24/03/2016 Newsnight

The chamber hereby sentences you, Radovan Karadzic, to a single

sentence of 40 years of imprisonment.

Guilty of genocide in Bosnia - Radovan Karadzic is sentenced

Genocide. There is no other way to classify it, murdering so many

people. And we'll talk to the man

who prosecuted him in As Belgian police hunt what may be

a second bomber on the run, there is growing anger

amongst its citizens, and a sense more might

have been done. TRANSLATION: So there is a sadness

because it's serious, but also anger because I feel they didn't do what

was needed to protect us. COMMENTATOR: Cruyff.

And we remember the Dutch Master of football, Johan Cruyff.

Convicted of genocide, extermination, persecution,

deportation, hostage taking and terror, the former Bosnian Serb

leader Radovan Karadzic was told today he would spend the rest

It is hard to quantify such crimes in terms of prison days.

A 40 years sentence feels peculiarly light,

for the perpetrator of quite so much including the massacre of 8,000

But today's ruling, by United Nations judges

at The Hague, has the feel of a landmark.

Mark Urban on the closing chapter of a story he's covered for more

than two decades, and a warning, his film does contain some graphic

It took more than two decades for this moment to come.

The chamber hereby sentences you, Radovan Karadzic, to a single

sentence of 40, 4-0 years of imprisonment.

A leader in the dock for war crimes, receiving a 40-year

Quite a rarity in this disordered world.

This woman's family were early victims of

At the start of the Bosnian war, both parents and

two uncles found themselves in Serb camps, where wholesale murder

Today, Karadzic was found guilty for that, but acquitted

on a charge of genocide relating to those actions in 1992.

Because there is no other way to classify, like,

The murder of maybe a couple of dozen people is different,

but when you murder hundreds upon thousands of people,

that is something completely different.

And does it serve notice, in your view, to other

people who might be tempted to conduct crimes against humanity

in the same way, that they won't get away with it?

I think it's incredibly important, especially

after there has been such a lengthy time and the fact that these men

had become fugitives and had gone into hiding and in his case,

I think because of that, it shows that

there are people out there that are trying to find all these

Karadzic was a poet, lecturer and psychiatrist,

who became the leader of Bosnia's Serbs.

From the outset, his community rejected the country's

breakaway from Yugoslavia, and tried to create their own reality,

carving out Serbian enclaves, driving away

other ethnicities and besieging the Bosnian government in Sarajevo.

I persuaded him to allow me to go behind the Serb lines right the way

through to their capital, and then of course, I saw

The truth is that I had always imagined great evil,

and I think he was a man who had great

evil, from a distorted character, inside him.

Great evil is visible on a man's face, but of course, it isn't.

After the war, Karadzic evaded arrest.

he earned a living as a healer before finally

Karadzic was charged with two counts of genocide,

five of crimes against humanity and four of

violating the customs and laws of war.

Today, he was found guilty on ten of those 11 counts.

And it was the murder of more than 7,000

Bosnians following the fall of Srebrenica in 1995 that sealed

It was an enormous catalogue of crimes, and it's taken the court

In the case of Karadzic's backer, Slobodan Milosevic,

he died before a verdict could be reached.

It's an example of, frankly, a process that

is still, in reality, experimental, and we should learn lessons from it.

It is not helpful at all for victims to

have to wait so long to bring whatever conclusion trial verdicts

And it frankly doesn't dignify, really,

legal systems to say that it is this necessary to wait this long

So does the Karadzic verdict set the tone for future

After Karadzic was charged and a new war had broken

out in Kosovo, even then, Serbia's military and political

leaders were afraid of going to the Hague.

I went to see the artillery commanders the day after,

and the day after that I went to see Milosevic.

And both of them, at that stage, feared the actions of the Hague

tribunal more than they feared Nato bombing.

I remember returning and saying to prime

minister Blair that in my view, if he were to stop the Kosovo war,

bombing would be less effective than immediately indicting him

for the crimes that I saw committed that day.

The Hague process has sent a powerful signal to dictators

But does fear of trial also mean that a Gaddafi or an Assad

will cling to power, refusing exile and prolonging war?

of the Sudanese leader Omar al-Bashir is instructive.

Probably, the only reason he stood again for re-election

was because that guarantees him, or more or less guarantees

that he will not be surrendered to the Hague for trial

And so, this is not a wartime hanging on,

this is a peacetime hanging on.

But if it happens in a country like Sudan, where some would say

there is a need for things to change, the presence of the court

Will today's verdict be followed by similar ones

Well, right now, great powers, the US, Russia,

China and so on, retain a considerable influence over

which cases are actually referred to the international court and can

in some measure protect themselves and their allies.

That has led to a lot of unhappiness among smaller countries,

particularly in Africa, who have threatened

So only an optimist would say that today's verdict sets

The Bosnian war claimed 100,000 lives.

Today has been a key moment in the reckoning of guilt for that

tragedy, even if Karadzic, who says he will appeal,

and many of his community are not yet ready to face

This was indeed a key moment but after six years of trial and 18

months of deliberation, many of the survivors and even those who gave

witness, did not live to see the day.

This evening, I spoke to Serge Brammertz, Chief Proseuctor

of the International Criminal Tribunal at the Hague.

It is true, the victims were waiting long, perhaps too long

It's still justice which has been done and seen to be done,

and I am absolutely convinced that many survivors

consider this a very important day for themselves,

allowing them to perhaps move forward and to give

this very difficult reconciliation a better chance of being successful.

Karadzic insisted on representing himself.

That must have been incredibly traumatic for the witnesses.

It was indeed the case that he represented himself.

Of course, he had a number of lawyers

working with him and supporting him, helping him.

But it is clear that in some cross-examinations,

for example, for witnesses and survivors, it was sometimes

a difficult situation for victims and survivors to testify.

On the other hand, for many of the victims,

it was so important for themselves and

their families to confront Karadzic, to confront the one,

now officially responsible for the crimes that were committed.

So for many, it was important to be able to tell the story,

I was in Sarajevo last year and it still feels like a frozen conflict.

The parliament itself breaks down into ethnic groupings.

that this will move to heal the country?

Unfortunately, I have to agree with you that what I see

and what we have witnessed over the last few years is far

from seeing the country moving forward as one nation.

Many of the persons convicted by this tribunal are still

seen as heroes in their own communities.

So there is a lot of work still to be done.

The president of the Republika Srpska, who just

this week named a student dormitory after Karadzic,

as a martyr for the Serbian people.

I consider it absolutely irresponsible

One would expect that politicians, especially in a country

still in transition after a difficult conflict,

would have a policy to unite people.

But what we see is unfortunately exactly the opposite,

using this rhetoric and trying to portray the picture of a hero.

If you are a leader, is the lesson "Don't do genocide",

"Don't get caught, don't relinquish power,

don't give yourself up to the Hague,

Do you feel the fear that wars may go on for

longer if they prefer to fight till the end?

I hope that the signal of this judgment is well.

Sometimes it takes long, but perhaps if somebody

is still in power, he cannot easily be prosecuted.

But at the end of the day, everybody has to confront the crimes

But I agree with you that if we look at the world today,

probably never since World War II have there been so many

conflicts ongoing, and unfortunately, the rule for many

conflicts is impunity and not accountability.

There may be those looking on who say you can do it when it

comes to the smaller countries like Bosnia and Liberia,

but you can't realistically imagine the day when a British Prime

Minister or an American president will be before you.

You know, international justice is functioning

But if there would not have been the ICTY, I don't think anybody

from the conflict in the former Yugoslavia

would have been prosecuted.

So I think international justice is still relatively young,

It is far from perfect, but there are a number

of encouraging signs, and I think this

Do you think that Bashar al-Assad

The conflict in Syria already today has been longer than the wars

in the former Yugoslavia, the number of victims being higher

at 250,000 than the victims during the conflict in the former

So I very much hope that sooner or later, there will be

It is a decision which has to be taken, I presume,

The Belgian interior and Justice Prime Minister -- ministers offered

to tender their resignations as a suspected

we will hear from our report in a moment but firstly we have heard in

the last few moments about a raid in Paris and another in Brussels. Very

sketchy details but Mark bourbon is here to do is tell us what you can.

A lot is going on in Europe. The Paris Raid, news of that broke, the

North of the City, the interior minister said that a plot has been

interrupted and a man arrested but he says it is not related to the

recent Brussels attacks. In Brussels, in the neighbourhood of

Maelbeek, six arrests reported tonight, so quite a bit going on, it

gives you a sense of how the counterterrorist service and police

in these countries is running hot in trying to deal with these plots.

This feels in stark contrast to what is happening on the political side,

where we have heard of these resignations from ministers who feel

they did not act fast enough? The embarrassing thing that emerged

yesterday from President Erdogan of Turkey was that this man, Ibrahim El

Bakraoui, was sent back from Turkey to the Netherlands in June and then

of course became one of the suicide bombers yesterday. What did the

Turks say to the Dutch? Wanted the Dutch say to the Belgians? Why,

having sent him back for being a suspected militant, wasn't he

questioned or something at the very least? A lot of wrinkles are being

exposed by this, and as we have seen since November, the fact that people

are able to move in such large numbers in the Schengen area, there

isn't a proper system of advanced passenger information on the

InterCity train services. All of these gaps in knowledge are being

exposed and have been exposed since Paris, particularly in Europe in

space, and it is a huge problem. We have heard from ministers offering

the resignation and it has not been accepted by the Prime Minister, but

we also heard this evening that two of the bombers, the brothers, were

on a US watchlist. Does that tell us anything? Well, a watchlist is if

you put your advanced passenger information, it will flag something.

There are normally different responses, ranging from sees this

person, to, please tell this security agency that he has passed

through your airport but take no further action. There are various

responses, and there are thousands of people on these watch lists. The

number of active militants who they would be looking at and returned

jihadists would be smaller than this. The real issue is if they are

moving in a car between Brussels and Paris, as people were last November,

how do you find them? They might or might not be on a list. They might

be using a false passport. We have seen signs recently of real alarm in

the counterterrorist services. We heard from Europol yesterday and

today about this, about the thousands of people. One suspect can

require dozens of security agents to have that person under 24-hour

surveillance. There simply are not the resources, and the space grim

feeling among many people in France and Belgium conducting security

operations that with the numbers of returned jihadists and suspected

members of Islamic State group sells, they just can't get on top of

all these plots. Thanks very much. Let's go now to the streets of

Brussels for this report. A minute's silence

to remember the dead. For some, the emotions

were still too much. I wanted to come because I am really

sad about it and I want to show my support and my love for my

city and all the people As well as sorrow, there is also

anger in some quarters that one suicide bomber had been

deported from Turkey last year, TRANSLATION: I think they didn't do

everything they could have, so I am sad because it

is so serious, and I am angry because I don't believe

they did enough to protect us. Belgium's intelligence services

based in the building behind me are facing a lot of tough questions

right now about their competence. It's not the first time they have

come in for criticism. After the events in Paris

in November, many in France were damning about Belgium's ability

to deal with jihadis plotting Today, both the Justice

and Interior Ministry TRANSLATION: I offered my

resignation to the Prime The Prime Minister and the inner

cabinet requested clearly this morning that I stay on,

given the current situation, that in a war situation,

you cannot leave the field. Here is why there is so much

pressure on Belgium's intelligence The man in the middle of this photo,

Ibrahim El Bakraoui, who blew himself up

at the airport, was deported from Turkey

as a terrorism suspect, although Belgian authorities

said they couldn't link His brother Khaled, who blew himself

up at Maelbeek Metro station, had rented a safe house used to prepare

for the Paris attacks and a flat Salah Abdeslam used to hide away.

Another suspected of being an IS Bob May go behind both the Brussels and

Paris attacks before reportedly blowing himself up at the airport as

well, was also well known to Belgian authorities. As these court papers

show, in the past few weeks, one suspect was being tried in absentia,

accused of being part of a network sending fighters to Syria. According

to the documents, he had joined IS but had managed to slip back into

Belgium. Some analysts say Belgian security services are overwhelmed.

Some people talk of 900 people on the watchlist by the intelligence

services. And we have two agencies, which altogether makes up 1000

officers. The EU have almost one potential terrorist for one

intelligence officer. The budget of the intelligence services has not

only declined recently, it has declined for the past 25 years. In

Belgium, there has been this trend of cutting into everything that

relates to security, not only intelligence, but also police and

defence. Bowden was in some ways expecting to be targeted, but the

scale of what happened here on Tuesday morning was still a shock --

Belgium was expecting to be targeted. It could have been even

deadlier. Today, there have been claims that Salah Abdeslam was

planning to launch an attack using automatic weapons to coincide with

the explosions. The ease with which he and others have been able to

travel around Europe is leading many to call for greater international

intelligence cooperation. We are dealing with individuals and a

threat of denying the existence of borders. They are making use of it,

capitalising on the lack of cooperation between the various

police and intelligence services and the fact that basically, outlaws

move faster than the law. With two suspects still on the run, the

intelligence services here are trying to catch the rest of this

debt work whilst themselves under fire.

So what does terror do to those of us left behind, even those who have

not been visiting heard? Have found yourself perhaps not taking the tube

in recent days or looking around you with slightly more suspicion?

Joining me now is Neil Norman, founder of Human Recognition Systems

and Deborah Del Vecchio-Scully, trauma counsellor who was with

Debra, I wonder if you can give us a sense, after an attack like 9/11, we

always feel that life will not be the same again, but did people

actually change their behaviour? Well, I do feel that people did feel

like life had changed for ever. And to some degree, people change with

that. But it depends on your circumstances and your exposure. In

today's world, with all the uncertainty that is happening in

Europe and Brussels and Paris, there is more of a pervasive sense of

fearfulness in life in general and how we go about living. But does

that last? If you make a pledge to yourself like, you are not going to

get on the subway or the tube or whatever it may be, do people stick

to that and if so, for how long? That is hard to predict. Those kinds

of behaviours are fair driven, and should things calm down and resume

to more, normal is an overused word, but a sense of less impending doom

from the number of attacks that have been happening, people might slowly

resume their normal activities. A lot of that depends on who they were

before this attack, if they have had exposure to other scary and

terrifying events. And just the human capacity for coping. Neil,

sometimes we look to technology to give us an extra front-line in

dealing with that terror. Do you think people are weirdly sort of

craving that now, paving something that does provide an extra barrier?

I think we are accepting the fact that technology has a role to play,

and we would also accept that we will have to surrender convenience,

something we crave a lot in the West. So if you look at what has

recently happened, I think it is fair to say that one of the things

that will have to be considered is pushing back the barriers. At the

moment, we only stop and check people at the ticket presentation

point, whereas if you go through other airports around the world,

like in East Africa, they tend to push the barrier out further. Where

would you stand on something like profiling? Is that always to be

rejected? It is a difficult subject. But one of the bodies within the

United Nations has been looking at this for a number of years and there

are encouraging reports to introduce some kind of profiling where you

have different gradings of security being applied to different threats,

with a degree of randomisation. So the people you assume to be safe,

you still randomly select them for different grades of security to put

them through. If you look at the profile of individuals who tend to

commit these sorts of terrorist acts, they do fit a particular

profile. It is not comfortable for us to discuss, but I think there are

ways and means. As I say, a United Nations body has been looking to

investigate this. But there is a guilt associated with profiling,

isn't that? Or discomfort. I absolutely feel that it is a

slippery slope ethnically to begin profiling. -- ethically. What about

the formula for dealing with atrocities? We have noticed that

there is almost a sense that you have the # ready or the colours of

the artful tower, the changing of the Avatar on social media -- the

colours of the Eiffel Tower. There is almost a passivity to that

response. I wonder if you think that is a coping mechanism or a way of

slipping into acceptance. Unfortunately, I think there is a

desensitisation. There seem to be so many violent acts, senseless

terrorist acts, that in essence, as a way of coping, particularly with

people who have been traumatised, you do slip into avoidance and

denial. And unfortunately, I think technology has shrunk our world. I

am here in Connecticut on the other side of the world, and we with the

American counselling Association can anticipate how others are going to

respond to something, because social media brings it right into our

homes, in real-time. Thank you both very much.

A packed public gallery at the Royal Courts

The Independent Inquiry into Child Sexual Abuse

was considering what happened in the London Borough

Dozens of their former residents had turned up to witness it.

That abuse occurred in Lambeth's care homes in the latter half

What Justice Lowell Goddard's inquiry is examining is the extent

of institutional failure in tackling it.

A few weeks ago, Newsnight examined one particular strand

We'll come to that in a moment, but first, Jake Morris

This morning's hearing heard some big claims of abuse on an industrial

scale, claims of institutionalised evil, claims of a reversal back to

the dark ages. These claims were made by the leader of this group of

former residents of Lambeth care homes. It is a group who now say

they number 600 survivors. One of the things that Lambeth has never

lacked over the years is inquiries. There have been numerous police

inquiries. Social workers have looked at various aspects of

Lambeth. Independent experts have been brought in. Each of these

inquiries has looked at a particular strand of what went wrong. None of

them have really burned the dots and got the overall big picture. That is

the challenge that faces justice Goddard and her panel here, to get

to the bottom of what really happened. One of the other

challenges they face is to have the trust of the survivors. That is not

a given. After today's hearing, I spoke to the leader of this group

and I asked him what degree of faith his members have in this inquiry.

I have faith in the investigation we're going to do, and I believe

if we can point them in the right direction,

this inquiry will have no option but to find the truth.

Newsnight was also mentioned, what did the report say? A report how in

1998 a detected have -- a detective was removed from his post when a man

wanted to approach Paul Boateng. We are told he wanted to ask him what

if anything he knew of a known paedophile, a man called John

Carroll. Today at the enquiry, Ben Emerson set out a lot of the

territory that will be covered and he made reference to the Newsnight

broadcast and I think what's clear what was in the broadcast will be

examined by the enquiry. He also said and I should make it clear

there has been no evidence presented to the enquiry of any wrongdoing by

Lord Boateng and in our broadcast we made that clear also, and he says he

did not know John Carroll. Thank you for joining us.

We're hurtling towards the Easter weekend and for Ireland,

The citizens of our closest neighbour are preparing to celebrate

the 100th anniversary of the Easter Rising, the rebellion

against the British Empire, the start of a series of events

which led to the country leaving the United Kingdom altogether.

But for some, its legacy remains a difficult one, with which Ireland

To know they dreamed and are dead.

In 1921, the poet WB Yeats published those words about the most important

The Easter Rising of 1916, Ireland's foundational moment.

In 1916, with the First World War raging, a ragtag group of rebels

and revolutionaries saw an opportunity to strike

Ireland had yet again been promised home-rule,

but for these men, that simply wasn't enough.

With England distracted, with the war on the continent,

the First World War, it was seen as an opportune moment,

at some point during the course of that horrific war,

in which 200,000 Irish men are enlisted into the British Army,

On Easter Monday, nationalists seized the General Post Office.

Patrick Pearse, one of the rebel leaders, pasted copies

of the Irish Proclamation on its doors.

The British government quickly dispatched thousands of soldiers.

They thought they were in France, having been training for the war.

What any British soldier in 1916 would do, they built trenches

After shelling from a Royal Navy battleship, Dublin was in flames.

By Saturday, the rising had been crushed.

In the following days the British government ordered the execution

of 15 of its leaders by firing squad.

James Connolly's injuries in the battle were so grevious

Thousands more including 77 women were arrested.

The Irish public opinion initially was very hostile to the rising

but that start to change when the news of the executions

The way the executions were carried out was extraordinarily hamfisted.

It was under the Defence of the Realm Act, very strict

It has been likened by one observer, the Irish public were watching

the slow seeping blood from behind the prison door.

1916 is about contested memory and history.

Thousands of Irish men died at the Battle of the Somme,

only months later, fighting for the British Empire,

commemorated here at the Irish War Memorial.

The truth is, 1916 helped create and cement the divisions we've known

Those who fought against the Imperial British,

or who fought the Germans on continental Europe?

That question continues to divide Ireland.

Those who rebelled against the state in 1916 were a tiny minority,

they didn't command the support even fellow nationalists.

There's a large degree of antipathy towards them in the unionist

community because the rebellion took place at a time when men

from all over Ireland, Unionist and nationalist,

were fighting alongside each other and dying in the mud of Flanders.

All of us, as we try to be reconciled to living together,

because we will live together, have to accept that we are

We mightn't agree with the other narrative, but it is the sum total

There are those who will commemorate the battle of the Somme,

We have to respect the memory of those who fell.

But that was an imperialist adventure.

President de Valera, the sole surviving commandant

With him, Premier Sean Lemass at the celebrations in Dublin

outside the General Post Office where the first shots were fired.

The Rising's 50th anniversary in 1966 was celebrated

Today's perspective of the rising is more nuanced.

The fact that it caused carnage, that the majority of people killed

in the rising were civilians caught in the wrong place

The fact that although this was very rarely referred to,

the fact that this set the seal on Ulster's separatism.

Independence wouldn't have happened when it did without the rising,

but then, perhaps, the violence to come might not have either.

It began a war of independence, and the legacy of that war

of independence includes the partition of Ireland.

It includes the question of those who felt they were attending

to unfinished business at a much later stage.

Because obviously a unified Irish Republic was not achieved

And you have the role of violence in the creation of both states,

Northern Ireland, and ultimately what became known as the Republic.

They are very troubling questions that are very difficult

Someone once said that Britain always looked at Ireland

through the wrong end of a telescope, so never

Now Ireland is turning deep telescope onto itself

On this 100th anniversary it is seeing them anew.

And Connolly and Pearse

Are changed, changed utterly:

A terrible beauty is born.

Actress and Director, Fiona Shaw, there, reading WB Yeats,

They talk of him as the man who reinvented football.

The Dutch Master Johan Cruyff died today, a player and then a manager

who gave a whole new philosophy to football and, you might even say,

gave us the modern, inimitable Barcelona as it plays today.

Just as importantly, he gave us the legacy

We'll come to that in a moment, with some trepidation.

First, one of his biggest fans, our very own Stephen Smith.

And they were the best side around by a

He invented this Cruyff turn, where he seemed

to be managing to play the ball back through his own feet.

The little turn and the back flick, and completely

wrongfooting the fullback on that occasion.

The style of his football, and the grace.

Cruyff was born a few hundred yards from the Ajax stadium,

and his dad was a grocer who supplied Ajax with

His mother used to clean the changing rooms at Ajax to make

money, so they really lived at Ajax and

from the age of four used to hang around and everyone knew this

toddler who was always hanging around, kicking a ball.

It really was his club in a way that is

The main thing for everybody and especially for a

sportsman is, you must enjoy yourself, otherwise you will never

enjoy it and you will never be good.

He said that people who try to score these days hit the ball

He said, I could hit it with the side of the foot,

Therefore, I am six times better than

Not everybody liked him, because he could be arrogant

and you would struggle to get him to change

The first time I met him, when he was with Barcelona,

he came into the room smoking, and took

a couple of puffs and put it down on the ashtray and said,

"if Michels comes in, the manager," Rinus Michels,

Those were the first words he said to me.

Let me show you an advert you made a few years ago,

encouraging people to kick the habit.

How about that for control, with a cigarette box?

I was lucky enough to work for him

at Barcelona for a year, and he was the best player

in training most of the time, even though he was obviously

way past his sell-by date in terms of playing.

He was extraordinary as a coach.

even though, to be honest,

there were only two foreign players allowed.

And he clearly didn't want me there, he wanted me out.

You can't do anything more than be the best of your era,

Unlike Maradona and Pele, he never won a World Cup,

but he didn't think that was important.

What mattered was the process of the game.

He said in 1974, we lost the final to Germany,

but really, we won the World Cup, because everyone talked

about our football and not Germany's football.

That's pretty much always got time for. How can we not leave you

without recreating the signature move from man himself? I'm joined by

Danny McGee and Charlotte Lay, experts in what you may call the

dark arts of football. I know that Cruyff meant a lot to your family,

Charlotte. He was my dad's hero, so much so that my grandad bought my

dad a colour TV for the 74 World Cup just so he could watch Cruyff. So he

could see the infamous Cruyff turn. I'm going to show you, you pretend

to shoot and then you go the opposite way, like that. It is

effective but it isn't easy! Are you going to defend? I'm not going to

take my off the ball. The ten should come across, and then turn the other

way with the inside of your and motorway. Would you like to have a

go? -- motor away. No, I wouldn't! I am left footed.

The weather is turning much more changeable over the next couple of

days after the recent settled weather. Good Friday will