Browse content similar to 14/04/2016. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Another example of opaque financial affairs tonight. | :00:00. | :00:00. | |
Someone who's been handsomely renumerated. | :00:07. | :00:10. | |
No, tonight we have the story of Labour's spokesman | :00:11. | :00:14. | |
That will remain between myself and... | :00:15. | :00:37. | |
We're on the Referendum Road - hearing from the people | :00:38. | :00:45. | |
Spanish, French, seem to be able do what they want to with the fishing | :00:46. | :00:50. | |
and we're not allowed to, so it is just time we came out. | :00:51. | :00:55. | |
Sexism from MPs in the parliamentary lobby. | :00:56. | :01:00. | |
Or a deeper problem in an old boys' club? | :01:01. | :01:11. | |
The innovative film director Peter Greenaway, on his new film | :01:12. | :01:16. | |
For ten days, since the Panama Papers were leaked, | :01:17. | :01:33. | |
financial morality has been top of the news. | :01:34. | :01:35. | |
The tricks of the rich have been on parade, the word "dodgy" | :01:36. | :01:38. | |
At issue, whether people manage to usurp more than their share | :01:39. | :01:43. | |
Concerns undoubtedly accentuated by the news today, | :01:44. | :01:48. | |
that BP shareholders were voting on the chief executive's | :01:49. | :01:50. | |
As Jeremy Corbyn said on Monday, "There is now one rule | :01:51. | :01:56. | |
for the super rich, and another for everyone else." | :01:57. | :01:58. | |
So what does he, and others who have been pointing fingers, | :01:59. | :02:07. | |
make of the behaviour of Labour's spokesman on trade unions? | :02:08. | :02:09. | |
He used to be general secretary of the National Union | :02:10. | :02:13. | |
Most of the union's cash then came from donations from sick, | :02:14. | :02:17. | |
Eyebrows have already been raised at the remuneration Mr Lavery | :02:18. | :02:27. | |
received, but Newsnight has learned that he was also given a generous | :02:28. | :02:30. | |
mortgage by the union, well below the market rate. | :02:31. | :02:35. | |
Mr Lavery denies any irregularity, but the accounts are opaque. | :02:36. | :02:39. | |
John Sweeney has been poring over them. | :02:40. | :02:48. | |
Back in the day the coal miners dug deep to make Britain rich. But, at a | :02:49. | :02:56. | |
price. More than 4 billion has been paid in compensation, to men who | :02:57. | :03:00. | |
suffered from lung disease, and other illnesses. | :03:01. | :03:04. | |
The national union of mineworkers helped their members get the | :03:05. | :03:08. | |
compensation, and in return, miners could tick a box. Gifting a part of | :03:09. | :03:14. | |
their money to the union. This is a story about what happened | :03:15. | :03:20. | |
with some of that money in the NUM Northumberland area. | :03:21. | :03:29. | |
That was the Labour Party is best defending the trade union movement. | :03:30. | :03:33. | |
Before Ian Lavery became an MP in 2010 he had been the General | :03:34. | :03:38. | |
Secretary of the miner's union in Northumberland for 18 years. | :03:39. | :03:44. | |
I told the common,s, I said I'm the most experienced man here, with | :03:45. | :03:51. | |
regards to the trade union bill. I have been assaulted on picket lines | :03:52. | :03:57. | |
and I have been on strike more than anybody in the Commons. He is now | :03:58. | :04:02. | |
Jeremy Corbyn's front bench spokesman on trade unions. | :04:03. | :04:08. | |
So what happened on his watch as the NUM's Northumberland area boss is | :04:09. | :04:12. | |
instructive. The first line on the graph shows the amount of money | :04:13. | :04:18. | |
spent on members' benefits from 1992 on wards, the year Lavery became | :04:19. | :04:23. | |
General Secretary, the second line, Lavery's pay. | :04:24. | :04:27. | |
In 2010, Lavery quit the union and was elected MP for Wansbeck, one of | :04:28. | :04:34. | |
the safest Labour constituencies in the country. Mr Lavery got | :04:35. | :04:38. | |
redundancy money and that feels odd because it seems as though he | :04:39. | :04:42. | |
effectively resigned to go and work in that place behind me. The dosh we | :04:43. | :04:49. | |
think ?62,000. But on top of that there is a further 58,00 pounds, | :04:50. | :04:54. | |
paid out to past General Secretary redundancy costs. -- 85,000 and | :04:55. | :04:58. | |
there is a mystery about who that is. | :04:59. | :05:04. | |
Mr Lavery started at the union in 1992. He has told us that he did | :05:05. | :05:08. | |
receive a redundancy payment in 2013. When the ?85,000 pops up on | :05:09. | :05:15. | |
the union's accounts, so on the face of it, it looks like the mystery | :05:16. | :05:21. | |
beneficiary of the mystery ?85,000 is Ian Lavery. | :05:22. | :05:27. | |
These numbers are reasonable. The argument could be made if the | :05:28. | :05:30. | |
National Union of Mineworkers Northumberland area had thousands of | :05:31. | :05:35. | |
members, but the world has moved on. All the pits are closed, the | :05:36. | :05:38. | |
industry is dead. And the union moribund. How many members has it | :05:39. | :05:46. | |
got? Just six people. Mr Lavery has certainly benefitted from the union | :05:47. | :05:48. | |
in other ways. This is his house in Ashington, | :05:49. | :05:55. | |
bought in 1994 for ?75,000. Like most people, he got a mortgage. | :05:56. | :06:01. | |
Unlike most people, the lender was not a bank but the National Union of | :06:02. | :06:06. | |
Mineworkers Northumberland area's provident and benevolent fund. | :06:07. | :06:09. | |
Newsnight has obtained these documents that show that Ian Lavery | :06:10. | :06:14. | |
got a mortgage at an exceptionally generous rate. A typical mortgage in | :06:15. | :06:21. | |
1994 attracted an interest rate of round 8%. Lavery's loan from the | :06:22. | :06:30. | |
fund was at just 3%. There is another mystery in the accounts, a | :06:31. | :06:36. | |
fund loan worth ?109,000 written off in 2007. The year when Mr Lavery | :06:37. | :06:44. | |
says his mortgage arrangement ended. Newsnight has been doing some sums. | :06:45. | :06:50. | |
?109,000 is pretty much exactly what you would expect Mr Lavery to owe | :06:51. | :06:56. | |
had he made none or virtually no remaim on his mortgage. Was the | :06:57. | :07:05. | |
109,00 pounds written off by the union actually ?109,000 owed Mr | :07:06. | :07:09. | |
Lavery. Mr Lavery says all of this is a private matter. | :07:10. | :07:13. | |
He does say that regular mortgage payments were made, but not by whom. | :07:14. | :07:21. | |
Hello. Since news might began in investigation, we have repeatedly | :07:22. | :07:26. | |
asked Mr Lavery for an interview. We went to his constituency office in | :07:27. | :07:30. | |
Northumberland. To begin with, they wouldn't reply to our e-mails. They | :07:31. | :07:34. | |
wouldn't return our phone calls, they wouldn't even open the door. | :07:35. | :07:40. | |
Eventually, we got an e-mail from Ian Lavery but there are questions | :07:41. | :07:43. | |
unanswered. So, time to catch up with him. Near Westminster. | :07:44. | :07:50. | |
John Sweeney from news might. You got the mortgage from the union. | :07:51. | :07:55. | |
Yes. Did you pay it off? The union and myself came to a financial | :07:56. | :08:02. | |
agreement in 2007, in relation to mortgage which will remain private | :08:03. | :08:05. | |
between myself and the union. That was the agreement. OK. But you were | :08:06. | :08:10. | |
the General Secretary of the union. Yes. So you are agreeing with | :08:11. | :08:14. | |
yourself, it looks as though. It looks as though you raided the | :08:15. | :08:18. | |
onion's piggy banks That is unfairment We are here to ask you a | :08:19. | :08:21. | |
question. Did you pay off your mortgage? My mortgage was paid off | :08:22. | :08:26. | |
with the National Union of Mineworkers in a financial agreement | :08:27. | :08:30. | |
which was acceptable to both parties. You are talking with | :08:31. | :08:34. | |
yourself. I was never involved in any of the negotiations at the | :08:35. | :08:37. | |
beginning of the mortgage, I was never involved with any of the | :08:38. | :08:41. | |
negotiations at the conclusion. That is absurd. You might wish to say | :08:42. | :08:46. | |
that but it isn't. It is unfair to say that, because these... Why is | :08:47. | :08:50. | |
that unfair? You were the General Secretary of the union and the union | :08:51. | :08:53. | |
gave you a mortgage and you haven't answered the question. Did you pay | :08:54. | :08:59. | |
it off? For the sake of clarity, for the sake of clarity, any business | :09:00. | :09:03. | |
done with regard to the General Secretary, I wouldn't financially | :09:04. | :09:05. | |
business I wouldn't be involved in. What I will say once again, to you, | :09:06. | :09:14. | |
that the mortgage was settled in 2007, between the trustees... Did | :09:15. | :09:20. | |
you pay it off? In 2007, between myself and the union, and that was | :09:21. | :09:24. | |
done on a private basis. You paid off the mortgage? That will remain | :09:25. | :09:30. | |
between myself and the National Union of Mineworkers. Of which you | :09:31. | :09:33. | |
were the General Secretary at the relevant time. Yes. So it looks like | :09:34. | :09:38. | |
an inside deal? Disgraceful to suggest such a thing. I have get to | :09:39. | :09:43. | |
commons, I have a meeting. I hope I have answered your questions. You | :09:44. | :09:48. | |
haven't really I hope I have been polite enough to try. You haven't | :09:49. | :09:54. | |
answer the principle question. I have spent ten minute hearse | :09:55. | :09:57. | |
answering the questions and I have e-mailed you, so thank you very | :09:58. | :10:03. | |
much. Thank you. Rightfully or wrongly, the public | :10:04. | :10:07. | |
are demanding more and more transparency from the politicians, | :10:08. | :10:10. | |
as to where they get their money from. On the question of Mr Lavery's | :10:11. | :10:16. | |
mortgage, he has been as transparent as the river behind me. | :10:17. | :10:19. | |
John Sweeney there, who worked on that with producer Ed Brown. | :10:20. | :10:23. | |
As we went to air, Labour gave us this short statement: | :10:24. | :10:29. | |
Voluntary donations made by miners all went | :10:30. | :10:31. | |
into the general fund and none went into the benevolent fund. | :10:32. | :10:40. | |
You probably remember the reform of the English NHS back in 2012. | :10:41. | :10:43. | |
A reorganisation that got rather little scrutiny at first, | :10:44. | :10:45. | |
then there was disquiet, which then turned to large scale | :10:46. | :10:48. | |
discontent, and then some redrawing of the plans. | :10:49. | :10:50. | |
Well, are we heading down a similar path now, with the reform | :10:51. | :10:57. | |
The Government's plan is to take schools out of local | :10:58. | :11:04. | |
authority control, by turning them all into academies. | :11:05. | :11:07. | |
It's had some attention, but given the magnitude | :11:08. | :11:09. | |
Yesterday the Commons debated it, at Labour's instigation, | :11:10. | :11:13. | |
and there was clearly some disquiet among Tory backbenchers. | :11:14. | :11:20. | |
...an outstanding school in every sense of the word. | :11:21. | :11:22. | |
They said to me they would not want to become an academy. | :11:23. | :11:25. | |
And what I fundamentally struggled with is a very simple point, | :11:26. | :11:29. | |
that I should go to them and say, despite the fact that your school | :11:30. | :11:32. | |
is outstanding, that all of your staff are working | :11:33. | :11:36. | |
brilliantly and delivering fantastic education, | :11:37. | :11:39. | |
that we are now going to force you to become an academy. | :11:40. | :11:41. | |
...does not allow us to draw conclusions on whether | :11:42. | :11:45. | |
academies in themselves are a positive force for change. | :11:46. | :11:49. | |
If I were to sum up the concerns expressed to me by teachers locally | :11:50. | :11:52. | |
it would be confusion, I think, as to why something | :11:53. | :11:55. | |
that is so obviously not broken needs fixing. | :11:56. | :11:59. | |
Well, the man who set in train many many reforms | :12:00. | :12:01. | |
in the Education Reform Act 1988, was Kenneth Baker. | :12:02. | :12:04. | |
Now Lord Baker, he created GCSEs, the national curriculum, | :12:05. | :12:06. | |
City Technology Colleges, and earlier vintages of academies. | :12:07. | :12:08. | |
Good evening to you. Do you support make all school academies? I support | :12:09. | :12:29. | |
them because I started them with a city technology colleges in the '80s | :12:30. | :12:33. | |
but it had to start in a gentle way, hay to final teams of people to run | :12:34. | :12:38. | |
them. Head teachers who never had to employ people before, who never had | :12:39. | :12:42. | |
a capital budget, they became managers. There is a huge difference | :12:43. | :12:47. | |
between the things you started up which were carefully calculated | :12:48. | :12:51. | |
schools designed and organised and in ways of doing things and taking | :12:52. | :12:56. | |
every school and say you are an academy. Since I left, the history | :12:57. | :13:01. | |
was by 2009 when the coalition started they there were about 200 | :13:02. | :13:06. | |
academy, there are 4700, a huge change, absolutely huge change, | :13:07. | :13:09. | |
which has happened naturally, quite naturally and I think that is the | :13:10. | :13:14. | |
best way to proceed frankly. Rather than forcing? Yes, if one wants to | :13:15. | :13:20. | |
get to the stage of having them all out coax them along the road. There | :13:21. | :13:25. | |
are authorities like Gloucester where all the schools are academies | :13:26. | :13:28. | |
and I think Southwark but let them do it at their pace rather than | :13:29. | :13:32. | |
anything else. So the Government are pushing it faster or too fast or too | :13:33. | :13:37. | |
hard for your liking. Yes, I think eyou can, with a well managed | :13:38. | :13:40. | |
academy you can get better results if it is really well managed, but | :13:41. | :13:43. | |
not even is well managed. The idea is to put them into groups? | :13:44. | :13:56. | |
Multi-Academy trusts? You've got that right, yes. These are ten or 15 | :13:57. | :14:04. | |
age? Yes, that sort of size. Several existing the moment but if they're | :14:05. | :14:08. | |
going to do all the schools, they will need something like 2000 | :14:09. | :14:11. | |
multi-Academy trusts and there are not anything like that number. You | :14:12. | :14:20. | |
are running some of these, UTCs, that is something like a trust? | :14:21. | :14:25. | |
University technical colleges, yes. They are successful. They take | :14:26. | :14:31. | |
youngsters from 14-18 and they have very practical courses. In the week | :14:32. | :14:36. | |
they are making things. How easy is it to build a chain like the one | :14:37. | :14:40. | |
you're running, a good chain, and can you do it in the course of safe | :14:41. | :14:48. | |
three-year is? One of the best is Phil Paris, he has got 30 schools, | :14:49. | :14:53. | |
and he started 30 years ago. It takes a long time. To have school | :14:54. | :15:03. | |
managers, ex-heads and people who understand the arcane world of | :15:04. | :15:06. | |
school finance. You introduced the national curriculum and academies | :15:07. | :15:11. | |
don't have to do it, so it is just unravelling the national curriculum? | :15:12. | :15:18. | |
If I were now dealing the cards, I would stop the national curriculum | :15:19. | :15:22. | |
at 14 and at 14 have a series of technical colleges. This is what | :15:23. | :15:26. | |
Austria does and it has the lowest level of youth unemployment. In a | :15:27. | :15:30. | |
way, the colleges I'm starting fit into that category. They are 14-18. | :15:31. | :15:36. | |
At 14, youngsters know where their interests lie will stop our | :15:37. | :15:39. | |
youngsters make things with their hands. What is so interesting, and | :15:40. | :15:44. | |
you have been banging on about this for decades, what is so interesting | :15:45. | :15:50. | |
is that the whole thrust is to get book learning back into classrooms, | :15:51. | :15:54. | |
isn't it? That's what conservative educators believe. I think that's a | :15:55. | :15:58. | |
huge mistake. You need a knowledge economy but in itself that is not | :15:59. | :16:03. | |
enough. You need practical application of knowledge. If there | :16:04. | :16:06. | |
is a youngster at one of our colleges making the chassis of a car | :16:07. | :16:10. | |
and rounded bonnets and so on, doing that he will understand the | :16:11. | :16:14. | |
importance of trigonometry. Not just in book learning. I believe in | :16:15. | :16:21. | |
learning as well as studying. You are an educational radical! You can | :16:22. | :16:27. | |
call me that, but I think our heads in each UTC has a target, when the | :16:28. | :16:33. | |
student is leaving at 16 or 18, no one should join the ranks of the | :16:34. | :16:37. | |
unemployed and we are meeting that. Our youngsters become apprentices, | :16:38. | :16:41. | |
they get jobs or they join universities. There are other things | :16:42. | :16:44. | |
you disagree with the government on in this programme. By taking out the | :16:45. | :16:50. | |
LEAs, which you're comfortable with, you don't have local accountability. | :16:51. | :16:57. | |
Have they cracked that now because you've removed it? Some of the | :16:58. | :17:02. | |
academies do have local accountability, they are very close | :17:03. | :17:07. | |
to their communities. Our youngsters are close to our communities. We | :17:08. | :17:13. | |
have one Coventry, they want another one in Solihull. This comes from the | :17:14. | :17:18. | |
requirements of the local communities. Those ones often have | :17:19. | :17:23. | |
parents as governors and they want to take that out. I'm fully in | :17:24. | :17:29. | |
favour of keeping parent governors. It sounds like you are completely at | :17:30. | :17:33. | |
odds with them on almost every aspect! No, the general thrust is | :17:34. | :17:37. | |
right, but parent governors are useful people and they can be a | :17:38. | :17:42. | |
contact for people in the school and we have parent governors at our | :17:43. | :17:46. | |
university technical colleges. We also have business people. We have | :17:47. | :17:50. | |
local business people coming in and teaching the youngsters on projects, | :17:51. | :17:55. | |
and therefore our youngsters get used to teamwork, problem-solving. | :17:56. | :17:59. | |
They becoming playable. Lovely to talk to you. -- they become | :18:00. | :18:00. | |
employable. Some have called today the first day | :18:01. | :18:05. | |
of the referendum campaign. It may not feel that way to you, | :18:06. | :18:08. | |
or me or anyone, but it's all to do with the official designations | :18:09. | :18:12. | |
yesterday of the groups who'll be To mark this special moment, | :18:13. | :18:14. | |
we're launching our new series in which we go round the country | :18:15. | :18:20. | |
and hear from voters about how We've been planning it for weeks, | :18:21. | :18:23. | |
and yet we were still debating what to call this | :18:24. | :18:27. | |
series this afternoon. EU and Yours, Knowing Me, | :18:28. | :18:29. | |
Knowing EU and many other variants We did fix on a name, | :18:30. | :18:33. | |
and to start us off Katie Razall has At new linen fish company, even at | :18:34. | :18:57. | |
dawn some truths are university acknowledged. This is your business, | :18:58. | :19:01. | |
it is fish, I'm guessing you of... Here they know that this is is | :19:02. | :19:12. | |
paying more for fish. But Europeans eat more fish than we do. A place | :19:13. | :19:17. | |
for everything and everything must be in its place. They would feel | :19:18. | :19:26. | |
they would be better off out of the EU. The Spanish and the French can | :19:27. | :19:30. | |
do whatever they want and we are not allowed to. It's time to leave. It | :19:31. | :19:38. | |
could still be bigger if we could employ more people and it would be | :19:39. | :19:44. | |
good for places like this. 44 years in the job. With the catch loaded in | :19:45. | :19:51. | |
the van, Newsnight hitched a ride with Newlyn fish company's | :19:52. | :19:56. | |
door-to-door salesman Tony. This is the luxury of the job, we get to see | :19:57. | :20:00. | |
some beautiful views every single day. I will be voting to come out. | :20:01. | :20:05. | |
The farming has gone downhill, the fishing has gone downhill, there is | :20:06. | :20:10. | |
no more mining. But for some of Tony's customers, the referendum is | :20:11. | :20:13. | |
less cut and dry. I would like some cod please. This loyal customer buys | :20:14. | :20:20. | |
Tony's fish but not his arguments. I would vote to stay in. It's a worry | :20:21. | :20:30. | |
knowing what it's going to do to the economy, for our children. I think | :20:31. | :20:35. | |
it would be a period of incredible flux. | :20:36. | :20:40. | |
I call on about 150 customers today. Most of them say can I have the | :20:41. | :20:47. | |
usual please? Luckily I know what the usual is! In general I think we | :20:48. | :20:52. | |
want to get out of it. So you will vote that way? Yes, Tony will be | :20:53. | :21:00. | |
happy! There is real poverty in Cornwall. Because the county's GDP | :21:01. | :21:05. | |
is well below the EU average, European money has poured in, | :21:06. | :21:11. | |
funding airports, superfast broadband. Between 2000 and 2014, | :21:12. | :21:19. | |
the EU invested almost ?900 million in Cornwall and the Isles of Scilly. | :21:20. | :21:25. | |
Another 480 million or so is allocated up to 2020. But it doesn't | :21:26. | :21:28. | |
always buy them appreciation. Little and large. I will have you know I'm | :21:29. | :21:35. | |
the tallest in my family! I don't know if I never met anyone as tall | :21:36. | :21:40. | |
as you. I have a nephew in Canada who is seven foot one. I'm 6-foot | :21:41. | :21:48. | |
eight. My initial reaction was get out. Because I'm thinking nationally | :21:49. | :21:53. | |
across the country, is it actually worked while staying in? I'm still | :21:54. | :21:57. | |
not certain. It is this thing, there are too many questions. Where in the | :21:58. | :22:04. | |
dark. It was time to bid farewell to Tony. Round the corner from his fish | :22:05. | :22:09. | |
round but unlikely to be regulars, Penzance's estate, designated the | :22:10. | :22:15. | |
most deprived area in Cornwall, poorer than parts of Poland and | :22:16. | :22:19. | |
Lithuania. The charity working out of the community centre has had a | :22:20. | :22:22. | |
little money from the EU's social fund. This is our signature Sri | :22:23. | :22:30. | |
Lankan hotpot! Every Thursday they offer a free lunch to those in need. | :22:31. | :22:36. | |
Welcome, would you like some lunch? They invited me to join them. Since | :22:37. | :22:42. | |
Brian Collett left the Navy, life has been tough. Where are you living | :22:43. | :22:45. | |
at the moment, have you got somewhere to live? No. Well, I've | :22:46. | :22:52. | |
got a tent. A two-man tent. So you're sleeping in a tent somewhere | :22:53. | :22:57. | |
around Penzance? Yes. In a way I suppose a tent is better than a | :22:58. | :23:02. | |
doorway, yeah. Living around here especially is just a dead end and as | :23:03. | :23:06. | |
you said, they pumped a lot of money into Cornwall and I've not even | :23:07. | :23:11. | |
heard of any money being put into Cornwall. I do know where the money | :23:12. | :23:15. | |
from the EU has gone but it has certainly not come here. I don't | :23:16. | :23:21. | |
want to leave the EU. I think this country would be screwed if we left | :23:22. | :23:24. | |
the EU. We've got no industry any more. We seem to be doing better | :23:25. | :23:30. | |
being in the EU than without it. I know loads of farmers here who would | :23:31. | :23:37. | |
be screwed without their EU funding. Does anyone want to leave the EU? No | :23:38. | :23:40. | |
one! LAUGHTER | :23:41. | :23:44. | |
Are you able to vote? Do you think you will? Without a fixed address, | :23:45. | :23:50. | |
you don't get anything coming through the post. If I was able to | :23:51. | :23:57. | |
vote, I would vote to stay in because it's a really romantic idea. | :23:58. | :24:03. | |
But you know where your bread is buttered. Remain as will take | :24:04. | :24:09. | |
comfort from those sentiments. Despite Cornwall receiving more | :24:10. | :24:14. | |
money for each of its inhabitants than anywhere else in England, there | :24:15. | :24:18. | |
has been a lot of talk that it is veering Eurosceptic head of the | :24:19. | :24:25. | |
referendum. Carly's Organics is one of 25,000 British businesses to have | :24:26. | :24:27. | |
got EU help. This pan-European enterprise | :24:28. | :24:40. | |
received ?300,000 from the EU's regional development fund to build a | :24:41. | :24:43. | |
new factory and help boost the local economy. It has enabled the business | :24:44. | :24:48. | |
to grow in terms of sales, which in turn has meant that we can employ | :24:49. | :24:52. | |
more people. We now employ nine, where we had three before, in Truro. | :24:53. | :24:57. | |
It's a significant upturn on the number of hours's work, which has | :24:58. | :25:03. | |
got to be a good thing for COBOL. Newsnight's arrival coincided with | :25:04. | :25:06. | |
the processing of some very un-European Brazil nuts all the way | :25:07. | :25:12. | |
from Bolivia. -- for Cornwall. Even here in a place that has benefited | :25:13. | :25:17. | |
from European support, attitudes as well as ingredients are mixed. I | :25:18. | :25:25. | |
think it's rather churlish to have this great funding and then say | :25:26. | :25:31. | |
thank you very much, we opt out. A bit ungrateful? Well, it would feel | :25:32. | :25:37. | |
like that. It's more than that, my inclination, it may or may not be a | :25:38. | :25:45. | |
good thing, but so much of our security depends on joining | :25:46. | :25:49. | |
together. The funding has obviously been incredibly beneficial for us as | :25:50. | :25:54. | |
a company. We have been able to take the business to where it is. It | :25:55. | :26:04. | |
doesn't necessarily... I'm still undecided on that. My heart of | :26:05. | :26:12. | |
hearts, leaving would be a good option as far as being nostalgic and | :26:13. | :26:17. | |
thinking about Britain being great and thinking about the great | :26:18. | :26:20. | |
industries we want to have in our country. And bringing independence | :26:21. | :26:25. | |
to the country. I don't know, I really don't know. I think that the | :26:26. | :26:28. | |
fact that this factory has been lucky enough to be given European | :26:29. | :26:33. | |
funding is great. We've employed more people, and hopefully we are | :26:34. | :26:38. | |
driving more money through Cornwall and then up through the country... | :26:39. | :26:46. | |
But that doesn't make you think you're definitely going to vote to | :26:47. | :26:52. | |
stay in? No, not at all. Perhaps the last word should be in Cornish. As | :26:53. | :26:56. | |
Cornish speakers gathered for a weekend of immersion in a language | :26:57. | :27:05. | |
officially recognised as a minority tongue. I wondered if you knew if | :27:06. | :27:12. | |
there was a word in Cornish for Brexit? | :27:13. | :27:15. | |
LAUGHTER What about remain? | :27:16. | :27:24. | |
They sang us out, Celts first and Europhiles in the main, many feel a | :27:25. | :27:33. | |
Brexit would have an adverse impact on the land they love. But some of | :27:34. | :27:39. | |
their -- many of their Cornish neighbours may not be in tune with | :27:40. | :27:40. | |
that sentiment. A female political correspondent | :27:41. | :27:44. | |
was referred to as "totty" What he apparently said | :27:45. | :27:46. | |
to the journalist, "I want She is Isabel Hardman, | :27:47. | :27:50. | |
who is a frequent contributor to this programme, and her response | :27:51. | :27:55. | |
was to complain But not everyone thinks | :27:56. | :27:57. | |
the act was crime enough Another female journalist, | :27:58. | :28:01. | |
Isabel Oakeshott, wrote in the Mail, "There is a case to be argued | :28:02. | :28:06. | |
that she should have been pleased. After all, he expressed | :28:07. | :28:09. | |
the inclination to talk to her, over and above whoever | :28:10. | :28:12. | |
else was there". It raises the question about the | :28:13. | :28:25. | |
frictions of social change are crossed generations. | :28:26. | :28:26. | |
Isabel Oakeshott is with me now, as is the columnist | :28:27. | :28:29. | |
Did you really mean it when owe say possibly she should have been | :28:30. | :28:40. | |
pleased at being called totty? I was saying as a political reporter you | :28:41. | :28:44. | |
have to have a pretty thick skin. Politics is a rough old game and | :28:45. | :28:48. | |
politics and journalism they are both rough old games an our bids is | :28:49. | :28:53. | |
getting story, that is always the focus of any intr action I am having | :28:54. | :28:58. | |
at work. -- interaction. Personally I am prepared to put up with quite a | :28:59. | :29:03. | |
lot in the pursuit of the story and being called totty doesn't register | :29:04. | :29:07. | |
for me on the Richter Scale of offensive. What have you had to put | :29:08. | :29:13. | |
up with? All sorts over the year, I gave an example in the piece I wrote | :29:14. | :29:19. | |
for the Mail today of a senior MP, a Knight of the Realm. I named him, | :29:20. | :29:23. | |
Sir Alan Duncan happens to be gay who pinched my bottom the other day. | :29:24. | :29:27. | |
I was surprised by I didn't take offence at it. I thought this was | :29:28. | :29:33. | |
just, you know, one of those things. Jenni, first of all should she have | :29:34. | :29:37. | |
taken offence at Alan Duncan pinching her bottom? That is its | :29:38. | :29:43. | |
ball's choice. The more important -- Isobel's choice. The term used to | :29:44. | :29:49. | |
Isabel Hardman demeaned her, didn't take her seriously, she is an | :29:50. | :29:53. | |
outstanding political journalist, she was political journalist of the | :29:54. | :29:58. | |
year, she is a credible person, and what she was taking offence at was | :29:59. | :30:02. | |
that somebody deciding to treat her in a demeaning fashion, so treating | :30:03. | :30:06. | |
her less seriously than men round her, if you just ignore this, as the | :30:07. | :30:11. | |
other Isobel advocates then nothing change, you would never have had a | :30:12. | :30:14. | |
civil rights movement in America if you said you know black women | :30:15. | :30:18. | |
shouldn't mind being sent to the back of the bus, you wouldn't have | :30:19. | :30:22. | |
had gay right's movement if gays hadn't objected to being called | :30:23. | :30:27. | |
faggots. You only have to put into that sentence I want to talk to the | :30:28. | :30:32. | |
N word to see that kind of language says you are less a person and it is | :30:33. | :30:38. | |
right that we should start demanding in twaun 15 that language isn't | :30:39. | :30:45. | |
accepting. Or 2016 even. Yes. I disagree about the comparisons you | :30:46. | :30:48. | |
make, the heart of the matter is this, think, when the gentleman | :30:49. | :30:53. | |
concerned used the word totty he meant it, however clumsily, he meant | :30:54. | :30:58. | |
it as a compliment, the other words you use were clearly der rowing tri. | :30:59. | :31:04. | |
It is also der rowing tri, it says I am not treating you as a political | :31:05. | :31:09. | |
journalist, I am talking to you in sexual term, unless you acts that | :31:10. | :31:12. | |
women do not get taken seriously for we know that because we had a | :31:13. | :31:17. | |
century behind us of women being treated like that, going through the | :31:18. | :31:22. | |
'50s and nothing changed until women started saying don't treat us that | :31:23. | :31:26. | |
way. To be clear, you made various suggestions of how you might behave | :31:27. | :31:30. | |
in that way and one was she could have written a note to him. Yes Or | :31:31. | :31:35. | |
could have said something to him personally. Am I assuming that | :31:36. | :31:39. | |
wouldn't work for you? She has to make an issue and a public issue, | :31:40. | :31:44. | |
because otherwise it doesn't tell everybody else. That is the point. | :31:45. | :31:47. | |
The point is there is still an incredible amount of sexism going | :31:48. | :31:51. | |
on. I know people, women working in offices now who are subjected to | :31:52. | :31:55. | |
something much worse, but they are unable to talk about because they | :31:56. | :32:00. | |
are powerless. If they alienate the men working with them they know that | :32:01. | :32:04. | |
will be punished. Isobel was in the position of being strong enough and | :32:05. | :32:07. | |
in a strong enough position to be able to call this out. It doesn't | :32:08. | :32:11. | |
rebound on her personally and has the advantage that it is public | :32:12. | :32:15. | |
issue, other men in the Commons won't say it to her, and won't say | :32:16. | :32:19. | |
it to other journalist, and everybody is thinking about this | :32:20. | :32:23. | |
issue now. A private note would have accomplished nothing in the matter | :32:24. | :32:27. | |
of social change. As far as I am concerned, I am there to report a | :32:28. | :32:31. | |
stories, I am a political commentator, I don't work for the | :32:32. | :32:37. | |
Fawcett Society, I am not a campaigner. Women are not treated | :32:38. | :32:42. | |
equally to men, is that not a concern to you. I have suffered sex | :32:43. | :32:47. | |
criminal on many level, much of it trivial. You roll with the punch, | :32:48. | :32:52. | |
the problem is, in no way do icon done sex enrichment. You are with | :32:53. | :32:57. | |
this. If you start making an enormous fuss about very small | :32:58. | :33:00. | |
things, then you would never have time to do your job, you would be be | :33:01. | :33:09. | |
going off whiting to the whips. It wasn't an enormous fuss, she didn't | :33:10. | :33:13. | |
name the MP, she said this has happened I think it is unacceptable | :33:14. | :33:18. | |
and she reported this person to the whips. It couldn't have been handled | :33:19. | :33:23. | |
better. I have extreme respect for Isabel Hardman, she is a colleague, | :33:24. | :33:27. | |
she knew I was going to write this, we discussed it. But the inevitable | :33:28. | :33:33. | |
consequence she well knew about tweeting about it was there was | :33:34. | :33:37. | |
going to be a fire storm. Can I add something important. One very brief | :33:38. | :33:42. | |
point. I watched a speech by Martin Luther King who explained why it was | :33:43. | :33:46. | |
important that words like neck row should no longer be used he said you | :33:47. | :33:52. | |
start with behavioural change. Then that changes attitudes, and in the | :33:53. | :33:57. | |
end it changes men's minds, that kind of sexism is what means that | :33:58. | :34:02. | |
women don't get taken seriously. I say choose your battles. We leave it | :34:03. | :34:05. | |
there. She chose it well. Fans of the film director | :34:06. | :34:08. | |
Peter Greenaway will not be disappointed by his new movie, | :34:09. | :34:10. | |
which opens in art house It's every bit as visually lush | :34:11. | :34:13. | |
as Greenaway's other films - such as The Cook, the Thief, | :34:14. | :34:16. | |
His wife and Her Lover. And in the Greenaway | :34:17. | :34:19. | |
style, very physical. By which I mean there are explicit | :34:20. | :34:21. | |
depictions of nakedness, As well as anal sex of a kind | :34:22. | :34:23. | |
you don't normally see on screen, unless you venture into the more | :34:24. | :34:27. | |
obscure parts of Tumblr. The film is about the giant | :34:28. | :34:30. | |
of Soviet film-making, Sergei Eisenstein, a ten day visit | :34:31. | :34:32. | |
he made to the Mexican Sergei Eisenstein was | :34:33. | :34:35. | |
one of the creators The 1925 silent epic | :34:36. | :34:52. | |
Battleship Potemkin always cited as one of the most important | :34:53. | :34:56. | |
movies ever made. This scene on the Odessa steps one | :34:57. | :35:05. | |
of the most famous in film. Eisenstein himself had a turbulent | :35:06. | :35:08. | |
career, sometimes in - His reputation outside Russia | :35:09. | :35:10. | |
took him to Hollywood, He did team up with the left-leaning | :35:11. | :35:23. | |
writer Upton Sinclair, who helped finance some of his work, | :35:24. | :35:27. | |
including a trip to Mexico, in which he burned through cash, | :35:28. | :35:32. | |
produced miles of film, and yet which didn't result | :35:33. | :35:34. | |
in a marketable product. Peter Greenaway's film focusses | :35:35. | :35:36. | |
on ten days in Mexico and a gay relationship between Eisenstein | :35:37. | :35:39. | |
and his Mexican minder. Well, Peter Greenaway is with us, | :35:40. | :36:00. | |
good evening. So where does Eisenstein rank in your Pantheon of | :36:01. | :36:06. | |
great, of the film world? Well, we haven't had a lot of cinema, it has | :36:07. | :36:11. | |
only been going 120 years so maybe we shouldn't be churlish but I think | :36:12. | :36:16. | |
probably, you know, in terms of real visionary film-makers there have | :36:17. | :36:19. | |
been very few. You can count them on the fingers of two hands, I think. I | :36:20. | :36:25. | |
would rate Eisenstein right at the top of that list. It helped of | :36:26. | :36:31. | |
course, that he is working in the 1920s and people were saying what is | :36:32. | :36:36. | |
cinema? They are finding out the vocabulary, he was not particularly | :36:37. | :36:41. | |
surprise, surprise really so I suppose politically committed. He is | :36:42. | :36:44. | |
nicely ironic about everything that is happening. He has had some | :36:45. | :36:48. | |
experience in the theatre, and he has made one, I think, masterpiece | :36:49. | :36:53. | |
called Strike, a piece of propaganda. That was the first one? | :36:54. | :36:59. | |
Yes. And he made it when he was 26, and it is extraordinary, that such | :37:00. | :37:02. | |
an amazing film, which I would say was one of the really first, you | :37:03. | :37:09. | |
know successful cinematic products it is amazing... How annoying! You | :37:10. | :37:17. | |
have taken this ten day period, ten days in the making of and he has | :37:18. | :37:22. | |
this favour with his minder, how real is that story? Is that loosely | :37:23. | :37:26. | |
based on true facts or is this inspired by some events that you | :37:27. | :37:32. | |
possibly occurred? You sound as though you are doubting me already. | :37:33. | :37:36. | |
I can show you the archivele material. He had this devoted | :37:37. | :37:43. | |
secretary back in Moscow, and she was certainly in love with him, but | :37:44. | :37:49. | |
he did not return that affection but they had an intimate correspondence. | :37:50. | :37:53. | |
It is all there in an archive, in Moscow, I can produce the archive | :37:54. | :38:00. | |
and I can say that it is not a Peter Greenaway fibbingion. The Russians | :38:01. | :38:05. | |
-- fiction. The Russians don't like it, he is a Russian hero, they don't | :38:06. | :38:09. | |
like the fact you have made him gay. Well, there is a feeling, I sup | :38:10. | :38:14. | |
poets, I wouldn't say I have great friend in Russia but lots of | :38:15. | :38:19. | |
acquaintances and the average Russian are not phased by this | :38:20. | :38:24. | |
homophobia thing, I think, we regard it as a piece of political | :38:25. | :38:29. | |
gesturing, to demonise the west. -- fazed. I think also, maybe there are | :38:30. | :38:35. | |
other ways I have offended, after all, I haven't put a film, I haven't | :38:36. | :38:41. | |
put the film together about Eisenstein in Russia but outside | :38:42. | :38:44. | |
Russia. We haven't, one would imagine it would be sensible and | :38:45. | :38:47. | |
that is what we tried for, to get a Russian actor to play it. So I | :38:48. | :38:52. | |
didn't do too well there. On these three counts for a time I was | :38:53. | :38:56. | |
unpopular. Let us talk about film. You have said some interesting | :38:57. | :39:00. | |
things about film. You think stories are not that important. It is all | :39:01. | :39:05. | |
about the visual imagery, you are a painter by trade. By training, from | :39:06. | :39:10. | |
a very early age, about 13 or 14, I wished to have had a career as a | :39:11. | :39:17. | |
paint e still hoping for it! But you know, text has so many ways in which | :39:18. | :39:24. | |
to purvey its meaning, 8,000 years of lyric poetry, 350 years of the | :39:25. | :39:29. | |
novel. The theatre hands its meaning down in text and not in image, so | :39:30. | :39:35. | |
let us really sigh if we can create a cinema that is really all powerful | :39:36. | :39:39. | |
and depend very largely on image, not on text, because you know, | :39:40. | :39:43. | |
cinema is meant to be about picture but we have a text based medium. | :39:44. | :39:49. | |
Every film you have seen started its life as text I can be certain. You | :39:50. | :39:55. | |
can say we haven't seen cinema, we have seen 120 years illustrated | :39:56. | :39:58. | |
literature. ? Before we let you go, the big issue here, you live in | :39:59. | :40:02. | |
Amsterdam, the big issue is our relationship with Europe. I don't | :40:03. | :40:06. | |
know if you get a vote, have you been in Amsterdam...? I still have a | :40:07. | :40:11. | |
vote, I have to say I don't make great use of, here in Great Britain. | :40:12. | :40:16. | |
But file, you know I feel I have, a live in Amsterdam. I feel like a | :40:17. | :40:21. | |
good European? Is that a cliche. I am happy with that. I think it | :40:22. | :40:25. | |
regret ful there are plans for Great Britain to leave the European | :40:26. | :40:30. | |
community. And cultural link sthrrks a film industry thing that would | :40:31. | :40:35. | |
say, you know, like the farmers and fishermen have their take? There is | :40:36. | :40:39. | |
a Dutch film industry, and in its own circumstances it is, you know it | :40:40. | :40:44. | |
is followed and it is enthusiastic, I don't think we can say that | :40:45. | :40:48. | |
Holland is a film-making industry country, but they do have, I mean | :40:49. | :40:53. | |
think of the painter, you know... The visual imagery again. It is, you | :40:54. | :40:59. | |
know, if you are fascinated by visual literacy, they can give it | :41:00. | :41:06. | |
broigle and Vermeer and Van Gogh, the list is endless. And three | :41:07. | :41:08. | |
cheers for them. Peter Greenaway. Thank you. | :41:09. | :41:14. | |
That's just about it for tonight where, in Porthcawl, | :41:15. | :41:16. | |
a pair of benches sit besides one of the most beautiful | :41:17. | :41:18. | |
But instead of facing the glorious sea, Bridgend Council officials | :41:19. | :41:22. | |
In defence of this rather odd placement, tourism chiefs christened | :41:23. | :41:25. | |
the benches as Britian's first dedicated "selfie benches". | :41:26. | :41:27. | |
So we asked local residents to take a seat and send | :41:28. | :41:30. | |
MUSIC: She's Built The Wrong Way Round" by Hugh Cornwall. | :41:31. | :42:26. | |
Bo Thursday brought us a day of sunshine and scattered showers and | :42:27. | :42:33. | |
we will see further heavy downpours at times in the south. The odd | :42:34. | :42:37. | |
rumble of thunder, further knot o for Scotland and Northern Ireland a | :42:38. | :42:41. | |
wetter front makes its way south, by the afternoon a return to sunshine | :42:42. | :42:45. | |
but chilly conditions in Northern Ireland. Some | :42:46. | :42:46. |