18/02/2016 Newsnight


18/02/2016

All the latest on David Cameron's EU negotiations, plus interviews with Lord Mandelson and Ukip leader Nigel Farage. Presented by Evan Davis.


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Transcript


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After months of preening and posturing, the official arguing

:00:07.:00:08.

The Prime Minister arrives in Brussels,

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armed with an appropriately strident metaphor.

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If we can get a good deal, I'll take that

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But I will not take a deal that does not meet what we need.

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We'll ask the Ukip leader how he'd battle for Britain.

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And Lord Mandelson knows who's side he's on.

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I do want him to stick out for a good deal.

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Because if he comes back with some pup, he won't be able to sell it

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and that will pull the rug out from underneath the referendum

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So he's right, I'm afraid, to go for the detail.

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David Grossman's our man on the lookout in Brussels.

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The merest whiff of a deal is in the air, not least

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because Europe is desperate to start talking about

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Are in Germany, they want a deal as where European power really lies.

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Are in Germany, they want a deal as soon as possible, so they can push

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on to discuss the refugee crisis. And not only are we in Britain,

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Brussels, and Berlin, They try to do their best

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to be good citizens. It is a rule of negotiations that

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you don't know how they've gone, until they're over, when you find

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out who was bluffing These decisive European Council

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talks in Brussels fall It's hard to read

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them mid-way through. But that's not going

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to stop us trying. Our political editor

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David Grossman is in Brussels. David, I take it the odds are

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against us and the situation is grim? Exactly. The latest briefing

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we got from Downing Street was that there was little or no progress at

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the first working session. In truth we did not expect there to be much

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progress. The first working session is when you identify the elephants

:02:23.:02:27.

in the room, make them explicit. It is later that you try to reduce them

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to a manageable side. The bilaterals will start in the next half hour and

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during that time the legal minds of the EU will try to work out how to

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give Britain the exemptions and status in the EU without dismantling

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the treaties. That progress probably will happen tonight, tomorrow

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morning. One new development that is interesting is the Belgians,

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supported by the French, asked for explicit wording in the final

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declaration that says it is a one-time deal for Britain. That

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means there is no coming back after voting to come out of the EU in a

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referendum and saying we want to go out a better deal. We put that to

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number 10 earlier. They said they had not seen that version of a text

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but would look at it with interest. You get the feeling they don't want

:03:23.:03:25.

the idea to permeate around Britain you can vote to come out and really

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stay in, because of negotiations at a later date. We shall see what

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happens. In terms of the timetable, when do

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you think we will hear what the outcome is?

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Definitely not tonight. In half an hour we expect to hear perhaps from

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Donald Tusk, the EU Council president who might give an idea how

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the bilaterals will phase out during the back. Tomorrow there was an ATM

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session which has been moved to 11am to allow them more time. -- ATM

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session. This is the top of the mountain of diplomacy that David

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Cameron has constructed since the general election.

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No one can say that David Cameron has not put in the miles looking for

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a deal. The final few yards towards the summit along the Brussels red

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carpet this afternoon. We have important work to do today and

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tomorrow. It will be hard. I will be battling for Britain. If we can get

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a good deal I will take that deal but I will not take a deal but does

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not meet what we need. It is more important to get this right than do

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anything in a rush but with goodwill and hard work we can get a better

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deal for Britain. Mr Cameron knows the other EU

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leaders are just as anxious as he to reach a deal. They want the EU to

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start talking about something else other than Britain. The leader of

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one of the big groupings in the parliament is saying. We do not want

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to take part in further political integration of the union. I think we

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have to recognise that. Let's put that special status in the treaties.

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And so give that special status to Britain. We cannot continue the

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fight. There is plenty of concern in Brussels of what they call

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contagion. Other countries demanding the same concessions Britain is

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seeking. We struggled for many years in the European Union to have the

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same treatment for citizens, to have the same rights for each citizen and

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same access to the single market for each citizen. When we start making

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differences, it can go further. Those principles should not be

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watered down. I regret the EU is being watered down. This is not the

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benefit of the Brits. At the centre of one of the European Parliament's

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buildings is a noisy metal sculpture. Move one part and a

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distant arm two floors up knocks against the Labour. A structure that

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should work in harmony but a lot of work to do. This is a Flemish MEP

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who wants the British deal to reverberate around the continent.

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There is discussion on the contagious effects of the deal and

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everyone saying it should be specific for Great Britain. We need

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to have the same debate and advantages for all member states so

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what Britain can do on social benefits, migration,

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competitiveness, we need to be able to do that because if they decided

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to leave we will need these exchanges. While David Cameron was

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with EU leaders, look who we spotted at the European Parliament. Jeremy

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Corbyn in Brussels for a meeting of European Socialists. I think the

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reforms David Cameron and I want are rather different. I want improved

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protection for working conditions, I want to see continuing right of

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movement across Europe for people and I am concerned about secretive

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negotiations of the transatlantic and trade partnership which David

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Cameron supports. I don't support secretive negotiations, I think we

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want something different. Are you looking forward to a long night,

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asked David Cameron, as he sits with Donald Tusk. It is Donald Tusk's job

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to steer the heads of government towards a deal. The crucial

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ingredient that exists in Brussels is common purpose. Everyone wants to

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reach consensus. Tonight the objection still stand from Eastern

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Europe over benefits. And France over Britain's influence over the

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eurogroup's reforms Belgium over abandoning the phrase ever closer

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union. Even so, chances are that come tomorrow David Cameron will

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return to the UK with a deal to recommend to the country. David

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Grossman with the hand of history almost on his shoulder.

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Earlier I spoke to Lord Mandelson - Peter Mandelson - the former Labour

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Cabinet minister, a relatively successful election campaigner

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and a one-time European Commissioner.

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He is now on the board of Britain Stronger in Europe.

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I asked him if the critics are right to say David Cameron has been

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unambitious in his renegotiation. I am not sure he has been unambitious.

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In fact he has got further than I expected him to do. If I had any

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criticism of Cameron it would be this. The sort of engagement and

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relationships he has built during this negotiation would have been

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much better if he had started the process along time ago. In a sense

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he is trying to achieve too much in too short a time. I think that the

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deal he will get, if it is anything like that originally outlined, will

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be relevant, it will be useful, and I think it will be able to be sold.

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I think it is a quintessentially British thing, saying we are in

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Europe, but we do not want to go further into Europe will stop we

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believe in the economic partnership we have that gives us advantages,

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these benefits, but we do not want to be signing up to some one-way

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train heading towards a federal Europe. Shall I tell you why? I

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think the rest of Europe does not want to go on that train either. I

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wonder if one of the problems your side of the argument is the

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perception that this is a bracket that has been imposed on

:10:06.:10:13.

populations, by an elite, of whom frankly you are. If there is an

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element of truth in what he was saying, basically, people will be

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offered a choice between people like us and a bunch of nationalistic

:10:24.:10:30.

fanatics on the other side. We have to draw back from the labels and

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name calling and instead have a serious and informed factually

:10:37.:10:40.

-based debate about Europe of the sort we have not seen in Britain in

:10:41.:10:44.

my adult life. We know emotion will play a part, it will not just be

:10:45.:10:50.

about the facts of trade, it will be about gut feeling. Emma Thompson was

:10:51.:10:56.

in Berlin. She is a supporter of staying in. She described Britain as

:10:57.:11:03.

a tiny cloud bolted, rainy corner, a cake filled, Ms relayed in grey old

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island. Which I say she is entitled to her opinion. I do not happen to

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agree with it! Is there a sense, called luvvies, new Labour, people

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who do not quite gets... You are very free with your labels delight.

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Luvvies and new Labour. Sweeping generalisations! I am trying to

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provoke you into answering the idea this is a big problem for the Remain

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campaign. What people are worried about in Britain are the basics of

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day-to-day lives. They want secure, well-paid jobs. They want

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well-financed, properly run public services. These are the things who

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concern people voting in this referendum. If Emma Thompson wants

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to make it about whether you are pro, anti-jam filled sponge cakes,

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that is up to her! She and everyone else has a lot to contribute to the

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debate and let it commence. Let's talk about the Remain campaign, what

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should the pitch be? There has been talk about Project Fear, the idea

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you try to scare the country. Are you a project via person? I am a

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Project HOPE person will stop a project ambition person. Those who

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advocate we leave the European Union, in my opinion, are saying we

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should take a huge leap into the unknown. They think it is worth the

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risk. Nigel Farage said to me, we will pay a price. He like others who

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support him have said jobs will be at risk. Yes, investment might be

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affected. They say it is worth taking this economic risk, worth

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putting jobs in jeopardy in this way, because we will have more

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control over our country. It may be a smaller, weaker country, maybe

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less prosperous, but at least we would have control. I think that is

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a fantasy. I would rather have a strong, large, prosperous, safe

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country, where in certain circumstances and areas, in policies

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and government activity, we work with other countries in order to

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make ourselves more prosperous and safer. That is an important

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principle. The person who enunciated that first in 1975, was Margaret

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Thatcher. How important is it the personalities in your camp, and I am

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thinking of one personality, Boris Johnson,? I think he is fun. He

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would be such enjoyable company to have in a campaign. Whether he would

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determine its outcome is a different matter. Labour's position, you are

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comfortable where labour is? He has not been prominent, Jeremy Corbyn,

:14:11.:14:11.

in the campaign? I think, actually, in the statement

:14:12.:14:13.

he made today, he was making quite He was basically saying Labour

:14:14.:14:16.

is absolutely for Britain staying Then he had a lot of potshots

:14:17.:14:19.

at the Prime Minister - But then he dismissed out

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of hand what the Prime Minister Now, I happen to believe that people

:14:25.:14:28.

in this country don't want to pull They don't like this

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sense that people can come here and take

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us for a ride. In other member states,

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they have a contributory system I've seen and discussed it

:14:58.:15:00.

in a different context. So that people are

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working and paying taxes and putting in before

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they have the right to take out. I think what David Cameron is doing

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in establishing that principle here and saying there is not

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an immediate unconditional right to access to our

:15:12.:15:14.

welfare system from the word go, I think that is what people

:15:15.:15:17.

would regard as fair, and therefore I

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think it is a completely legitimate part of the negotiation

:15:22.:15:24.

he is undertaking in Brussels. And I think

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if Jeremy Corbyn does not understand that,

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he is not really on the same What is interesting listening to you

:15:32.:15:50.

is that it seems as though there is, let's call it a soggy centre in

:15:51.:15:52.

British politics. Some would say, Peter Mandelson

:15:53.:16:06.

sounds like a Tory, for example. But you are closer to Cameron, aren't

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you? You are closer to Osborne...? What I want is for Britain to remain

:16:14.:16:17.

in the European Union because it is important for our prosperity and

:16:18.:16:21.

safety. We have more power as a country in the rest of the world by

:16:22.:16:25.

being in the European Union than we would have outside. Therefore I

:16:26.:16:29.

think that what Cameron is negotiating in Brussels is

:16:30.:16:32.

important. I don't think it is irrelevant. And yes, actually I do

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want him to stick out for a good deal. If he comes back with

:16:37.:16:42.

something less, he will not be able to sell it, which will pull the rug

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from underneath the referendum campaign. Soldiers right to go to

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the wire. Suppose we remain in, is that the end of the matter, do you

:16:53.:16:57.

think? I think it is the end of the matter for Britain in Europe, yes.

:16:58.:17:01.

But for reform in Europe? And on and it should not be. This needs to be

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the beginning of a process, a platform for changing Europe in the

:17:06.:17:11.

future. Because and really do believe that the European Union

:17:12.:17:15.

needs to build bridges. It needs to build bridges between those in the

:17:16.:17:20.

euro and those outside. But also, it needs to build some bridges between

:17:21.:17:31.

itself and its citizens. You heard Lord Mandelson referring to Nigel

:17:32.:17:34.

Farage. Why don't we talk to him now?! Good evening to you! I want to

:17:35.:17:39.

start by just clarifying the point he made about you, which is, he said

:17:40.:17:43.

you had told him that you would sacrifice a few jobs and some

:17:44.:17:48.

prosperity in order to get more control over our destiny - is that

:17:49.:17:54.

right? I will say, what a marvellous interview, Evan, to hear Lord

:17:55.:17:58.

Mandelson at his fraudulent best was wonderful entertainment, and I'm

:17:59.:18:03.

sure the viewers enjoyed it. Quite why he thinks he can speak for me, I

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have no idea. He is right in one sense, that some people would lose

:18:09.:18:11.

their job. Our 73 MPs would lose their jobs. Our European Commission,

:18:12.:18:17.

and by the way, viewers, his name is Lord Hill. You cannot vote for him,

:18:18.:18:22.

he would lose his job. And I have no doubt that highly paid bureaucrats

:18:23.:18:26.

in the European Commission would lose their jobs. Beyond that,

:18:27.:18:29.

absolutely nobody would lose their jobs. Because we will go on buying

:18:30.:18:34.

motorcars and goods and services with the European market place, but

:18:35.:18:38.

crucially we would be free to make with the European market place, but

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our own trade deals with the rest of the world. Lord Mandelson, nice try,

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but I am sorry, old son, you do not speak for me. You have given it back

:18:47.:18:51.

to him with both barrels. You have basically said it is all a bit of a

:18:52.:18:56.

Sharad, it is nothing. And yet a lot of people ask Arena round taking it

:18:57.:19:00.

extremely seriously, because they think this hard renegotiation is

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hard work - is it your contention that it is all just one enormous

:19:08.:19:12.

act, or do you concede that they are doing some serious talking? I am

:19:13.:19:17.

sorry, you cannot put words into my mouth, either. I have never called

:19:18.:19:22.

this a conspiracy. Do not try to frame what I'm going to say in those

:19:23.:19:26.

terms. When, three years ago, the Prime Minister in his room Burke

:19:27.:19:30.

speech spoke about a referendum if he became Prime Minister, he talked

:19:31.:19:35.

about fundamental change. He spoke about treaty change, he talked about

:19:36.:19:40.

power is coming back to Britain, he talked about a negotiation over

:19:41.:19:42.

whether we could control our borders. He even talked laughably

:19:43.:19:47.

about reforming the European Union itself. None of that has happened.

:19:48.:19:52.

What has happened here tonight, and yes, you're right, it is being taken

:19:53.:19:56.

seriously, but what has happened is that we have got the British Prime

:19:57.:20:00.

Minister, rather like Oliver twist, coming along with his begging bowl

:20:01.:20:04.

and saying, please, sir, can we have some more concessions? Can we extend

:20:05.:20:11.

the reduction in migrant benefits perhaps to ten years or beyond?

:20:12.:20:14.

There are some countries, led by the Czech Republic, saying, we do not

:20:15.:20:21.

want this. My belief is this. Firstly, there is no fundamental

:20:22.:20:24.

debate going on tonight about Britain's relationship with the

:20:25.:20:28.

European Union, only about a tiny aspect of it. And secondly, I think

:20:29.:20:32.

most of what you are seeing here is theatre. It is the from Mr Cameron.

:20:33.:20:36.

It is theatre from the other leaders. And they will be in

:20:37.:20:40.

agreement mid-morning tomorrow. One thing doing the rounds tonight,

:20:41.:20:45.

which is pretty interesting is the idea that there will not be a second

:20:46.:20:51.

referendum. This negotiation is it. You presumably would like that,

:20:52.:20:56.

because you think this should be it, you will accept the referendum

:20:57.:20:59.

result, whatever it is, and that will be final, we cannot keep coming

:21:00.:21:06.

back year after year? Well, as a veteran of this place, I have seen

:21:07.:21:10.

two Irish referendums, whether people have rejected European

:21:11.:21:14.

treaties and they have been and bullied in second referendums, where

:21:15.:21:17.

one side out spent the other massively, into subjugating second

:21:18.:21:23.

time around. We saw it in the 1990s with Denmark. The idea which has

:21:24.:21:28.

been put about by voter leave and others, that may be a second

:21:29.:21:31.

referendum is a clever way of selling this wreckage to the British

:21:32.:21:35.

people, I do not agree with that. We have got to motivate people to get

:21:36.:21:41.

up off their armchairs and get down to the polling station, even if they

:21:42.:21:44.

have never voted in their lives before. I'm going to say a big, big

:21:45.:21:49.

thank you tonight to the French and the Belgians for putting into this

:21:50.:21:54.

final communique that this is it, this is our once-in-a-lifetime

:21:55.:21:57.

opportunity to get back control of our country, and I absolutely

:21:58.:22:04.

welcome that. You mentioned Vote Leave,, which is the other campaign.

:22:05.:22:08.

One feature of what has been happening so far is that you guys on

:22:09.:22:13.

your side of the Argent have been arguing with each other as much as

:22:14.:22:17.

with the other side. Are you going to be at this meeting on Tuesday

:22:18.:22:20.

when you all bash your heads together? I have tried four or five

:22:21.:22:24.

times to meet with them, it is impossible. I am not convinced they

:22:25.:22:33.

even want to leave. What has happened here is very simple. There

:22:34.:22:37.

has been a pitched battle going on between Vote Leave and leave.dot.eu,

:22:38.:22:48.

and this is why the other group has come together. We will be having a

:22:49.:22:52.

big meeting tomorrow night in Westminster. On that platform, we

:22:53.:22:56.

will have people from the right, left and centre of British politics.

:22:57.:23:01.

Go has broken the deadlock. Go has now applied for the designation. And

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we welcome the support of leave.dot.eu and if they can bring

:23:06.:23:07.

themselves to do it, Vote Leave as well. Nigel Farage, thanks very much

:23:08.:23:11.

indeed. Love it or hate it, it has seemed

:23:12.:23:15.

like we are on a one-way road towards greater

:23:16.:23:21.

integration and unity. Then came the Greek crisis,

:23:22.:23:24.

incessant bickering between other EU members,

:23:25.:23:28.

and now, potential Brexit. And suddenly, it seems

:23:29.:23:31.

Europe might turn round, and drive away from

:23:32.:23:33.

unity, not towards it. Nowhere is this causing more

:23:34.:23:36.

nervousness than Germany. Mark Urban is in Berlin today

:23:37.:23:40.

to look at the fears there. Out of the German wartime

:23:41.:23:46.

cauldron came the impetus For the war generation,

:23:47.:23:48.

the purpose of the European It stood as the polar

:23:49.:23:57.

opposite to the horror of war and for

:23:58.:24:04.

the construction of peace, literally, through the ever closer

:24:05.:24:07.

union of Europe's peoples. But there are now senior

:24:08.:24:11.

figures here who wonder whether all of that is

:24:12.:24:15.

being called into doubt. For those at the top of politics

:24:16.:24:18.

here, it is the migrant crisis that has created a real

:24:19.:24:23.

threat to the entire I consider this crisis to be

:24:24.:24:25.

of an existentialist I would say every part

:24:26.:24:30.

has to be ready for I see a dramatic lack

:24:31.:24:37.

of the willingness to compromise on this issue, and we can probably

:24:38.:24:48.

experience a fundamental existential crisis to the cohesion

:24:49.:24:55.

of the European Union. Some believe that at least

:24:56.:24:58.

the challenge of British renegotiation has caused Germany

:24:59.:25:04.

and the EU to debate Europe's Ever closer union,

:25:05.:25:06.

it is the founding lie They honestly believe,

:25:07.:25:13.

the elite believed, a lot of people believed, that somehow Europe

:25:14.:25:19.

would develop into a superstate. It has been the position

:25:20.:25:23.

of Britain all along - Tony Blair said it,

:25:24.:25:26.

superpower not a superstate, and now Cameron has

:25:27.:25:29.

got it in writing, that

:25:30.:25:31.

this is not going to happen. It has not sunk home

:25:32.:25:33.

for the Germans yet. The current generation of leaders

:25:34.:25:38.

here has been shaped by the collapse of communism and welcoming

:25:39.:25:44.

Eastern Europe back into the family. after the fall of the Wall

:25:45.:25:47.

and the reunification of Germany in Europe, people saw

:25:48.:25:51.

that as a triumph to be proud of, but now the migration

:25:52.:25:55.

crisis has opened up fissures, We have a new situation where we

:25:56.:26:11.

have to defend our values, where we have to talk about values again.

:26:12.:26:15.

What are our values? And we have more and more the emergence of a rev

:26:16.:26:21.

counter model to Western liberal democracies, within Europe. Coming

:26:22.:26:26.

from Hungary, perhaps now from Poland. And everywhere you look, it

:26:27.:26:35.

is about the West, the Europeans, have to redefine their identity with

:26:36.:26:40.

regard to the challenges from outside and from inside.

:26:41.:26:47.

Berlin is currently playing host to its film festival.

:26:48.:26:49.

In the capital of Europe's most populous country and powerhouse

:26:50.:26:53.

economy, they are trying to set the tone in culture

:26:54.:26:57.

The EU's multiple crises - the euro, Brexit and migration -

:26:58.:27:04.

have brought about another change here.

:27:05.:27:07.

And that is a sober realisation of Germany's

:27:08.:27:10.

responsibility of leadership in Europe.

:27:11.:27:13.

And that won't change, regardless of how those individual

:27:14.:27:17.

As the Germans look at us negotiating a few concessions, and

:27:18.:27:34.

things we want, is there anything they find attractive in that

:27:35.:27:39.

package, perhaps child benefit or anything, something attractive which

:27:40.:27:45.

perhaps they would like to have? Well, don't forget, Evan, as David

:27:46.:27:49.

Cameron goes into battle tonight, to a great extent, the Germans have

:27:50.:27:53.

tuned up his offer, or his proposal, if you like, and done so over

:27:54.:27:58.

several months. There are bits of it, on the competitiveness agenda,

:27:59.:28:02.

completing the single market, that the Germans love. There are bits of

:28:03.:28:07.

it which they are agnostic about - the commitment to the ever closer

:28:08.:28:10.

union point, or getting that out of the way for Britain. And then there

:28:11.:28:14.

is this issue of freedom of movement, which they tried

:28:15.:28:18.

initially, well, they succeeded I think in convincing David Cameron to

:28:19.:28:23.

step back from going too far on that, from comp rising on what they

:28:24.:28:27.

see as fundamental principles, and they have now got him on the benefit

:28:28.:28:31.

cap area, which as you suggest, I think there are some people in

:28:32.:28:35.

Germany who can see that there would be Exchequer benefits for Germany as

:28:36.:28:39.

well, if that goes through. On the other side, is there much sign of

:28:40.:28:42.

German fatigue with the Brits requiring that the whole union sit

:28:43.:28:47.

down and talk about our needs rather than all the other things going on?

:28:48.:28:54.

Look, they want to keep Britain in, they want a deal. But one senior

:28:55.:28:59.

politician said to me today, all of this for such a small matters. They

:29:00.:29:04.

think David Cameron is taking a big risk in terms of possibly taking

:29:05.:29:07.

Britain out of the EU on these issues, which they do not think,

:29:08.:29:10.

Britain out of the EU on these many of them, are actually worth

:29:11.:29:13.

that sort of gamble. I think there is also a sense here that at the

:29:14.:29:18.

moment, when the crisis over refugees poses such a threat, what

:29:19.:29:26.

many people in Angela Merkel's party see as an excess tension threat to

:29:27.:29:31.

the EU, that so much time should be devoted to this, and that Chancellor

:29:32.:29:34.

Merkel should be in some sense weakened or held back by her

:29:35.:29:38.

advocacy of Britain on that point. They would rather focus on that

:29:39.:29:41.

issue and push on to try to get some sort of agreement on the refugee

:29:42.:29:43.

question. Thank you very much. We've talked a lot in recent weeks

:29:44.:29:48.

about the "emergency brake" on migrant benefits, and migrants

:29:49.:29:50.

coming from Poland and elsewhere. It is one of the key sticking points

:29:51.:29:53.

of the deal being negotiated over You have heard politicians,

:29:54.:29:56.

you have heard experts pontificate We've talked a lot in recent weeks

:29:57.:30:16.

about the "emergency brake" on migrant benefits, and migrants

:30:17.:30:18.

coming from Poland and elsewhere. It is one of the key sticking points

:30:19.:30:21.

of the deal being negotiated over You have heard politicians,

:30:22.:30:24.

you have heard experts pontificate But we have found a better place

:30:25.:30:27.

to get the lowdown on this - the 11am bus to London,

:30:28.:30:32.

departing from Krakow in Poland. Yesterday, our producer

:30:33.:30:35.

Maria Polachowska caught that bus and she arrived an hour late,

:30:36.:30:37.

at 1230 today, with a disk full I have been working

:30:38.:30:40.

here for over ten years. Most people appreciate

:30:41.:30:44.

the UK because they can If you work in Poland,

:30:45.:30:49.

the minimum wage is like And you can't pay your bills,

:30:50.:30:55.

you can't rent a flat. And then you go to England,

:30:56.:31:05.

you work the same, and you earn enough to earn a living,

:31:06.:31:11.

to have a normal life, all people who take advantage of the

:31:12.:31:30.

benefits, but it is only a little part.

:31:31.:31:33.

It is a bigger market in the UK, it is

:31:34.:31:37.

easier to sell invention or publish a book.

:31:38.:31:39.

What you would happen if Britain did choose to leave?

:31:40.:31:42.

How would that affect Poles working in the UK?

:31:43.:31:44.

Most people would come back or go to other countries,

:31:45.:31:47.

Do you agree with David Cameron that there should be a four-year gap

:31:48.:33:09.

before you are allowed to get benefit?

:33:10.:33:24.

Do you think people may look elsewhere and travel to other

:33:25.:33:26.

Many of those people have already come here.

:33:27.:33:35.

Many of the children were born in England.

:33:36.:33:40.

To look for a job, place to live anywhere else.

:33:41.:33:50.

I think coming back to Poland, there is no

:33:51.:33:55.

The bus arriving from Krakow at lunchtime today.

:33:56.:34:11.

Joining me now is Guardian columnist Simon Jenkins,

:34:12.:34:13.

from the Times, Lord Danny Finkelstein and from our Paris

:34:14.:34:15.

Let's look at the French newspaper front cover about Britain and

:34:16.:34:31.

Europe. It says go if you want to, it says would Brexit be such a

:34:32.:34:36.

dramatic development, anyway? Christine, is that the mood

:34:37.:34:40.

everybody has their, that we are causing trouble, we are weary of it

:34:41.:34:44.

and it is time to make up our minds? I think there is a kind of fatigue

:34:45.:34:57.

about Britishness of it all. Ever since Britain has joined the EU we

:34:58.:35:03.

have been used to London asking for specific treatment, conditions and

:35:04.:35:10.

so on. The kind of trap which your Prime Minister seems to have put

:35:11.:35:16.

himself into, for probably valid domestic reasons, as far as British

:35:17.:35:21.

politics are concerned, it gets to be a little bit tiresome on the

:35:22.:35:25.

continent. Of course, all of our countries have their own problems

:35:26.:35:30.

will stop as indeed your Berlin correspondent stressed, and the

:35:31.:35:38.

discrepancy between the time spent on the wording, phrasing, what's

:35:39.:35:46.

David Cameron might or might not get from this long Brussels night and

:35:47.:35:52.

probably again tomorrow. And the real issue which we Europeans have

:35:53.:35:56.

two face and when I say we Europeans, I include my British

:35:57.:36:00.

friends stop I think there is something wrong there. We have this

:36:01.:36:04.

huge migrant crisis. We have problems with jobs, the environment.

:36:05.:36:11.

We have the war in Syria. You do not need to spell out all of the... I

:36:12.:36:20.

think we understand the point. It is irritating to be told we have spent

:36:21.:36:23.

a lot of time discussing Britain's problems as if we have not spent a

:36:24.:36:28.

lot of time discussing France's problems and as if we have not had

:36:29.:36:32.

referendums in France that require a response. Britain has concerns about

:36:33.:36:39.

the EU. People want a single market, not a politically developed a

:36:40.:36:43.

European Union, which is why we opted out of the euro, the Schengen

:36:44.:36:48.

agreement, and now out of closer union we will try to opt out of. It

:36:49.:36:53.

is not as if our special relationship with the EU is any

:36:54.:36:59.

different. It is irritating to be told it is a waste of time to deal

:37:00.:37:05.

with one of the world's biggest economies. It depends how you view

:37:06.:37:12.

Europe. If you see it as part of a political hole, we are a pain in the

:37:13.:37:17.

neck. We do not see Europe that way in this country. The relationship

:37:18.:37:20.

between Britain and the European countries has broken down, which is

:37:21.:37:24.

what this has been about otherwise he would not be in Brussels. We were

:37:25.:37:29.

promised a new job retreat, new relationship with Europe, as a

:37:30.:37:35.

trading partner, it is not delivered. It seems to me he has got

:37:36.:37:40.

to walk away. He cannot vote yes to this package. If he votes yes

:37:41.:37:45.

everything goes on as before if he votes no, it gets interesting. There

:37:46.:37:50.

has been argument in Britain about whether we wanted to join a

:37:51.:37:54.

superstate and since that argument we have the referendum act, we have

:37:55.:37:58.

opted out of the euro and Schengen and now we have negotiations that

:37:59.:38:03.

come on top of enlargement and other problems inside the EU, that what we

:38:04.:38:09.

feared would happen ten years ago, that Europe would develop into a

:38:10.:38:13.

single country and we would have to be part of it or leave that is not

:38:14.:38:17.

now the choice. So I do not agree with Simon. If you vote yes, nothing

:38:18.:38:26.

changes. I do not think it will make much difference if you vote yes or

:38:27.:38:29.

no, we would have an associate relationship. Christine, is there a

:38:30.:38:38.

feeling there that this at least might resolve it? Simon Jenkins said

:38:39.:38:43.

if we vote to stay in we will carry on with the dysfunctional

:38:44.:38:47.

relationship as we have the last 40 years. David Cameron has said if we

:38:48.:38:52.

can resolve this once and for all, all of Europe should be much

:38:53.:38:58.

happier. Yes, but it seems to many of us on the continent that when it

:38:59.:39:06.

is expressed that way, it means there has to be a British set of

:39:07.:39:12.

rules and the rest of us, and we just have to deal with that. That

:39:13.:39:20.

idea of a special partnership, which would do what, protect British

:39:21.:39:24.

interests and not other European interests? It is hard to take, it

:39:25.:39:30.

does not make much sense. If the British people want to get out of

:39:31.:39:35.

Europe, we will see what happens. I think it is quite unfair to say, but

:39:36.:39:41.

in any case, it would really improve things so much more by having that

:39:42.:39:46.

sort of special deals that we would of course be very specific about and

:39:47.:39:56.

not you. You formed a single currency so you have a different

:39:57.:39:59.

relationship because you formed a fiscal union which requires a

:40:00.:40:03.

political union. Printed not want a single currency and that was within

:40:04.:40:10.

the deal we did. Nobody asked you to be in the single currency, you opted

:40:11.:40:16.

out. And nobody asked you to let us opt out. We were able to opt out and

:40:17.:40:20.

we did. Simon you wrote an interesting piece today essentially

:40:21.:40:27.

arguing we should vote no because that would give a kick at the bottom

:40:28.:40:32.

to the relationship and it would be properly re-establish. Tonight, what

:40:33.:40:37.

is interesting, everybody is saying, we cannot have another referendum

:40:38.:40:41.

after this, this has to be the once and only choice. Your piece was

:40:42.:40:46.

predicated on another referendum. I was simply saying that if you are in

:40:47.:40:51.

effect say, we want to alter the relationship between Britain and the

:40:52.:40:55.

other countries in a particular fashion, nobody is coming out of

:40:56.:40:59.

Europe. This is city tour. If we vote no, there would have to be an

:41:00.:41:05.

almighty renegotiation. The relationship would be different, it

:41:06.:41:08.

would be some sort of associate membership. I'm sure. The only

:41:09.:41:13.

question is what with the nature of it be? No government can preclude

:41:14.:41:18.

that, a future government might say we ought to have another referendum,

:41:19.:41:24.

that is all I am saying. No is not known to Europe, it is no to the

:41:25.:41:29.

present relationship. That is the idea that any relationship with

:41:30.:41:34.

Europe would be better. I do not accept that. We have a lot of parts

:41:35.:41:39.

of relationship that we want. A single market allows people to trade

:41:40.:41:42.

and reduces regulation to business. You would get that in the

:41:43.:41:49.

renegotiation. Not necessarily. The only guarantee is now that you get

:41:50.:41:53.

none of it. We are out of time. Thank you.

:41:54.:41:59.

By this time tomorrow, will we know? That is all we have time for. Have a

:42:00.:42:04.

very good night.

:42:05.:42:06.

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