Browse content similar to 18/02/2016. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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After months of preening and posturing, the official arguing | :00:07. | :00:08. | |
The Prime Minister arrives in Brussels, | :00:09. | :00:11. | |
armed with an appropriately strident metaphor. | :00:12. | :00:14. | |
If we can get a good deal, I'll take that | :00:15. | :00:19. | |
But I will not take a deal that does not meet what we need. | :00:20. | :00:24. | |
We'll ask the Ukip leader how he'd battle for Britain. | :00:25. | :00:27. | |
And Lord Mandelson knows who's side he's on. | :00:28. | :00:30. | |
I do want him to stick out for a good deal. | :00:31. | :00:33. | |
Because if he comes back with some pup, he won't be able to sell it | :00:34. | :00:37. | |
and that will pull the rug out from underneath the referendum | :00:38. | :00:39. | |
So he's right, I'm afraid, to go for the detail. | :00:40. | :00:43. | |
David Grossman's our man on the lookout in Brussels. | :00:44. | :00:49. | |
The merest whiff of a deal is in the air, not least | :00:50. | :00:56. | |
because Europe is desperate to start talking about | :00:57. | :00:57. | |
Are in Germany, they want a deal as where European power really lies. | :00:58. | :01:12. | |
Are in Germany, they want a deal as soon as possible, so they can push | :01:13. | :01:14. | |
on to discuss the refugee crisis. And not only are we in Britain, | :01:15. | :01:17. | |
Brussels, and Berlin, They try to do their best | :01:18. | :01:19. | |
to be good citizens. It is a rule of negotiations that | :01:20. | :01:39. | |
you don't know how they've gone, until they're over, when you find | :01:40. | :01:45. | |
out who was bluffing These decisive European Council | :01:46. | :01:48. | |
talks in Brussels fall It's hard to read | :01:49. | :01:51. | |
them mid-way through. But that's not going | :01:52. | :01:54. | |
to stop us trying. Our political editor | :01:55. | :01:56. | |
David Grossman is in Brussels. David, I take it the odds are | :01:57. | :02:05. | |
against us and the situation is grim? Exactly. The latest briefing | :02:06. | :02:13. | |
we got from Downing Street was that there was little or no progress at | :02:14. | :02:17. | |
the first working session. In truth we did not expect there to be much | :02:18. | :02:22. | |
progress. The first working session is when you identify the elephants | :02:23. | :02:27. | |
in the room, make them explicit. It is later that you try to reduce them | :02:28. | :02:33. | |
to a manageable side. The bilaterals will start in the next half hour and | :02:34. | :02:39. | |
during that time the legal minds of the EU will try to work out how to | :02:40. | :02:44. | |
give Britain the exemptions and status in the EU without dismantling | :02:45. | :02:48. | |
the treaties. That progress probably will happen tonight, tomorrow | :02:49. | :02:53. | |
morning. One new development that is interesting is the Belgians, | :02:54. | :02:57. | |
supported by the French, asked for explicit wording in the final | :02:58. | :03:02. | |
declaration that says it is a one-time deal for Britain. That | :03:03. | :03:06. | |
means there is no coming back after voting to come out of the EU in a | :03:07. | :03:10. | |
referendum and saying we want to go out a better deal. We put that to | :03:11. | :03:16. | |
number 10 earlier. They said they had not seen that version of a text | :03:17. | :03:22. | |
but would look at it with interest. You get the feeling they don't want | :03:23. | :03:25. | |
the idea to permeate around Britain you can vote to come out and really | :03:26. | :03:30. | |
stay in, because of negotiations at a later date. We shall see what | :03:31. | :03:33. | |
happens. In terms of the timetable, when do | :03:34. | :03:38. | |
you think we will hear what the outcome is? | :03:39. | :03:44. | |
Definitely not tonight. In half an hour we expect to hear perhaps from | :03:45. | :03:47. | |
Donald Tusk, the EU Council president who might give an idea how | :03:48. | :03:53. | |
the bilaterals will phase out during the back. Tomorrow there was an ATM | :03:54. | :03:58. | |
session which has been moved to 11am to allow them more time. -- ATM | :03:59. | :04:04. | |
session. This is the top of the mountain of diplomacy that David | :04:05. | :04:07. | |
Cameron has constructed since the general election. | :04:08. | :04:15. | |
No one can say that David Cameron has not put in the miles looking for | :04:16. | :04:25. | |
a deal. The final few yards towards the summit along the Brussels red | :04:26. | :04:30. | |
carpet this afternoon. We have important work to do today and | :04:31. | :04:35. | |
tomorrow. It will be hard. I will be battling for Britain. If we can get | :04:36. | :04:39. | |
a good deal I will take that deal but I will not take a deal but does | :04:40. | :04:43. | |
not meet what we need. It is more important to get this right than do | :04:44. | :04:48. | |
anything in a rush but with goodwill and hard work we can get a better | :04:49. | :04:56. | |
deal for Britain. Mr Cameron knows the other EU | :04:57. | :05:01. | |
leaders are just as anxious as he to reach a deal. They want the EU to | :05:02. | :05:05. | |
start talking about something else other than Britain. The leader of | :05:06. | :05:15. | |
one of the big groupings in the parliament is saying. We do not want | :05:16. | :05:20. | |
to take part in further political integration of the union. I think we | :05:21. | :05:28. | |
have to recognise that. Let's put that special status in the treaties. | :05:29. | :05:33. | |
And so give that special status to Britain. We cannot continue the | :05:34. | :05:41. | |
fight. There is plenty of concern in Brussels of what they call | :05:42. | :05:44. | |
contagion. Other countries demanding the same concessions Britain is | :05:45. | :05:49. | |
seeking. We struggled for many years in the European Union to have the | :05:50. | :05:55. | |
same treatment for citizens, to have the same rights for each citizen and | :05:56. | :05:58. | |
same access to the single market for each citizen. When we start making | :05:59. | :06:06. | |
differences, it can go further. Those principles should not be | :06:07. | :06:10. | |
watered down. I regret the EU is being watered down. This is not the | :06:11. | :06:20. | |
benefit of the Brits. At the centre of one of the European Parliament's | :06:21. | :06:24. | |
buildings is a noisy metal sculpture. Move one part and a | :06:25. | :06:29. | |
distant arm two floors up knocks against the Labour. A structure that | :06:30. | :06:32. | |
should work in harmony but a lot of work to do. This is a Flemish MEP | :06:33. | :06:37. | |
who wants the British deal to reverberate around the continent. | :06:38. | :06:41. | |
There is discussion on the contagious effects of the deal and | :06:42. | :06:44. | |
everyone saying it should be specific for Great Britain. We need | :06:45. | :06:52. | |
to have the same debate and advantages for all member states so | :06:53. | :06:58. | |
what Britain can do on social benefits, migration, | :06:59. | :06:59. | |
competitiveness, we need to be able to do that because if they decided | :07:00. | :07:05. | |
to leave we will need these exchanges. While David Cameron was | :07:06. | :07:11. | |
with EU leaders, look who we spotted at the European Parliament. Jeremy | :07:12. | :07:17. | |
Corbyn in Brussels for a meeting of European Socialists. I think the | :07:18. | :07:21. | |
reforms David Cameron and I want are rather different. I want improved | :07:22. | :07:26. | |
protection for working conditions, I want to see continuing right of | :07:27. | :07:30. | |
movement across Europe for people and I am concerned about secretive | :07:31. | :07:36. | |
negotiations of the transatlantic and trade partnership which David | :07:37. | :07:40. | |
Cameron supports. I don't support secretive negotiations, I think we | :07:41. | :07:43. | |
want something different. Are you looking forward to a long night, | :07:44. | :07:48. | |
asked David Cameron, as he sits with Donald Tusk. It is Donald Tusk's job | :07:49. | :07:54. | |
to steer the heads of government towards a deal. The crucial | :07:55. | :07:59. | |
ingredient that exists in Brussels is common purpose. Everyone wants to | :08:00. | :08:04. | |
reach consensus. Tonight the objection still stand from Eastern | :08:05. | :08:09. | |
Europe over benefits. And France over Britain's influence over the | :08:10. | :08:13. | |
eurogroup's reforms Belgium over abandoning the phrase ever closer | :08:14. | :08:17. | |
union. Even so, chances are that come tomorrow David Cameron will | :08:18. | :08:23. | |
return to the UK with a deal to recommend to the country. David | :08:24. | :08:26. | |
Grossman with the hand of history almost on his shoulder. | :08:27. | :08:27. | |
Earlier I spoke to Lord Mandelson - Peter Mandelson - the former Labour | :08:28. | :08:30. | |
Cabinet minister, a relatively successful election campaigner | :08:31. | :08:32. | |
and a one-time European Commissioner. | :08:33. | :08:33. | |
He is now on the board of Britain Stronger in Europe. | :08:34. | :08:38. | |
I asked him if the critics are right to say David Cameron has been | :08:39. | :08:46. | |
unambitious in his renegotiation. I am not sure he has been unambitious. | :08:47. | :08:51. | |
In fact he has got further than I expected him to do. If I had any | :08:52. | :08:54. | |
criticism of Cameron it would be this. The sort of engagement and | :08:55. | :09:00. | |
relationships he has built during this negotiation would have been | :09:01. | :09:08. | |
much better if he had started the process along time ago. In a sense | :09:09. | :09:14. | |
he is trying to achieve too much in too short a time. I think that the | :09:15. | :09:22. | |
deal he will get, if it is anything like that originally outlined, will | :09:23. | :09:26. | |
be relevant, it will be useful, and I think it will be able to be sold. | :09:27. | :09:32. | |
I think it is a quintessentially British thing, saying we are in | :09:33. | :09:36. | |
Europe, but we do not want to go further into Europe will stop we | :09:37. | :09:40. | |
believe in the economic partnership we have that gives us advantages, | :09:41. | :09:47. | |
these benefits, but we do not want to be signing up to some one-way | :09:48. | :09:54. | |
train heading towards a federal Europe. Shall I tell you why? I | :09:55. | :09:57. | |
think the rest of Europe does not want to go on that train either. I | :09:58. | :10:02. | |
wonder if one of the problems your side of the argument is the | :10:03. | :10:05. | |
perception that this is a bracket that has been imposed on | :10:06. | :10:13. | |
populations, by an elite, of whom frankly you are. If there is an | :10:14. | :10:17. | |
element of truth in what he was saying, basically, people will be | :10:18. | :10:23. | |
offered a choice between people like us and a bunch of nationalistic | :10:24. | :10:30. | |
fanatics on the other side. We have to draw back from the labels and | :10:31. | :10:36. | |
name calling and instead have a serious and informed factually | :10:37. | :10:40. | |
-based debate about Europe of the sort we have not seen in Britain in | :10:41. | :10:44. | |
my adult life. We know emotion will play a part, it will not just be | :10:45. | :10:50. | |
about the facts of trade, it will be about gut feeling. Emma Thompson was | :10:51. | :10:56. | |
in Berlin. She is a supporter of staying in. She described Britain as | :10:57. | :11:03. | |
a tiny cloud bolted, rainy corner, a cake filled, Ms relayed in grey old | :11:04. | :11:12. | |
island. Which I say she is entitled to her opinion. I do not happen to | :11:13. | :11:18. | |
agree with it! Is there a sense, called luvvies, new Labour, people | :11:19. | :11:23. | |
who do not quite gets... You are very free with your labels delight. | :11:24. | :11:27. | |
Luvvies and new Labour. Sweeping generalisations! I am trying to | :11:28. | :11:33. | |
provoke you into answering the idea this is a big problem for the Remain | :11:34. | :11:39. | |
campaign. What people are worried about in Britain are the basics of | :11:40. | :11:46. | |
day-to-day lives. They want secure, well-paid jobs. They want | :11:47. | :11:52. | |
well-financed, properly run public services. These are the things who | :11:53. | :12:00. | |
concern people voting in this referendum. If Emma Thompson wants | :12:01. | :12:03. | |
to make it about whether you are pro, anti-jam filled sponge cakes, | :12:04. | :12:10. | |
that is up to her! She and everyone else has a lot to contribute to the | :12:11. | :12:15. | |
debate and let it commence. Let's talk about the Remain campaign, what | :12:16. | :12:20. | |
should the pitch be? There has been talk about Project Fear, the idea | :12:21. | :12:25. | |
you try to scare the country. Are you a project via person? I am a | :12:26. | :12:30. | |
Project HOPE person will stop a project ambition person. Those who | :12:31. | :12:37. | |
advocate we leave the European Union, in my opinion, are saying we | :12:38. | :12:41. | |
should take a huge leap into the unknown. They think it is worth the | :12:42. | :12:48. | |
risk. Nigel Farage said to me, we will pay a price. He like others who | :12:49. | :12:52. | |
support him have said jobs will be at risk. Yes, investment might be | :12:53. | :13:01. | |
affected. They say it is worth taking this economic risk, worth | :13:02. | :13:04. | |
putting jobs in jeopardy in this way, because we will have more | :13:05. | :13:09. | |
control over our country. It may be a smaller, weaker country, maybe | :13:10. | :13:14. | |
less prosperous, but at least we would have control. I think that is | :13:15. | :13:19. | |
a fantasy. I would rather have a strong, large, prosperous, safe | :13:20. | :13:26. | |
country, where in certain circumstances and areas, in policies | :13:27. | :13:29. | |
and government activity, we work with other countries in order to | :13:30. | :13:34. | |
make ourselves more prosperous and safer. That is an important | :13:35. | :13:40. | |
principle. The person who enunciated that first in 1975, was Margaret | :13:41. | :13:46. | |
Thatcher. How important is it the personalities in your camp, and I am | :13:47. | :13:52. | |
thinking of one personality, Boris Johnson,? I think he is fun. He | :13:53. | :14:00. | |
would be such enjoyable company to have in a campaign. Whether he would | :14:01. | :14:03. | |
determine its outcome is a different matter. Labour's position, you are | :14:04. | :14:10. | |
comfortable where labour is? He has not been prominent, Jeremy Corbyn, | :14:11. | :14:11. | |
in the campaign? I think, actually, in the statement | :14:12. | :14:13. | |
he made today, he was making quite He was basically saying Labour | :14:14. | :14:16. | |
is absolutely for Britain staying Then he had a lot of potshots | :14:17. | :14:19. | |
at the Prime Minister - But then he dismissed out | :14:20. | :14:24. | |
of hand what the Prime Minister Now, I happen to believe that people | :14:25. | :14:28. | |
in this country don't want to pull They don't like this | :14:29. | :14:36. | |
sense that people can come here and take | :14:37. | :14:55. | |
us for a ride. In other member states, | :14:56. | :14:57. | |
they have a contributory system I've seen and discussed it | :14:58. | :15:00. | |
in a different context. So that people are | :15:01. | :15:04. | |
working and paying taxes and putting in before | :15:05. | :15:05. | |
they have the right to take out. I think what David Cameron is doing | :15:06. | :15:08. | |
in establishing that principle here and saying there is not | :15:09. | :15:11. | |
an immediate unconditional right to access to our | :15:12. | :15:14. | |
welfare system from the word go, I think that is what people | :15:15. | :15:17. | |
would regard as fair, and therefore I | :15:18. | :15:21. | |
think it is a completely legitimate part of the negotiation | :15:22. | :15:24. | |
he is undertaking in Brussels. And I think | :15:25. | :15:28. | |
if Jeremy Corbyn does not understand that, | :15:29. | :15:31. | |
he is not really on the same What is interesting listening to you | :15:32. | :15:50. | |
is that it seems as though there is, let's call it a soggy centre in | :15:51. | :15:52. | |
British politics. Some would say, Peter Mandelson | :15:53. | :16:06. | |
sounds like a Tory, for example. But you are closer to Cameron, aren't | :16:07. | :16:13. | |
you? You are closer to Osborne...? What I want is for Britain to remain | :16:14. | :16:17. | |
in the European Union because it is important for our prosperity and | :16:18. | :16:21. | |
safety. We have more power as a country in the rest of the world by | :16:22. | :16:25. | |
being in the European Union than we would have outside. Therefore I | :16:26. | :16:29. | |
think that what Cameron is negotiating in Brussels is | :16:30. | :16:32. | |
important. I don't think it is irrelevant. And yes, actually I do | :16:33. | :16:36. | |
want him to stick out for a good deal. If he comes back with | :16:37. | :16:42. | |
something less, he will not be able to sell it, which will pull the rug | :16:43. | :16:46. | |
from underneath the referendum campaign. Soldiers right to go to | :16:47. | :16:52. | |
the wire. Suppose we remain in, is that the end of the matter, do you | :16:53. | :16:57. | |
think? I think it is the end of the matter for Britain in Europe, yes. | :16:58. | :17:01. | |
But for reform in Europe? And on and it should not be. This needs to be | :17:02. | :17:05. | |
the beginning of a process, a platform for changing Europe in the | :17:06. | :17:11. | |
future. Because and really do believe that the European Union | :17:12. | :17:15. | |
needs to build bridges. It needs to build bridges between those in the | :17:16. | :17:20. | |
euro and those outside. But also, it needs to build some bridges between | :17:21. | :17:31. | |
itself and its citizens. You heard Lord Mandelson referring to Nigel | :17:32. | :17:34. | |
Farage. Why don't we talk to him now?! Good evening to you! I want to | :17:35. | :17:39. | |
start by just clarifying the point he made about you, which is, he said | :17:40. | :17:43. | |
you had told him that you would sacrifice a few jobs and some | :17:44. | :17:48. | |
prosperity in order to get more control over our destiny - is that | :17:49. | :17:54. | |
right? I will say, what a marvellous interview, Evan, to hear Lord | :17:55. | :17:58. | |
Mandelson at his fraudulent best was wonderful entertainment, and I'm | :17:59. | :18:03. | |
sure the viewers enjoyed it. Quite why he thinks he can speak for me, I | :18:04. | :18:08. | |
have no idea. He is right in one sense, that some people would lose | :18:09. | :18:11. | |
their job. Our 73 MPs would lose their jobs. Our European Commission, | :18:12. | :18:17. | |
and by the way, viewers, his name is Lord Hill. You cannot vote for him, | :18:18. | :18:22. | |
he would lose his job. And I have no doubt that highly paid bureaucrats | :18:23. | :18:26. | |
in the European Commission would lose their jobs. Beyond that, | :18:27. | :18:29. | |
absolutely nobody would lose their jobs. Because we will go on buying | :18:30. | :18:34. | |
motorcars and goods and services with the European market place, but | :18:35. | :18:38. | |
crucially we would be free to make with the European market place, but | :18:39. | :18:42. | |
our own trade deals with the rest of the world. Lord Mandelson, nice try, | :18:43. | :18:46. | |
but I am sorry, old son, you do not speak for me. You have given it back | :18:47. | :18:51. | |
to him with both barrels. You have basically said it is all a bit of a | :18:52. | :18:56. | |
Sharad, it is nothing. And yet a lot of people ask Arena round taking it | :18:57. | :19:00. | |
extremely seriously, because they think this hard renegotiation is | :19:01. | :19:07. | |
hard work - is it your contention that it is all just one enormous | :19:08. | :19:12. | |
act, or do you concede that they are doing some serious talking? I am | :19:13. | :19:17. | |
sorry, you cannot put words into my mouth, either. I have never called | :19:18. | :19:22. | |
this a conspiracy. Do not try to frame what I'm going to say in those | :19:23. | :19:26. | |
terms. When, three years ago, the Prime Minister in his room Burke | :19:27. | :19:30. | |
speech spoke about a referendum if he became Prime Minister, he talked | :19:31. | :19:35. | |
about fundamental change. He spoke about treaty change, he talked about | :19:36. | :19:40. | |
power is coming back to Britain, he talked about a negotiation over | :19:41. | :19:42. | |
whether we could control our borders. He even talked laughably | :19:43. | :19:47. | |
about reforming the European Union itself. None of that has happened. | :19:48. | :19:52. | |
What has happened here tonight, and yes, you're right, it is being taken | :19:53. | :19:56. | |
seriously, but what has happened is that we have got the British Prime | :19:57. | :20:00. | |
Minister, rather like Oliver twist, coming along with his begging bowl | :20:01. | :20:04. | |
and saying, please, sir, can we have some more concessions? Can we extend | :20:05. | :20:11. | |
the reduction in migrant benefits perhaps to ten years or beyond? | :20:12. | :20:14. | |
There are some countries, led by the Czech Republic, saying, we do not | :20:15. | :20:21. | |
want this. My belief is this. Firstly, there is no fundamental | :20:22. | :20:24. | |
debate going on tonight about Britain's relationship with the | :20:25. | :20:28. | |
European Union, only about a tiny aspect of it. And secondly, I think | :20:29. | :20:32. | |
most of what you are seeing here is theatre. It is the from Mr Cameron. | :20:33. | :20:36. | |
It is theatre from the other leaders. And they will be in | :20:37. | :20:40. | |
agreement mid-morning tomorrow. One thing doing the rounds tonight, | :20:41. | :20:45. | |
which is pretty interesting is the idea that there will not be a second | :20:46. | :20:51. | |
referendum. This negotiation is it. You presumably would like that, | :20:52. | :20:56. | |
because you think this should be it, you will accept the referendum | :20:57. | :20:59. | |
result, whatever it is, and that will be final, we cannot keep coming | :21:00. | :21:06. | |
back year after year? Well, as a veteran of this place, I have seen | :21:07. | :21:10. | |
two Irish referendums, whether people have rejected European | :21:11. | :21:14. | |
treaties and they have been and bullied in second referendums, where | :21:15. | :21:17. | |
one side out spent the other massively, into subjugating second | :21:18. | :21:23. | |
time around. We saw it in the 1990s with Denmark. The idea which has | :21:24. | :21:28. | |
been put about by voter leave and others, that may be a second | :21:29. | :21:31. | |
referendum is a clever way of selling this wreckage to the British | :21:32. | :21:35. | |
people, I do not agree with that. We have got to motivate people to get | :21:36. | :21:41. | |
up off their armchairs and get down to the polling station, even if they | :21:42. | :21:44. | |
have never voted in their lives before. I'm going to say a big, big | :21:45. | :21:49. | |
thank you tonight to the French and the Belgians for putting into this | :21:50. | :21:54. | |
final communique that this is it, this is our once-in-a-lifetime | :21:55. | :21:57. | |
opportunity to get back control of our country, and I absolutely | :21:58. | :22:04. | |
welcome that. You mentioned Vote Leave,, which is the other campaign. | :22:05. | :22:08. | |
One feature of what has been happening so far is that you guys on | :22:09. | :22:13. | |
your side of the Argent have been arguing with each other as much as | :22:14. | :22:17. | |
with the other side. Are you going to be at this meeting on Tuesday | :22:18. | :22:20. | |
when you all bash your heads together? I have tried four or five | :22:21. | :22:24. | |
times to meet with them, it is impossible. I am not convinced they | :22:25. | :22:33. | |
even want to leave. What has happened here is very simple. There | :22:34. | :22:37. | |
has been a pitched battle going on between Vote Leave and leave.dot.eu, | :22:38. | :22:48. | |
and this is why the other group has come together. We will be having a | :22:49. | :22:52. | |
big meeting tomorrow night in Westminster. On that platform, we | :22:53. | :22:56. | |
will have people from the right, left and centre of British politics. | :22:57. | :23:01. | |
Go has broken the deadlock. Go has now applied for the designation. And | :23:02. | :23:05. | |
we welcome the support of leave.dot.eu and if they can bring | :23:06. | :23:07. | |
themselves to do it, Vote Leave as well. Nigel Farage, thanks very much | :23:08. | :23:11. | |
indeed. Love it or hate it, it has seemed | :23:12. | :23:15. | |
like we are on a one-way road towards greater | :23:16. | :23:21. | |
integration and unity. Then came the Greek crisis, | :23:22. | :23:24. | |
incessant bickering between other EU members, | :23:25. | :23:28. | |
and now, potential Brexit. And suddenly, it seems | :23:29. | :23:31. | |
Europe might turn round, and drive away from | :23:32. | :23:33. | |
unity, not towards it. Nowhere is this causing more | :23:34. | :23:36. | |
nervousness than Germany. Mark Urban is in Berlin today | :23:37. | :23:40. | |
to look at the fears there. Out of the German wartime | :23:41. | :23:46. | |
cauldron came the impetus For the war generation, | :23:47. | :23:48. | |
the purpose of the European It stood as the polar | :23:49. | :23:57. | |
opposite to the horror of war and for | :23:58. | :24:04. | |
the construction of peace, literally, through the ever closer | :24:05. | :24:07. | |
union of Europe's peoples. But there are now senior | :24:08. | :24:11. | |
figures here who wonder whether all of that is | :24:12. | :24:15. | |
being called into doubt. For those at the top of politics | :24:16. | :24:18. | |
here, it is the migrant crisis that has created a real | :24:19. | :24:23. | |
threat to the entire I consider this crisis to be | :24:24. | :24:25. | |
of an existentialist I would say every part | :24:26. | :24:30. | |
has to be ready for I see a dramatic lack | :24:31. | :24:37. | |
of the willingness to compromise on this issue, and we can probably | :24:38. | :24:48. | |
experience a fundamental existential crisis to the cohesion | :24:49. | :24:55. | |
of the European Union. Some believe that at least | :24:56. | :24:58. | |
the challenge of British renegotiation has caused Germany | :24:59. | :25:04. | |
and the EU to debate Europe's Ever closer union, | :25:05. | :25:06. | |
it is the founding lie They honestly believe, | :25:07. | :25:13. | |
the elite believed, a lot of people believed, that somehow Europe | :25:14. | :25:19. | |
would develop into a superstate. It has been the position | :25:20. | :25:23. | |
of Britain all along - Tony Blair said it, | :25:24. | :25:26. | |
superpower not a superstate, and now Cameron has | :25:27. | :25:29. | |
got it in writing, that | :25:30. | :25:31. | |
this is not going to happen. It has not sunk home | :25:32. | :25:33. | |
for the Germans yet. The current generation of leaders | :25:34. | :25:38. | |
here has been shaped by the collapse of communism and welcoming | :25:39. | :25:44. | |
Eastern Europe back into the family. after the fall of the Wall | :25:45. | :25:47. | |
and the reunification of Germany in Europe, people saw | :25:48. | :25:51. | |
that as a triumph to be proud of, but now the migration | :25:52. | :25:55. | |
crisis has opened up fissures, We have a new situation where we | :25:56. | :26:11. | |
have to defend our values, where we have to talk about values again. | :26:12. | :26:15. | |
What are our values? And we have more and more the emergence of a rev | :26:16. | :26:21. | |
counter model to Western liberal democracies, within Europe. Coming | :26:22. | :26:26. | |
from Hungary, perhaps now from Poland. And everywhere you look, it | :26:27. | :26:35. | |
is about the West, the Europeans, have to redefine their identity with | :26:36. | :26:40. | |
regard to the challenges from outside and from inside. | :26:41. | :26:47. | |
Berlin is currently playing host to its film festival. | :26:48. | :26:49. | |
In the capital of Europe's most populous country and powerhouse | :26:50. | :26:53. | |
economy, they are trying to set the tone in culture | :26:54. | :26:57. | |
The EU's multiple crises - the euro, Brexit and migration - | :26:58. | :27:04. | |
have brought about another change here. | :27:05. | :27:07. | |
And that is a sober realisation of Germany's | :27:08. | :27:10. | |
responsibility of leadership in Europe. | :27:11. | :27:13. | |
And that won't change, regardless of how those individual | :27:14. | :27:17. | |
As the Germans look at us negotiating a few concessions, and | :27:18. | :27:34. | |
things we want, is there anything they find attractive in that | :27:35. | :27:39. | |
package, perhaps child benefit or anything, something attractive which | :27:40. | :27:45. | |
perhaps they would like to have? Well, don't forget, Evan, as David | :27:46. | :27:49. | |
Cameron goes into battle tonight, to a great extent, the Germans have | :27:50. | :27:53. | |
tuned up his offer, or his proposal, if you like, and done so over | :27:54. | :27:58. | |
several months. There are bits of it, on the competitiveness agenda, | :27:59. | :28:02. | |
completing the single market, that the Germans love. There are bits of | :28:03. | :28:07. | |
it which they are agnostic about - the commitment to the ever closer | :28:08. | :28:10. | |
union point, or getting that out of the way for Britain. And then there | :28:11. | :28:14. | |
is this issue of freedom of movement, which they tried | :28:15. | :28:18. | |
initially, well, they succeeded I think in convincing David Cameron to | :28:19. | :28:23. | |
step back from going too far on that, from comp rising on what they | :28:24. | :28:27. | |
see as fundamental principles, and they have now got him on the benefit | :28:28. | :28:31. | |
cap area, which as you suggest, I think there are some people in | :28:32. | :28:35. | |
Germany who can see that there would be Exchequer benefits for Germany as | :28:36. | :28:39. | |
well, if that goes through. On the other side, is there much sign of | :28:40. | :28:42. | |
German fatigue with the Brits requiring that the whole union sit | :28:43. | :28:47. | |
down and talk about our needs rather than all the other things going on? | :28:48. | :28:54. | |
Look, they want to keep Britain in, they want a deal. But one senior | :28:55. | :28:59. | |
politician said to me today, all of this for such a small matters. They | :29:00. | :29:04. | |
think David Cameron is taking a big risk in terms of possibly taking | :29:05. | :29:07. | |
Britain out of the EU on these issues, which they do not think, | :29:08. | :29:10. | |
Britain out of the EU on these many of them, are actually worth | :29:11. | :29:13. | |
that sort of gamble. I think there is also a sense here that at the | :29:14. | :29:18. | |
moment, when the crisis over refugees poses such a threat, what | :29:19. | :29:26. | |
many people in Angela Merkel's party see as an excess tension threat to | :29:27. | :29:31. | |
the EU, that so much time should be devoted to this, and that Chancellor | :29:32. | :29:34. | |
Merkel should be in some sense weakened or held back by her | :29:35. | :29:38. | |
advocacy of Britain on that point. They would rather focus on that | :29:39. | :29:41. | |
issue and push on to try to get some sort of agreement on the refugee | :29:42. | :29:43. | |
question. Thank you very much. We've talked a lot in recent weeks | :29:44. | :29:48. | |
about the "emergency brake" on migrant benefits, and migrants | :29:49. | :29:50. | |
coming from Poland and elsewhere. It is one of the key sticking points | :29:51. | :29:53. | |
of the deal being negotiated over You have heard politicians, | :29:54. | :29:56. | |
you have heard experts pontificate We've talked a lot in recent weeks | :29:57. | :30:16. | |
about the "emergency brake" on migrant benefits, and migrants | :30:17. | :30:18. | |
coming from Poland and elsewhere. It is one of the key sticking points | :30:19. | :30:21. | |
of the deal being negotiated over You have heard politicians, | :30:22. | :30:24. | |
you have heard experts pontificate But we have found a better place | :30:25. | :30:27. | |
to get the lowdown on this - the 11am bus to London, | :30:28. | :30:32. | |
departing from Krakow in Poland. Yesterday, our producer | :30:33. | :30:35. | |
Maria Polachowska caught that bus and she arrived an hour late, | :30:36. | :30:37. | |
at 1230 today, with a disk full I have been working | :30:38. | :30:40. | |
here for over ten years. Most people appreciate | :30:41. | :30:44. | |
the UK because they can If you work in Poland, | :30:45. | :30:49. | |
the minimum wage is like And you can't pay your bills, | :30:50. | :30:55. | |
you can't rent a flat. And then you go to England, | :30:56. | :31:05. | |
you work the same, and you earn enough to earn a living, | :31:06. | :31:11. | |
to have a normal life, all people who take advantage of the | :31:12. | :31:30. | |
benefits, but it is only a little part. | :31:31. | :31:33. | |
It is a bigger market in the UK, it is | :31:34. | :31:37. | |
easier to sell invention or publish a book. | :31:38. | :31:39. | |
What you would happen if Britain did choose to leave? | :31:40. | :31:42. | |
How would that affect Poles working in the UK? | :31:43. | :31:44. | |
Most people would come back or go to other countries, | :31:45. | :31:47. | |
Do you agree with David Cameron that there should be a four-year gap | :31:48. | :33:09. | |
before you are allowed to get benefit? | :33:10. | :33:24. | |
Do you think people may look elsewhere and travel to other | :33:25. | :33:26. | |
Many of those people have already come here. | :33:27. | :33:35. | |
Many of the children were born in England. | :33:36. | :33:40. | |
To look for a job, place to live anywhere else. | :33:41. | :33:50. | |
I think coming back to Poland, there is no | :33:51. | :33:55. | |
The bus arriving from Krakow at lunchtime today. | :33:56. | :34:11. | |
Joining me now is Guardian columnist Simon Jenkins, | :34:12. | :34:13. | |
from the Times, Lord Danny Finkelstein and from our Paris | :34:14. | :34:15. | |
Let's look at the French newspaper front cover about Britain and | :34:16. | :34:31. | |
Europe. It says go if you want to, it says would Brexit be such a | :34:32. | :34:36. | |
dramatic development, anyway? Christine, is that the mood | :34:37. | :34:40. | |
everybody has their, that we are causing trouble, we are weary of it | :34:41. | :34:44. | |
and it is time to make up our minds? I think there is a kind of fatigue | :34:45. | :34:57. | |
about Britishness of it all. Ever since Britain has joined the EU we | :34:58. | :35:03. | |
have been used to London asking for specific treatment, conditions and | :35:04. | :35:10. | |
so on. The kind of trap which your Prime Minister seems to have put | :35:11. | :35:16. | |
himself into, for probably valid domestic reasons, as far as British | :35:17. | :35:21. | |
politics are concerned, it gets to be a little bit tiresome on the | :35:22. | :35:25. | |
continent. Of course, all of our countries have their own problems | :35:26. | :35:30. | |
will stop as indeed your Berlin correspondent stressed, and the | :35:31. | :35:38. | |
discrepancy between the time spent on the wording, phrasing, what's | :35:39. | :35:46. | |
David Cameron might or might not get from this long Brussels night and | :35:47. | :35:52. | |
probably again tomorrow. And the real issue which we Europeans have | :35:53. | :35:56. | |
two face and when I say we Europeans, I include my British | :35:57. | :36:00. | |
friends stop I think there is something wrong there. We have this | :36:01. | :36:04. | |
huge migrant crisis. We have problems with jobs, the environment. | :36:05. | :36:11. | |
We have the war in Syria. You do not need to spell out all of the... I | :36:12. | :36:20. | |
think we understand the point. It is irritating to be told we have spent | :36:21. | :36:23. | |
a lot of time discussing Britain's problems as if we have not spent a | :36:24. | :36:28. | |
lot of time discussing France's problems and as if we have not had | :36:29. | :36:32. | |
referendums in France that require a response. Britain has concerns about | :36:33. | :36:39. | |
the EU. People want a single market, not a politically developed a | :36:40. | :36:43. | |
European Union, which is why we opted out of the euro, the Schengen | :36:44. | :36:48. | |
agreement, and now out of closer union we will try to opt out of. It | :36:49. | :36:53. | |
is not as if our special relationship with the EU is any | :36:54. | :36:59. | |
different. It is irritating to be told it is a waste of time to deal | :37:00. | :37:05. | |
with one of the world's biggest economies. It depends how you view | :37:06. | :37:12. | |
Europe. If you see it as part of a political hole, we are a pain in the | :37:13. | :37:17. | |
neck. We do not see Europe that way in this country. The relationship | :37:18. | :37:20. | |
between Britain and the European countries has broken down, which is | :37:21. | :37:24. | |
what this has been about otherwise he would not be in Brussels. We were | :37:25. | :37:29. | |
promised a new job retreat, new relationship with Europe, as a | :37:30. | :37:35. | |
trading partner, it is not delivered. It seems to me he has got | :37:36. | :37:40. | |
to walk away. He cannot vote yes to this package. If he votes yes | :37:41. | :37:45. | |
everything goes on as before if he votes no, it gets interesting. There | :37:46. | :37:50. | |
has been argument in Britain about whether we wanted to join a | :37:51. | :37:54. | |
superstate and since that argument we have the referendum act, we have | :37:55. | :37:58. | |
opted out of the euro and Schengen and now we have negotiations that | :37:59. | :38:03. | |
come on top of enlargement and other problems inside the EU, that what we | :38:04. | :38:09. | |
feared would happen ten years ago, that Europe would develop into a | :38:10. | :38:13. | |
single country and we would have to be part of it or leave that is not | :38:14. | :38:17. | |
now the choice. So I do not agree with Simon. If you vote yes, nothing | :38:18. | :38:26. | |
changes. I do not think it will make much difference if you vote yes or | :38:27. | :38:29. | |
no, we would have an associate relationship. Christine, is there a | :38:30. | :38:38. | |
feeling there that this at least might resolve it? Simon Jenkins said | :38:39. | :38:43. | |
if we vote to stay in we will carry on with the dysfunctional | :38:44. | :38:47. | |
relationship as we have the last 40 years. David Cameron has said if we | :38:48. | :38:52. | |
can resolve this once and for all, all of Europe should be much | :38:53. | :38:58. | |
happier. Yes, but it seems to many of us on the continent that when it | :38:59. | :39:06. | |
is expressed that way, it means there has to be a British set of | :39:07. | :39:12. | |
rules and the rest of us, and we just have to deal with that. That | :39:13. | :39:20. | |
idea of a special partnership, which would do what, protect British | :39:21. | :39:24. | |
interests and not other European interests? It is hard to take, it | :39:25. | :39:30. | |
does not make much sense. If the British people want to get out of | :39:31. | :39:35. | |
Europe, we will see what happens. I think it is quite unfair to say, but | :39:36. | :39:41. | |
in any case, it would really improve things so much more by having that | :39:42. | :39:46. | |
sort of special deals that we would of course be very specific about and | :39:47. | :39:56. | |
not you. You formed a single currency so you have a different | :39:57. | :39:59. | |
relationship because you formed a fiscal union which requires a | :40:00. | :40:03. | |
political union. Printed not want a single currency and that was within | :40:04. | :40:10. | |
the deal we did. Nobody asked you to be in the single currency, you opted | :40:11. | :40:16. | |
out. And nobody asked you to let us opt out. We were able to opt out and | :40:17. | :40:20. | |
we did. Simon you wrote an interesting piece today essentially | :40:21. | :40:27. | |
arguing we should vote no because that would give a kick at the bottom | :40:28. | :40:32. | |
to the relationship and it would be properly re-establish. Tonight, what | :40:33. | :40:37. | |
is interesting, everybody is saying, we cannot have another referendum | :40:38. | :40:41. | |
after this, this has to be the once and only choice. Your piece was | :40:42. | :40:46. | |
predicated on another referendum. I was simply saying that if you are in | :40:47. | :40:51. | |
effect say, we want to alter the relationship between Britain and the | :40:52. | :40:55. | |
other countries in a particular fashion, nobody is coming out of | :40:56. | :40:59. | |
Europe. This is city tour. If we vote no, there would have to be an | :41:00. | :41:05. | |
almighty renegotiation. The relationship would be different, it | :41:06. | :41:08. | |
would be some sort of associate membership. I'm sure. The only | :41:09. | :41:13. | |
question is what with the nature of it be? No government can preclude | :41:14. | :41:18. | |
that, a future government might say we ought to have another referendum, | :41:19. | :41:24. | |
that is all I am saying. No is not known to Europe, it is no to the | :41:25. | :41:29. | |
present relationship. That is the idea that any relationship with | :41:30. | :41:34. | |
Europe would be better. I do not accept that. We have a lot of parts | :41:35. | :41:39. | |
of relationship that we want. A single market allows people to trade | :41:40. | :41:42. | |
and reduces regulation to business. You would get that in the | :41:43. | :41:49. | |
renegotiation. Not necessarily. The only guarantee is now that you get | :41:50. | :41:53. | |
none of it. We are out of time. Thank you. | :41:54. | :41:59. | |
By this time tomorrow, will we know? That is all we have time for. Have a | :42:00. | :42:04. | |
very good night. | :42:05. | :42:06. |