08/02/2016 Newsnight

That American election - it's time for Round 2.

Tonight, we're in New Hampshire, watching momentum gather for Bernie

I ask Hillary Clinton what she makes of it.

Can you just explain for us how you understand the momentum towards

Bernie, at the moment? Well, you know, I - let me start by saying, I

am really happy to see so many young people involved in the political

process. Back in the other big

contest of 2016 - Europe. The head of the international crime

fighters Europol tells us why If UK is no longer a member

of the EU, it wouldn't have the same access to that well regulated,

well developed capability. I think, therefore, it would make it

harder for Britain to fight The great debate on Europe -

how would Mrs Thatcher vote in the referendum, and is it

sensible to even speculate Two people close to her tell

us what they think. Yes, the state votes tomorrow in its

presidential election primary. You will be reminded over the next

48 hours that the state slogan is Live Free or Die,

and it is a state where the hopes of some of the trailing candidates

will surely be brutally murdered. But watch the results carefully,

because most new presidents - with the some recent exceptions -

have risen to that office after winning the New

Hampshire contest. Emily is in Manchester,

New Hampshire. Good evening from New Hampshire,

where voters are preparing to head for the polls in the first

primary of the US election. Over the past few weeks,

momentum has been gathering for Bernie Sanders, whose soaring

lead over Hillary Clinton brought out a sharp rebuke from

Bill Clinton this weekend. The Vermont senator believes

in new politics and has begun to attract young,

female voters in droves. America's answer to Jereym Corbyn

with a Brooklyn accent. Tonight, we ask if the momentum

is particular to this state or if the revolution of the left

speaks to a wider dissatisfaction with American politcs and the need

for long-term change. We start tonight in Sanders' home

state, neighbouring Vermont. There are different ways

of expressing your commitment to a candidate - the T-shirt,

the bumper sticker and then A permanent tattoo

of his head on your skin. Here in Bernie Sanders'

home state of Vermont, they are offering them free to any

supporter who wants one. Sure enough, his fans -

let's call them Sandernistas - It's Jenny's turn -

she's a psychology student I never voted in a presidential

election before. I think that even if he doesn't get

the nomination, I think that this is just the beginning

of something very, very large. "Bernie's got my back",

Danika tells me. She peels off the

platter to show me. You don't worry that

a tattoo is for life, No, I think actually -

to me, because he is such a brave person and, like, his message

and what he is doing is so iconic The boss has done more than 70

this past week. Have you had any really bizarre

requests? A middle finger, and just recently

someone wanted the It's a little darker

than our lightest roast. It's not just tattoos,

it's coffee too. The Capital Grounds Cafe

is marketing a new flavour they call They give away 20% of what they make

to Sanders' veterans. They come in and buy bags,

bags and bags every day. What is striking is the absence

a party machine behind all this. It's grass roots activism

as its most radical. Small businesses who hear Sanders

looking out for them Sanders is the man with

the momentum right now. His brand of socialism -

anti-Wall Street, pro-income equality and cannabis legalisation -

appeals to the young The same kind of crowd that voted

for Jeremy Corbyn back in September. With his shock of dishevelled hair

and specs, he is embraced - or cultivated - as the grumpy

Jewish Brooklyn boy out of Seinfeld. Indeed, its creator Larry David

frequently impersonates him. The skit on the satirical

Saturday Night Live show plays to the perception his voter base

is largely Caucasian. The population of New Hampshire,

where he has a massive lead, And that is something

Hillary Clinton wants This is her last Town Hall

appearance before New Hampshire A stage-managed affair that is meant

to seem folksy. For half an hour ahead of the event,

they have been trying to fill the camera shot behind her

with young Asian and black faces - a subliminal reminder of how much

wider her appeal base is. I'm still trying to work out

whether the questions are all planted when suddenly

she chooses me. Can you just explain for us how

you understand the momentum Let me start by saying I am really

happy to see so many young people I know Senator Sanders has a very

big base of young voters, and they are not supporting me,

and I just want any of you, and others that you know,

to know I am supporting you. Her husband, the former President,

wasn't quite so measured, taking aim at Sanders

and his supporters, and his Secretary of

State Madeleine Albright then chastised young women

for not choosing Hilary. Just remember, there is a special

place in hell for women These attacks tell you they

are spooked by Sanders, and although no-one will say

the words out loud, they worry he may be having the same effect

on the young and disaffected that In many states, if you declare

as an independent voter you can't vote for a Republican or Democrats

in the primary contest, but in New Hampshire

that is not the care. As an independent, you can go along

on the day and vote for which ever In other words, this particular

contest has that whole And it's estimated that as many

as 40% could be independents here. As with Obama, it's all

about whether Sanders can When you talk to Bernie

supporters here in Vermont, they say it's not a fad, a passing

phase, they like what he has done to the state here as Senator

Sanders, and they feel whether or not he wins

the nomination, the movement behind And don't forget New Hampshire

is Sanders's backyard. A large block of that progressive

white vote and people But from here, the race gets faster,

and much more racially diverse. Whether the people of South Carolina

will be so ready to feel the burn, well, that is where things start

to get interesting. Before we get to South Carolina,

there's the voting right here. Well, I'm joined now

by Nomiki Konst, a Democratic Party analyst and founder

of the anti-corruption group The Accountability Project,

who describes herself Also here in New Hampshire we have

Joe Klein, political columnist for Time magazine and long-time

observer of the Clinton family. Starting with you, you heard

Madeleine Allbright's line where she said there is a special circle of

hell reserved for women who don't work to help women. She was talking

to those Sanders' supporters who are female. I respect Madeleine all

bright. She's a crusader for women all around the world. I enjoy that

quote when it's used in different ways. I don't think that's the right

setting. Other Hillary supporters have said that has well. The problem

with the millennium femme nists is that they don't feel included in the

process. They feel that the institution of the Democratic Party

has been running candidates that are out of touch with their concerns and

their needs and they weren't there to fight for them in key moments,

because they were more concerned with winning, more concerned with

working with the other side. Working with the other side is very

important, but you have to have a back bone. So, from my perspective

as a Bernie supporters, I support him because he's attacking the root

cause of income inequality, the root cause of gender inequality. That's

Wall Street. They're campaigning against equal pay. When you see the

big guns coming out, Clinton, Allbright, Hillary Clinton doesn't

need those people... Is she a big gun? I thought what she said is

outrageous. She wouldn't say that about Marine Le Pen would she? She

was just saying it about Bernie and about Hillary. Feminism has been the

most successful political movement in my lifetime. We're going to see a

woman president before very long. Women are markedly

woman president before very long. I can tell you that. To even -

that's so 25 years ago what she said. Why are the women, I know the

tattoo parlour is not represented, but a lot of young women coming in

and they're all talking about Bernie Sanders, not Hillary Clinton, when

Shh... It should be -- should be "her moment". Millenniums are very

familiar with her. She's been part of their lives since they were born.

They are looking for a woman to rise up. It would be important for the

Democratic Party to take note. We need a bench of women, not just one

woman or three women. I agree on some points, are superior, but we

have a lot of work to do. Similar to LGBT issues. They've had a very

successful campaign. Women have been fighting for 25 years who aren't

ready to move over. I want to talk about the actual campaign. We're

hearing now from politicalo, that Bill Clinton and Hillary Clinton are

not happy with the way it's going, there's going to be strategy

changes. That's never happened before (! ) Every single campaign.

What they're talking about is some dissatisfaction with their pollster.

They fired their pollster in the last election. They go through

pollsters the way through people go through underwear. This is a pretty

classic Clinton campaign. The problem, her big problem is this:

She was, when she was in her youth, she was the moral equivalent of a

Bernie Sanders supporter. She supported George McGovern. She

worked for him in Texas. I asked her what would you, how would you

convince the younger version of yourself to vote for you now? And it

isn't an easy answer. Her strengths is the fact that she works like a

dog. She knows an awful lot. She knows the world in a way that Bernie

doesn't. And those are tough things to get across to younger people. Is

this the beginning of a game changer? When we talk about

momentum, this is the kind of momentum that we saw for Obama in

2008, reaching voters that nobody had reached before. But the

difference is that Barack Obama was a moderate. Hillary was to his left

on health care, if you remember. In this case, we'll see what happens.

I've seen this happen once in my lifetime, that was George McGovern.

As a result the Democratic Party was ruined for 20 years. The difference

is there, just to make note, the country was a much more conservative

country in the 60s. Today the country is more progressive on

social issues. That's where the cue for the Democratic Party is. They

need to move further to the left, not start at the middle and

negotiate to the left. I think social issues are not what this

campaign will be about. The Republicans are moving to the left

on things like gay marriage, scurrying to the left. What we have

to be thinking about is how do you counteract a nativist,

anti-immigrant, anti-Muslim movement. Just over there, Donald

Trump's having a rally tonight and there are going to be thousands of

people there. Do you think that's where the Republican nomination is

going to end up? I don't know if he can win it. They have about a third

of their constituents in his corner. The rest of the party will have to

consolidate against that. I think that whoever gets the nomination is

going to move in that direction toward a kind of nativist,

anti-immigrant, no nothing, what the movement has historically been

called here -- know nothing. Do we think we will see Michael Bloomberg

enter the race? There's only one thing that he would do if he came

into this race, if it was Trump versus Bernie sort of race, he would

elect Donald Trump president. That would truly be tragic. I don't know

about that. Nothing is worse than having two billionaires in the race

talking about income inequality. Good point. Hey, I won one! In six

hours' time, the polls open here. There are tiny places, about 35

voters in all there, but they will be the first ones to go to the polls

and those results will probably be in by the time you wake up tomorrow

morning. David Cameron's reported pro-EU

referendum campaign is apparently going to focus on security -

or scaring the hell out of people Today, for example, he said EU

withdrawal could help terrorists by undermining European

security co-operation. Not that the campaign has started

yet, you understand. Now it so happens that the man

responsible for security cooperation He's a Brit called Rob Wainright,

and he's the director of Europol, But before we got on to that,

we discussed a more down-to-earth problem on his mind,

the small matter of big banknotes - The issue is: Who are

high-denomination notes for, except drug dealers,

money launderers, human traffickers and

organised criminals? Today, an eminent former banker

published a paper arguing These high-denomination banknotes

are no longer used very much They're used for a tiny

percentage of transactions. However, they are the preferred

means of payment for criminals, tax evaders, terrorists

and those who are giving No-one can say

they weren't warned. Whereas a million quid in 50 pound

notes has the bulk of say, A million quid in euros

will be smaller than one. Crime fighters like Europol's Rob

Wainright think it's an important issue - as he explained when I sat

down with him earlier. Why does anyone need a 500 euro

note, given that most of us have I would be surprised

if many of the viewers have seen one or done a business

transaction in one. To be fair, in some eurozone

countries like Germany, there is a different cultural

background and practise That doesn't explain why,

when we are moving to generally a cashless economy, the amount

of 500 euro notes that have been produced and circulated

is still increasing year on year, and accounts for one third

of the value of all euro You know, these are big issues

to be explained away. You must be a bit annoyed

about Luxembourg in particular, I think produced almost

twice its GDP in 500 euro That is an extraordinary bit of note

issue by Luxembourg. Our report showed that,

but across the eurozone as a whole, you know, we didn't really get

information that satisfied us as to what the legitimate use was,

while we are getting more and more evidence of the way

in which criminals are using it in particular, so I think serious

questions are being asked. A lot of evidence now,

and I hope the European Central Bank will take a long hard

look at this issue. It is interesting that we got

into this in the first place, though, because it was predicted

by some, it was talked about that this was going to be

something that would happen, you were creating something much

bigger than the 100 dollar bill, which might have been the currency

of choice until the euro came along, It is odd that the Europeans allowed

this to happen. What I am presenting is simply

the view from the police world, about how we see this as something

that is definitely facilitating criminal,

and to a certain extent activity. Terrorism, obviously,

a global phenomenon. In Europe there are National Police

forces and then Europol sits But you don't have the power

to arrest people, do you? No, instead we provide

an intelligence gateway that connects over 600 different agencies

exchanging intelligence That allows us to track better

what is increasingly Britain is in the early stage

of a debate about whether it should be in the European Union,

and one of the reasons many people don't want to be is they feel

there is a creeping pace So you are saying, if we stay in,

you do not think it will happen, that we will get a European police

force, that British voters will not be able to control

or have any sway over? No, we have just reformed Europol

and given it a new legal framework and it is not as a European FBI,

it is something that is very operational in nature,

in terms of giving them tools that the national authorities need

to fight fight crime and terrorism. You know, and the current

British Government has consciously opted into that new version

of European police force - European police cross-border

cooperation centre, because it has decided that is what it needs

in the face of an increased international threat

from terrorism and crime. David Cameron has warned that

Britain might lose information on what I think he called

"terrorists running round Europe". I think what the Prime Minister's

referring to, of course, is the extent to which over the last

three or four decades there has developed in Europe a sophisticated

architecture for sharing intelligence, and co-operating

in the fight against Europol alone, we are helping

to co-ordinate 40,000 cases I think if the UK is no

longer a member of the UK, it wouldn't have the same access

to that well-regulated, I think, therefore, it would make it

harder for Britain to fight I am sure Britain can respond

with alternative arrangements, but they will be more costly,

and they will not be as effective, I think that is probably

what the Prime Minister is saying. There has been some talk

about the Norwegian model of not The Norwegians, they are not

full members of Europol but they have an association

agreement with Europol that puts Well, certainly not in the middle,

at the periphery, because they are not full members,

so they don't have direct access to database in the way the UK

currently has, they are not leading any intelligence projects,

they don't have people So you know, it's a model

of membership, but as I said earlier, certainly not one

that is as effective as the one that the UK and other member

states currently enjoy. Are you going to be public about how

you will vote in the referendum? I think people listening

to you will probably draw their own conclusions

and believe they know how you will vote, but will you be

public, or will you stand back This is not about me,

this is about the future of Britain in Europe,

and in this particular part of it, about making sure

that we have the most secure platform to protect British

businesses, and citizens from ever more dangerous threats of terrorism

and other forms of serious crime. Of course I will be voting

for the UK to remain part of the EU because of what I see on an every

day basis about the benefits, and particularly in my world,

that the UK is getting from the EU. Rob Wainwright, thanks

for your company. You might have thought the Syrian

war had reached a kind of stalemate. Well, in the last few days,

things have changed. With Russian help, the Assad

government has made gains, and it is causing problems

for refugees, for Turkey, where they want to escape

to and possibly for Europe beyond. Our diplomatic editor, Mark Urban,

reports on the changing situation In fighting round Aleppo, Syria's

biggest city, President Assad's forces have been making progress.

Supported by hundreds of Russian air strikes, they have taken the

initiative just as diplomacy has stalled.

We saw during the last week, during the last several days they have

basically waited to the failure of the negotiation process, I can

assume within a certain time period, if the Russians managed to, well, to

put enough military pressure on this Saudi supported opposition, and if

they agree to launch a negotiation process, probably we will see the

intensity of fighting on the ground going down.

Since last autumn, the Syrian Army, with Russian air support has been

engaging in a multi-pronged offensive. By November, they had

broken through to an air base south-east of Aleppo, in January

they started making gains in a province and a couple of days ago,

cut the rebel corridor into Aleppo. All of this bombing and ground

fighting has led hundreds of thousands to leave their homes, some

estimates put it as high as three-quarters of a million people,

with anything up to ?100,000 thousand moving in the past week.

Week. Into an area south of Turkey. That all exacerbates tensions

between their Government and Russia. Since the Downing of Russian plane

by Turkey, because of its violation of the Turkish airspace last

October, the relationship between Ankara and Moscow has become

confrontational. So much so, it is now functioning as a dePacteau safe

zone against Turkey. That is limiting Turkey's ability to project

power across the border. As for how many people are trapped, between

advancing pro Assad forces on the Turkish border, it is certainly in

the tens of thousands. Turkey has stopped them coming in, caught

between this fresh humanitarian crisis, and apprenticeship to stop

refugees moving on to Europe. Chancellor Merkel visiting Turkey

today, vented her frustration with the Syrian Government, and its

Russian backers. TRANSLATION: We are now over the

last few days not only appalled by shocked by the human suffering is of

tens of thousands of people through bombing attack, and also bombing

attacks originating from the Russian side.

As to what people are fleeing, the UN panel today reported on gross

human rights abuses by all sides in the Syrian conflict. It accused the

Government of crimes against humanity and called for sanctions

against senior Syrian officials. The mass scale of deaths suggests that

the Government of Syria is responsible for acts that amount to

crimes against humanity. Turkey may well have to open its border to let

in the new wave of refugees, ideas of establishing a safe haven inside

Syria long favoured by the Turkish Government now seem to have been

forgotten. There is a very real risk that creating that type of buffer

zone could spark conflict between Turkey and Russia R We are dealing

with two political systems headed by the leaders who sometimes are led

not by the logic of the event, not by the pragmatism, but I would say

by the way, how they feel, by their passion.

There are some, in western foreign defence ministries who privately

hope Russia's backing of President Assad might finely brings the Civil

War to an end. So far it is up to the suffering without a clear

The Daily Mail writer Peter Oborne has just returned from Syria's

largest city - or once largest - Aleppo.

He's written vividly about the destruction

and destitution he found there, and he's with me now.

Thank you for coming in. We have some of the photos which we will

show awe you speak, but it is amazing you can get in and find a

hotel to stay in when you are there Yes, it is a difficult journey from

Damascus but they have re-opened the road in. They have lifted the siege

of Aleppo, you are able to get in, and there is a hotel called the pull

man hotel, freezing cold, very damp, I was the only guest there, apart

from a French TV journalist, and no hot water. There is electricity

about eight hours a day I reckoned. The internet doesn't work so you are

pretty isolated. The population of Aleppo is, it has plummeted. It is

less than half what it was. It is shocking. You get a sense of a city

where the population has gone, and particularly among the Christians,

down from about 200,000, before the crisis, wonderful ancient Christian

community going down. We are looking at some of the pictures there. The

rubble left. Empty streets. My regime minder took that. I wandered

round. The Christian population down from 200,000 to about 20,000. I

talked to the pastors, desperate to get their congregations to stay, and

the imams desperate to get them to stay but it is very hard. Who has

stayed? There are still hundreds of thousands of people in Aleppo, who

are they? Almost everybody seems to be a government employee, teachers,

lots and lots of refugees, from the east of the city, who fled news a or

the Free Syrian Army. They fled the rebels to get into the Government

part. Aleppo university, there are 20 great big dormitory block, 17 are

full of refugees, ten or 20 to a little room for two people, and I

wandered round there. So like Agatha Christie's hotel where she wrote her

novel, the Baron Hotel the refugee, they have harrowing stories. You

said no basic amenities in your hotel. What about important

amenities like drinking water? Yes, there is no water, running water

coming into Aleppo. It is the plant has been stopped by Isis, and so

what you see everywhere is digging wells, people carting water round,

and, it is a huge expense, because you have to buy it from the private

sector because state water has gone. You say the siege, it is not under

siege, because people think of Aleppo being under siege but it has

not. It has been reported widely. What has happened, this is the urn

thing point probably of the war s that the Turkish border, the supply

line to Isis, news racks, to the Jihadi groups and the FSA has been

blocked and it has been encircled by the Syrian army, plus with the great

help from the Russian, and so it is alnews a is under siege now, instead

of the other way round, and, Aleppo was under siege most of the winner,

nobody reported that, you couldn't get in or out from Damascus or

anywhere else. Now it is suddenly, the, the opposition forces who are

being besieged, that becomes a story, it tells you which side the

media has been on. You met an interesting journalist

when you were there, tell us his story. Yes a wonderful old boy. I

asked, "Where's the newspaper? I was told there's one paper left. There

had been 35. This old boy started out in 1960, 35 papers. I went into

his office, up some old smelly stairs. He said, his story was, it

was a daily paper, flourishing before the war. A weekly paper then,

paper shortages. The journalists started to get threatened. They go

on the net. There's no internet. Right and they told me they do it

through 3 G, that's beyond me. It's a mobile thing. You go there, you

see it with your own eyes, we've been hearing about it, in just a few

sentences, has it changed your view of anything, your way of looking at

the conflict at all? You meet these amazing stories of heroism, for

instance, I went to the Education Department. I met this teacher. She

spent five days making her journey which before the war had taken 40

minutes to get from east Aleppo and, to get her wages. She was going to

go back. Isis-held area. She said Syrian forces were advancing and

will shortly reach it. She said, "I will be held along with my husband

and children as a human shield." And she was going back. The heroism, I

felt, just the stoicism and bravery and you're always meeting - the

doctors were wonderful in the hospital. You meet these incredible

people. Thank you very much. Celebrity endorsement

is likely to play some part But what about the endorsements

from beyond the grave? A strange battle has opened up

on how Margaret Thatcher would vote It was prompted by a piece

in the Sunday Times from her former The debate maybe gives us more

insight into the opinions of those arguing about it, than of

the Iron Lady herself. Our political editor,

David Grossman, has been looking Trying to work out what Kier Hardy

would have made of Twitter or basha kan castle's view of the Qatar World

Cup seems like a dull parlour game. One deceased boll Titian's view of

-- politician's view of matters is now sought. If you want to own a bit

of Mrs Thatcher history you could worse than this place, her London

residence after she left Downing Street. On the market for something

like ?30 million. But her political legacy is priceless, worth far more

to the remain campaign and leave campaign, each side in the

referendum wants to claim that she would have voted their way. Writing

in the Sunday Times yesterday, her former advisor suggested she might

have raged more mightily during the negotiations than David Cameron, but

ultimately she would have gone along with what is on offer, indeed

negotiated something similar herself in. Reply, Lord young, who served in

Mrs Thatcher's Cabinet said, "If Margaret were with us today she may

not lead Brexit, she may cajole the campaign leaders to get their act

together and when the day came would vote out." So what's the truth? Who

better to adjudicate than the man she chose to write her story. As her

biographer, I always make sure never to say what Margaret Thatcher would

have done because I don't know. What I do know is what she did do. It's

interesting that people want to raise this question all the time. I

understand why. Because she went on a long journey about Europe, which

had many rocky places and pit falls. She learned a lot. She changed her

mind quite a lot. The starting point of that journey found form in

knitwear, campaigning here in 1975 for Britain to stay in what was then

the European economic community. It's very fitting that you should

keep an all-night vigil, under the statue of Sir Winston Churchill, the

first person to have the great vision of working together for peace

in Europe. But as the European project became more about political

union and pooled sovereignty, Margaret Thatcher famously resisted.

No, no, no. She came very much to dislike European methods of doing

business. She thought this is a male club. This is a load of men having

dinner to decide everything, the fate of the people. You don't know

what department she is. I tell you, you don't know what department she

is. Her lecture before the first course, caused some surprise... I

made mistakes and I learned to fight. And I win. She became opposed

to the single currency and advocated a wider and looser European Union,

incorporating the newly emancipated Eastern Bloc countries. She never

advocated leaving the European Community as it was then, the whole

time she was in office. She did advocate that after she left office,

only privately. She said it to me, for example, and to many others. She

was advised that at that stage of her career, it would be too

explosive and difficult and she was too old and not terribly well and

all that sort of thing, it was really too late. But this is what

she came to believe. That contrasts between how she felt in office and

how she felt after retiring is an interesting one. Why does this

matter in in the crowd to wave off Margaret Thatcher from central

office on her last visit as PM was a young David Cameron. He cheered her

enthusiastically then. But plenty of his party's activists and supporters

now still trust her instincts on Europe more than his. So summoning

up a Thatcher endorsement for his deal would be precious indeed.

With me now are Lord Powell, private secretary and advisor

on foreign affairs and defense to Margaret Thatcher from 1983-91,

and Annunziata Rees-Mogg, a Eurosceptic and Conservative Party

Good evening. Some have criticised you for Daning to say what she would

have thought when none of us really know. You have to admit, none of us

knows. Anyone bothered to read my article, the third sentence says,

"we can't possibly know" it's not as though I didn't realise that. A

Cabinet minister said to me, look, I can't go along with this. Margaret

Thatcher would never have agrowed to it. That made me sit down and think.

I'm in the a member of any campaign. I'm not for, against. I'm not a

political party member. I just thought about. It I thought about

her history in Europe. Much of it came out in your film. She was in

the Government that took us into Europe. She led the Conservative

Party campaign to stay in Europe at the last referendum. She could have

decided then we should come out. No, she was enthusiastic, in favour. For

12 years as Prime Minister she fought, by God how she fought, to

get advantages for Britain in Europe and change Europe in ways that

suited Britain. It's not really very surprising that one thinks that

maybe she would opt to stay in Europe and go on trying to change it

for the better. For the record, are you going to vote or support the

remain side in the campaign? I don't know. I will see what's on offer. I

had assumed you were really learning your opinion of the referendum.

No-one's interested in my opinion, but I thought they might be

interested in what might be Margaret Thatcher's. Do you buy what we've

just heard? I don't think we can know. I agrow

just heard? I don't think we can sentence, I don't think we should

invoke the dead, whether it's Churchill, Maggie Thatcher or other

wonderful politicians in this country or on the other side if you

want to invoke that Hitler wanted a united Europe. These are ridiculous

things that we just can't know. How should she have voted? Let's think

of Thatcherism as an ethos, not just what she thought, how should a

Thatcherite vote? In my view of Thatcher's legacy is to believe this

the sovereignty of our nation and the freedom of the individual. And

to believe incredibly strongly in democracy. In my view, you cannot

have democracy without a demos and Europe has no dome hose to back up a

democracy. We have to lock out for our own nation and have this

referendum where one man, one vote and see what the result S A couple

of comments, I think you're being a little severe. We frequently cite

19th century politician's views on foreign policy issues. We cite

Canning... We saw Mr Thatcher invoking... It's totally

permissible. I think quoting someone and speculating as to what they

would do in different situations are two very different things. In some

ways isn't it interesting, because if you see the EU as a free trade

thing, with a lot of what people, Thatcher's disposition would say is

annoying baggage, but free trade thing. Or you might see it as a lot

of annoying baggage with a bit of free trade. Is that the schism

between different this afternoonerites? I think it's --

Thatcherites. I think it's more pernicious. It's a lack of

democratic answerability. It's a superpower trying to control our

nation. It's removing our freedom to control our borders, ultimately it

will remove our controls on our own financial systems and the ever

closer union has not been removed from the treaties under this

renegotiation. It is there and that's the direction Europe will be

heading. I think Margaret Thatcher saw being in Europe largely as

strategic terms. Particularly at a time when we were threatened by the

Soviet Union. She believed in drawing together the European

countries. Of course in Nato for defence purposes, but in EU to be

sure we didn't go to war with each other again in the future and we

were a solid block. That was a sensible thing to add to the trade

aspect of. It she saw it as an organisation which produced specific

advantages for Britain. She would now, I believe, see that we have

managed to get out of so many of the unpleasant bits of Europe, the

things that you object to. You know, we are not in the single currency.

We are not in the Schengen union. We are only about half members any way.

Why such a great objection to being semidetached members. Can I ask a

quick question on the issue of, could there be a British

Parliamentary block on issues coming out of the EU. Boris Johnson seems

behind that. Does that work? I don't believe it can work, no. It's a

chalice that the faithful have sought for a long time. The fact is,

if we reach agreements, they are international agreements, they're

binding agreements, they're registered with the UN. Sadly, I

think in terms of law, then - You can't pick and choose. Parliament

remains supreme. They could denounce the treaty and we could exit. You

can't have bits of it. Thank you both very much.

James O'Brien is here tomorrow. Until then, very good night.