Browse content similar to 17/02/2016. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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European leaders so worn out, they're struggling to find words | :00:00. | :00:07. | |
Today, the UK is still a member of the European Union, | :00:08. | :00:17. | |
and I have a feeling that it will not change... | :00:18. | :00:23. | |
We'll ask if it'll have to be watered down, | :00:24. | :00:28. | |
Also tonight - we're in the migrant processing camps | :00:29. | :00:32. | |
Will the rest of Europe allow the migrants through? | :00:33. | :00:37. | |
People here will confess privately that they are | :00:38. | :00:39. | |
losing faith that other Europeans will keep their part of this | :00:40. | :00:42. | |
bargain, and that very soon Greece could find itself cut off | :00:43. | :00:46. | |
from Schengen, from the rest of Europe, | :00:47. | :00:48. | |
left to deal with this problem on their own. | :00:49. | :00:53. | |
All we now need is the money to pay for it. | :00:54. | :01:04. | |
If you look at the cost of these treatments, | :01:05. | :01:06. | |
12 weeks of treatment for one person. | :01:07. | :01:10. | |
That same treatment is being sold in the | :01:11. | :01:12. | |
How can those who speak for the pharmaceutical industry | :01:13. | :01:18. | |
Britain's day of destiny is tomorrow - well, tomorrow and Friday. | :01:19. | :01:32. | |
What we think tonight is that there is still | :01:33. | :01:36. | |
We expected to have a draft agreement this evening, | :01:37. | :01:40. | |
We'll digest where we are shortly, but first, our political editor, | :01:41. | :01:45. | |
David Grossman, reports from Brussels. | :01:46. | :01:48. | |
From about three o'clock tomorrow afternoon, down that ramp, | :01:49. | :01:51. | |
will sweep the 28 cars of the heads of government | :01:52. | :01:54. | |
of the EU, arriving for a crisis summit, | :01:55. | :01:57. | |
I have been covering these things for about 15 years and I have to say | :01:58. | :02:03. | |
this one is about as important as they get. | :02:04. | :02:05. | |
The cars will stop where that one is. | :02:06. | :02:07. | |
They will maybe even say a few choice words to the reporters | :02:08. | :02:13. | |
gathered here, as they bound in towards destiny. | :02:14. | :02:18. | |
As they come through those doors, they will go up | :02:19. | :02:20. | |
that step over there and pose in front of the flags. | :02:21. | :02:23. | |
There will be warm handshakes but then the | :02:24. | :02:25. | |
Of course, there is lots of preparation | :02:26. | :02:29. | |
already being done in advance by emissaries, the so-called Sherpas | :02:30. | :02:32. | |
The interesting thing about this summit, | :02:33. | :02:36. | |
it seems to me, is it has been more intensively prepared than most. | :02:37. | :02:40. | |
I think by the time David Cameron sent his first public letter | :02:41. | :02:44. | |
to the president of the European Council at the back end | :02:45. | :02:47. | |
of last year, he had already done several months of going | :02:48. | :02:49. | |
round the capitals, and I can't remember a Prime Minister who has | :02:50. | :02:52. | |
done more than that personal diplomacy. | :02:53. | :02:55. | |
That meticulous diplomacy has happened for a very simple reason. | :02:56. | :02:58. | |
For David Cameron, the stakes could not be higher. | :02:59. | :03:02. | |
What will at this summit, amd the referendum which follows, | :03:03. | :03:05. | |
David Cameron, I think was shaken by the adverse press reaction | :03:06. | :03:14. | |
to the deal when it was first put forward by Tusk a couple | :03:15. | :03:17. | |
His margin for manoeuvre is generally quite small. | :03:18. | :03:20. | |
On the other hand, of course, the notion that he would come back | :03:21. | :03:23. | |
and say, I have failed and I have to recommend the British people | :03:24. | :03:26. | |
that we have to come out of the European Union | :03:27. | :03:29. | |
He is on a very narrow path that sense. | :03:30. | :03:33. | |
He could fall off on either side of the cliff edge as it were. | :03:34. | :03:38. | |
Will the Prime Minister persuade you to back him today? | :03:39. | :03:43. | |
Then of course David Cameron has his party to deal with. | :03:44. | :03:48. | |
Boris Johnson, as yet undeclared, was in to discuss the matter | :03:49. | :03:51. | |
with the Prime Minister in Downing Street today. | :03:52. | :03:55. | |
As he left, there was no clue as to what had been said. | :03:56. | :03:59. | |
I have said before, there is no point in saying anything | :04:00. | :04:01. | |
Of course, it is not just David Cameron who has to walk | :04:02. | :04:10. | |
Every other EU leader have to juggle domestic opinion | :04:11. | :04:15. | |
European governments have been really keen to accommodate | :04:16. | :04:21. | |
British requests, British needs and understands there is an issue | :04:22. | :04:26. | |
But at the same time, they don't want to create | :04:27. | :04:31. | |
a precedent which will trigger off a domino effect of other countries | :04:32. | :04:36. | |
There is this delicate balance that has been sought | :04:37. | :04:44. | |
over the past few months which is now becoming critical, | :04:45. | :04:49. | |
and I think today we are seeing that every day a new member state | :04:50. | :04:52. | |
is raising a few more objections, so much so that we don't actually | :04:53. | :04:55. | |
know how the meeting tomorrow will go. | :04:56. | :04:57. | |
And of course, at every EU summit, | :04:58. | :04:59. | |
there are personal relationships to navigate. | :05:00. | :05:00. | |
I was at one summit where Helmut Kohl, the German Chancellor | :05:01. | :05:07. | |
almost thumped the Spanish Prime Minister he was so angry with him. | :05:08. | :05:10. | |
And another summit where Schroeder, the then German Chancellor, | :05:11. | :05:13. | |
who was a close friend of Tony Blair's told | :05:14. | :05:16. | |
him to "F off" at one point, simply because he was exhausted. | :05:17. | :05:19. | |
Once agreement is reached, the champagne corks pop | :05:20. | :05:26. | |
In a way, sometimes it has to go down to the wire. | :05:27. | :05:33. | |
You have to look over the cliff edge to see that the alternative | :05:34. | :05:38. | |
From dawn tomorrow, these desks will start filling up | :05:39. | :05:44. | |
with journalists from all over the world. | :05:45. | :05:46. | |
This is big news, of course, not just in Europe. | :05:47. | :05:49. | |
The big question is, what story will they write? | :05:50. | :05:54. | |
Well, I don't know how much we read into this fact, but the channels by | :05:55. | :06:14. | |
which we expected to receive tonight at least some possible tentative | :06:15. | :06:17. | |
solutions to the problem is that this deal has, we expected to hear | :06:18. | :06:23. | |
some more details, but those channels have gone quiet. On the | :06:24. | :06:27. | |
record, we are told that David Cameron and Donald task, the EU | :06:28. | :06:31. | |
Council president, had a constructive phone call where they | :06:32. | :06:36. | |
agreed that good progress had been made and good basis for a deal had | :06:37. | :06:41. | |
been found. In truth, this form of words we have heard in various forms | :06:42. | :06:46. | |
for months now. Off the record we are hearing a slightly different | :06:47. | :06:50. | |
picture. More distance between the British position and those of David | :06:51. | :06:56. | |
Cameron's EU partners on the question of ever-closer union. | :06:57. | :06:59. | |
Britain still not happy with that form of words that's been agreed so | :07:00. | :07:04. | |
far in the draft. The safeguard mechanism by which out of work | :07:05. | :07:10. | |
benefits may be denied EU citizens arriving in Britain, still much work | :07:11. | :07:15. | |
to be done on that. One senior EU source said tonight that it was | :07:16. | :07:21. | |
still unclear and unlikely that we would get the precise details of how | :07:22. | :07:26. | |
that would work by the time Britain votes in a referendum, presuming | :07:27. | :07:31. | |
that is on the 23rd of June. And the other matter, child benefit. It | :07:32. | :07:36. | |
wasn't envisage that tomorrow when these EU leaders meet they would be | :07:37. | :07:40. | |
discussing child benefit. It looks like that's how they're going to be | :07:41. | :07:46. | |
doing it. One country that has come forward, we already know that many | :07:47. | :07:50. | |
eastern European countries are unhappy with benefits being denied | :07:51. | :07:55. | |
their citizens. In Romania, 1 million of their citizens are | :07:56. | :07:59. | |
working in Spain and Italy, and they are very concerned that a deal done | :08:00. | :08:06. | |
in Britain is not translated to their citizens in Italy and Spain. | :08:07. | :08:10. | |
The political danger for Cameron is, yes, it is very likely a deal will | :08:11. | :08:15. | |
be done. This town wants to move on to talk about the euro and | :08:16. | :08:21. | |
migration. The danger for Cameron is that the compromise, the | :08:22. | :08:25. | |
concessions, the fudge, whatever you want to call it, is so impenetrable | :08:26. | :08:31. | |
to people at home, it looks like to be ordinary voters that he's done | :08:32. | :08:35. | |
nothing to get what he said he was coming here to get. Thank very much. | :08:36. | :08:38. | |
Joining me now is the prominent eurosceptic Jacob Rees-Mogg, | :08:39. | :08:40. | |
and Neil Carmichael, Chair of the pro-remain | :08:41. | :08:41. | |
Good evening. There does seem to be a sense that it isn't going well | :08:42. | :08:54. | |
tonight. Jacob Rees-Mogg, is that genuine? It is what you expect | :08:55. | :09:01. | |
around these negotiations, so they go through the night and then our | :09:02. | :09:07. | |
hero returns triumphant! We've seen all of this before in European | :09:08. | :09:12. | |
negotiations. My guess is that most of it is broadly agreed. We haven't | :09:13. | :09:16. | |
asked for anything except thin gruel. There's no reason for the EU | :09:17. | :09:23. | |
not to give it to us. That's where we are, it will all work out, and | :09:24. | :09:28. | |
then we will be supposed to rejoice when the Prime Minister returns. | :09:29. | :09:32. | |
Neil Carmichael, do you agree? The key point here is that the Prime | :09:33. | :09:37. | |
Minister is representing Britain's interests. We have to get it across | :09:38. | :09:41. | |
to the electorate that the best deal is where the UK can stay in the | :09:42. | :09:46. | |
European Union, but have some meaningful reforms, and be a | :09:47. | :09:50. | |
catalyst for further reform beyond. Angela Merkel's point, which I was | :09:51. | :09:56. | |
on your programme earlier, about there needs to be reformed, is | :09:57. | :10:02. | |
right. One of the issues that does appear to be nitty-gritty, and you | :10:03. | :10:05. | |
can dismiss this, but there are other countries that have their own | :10:06. | :10:11. | |
internal political needs. It is this one about child benefit being cut | :10:12. | :10:15. | |
for a existing migrants whose children are back home. Is that a | :10:16. | :10:20. | |
significant neat -- thing for them to be arguing about? There's only | :10:21. | :10:26. | |
34,000 of them claiming signal it sends. It's about whether or not we | :10:27. | :10:32. | |
have control over our benefits system. We are seeking to get that | :10:33. | :10:38. | |
control, so a signal to the people at home and also to the European | :10:39. | :10:42. | |
Union as a whole, is that we want some control, and that's what we're | :10:43. | :10:48. | |
going to seek. Do you think it is significant? It's trivial. But it is | :10:49. | :10:54. | |
symbolic of the failures of the EU. Why are we paying benefits for | :10:55. | :10:58. | |
children who do not live in the United Kingdom? Our benefits is for | :10:59. | :11:03. | |
people who live in this country, not for people who live abroad. It is | :11:04. | :11:09. | |
not up to us. If we cannot get this relatively straightforward, minor | :11:10. | :11:13. | |
thing, it is not a great thing we have asked for and is not the | :11:14. | :11:18. | |
driving force of immigration. People are not flooding to the United | :11:19. | :11:22. | |
Kingdom for a few pounds of child benefit. They come here because we | :11:23. | :11:27. | |
are a more prosperous country. It is on the margins, and it -- if it is | :11:28. | :11:31. | |
difficult, it shows the failure of the EU more than anything else. | :11:32. | :11:37. | |
Jacob Rees-Mogg, you think that the Prime Minister couldn't have got | :11:38. | :11:40. | |
more, and that shows how difficult it is to deal with the EU, or do you | :11:41. | :11:45. | |
think you should and could have got more? I think he was out negotiated | :11:46. | :11:52. | |
by Angela Merkel early on. In good faith, he set out what he wanted to | :11:53. | :11:57. | |
do. He wanted fundamental reform of our relationship with the EU. That | :11:58. | :12:02. | |
was set out in the Conservative manifesto, and that is what he said | :12:03. | :12:07. | |
on a number of occasions before the formal negotiations started. He | :12:08. | :12:10. | |
spoke to the German Chancellor last year and she said she wasn't going | :12:11. | :12:15. | |
to give these reforms. He went along with that and asked for very little. | :12:16. | :12:20. | |
If you look at the Sun newspaper, there was a very interesting poll | :12:21. | :12:24. | |
about Lord Ashcroft about how pop killer the UK is in Europe. -- how | :12:25. | :12:33. | |
popular. We are the second most popular country after Sweden. They | :12:34. | :12:37. | |
would have been willing to give us a good deal. Could he have got more if | :12:38. | :12:42. | |
he had more ambitious goals? I think the big jewel in the crown is making | :12:43. | :12:47. | |
sure the single market is covering all the areas it should. The | :12:48. | :12:52. | |
economy, the world of energy and so on, and that's something I think he | :12:53. | :12:57. | |
can deliver, a really important part of the negotiations. In this | :12:58. | :13:03. | |
argument, we often go down some sort of small channel, when actually it's | :13:04. | :13:08. | |
the overall interests of the British economy that will matter. It's all | :13:09. | :13:13. | |
very well saying, people want to come to prosperous Britain. We are | :13:14. | :13:18. | |
in the European Union. We are prosperous partly because of that, | :13:19. | :13:23. | |
and we've got to accept that. To risk that would be extraordinarily | :13:24. | :13:27. | |
unwise. Let's briefly talk about the effect of this on your party. | :13:28. | :13:32. | |
Tonight, the most prominent conservative who isn't an MP, Tim | :13:33. | :13:36. | |
Montgomery, is saying he is leaving the party, I think on the ground | :13:37. | :13:40. | |
that it isn't quite blue enough, in his view. We heard this a few | :13:41. | :13:47. | |
minutes before we went on air. Some say he is maybe trying to cajole | :13:48. | :13:51. | |
Michael Gove and Boris into supporting the outside. Where do you | :13:52. | :13:58. | |
think he stands? In terms of his position, I think commentators often | :13:59. | :14:01. | |
find it easier to leave the party they belong to. My father left the | :14:02. | :14:06. | |
Conservative Party in the early 1960s when he realised he was going | :14:07. | :14:10. | |
to be more of a journalist than a politician. It is much more easy to | :14:11. | :14:16. | |
speak out if you are not a member of a party. | :14:17. | :14:22. | |
Are you expecting Boris and goes to tilt to the outside? We welcome | :14:23. | :14:30. | |
everyone to our cause, even you and Neil if he sees the light. Do you | :14:31. | :14:37. | |
think it is plausible that those two very big beasts... First of all, I | :14:38. | :14:42. | |
want to say I agree with Jacob about Tim. If someone is going down the | :14:43. | :14:46. | |
journalist route it is probably easier for him not to be part of the | :14:47. | :14:52. | |
Conservative Party. We do not want to get too obsessed with | :14:53. | :14:55. | |
personalities. The Prime Minister is leader of the government. He is our | :14:56. | :15:00. | |
principal negotiator. He is the one, if we decide to end up fighting to | :15:01. | :15:04. | |
remain in, we will lead that campaign. That is the most important | :15:05. | :15:08. | |
person out of all of this story. Boris is a great man. I hope he | :15:09. | :15:15. | |
would join us as well. Thank you both. | :15:16. | :15:18. | |
Well, Britain may be stealing the European show for a day, | :15:19. | :15:20. | |
but what they really want to talk about in Brussels is migration. | :15:21. | :15:23. | |
Greece is centre stage on that - its failure to process migrants | :15:24. | :15:26. | |
and refugees properly, causing anger among the other states. | :15:27. | :15:28. | |
Mark Urban has gone to see if the situation is improving. | :15:29. | :15:35. | |
Mark, we were talking about Brexit and those negotiations, you are | :15:36. | :15:49. | |
talking about migrants, there are links between those issues? | :15:50. | :15:54. | |
Absolutely. It was reverberating in my head about all the linkages. | :15:55. | :15:59. | |
Chancellor Merkel is crucial in both these matters. She made this deal | :16:00. | :16:05. | |
with David Cameron to go with if you like the lesser package of reforms, | :16:06. | :16:08. | |
in turn she would give her wholehearted backing to Britain's | :16:09. | :16:12. | |
case. What has happened instead is she has had to expend a lot of time | :16:13. | :16:17. | |
and political capital and run down the favour bank on the migration | :16:18. | :16:21. | |
issue instead, because the German people care so much about it. That | :16:22. | :16:26. | |
has had all sorts of consequences that read across, but in particular, | :16:27. | :16:33. | |
in relation to a group of nations, Poland, Hungary, the Czech Republic | :16:34. | :16:37. | |
and Slovakia. They have been the most energetic in attacking her on | :16:38. | :16:41. | |
migration, but they are the ones now leading the resistance on the child | :16:42. | :16:46. | |
benefit issue you were talking about earlier, on the Brexit agenda so | :16:47. | :16:51. | |
they read across both stories. In relation to migration they have been | :16:52. | :16:57. | |
asking for very tough action. Pressure in Macedonia, which is the | :16:58. | :17:02. | |
country to the north of here, to close its borders altogether, | :17:03. | :17:07. | |
pressuring the EU, to completely seal off Greece from the Schengen | :17:08. | :17:11. | |
area, if changes are not made in the next three months. | :17:12. | :17:13. | |
Evenings are the time for protest in Diavata, | :17:14. | :17:18. | |
a hard done by neighbourhood on the outskirts | :17:19. | :17:20. | |
Diavata has been chosen as one of half a dozen points | :17:21. | :17:49. | |
for the screening and onward dispatch of refugees. | :17:50. | :17:53. | |
There's a camp being built, and people don't like it, | :17:54. | :17:56. | |
and with rumours of borders further north closing, | :17:57. | :18:00. | |
Apostoll Giapoutsis, one of the protest leaders, | :18:01. | :18:03. | |
says the numbers here could soon swell. | :18:04. | :18:06. | |
These people are not going to be able to escape. | :18:07. | :18:08. | |
So I think the big issue is how many Syrians we will actually be able | :18:09. | :18:14. | |
The police were there in strength to block them, | :18:15. | :18:23. | |
and there's little more people can do than sing and voice their anger | :18:24. | :18:27. | |
The Army has been deployed for the first time since the refugee | :18:28. | :18:38. | |
crisis got piled onto Greece's other woes. | :18:39. | :18:42. | |
Because Europe is now threatening to freeze Greece out | :18:43. | :18:46. | |
unless it makes a better job of screening refugees. | :18:47. | :18:53. | |
We understand very well that there is a delay | :18:54. | :18:56. | |
in the development of European policy about this problem - | :18:57. | :18:59. | |
the problem of the war in Syria, and of course the problem | :19:00. | :19:02. | |
So we have to work with Europe, we have to work together with other | :19:03. | :19:09. | |
countries, to solve this problem that is a common problem. | :19:10. | :19:13. | |
Greece now is the brother of the whole Europe. | :19:14. | :19:16. | |
That means we are waiting and we are hosting the refugees | :19:17. | :19:19. | |
So there is an obligation for Europe also to help Greece for all this | :19:20. | :19:25. | |
This place is intended to shelter 1,500 refugees normally, | :19:26. | :19:32. | |
But for it to work as simply a waypoint on their journey north, | :19:33. | :19:39. | |
everyone in the EU has to cooperate, and the last few months hardly give | :19:40. | :19:43. | |
All of this work here is part of an EU plan to receive refugees, | :19:44. | :19:49. | |
process them, and then pass them on to other European countries. | :19:50. | :19:53. | |
But what people here will confess privately is that they are losing | :19:54. | :19:58. | |
faith that other Europeans will keep their part of this | :19:59. | :20:01. | |
bargain, and that very soon, Greece could find itself being cut | :20:02. | :20:03. | |
off from Schengen, from the rest of Europe, left to deal with this | :20:04. | :20:07. | |
An hour to the north of Thessaloniki is the Macedonian border. | :20:08. | :20:17. | |
And it's here that you can see an alternative future taking shape. | :20:18. | :20:23. | |
Egged on by Hungary and the rest of the states of the Visegrad Four, | :20:24. | :20:27. | |
the so-called double fence is being put in place, | :20:28. | :20:29. | |
As police from the Czech Republic and Slovakia - | :20:30. | :20:37. | |
also Visegrad countries - look on, people are checked for false papers. | :20:38. | :20:48. | |
For those watching waiting to be checked, it's one more stage | :20:49. | :21:00. | |
This man has already spent $1,500 travelling this far | :21:01. | :21:09. | |
If the Turkish catch us, I don't try it again. | :21:10. | :21:35. | |
This woman, too, was turned back, and quickly became distraught. | :21:36. | :21:40. | |
This is the human reality of tightened controls on those | :21:41. | :21:43. | |
who come through Greece with fake papers or as economic migrants. | :21:44. | :21:50. | |
There are other problems on this border too. | :21:51. | :21:53. | |
Those stemming from Greece's long struggle with EU-mandated austerity. | :21:54. | :21:59. | |
Farmers have taken to blocking the highway to Macedonia. | :22:00. | :22:06. | |
lumping us in with what they see as a hostile northern Europe. | :22:07. | :22:34. | |
Their organiser even stopped one farmer explaining their protest. | :22:35. | :22:41. | |
It's Greece's current crisis, and its poverty, that lead many | :22:42. | :22:44. | |
other EU countries to suppose that it cannot exercise proper | :22:45. | :22:48. | |
Macedonia, meanwhile, is coming under pressure | :22:49. | :22:54. | |
There's been so much protest here that | :22:55. | :22:59. | |
Between 10.00 and 12.00, the Macedonian taxi drivers, | :23:00. | :23:04. | |
who are upset that they are being cut out of the refugee-shifting | :23:05. | :23:07. | |
business do their thing, and from 2.00 until 4.00, | :23:08. | :23:10. | |
the Greek farmers blockade the other side. | :23:11. | :23:13. | |
They've got their own economic grievances with their government. | :23:14. | :23:18. | |
And it is upon these two governments, Greece and Macedonia, | :23:19. | :23:21. | |
that the EU rests its hopes for solving the migrant crisis. | :23:22. | :23:30. | |
Caught for years in the vice of economic crisis, Greeks now find | :23:31. | :23:34. | |
themselves under threat of being frozen out of Schengen. | :23:35. | :23:39. | |
Little wonder that people here don't know what else can be thrown at them | :23:40. | :23:42. | |
unless something happens to reduce the numbers using this country | :23:43. | :23:45. | |
Mark, briefly tell us if there is anything that can prove Greece some | :23:46. | :24:05. | |
hope that it will not be booted out from the Schengen zone? It is | :24:06. | :24:10. | |
fascinating. We noticed very few refugees in the transit facilities | :24:11. | :24:14. | |
near the border the other day. Yesterday, the police minister said | :24:15. | :24:17. | |
only 200 had come across from Turkey to the island. Today, some people | :24:18. | :24:23. | |
have said none at all. Potentially, this is very significant. The aid | :24:24. | :24:27. | |
organisations say, be careful, there have been dips before and the | :24:28. | :24:31. | |
numbers have picked up again. But some people are speculating it is to | :24:32. | :24:39. | |
do with the change of policy by Turkey, the possibility of Nato, the | :24:40. | :24:41. | |
certainty that Nato will soon come in, but the possibility that that | :24:42. | :24:44. | |
could have a dramatic affect on the smugglers. All of this will be | :24:45. | :24:49. | |
deeply significant not just for Greece, but for Chancellor Merkel's | :24:50. | :24:52. | |
political position back home. Some say it could cost her her job if | :24:53. | :24:56. | |
this carries on. Potentially, this could get very interesting in the | :24:57. | :25:01. | |
next few days, if we see if this pattern is something which signals a | :25:02. | :25:06. | |
new phase. Thank you. It is perhaps an under-reported | :25:07. | :25:08. | |
breakthrough that new drugs are now available to cure hepatitis C | :25:09. | :25:11. | |
in the vast majority of patients. Now you might say, "Three cheers | :25:12. | :25:14. | |
for the pharmaceutical industry!" It's cracked the problem | :25:15. | :25:17. | |
of a chronic viral condition that affects 200 million people | :25:18. | :25:19. | |
around the world. But you might alternatively think, | :25:20. | :25:21. | |
this just proves the evil of big pharma, because the new drugs | :25:22. | :25:24. | |
are priced very high. Hepatitis C raises the thorny | :25:25. | :25:28. | |
question as to what the rewards for drug companies' | :25:29. | :25:31. | |
innovation should be. In this country, the National | :25:32. | :25:35. | |
Institute for Health and Care Excellence for England | :25:36. | :25:38. | |
and Wales has given a green light to the expensive treatments | :25:39. | :25:40. | |
for many patients. That guidance should | :25:41. | :25:44. | |
take effect any day now, but some categories of patient, | :25:45. | :25:47. | |
still have to wait. The filmmaker Kate Brown had the HPC | :25:48. | :25:51. | |
virus, but has been cured of it, and looked at the challenge | :25:52. | :25:56. | |
for patients of getting the drugs. I'm waiting for the results, | :25:57. | :26:03. | |
for my end of treatment results. So she's going to fax them | :26:04. | :26:07. | |
straight through to him and hopefully he will | :26:08. | :26:11. | |
get back to me. Sean Reddin, desperate and unable | :26:12. | :26:13. | |
to get hepatitis C treatment within the health system has taken | :26:14. | :26:17. | |
matters into his own hands. Millions worldwide | :26:18. | :26:25. | |
face this dilemma. I have been making a film | :26:26. | :26:29. | |
about access to treatment for the hepatitis C | :26:30. | :26:32. | |
epidemic for over a year. It is highly contagious | :26:33. | :26:36. | |
and can cause cirrhosis Previously, treatment | :26:37. | :26:42. | |
was very toxic. Now there are new drugs which cure, | :26:43. | :26:47. | |
with virtually no side effects. I live in Germany, where | :26:48. | :26:53. | |
I was prescribed treatment I have come back to the UK to find | :26:54. | :26:55. | |
out why people here are not I'm starting with Dr Andrew Hill, | :26:56. | :27:04. | |
an expert in drug pricing. If you look at the cost | :27:05. | :27:15. | |
of these treatments, They cost ?100 per course | :27:16. | :27:17. | |
to make, 12 weeks of treatment That same treatment is being sold | :27:18. | :27:23. | |
in the United Kingdom for ?35,000. It is such a huge that | :27:24. | :27:31. | |
the National Health Service and NICE have been hesitating | :27:32. | :27:34. | |
to decide Dr Hill told me | :27:35. | :27:37. | |
about the US Senate's investigation into pricing, | :27:38. | :27:46. | |
which has focused on one particular Using Gilead's own documents, | :27:47. | :27:49. | |
the evidence shows that the company pursued a calculated | :27:50. | :27:59. | |
scheme for pricing and marketing its hepatitis C drug, | :28:00. | :28:05. | |
based on one goal, maximising revenue regardless | :28:06. | :28:09. | |
of the human consequences. How many billions do | :28:10. | :28:17. | |
they need to make before These drugs are fundamentally cheap | :28:18. | :28:19. | |
but they are not being accessed by most people because | :28:20. | :28:24. | |
the prices are so high. One of the reasons why there's | :28:25. | :28:29. | |
so little protest about the high price of hepatitis C treatment | :28:30. | :28:32. | |
is that patients I went back to see my old doctor | :28:33. | :28:34. | |
to ask him about this stigma. Being silent about hepatitis C | :28:35. | :28:41. | |
is doing no one any favours. I think there is | :28:42. | :28:46. | |
incredible amount of stigma and I think that stigma | :28:47. | :28:49. | |
probably comes from the days of hepatitis C being labelled | :28:50. | :28:53. | |
as a disease of intravenous drug use, and of intravenous | :28:54. | :28:57. | |
drug users, not being I went to see Dr Magdalena Harris, | :28:58. | :29:00. | |
who is researching the experiences For them, a trip to the dentist is | :29:01. | :29:09. | |
always complicated. The issue of the last appointment, | :29:10. | :29:15. | |
I have been hearing it for the last ten years and conducting research | :29:16. | :29:18. | |
into people who have hepatitis C. I am given the last appointment | :29:19. | :29:22. | |
of the day by my dentist We need to de-stigmatise this | :29:23. | :29:25. | |
and say this is an infection, it is no different from | :29:26. | :29:32. | |
any other infection. It is an infection that people catch | :29:33. | :29:34. | |
and needs to be treated. One person who has not | :29:35. | :29:39. | |
been able to access NHS treatment Recently diagnosed, her appointments | :29:40. | :29:42. | |
keep getting postponed. She isn't sure how she was infected | :29:43. | :29:49. | |
with hepatitis C. What is she planning | :29:50. | :29:52. | |
to do about treatment? I don't know what I | :29:53. | :29:55. | |
should do, really. I suppose, I mean, I have been | :29:56. | :29:59. | |
trying to sign up with trials, I know you can also get | :30:00. | :30:06. | |
drugs from India cheaper. Zsuzsanna's life and health | :30:07. | :30:14. | |
is being badly infected because she is not | :30:15. | :30:20. | |
getting treatment. Ten years ago when I had breast | :30:21. | :30:25. | |
cancer and stopped HRT, During the last ten years, I have | :30:26. | :30:28. | |
gradually got worse. My mobility has been | :30:29. | :30:39. | |
drastically reduced. Whereas before I could walk | :30:40. | :30:46. | |
for hours, without getting tired, now I don't, I am not | :30:47. | :30:53. | |
able to walk at all. Some people are taking treatment | :30:54. | :30:56. | |
into their own hands, Buying drugs off the | :30:57. | :31:03. | |
internet is a new thing. It is an emerging way | :31:04. | :31:11. | |
of being treated. One issue is, do you know | :31:12. | :31:15. | |
that the medicine you are Sean Reddin could not get | :31:16. | :31:18. | |
treatment in Ireland. The Irish health service, | :31:19. | :31:26. | |
like the NHS, Online, he found the | :31:27. | :31:29. | |
Australian-based Through them, he bought clinically | :31:30. | :31:34. | |
tested generic drugs. I became a member | :31:35. | :31:42. | |
of the Buyers' Club. I had my appointment | :31:43. | :31:45. | |
via Skype with Dr Freeman. I sent him all my documentation | :31:46. | :31:50. | |
from my blood test results from Ireland, and he said, | :31:51. | :31:56. | |
yes, it is possible, if I come over to Australia, | :31:57. | :32:01. | |
he could give them to me. Sean paid about ?750 | :32:02. | :32:06. | |
for treatment that will cost And have now completed 12 weeks | :32:07. | :32:11. | |
of treatment last Monday. I am now waiting for my end | :32:12. | :32:19. | |
of treatment results as we speak. My GP Dr Johnny Fleetwood | :32:20. | :32:30. | |
of Dublin is on the phone. He has the result of my end | :32:31. | :32:34. | |
of treatment tests and so, A little bit apprehensive and | :32:35. | :32:40. | |
nervous but excited Excellent, Johnny, | :32:41. | :32:48. | |
that is brilliant news! I have lived with | :32:49. | :32:57. | |
hepatitis since 1980. In the UK, it is legal to get | :32:58. | :33:08. | |
three months' treatment delivered to your door, | :33:09. | :33:19. | |
so for those patients who can pay for it, the online buyers' | :33:20. | :33:22. | |
club may be an option, but most will have to wait and see | :33:23. | :33:24. | |
if the NHS can afford to treat them. This is billions of pounds | :33:25. | :33:28. | |
of funding at a time when the NHS is in a very difficult | :33:29. | :33:31. | |
financial situation. So it just does not | :33:32. | :33:35. | |
seem feasible that we will be able to eliminate hepatitis | :33:36. | :33:38. | |
C within the next 15 or 20 years, with prices this high, but we could, | :33:39. | :33:43. | |
we definitely could if we could get We asked to speak to Gilead | :33:44. | :33:48. | |
about the cost of their drugs but instead they sent us | :33:49. | :33:57. | |
a statement: While we appreciate Senator Wyden's | :33:58. | :34:01. | |
attention to this issue, we respectfully disagree with his | :34:02. | :34:03. | |
conclusions. With me now is Dr Virginia Acha, | :34:04. | :34:23. | |
Executive Director of the Association of the British | :34:24. | :34:26. | |
Pharmaceutical Industry. Good evening. We know that the drug | :34:27. | :34:39. | |
companies have to be recommended for the billions they spend on research. | :34:40. | :34:43. | |
Is there any limit to the price they should be allowed to charge? We are | :34:44. | :34:48. | |
focusing a lot on price. In that video I didn't hear anything about | :34:49. | :34:54. | |
the value we are getting from the way these medicines are being | :34:55. | :34:58. | |
introduced into health care. When NICE gives approval, it's not just | :34:59. | :35:04. | |
because we think the treatment is great. It's because they have | :35:05. | :35:09. | |
decided that it makes sense to give the British public this medication. | :35:10. | :35:16. | |
No one will dispute that these are great drugs. Let's suppose it has | :35:17. | :35:23. | |
?100,000 benefit. Is it reasonable for the drug company to charge | :35:24. | :35:31. | |
?99,000? That is the benefit of the system we have in the UK. Let's be | :35:32. | :35:36. | |
honest, the list price we have been hearing about isn't necessarily what | :35:37. | :35:40. | |
the health care services will pay. There's some very effective and | :35:41. | :35:44. | |
competitive discounts going on. Might we be paying less than the | :35:45. | :35:50. | |
?35,000? I would almost guarantee that within the process that we | :35:51. | :35:56. | |
access medication, the government does a very good job of making sure | :35:57. | :36:02. | |
it is being a careful buyer when they are investing in new medicines. | :36:03. | :36:06. | |
It's not just a case of one medicine. We have at least three | :36:07. | :36:11. | |
hepatitis C products all competing for that very treatment area. | :36:12. | :36:16. | |
Competition will be driving value, no doubt. We give Gilead monopoly on | :36:17. | :36:22. | |
the one they've got, which is the one that has the best genotype use. | :36:23. | :36:27. | |
We give them the monopoly through patents, which allows them to charge | :36:28. | :36:32. | |
the high price. Would it be reasonable for society to say, if | :36:33. | :36:37. | |
you are going to abuse it, we will shorten the patents? Patents are | :36:38. | :36:44. | |
very important to protect investment in our NDA. A patents and allows you | :36:45. | :36:48. | |
to disclose and protect your investment. Pricing should be a | :36:49. | :36:53. | |
separate conversation. When we look at the value of any drug, and I | :36:54. | :36:58. | |
wouldn't compare between the different hepatitis C products | :36:59. | :37:02. | |
necessarily, but when you look at how they are going to negotiate | :37:03. | :37:06. | |
their value, they will look not just at what it costs to bring them to | :37:07. | :37:10. | |
market, but what it means for patients. It is sad that patients | :37:11. | :37:15. | |
are having to work so hard to get a medication that is approved by NICE. | :37:16. | :37:23. | |
If you had hepatitis C and the health care system said they would | :37:24. | :37:28. | |
not buy you the drugs, would you go to a buyers' club? With my | :37:29. | :37:34. | |
background, I used to work a lot in regular systems. I would be | :37:35. | :37:38. | |
concerned working on a system that didn't go through the normal | :37:39. | :37:43. | |
channels. Come on. You would take it, wouldn't you? I can see the ways | :37:44. | :37:48. | |
that we can abuse people's trust on the Internet, so I would like to | :37:49. | :37:53. | |
keep people in the safe, sound system of the NHS. Thank you. | :37:54. | :37:56. | |
Atheism is not as modern a creed as you might think. | :37:57. | :38:00. | |
A new book called Battling The Gods looks at disbelief in God | :38:01. | :38:03. | |
in the ancient world and finds it is not the case | :38:04. | :38:05. | |
That's perhaps contrary to the view that atheism is a feature | :38:06. | :38:09. | |
The author is Tim Whitmarsh, Professor of Greek Culture | :38:10. | :38:12. | |
and a Fellow of St John's College, University of Cambridge. | :38:13. | :38:15. | |
Good evening. You are talking about the Romans and the Greeks, and | :38:16. | :38:27. | |
atheism there. How did we miss the fact that there were a lot of | :38:28. | :38:32. | |
disbelievers at the time? I'm not the first person to have noticed | :38:33. | :38:36. | |
that there were disbelievers in antiquity. The book pulls together | :38:37. | :38:40. | |
all of this material. Part of the reason why people have not | :38:41. | :38:44. | |
historically focused on this thing is because we see the Greeks and | :38:45. | :38:49. | |
Romans as pre-Christian, and define them as the antithesis of | :38:50. | :38:54. | |
Christianity. The Greeks and the Romans had to be about outward | :38:55. | :39:00. | |
ritual acts and so forth, and a lot of it was. But they did have this | :39:01. | :39:05. | |
issue of belief in the gods. Essentially, at the time, they | :39:06. | :39:09. | |
didn't know that the Earth revolved around the sun. They didn't know a | :39:10. | :39:14. | |
lot. What were the grounds of people being atheistic? You can see why | :39:15. | :39:20. | |
gods and their moods would have been explanations for quite a lot of | :39:21. | :39:26. | |
things. It's very interesting. That argument that says there was a time | :39:27. | :39:30. | |
when people were naive and silly and believed that the heavenly bodies | :39:31. | :39:35. | |
were gods and so forth was in the past, and we moved beyond that, but | :39:36. | :39:39. | |
the Greeks themselves did beyond that, on occasion. The idea that | :39:40. | :39:44. | |
their original people lived in squalid disorder and so forth, and | :39:45. | :39:51. | |
they miss perceived the patterns of the celestial bodies, and nowadays | :39:52. | :39:56. | |
we don't believe that any more. It is exactly the same trait. You talk | :39:57. | :40:00. | |
about those periods. But religion becomes more dogmatic and | :40:01. | :40:05. | |
monotheistic. Atheism is perhaps a little harder in the monotheistic | :40:06. | :40:13. | |
era. Yes. When Christianity comes in, you get a lot of legislation | :40:14. | :40:20. | |
about the nature of belief. Christianity isn't hardest on | :40:21. | :40:25. | |
atheists. It is hardest on Christians who don't believe in the | :40:26. | :40:30. | |
correct way. A code drawn up in late Antiquity to try and dictate the | :40:31. | :40:36. | |
kind of beliefs that were prof, it is the Christian heretics forget it | :40:37. | :40:44. | |
worse. Your basic purpose is to say that your basic beings are | :40:45. | :40:47. | |
instinctively religious until science comes along and says, hey | :40:48. | :40:52. | |
guys, the earth goes around the sun and it isn't the gods, is wrong, | :40:53. | :40:59. | |
basically. I think it... It is a hunch, I cannot prove it, but it is | :41:00. | :41:04. | |
a hunch that in all cultures at all times, there were people who | :41:05. | :41:08. | |
disbelieved in the gods. You do not need a science and secularism to | :41:09. | :41:14. | |
understand it. The other thing is that the new atheists - there is | :41:15. | :41:17. | |
something in the book to annoy everyone - the new atheists didn't | :41:18. | :41:27. | |
believe either. Richard Hawkins and that lot, the new atheists, ten to | :41:28. | :41:32. | |
talk about the invention of atheism as though it were solely a product | :41:33. | :41:39. | |
of science. But in the past, a lot of people became atheists, in the | :41:40. | :41:43. | |
18th-century, for example, by reading the classics. Good luck with | :41:44. | :41:49. | |
the book. Thank you very much. Just time to congratulate our very | :41:50. | :41:53. | |
own Chris Cook, who tonight shared the RTS scoop of the year award | :41:54. | :41:57. | |
with Buzzfeed | :41:58. | :42:00. |