19/02/2016 Newsnight


19/02/2016

In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines with Kirsty Wark.


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Transcript


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As we come on air it's clear that the Prime Minister

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There is an EU deal, which David Cameron says gives

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the UK special status in the European Union.

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Now we will have a referendum, most likly on 23rd June.

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David Cameron's renegotiation in Brussels has taken far longer than

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anyone wanted, but a night we have a deal. Within the last hour, I have

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negotiated a deal to give the UK special status inside the European

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Union. I will fly back to London tonight and update the Cabinet at

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10am tomorrow. We'll be talking to politicians,

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players and hacks on the scene. With the starting gun primed

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for the referendum campaign, we are at a big rally for one

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of the groups that wants She did something that in our

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society is unspeakable. She kissed a black man.

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Is To Kill A Mockingbird a book for our times?

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We'll be talking to Lionel Shriver about the classic American novel.

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The President of the EU has confirmed there is unanimous

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support for an agreement between the EU and Britain.

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David Cameron will now come home and convene a Cabinet meeting

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tomorrow for the first time since the Falklands War in 1982.

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Then the shackles will be off and Cabinet ministers who back

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"out" in the referendum, now thought to include

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David Cameron's ally, Justice Secretary Michael Gove,

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The Prime Minister has just been speaking in Brussels.

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This deal has delivered on the commitments I made at the beginning

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of this renegotiation process. Britain will be permanently out of

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ever closer union, never part of a European superstate. There will be

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tough new restrictions on access to our welfare system for EU migrants.

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No more something for nothing. Britain will never join the euro,

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and we have secured vital protections for our economy and a

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full say over the rules of the free trade single market, while remaining

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outside the euro. I believe this is enough for me to recommend that the

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United Kingdom remain in the European Union, having the best of

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both worlds. We will be in the parts of Europe that work for us,

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influencing the decisions that affect us, in the driving seat of

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the world's biggest market, and with the ability to take action to keep

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our people safe. And we will be out of the parts of Europe that do not

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work for us. Out of the open borders, out of the bailouts, out of

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the euro, and out of those schemes in which Britain wants no part.

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Joining me is Chris Cook. David Cameron being upbeat, but what is

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the deal? Some things we knew about and some details on things we did

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not know about. One of the things is we are not going to be bound by the

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European Union normal rhetoric on ever closer union. That is what he

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means when he refers to special status for the United Kingdom. We

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knew they were try to get this deal whereby new arrivals in the UK would

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not get benefits in full for four years, only gradually. We did not

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know for how long that emergency brake on benefits for migrants would

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last. He wanted 13 years but he only got seven. But that was more than

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people in Brussels thought he would get. Third, child benefit being sent

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abroad. The original deal was this would be indexed down by the cost of

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living of the country where the child lives. There was a question

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about whether Eastern European countries would live with this, they

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would be major losers. He will get it but it will be introduced

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gradually, only taking full effect for everyone in 2020. Poland was

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most resistant to this and child benefit in Poland is something like

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?4 97 people are weak. Yes, but there are countries like Austria,

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who have Eastern European migrants with children abroad who might fancy

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saving some money. One other contentious thing was the eurozone

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block, the idea that we needed a guarantee that we could not be

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railroaded into staff if the eurozone voted together for their

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interests. They have something we can claim as a win and France can

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also claim is a win, the big supporters of us not having

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anything. We can cause problems for them if they try to railroad us.

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Thank you very much. David Grossman has been following the details. Here

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he is. Not much sleep but still much to do.

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I was here until five o'clock this morning working through this and we

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made some progress but still no deal. David Cameron arrived back at

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the summit trying to exude the air of someone with infinite energy and

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determination. Good morning. The EU Council president, Donald Tusk, may

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look friendly but really he is holding the leaders hostage. His

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view is I will not sit you down until you agree that we can agree.

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He will keep them here as long as he has to. They have nothing to do up

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there. They get bored. These are people who certainly think they are

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very powerful and he's keeping them hanging around. It is utterly

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deliberate. They cannot get good food, they will not have a good

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lunch. Indeed, what was supposed to be in English breakfast to formalise

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the agreement was delayed, pencilled in as an English lunch, whatever

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that is, before turning into a late afternoon unspecified English meal,

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before becoming an English dinner, possibly around 8pm. Dogs dinner,

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anyone? Perhaps it was low blood sugar but flashes of annoyance began

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to leak out. As time passes, tweeted one senior Czech Republic

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negotiator, I am or perplexed by the British approach of non-negotiation.

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Quite unorthodox, to say the least. Annoyance, too, that precious time

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has been spent discussing Britain. They did Cameron has been warned not

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to strike a triumphalist note. -- David Cameron.

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My concern is can we, outside the UK, sell this deal as a fair deal

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for everybody. If Cameron goes back home saying that he has a big deal

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and it is excellent for the UK, I fear that many people on the

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continent might ask themselves, is it a good deal for me? One by one,

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the leaders started leaving, temporarily, back to their hotels

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for a rest and presumably something to eat. Financial are core, a stop

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at a Brussels chip shop. The question for David Cameron, how will

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the negotiations taste at home. -- for Angela Merkel, a stop at a chip

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shop. For many, it serves to remind us of our subordinate status in the

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EU. The process has flagged up issues without solution. A lot of

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people in Britain, even after 40 years of membership, do not know

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that EU law automatically strikes down British law. Again, this

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sovereignty deal flags up the problem without solving it. The net

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effect is to remind everyone of what a subordinate province we are within

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this new entity. At 8:40pm, the leaders at last gathered for that

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long delayed meal. Officials handed out a final draft. Getting agreement

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to night, though, is only the start of the process. Whilst David

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Cameron's attention turns towards the UK referendum, there is work to

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do in other nations, two, where European and national parliaments

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will now have their say. I don't think a cast-iron guarantee can be

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given that what is agreed today is what will come out at the end of the

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day. The parliament will play a bigger role, other factors will play

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a role. In the end, it is likely a deal will pass because people are

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committed to keeping the UK in Europe. As long as there are no

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direct conflicts with what the treaty says and key member states

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want, it will pass, but there is potentially a rocky

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want, it will pass, but there is About an hour after they sat down,

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Donald Tusk announced that the deal was agreed, negotiations were over.

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I am joined by David from Brussels. What is happening. If I am out of

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breath it is because I have run from the Prime Minister's press

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conference which is going on as we speak. A little over half an hour

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ago David Cameron bounded into the press conference. The British press

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were today to ask questions. He was clearly very relieved. He has a

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package, not the package he started looking for. If I look at my notes,

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one word comes up time and again, "Risk". Risk to our security. He

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talks about this relationship to extradite criminals from the UK. And

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risk over the economy. He was asked about the fact that his cabinet is

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now effectively split. Michael Gove, for example, will be campaigning on

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the other side of the argument from him. He talked about that. He said,

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I have known Michael for 30 years and he is a friend, but over that

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time he has believed Britain is better off outside Europe. He will

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now be campaigning for that. He has not given us an indication that June

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23 will be the referendum date but it now seems a racing certainty that

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if you want to watch the referendum you might have to cancel holiday

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plans on that date. We heard him in the press conference saying how much

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better this was for Britain and how it would iron out the problems. Any

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fond words for the European Union at all? At one point he said, look, I

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do not love Brussels at all, I love Britain, but I think Britain's best

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way forward in future is to have this new negotiated relationship

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with the EU, with a specific clause that will be in a new treaty

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whenever it is made, that says that Britain is explicitly outside the

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ambition of ever closer union. In that sense, he tried to set himself

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out as the outsider from Brussels, despite the fact that he has been

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immersed in these discussions over the last two days and before that

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with numerous trips. He tried to present himself as the outsider from

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Europe, who had to come inside to get the deal he thinks is right for

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the British people. To discuss, I'm joined now

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by the Labour MP Chuka Umunna, who is supporting Britain Stronger

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In Europe, And buy one of the three founding

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members of grassroots out. What do you make of the deal?

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Notwithstanding the renegotiation, I would have been arguing for us to

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stay in any event. I think the things that have been secured do

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matter. I don't know about Tom but I was not alive in 1975 when people

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last had the vote on this. Many of the older generation that I speak

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to, they say they thought they were joining an economic club, not a

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political union. He has secured a clear commitment that we will have

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an opt out from this notion of ever closer union. I don't think most of

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our European counterparts want this United States of Europe. So that was

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an easy daughter push. You say regardless you would be heading a

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campaign to stay in. Do you think anything here will make it easier to

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sell on the doorstep? With the older generation I think the notion of

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ever closer union is important. Secondly, let's be clear, this is

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not a referendum about whether we join the euro, but about whether we

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stay in the European Union altogether. We have a legal

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commitment that the euro is the only currency in Europe. There are a

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number of currencies. More competition is essential, if we are

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to compete with the likes of China. Things that have been secured around

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the operation of the benefit system, people do not want a free for all

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but they want the thing to operate fairly. The idea that you pay in

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first before you take anything is something that appeals. That will

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appeal to people, that the benefit system has been reformed. I was not

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around in 1975. Not around in 1985! One of the things I hear time and

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again is that what people voted for in the 1970s was free trade and a

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common market agreement. This renegotiation will not get us back

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to that. With the possibility we now know, confirmed by the Prime

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Minister that Michael Gove will be campaigning. You presumably expected

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that? I did not. I have had conversations with Michael and lots

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of colleagues. We have reached decisions at different times. I have

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been on this side of the Ottoman for a long time. I gave the

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renegotiation a chance but this does not deal with uncontrolled

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immigration from Europe, to make sure we have a system that is fair

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and controlled. It does not stop us sending ?350 million a week to

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Brussels. And it will not allow us to trade globally. Let's be honest,

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we would still be a member of Nato, still a member of the UN, still

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involved in the GE 20, the G7, the Commonwealth, would still have a

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relationship with the United States. Talking about Michael Gove,

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interesting you did not expect that. What about Boris Johnson? I cannot

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speak for individual colleagues. I do not know when Michael and Boris

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reached their conclusions. I have been on this side of the argument

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for a long time. It will come as no surprise to anyone that Michael Gove

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is arguing for us to leave. What I do not like about this narrative

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from those who argue for us to leave is the notion that somehow whenever

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Britain wants to get anything done, and you hear hints of it here, we

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get trampled by European partners, when nothing could be further from

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the truth. People have to stop talking down our country in this

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way. British prime ministers, of labour and Tory persuasion, have

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managed to marshal a majority on the European Council behind the UK

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position many times. Usually we are on the majority side nine out of ten

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times. The idea that we get trampled is nonsense. Also the idea that we

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do not control our own affairs. I sat through the last Parliament

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watching a Tory government introducing troubling tuition fees,

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bedroom tax, these kind of things. This is something the EU have no

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control over. There were 121 acts of Parliament in the last Parliament

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and just four dealt with EU legislation.

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In terms of how you will be campaigning, the latest vote for the

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Times on the 3rd of February, after the draft agreement, but the outcome

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pain at 45, the in campaign at 39 and a lot of undecided. There is not

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a lot here to change people's minds, is there? The argument to stay in

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the European Union goes far broader. People answering those polls know

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that, and yet 45 for out. Polls go up and down. This will be close. It

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will be a good moment for our democracy, where we will have a

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lively debate. I say bring it on. I agree with the last bit. On

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doorsteps in Kettering last weekend, we knocked on doors and there was an

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impassioned group of people out there who want to leave the European

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Union. I think the debate is welcome to put the question to bed. The

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difference is that I think we could be so much better off outside. I

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absolutely believe in Britain. Then why keep talking down Britain. I am

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not. Save it for the doorsteps. This was supposed to be the big

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night when the referendum campaign was launched, the Prime Minister

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triumphantly home from Brussels addressing TV crews on the steps

:17:16.:17:17.

of Downing Street, and the Cabinet David Cameron is still

:17:18.:17:20.

across the Channel but the out campaigners who'd booked a huge

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venue round the corner in anticipation of the starting gun

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are agitating anyway. Gabriel Gatehouse joins us

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from Westminster. What happened?

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There were certainly raised eyebrows, to put it mildly, in the

:17:44.:17:47.

audience, with almost nobody expecting George Galloway to appear.

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Some people walked out, not a huge number. There were some angry

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people. I think quite a few of them just wanted their dinner, because

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the event was over running. It will be interesting what the campaign to

:18:01.:18:04.

stay in mix of that. This was supposed to be the unofficial

:18:05.:18:09.

starting gun for the leaving campaign. When the rally ended,

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there still wasn't officially a deal. But this Grassroots Out group

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isn't the only group hoping to lead Britain out of the EU. There is a

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lot at stake, not least official designation by the electoral

:18:26.:18:30.

commission and the funding that comes with that. This was an attempt

:18:31.:18:37.

to unify that movement, or at least to wrest control of it, by Nigel

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Farage and David Davies among them, but they were keen to emphasise

:18:42.:18:47.

their cross party credentials. Labour MP Kate Hoey was on the

:18:48.:18:52.

speakers list and George Galloway. Most of all, they wanted to bring

:18:53.:18:56.

across that they are a grassroots movement, an organic movement and

:18:57.:18:59.

one with a strong antiestablishment favour. -- flavour.

:19:00.:19:02.

In the shadow of Westminster Abbey, a very polite sort of insurgency.

:19:03.:19:05.

They queued up in an orderly fashion and hour and a half before kick-off.

:19:06.:19:16.

Inside, what any European would recognise as a fine example

:19:17.:19:18.

of that famous British sense of humour.

:19:19.:19:20.

Grassroots Out say they intend to win this referendum door by door,

:19:21.:19:33.

Many of these people have their minds made up already,

:19:34.:19:38.

This is being pitched as a movement of ordinary people

:19:39.:19:42.

battling an out of touch elite, not just in Brussels

:19:43.:19:45.

The establishment will be watching this closely.

:19:46.:19:51.

There is a faint whiff of the Winston versus Big Brother

:19:52.:19:54.

What they are trying to do is to harness a mistrust of the EU

:19:55.:20:00.

with a more general alienation from Westminster

:20:01.:20:03.

Good evening, ladies and gentlemen...

:20:04.:20:08.

The problem for Grassroots Out is it isn't really a grassroots movement,

:20:09.:20:11.

It's got only about 5000 followers on Twitter

:20:12.:20:17.

and most of tonight's speakers were familiar faces

:20:18.:20:20.

from inside what they themselves dismiss as the Westminster bubble.

:20:21.:20:25.

Are we going to allow ourselves to be put,

:20:26.:20:28.

by virtue of these hopeless negotiations, into a permanent

:20:29.:20:33.

second-tier of a two-tier Europe, dominated by other

:20:34.:20:38.

There was also a mystery guest, a man whose name was kept so secret

:20:39.:20:48.

he drew genuine gasps of astonishment from some

:20:49.:20:51.

And I want you to give a very big, warm welcome to George

:20:52.:20:57.

Nigel and I agree on hardly anything at all.

:20:58.:21:06.

But we do agree on at least one thing.

:21:07.:21:11.

And it happens to be the most important

:21:12.:21:14.

thing, not only now but in the lifetime of everyone

:21:15.:21:20.

in this hall and everyone in this country.

:21:21.:21:25.

It is the demand that Britain should be an

:21:26.:21:28.

independent, sovereign and democratic country,

:21:29.:21:32.

and that means leaving the European Union.

:21:33.:21:38.

There is presumably little that David Cameron

:21:39.:21:43.

to change their minds, but it is the undecided voters,

:21:44.:21:46.

perhaps as much as one third of the electorate,

:21:47.:21:48.

that they need to reach if they are to

:21:49.:21:52.

turn a Ukip style insurgency into a referendum winning movement.

:21:53.:22:01.

Gabriel Gatehouse. Now straight to Brussels, where we can hear from

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Angela Merkel. We believe that we have given now a package to David

:22:10.:22:16.

Cameron that will enable him to elicit support in Britain for

:22:17.:22:21.

Britain remaining a member of the European Union. This was his goal.

:22:22.:22:27.

There was no doubt about it. It is true that a spirit of compromise was

:22:28.:22:35.

necessary on our part, but the fact that we wanted Britain to remain in

:22:36.:22:39.

the European Union justify those compromises, and I don't think it

:22:40.:22:44.

was any of us felt that this was particularly easy, but... Angela

:22:45.:22:51.

Merkel talking about compromise, so let's talk about that in Brussels

:22:52.:22:56.

with Alex Barker of the Financial Times and Valentina Pop of the Wall

:22:57.:23:00.

Street Journal. David Cameron was selling this is a big win, but was

:23:01.:23:07.

it? It depends what you judge that on. In terms of the Brussels debate,

:23:08.:23:12.

the Brussels fight, the diplomacy over the last seven months, he came

:23:13.:23:16.

out tonight probably better than expected. He gave a concession on

:23:17.:23:21.

child benefit but, on the main areas he was looking for, ever closer

:23:22.:23:27.

union, promises of treaty change and an emergency break lasting for a

:23:28.:23:30.

seven year period, he pretty much came out well. He didn't give away

:23:31.:23:37.

much. The problem is that he isn't judged on what he can get in

:23:38.:23:41.

Brussels but what he asked for in the first place, and there, well, he

:23:42.:23:49.

didn't necessarily find it very well. He thought there would be

:23:50.:23:53.

treaty change, that he could pitch his demands onto that, that the

:23:54.:23:57.

Eurozone would be making their own effort to integrate, and that didn't

:23:58.:24:03.

really happen. So he was pushing his own agenda unilaterally. He was

:24:04.:24:08.

making all the demands, and that is a more difficult negotiation.

:24:09.:24:13.

Valentina Pop, Angela Merkel saying there was compromise, and Poland was

:24:14.:24:17.

one country which was sticking to its guns for a while. I wonder what

:24:18.:24:21.

the atmosphere is like now among the other countries and what they have

:24:22.:24:25.

had to concede. What Angela Merkel also said was that the deal

:24:26.:24:31.

enshrines the flexibility of having different ideas about Europe and

:24:32.:24:39.

going ahead at different speeds, this principle ultimately of cherry

:24:40.:24:42.

picking what we like about Europe and what we don't. Obviously, it

:24:43.:24:49.

will trigger more fights ahead. Already, Angela Merkel was saying

:24:50.:24:54.

she wants to implement the child benefits indexation that Britain is

:24:55.:24:58.

implementing, a measure that surely central and eastern Europeans will

:24:59.:25:03.

not like. This comes on top of a lot of strife and disarray over how to

:25:04.:25:10.

deal with the block's migration problem. Then what happens is the

:25:11.:25:15.

other leaders go back to their countries and there is agitation for

:25:16.:25:19.

exactly what you say. If Britain can get a la carte, the other countries

:25:20.:25:25.

have to go a la carte as well. Exactly, and he has a lot of fans

:25:26.:25:33.

among central and Eastern European countries on some issues, obviously

:25:34.:25:37.

not on the welfare restrictions, but precisely on this idea that the

:25:38.:25:42.

European Union is not a unified concept, where all of the countries

:25:43.:25:45.

are heading to, but that you can have all sorts of exceptions and opt

:25:46.:25:54.

outs ultimately. Alex, as Chuka Umunna was saying, and it was clear

:25:55.:25:59.

neither camp was going to be swayed, I wonder now, with so many

:26:00.:26:04.

undecideds, whether this deal will make a big difference, when we heard

:26:05.:26:10.

the most recent polls putting the out campaign at 55% already. What is

:26:11.:26:15.

there to say over the relaxed four months? -- over the next four

:26:16.:26:21.

months. This is a historic moment for stop people have been fighting

:26:22.:26:26.

for a referendum for 20 odd years. They were often at the margins in

:26:27.:26:31.

the first place. This has a special momentum of its own, and that is

:26:32.:26:34.

what David Cameron will want to be riding over the next few days. This

:26:35.:26:40.

will be one of the most important, biggest, single issue votes held

:26:41.:26:43.

anywhere in the world in this generation. It is hugely

:26:44.:26:48.

consequential. That will dominate the debate over the coming days. I

:26:49.:26:53.

doubt the detail of the actual package will really be picked over

:26:54.:26:56.

much as the big political drama plays out. Any idea on Boris Johnson

:26:57.:27:05.

where will he be, in or out? I think his policy at the moment is to veer

:27:06.:27:09.

everywhere possible. It is quite hard to tell. It will certainly have

:27:10.:27:16.

changed his calculations to a degree to see Michael Gove on the Brexit

:27:17.:27:25.

side. Let's see. Valentina Pop, you work for the Wall Street Journal,

:27:26.:27:29.

and we heard John Kerry earlier making an impassioned plea for

:27:30.:27:33.

Britain to stay in Europe. Do you think we will hear more American

:27:34.:27:38.

interventions? I couldn't speak for the US government, but surely we

:27:39.:27:43.

will hear a lot of economic impact of what Brexit could mean for

:27:44.:27:46.

Britain and for the transatlantic relationship. Surely, more messages

:27:47.:27:51.

to come from various corners. Thank you.

:27:52.:27:59.

Harper Lee has died at the age of 89. She wrote the Pulitzer

:28:00.:28:07.

prize-winning book in 1960 and after went aground in her hometown.

:28:08.:28:12.

There was a sudden flurry of interest in Ms Lee last year

:28:13.:28:15.

when her lawyer chanced upon the manuscript of a sequel

:28:16.:28:17.

in Harper Lee's papers and Go Set a Watchman was quickly published.

:28:18.:28:20.

It shocked readers with its portrayal of Atticus later

:28:21.:28:22.

But To Kill A Mockingbird will be remembered when Watchman

:28:23.:28:26.

Ladies and gentlemen, Gregory Peck. The world never seems as fresh and

:28:27.:28:39.

wonderful as comforting and terrifying, as good and evil, as it

:28:40.:28:44.

does when seen through the eyes of a child. For a writer to capture that

:28:45.:28:49.

feeling is remarkable. Perhaps that is why one book in the last few

:28:50.:28:56.

years has been so warmly embraced by tens of millions of people. To kill

:28:57.:28:58.

a Mockingbird. There is a lot of talk about the

:28:59.:29:17.

elusive, great American novel, but perhaps it has already been written.

:29:18.:29:21.

The last person to come as close as anyone to writing it was the equally

:29:22.:29:30.

elusive Harper Lee. To Kill A Mockingbird appeared when America

:29:31.:29:35.

was still divided by law over race. Set in the deep south, it was about

:29:36.:29:40.

a lawyer and a father defending an African American accused of raping a

:29:41.:29:46.

white woman. They were not wrong, were they? Now he has been charged,

:29:47.:29:50.

I am going to defend him. Excuse me, Mr York. What kind of man are you?

:29:51.:30:20.

Old-fashioned manners, poverty and racism. This was the south that

:30:21.:30:29.

Harper Lee lived in, as her neighbours recalled. A lot of us see

:30:30.:30:36.

a lot similarities between what she wrote about in things that did

:30:37.:30:39.

happen in this town, and other people would say the same thing.

:30:40.:30:44.

They would say, this could have been about our town. We had a person like

:30:45.:30:47.

Boo Radley. We had people like that. about our town. We had a person like

:30:48.:30:57.

book special. We find the defendant guilty as charged.

:30:58.:31:08.

Harper Lee, Monroeville, Al Obama. With tantalisingly few public

:31:09.:31:18.

appearances, Lee became famous for her invisibility but she caused a

:31:19.:31:21.

literary sensation last year when an earlier novel, Go Set A Watchman,

:31:22.:31:28.

was dusted off and published 56 years after Mockingbird. Our courts,

:31:29.:31:38.

only man could have created them equal. The self-effacing Harper Lee

:31:39.:31:44.

seems heroic and enviably single-minded. For her insistence on

:31:45.:31:46.

the primacy of her much loved words. The author

:31:47.:31:57.

Lionel Shriver joins me now. What age were you? Can you remember

:31:58.:32:10.

where you were when you read Mockingbird? In the bedroom,

:32:11.:32:14.

definitely. I was about 14, a good age to read that book. There has

:32:15.:32:22.

been in total 30 million copies read and sold. What was the appeal of it,

:32:23.:32:29.

do you think? I don't know the statistics, but I would hazard that

:32:30.:32:32.

an awful lot of those 30 million worldwide. I don't want to criticise

:32:33.:32:42.

her when she has just died, but I would call it a morally simplistic

:32:43.:32:48.

book, but it is certainly morally simple. It is appealing to whites

:32:49.:32:53.

because they get to play both sides, they are the bad people and the

:32:54.:32:58.

inroads. It is obvious with whom you are supposed to identify. -- the bad

:32:59.:33:04.

people and the heroes. It is the brave lawyer sticking up for the

:33:05.:33:08.

innocent black so-called rapist. And he fights of the lynch mob and his

:33:09.:33:16.

children make them feel ashamed. It is great stuff, but it is miles away

:33:17.:33:23.

from the kind of cultural complexity... Desegregation years. I

:33:24.:33:30.

wonder if it was helped on by Gregory Peck in the film, which came

:33:31.:33:32.

just two years after the book. I think that had a huge effect on

:33:33.:33:47.

the popularity of the book. You had female writers of a similar age

:33:48.:33:51.

writing who did not have anything like the heft in the public

:33:52.:33:54.

imagination has this reclusive author. In some ways, they were more

:33:55.:34:01.

challenging authors, and their universe was not so simple. They ask

:34:02.:34:09.

you to enter into a much stranger universe than the one you get with

:34:10.:34:16.

Harper Lee. I believe those writers are under red. Let's hit them next.

:34:17.:34:26.

Do you have a theory as to why she was so reclusive? It's pretty

:34:27.:34:31.

obvious that success was terrifying. I am sceptical that she would have

:34:32.:34:36.

occupied, as an author, especially as a character, the kind of position

:34:37.:34:44.

she seemed to occupy if she had not become a recluse and had continued

:34:45.:34:48.

to produce. There is something warped about the way that we are so

:34:49.:34:56.

fascinated and in some ways elevate artists who stop and who have all

:34:57.:35:03.

the opportunity and turned their back on it. It is dramatic,

:35:04.:35:09.

intriguing, but is it admirable? And then, Lo and behold, in her 80s,

:35:10.:35:16.

another book. Well, it is a matter of some controversy whether it

:35:17.:35:21.

really is another book. Obviously a lot of the press thought it was a

:35:22.:35:24.

first draft of To Kill A Mockingbird. And some people think

:35:25.:35:31.

it shouldn't have been published. I don't imagine a great harm was done

:35:32.:35:37.

to her reputation. Certainly, the advertisement of go set watchmen

:35:38.:35:40.

meant there were hugely copies of the original book bought. -- go set

:35:41.:35:49.

a Watchman. But I wonder, looking at how many African-Americans would

:35:50.:35:52.

have read the book, and actually now when you look at what is happening

:35:53.:35:56.

in some areas, we do not have Jim Crow but there is some pretty brutal

:35:57.:36:02.

behaviour going on. That is the thing, this book does not speak to

:36:03.:36:07.

the present moment in my mind. We don't have the same kind of racism

:36:08.:36:13.

that we used to. It is more insidious. People are, mercifully,

:36:14.:36:20.

less comfortable with being covertly bigoted. There are certain kinds of

:36:21.:36:27.

language we do not hear any more and that is all good. We are dealing

:36:28.:36:32.

much more in the United States with structural racism, the way things

:36:33.:36:37.

work, work, not what people say. That is what the black lives matter

:36:38.:36:41.

thing is about. If you are going to get involved in America's

:36:42.:36:45.

institutional racism, it has more to do with the drug laws, and the fact

:36:46.:36:53.

that they are put together in such a way that blacks are

:36:54.:36:56.

disproportionately put away. Thank you.

:36:57.:36:59.

Tomorrow morning's front pages, as you would imagine:

:37:00.:37:29.

Now for arts and night, presented by Andrew Graham

:37:30.:37:30.

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