22/02/2016 Newsnight


22/02/2016

In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines with Evan Davis.


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Transcript


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I think it's absolutely vital that earn should turn out in this

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referendum and vote yes, so that the question is over once and for all,

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we are really in Europe and ready to go ahead.

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That didn't quite work. This is a vital decision for the future of our

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country and I believe we should also be clear that it is a final

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decision. The campaign has barely started, yet

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the debate in the Conservative Party We'll hear from both

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sides of the divide. I've been speaking

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to Iain Duncan Smith. And we'll hear from veteran

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inner, Ken Clarke. Michael Cockerell will take

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us through the lessons I made a number of films about the

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referendum then, which have many pre-echos of what's happening today,

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as well as a number of startling differences.

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And the people of Peterborough have their say.

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We've always been famous for being an independent country. Now we're so

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much into Europe, we don't seem to have a mind of our own any more.

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Novice marathon runners are always warned not to start the race at too

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brisk a pace if they want to make it to the end.

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Westminster has not taken that advice with the respect

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It's barely commenced, and it's already off

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In the Commons, David Cameron got surprisingly close to mocking

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the suggestion of Boris Johnson that there could be

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a new negotiation, if we vote to leave.

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Or is it getting closer to civil war?

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Our political editor, David Grossman, has been

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Politics sometimes feels like a nursery dispute. It's about to get

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very messy. Boris Johnson and David Cameron have been the best of

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frenemies since they were at school. I love Boris. That's certainly not a

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phrase the Prime Minister was using today. There's a sense of betrayal

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in Downing Street after the Mayor of London said he would campaign for

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Britain to leave the EU. THE SPEAKER: Statement, the Prime

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Minister. In the Commons, the Prime Minister had his chance to respond.

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I'm not standing for re-election. I have no other agenda than what is

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best for our country. I'm standing here telling you what I think.

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Interpreted by all as a swipe at Boris Johnson's supposed Prime

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Ministerial ambition. The mayor's view that we can get better terms

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with the EU by leaving was dismissed by Mr Cameron as fanciful. Sadly, Mr

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Speaker, I have known a number of couples who've begun divorce

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proceedings, but I do not know of any who've begun divorce proceedings

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in order to renew their marriage vows. The jeering there was on the

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Labour side, but it continued amongst some on the Conservative

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side when the mayor at last got to his feet to ask a question. Tuck

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your shirt in Boris. ... The Prime Minister, to explain to the House

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and to the country in exactly what way this deal returns sovereignty

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over any field of law making to these Houses of Parliament? This

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deal brings back some welfare powers, it brings back some

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immigration powers, it brings some bail out powers, but more than that,

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because it carves us forever out of ever closer union, it means that the

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ratchet of the European Court taking power away... The mayor appears to

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reply "rubbish". It is, of course, absurd to reduce this debate into a

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battle between two old school mates. That battle is emblem attic of a

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schism at the heart of the Parliamentary Conservative Party.

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The danger is the more that's said over the next four months, the

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harder it will be for the party to come back together again. Liam Fox

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is a former Defence Secretary, campaigning to leave the EU. It's

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unwise to make attacks, however amusic they are, on members of your

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own side. I think the Prime Minister's to Boris Johnson wasn't

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the wisest thing. How easy it will be to come back together after the

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referendum will be largely dependent on how well we treat one another in

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the run up to the referendum. You know, if you smash humpty to pieces,

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it will be hard to put him together again. The one time the

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Conservatives seemed truly united today was when they enjoyed this

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heckle of Jeremy Corbyn. I was in Brussels meeting with heads of

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government and leaders of European socialist parties, one of whom said

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to me... "Who are you? The comment, watch as Andy Burnham fails to keep

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a straight face. Perhaps the Conservatives should contain their

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amusement, given the state of their party on Europe. A lot of people,

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including myself, would have guessed a couple of months ago that the

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floor was 50 Conservative MPs supporting leave. As it is, it looks

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like they're on track to hit 100, which is a huge amount more. It's

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interesting to see how that divides within different roles in the party.

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If you're a Cabinet minister, your majority more likely to remain. If

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you're a junior minister the leave percentage creeps up. The

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backbenchers, perhaps a majority will support the leave campaign.

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There are five ministers in the Cabinet now opposing the Prime

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Minister. It is another MP who seems to have sparked Mr Cameron's anger.

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Iain Duncan Smith is one of the gang of six -

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the Cabinet ministers opposing the Prime Minister.

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He made a comment over the weekend about how staying in would make us

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more vulnerable to a Paris-style attack.

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Well, I spoke to him earlier this evening in his office

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I began by asking him where he stands on the issue

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After another negotiation, the suggestion associated with Boris

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Johnson. There is no plan for a second referendum. Governments can

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change things if they wish, but to be honest, I would say to anyone

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watching this, the choice is simply - are we going to leave or stay in

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on that date. Then we're bound by that. Just how does it feel, I mean

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as a loyal Cabinet minister, who's been in the Cabinet since 2010, how

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does it feel to suddenly find yourself completely at odds with the

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leader of your party and the Prime Minister? It's not easy. It's never

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going to be easy when you take a decision to not to back your

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Government. It's particularly difficult if you're in Cabinet,

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where collective responsibility is ultimately the thing. This is

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unusual. Then it's unusual times. You're responsible for benefits.

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Yeah. Benefits have played a big part in the re-negotiation. You've

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been pretty clear, you don't think what the Prime Minister negotiate

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issed going to make a big difference, correct? It depends

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whether you believe that actually this is the main reason why people

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are coming here. My general view is there is a limited effect. There's

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always been a limited effect. Some migrants come here for the benefits,

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I'm sure. But the bigger effect is the fact that anyone can come here,

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who is a member of the European Union, and then look for a job. The

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majority come looking for work and it's the problems of the scale of

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Tha'it displaces -- of that, which displaces communities. This is not

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against migration, it's against the scale of migration and limiting it.

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Controlled migration is the issue, which we can't do under the European

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Union. You were disappointed with what the Prime Minister achieved?

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Look, I don't think that the agreement as it stands actually

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reverses or changes anything dramatically. That's not to be

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churlish about there were some successes. It is a success, to a

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degree, to get any change from the European Union. Let's not get this,

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it's being sold as a great moment of change, I don't think I believe

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that. My main concern is - whatever is on the table now may not yet be

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what we finally use, because of course, we'll only get this after we

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say we're staying in. The problem there is that we don't know that the

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European Parliament won't modify it, no longer having a threat of Britain

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leaving. We don't know what the commission will do or the council.

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There are big issues and question marks but notwithstanding that, the

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big issue is migration generally. Can I ask if you stand by remarks

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over the weekend, in which you brought up the subject of

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Paris-style attacks. I suppose I'm interested in what changes, if we

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leave the EU, and why we would be safer from a Paris-style attack? You

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stand by what you said? I am deeply concerned about potential threats to

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this country. I think of all the capital cities of Europe, I think

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London is probably the most significant target, other than

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Washington. It's literally on that scale. I stand by my remarks. The

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reason I stand by them is simple in answer to your question, we don't

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know in the next two years or so, those who have actually been brought

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in as migrants under this present chaotic system, we have to say it's

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utterly chaotic, where half the checks aren't being properly done,

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we don't know they won't be soon with passports or leave to remain,

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fast tracked to some countries like Germany. We heard some countries

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actually sold passports, my point is, in this chaos, it is feasible, I

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believe, for some people to have basically become eligible within the

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rules of the European Union and thus be able to come here even through

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the European rules to our borders. That is just a fact. So, that simply

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means to me that there is still therefore a threat and that door is

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not closed. I simply say having our on control of the borders, doesn't

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mean to say we'd stop everybody, but we could do more of the checks. So

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I'm interested, this is really important, because it's central to

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the argument. What will we be able to do when a German passport holder

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comes to the border that we can't do now? We would be able to create, as

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we had in the past, a system whereby if we felt that somebody, we felt

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suspicious about an individual and we wanted therefore not to allow

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them in, that is our right to say no to them at that point. We may be

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able to demand further background, background checks done, we may be

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able to intear gait... We're not going to require visas, are we? My

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point is, anybodying control allows us to make that check. What are we

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stopped from doing now that you'd like us to do? If we feel somebody

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is not what we consider to be a reasonable individual we can refuse

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entry, we can't do that at the moment. How would we gain

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information about them other than what we would have now? There are

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lots of ways to get information. This is part of the exchange of

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information that we have, with bi-lateral arrangements, like with

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the United States. We know lots of people, we saw at the Paris attacks

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were about, people not checked. If you talk of a Paris attack, people

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picture bombers in Brussels coming through by car, driving straight to

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Paris because it's a borderless zone. We do explosives checks when

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you come on the tunnel. Two people check the cars at Dover when they

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come through. It's completely different. We talked about the

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intelligence systems between France and Belgium, but they weren't enough

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to stop the attack. You were up against a lot of senior security,

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let's call them the establishment, who have taken a very different

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line. The head of Europol takes a very different line. We've had

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comments from a former MI5 director, who takes a very different line. I

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suppose this is an impertinent question, but who should the public

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believe - should they believe you or should they believe... They don't

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have to believe anybody, they just have to make their own judgment on

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this. Do they think, what I'm saying, if we condition troll our

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borders, on balance we will be more secure. I think it's impossible to

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argue we won't be. It is bound to be that we would have an added element

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of security. What they're arguing on a wider case, I'm saying now, if we

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want a bit more security, controlling our own borders and most

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people watching would agree with me, I think, means we would have a

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greater likelihood of being more secure. I leave it at that. Iain

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Duncan Smith, thank you very much. That's one side of the Conservative

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schism, if you like. Ken Clarke is arguably the best

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known Tory europhile. He has been arguing the merits

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of Britain's membership of the EU He joins us from our Westminster

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studio. Good evening to you. Just on the

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narrow point that Iain Duncan Smith was raising there, about security

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and control people coming in, you're a former Minister of Justice, on

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that narrow point, certainly you're not going to be worse off if you

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have better control over who comes into the country. I don't think he

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could explain why on earth he said there would be more danger. We're

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targeted by jihadists, it's a serious problem, because we're one

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of the alliance fighting Isis in the Middle East. We've had terrorist

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attacks here, which have been carried out by British people born

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here. But obviously, this has to be tackled internationally. Within the

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EU we're made stronger. The intelligence services believe, that

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the chief constables believe that. We need the sharing of information.

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We need the Europol set up and that is how we protect ourselves. The

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idea that we cease to strive to maintain a system that makes sure

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everybody cooperates in dealing with terrorists and on our own, we can

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protect ourselves better, we're more at risk by being involved with other

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people who might tell us if they come from Germany that they have

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information that the person coming from Germany is a jihadist, I just

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don't understand that. The idea that we're going to be introducing a

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range of border checks, immigration checks, on everybody flying here

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from Germany and that makes us safer than the present arrangements, which

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are very much supported by the people who have the job of

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protecting us day by day is, I think, a slightly fringe argument. I

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don't think you'll find many Euro-sceptics pursue that.

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Do you think, as I listen to you arguing with Iain Duncan Smith on a

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very basic factual point, do you think your party can hold it

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together, basically, for the next four months? I hope we do better

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than when we had the Maastricht rebellion. We were divided then, the

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Conservative Party. It was the old Imperial right who were against our

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joining in the first place. Iain was the Chief Whip of the Maastricht

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rebels and the tensions inside the party that were caused by the

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Maastricht rebellion, I'm afraid, damaged the political integrity of

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the Major Government. The fact is, since that time, the party's

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operated well. It's a very successful Government. Iain has been

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a very successful Minister inside the Government. Iain and I, and the

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other Eurosceptics of capable of conducting this argument in

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reasonable and sensible terms. I'm not remotely surprised that Iain has

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insisted on being able to argue against this. I don't think anything

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David Cameron could have negotiated would have stopped Iain Duncan Smith

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being one of the most consistent, hardline Euro-sceptics. What did you

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make of the taunting of Boris by the Prime Minister in the Commons today?

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It did seem like that was coming dangerously close to beyond the

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civil debate that he himself had suggested. He did it very lightly.

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Everyone is looking for conflict - and there is a lot of conflict, I'm

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not denying the party is divided on Europe, it has been throughout my

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entire political career. The fact is, Boris had made a performance in

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the first place, of which side he might be on. He has somehow hedged

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his bets by saying, he might still be next time on the side of staying

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in, it's an entirely individual position, which I suppose is rather

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typical of Boris. I don't think what the Prime Minister said was said

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with malice. I think Boris could have slayed himself. He doesn't have

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any strong views or convictions and he's obviously opened suspicion that

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he's worked out that the right-wing activists in our party are more

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likely to vote no, so he's come down on his own in order to get more

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publicity at the weekend. In fact, I have tried to do that fairly lightly

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myself. I think the Prime Minister was quite kind today and you are

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bound to have in four months some fairly vigorous debate and Boris put

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himself in a peculiar position using an argument that nobody else uses.

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Let me take his argument seriously if we could? People have said that

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you have another negotiation after this one. But it is true, is it not,

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that after this referendum, if we voted to leave, a negotiation would

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then ensue? In fact, we would negotiate ourselves back in to some

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degree to quite a bit of what the EU package is, right? No, the Treaty is

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clear. You can leave if you want. Actually, what happens if you vote

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no, and you are leaving, you become an ex-member. No, but the Treaty...

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You start a negotiation with the other 27, the European Commission

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negotiates on behalf of the 27 remaining member states and what

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they are negotiating is the basis of you leaving and that involves, given

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you are not going to have the existing relationships with Europe,

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what trade access do you want, what will they give you, what are the

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terms going to be, what are you going to do if you are going to

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continue to operate... What makes you think there isn't going to be a

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political stitch-up, if you like, a negotiation in which they say, guys

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you voted out, why don't you - let's see if we can do something here that

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salvages a bit of your membership? That is what half the country and

:19:39.:19:43.

Boris Johnson wants, isn't it? There is no basis upon which they can

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negotiate. They can do whatever they want. They won't give anybody free

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access to the market, which is our biggest single market, on the basis

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we are free not to follow any of the rules, all of which have been signed

:19:57.:20:00.

up to by British Governments in the past. The standards of which you

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sell goods, consumer protection, environmental rules, they won't say,

:20:06.:20:09.

we will negotiate with you but because you are Britain you can

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still come in on the basis you don't have to comply with any of the rules

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anymore. Or oh, we will negotiate with you, but... You won't pay your

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contribution to the budget of running the market and helping the

:20:25.:20:28.

poorer countries. It is not conceivable. All that will be

:20:29.:20:32.

negotiated - and it is very difficult - is the best arrangement

:20:33.:20:38.

that the 27 other governments will agree to to allow you some continued

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access, collaboration, work with the European Union. The negotiations

:20:46.:20:49.

will make the present air of uncertainty about exactly where you

:20:50.:20:57.

are even worse. Time up, I'm afraid. Thank you very much.

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Our last referendum on the issue of Europe was on June 5, 1975.

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Spoiler alert: the result was in favour of staying.

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Almost exactly two-thirds voted in favour of staying, in fact.

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And interestingly, of the four nations of the UK, England

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was the most enthusiastic for the EEC, far more

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Well, lots has changed since then, but there are also

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So it's worth spending a few minutes to look back on that experience.

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Veteran film maker Michael Cockerell, who has made

:21:27.:21:27.

documentaries on the 1975 referendum before, has been doing just that.

:21:28.:21:38.

# Let's stay in the Common Market... # The choice was whether we should

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stay in or get out of the Common Market. The referendum campaign was

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a tragic economic tale that put together the strangest of bed

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fellows. It was like tiptoeing into a brothel. You felt you might be

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doing something that was daring. I have made many films since then.

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I looked a bit different myself then.

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Whether Britain stays in the Common Market or not depends on what the 21

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members of the Labour Cabinet understand by the term

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"renegotiation". The Labour Prime Minister, Harold Wilson, faced with

:22:25.:22:28.

an increasingly Euro-sceptic party, had come up with the idea of

:22:29.:22:33.

renegotiations followed by an in-out referendum as a device for holding

:22:34.:22:39.

his party together. The Cabinet was deeply divided. Roy Jenkins led the

:22:40.:22:45.

majority of centrist pro-Market Ministers. Of the seven left-wingers

:22:46.:22:53.

who wanted out, they were led by Barbara Castle and Tony Benn. Wilson

:22:54.:22:58.

allowed his Ministers to campaign publicly against each other. On the

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day the decision was taken by the Cabinet, the Ministers got together

:23:03.:23:06.

and launched the "No" campaign. Wilson was very angry with us, but,

:23:07.:23:10.

still, we took that position and we did have that right to do it. But

:23:11.:23:17.

behind-the-scenes, the Labour Europhiles had, for months, been

:23:18.:23:20.

organising for the referendum campaign with the help of the

:23:21.:23:25.

businessman, who was to become Treasurer of the Conservative Party.

:23:26.:23:29.

My family owned this hotel at that time. So I had some sway with the

:23:30.:23:34.

management. Politicians from the left and right, who were normally

:23:35.:23:39.

sworn political enemies, would be discreetly summoned to the

:23:40.:23:43.

Dorchester. Somebody would telephone, say, could you come to

:23:44.:23:47.

breakfast on Tuesday morning? You never knew who was going to turn up.

:23:48.:23:59.

It was a group of people who wouldn't have wanted to sit down

:24:00.:24:07.

together in a public restaurant. If this is what politics was going to

:24:08.:24:10.

be like, this was a very attractive way of doing things. I lived so much

:24:11.:24:14.

in the politics of the Labour Party. You had cold rooms and soft

:24:15.:24:18.

biscuits. What was the point of the breakfast? It was planning the

:24:19.:24:22.

strategy about who they were going to influence and how they were going

:24:23.:24:27.

to fight this campaign. In the ballroom of the Dorchester, the Yes

:24:28.:24:31.

campaign was launched by Roy Jenkins, who shared the platform

:24:32.:24:36.

with fellow big cheeses from the Tory and Liberal Parties. Jenkins

:24:37.:24:44.

repeated his pledge to resign from the Government the the people voted

:24:45.:24:47.

to come out of Europe. I stand by that statement. I do not believe it

:24:48.:24:53.

is good for British politics that people should stay in Government and

:24:54.:24:56.

carry out policies which they believe to be profoundly mistaken.

:24:57.:25:03.

At the Dorchester, I asked Roy Jenkins, the miner's son, how

:25:04.:25:08.

damaging he thought a referendum campaign would be to the unity of

:25:09.:25:15.

the Labour Cabinet. He said, I really do hope this whole referendum

:25:16.:25:21.

campaign can be conducted without any rancour on either side.

:25:22.:25:27.

The campaign to get Britain out of the Common Market was led by the

:25:28.:25:33.

Industry Secretary Tony Benn. The public school-educated man of the

:25:34.:25:36.

people, who had come up with the idea of the referendum. I cannot

:25:37.:25:44.

believe that we shall not win on Independence Day a huge vote...

:25:45.:25:51.

Unlike Roy Jenkins, Tony Benn refused to share a platform with

:25:52.:26:02.

members of other parties. Other leading anti-Marketeers

:26:03.:26:05.

included Enoch Powell. This mixed bag played into the hands of the

:26:06.:26:11.

pro-European strategy. Unreliable people, dangerous people don't take

:26:12.:26:16.

their advice, they will lead you down the wrong path. The whole

:26:17.:26:21.

thrust of this campaign wasn't so much that it was sensible to stay

:26:22.:26:26.

in, but that it was complete madness to come out. And anybody who

:26:27.:26:36.

proposed that we came out was off their rocker, or virtually Marxist.

:26:37.:26:44.

As the opinion polls start to turn against the anti-Marketeers, Tony

:26:45.:26:48.

Benn decides to up the ante. He uses his authority as Industry Minister

:26:49.:26:51.

to make a headline-grabbing claim about the effects of our membership

:26:52.:26:59.

on the economy. Is 500,000 jobs lost and a huge increase in food prices

:27:00.:27:05.

at a stroke, caused by the Common Market... I find it increasingly

:27:06.:27:11.

difficult to take Mr Benn seriously as an economic minister. In which

:27:12.:27:15.

this technique in which you just think of a number and double it, and

:27:16.:27:19.

if challenged, you pretend you haven't been challenged and you

:27:20.:27:27.

react by thinking up some new claim. Fleet Street was united in depicting

:27:28.:27:33.

Benn as the bogey man of the No campaign. You became this demon

:27:34.:27:37.

figure in the campaign and was... Who did that? The media did it.

:27:38.:27:43.

Nothing to do with the personal - it was all the party leaders and the

:27:44.:27:48.

newspaper proprietors were determined to destroy anyone who

:27:49.:27:53.

took a contrary view. The cartoonists were in no doubt that

:27:54.:27:57.

Benn's motivation was to replace Harold Wilson as Prime Minister. The

:27:58.:28:01.

media was very strongly in favour of staying in. There were only three

:28:02.:28:06.

papers that were in favour of coming out - one was The Spectator, one the

:28:07.:28:13.

Daily Worker and one the Dundee Herald. In 1975 John Mills was one

:28:14.:28:22.

of the organisers of the "No" campaign, setting up meetings across

:28:23.:28:26.

the country. The campaign we ran was run on a shoestring compared with

:28:27.:28:29.

the Rolls-Royce effort on the other side. Money rolled in. The banks put

:28:30.:28:34.

in very large sums of money. It was very exciting. The big industrial

:28:35.:28:39.

companies? Yes, they came in with very big sums of money. They raised

:28:40.:28:43.

about twice as much money as we spent. How easy was it? Terribly

:28:44.:28:52.

easy. Alastair McAlpine was working for Margaret Thatcher, who had

:28:53.:28:55.

beaten Ted Heath, the man who had taken us into Europe. As the

:28:56.:28:59.

Conservatives for Europe launched their campaign, the old and new

:29:00.:29:02.

leader appeared together in public for the first time. Naturally, it is

:29:03.:29:10.

with some temerity that the pupil speaks before the master because you

:29:11.:29:13.

know more about it than any of the rest of us. Margaret Thatcher's view

:29:14.:29:17.

about Britain's place in Europe then could be summed up in three words -

:29:18.:29:22.

yes, yes, yes. I think it is absolutely vital that

:29:23.:29:27.

everyone should turn out in this referendum and vote yes so that the

:29:28.:29:32.

question is over once and for all, we are really in Europe and ready to

:29:33.:29:35.

go ahead. Passionately opposed to Margaret

:29:36.:29:44.

Thatcher over Europe was the Labour fire brand Barbara Castle, long

:29:45.:29:47.

tipped to become Britain's first woman Prime Minister. As the

:29:48.:29:52.

campaign neared the climax, with the debate at the Oxford union, Mrs

:29:53.:29:58.

Castle was up against Ted Heath and the liberal leader, Jeremy Thorpe.

:29:59.:30:03.

They lured us into the market with the mirage of the market miracle.

:30:04.:30:10.

Holding these views and passionately and sincerely as she can yous, may

:30:11.:30:15.

we assume if the vote was yes, she will not stay on to administer those

:30:16.:30:21.

policies as a minister. If the vote goes yes, my country will need me to

:30:22.:30:34.

save it. Tonight, for the first time in this referendum campaign, Labour

:30:35.:30:38.

minister meets Labour minister to discuss the arguments for and

:30:39.:30:42.

against Britain's continued membership of the common market. In

:30:43.:30:47.

a sense, we must give up some of our political liberty in order - No some

:30:48.:30:51.

of our political sovereignty, which is a different matter. No question

:30:52.:30:59.

of giving up liberty at all. Cut the umbilical cord that links the law

:31:00.:31:01.

makers with the people and you destroy the stability of this

:31:02.:31:05.

country. You are asking the British people now... To destroy democracy.

:31:06.:31:11.

To destroy Parliamentary democracy. And to subject themselves to great

:31:12.:31:20.

dangers in the future. Come on... On the eve of the referendum, Mrs T's

:31:21.:31:26.

jumper features the flags of the nine common market countries. I

:31:27.:31:34.

light this torch. She was lighting a torch for peace in Europe, with the

:31:35.:31:39.

yes campaigning claiming after two world wars that only a unified

:31:40.:31:42.

Europe with Britain as a member could prevent further wars. One of

:31:43.:31:47.

our posters was precisely this, it's better to lose a little sovereignty

:31:48.:31:52.

than to lose a son and a daughter. This was hard-hitting argument,

:31:53.:31:56.

based, looking backwards, on all the casualties. Reassert the right to

:31:57.:32:05.

rule ourselves, vote no. The votes were counted in vast arenas in 67

:32:06.:32:10.

regions of the UK. It's beginning to look as if we may not have a single

:32:11.:32:16.

no counting area in Britain itself. On a high turnout, the people voted

:32:17.:32:20.

by two to one for Britain to stay in the common market. The only area

:32:21.:32:27.

that's come veneer... Roy Jenkins was later to say he had so enjoyed

:32:28.:32:31.

working with like minded Conservatives and liberals on the

:32:32.:32:38.

campaign that he decided to form a new breakaway social democratic

:32:39.:32:41.

party, the SDP. It helped keep the Tories in power for nearly two

:32:42.:32:48.

decades. Tony Benn was demoted in the Cabinet, but over the following

:32:49.:32:53.

40 years, his continued stoking of public disillusion with Brussels,

:32:54.:32:57.

along with the spread of Tory Euro-scepticism led to a fresh

:32:58.:33:02.

in-out referendum. So for me, it's deja vu all over again.

:33:03.:33:06.

I could watch that archive all evening.

:33:07.:33:09.

So what does 1975 teach us about the experience we are now

:33:10.:33:12.

Joining me to discuss this is Guardian columnist Polly Toynbee,

:33:13.:33:16.

a Labour member who voted to remain in the EEC,

:33:17.:33:19.

as it was in 1975, and still wants to remain in the EU today.

:33:20.:33:23.

She subsequently left the Labour Party over the issue

:33:24.:33:25.

Also here is the former Telegraph editor, Charles Moore,

:33:26.:33:31.

who voted to remain in 1975 but now thinks that was a mistake.

:33:32.:33:35.

I did. My first vote, I was 18. I knew no better. But you're not going

:33:36.:33:45.

to now? I think it's unlikely. Was it the wrong call to make? I do,

:33:46.:33:50.

yeah. You've never had any doubts? No, I've never had any doubts. It

:33:51.:33:56.

was The 1975 split within Labour, that's where it began. It led to the

:33:57.:34:02.

SDP split. Let's talk about party dynamics and what the lessons are.

:34:03.:34:07.

You can see it, there them arguing. Are you worried by what you've seen

:34:08.:34:11.

today that the Conservative Party will struggle to... Yeah, it's bound

:34:12.:34:16.

to be pretty tense, yeah. The fact that Boris and Michael Gove as well

:34:17.:34:20.

as what people would unkindly call the usual suspects have come out,

:34:21.:34:26.

means it's a very big division. It directly bears on David Cameron's

:34:27.:34:30.

leadership, possibly even more than it did on Harold Wilson's. Going

:34:31.:34:35.

back to '75, is there anything they should do? Should they try to avoid

:34:36.:34:40.

two Cabinet ministers head to head in a pan trauma studio? -- pan

:34:41.:34:47.

trauma studio? -- panorama studio? I think that's the idea. They can't

:34:48.:34:51.

have a proper debate unless they are allowed to, because this is so

:34:52.:34:56.

dependent on the Conservative Prime Minister and Chancellor being able

:34:57.:35:04.

to have the heft to swing the vote their way against the main

:35:05.:35:07.

opposition. So if they don't debate each other, it will look very odd.

:35:08.:35:12.

Labour people will be very well advised to keep off platforms with

:35:13.:35:16.

Conservatives, it will do nothing to help bring Labour voters in. You

:35:17.:35:21.

have the unusual spectacle of nobody being on a platform. Tory can't be

:35:22.:35:28.

against Tory, Labour can't be... One of the reasons this is happening is

:35:29.:35:33.

the amazing vacuum of Labour on this subject. Labour hope that the only

:35:34.:35:36.

thing they can do about this is shut up. You can understand why they

:35:37.:35:41.

think that. It is very odd. They're not really talkling on the most

:35:42.:35:44.

important subject. The other thing that came out of that period was the

:35:45.:35:50.

party re-alignment really. That must be something in the minds of folks.

:35:51.:36:01.

You talk something like Chukka umunna and David Cameron agreeing

:36:02.:36:05.

with each other four months, every day, in and out, in, and disagreeing

:36:06.:36:12.

with some in their party. How will they go back? They are agreeing on

:36:13.:36:15.

just one thing and on different grounds. You heard Corbyn, who made

:36:16.:36:21.

a rather good speech, the things that we like about Europe, what we

:36:22.:36:26.

support are the social guarantees, the working rights, the guarantees

:36:27.:36:30.

for human rights, all those things that are prime motivations for the

:36:31.:36:33.

Brexit people, those are the things they most want to sweep away. They

:36:34.:36:38.

regard them as red tape. As obstacles. There is a deep

:36:39.:36:42.

difference. When you try and find unity on a campaign together, it's

:36:43.:36:49.

just harder. Isn't it harder to go back and fighting David Cameron,

:36:50.:36:53.

say? No they'll be perfectly happy to get back to fighting. The

:36:54.:36:58.

difference here is that what you had in 1975 was a clear split in which

:36:59.:37:02.

the common market seemed like the future and its opponents seemed like

:37:03.:37:06.

the past. The fact that you've got Gove and Boris coming in, they are

:37:07.:37:10.

arguing for the future. They're saying the EU is out of date. This

:37:11.:37:13.

is all something that is Twentieth Century. Now we're moving, they are

:37:14.:37:17.

in the modernising wing of the party. I don't think it seems like

:37:18.:37:21.

that really. I think that is definitely how they think. I think

:37:22.:37:23.

that's definitely what they're saying. Everybody always thinking

:37:24.:37:28.

they represent the future. Nobody ever says, "I represent the past."

:37:29.:37:33.

What you've got this time is the same sense they're a bunch of

:37:34.:37:36.

mavericks. There are quite a lot of them. Michael Gove is an interesting

:37:37.:37:42.

man, but fairly maverick. Boris is off the scale for mar Rickness, you

:37:43.:37:50.

look -- maverickness, you look around, then you look at the very

:37:51.:37:56.

few Labour people, Kate Hoey, pro-handguns, antismoking... What

:37:57.:37:59.

you're saying in fact is that these people are not members of the

:38:00.:38:03.

establishment. As a member of the establishment you would be against

:38:04.:38:05.

them. One of them is the Lord Chancellor. You can't get much more

:38:06.:38:13.

establishment. No, character. Oh, establishment is character? It's

:38:14.:38:18.

partly was going on in your head. What's clear about the 75 referendum

:38:19.:38:23.

and this one, is that the establishments and the elites,

:38:24.:38:30.

including the one that you're a member. Are you establishment?

:38:31.:38:37.

Others will judge. I do. It's all the people who are not in the elites

:38:38.:38:41.

who are challenging it. The difference between then and now, the

:38:42.:38:45.

elites are weaker now. People are more dissatisfied with them. You're

:38:46.:38:49.

just deciding to call them elites. They are. I'm afraid we have to hold

:38:50.:38:54.

it there. We could carry on arguing, when the show finishes.

:38:55.:38:57.

The great thing about a referendum is, of course,

:38:58.:39:00.

Or maybe you think that's the worst thing about it -

:39:01.:39:05.

but it is true, Boris Johnson and David Cameron have two votes,

:39:06.:39:07.

the same number as any other dysfunctional couple up

:39:08.:39:10.

So let's get a flavour of what the people think in one

:39:11.:39:14.

It has a Conservative MP, one who is campaigning to leave.

:39:15.:39:18.

Katie Razzall has spent the day there.

:39:19.:39:27.

45 minutes by train from London, Peterborough's got one of the

:39:28.:39:31.

fastest rates of population growth in the UK. This town of 185,000 or

:39:32.:39:38.

so saw an extra 25,000 arrivals in ten years, more than half of them

:39:39.:39:42.

from eastern and Central Europe. For this place, and many others like it,

:39:43.:39:46.

immigration will loom large as people decide how to vote in June.

:39:47.:39:52.

The local Conservative MP here is a renowned Euro-sceptic. Today Stuart

:39:53.:39:56.

Jackson told me he believeds Peterborough will vote to leave the

:39:57.:40:01.

EU, having experienced first hand the consequences of Europe's free

:40:02.:40:04.

movement of labour. This afternoon he put out a statement to his

:40:05.:40:08.

constituents explaining why he'll be voting no. He called the EU an

:40:09.:40:16.

anachronism, and said Britain will thrive outside it. The school gates

:40:17.:40:22.

are an example. 30 rang wadges are spoken by kids here. The local

:40:23.:40:28.

council has created places, primary school numbers are up by a quarter

:40:29.:40:33.

in five years. Peterborough has always welcomed different

:40:34.:40:36.

nationalities. It's just a numbers game, is how many and I don't know

:40:37.:40:41.

that anybody can quauntify or -- quantify or decide how many people

:40:42.:40:45.

can you add to a city before the pressure builds and builds. There

:40:46.:40:49.

has to be a ceiling somewhere. Do you think you've reached the ceiling

:40:50.:40:54.

yet? It's difficult to say. From my perspective, in this school here,

:40:55.:40:57.

it's been very well done in terms of it's been a year group at a time.

:40:58.:41:02.

Suddenly we didn't get 100 extra pupils, it was 30 at a time, one

:41:03.:41:06.

year after the other. It's been manageable. In June, whether our

:41:07.:41:11.

relationship with the EU is manageable, will be decided by

:41:12.:41:15.

people here. Get out. We need to get out. When you decide how to vote,

:41:16.:41:20.

what are the main drivers for you - immigration, movement of people?

:41:21.:41:25.

What is it? I think it's overall. Immigration is part of it.

:41:26.:41:30.

Generally, I think for us it would be better to stay with the EU than

:41:31.:41:34.

come out of it. I'm all for mixed culture. It's fantastic. If you're

:41:35.:41:37.

going to let lots of people in, you have to be organised and know where

:41:38.:41:40.

you're going to put them, what they're going to do for a living.

:41:41.:41:44.

They can't just come in and stick them somewhere and hope they fend

:41:45.:41:47.

for themselves. You need a plan of action. We don't have one at the

:41:48.:41:53.

moment. While some point to overstretched services, others argue

:41:54.:41:57.

that Peterborough's economy is thriving. Unemployment is down.

:41:58.:42:01.

7,000 new jobs have been created here in three years. This small

:42:02.:42:05.

business opened two years ago, supplying retailers by lights

:42:06.:42:08.

imported from both inside and outside the eewe. -- EU. I am

:42:09.:42:14.

undecided. I am worried about the future of the UK outside of Europe,

:42:15.:42:18.

in terms of the huge amount of change that might occur with all

:42:19.:42:24.

those trade agreements having to be renegotiated. I don't believe

:42:25.:42:29.

immigration is a wholly bad thing, though I have great sympathy with

:42:30.:42:35.

people who are in the worst part of immigration. I am waiting to be

:42:36.:42:41.

convinced. Already convinced is the warehouse manager, a cheerleader for

:42:42.:42:45.

all things EU, he's scathing about Boris Johnson's decision to join the

:42:46.:42:50.

leave side. I think it's foolhardy. It's more about him becoming leader

:42:51.:42:54.

of the party? I think so, without a doubt. It's actually, that yeah. He

:42:55.:42:59.

just wants to mark his card that he's the man for the job, basically.

:43:00.:43:04.

But at the expense of the British electorate. I don't want anyone to

:43:05.:43:10.

misinform us and take us down the wrong road for the wrong reasons.

:43:11.:43:15.

Which way will Peterborough go? Inside the famed cathedral, a

:43:16.:43:19.

reminder of our country's historical connection with Europe. Cathryn of

:43:20.:43:26.

air gone, a -- aragon is buried here, a totem perhaps for the

:43:27.:43:27.

complexity of separation. Will we keep up this Europe thing

:43:28.:43:36.

for all of the next four months? I'm back again tomorrow, we'll see then.

:43:37.:43:38.

That's all for tonight. Good night.

:43:39.:43:45.

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