Browse content similar to 09/11/2015. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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You wouldn't have thought you could hear a report about drug cheats or | :00:00. | :00:07. | |
corruption in international sports and still be shocked. | :00:08. | :00:10. | |
But here's one, on Russia and athletics. | :00:11. | :00:21. | |
Have happened without everybody knowing about it or consenting to | :00:22. | :00:26. | |
it, so it's worse than we thought. Layers of the Russian sporting | :00:27. | :00:28. | |
establishment, the Government there, and international athletics | :00:29. | :00:32. | |
and anti-doping authorities. We'll ask this former Olympic | :00:33. | :00:36. | |
athlete how, why and with what consequence has | :00:37. | :00:38. | |
the sport been sullied. Also tonight, | :00:39. | :00:43. | |
Europe has always been a tough issue Are you enjoying the Common Market? | :00:44. | :00:55. | |
Come and join us in this protest march to Downing Street. Get Britain | :00:56. | :00:57. | |
out! Things may have changed since 1974, | :00:58. | :01:00. | |
but David Cameron is set to officially list | :01:01. | :01:03. | |
his renegotiation demands tomorrow. Can he win enough to break the | :01:04. | :01:04. | |
Euro-sceptic case for getting out? Ukip's Susan Evans is | :01:05. | :01:07. | |
here to suggest not. To these scientists the continuous | :01:08. | :01:18. | |
journey for understanding all that is... | :01:19. | :01:19. | |
Step aside Nobels, science gets the Oscars treatment. | :01:20. | :01:21. | |
Will the Breakthrough Prize make the laboratory seem sexier, | :01:22. | :01:23. | |
It was a German television documentary that | :01:24. | :01:43. | |
It prompted a follow-up inquiry into doping in athletics, | :01:44. | :01:49. | |
And that has proceeded to a more dramatic outcome than anyone | :01:50. | :01:56. | |
You can download the inquiry report and read the charge sheet. | :01:57. | :02:00. | |
"the acceptance of cheating at all levels is widespread and | :02:01. | :02:05. | |
"Russian athletes were often willing participants. | :02:06. | :02:10. | |
However, there are documented cases where athletes who did not want to | :02:11. | :02:13. | |
participate in 'the program' were informed they | :02:14. | :02:16. | |
would not be considered as part of the Federation's national team". | :02:17. | :02:23. | |
"The reported presence of the security services (the FSB) | :02:24. | :02:25. | |
And "the practice of doping in athletics in Russia remains very | :02:26. | :02:32. | |
much current, even following the German documentary". | :02:33. | :02:34. | |
"The Olympic Games in London were, in a sense, sabotaged by the | :02:35. | :02:39. | |
admission of athletes who should have not been competing" And be | :02:40. | :02:49. | |
clear, the most explosive chapter of the report has not been published - | :02:50. | :02:52. | |
the one on the International Association | :02:53. | :02:54. | |
Material has been given to Interpol for | :02:55. | :02:57. | |
a proper criminal investigation into charges of corruption and bribery. | :02:58. | :03:02. | |
The journalist Mark Daly has been investigating doping in sport | :03:03. | :03:06. | |
The prediction was that it would be one of athletics' darkest days, | :03:07. | :03:25. | |
publication of the World Anti-Doping Agency independent commission's | :03:26. | :03:28. | |
findings into doping at the heart of athletics. The reality it was so | :03:29. | :03:36. | |
much worse than that. For 2016 our recommendation is that the Russian | :03:37. | :03:41. | |
Federation be suspended. Dick Pound's commission was launched | :03:42. | :03:44. | |
after allegations were made in a German doubtry last year that the | :03:45. | :03:47. | |
Russian athletics federation was riddled with corruption and was | :03:48. | :03:51. | |
involved in covering up positive dope terrorists by its athletes. | :03:52. | :03:54. | |
Today the documentary was proved correct. Russia had been involved in | :03:55. | :04:02. | |
state-sponsored doping, perhaps even reminiscent of the old Soviet days, | :04:03. | :04:07. | |
corruptly covering up positive drug terrorists and destroying more than | :04:08. | :04:12. | |
1,400 test samples. Russia has been the Wild West of dopings if illtated | :04:13. | :04:17. | |
by officials who acted more like gangsters. Now they could be banned | :04:18. | :04:21. | |
from the next Olympics. It is not just Russia that is in the frame. | :04:22. | :04:25. | |
There's a second part a this story that's missing from this report. And | :04:26. | :04:32. | |
that's because the former head of athletics governing body, the IAAF, | :04:33. | :04:35. | |
Lamine Diack, and several others, are subject to a criminal | :04:36. | :04:39. | |
investigation. But what the report does say is that it found corruption | :04:40. | :04:44. | |
and bribery at the very highest level of the IAAF. So, what does | :04:45. | :04:51. | |
that mean for its newly crowned President, Seb Coe. . Is Seb Coe the | :04:52. | :05:00. | |
right man to lead the IAAF out of this mess? I believe that Seb Coe is | :05:01. | :05:07. | |
somebody who can grasp this and be transform arable enough to bring | :05:08. | :05:10. | |
about change in athletics. I hope so, because his sport is at risk if | :05:11. | :05:15. | |
he doesn't. I think the difficulty that Seb's got is he was there | :05:16. | :05:20. | |
throughout the period, he was a Vice-President under Lamine Diack | :05:21. | :05:24. | |
and he has long-standing links to the IAAF. He that to get on the | :05:25. | :05:28. | |
front foot and create a separation between his era and that of Lamine | :05:29. | :05:32. | |
Diack. He will find that difficult to do. Just three months ago when he | :05:33. | :05:38. | |
took the presidency Lord Coe was fulsome in his praise for Lamine | :05:39. | :05:42. | |
Diack, calling him the spiritual leader of the IAA. If. Those | :05:43. | :05:46. | |
comments must haunt him. He said yesterday he wasn't in favour of | :05:47. | :05:51. | |
banning Russia. Today he's been forced to recalibrate his comments | :05:52. | :05:55. | |
and is now seeking approval from his fellow IAAF members to consider | :05:56. | :06:01. | |
sanctions. Dick Pound, well he's been heralded as the man who might | :06:02. | :06:07. | |
save athletics. And that's a role that Seb Coe was hoping to fill | :06:08. | :06:20. | |
himself. This will not with a swift road. So can Lord Coe, who famously | :06:21. | :06:26. | |
delivered the Olympics to London, deliver the rehabilitation of his | :06:27. | :06:29. | |
sport's wounded reputation? It is not the first time that Seb's been | :06:30. | :06:33. | |
quick to defend someone who is under investigation. We saw it in the case | :06:34. | :06:38. | |
of Alberto Salazar. We are waiting for the report into those | :06:39. | :06:42. | |
allegations. Yet he was quick to come out and say that Salazar would | :06:43. | :06:46. | |
be cleared of those claims. Likewise with the Russians he's said they | :06:47. | :06:51. | |
would probably refer to rehabilitate them from within and within 24 hours | :06:52. | :06:55. | |
Dick Pound has said they should be banned. He would have been wise er | :06:56. | :07:02. | |
to have kept his powder dry. Dick Pound publicly thanked the | :07:03. | :07:05. | |
journalist who broke the story, Hajo Seppelt. The only thanks he says | :07:06. | :07:11. | |
he's received so far was a threat to sue him. We can talk to that German | :07:12. | :07:18. | |
journalist who got all this going for ARD, the German broadcaster, | :07:19. | :07:23. | |
Hajo Seppelt. He joins us from Geneva. Congratulations on scoop of | :07:24. | :07:31. | |
the decade. Tell us, all the talk of suology you presumably has gone out | :07:32. | :07:35. | |
of the window. What are they saying to you now, the IAAF? Nothing so | :07:36. | :07:42. | |
far. I have no contact with IAAF officials. No-one contacted us since | :07:43. | :07:46. | |
the beginning of the year. We tried several times to get interviews, Seb | :07:47. | :07:52. | |
Coe is the first time we tried to get, in Monaco after our first | :07:53. | :07:56. | |
documentary was aired in December 2014. Refused to talk to us. I was | :07:57. | :08:01. | |
waiting for five hours. He promised me to come but he didn't show up. | :08:02. | :08:07. | |
Later on we sent him several e-mails, official requests by ARD | :08:08. | :08:11. | |
German television to get interviews in regards to our second documentary | :08:12. | :08:17. | |
about the suspicion of widespread blood doping in athletics. But | :08:18. | :08:21. | |
refused to comment. In Beijing at the World Championships it was | :08:22. | :08:25. | |
exactly the same. He refused to talk to me and he gave an interview to | :08:26. | :08:31. | |
ARD German television but not to me. He was insisting on the interviewer | :08:32. | :08:35. | |
has to be something else. Sorry, the he in this case is who? Excuse me? | :08:36. | :08:41. | |
When you say he refused to give you an interview, you are talking about | :08:42. | :08:47. | |
who, Seb Coe? Yes, I talk about Seb Coe all the time, yes. Yes, and have | :08:48. | :08:52. | |
you been surprised by anything that Dick Pound has uncovered that you | :08:53. | :08:56. | |
hadn't uncovered? Maybe you are surprised that it has been going on | :08:57. | :09:01. | |
since you made your documentary about it? Sorry, I didn't understand | :09:02. | :09:05. | |
the questions. The line is very bad, can you repeat. I'm sorry. Have you | :09:06. | :09:10. | |
been surprised by anything they found, Dick Pound found? I was | :09:11. | :09:16. | |
surprised, the Russians continued since your documentary, it is going | :09:17. | :09:23. | |
on now. I tell you to be very honest I'm not surprised about the Russian | :09:24. | :09:26. | |
reaction. It is always the same. When we aired the first documentary | :09:27. | :09:30. | |
the Russians said it was a pack of lies what we did. They told me I'm | :09:31. | :09:36. | |
an ignorant journalist, that I have no clue about anything. I'm working | :09:37. | :09:42. | |
on doping stories as a doping research investigative journalist | :09:43. | :09:44. | |
for 20 years and the Russians claimed I don't know the rules or | :09:45. | :09:50. | |
how to work on this. To be honest always in sport people react in a | :09:51. | :09:55. | |
harsh way. Maybe the Russians a little more aggressive but in | :09:56. | :09:59. | |
general you have always to consider that in doping in sports, mostly the | :10:00. | :10:07. | |
mess I thinkers are the sports, mostly the mess I thinkers are the | :10:08. | :10:11. | |
people who are -- maybe the messengers will be blamed by the | :10:12. | :10:14. | |
federation and not the people responsible for the doping problem. | :10:15. | :10:19. | |
Hajo Seppelt, your point haw now been taken and reported the world | :10:20. | :10:21. | |
over. Thank you very much indeed. Now, there were two layers | :10:22. | :10:25. | |
of charges today. First are the ones against at the | :10:26. | :10:27. | |
Russians, as if there weren't enough complicated relationship issues with | :10:28. | :10:30. | |
the Russians at the moment. The second, though, are the ones | :10:31. | :10:32. | |
against the IAAF - the international I'm joined by the European | :10:33. | :10:47. | |
Championships 10,000 metres medallist, Jo Pavey, from her home | :10:48. | :10:53. | |
in Devon. She lost out to athletics subsequently disqualified for | :10:54. | :10:57. | |
doping, including missing out on a medal in 2007. With in the studio is | :10:58. | :11:03. | |
Mihir Bose. Good evening to you both. How aware of you at the time | :11:04. | :11:09. | |
were you that the Russians were doped? If I'm honest, I did have my | :11:10. | :11:17. | |
suspicions about certain athletes, but I think this report has been | :11:18. | :11:21. | |
shocking to everyone in the sport. You have your suspicions about | :11:22. | :11:25. | |
certain athletes, but the fact that it has uncovered that a nation was | :11:26. | :11:30. | |
involved in systemically doping their athletes. You thought the days | :11:31. | :11:33. | |
where that could happen in sport were behind us. It is very | :11:34. | :11:39. | |
devastating and shocking. Times were I finished lying flat on my back on | :11:40. | :11:43. | |
the track giving it everybody I've got and I've missed those moments on | :11:44. | :11:47. | |
the podium. I can never get those back. It is really disappointing. | :11:48. | :11:54. | |
What now, Jo, sorry to interrupt you. What now do you think the | :11:55. | :11:58. | |
effect of Russian cheating was on your career? I think there has been | :11:59. | :12:06. | |
Russian athletes at times that have finished ahead of me. It will be | :12:07. | :12:11. | |
hard to mention certain names, but one of them has been banned in | :12:12. | :12:15. | |
certain competitions and she's an athlete that in the past has kept me | :12:16. | :12:21. | |
out of medal positions. The fact it seems that it was systemic in that | :12:22. | :12:25. | |
country is devastating. It is likely I might be awarded a bronze medal | :12:26. | :12:30. | |
retrospectively from 2007 World Championships. I finished fourth | :12:31. | :12:35. | |
that day lying on the track flat on my back, I gave it everything. | :12:36. | :12:39. | |
Rather than it being a moment of disappointment it should have been a | :12:40. | :12:42. | |
moment where I was on the podium having won a medal for my country. | :12:43. | :12:46. | |
Can I never get that moment back. It is destroying not just my career but | :12:47. | :12:52. | |
other athletes' career. Mihir Bose, let's start with the Seb Coe | :12:53. | :12:56. | |
question. Who's a popular guy, he ran London 2012. Do you think he's | :12:57. | :13:01. | |
the guy to clean up athletics? He's been an insider in the IAAF hasn't | :13:02. | :13:08. | |
he? Seb is a trusted guy. He got the games and ran it very well. He was | :13:09. | :13:14. | |
eight years Vice-President and he comes in as Lamine Diack's | :13:15. | :13:17. | |
successor. If you notice what the head of the Russian Federation has | :13:18. | :13:20. | |
said is that any suspension will have to go to the IAAF council. | :13:21. | :13:26. | |
There again you go back if you like into the old council, which is still | :13:27. | :13:30. | |
existing, deciding on suspending a federation member. So how does Coe | :13:31. | :13:35. | |
step outside and become the man who cleans everything up? That's a | :13:36. | :13:37. | |
difficult thing to do. I'm not saying he can't do it buts | :13:38. | :13:43. | |
difficult. We'll be saying Sepp Blatter can't clean up Fifa and | :13:44. | :13:50. | |
suddenly our guy is in charge of an institution that's been systemically | :13:51. | :13:53. | |
corrupt. Where does this one stand, do you think? This takes the gold | :13:54. | :13:57. | |
medal. First of all Fifa's corruption is if you like business | :13:58. | :14:01. | |
corruption. Very bad, no question about it, but the banks could have | :14:02. | :14:05. | |
done it in other walks of life. People taking money, envelopes | :14:06. | :14:09. | |
passing because you want to bid for the World Cup. This is about sport. | :14:10. | :14:15. | |
If you watch Messi score a goal you don't want to believe he's passed a | :14:16. | :14:19. | |
five er to the goalkeeper. Similarly in athletics, you don't want to | :14:20. | :14:22. | |
believe that the one who won the gold medal has done it through | :14:23. | :14:25. | |
cheating. That's one aspect. And the second aspect is in the last 15 | :14:26. | :14:30. | |
years we've believed or been led to believe with the existence of WADA, | :14:31. | :14:36. | |
laboratories like Moscow and so on, that we are coming to grips with | :14:37. | :14:43. | |
this, but the system doesn't work. There's a flaw that can't be | :14:44. | :14:48. | |
corrected. Jo, do you trust Seb Coe as the man who clean up athletics? | :14:49. | :14:54. | |
It is your sport. I think Seb Coe is very passionate about sport. I think | :14:55. | :14:57. | |
he would admit himself that it is going to be a much harder job than | :14:58. | :15:03. | |
even he first realised. Realised. He said he's been shocked and dismayed | :15:04. | :15:07. | |
by the report and has got a harder job to do than he first thought. But | :15:08. | :15:16. | |
his ideas of an independent Anti-Doping Agency, all athletes | :15:17. | :15:19. | |
worldwide need to go through the same rigorous testing procedures and | :15:20. | :15:22. | |
there should be nowhere for anyone to hide. Even when there's talk of | :15:23. | :15:28. | |
considering banning Russia from the Olympic Games, if that's what is | :15:29. | :15:31. | |
necessary to make sure that there's no cheats on the start line, tough | :15:32. | :15:37. | |
measures are going to be carried out. Clean athletes could suffer in | :15:38. | :15:43. | |
that respect but if that's what's necessary at this stage. | :15:44. | :15:49. | |
If Russia isn't banned... It will raise enormous questions about the | :15:50. | :15:57. | |
Olympics. It will raise enormous questions about the International | :15:58. | :16:00. | |
Olympic Committee. It doesn't run the individual sport. It provides a | :16:01. | :16:04. | |
festival of sport over two weeks. We will ask the question: How powerful | :16:05. | :16:08. | |
is it? Remember, this is sports connected with politics. There is as | :16:09. | :16:13. | |
you mention, Mr Putin who sees sport and if you like a weapon of Russian | :16:14. | :16:17. | |
foreign policy. Is he going to accept a ban? You've been involved | :16:18. | :16:23. | |
in a lot of sports, covering them for many years, why is sport, why | :16:24. | :16:29. | |
international sporting organisations so prone to corruption of one form | :16:30. | :16:33. | |
or northerning? Because they're badly run. Because the people who | :16:34. | :16:36. | |
run them are not very good. The best people don't come in to run sport. | :16:37. | :16:40. | |
They go elsewhere. The best people are actually the advisors. They make | :16:41. | :16:44. | |
a lot of money out of sport, the lawyers and accountants surrounding | :16:45. | :16:47. | |
them. The best sportsmen don't come in. They've got their honours and | :16:48. | :16:52. | |
they go away. That is the basic problem with sport. Sport has become | :16:53. | :16:56. | |
business. As it has become business it hasn't acquired any ideas of how | :16:57. | :17:00. | |
accountable it should be, how transparent it should be. It's run | :17:01. | :17:05. | |
by very, very incompetent, not always corrupt, very incompetent | :17:06. | :17:07. | |
people who can be easily corrupted. Thank you both very much indoed. | :17:08. | :17:12. | |
Tomorrow David Cameron will write to the president of the | :17:13. | :17:15. | |
European Council, the former Polish prime minister, Donald Tusk, to | :17:16. | :17:17. | |
spell out how he wants the EU, and British membership of it, reformed. | :17:18. | :17:20. | |
We've got a pretty good idea of a lot of what's | :17:21. | :17:23. | |
on the shopping list, but this will be the official version. | :17:24. | :17:25. | |
To prepare, the PM was speaking at the CBI conference today, | :17:26. | :17:28. | |
saying he was deadly serious about reform, in a speech that was briefly | :17:29. | :17:31. | |
First though, here's our diplomatic correspondent, Mark Urban. | :17:32. | :17:47. | |
Come on guys. If you sit down now, can you ask me a question rather | :17:48. | :17:53. | |
than making fools of yourself by just standing up and protesting. | :17:54. | :17:57. | |
Even as David Cameron tried to make his case this morning, evidence that | :17:58. | :18:01. | |
those who want out will only get more vocal. Even I can remember that | :18:02. | :18:07. | |
script without any notes. This audience was on side, at least as | :18:08. | :18:11. | |
far as wanting to hear the PM's shopping list. The things I want | :18:12. | :18:16. | |
fixed, whether it's making a more competitive Europe, whether it's | :18:17. | :18:19. | |
making sure we're out of ever closer union, whether it's making sure | :18:20. | :18:23. | |
there's proper fairness of those in the eurozone and those out of the | :18:24. | :18:28. | |
eurozone or whether it's reducing the pressures that we face through | :18:29. | :18:32. | |
immigration, these are big and important changes. I think it's | :18:33. | :18:33. | |
vital that we achieve them. The EU concept of ever closer union | :18:34. | :18:50. | |
is part of its founding Rome treaty language, long cherished by | :18:51. | :18:52. | |
federalists and offensive to sceptics. Number Ten want the phrase | :18:53. | :18:58. | |
dropped. Other countries will try to limit such linguistic back sliding | :18:59. | :19:03. | |
to Britain alone. If you look at what's happened electorally in | :19:04. | :19:07. | |
places like Greece and Portugal, the political elites may be trying to | :19:08. | :19:12. | |
take the European Union in One Direction, but the people going to | :19:13. | :19:15. | |
the ballot boxes are saying something different. The Portuguese | :19:16. | :19:20. | |
people made it clear at the recent elections they do not want to see | :19:21. | :19:24. | |
ever closer union. That's something very much not on the table for the | :19:25. | :19:34. | |
British people. Election of a more Euro-sceptic government in Poland is | :19:35. | :19:37. | |
just one sign that Downing Street optimists see that the UK may find | :19:38. | :19:44. | |
supporters for its ideas, both at non-eurozone countries shouldn't be | :19:45. | :19:48. | |
put at a competitive disadvantage or outvoted. Accommodations will be | :19:49. | :20:02. | |
urged by those who really don't want brexitment Ireland regards the | :20:03. | :20:05. | |
prospect of their leaving the European Union as a major strategic | :20:06. | :20:10. | |
risk. In truth the full risks are unknown. As much would depend on the | :20:11. | :20:15. | |
process and detail of what the process would actually look like. | :20:16. | :20:23. | |
However, it's an outcome that the Irish government does not wish to | :20:24. | :20:33. | |
see materialise in the first place. That kind of support will also help | :20:34. | :20:37. | |
with Mr Cameron's suggestion that the single market should be extended | :20:38. | :20:44. | |
to some areas, like energy, where it still operates very imperfectly. But | :20:45. | :20:48. | |
while the CBI might like that, is it really a winner on the doorstep? The | :20:49. | :20:53. | |
things that resonate on the doorstep and in the boardroom might be | :20:54. | :20:56. | |
different. I think the Prime Minister is absolutely right to look | :20:57. | :21:00. | |
at a whole range of issues that will make a real difference to the | :21:01. | :21:02. | |
British people and the British economy. So what about that key | :21:03. | :21:12. | |
doorstep issue - migration? The ongoing crisis keeps it in the | :21:13. | :21:18. | |
public eye. But internal EU migration poses Mr Cameron with his | :21:19. | :21:23. | |
toughest challenge. He talked before about stopping benefits, but that | :21:24. | :21:27. | |
won't be easy. In all the other areas he can get something. This is | :21:28. | :21:31. | |
going to be really hard. The thing he probably can't get is his | :21:32. | :21:35. | |
requirement that EU migrants shouldn't be able to claim in-work | :21:36. | :21:39. | |
benefits like tax credits until they've lived in the UK for four | :21:40. | :21:45. | |
years. That would be incompatible with the treaty's provision on | :21:46. | :21:48. | |
nondiscrimination on nationals from another country. It's hard to see | :21:49. | :21:52. | |
how he could get that. In the months ahead, it will be important for the | :21:53. | :21:56. | |
Prime Minister and his allies to maintain a sense of jeopardy, that | :21:57. | :22:01. | |
they are really trying to get the best deal and that it may not work | :22:02. | :22:07. | |
out. But those close to him insist that the jeopardy is very real and | :22:08. | :22:12. | |
that on some of these key issues, he may have to say that he hasn't got | :22:13. | :22:18. | |
exactly what he set out to achieve. Long-term economic security... | :22:19. | :22:23. | |
Today's skirmish was hardly the first and it certainly won't be the | :22:24. | :22:26. | |
last. At some time in the coming months, David Cameron will have to | :22:27. | :22:30. | |
pick his moment to say whether the deal he's got is really worth voting | :22:31. | :22:32. | |
for. To discuss another crunch week | :22:33. | :22:36. | |
for Britain's upcoming referendum on the EU, we're joined from Poland | :22:37. | :22:38. | |
by Radek Shikorski, Poland's former foreign minister, who has just been | :22:39. | :22:41. | |
appointed as a senior fellow at Harvard University, | :22:42. | :22:44. | |
and from Edinburgh, UKIP's deputy Radek Shikorski, do you think it's | :22:45. | :22:58. | |
possible for David Cameron to win the sorts of things we suspect he's | :22:59. | :23:06. | |
asking for? First of all, I'd rather be talking about British leadership | :23:07. | :23:09. | |
in Europe and it's there for the taking, for example, in the area of | :23:10. | :23:14. | |
defence, of foreign policy, where Europe needs it and it would give | :23:15. | :23:21. | |
Britain a great deal of influence. But yes, this is very cleverly | :23:22. | :23:27. | |
crafted, because on the issues that have been mentioned, David Cameron | :23:28. | :23:33. | |
will find allies in Europe. Energy union in particular in Poland. But | :23:34. | :23:38. | |
also, completing the single market, a British idea in the area of | :23:39. | :23:45. | |
digital trade, of services. Here, he is entitled to speak for millions of | :23:46. | :23:52. | |
Europeans and to make the EU itself a better organism. I expect this to | :23:53. | :24:00. | |
chime well with the kinds of governments that he needs to support | :24:01. | :24:05. | |
his agenda. Aren't you overspeaking here? Sorry to interrupt. You're | :24:06. | :24:10. | |
going too far here. You're meant to say, oh, it's going to be very | :24:11. | :24:13. | |
difficult. There will be enormous fight over these. His main objective | :24:14. | :24:20. | |
is to look as though he's having a big fight with you. Well, there will | :24:21. | :24:24. | |
be problems with the benefits business. Remember, we in Poland do | :24:25. | :24:31. | |
not encourage our citizens to travel for work to Britain. We would rather | :24:32. | :24:39. | |
see our Poles coming back to Poland. But any Polish government will not | :24:40. | :24:44. | |
agree to anything that smacks of discrimination or picking on | :24:45. | :24:48. | |
particular nationalities. Remember that countries that are outside the | :24:49. | :24:54. | |
EU, but are inside the European Economic Area, Norway for example, | :24:55. | :24:58. | |
also has had to open its labour market. There are 100,000 or so | :24:59. | :25:05. | |
Poles working in Norway. To avoid that, Britain would have to leave | :25:06. | :25:10. | |
not just the EU, but also the European Economic Area. Then you are | :25:11. | :25:14. | |
on a very long journey into the unknown. Let me just ask, sorry let | :25:15. | :25:25. | |
me put that point to Suzanne Evans. Firstly, do you agree that David | :25:26. | :25:29. | |
Cameron can win most of what he's going to ask them for? I know that's | :25:30. | :25:33. | |
not enough for you, can he win that? I don't think he can actually. I | :25:34. | :25:37. | |
think what David Cameron is doing is making a jolly good show. He's | :25:38. | :25:41. | |
trying to show that he is committed to reform, that he can win reform. | :25:42. | :25:45. | |
The fact is in order to get what most people want in Britain, which | :25:46. | :25:49. | |
is sovereignty back to the Westminster Parliament, to get | :25:50. | :25:52. | |
control back of our democracy, control of our economy, get control | :25:53. | :25:56. | |
back of our borders, that involves treaty change. David Cameron clearly | :25:57. | :25:59. | |
isn't even asking for that. What he's asking for, the shopping list, | :26:00. | :26:04. | |
as far as we know, is a simple set of questions. He's, despite the | :26:05. | :26:08. | |
economic crisis in the eurozone, despite the immigration crisis, when | :26:09. | :26:13. | |
actually arguably, he could be making significant demands, he's set | :26:14. | :26:17. | |
his sites very, very low. He should be setting his sights at a much | :26:18. | :26:21. | |
higher target. But he's setting his sights at a low target and he seems | :26:22. | :26:25. | |
to be expecting to miss it. The target on benefits and trying to | :26:26. | :26:30. | |
restrict the tax subsidies, tax credits to migration through the | :26:31. | :26:33. | |
benefits system that, for you, is not big enough, he needs control of | :26:34. | :26:38. | |
the border in full? This isn't a referendum about the benefits | :26:39. | :26:41. | |
system. It is a referendum about our membership of the European Union. Of | :26:42. | :26:49. | |
course, Ukip and both the out campaigns we have are making a | :26:50. | :26:53. | |
strong case that we can survive outside the European Union, but we | :26:54. | :26:59. | |
can thrive. We will make that case until referendum day. Let me ask | :27:00. | :27:05. | |
Radek Shikorski whether if Britain was to leave, vote to leave, WWEed' | :27:06. | :27:12. | |
have to negotiate -- we'd have to negotiate with access to the | :27:13. | :27:17. | |
European market, and the terms, how easy would it be for Britain to | :27:18. | :27:21. | |
negotiate trade deals with partners with whom the EU has trade deals? | :27:22. | :27:28. | |
Well, let me just also pick a point on what Suzanne has said. You do | :27:29. | :27:30. | |
have control over your borders. You're not part of the Schengen | :27:31. | :27:38. | |
area. In fact, I was taking the EuroStar from Paris to London and | :27:39. | :27:43. | |
you had British border control in Paris. Of course, we still have to | :27:44. | :27:47. | |
have the free movement of people. And controls in Calais. Let's not | :27:48. | :27:52. | |
get bogged down. We have a bit of control but not full control. How | :27:53. | :27:58. | |
easy will it be for us to negotiate trade deals and the like, if we | :27:59. | :28:05. | |
leave? Well, this would be the mother of all divorce cases. | :28:06. | :28:09. | |
Divorces like this are always messy and very expensive. If you were to | :28:10. | :28:16. | |
leave, you would need to conclude new trade agreements with over 100 | :28:17. | :28:20. | |
countries. I suspect you wouldn't get as good a deal on your own as we | :28:21. | :28:28. | |
get as the EU, when the commission negotiates on our behalf, | :28:29. | :28:31. | |
representing us, the largest economy on earth. Also remember, that for | :28:32. | :28:37. | |
the continent, trade with the UK is about 10% of our trade. Whereas for | :28:38. | :28:44. | |
you, the UK, your trade with the continent is 50% of your trade, no | :28:45. | :28:50. | |
prizes are given as to who has the advantage in such negotiation. | :28:51. | :28:55. | |
Suzanne Evans, you say we have to negotiate treaty change for you to | :28:56. | :28:58. | |
be satisfied. We will have to negotiate treaty change if we leave, | :28:59. | :29:03. | |
aren't we? We will have to negotiate a free trade deal. What people | :29:04. | :29:06. | |
always forget, they talk about the EU as being the only negotiating | :29:07. | :29:10. | |
factor here. Of course, at the moment, we have a seat on the World | :29:11. | :29:13. | |
Trade Organisation that we are not allowed to sit on. Once we leave the | :29:14. | :29:17. | |
European Union we take back our seat on the World Trade Organisation. | :29:18. | :29:20. | |
Then we have that powerful body behind us in order to secure free | :29:21. | :29:27. | |
trade deals. To pick up on what was said, the European Union needs us in | :29:28. | :29:30. | |
terms of trade far more than we actually need them. We have a 50 | :29:31. | :29:34. | |
billion trade deficit with the European Union, which means that we | :29:35. | :29:38. | |
actually buy a lot more from them and they could not do without our | :29:39. | :29:41. | |
trade. That's the simple matter of fact. If you talk to somebody, I | :29:42. | :29:47. | |
remember a few years ago, Sir Dig by Jones, the former president of the | :29:48. | :29:51. | |
CBI said such is the European Union's need of Britain that he | :29:52. | :29:55. | |
reckoned we would be negotiating a free trade deal with the EU upon | :29:56. | :30:00. | |
brexit very quickly, within a matter of hours. There's a long way between | :30:01. | :30:07. | |
the two of you on that. We'd better drill down to that later. Thanks | :30:08. | :30:08. | |
both very much. The Indian Prime Minister, Narendra | :30:09. | :30:11. | |
Modi, visits the UK this week. And it means that | :30:12. | :30:14. | |
for the third time in about three weeks, there will be a controversial | :30:15. | :30:16. | |
foreign leader here, generating Modi is Hindu nationalist, | :30:17. | :30:19. | |
who was Chief Ninister in Gujarat state back in 2002, when communal | :30:20. | :30:23. | |
rioting there caused the death Our reporter, Secunder Kermani, has | :30:24. | :30:25. | |
been talking to one of the British Prime Minister Modi is coming to | :30:26. | :30:43. | |
London... Narendra Modi was boycotted by Britain for a decade. | :30:44. | :30:46. | |
Now he's India's Prime Minister and this week will get a massive | :30:47. | :30:50. | |
reception at Wembley Stadium and an overnight stay with David Cameron at | :30:51. | :30:54. | |
Chequers. That's angered human rights activists, who projected this | :30:55. | :30:58. | |
image on the Parliament last night. Night. They accuse him of being a | :30:59. | :31:05. | |
Hindu fundamentalist who allowed deadly communal riots to unfold in | :31:06. | :31:10. | |
2002 while in charge of Gujarat, something he denies. Hindu mobs | :31:11. | :31:16. | |
burned their neighbours alive and raped women, while the police and | :31:17. | :31:20. | |
authorities were accused of standing back and at times encouraging it. | :31:21. | :31:28. | |
The violence began when a trainful of Hindu pilgrims was set alight. | :31:29. | :31:37. | |
Many Muslims were killed. There was a big gang of people surrounding us. | :31:38. | :31:46. | |
We were pleading for our lives, showing our passports, saying we | :31:47. | :31:50. | |
were from the UK, but no, they didn't want anything to do with it. | :31:51. | :31:55. | |
They said to us, take your trousers down, we want the to see if you've | :31:56. | :32:00. | |
been circumcised, if you are a Muslim. If you are, we'll kill you. | :32:01. | :32:07. | |
I got stabbed in the leg. Hit in the head. God knows how I'm still here | :32:08. | :32:12. | |
today. Imran was on his first trip to India, with his uncle Syed and | :32:13. | :32:20. | |
their friends. Driving from the Taj Mahal into Gujarat they were | :32:21. | :32:23. | |
attacked by a mob. This is what was left of their car. Despite his | :32:24. | :32:28. | |
injuries Imran survived. The family only later discovered how the others | :32:29. | :32:34. | |
were killed. Killed. They had lost consciousness. They had been taken | :32:35. | :32:42. | |
to a nearby factory and they had been tortured and they had been | :32:43. | :32:51. | |
brutalised and murdered. Narendra Modi, a self declared Hindu | :32:52. | :32:56. | |
nationalist, was cheer Minister of Gujarat at the time. No case against | :32:57. | :33:01. | |
Modi has been successful so far. He strongly denies any wrongdoing, | :33:02. | :33:05. | |
though he once said he regretted Muslim suffering as he would a puppy | :33:06. | :33:10. | |
being run over by a car. His critics say he should not be getting this | :33:11. | :33:13. | |
kind of welcome from Britain. They've behaved in a very shameless | :33:14. | :33:21. | |
way, because they are no longer putting human rights and what | :33:22. | :33:28. | |
happened in 2002 on the agenda. That's quite disgusting. The English | :33:29. | :33:38. | |
Government has shown a lack of sensitivity towards family and this | :33:39. | :33:45. | |
isn't acceptable. After the murders, the families travelled to India to | :33:46. | :33:48. | |
try and gather evidence along with the Foreign Office. But they still | :33:49. | :33:53. | |
haven't got justice. Six men accused of the murders were acquit canned | :33:54. | :33:57. | |
earlier this year after witnesses turned hostile. Human rights groups | :33:58. | :34:02. | |
say many are intimidated. With Modi due to arrive in Britain, the family | :34:03. | :34:07. | |
wants an apology, justice and for the remains of their relatives to at | :34:08. | :34:13. | |
last be returned. The saddest thing is 13 years on we still, this | :34:14. | :34:19. | |
remains in India of the family, haven't been able to get hold of and | :34:20. | :34:27. | |
put closure. Having an apology would be a start. And not to just push it | :34:28. | :34:33. | |
under the carpet. Until 2012, Britain cut all ties with Modi | :34:34. | :34:38. | |
because of what happened in Gujarat. America even denied him a visa, but | :34:39. | :34:43. | |
that's changed as he has risen in power in India. Here politicians | :34:44. | :34:49. | |
like Priti Patel have championed him as someone Britain should engage | :34:50. | :34:53. | |
with. The significant ran date that Narendra Modi has is as a politician | :34:54. | :35:00. | |
inspiring to see... The family say beganment shouldn't mean a welcome | :35:01. | :35:04. | |
with open arms. They want to do business with India, that's up to | :35:05. | :35:13. | |
them, but at least honour the dignity of the families, the | :35:14. | :35:17. | |
victims. What meme would you like to send out to the British Government? | :35:18. | :35:23. | |
They are actually not justlying what happened in Gujarat but they are | :35:24. | :35:29. | |
actually perverting British values. When Modi came to power last year | :35:30. | :35:33. | |
there were fears of more communal violence. In September a Muslim man | :35:34. | :35:37. | |
was lunched after wrongly being accused of eating beef, considered | :35:38. | :35:43. | |
sacred by Hindus. Modi has been accused of not condemning it | :35:44. | :35:47. | |
strongly enough. But does the Government here care about that when | :35:48. | :35:51. | |
lucrative contracts are at stake? If we don't honour the memories, if we | :35:52. | :35:56. | |
don't speak for the truth, then history can repeat itself. Does it | :35:57. | :36:03. | |
make you feel like the Government is, cares about you, effectively? | :36:04. | :36:04. | |
No. Simple as that. Imran Dawood ending that report | :36:05. | :36:09. | |
from Secunder Kermani. The geneticist John Hardy, from UCL, | :36:10. | :36:13. | |
finds himself a couple He was awarded something less | :36:14. | :36:16. | |
well known but considerably more It's called a breakthrough prize, | :36:17. | :36:21. | |
funded by a Russian billionaire with a bit of help from Facebook | :36:22. | :36:28. | |
founder Mark Zuckerberg and others. Now, awards were made to several | :36:29. | :36:35. | |
scientists, and the awards event appeared to be modelled on | :36:36. | :36:37. | |
the Oscars rather than the Nobels. Here is John Hardy and others | :36:38. | :36:40. | |
having collected their prizes. The whole thing appears designed | :36:41. | :36:46. | |
to bring glamour to science, to It has to be said that celeb label | :36:47. | :36:51. | |
is not one that fits Professor Hardy very well, who is generally seen | :36:52. | :36:58. | |
as more substance than style. And I'm happy to say he joins | :36:59. | :37:02. | |
us now from California. Good evening to you. How did you | :37:03. | :37:14. | |
find the ceremony? Not the sort of thing you are accustomed to, I would | :37:15. | :37:18. | |
imagine? No, it was great actually. Of course it was woks. I really | :37:19. | :37:22. | |
appreciated it. Maybe I could get used to it. We do think of | :37:23. | :37:27. | |
scientists as not worrying about how they dress or look, worrying about | :37:28. | :37:31. | |
the substance, not style. Do you want science to have more glitz, for | :37:32. | :37:37. | |
goodness sake? I think it is good that scientists are held in more | :37:38. | :37:40. | |
esteem and so on. That's a very good thing. Not me personally of course. | :37:41. | :37:46. | |
Anyone who knows me knows that I'm not famous for my dress sense, so I | :37:47. | :37:51. | |
think there's a good thing for science, science itself to be made | :37:52. | :37:56. | |
more glamorous perhaps. For sure I do. Tell us a little about what it | :37:57. | :38:02. | |
is you won the prize for. It is a series of things to do with | :38:03. | :38:08. | |
dementias really. We found in the early 1990s in Alzheimer's disease | :38:09. | :38:17. | |
mute aces in the ameloid gene, which is deposited in Alzheimer's disease. | :38:18. | :38:22. | |
That led us to suggest that amyloid is the essence of the start of the | :38:23. | :38:26. | |
disease. Later we found other genetic causes which fitted with the | :38:27. | :38:30. | |
process started from amyloid and going through other things to cell | :38:31. | :38:34. | |
death and then to dementia and so on. So it allowed us to map out a | :38:35. | :38:39. | |
pathway to disease. What we of course hope is that this pathway to | :38:40. | :38:43. | |
disease will be something we can intervene in and stop the disease | :38:44. | :38:47. | |
process. That's of course the purpose of the work. It is great to | :38:48. | :38:54. | |
have it acknowledged, obviously. You won about ?2 million, but you have | :38:55. | :38:58. | |
to pay tax on that. How much do you get out of the end of that? I don't | :38:59. | :39:04. | |
know exactly, but something well over, considerably over ?1 million. | :39:05. | :39:08. | |
And of course it is an amazing, of course that's amazing. Of course it | :39:09. | :39:11. | |
is. What are you going to do with the money? Is it one where you are | :39:12. | :39:15. | |
obliged to give it back to science, or are you allowed to buy a two | :39:16. | :39:21. | |
bedroom flat in Camden with it? That's right, I am allowed to buy a | :39:22. | :39:27. | |
two bedroom flat in Camden. We are trying to build a new Institute of | :39:28. | :39:32. | |
Neurology building and an institute of dementia there. I'm going try to | :39:33. | :39:37. | |
push that fundraising for that new building along, but yes I am going | :39:38. | :39:40. | |
to build a little house in London. That's exactly what I will do. It | :39:41. | :39:44. | |
doesn't go very far if you want to by a house in London. This kind of | :39:45. | :39:49. | |
thing isn't a substitute for serious science funding presumably. No, it | :39:50. | :39:54. | |
isn't, but I think it is very important that the public realise | :39:55. | :40:00. | |
what science is about. Indirectly I think that helps science funding. I | :40:01. | :40:06. | |
think it is very important to scientists that we explain what we | :40:07. | :40:10. | |
are doing. That's a virtuous circle. If we explain what we are doing to | :40:11. | :40:13. | |
the public, the public put pressure on the politicians and science | :40:14. | :40:17. | |
funding increases. So if we can get into a virtuous circle for science | :40:18. | :40:22. | |
funding, that's a great outcome. And you've worked in the UK, you have | :40:23. | :40:26. | |
worked in the United States. I wonder if three sentence which is of | :40:27. | :40:31. | |
those do you think is now a better environment for scientists to | :40:32. | :40:38. | |
discover things in. You know, America had consistently good | :40:39. | :40:41. | |
funding, which hasn't been the case in the UK. It goes up and down with | :40:42. | :40:46. | |
political will. One thing that we have in the UK has they don't have | :40:47. | :40:51. | |
in the US, which is immensely powerful and for example the | :40:52. | :40:55. | |
Institute of Neurology is very important, we have the NHS and the | :40:56. | :41:02. | |
single unitary NHS behind us, which makes clinical research so much | :41:03. | :41:06. | |
better in the UK than it is in the US. So some things are easier in the | :41:07. | :41:12. | |
US but much research is better in the UK. John, well done. Thank you | :41:13. | :41:14. | |
very much for joining us. It's a pleasure. Thank you very much. | :41:15. | :41:18. | |
If you had a bad weekend, spare a thought for the customers | :41:19. | :41:22. | |
at the IHOP restaurant in Meridian, Mississipi, on Saturday | :41:23. | :41:24. | |
night where a 50-foot-wide sink hole gobbled up the carpark. | :41:25. | :41:29. |