31/03/2016 Newsnight

A Downing Street crisis meeting, but no plan to keep steel

Government will do everything it can, working with the company,

to try to secure the future of steel-making in Port Talbot

We debate two very different solutions.

A Newsnight exclusive, the illegal Jewish schools known

to the Department of Education, where children receive little other

I'm 25 now and my level of education is just

Zaha Hadid, who died today, designed some of the world's most

A longtime friend who was also a longtime client is here to look

We have inherited quite a budget crunch from President Tramp.

Could this be the moment Donald Trump got the idea

We speak to The Simpsons writer who penned those prophetic words.

Three days after Tata Steel dropped the bombshell that it's preparing

to sell all its UK assets, including the country's biggest

steel plant in Port Talbot, the government still looks

"Asleep at the wheel", was how the local MP

It's fair to say there is no plan to save it.

Today, after chairing an emergency meeting on the crisis,

David Cameron insisted the government wasn't ruling

anything out but didn't believe that nationalisation was the answer.

But the Liberal Democrat leader Tim Farron said

that the Conservatives supported nationalising the banks,

so they should consider the same thing for the steel industry.

Clouds of uncertainty hangs over Port Talbot.

The plant is still open but it is still losing around

?1 million a day with no new buyer in sight.

The crisis has not gone well for the government either.

Labour has accused them of being missing in action and some

The Business Secretary Sajid Javid has been on a ministerial

David Cameron came back from holiday in Lanzarote

This seems unlikely, particularly from a

Despite sounding very much like he is ruling out

I don't believe nationalisation is the right answer.

What we want to do is secure a long-term future for Port Talbot.

EU rules do not explicitly prohibit nationalisation.

John McDonnell suggested it could be at least a temporary solution.

If there is not a buyer coming forward quickly it will have to be

nationalised to stabilise and then we look at the investment strategy

In that way, buyers may emerge or we might want

to keep a public stake, but we have to secure the industry

in the short-term, to give us those options.

Supporters of the idea say it is no different to bailing out

the banks, but even the local Labour MP says even nationalisation is not

I think if we are going to talk about

nationalisation, we need to be clear that the devil is in the detail.

We have to work out what would it cost, for how long?

An open-ended wholesale nationalisation without

taking exit strategy, without a clear plan

for when you would be putting it back into the private

sector would not be the right way to go.

The ideal option, and the most unlikely given Tata's

Actually Tata had announced recently in another part of their steel

business in the UK that they were planning to close down and a buyer

There was an announcement for part of their

business in Scotland where a buyer has been found.

It might require some sort of government support.

At present, no realistic candidate has put themselves forward.

It is also not clear how much the government can help.

The government could structure a series of loans to prop

But potentially this could fall foul of

Earlier this year, the EU competition commissioner

announced an investigation into 2 billion euros worth of state

support that the Italian government gave to the struggling

And those who argue that leaving the EU would free the government's

It is almost unthinkable that Britain would not still be subject

to European competition laws as part of a trade deal,

The IPPR think tank has estimated that 15,000

jobs at Tata UK would go and even more in the supply chain

In the shadow of the steelworks on a sunny afternoon on Aberavon

beach, residents are assessing

I don't know if the government are going to do anything.

If they are going to help even in the short-term,

but it is 40,000 jobs just in Port Talbot

It is a lot of people to try to find work in a short space of time

Mr Cameron does not seem to be interested in saving the steel

If they bail out the steelworks, you have other industries saying,

You're going to get that question as well. I work for a small contracting

company, if we didn't run our business properly, nobody would be

thinking of trying to bail us out. Whatever happens next, there's a

good chance that this part of Wales will be changing. At the moment, no

one is quite sure how. I'm joined by the former Chancellor

of the Exchequer Kenneth Clarke and Paul Mason, the economics

journalist, formerly of Newsnight and now an author. Kenneth Clarke,

you heard the man in Wales saying that the government doesn't seem to

be interested in saving the plant. There isn't a plan, and the problem

is that it isn't 15,000, not even the supply chain, it is the local

communities that will be devastated if there is and a plan. Everyone

will do whatever they can for the community. It is devastating and you

have to think of what you can do in the interests of the thousands of

people who are working there, a lot of people around that area, I know

south Wales and I often drive past Port Talbot. Drive past it? It would

be eight devastating blow if it goes but you do have two... You have to

have a serious plan as to how exactly you are going to save

whatever parts of the steel business have a long-term future. You can't

just go for a knee jerk reaction of saying we will take it on, whatever

it costs, the government losing ?1 million a day, putting billions of

pounds in, when a good company like Tata can't see any future in doing

that. Kenneth Clarke is right, the government can't just put in ?1

million a day indefinitely. The point about having secretaries of

state isn't to put yourself in a position where you need to take a

knee jerk reaction. He has been in power for nearly a year. Over the

last 48 hours we have seen what one man armed with a crazy private

ideology that only he seems to be interested in and what Dot lot of --

and what incompetence can do. Sajid Javid has destroyed it and it is

certain to be nationalised. Kenneth you just heard him clutching at

straws, maybe they will sell it to someone, tell us, secretary of

state. Is it possible to sell it in bits, rather than a buyer, a global

company? Possible, nobody wants in their right mind to nationalise

something like this because it would take a long-term turnaround plan to

get it back into the private sector. The problem is, Tata Steel is a

collection of plants that do different things. You could sell

them off, hand them to the workforce as mutuals separately, but most

steel industries in the world operate at scale because they have

to draw capital from other sources and simply taking Scunthorpe, or

Port Talbot and turning them into a separate business, doesn't

necessarily secure its long-term future. From a strategic point of

view, can you imagine a United Kingdom without a steel industry, a

major steel industry? I hope we have a United Kingdom which has a good,

modern steel industry which is probably very much specialised, and

fast products being produced at a rate which is competitive. It makes

me nostalgic to hear 1960s leftism back in fashion, I heard this went I

was a young man. It was a catastrophe and we were closing

steel plants even when we had a nationalised British steel. Some of

these plants obviously have a future. We have sold some recently.

Why isn't there a buyer for these ones? Because is losing ?1 million a

day and there is a worldwide collapse in commodity prices. There

is a surplus capacity in the Far East, but all over Europe and what

you can't do is to say, we are going to put, however much it takes our

steel industry. Let's come back to what Ken Clarke said, we don't know

it is losing ?1 million a day, a week, in what sector, we need to

know. There is a reporter, McKenzie, Stephen Kinnock, the union community

took a long time to draw up and take it to Mumbai and Tata said it isn't

good enough. How do you respond to the accusation that it is 60s

leftism? It was a disaster before. These industries have gone anyway.

It is all very well dissing nationalisation until the banking

system collapses, half of the banking system in this country and

Europe had to be nationalised. Radical leftism, the kind you heard

from John McDonnell isn't obsessed with nationalisation, it's about

shaping the market, understanding we are a national market in a global

space and what companies want is long-term predictability. Sajid

Javid cannot give Tata or anybody else long-term predictability

because he doesn't believe in the industry. Tim Farron mentioned this

as well, if the Conservatives supported nationalising the banks,

which they did, what is different about nationalising steel, even

taking it short-term? The banks had to be nationalised because if you

don't have a banking system, the rest of the economy collapses. So it

is OK for Port Talbot to collapse? We closed things with consequences

for the committee but we didn't just read in. If you're looking for a

future for that part of British steel which has a future, you need

people who know something about the steel industry, who look at the

market and decide if it has a future. What about the long game? We

know that China is nationalised and that production will go down. Take

the long view that maybe we have to bail out for a period of time, and

deal with European Union rules, but losing it now would mean losing it

for ever? China sets out five-year plans and what they have done is to

say that 1.5 million people are going to lose their jobs as they

make closures of the plants which they don't have any -- don't think

have any future and they are looking for talented, a consumer -based

economy to build their future. The real way of looking after

communities is to actually support and help those who have a prospect

of being able to be a success, provide a good living for a

generation to come. If you get a steel company who wants to buy parts

of this plant, they will have done a proper study of it, it won't be

based on ideology. They will have decided how they can get costs under

control, what products have a future and the market. We had Rolls-Royce,

money was put in, the government has put money into different things,

even at a loss for a while. Do you, even from the mood music from David

Cameron, refused to rule out the possibility that he will

nationalise? He will have two nationalise some or all of those

plants. If there is one party looks after the interests of the Chinese

steelworker it is the Conservatives who have wasted nothing in vetoing

the tariffs that Europe wanted to put on the Chinese steel that was

dumped and we know from Tata's statements to the press was the

"Last straw" in convincing them that the British government had no belief

in steel. We need a long-term plan, a government that believes in

intervening to save strategic industries and Sajid Javid does not

believe in the industry. We put tariffs on China where they are

dumping, we have agreed European tariffs but we can't go in for a

tariff war. There are hundreds of thousands of jobs in this country

which may benefit if we build up our own exports to China. And we are

building up our exports to China. A great market for the future. To

start engaging in a tariff war with China, and excluding products and

thinking that they won't retaliate and take anything exclude us from

China, is going back to the 1930s, even older and nonsense stuff. None

of these proposals being put forward had anything to deal with the real

problem, can someone who runs the steel business identified this

business, or parts of it and identify an investment plan and put

it back on its feet? There is no ideological or political solution.

The government has no alternative. The law in England says that schools

have to offer a broad education. Most children are taught

subjects including English, maths, science, geography

and history, but not all children. A small private community of strict

orthodox Jews in London known as the Haredi Jews, who have

withdrawn from some modern secular culture,

are running at least a dozen illegal consists almost entirely

of religious studies. Newsnight has discovered that some

of these secretive illegal schools are registered with the Charities

Commission simply as charities, We spoke to some former pupils

of these illegal schools who feel that their lives have been ruined

by a lack of proper education. Chris Cook has this exclusive

report. I am very unhappy with

the education I received. I have a distorted

view of the world. I am 25 now and my level

of education is just This is one of Britain's quietest

and most private communities, yet, despite keeping itself

to itself, it is getting unwanted 30,000 Haredi Jews, followers

of a variety of strict Orthodox traditions, live around

here in Stamford Hill, The authorities are worried

about some of their private boys' schools which, contrary to the law,

are not registered. Current and former community members

estimate there are between a dozen and 20 significantly sized illegal

schools that are uninspected, and offer a narrow syllabus,

teaching up to 1000 boys. Now one of the oldest

principles about how England regulates its schools is that

parents should have the right have the right to educate

their own children according A second principle is no child

should be given an education so narrow they can't do

what they would like to do in adulthood, and sometimes

in religious communities, whether Muslim, Christian

or here in Stamford Hill, We met several former pupils

who have left the community and feel their education

in the illegal schools was poor. They are anonymous because their

families would be upset by their participation

in this report. Despite growing up in London,

English is a second language Their words are spoken by actors

with similar accents. Basically, just imagine a school

of 200, 300 years ago. We only used Yiddish

at home and school. I feel my whole childhood has

been taken away from me. Haredi parents tend to educate

their girls in relatively mainstream schools, but lots want a religious

education in Yiddish for their boys. They want a primary education before

the age of 13 with only an hour We weren't taught any

geography because why? If we stay in this enclave

all of our lives, why Any other subjects other

than English and maths, But even English and maths was only

the very minimum for After the age of 13 or so,

some parents want an almost exclusively religious education

in so-called yeshivas Now some of these schools

are registered but community members defend the right of schools

to remain unregistered. They fear the authorities will not

respect their curriculum choices The authorities are dedicated

to closing the illegal schools down but still,

we found them pretty easily. It is late morning and we

are in Stamford Hill. We have been here since 6am and have

been doing roughly what the council does when they hear a report

of a suspected illegal school. They turn up and watch to see

if young boys are turning up Sure enough, between 6am and 8am,

we saw boys turn up for their school day at around four sites

around Stamford Hill, none of whom are registered

with the Department We have since found that

whistle-blowers have notified the DfE about all four

of those schools. But we learned when they

investigated one of them, they found only adults

learning there. So to check on what we saw,

we got a Yiddish speaker to ring that unregistered yeshiva, posing

as a parent of a 13-year-old boy. Our caller asked when

the school day started. We begin

the day at morning prayer. However there is probably

a dawn framework for those And those who want to come,

when did they start? I'm not here in the morning

so I don't know. So when is morning

prayer, eight, 8:30am? And then in the evening,

the students are there until 9pm? How many, the junior yeshiva

is reasonably big nowadays, When asked what was on the syllabus

the school listed no secular And there is only one

place at this school, which is registered

with the Charities Commission, so they get tax advantages,

something the British Humanist Association found

in other cases too. By being allowed to register

as charities, these schools are being given access to tax

and other financial benefits that supplements the hundreds

of thousands of pounds of money That means this is not just a matter

for the Department in a regulatory sense to sort out, it also

is a serious matter for the Charity We have been asked not to reveal

the schools' locations Being unregistered puts these

schools outside child protection processes or normal health

and safety oversight. The school we rang up is housed

in a building that failed a fire brigade fire safety

inspection last year. The critical question however

is about whether parents should be able to ask for such a narrow

education for their own children. I am angry but the thing is I don't

know who to address that anger at. Because my parents were

brainwashed to live like this. They believe this is the lifestyle

they need to live. So they did not do it to harm me

so I can't hate them for that. Why do I need at this age to do

things I should have done ten, It is stopping me from getting

opportunities someone else my age can get just because I have

got no qualifications, and that is why I am

struggling now with my job. Their parents and teachers gave them

a highly intellectual, very sophisticated education

for the life they planned They have rejected that and gone off

into the world outside. So they have to start again,

they have to acquire an education And this headteacher

of a registered Haredi school feels his

education was excellent. My experience of the yeshiva,

which was unregistered, I attended a yeshiva from the age

of 14 and I spent the majority Now you should know that these

studies are challenging I feel, and I know that when I went,

the days I spent in the yeshiva and years I spent, I have gained

the vital skills of logical The yeshiva has put great emphasis

on building confidence through public speaking

or leading prayers. Now defenders of the community

insist boys can retrain for life outside Stamford Hill

if that is what they want. I spent a lot of time learning

equations for physics. Have you ever use that

since she left school? And you are a successful journalist

and television reporter. If I wanted to study

physics at university Yes but you did not know that

until you made your decision Yes, but I had the option to study

physics at University because I had All Jewish children have the option

of studying any subject When you talk about an adult of 17,

18, 19, the parents have no control over the child, the child or young

adult makes their decision The headteacher thinks

that the Haredi primaries have been getting better,

which is the key to They were let down in a primary

school system up to the age of Year 9 where the provision of secular

studies was not good enough. And I said we are currently doing

a huge amount to improve the standards of secular education

and I am not convinced that a fundamental change

to the structure of the education These schools are unlike the many

mainstream Jewish faith schools in England that offer a broad

curriculum but lots of Haredi parents use illegal schools

precisely because they don't want a broad curriculum and they fear

that if the illegal schools were registered, they would need

to become less specialised, or even forced to close

by the Department for Education. We are joined by the President but

first Chris Cooke is here and you have statements from various bodies

after the film. Starting with the Department for Education, the

ultimate regulator. They say unregistered schools are illegal and

unsafe and they are taking direct action to protect children and it

sounds similar to the Ofsted statement to note that Ofsted

established a task force to investigate unregistered schools and

since November the Chief inspector has commissioned the inspection of

eight schools seven of which they have close. The charities commission

make an appearance and they say that charities must comply with the

charity rules and any other regulators' rules and will assess

information and liaise with the Department for Education if

necessary. What do you make of this. It was a fair film and highlighted

how some schools operate in an illegal environment where they

present a terrible health and safety fears to the children. I do not

condone lawbreaking. Why do you think a number, a substantial number

of Haredi parents take the step of sending children to unregistered

schools? Because they want the children to have what is a

curriculum which to the mainstream part of the Jewish community and

most people in this country appears restricted and narrow. Because they

are taught what the parents believed to be essential Jewish values and

give them what they regard as the priorities of an intensive Jewish

education in biblical texts. The schools are essentially conservative

and they are not extremists. No child from these schools will ever

come out and do any violent act, they are respectful and well

mannered children. But they are not prepared for the outside world. The

young man said he had the education of a ten, 11-year-old. Do you think

parents have the right to prevent children from having a rounded

education? Parents need to comply with the law, which should be

upheld, which is there should be a National Curriculum that prepares

children of all faiths for life in the outside world. There are Haredi

schools that are registered and comply with the curriculum will stop

the majority of Haredi schools are high performing schools. You are

talking of a very small, narrow fringe of schools. 1000 children,

unfortunately. That is an estimate, there could be hundreds of children

at these schools. Why do you think that neither Ofsted and the

Department for Education do not go into these buildings that could be

condemned, and shut them down? If you shut them now, what happens to

the children, where did they go? There are not necessarily places in

other schools in Hackney for them to go to. A better policy must be for

public bodies to work with communities and schools, as we saw

from the report, the head teacher, show the communities there is a

better way forward. We have been in too many Haredi schools, to discuss

with them difficult subjects they have not yet been prepared to work

out how to convey to the children. It has to be a sensitive discussion

to bring the schools forward rather than drive them somewhere

underground. Do you think the approach of Ofsted towards faith

schools is wanting when it comes to Haredi schools? I think it is. I do

not think there has been a clear understanding of the community's

traditions and they have gone in heavy-handed. Catholic schools,

Kristian schools, the Jewish schools, it is not just Haredi

schools, we have had inspectors go to primary schools and ask young

children if they have a boy or girl friends and the children do not

understand the question at that age. All sorts of cultural assumptions by

the inspectors without sensitivity to the culture of the communities.

I'm interested in the idea that for parents, you heard the professor

saying that you can get an education after but in society, the way it is

today, with jobs and so forth, it is virtually impossible to go from

being an educated nine, ten-year-old, to being 25 and

getting a job in the steel industry, physics, and it means a lot of life

isn't open to them. You would be surprised how quickly children who

may have had a particularly narrow education until the age of 16, after

which they can learn whenever they like, can quickly adapt, but I agree

with you, it is really important that all of our children can be

prepared for the life outside. Thank you for joining us.

Dame Zaha Hadid, who died today at the age of 65,

created some of the world's greatest and most imaginative architecture,

from the Vitra Fire Station in Germany to the London Aquatic

Centre, from the Maxxi Museum of 21st Century Arts in Rome

to the the intimate Maggie's Cancer Care Centre

in Kirkcaldy in Fife, which was her very first building

The Iraqi-British architect was famous for creating exaggerated

curves and elongated angles, and personally was very

She once said that women are always told they won't make it.

She won the Pritzker Arhcitecture Prize, the Stirling Prize, twice,

and last year was the first woman to win the Riba Gold Award.

Julia Peyton-Jones new Zaha Hadid very well because she was a trustee

at the Serpentine Gallery. For you, of course, Zaha Hadid was a good

friend but how did you first come to work with her when she was a

trustee? Our former chairman invited her to join the board and Zaha was

famous for not getting up early. She only attended two trustee meetings

although she was very active side of them. Peter turned to me in one

meeting and asked me whether we should talk about the mention a

ball, and then we talked about charges which the board knew that I

was against -- unmentionable. She was an amazing visionary and

architect and also trustee. I asked her to do the Fed up of a temporary

shop while we were renovating the Serpentine Gallery and she arrived

with Patrik Schumacher and another member of staff and they took up so

much room there was no room for anybody else. She was the first

architect to design your annual summer pavilion. I think we can see

that now. She was the first architect, that is now an

established tradition. What did she bring to the Serpentine with that

building? At the time it was an extraordinary commission. It was

only going to be up for one night. It was to celebrate our 30th

anniversary. We asked her to design a tented structure for the same

budget as for another one and she gazed with it in the same

enthusiastic way. It was so remarkably successful that Chris

Smith, the distinguished Secretary of State for culture, media and

sport, kept it up. The last commissioner for you, the building

at the Serpentine which is only building in central London. Yes, we

decided to take over the former ammunition and thought, 1805, and it

was a very complicated process to secure the rights to do this from

the Royal Parks. We asked her to design it. She was charming to them,

I imagine? She took it on with enormous enthusiasm and she did a

visionary design. As an architect, what do you think was what made her

so special? I think her fearlessness, the fact that she had

extraordinary restless energy, the fact that everything she did was

predicated on drawing and painting, that was the heart of her practice.

And the fact that she became ever more confident, ambitious, grand and

extraordinary in the best possible way. She is built all over the

world. But for us, she was never afraid to do projects that were

small. Whilst concurrently doing the most ambitious. For you and her,

what do you think is her most loved building that she has done, beyond

the Serpentine? Two, the first is the Vitra Fire Station and the other

is the Maxxi. Maxxi in Rome. It is an extraordinary building, which is

a series of reveals. Wherever you go you have another perspective of the

building and the City. Finally, famously and very difficult for her,

Thailand pulled out of the football stadium and every country is now

going to wish they had one of the buildings. This is difficult to say

but all I can say is that we feel very privileged to have worked with

her and long may she reign. Thank you for joining us.

Another day of self-generated controversy for Donald Trump.

This time, a man who is spending millions of his own money in his bid

to be US president, but no need for a big publicity budget,

has withdrawn his proposal, made just hours ago,

that women who have abortions should face some form of punishment

When people come to write the history books about Donald Trump

and the presidency, whichever way it goes,

they may search for the origins of the idea.

As you know, we've inherited a Budget crunch from President

Well, remember when the last administration decided to invest

That was an episode of The Simpsons from the year 2000.

The writer of that episode Dan Greaney said he wrote it

because it was a vision of America going insane.

This is all you're doing, then? Oh, now I understand why my boss let me

come on this interview! I am the patsy, the fall guy! You are the one

who sets Donald Trump on this path. No, no. If you like something in the

script, I wrote it, but if you don't, it is a very collaborative

process, a lot of people involved! The show runner has the final say.

Team sport. But tell me, did Donald Trump, to your knowledge, ever see

or comment on that episode of the Simpsons? I don't think he has ever

commented on it and I certainly don't know if he's seen it. Do you

think that people laughed at Donald Trump for too long? I think

President Obama might have laughed at it for too long. It seemed to me

that at the roast about two years ago when Obama was talking and Trump

got really steamed and if there was the inception moment, that might

have been it. Let us play this at the doorstep of the president. --

lay this. The Simpsons have returned to the subject of Donald Trump since

he put his hat in the ring. As a comedy writer, Donald Trump is such

a controversialist, so is it hard as a comedy writer to best it? He has

become hard to write about. The Simpsons is a fine show -- fun show

and we want people to enjoy it and in the old days, Donald Trump was

very consistent, over the top and kind of lovable, so you could have

fun with him and even up to his announcement, going down the

escalator in this strange tableau, we were able to have an affectionate

and good mannered time with it but then he started talking. I don't

know what to do with the person he is revealing himself to be at this

point in his life, and it isn't much fun. The person he is revealing

himself to be is a person that a very substantial number of Americans

seem to identify with. This isn't a joke candidacy. Not at all. I think

Donald Trump is reflecting that there is something wrong in the

American body politic. The American people are a bit sick of what is

going on and Donald Trump is kind of what they have coughed up, you know.

That's maybe why he is orange! Well... The Simpsons have a track

record of predicting things that may happen and I wonder if you have any

plans to return to the Trump character or to allude to him in

some way in the run-up to November? You know, the show said that there

was a president Trump and we didn't say there was a president Donald

Trump. It is entirely possible that we are talking about a future Trump

presidency of perhaps a more reasonable and grounded Trump, such

as Ivanka which may not be as much of a good survey as a Donald Trump

presidency. He fails and they pick up the Mandalay to run. Is this

something that has been discussed in meetings, the idea that Ivanka may

be a possible candidate? It hasn't Yarde

it hasn't come up and we are hesitant to wait any deeper into the

subject. Our production schedule doesn't allow us to get an episode

out before he loses the election. We talk about it in the room and maybe

we will do another short promo, something like that. But I wouldn't

rule out a Trump presidency but a Donald Trump presidency is very

unlikely. So you are saying he's going to lose the presidency in your

view, but the Simpsons is a show which turned out surprises? I could

be wrong. I am Ronnie Lott -- I am wrong way lot but right now the mass

Dyer maths does not look good for him. If we go on the assumption that

the show is right, I'm going with the possibility that a different

Trump is elected, a gentler and smarter Trump, Ivanka, vote Ivanka.

Thank you for joining us. I'm afraid that's all we have time for. From

here, good night. Another cold one, certainly across

England and Wales, some frost first thing but Scotland and Northern

Ireland, the weather is changing, wet day in Northern Ireland and the

West of Scotland, creeping across. Some rain in north-west England and

Wales but many will stay dry. Far from dry in Northern Ireland,

breezy, wet and cold, the same in western Scotland. The rain getting

into the West Coast although the Moray Firth may stay dry.

Temperatures