :41:58. | :42:01. | |
back together. I think it would have been better to stay away from the | :42:02. | :42:08. | |
humanisation of to have not used words like "separation" and | :42:09. | :42:13. | |
"divorce", but we haven't gone that positive route, it has become | :42:14. | :42:25. | |
D-I-V-O-R-C-E! Have we damaged this relation forever? It will be hard, | :42:26. | :42:29. | |
and I suspect it is the beginning of a longer process, it really is, it | :42:30. | :42:38. | |
is going to be tough. Are we going to need some therapy for the | :42:39. | :42:42. | |
country? We are going to need therapy, I don't know who is up for | :42:43. | :42:48. | |
the job, it's not me! What are we to make of the language of separation | :42:49. | :42:53. | |
and divorce, let's discuss with two people of letters, Ian Morrison, a | :42:54. | :42:55. | |
Scottish writer who recently defected from the yes campaign, and | :42:56. | :43:01. | |
the poet Jenny Lindsay who is planning to vote yes. What do you | :43:02. | :43:06. | |
make of this language when we have heard the constant references to | :43:07. | :43:09. | |
break-ups and divorce and bitterness? I have always found the | :43:10. | :43:15. | |
marriage rhetoric quite irritating to be honest with you, because while | :43:16. | :43:20. | |
not disrespecting some of the people who have spoken this evening about | :43:21. | :43:24. | |
feeling like we're a family of nations. What it is is political | :43:25. | :43:29. | |
rhetoric designed to silence debate. Because if you start talking about | :43:30. | :43:34. | |
the independence referendum as being about divorcing, about ripping us | :43:35. | :43:37. | |
apart and floating off into the North Sea, which we're not planning | :43:38. | :43:41. | |
on doing, we're planning on staying right here, it silences debate and | :43:42. | :43:46. | |
makes people feel guilty. It makes people feel bad about leaving their | :43:47. | :43:54. | |
friends and family. Also feeds into the idea, pardon, intimidating? It | :43:55. | :43:59. | |
is a bit desperate isn't it? I think in terms of the way that the entire | :44:00. | :44:03. | |
debate run, you know, some of the things that Jenny is talking about | :44:04. | :44:07. | |
are things that are also levelled against the yes camp, that they play | :44:08. | :44:12. | |
with words that the words themselves are intimidatory, I do agree with | :44:13. | :44:18. | |
Jenny that we should really at this stage get beyond talking in | :44:19. | :44:23. | |
metaphors, if Alex Salmond is talking about it not being a divorce | :44:24. | :44:27. | |
or separation, it is a teenage child living with parents and wanting to | :44:28. | :44:32. | |
leave. Then you go why would you give power to a teenage child to run | :44:33. | :44:36. | |
Government. It is a bit silly. What else do you do without metaphor, you | :44:37. | :44:41. | |
don't want drei dry language or currency union debates? Yes itself | :44:42. | :44:46. | |
is a great big metaphor. In itself it is too loaded with alternative | :44:47. | :44:51. | |
meanings. I don't think we would have the euphoria around yes if the | :44:52. | :44:54. | |
wording in the referendum had been the other way round. I think it is | :44:55. | :44:58. | |
very simplistic, I think the reason that I find the marriage metaphor | :44:59. | :45:02. | |
quite so irritating, and I will say it is only when politicians do it, I | :45:03. | :45:07. | |
have seen many artists and writers create brilliant creative responses | :45:08. | :45:11. | |
using marriage as a metaphor, talking about going through a | :45:12. | :45:13. | |
process of England and Scotland and the rest of the UK talking and | :45:14. | :45:16. | |
things like that. That is all grand, but when politicians use it, don't | :45:17. | :45:20. | |
be under any illusions, it is designed to silence debate and make | :45:21. | :45:24. | |
you feel scared and make you feel guilty. I suppose it is like Orwell | :45:25. | :45:29. | |
said political language of all kind, and sure it is on the yes side as | :45:30. | :45:34. | |
well, it is designed to make lies sound truthful, murder respectable | :45:35. | :45:37. | |
and give the appearance of solidity to pure whims. When you ask the | :45:38. | :45:41. | |
audience they say they have felt more energised and more close to | :45:42. | :45:44. | |
change with this one moment and referendum than at any other time? I | :45:45. | :45:58. | |
would say that is reactionary because seven days a week the media | :45:59. | :46:03. | |
is broadcasting opinion as news. Anyone disagree? What about the | :46:04. | :46:10. | |
media burning Union Jacks up in Scotland, at Bannockburn. They are | :46:11. | :46:15. | |
burning Union Jacks and that is what will happen. The genie is out of the | :46:16. | :46:19. | |
bottle and there will be sectarian strive. He's talking about | :46:20. | :46:24. | |
separation and ripping the heart out of something. Just a second? The BBC | :46:25. | :46:29. | |
has been accused of bias. David Cameron should have stayed away, | :46:30. | :46:32. | |
he's not popular in Scotland. However any question that's asked of | :46:33. | :46:38. | |
the yes campaign, if people ask for answers to any questions, you don't | :46:39. | :46:42. | |
get answers, you get told you are scaremongering, there is no actual | :46:43. | :46:45. | |
answers given. We have got two hand, yours at the back and then I will | :46:46. | :46:52. | |
come to you. It is resorting to metaphor, my granddad was a northern | :46:53. | :46:57. | |
English trade unionist who married a middle-class Scottish Tory, on paper | :46:58. | :46:59. | |
that shouldn't have worked, it is like the union itself, on paper you | :47:00. | :47:03. | |
think we are two completely different countries and yet it has | :47:04. | :47:05. | |
worked, that is the great thing about the union and what makes the | :47:06. | :47:10. | |
United Kingdom and a Great Britain. Maybe that is right, maybe you are | :47:11. | :47:16. | |
looking at something up here. What I said earlier, the problem is one of | :47:17. | :47:20. | |
democracy, who gets to choose what happens in Scotland, when Neil | :47:21. | :47:23. | |
Oliver was on earlier on, he praised the union and how we show concern | :47:24. | :47:28. | |
for other people, the fact of the matter is the Labour Party, which | :47:29. | :47:32. | |
has been elected in Scotland, directs its concerns to the concerns | :47:33. | :47:36. | |
of the City of London and the much, much bigger country, which is | :47:37. | :47:39. | |
England which forms part of the union, we do not get our own choices | :47:40. | :47:43. | |
here. Right, we have come to a pretty key | :47:44. | :47:49. | |
moment in the show, because tomorrow our handful of undecided will have | :47:50. | :47:57. | |
to bite the bullet. We have asked one person from the audience to make | :47:58. | :48:00. | |
a brief final pitch. We will go first to the no campaign, Gary you | :48:01. | :48:04. | |
volunteered to do this, I will keep you to a minute? A yes vote tomorrow | :48:05. | :48:10. | |
is a vote for your vision of an independent Scotland. That is the | :48:11. | :48:13. | |
problem with the campaign so far, if you look at the no campaign you can | :48:14. | :48:17. | |
see where the division s you can see Labour, Tories and Liberal | :48:18. | :48:20. | |
Democrats, all campaigning for a no, but all trying to get their digs in | :48:21. | :48:24. | |
each other at the same time. That hasn't been seen in the yes | :48:25. | :48:27. | |
campaign, the reason is all they are asking for is independence, without | :48:28. | :48:30. | |
any idea what will follow afterwards. As part of that campaign | :48:31. | :48:33. | |
there are people who want to create a new oil boom on the same side as | :48:34. | :48:38. | |
greens. There are people like Business for Scotland who want to | :48:39. | :48:41. | |
cut corporation tax and make this place aer in van a that for | :48:42. | :48:45. | |
business, at the same time there are people who are socialists and who | :48:46. | :48:48. | |
want more tax and spend in Scotland. Day after a yes vote those people | :48:49. | :48:52. | |
will be at loggerheads with each other and take the arguments we have | :48:53. | :48:55. | |
in the UK and scale it down to the level of Scotland, and the same | :48:56. | :49:00. | |
squabbling on a smaller scale. I will stop you there and give Billy | :49:01. | :49:04. | |
the time to make the pitch for the yes vote. Let's hear Billy talk to | :49:05. | :49:13. | |
the undecided voters. We are always accused on the yes side of not being | :49:14. | :49:16. | |
able to answer questions, and we always respond with talking about | :49:17. | :49:22. | |
scaremongering, but we heard tonight somebody saying that if we vote yes | :49:23. | :49:27. | |
we are looking down the barrel at a financial crisis. I would just like | :49:28. | :49:30. | |
to say where have we been for the last six years. This country is ?1. | :49:31. | :49:39. | |
4 trillion in debt. Financial crisi scare monger, you are talking ing, I | :49:40. | :49:47. | |
have been asking one question of the no side for the last two years and I | :49:48. | :49:52. | |
have not heard one sensible answer yet so unbehalf of these people here | :49:53. | :50:00. | |
in what way does any country benefit from being subservient to another | :50:01. | :50:08. | |
country. Thank you very much. And now it is down to you three in the | :50:09. | :50:11. | |
middle, Jason, I will start with you, has anything you heard tonight | :50:12. | :50:16. | |
from the people up here, from your fellow audience members changed your | :50:17. | :50:20. | |
mind, helped you make your mind up? Unfortunately I would probably say | :50:21. | :50:23. | |
no, I'm in the same position I was before. But that is swinging this | :50:24. | :50:31. | |
way, to Gary's point. I would rather a rabble after an independence vote | :50:32. | :50:37. | |
than the homogeneous mess than we have in Westminster right now. Sorry | :50:38. | :50:43. | |
we are out of time, Lindsay your feelings? I have been disappointed | :50:44. | :50:47. | |
by a lot of the negativity put forward by the no side of the | :50:48. | :50:54. | |
audience and also a lot of real focussing on neo-liberal economic | :50:55. | :50:57. | |
arguments, I want to live in a community not an economy. I want a | :50:58. | :51:02. | |
Scotland based on equality and not the markets, I think that we have | :51:03. | :51:05. | |
more of a chance for that under a yes vote. Have you just been won | :51:06. | :51:18. | |
over, that sounds like two yes. Anne-Marie we started with you and | :51:19. | :51:20. | |
will end with you, what are you feeling? I have heard both sides it | :51:21. | :51:24. | |
is massively compelling to have somebody say in your house you look | :51:25. | :51:28. | |
after your own finances because you have got your own interests. I don't | :51:29. | :51:33. | |
think it is a selfish premise to say that you are being selfish to your | :51:34. | :51:36. | |
neighbours that live two and three houses down because you are | :51:37. | :51:40. | |
controlling your own budget and looking after your own house, I | :51:41. | :51:45. | |
think it is a compelling argument and I probably would say there is | :51:46. | :51:49. | |
more positivity coming from this side and it has been very negative. | :51:50. | :51:53. | |
Your husband is on this side? I will speak to him when I go home. Thank | :51:54. | :52:02. | |
you all very much indeed. A terrific audience with us. That is all we | :52:03. | :52:05. | |
have time for, just to remind you, as if you didn't know, the polls | :52:06. | :52:12. | |
open at 7.00 tomorrow, that is 7-and-a-half hours time. Kirsty is | :52:13. | :52:16. | |
back tomorrow from Edinburgh, from all of us here, good night. Thanks | :52:17. | :52:18. | |
for watching. Er The low cloud along the east | :52:19. | :52:49. | |
coast is pushing back inland overnight. It will be a grey misty | :52:50. | :52:53. | |
start for many of us, patchy fog into Scotland and north-east | :52:54. | :52:55. | |
England. We should see the | :52:56. | :52:57. |