Browse content similar to 28/04/2016. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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The Labour leader says it's business as usual. | :00:10. | :00:13. | |
That was Hitler's policy when he first came into power. I think you | :00:14. | :00:23. | |
have lost, Mr Livingstone. All of this is toxic. | :00:24. | :00:26. | |
Bradford is the city in the eye of the Labour storm after MP | :00:27. | :00:32. | |
Naz Shah was suspended over anti-Semitic tweets. | :00:33. | :00:34. | |
So what does her community make of the row? | :00:35. | :00:39. | |
The position she is in, it is disgusting what she said. | :00:40. | :00:42. | |
Because I don't blame all Israelis and all Jews for what is going | :00:43. | :00:46. | |
The Energy Minister tells us why she believes a Brexit | :00:47. | :00:53. | |
The playwright Michael Morpurgo tells us why he's not so sure. | :00:54. | :01:00. | |
We are not a world power as we once were. | :01:01. | :01:03. | |
We are a significant country in Europe. | :01:04. | :01:06. | |
Everyone seems to think that we're not in Europe. | :01:07. | :01:09. | |
We're in Europe, whether we like it or not. | :01:10. | :01:11. | |
You cannot move the country towards America. | :01:12. | :01:14. | |
And a very special performance to mark International Jazz Day. | :01:15. | :01:16. | |
"Much of the criticism about crisis in the party comes from those | :01:17. | :01:37. | |
who are nervous of the strength of the Labour Party | :01:38. | :01:39. | |
Those words were the Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn's considered response | :01:40. | :01:45. | |
to the row over anti-semitism that led him to suspend his close friend | :01:46. | :01:48. | |
Ken Livingstone from the party today after he invoked Adolf Hitler | :01:49. | :01:51. | |
as an early advocate of Zionism - a remark that led to a huge face | :01:52. | :01:55. | |
to face row with the Labour MP John Mann, who accused him | :01:56. | :01:58. | |
But Jeremy Corbyn's "crisis, what crisis" suggests that he views | :01:59. | :02:08. | |
the row over anti-semitism more as an attack on his leadership | :02:09. | :02:10. | |
Here is John Swinney. All I wanted to do was get on with some | :02:11. | :02:26. | |
gardening. But it was not to be. Time to apologise? Why are you being | :02:27. | :02:34. | |
told to apologise? Why have you brought Adolf Hitler into it? Why is | :02:35. | :02:39. | |
he a vote winner? How on earth did that happen? Earlier on the | :02:40. | :02:43. | |
breakfast show, when asked about internet posts by the now suspended | :02:44. | :02:50. | |
Labour MP Naz Shah... She talked about relocating Israel to America, | :02:51. | :02:54. | |
she talked about what Hitler did being legal and she talked about the | :02:55. | :03:03. | |
Jews rallying, not using the word is released... That was not | :03:04. | :03:08. | |
anti-Semitic? It was not, whenever Hitler won the election in 1932, his | :03:09. | :03:13. | |
policy was that Jews should be moved to Israel, he was supporting | :03:14. | :03:17. | |
Zionism. That was the breakfast show. By 11 o'clock, who was heading | :03:18. | :03:23. | |
for the studios at Westminster. On the way, who did he meet but a | :03:24. | :03:29. | |
Labour comrades. John Mann, MP. You are a Nazi apologist. Rewriting | :03:30. | :03:37. | |
history... By now, Sadiq Khan, the Labour candidate for his old job, | :03:38. | :03:41. | |
Mayor of London, had called for his suspension. If you read Mein | :03:42. | :03:48. | |
Kampf... When was that written? About 1924. That is anti-Semitic. | :03:49. | :03:55. | |
And outrageous, when he wrote that back then, why bring up this | :03:56. | :04:01. | |
distinction between him? This is toxic, isn't it? Journalists should | :04:02. | :04:07. | |
not ask those questions if you do not want me to answer them. All I | :04:08. | :04:12. | |
wanted to do was some gardening but because a journalist asked me the | :04:13. | :04:17. | |
question, I answered it... Some Labour MPs would have loved it if | :04:18. | :04:19. | |
you stayed and did your gardening. Do you think you should stand down | :04:20. | :04:24. | |
and leave the Labour Party to get on with their election that having this | :04:25. | :04:28. | |
weird argument about Adolf Hitler being a Zionist? We are above all of | :04:29. | :04:36. | |
these issues... Almost lost in all of this was another comment by Ken | :04:37. | :04:42. | |
Livingstone in that interview. He suggested I distinction between | :04:43. | :04:47. | |
anti-Semitism and racism. I lunchtime was the news that Ken | :04:48. | :04:50. | |
Livingstone was toast, or at least suspended from the party. Labour | :04:51. | :04:55. | |
suspensions over accusations of anti-Semitism these days are coming | :04:56. | :05:01. | |
right London buses. All at once. But Ken Livingstone is not anybody, he | :05:02. | :05:05. | |
scored the Jeremy Corbyn project going way back. Here he is with Hugo | :05:06. | :05:13. | |
Chavez in happier times. This afternoon, this from the leader. | :05:14. | :05:19. | |
Party membership is as big as it has been in my lifetime, 400,000 | :05:20. | :05:23. | |
individual members, 100,000 affiliated supporters, 3 million | :05:24. | :05:28. | |
affiliated trade union members. It is a very big organisation and I | :05:29. | :05:32. | |
suspect that much of this criticism that you say about crisis in the | :05:33. | :05:36. | |
party comes from those who are nervous about the strength of the | :05:37. | :05:39. | |
Labour Party at a local level. Not everyone is convinced. Mr Corbyn | :05:40. | :05:44. | |
said crisis, what crisis? And this quote comes from those who are | :05:45. | :05:49. | |
nervous about the strength of the Labour Party at a local level. This | :05:50. | :05:56. | |
is about anti-Semitism, the Labour Party has always stood against | :05:57. | :06:00. | |
discrimination and racism and we are falling short of those principles | :06:01. | :06:05. | |
and ideals. In seven days, much of Britain goes to the polls. In | :06:06. | :06:09. | |
London, all addicts is happening in an extraordinary atmosphere. Labour | :06:10. | :06:13. | |
has descended into a catastrophic rise over anti-Semitism. Meanwhile, | :06:14. | :06:19. | |
the Conservatives are accused of stigmatising Labour's candidate, | :06:20. | :06:23. | |
said it can, for being who he is. For the first time in decades, the | :06:24. | :06:29. | |
politics of religion and identity are at play. | :06:30. | :06:33. | |
Well, we're joined now from Leeds by Jon Trickett, | :06:34. | :06:35. | |
Shadow Local Government Secretary and close friend of Jeremy Corbyn. | :06:36. | :06:38. | |
Good evening. You have been a member of the party for almost 50 years, | :06:39. | :06:47. | |
can you remember any time when Bob Dudley anti-Semitic remarks were | :06:48. | :06:51. | |
made by Labour MPs? Know, and this is not acceptable, I was a victim | :06:52. | :06:57. | |
myself of an anti-Semitic attack last year and I went to court and | :06:58. | :07:00. | |
the man involved was found guilty and I was absolutely astonished. | :07:01. | :07:06. | |
That that happened on the streets of Britain. And it is equally appalling | :07:07. | :07:10. | |
if anybody expresses any view inside the Labour Party which has a long | :07:11. | :07:16. | |
record of fighting racism and fighting anti-Semitism and we will | :07:17. | :07:23. | |
continue to strongly play the argument against any form of racism. | :07:24. | :07:30. | |
Let us clarify some points. One what is anti-Semitism and what is | :07:31. | :07:35. | |
anti-Israel. Ken Livingstone today, is it acceptable for him to say that | :07:36. | :07:39. | |
Hitler was a supporter of Zionism? I did not hear him in that interview | :07:40. | :07:45. | |
but the truth is, the bits that I have seen caused me to feel very | :07:46. | :07:51. | |
uncomfortable. The idea that we should somehow be going back to some | :07:52. | :07:57. | |
period in the life of Hitler when he was working with the Jewish nation | :07:58. | :08:05. | |
or Jewish race is ludicrous. In 2016, the problems which the nation | :08:06. | :08:10. | |
is facing right now, and there is a rise of anti-Semitism in the country | :08:11. | :08:16. | |
and the Labour Party will play a major leading role in fighting bad. | :08:17. | :08:21. | |
Have no doubt. Let's get another remark, racism is not the same as | :08:22. | :08:27. | |
anti-Semitism. Do you believe that? Anti-Semitism is racism. It is | :08:28. | :08:34. | |
racist. Let us be clear about this, racism has no part at all in our | :08:35. | :08:38. | |
country and in a progressive party like the Labour Party, this must | :08:39. | :08:44. | |
have a role and Jeremy Corbyn did act within moments, within a couple | :08:45. | :08:49. | |
of hours, after hearing those comments from Ken Livingstone, | :08:50. | :08:52. | |
notwithstanding the fact they have worked together for many years. He | :08:53. | :08:58. | |
was suspended and rightly so. He was slower when it came to Naz Shah. Her | :08:59. | :09:03. | |
statements... Israel should be removed to the US. Is that | :09:04. | :09:08. | |
anti-Semitic? It is completely unacceptable. Anti-Semitic? Of | :09:09. | :09:15. | |
course it is. And let me say, Naz Shah was within three hours of that | :09:16. | :09:20. | |
statement being brought to our attention, was off the job she was | :09:21. | :09:24. | |
doing... She was not suspended. Hang on. She stood down within three | :09:25. | :09:31. | |
hours from the job she had and asked to make an apology to the house and | :09:32. | :09:36. | |
she did and was then suspended. As soon as the information was | :09:37. | :09:39. | |
available to the party. Not one case has lasted more than 48 hours from | :09:40. | :09:44. | |
the moment it was brought to our attention to the point at which | :09:45. | :09:49. | |
action was taken. Naz Shah also said two other things... The Jews are | :09:50. | :09:55. | |
rallying and she also compared Zionism to Al-Qaeda. You said she | :09:56. | :10:01. | |
was removed from her position as PPS to John McDowall but during her | :10:02. | :10:06. | |
first interview she was not suspended and some time longer to | :10:07. | :10:13. | |
deal with Naz Shah. It took 36 hours from start to finish, everybody is | :10:14. | :10:17. | |
untitled two due process. This is a member of the Labour Party who | :10:18. | :10:23. | |
represents people in Bradford. Action was taken and it was tough, | :10:24. | :10:26. | |
it was straightforward and it was quick and she will have a chance, | :10:27. | :10:32. | |
she apologised to the house and she will have a chance to better case to | :10:33. | :10:38. | |
the committee. -- put her case. This is unacceptable in the modern Labour | :10:39. | :10:42. | |
Party and we will not tolerate that and as somebody who has been in | :10:43. | :10:46. | |
court recently as a victim of anti-Semitic action, let me make | :10:47. | :10:50. | |
this clear to everybody, I was speaking to the leadership and this | :10:51. | :10:54. | |
is unacceptable behaviour, these views are not part of modern Britain | :10:55. | :10:59. | |
and the modern Labour Party. Is there a problem on the left of | :11:00. | :11:02. | |
politics that eight strong anti-Israeli sentiment has crossed | :11:03. | :11:09. | |
into anti-Semitism is not I do not know that is the case, racism is | :11:10. | :11:12. | |
normally an attribute of the right-wing, in the titles you drew | :11:13. | :11:17. | |
attention to the anti-Muslim comments made by the Prime Minister. | :11:18. | :11:23. | |
You sound rather complacent. Is there a strong... Anti-Semitic | :11:24. | :11:34. | |
sentiment bleeding into the party? It is acceptable to have a debate | :11:35. | :11:38. | |
about the actions of any Israeli government, right or wrong, but when | :11:39. | :11:43. | |
this bleeds into anti-Semitism and racism, it is completely wrong and | :11:44. | :11:46. | |
that should not happen and will not be tolerated in this party and I | :11:47. | :11:50. | |
accept the point you are making, some people fail to make the | :11:51. | :11:55. | |
distinction but in doing so, if you think they are promoting the cause | :11:56. | :11:58. | |
of the Palestinians by adopting racist language, and attitudes | :11:59. | :12:03. | |
towards the Israelis, they are not, they are doing damage to the cause. | :12:04. | :12:08. | |
But if you have got a leader, people like Rachel Reeves, they say is | :12:09. | :12:14. | |
giving a slow response and we are falling short of principles are the | :12:15. | :12:18. | |
Labour Party, she says this is a growing problem and Jeremy Corbyn | :12:19. | :12:21. | |
has not responded, not just in the last couple of days but to this | :12:22. | :12:27. | |
problem that has been boiling away. I think boiling might be a slight | :12:28. | :12:30. | |
exaggeration but there is no complicity here, each case has been | :12:31. | :12:36. | |
dealt with immediately, Jeremy will make a series of announcements | :12:37. | :12:39. | |
shortly about all of this and we will continue to act in the most | :12:40. | :12:44. | |
vigorous way. Any sign of racism in this party will not be tolerated and | :12:45. | :12:49. | |
we will continue to lead the movement against racism in our | :12:50. | :12:52. | |
country. Jeremy Corbyn, it appeared to me, to not quite deflect the | :12:53. | :12:58. | |
anti-Semitism ride but talking about the influx of new members to the | :12:59. | :13:02. | |
party, he said that much of this criticism over anti-Semitism comes | :13:03. | :13:08. | |
from people who are nervous of the strength of the party at local | :13:09. | :13:12. | |
level. Do you really agree? I hope that nobody is using the acquisition | :13:13. | :13:15. | |
of anti-Semitism for factional reasons. I hope nobody is doing that | :13:16. | :13:22. | |
but let us be clear, whatever... But do you agree with Jeremy Corbyn that | :13:23. | :13:25. | |
much of this criticism being levelled at Labour over | :13:26. | :13:30. | |
anti-Semitism is in reality a criticism of the strength of the | :13:31. | :13:34. | |
party at local level? It sounds like deflection? We're not going to | :13:35. | :13:40. | |
tolerate any form of racism or anti-Semitism in the party and our | :13:41. | :13:44. | |
actions in the last few days showed this is the case, a member of the | :13:45. | :13:50. | |
running seat today has been dealt with and I hope this is the end of | :13:51. | :13:54. | |
it because people need to know that we will act with great firmness and | :13:55. | :13:57. | |
we will lead the anti-racist movement, as the Labour Party always | :13:58. | :14:02. | |
did and always will and in my own case, my grandmother was Jewish. I | :14:03. | :14:08. | |
remember the anti-Semitism she faced on the streets of Leeds. It looks | :14:09. | :14:14. | |
like it has seen a resurgence. We will not put up with this. Let's be | :14:15. | :14:19. | |
finally put this to you that Jeremy Corbyn is suggesting very clearly | :14:20. | :14:22. | |
that the criticism of the Labour Party over anti-Semitism has got its | :14:23. | :14:27. | |
roots in problems he says that people have with the strength of the | :14:28. | :14:31. | |
local Labour Party. On Newsnight last night, a rabbi and Lord Levi | :14:32. | :14:38. | |
were critical of the party and anti-Semitism. You really do not | :14:39. | :14:42. | |
think that they are concerned over the strength of Jeremy Corbyn's | :14:43. | :14:49. | |
Labour Party at local level? It is not something that occurred to me | :14:50. | :14:51. | |
that they would think and not something I believe either. What I | :14:52. | :14:56. | |
believe is that racism is unacceptable in our country and the | :14:57. | :15:00. | |
party and we will deal with it. Thank you. | :15:01. | :15:00. | |
Joining me in the studio is Labour MP Wes Streeting. | :15:01. | :15:08. | |
How disturbing is all this to you? This has been a pretty dreadful day | :15:09. | :15:15. | |
for the Labour Party and the latest in a string of dreadful days | :15:16. | :15:18. | |
concerning anti-Semitism, whether it is as we have seen in the last | :15:19. | :15:24. | |
couple of days actions by members of the parliamentary party, but plenty | :15:25. | :15:29. | |
of examples also of activists and their language, many of whom predate | :15:30. | :15:33. | |
the leadership of Jeremy Corbyn. When I see are leader on television | :15:34. | :15:38. | |
effectively saying crisis, what crisis? I think needs to talk to | :15:39. | :15:41. | |
some of my constituents who are telling me about the struggle they | :15:42. | :15:45. | |
are having with voting Labour, many who have voted Labour their entire | :15:46. | :15:51. | |
lives. Deeply hurtful to those who would suffer from anti-Semitism, for | :15:52. | :15:57. | |
Jeremy Corbyn to say they are just concerned about the strength of the | :15:58. | :16:02. | |
Labour Party? Absolutely, today we have had people from across the | :16:03. | :16:05. | |
spectrum of the Labour family speaking out against this. If it is, | :16:06. | :16:16. | |
as I was just saying, about the flexion, surely that is deeply | :16:17. | :16:21. | |
insulting? There has been an issue with the flat-footed response of the | :16:22. | :16:25. | |
Labour Party, that is when the issue was first on our radar as MP's as a | :16:26. | :16:29. | |
source of serious concern, that we were not acting quickly enough. On | :16:30. | :16:37. | |
the question of Ken Livingstone, the hierarchy will say he is under | :16:38. | :16:41. | |
investigation, but in the modern Labour Party, after what has | :16:42. | :16:45. | |
happened do you think there is a place Ken Livingstone? No, I would | :16:46. | :16:50. | |
not be sorry if he did not return. In the case of Ken Livingstone he | :16:51. | :16:54. | |
went out today to defend comments which Naz Shah herself did not | :16:55. | :17:00. | |
defend. She expressed remorse and a determination to behave differently | :17:01. | :17:03. | |
and will be judged by how she behaves in the future as well as the | :17:04. | :17:07. | |
past. But Ken Livingstone went around like a political arsonist | :17:08. | :17:11. | |
pouring petrol all over serious issues facing the Labour Party and | :17:12. | :17:14. | |
made matters worse. I don't know what he thought he was achieving and | :17:15. | :17:19. | |
he is on the ruling NEC, the body that supports to enforce the rule | :17:20. | :17:23. | |
book. How can have people have confidence the party is combating | :17:24. | :17:27. | |
anti-Semitism when he is behaving this way? You have said that | :17:28. | :17:33. | |
activists are making anti-Semitic remarks and I know you have been | :17:34. | :17:37. | |
looking for a readership on this? Absolutely, let's be clear, the | :17:38. | :17:42. | |
majority of Labour Party members will be appalled by what has | :17:43. | :17:45. | |
happened and it all of our responsibility to speak up to create | :17:46. | :17:49. | |
an environment where Jewish people and all decent minded people are | :17:50. | :17:53. | |
included. But Jeremy Corbyn has a reach across the left, parts of the | :17:54. | :17:57. | |
left weather is a problem with anti-Semitism and he is a lifelong | :17:58. | :18:01. | |
anti-racist so it's not just the responsibility to act, there is a | :18:02. | :18:05. | |
great opportunity. Jon Trickett would say he has act quickly in the | :18:06. | :18:09. | |
case of Ken Livingstone and reasonably quickly on Naz Shah, but | :18:10. | :18:15. | |
what else does he have to do? Labour members of the all-party group | :18:16. | :18:18. | |
against anti-Semitism offered to meet Jeremy Corbyn because I think | :18:19. | :18:21. | |
there are practical things we can do in terms of the Labour Party rules | :18:22. | :18:25. | |
and structures, to make a practical difference. We asked for that | :18:26. | :18:28. | |
meeting and were told it is going ahead after the elections in May but | :18:29. | :18:36. | |
still no date has been fixed and it reinforces the idea, and their | :18:37. | :18:39. | |
comments Jeremy Mincey later in the day have further fanned the flames. | :18:40. | :18:48. | |
-- the comments Jeremy Mincey later. A big problem for Labour, this is a | :18:49. | :18:54. | |
damaging issue. Absolutely. We have seen leadership from the city can, | :18:55. | :19:00. | |
and we should see that from the top -- from Sadiq Khan. Decent minded | :19:01. | :19:06. | |
conservatives have done the same but we cannot have double standards, we | :19:07. | :19:09. | |
had to show leadership in our own party and get our own house in | :19:10. | :19:11. | |
order. Thank you. This row started with | :19:12. | :19:13. | |
the Bradford West MP Naz Shah's social media posts suggesting Israel | :19:14. | :19:15. | |
should be moved to America, for which, at first, | :19:16. | :19:18. | |
Jeremy Corbyn saw no reason to suspend her - a decision | :19:19. | :19:20. | |
he reversed later yesterday. Naz Shah made a fulsome apology | :19:21. | :19:23. | |
to the Commons but her actions have opened a Pandora's Box | :19:24. | :19:26. | |
out of which jumped - as we've discussed - Ken Livingstone | :19:27. | :19:28. | |
in spectacular fashion. So what is the reaction in her home | :19:29. | :19:31. | |
town, where she made Secunder Kermani spent the day | :19:32. | :19:34. | |
in the city of Bradford. The pews in what is now Bradford 's | :19:35. | :19:46. | |
only synagogue used to be fooled. Now it has a congregation of just | :19:47. | :19:51. | |
over a dozen. But when it was in danger of closing it was the local | :19:52. | :19:55. | |
Muslim community who stepped in to save it. There is even an Muslim | :19:56. | :20:01. | |
only synagogue council. So far as we know... This man who fled Nattie | :20:02. | :20:06. | |
Germany in the 1930s is the chair of the synagogue. -- Nattie Germany. | :20:07. | :20:12. | |
Naz Shah has visited twice and he says he is confident she is not | :20:13. | :20:17. | |
anti-Semitic. Had you seen people being hostile to Jews because of the | :20:18. | :20:24. | |
row lace -- Air Race and a legend and what is happening in Palestine? | :20:25. | :20:29. | |
There is some confusion but there should not be, which I have alluded | :20:30. | :20:35. | |
to before, the two are separate. Sometimes they merge, but they | :20:36. | :20:42. | |
should not be confused. Do you think Naz Shah was one of those people who | :20:43. | :20:48. | |
was confusing the issues? Maybe in 2014 when she made these do Robert | :20:49. | :20:51. | |
Guerrero marks but nowadays she is as entitled to criticise Israel as | :20:52. | :20:58. | |
anyone else. But she's not anti-Semitic. Bradford West has one | :20:59. | :21:04. | |
of the largest populations of British Pakistanis of any | :21:05. | :21:07. | |
parliamentary seat and many people here the Israel Palestine conflict | :21:08. | :21:12. | |
is a big issue. When George Galloway was MP he even controversially | :21:13. | :21:14. | |
declared the city and Israel free zone. Some people think the zero | :21:15. | :21:24. | |
Shah is being and thoroughly criticised and others have said she | :21:25. | :21:31. | |
should have stood her ground. But these local voters we spoke to | :21:32. | :21:34. | |
thought she was right to have been suspended. I at 22 at the time would | :21:35. | :21:40. | |
not have made any comment about needing to be relocated regardless | :21:41. | :21:45. | |
of how emotional I was so I think it's possible to differentiate and | :21:46. | :21:49. | |
the anti-Zionist and not anti-Semitic. Boris Johnson said bad | :21:50. | :21:56. | |
stuff about black people, that's not been noticed or brought up. It has | :21:57. | :22:02. | |
been brushed aside. Maybe because she is Muslim, maybe because she is | :22:03. | :22:07. | |
an Asian MP from Bradford. She has not helped calls herself. Do you | :22:08. | :22:11. | |
think some people here think good for her, she spoke up in favour of | :22:12. | :22:15. | |
the Palestinians were not many other politicians are? Yes, she spoke up | :22:16. | :22:22. | |
for them which is all good, I am in favour of everyone who speaks up for | :22:23. | :22:25. | |
them because they need a voice to be heard but it is the manner of how | :22:26. | :22:30. | |
you speak up. Like anything in life, it is the manner of doing it, it is | :22:31. | :22:34. | |
not about blowing it out, whatever comes into your head. We have told | :22:35. | :22:40. | |
her comments were flagged up to the media by disgruntled local rivals | :22:41. | :22:43. | |
but they have become part of a very national issue for Labour. | :22:44. | :22:46. | |
Scotland's Parliamentary elections next week look likely to return | :22:47. | :22:48. | |
another SNP majority in an electoral system that was designed to prevent | :22:49. | :22:51. | |
single party government in the Scottish Parliament. | :22:52. | :22:54. | |
And the latest Ipsos Mori poll for Scottish Television | :22:55. | :22:58. | |
suggests that Labour, once unassailable, could come third | :22:59. | :23:01. | |
behind the Conservatives in what would be their worst showing | :23:02. | :23:04. | |
for more than a century, when the Labour Party | :23:05. | :23:06. | |
So what are the lessons of political history in Scotland that | :23:07. | :23:13. | |
explain massive shifts in political popularity? | :23:14. | :23:16. | |
And if the SNP are the new establishment, | :23:17. | :23:20. | |
Here's our political editor, David Grossman. | :23:21. | :23:25. | |
The physical landscape of Scotland is reassuringly familiar. | :23:26. | :23:28. | |
But in politics, it's hard to find a recognisable landmark | :23:29. | :23:32. | |
The tectonic plates of Scottish politics have shifted. | :23:33. | :23:37. | |
How long they have shifted for, I think for generations it | :23:38. | :23:39. | |
George Square, Glasgow, scene of celebration, | :23:40. | :23:46. | |
rally and protest during the independence | :23:47. | :23:47. | |
Overseeing it all, the seagull-spattered statue | :23:48. | :23:53. | |
of a former colossus of Scottish and British politics. | :23:54. | :23:57. | |
His party once took 85% of the vote in Scotland, although on a very | :23:58. | :24:00. | |
Today, like Ozymandias, the Empire has weathered to dust. | :24:01. | :24:09. | |
When Gladstone was Prime Minister and, incidentally, an MP | :24:10. | :24:12. | |
for a Scottish constituency, you could say without a shadow | :24:13. | :24:15. | |
of a doubt that the Liberal Party were the political | :24:16. | :24:17. | |
In the '90s and 2000s, Gordon Brown had rather taken | :24:18. | :24:24. | |
on the Gladstonian role and Labour was utterly dominant. | :24:25. | :24:28. | |
Are they the new political establishment in Scotland? | :24:29. | :24:35. | |
That certainly is how the other parties want to portray them. | :24:36. | :24:38. | |
There is no doubt that the SNP are the new Scottish establishment. | :24:39. | :24:43. | |
And what is worse is that they are conservatively cautious with it. | :24:44. | :24:48. | |
And I think that is depressing for a party that claims to be | :24:49. | :24:51. | |
Because their only goal, ultimately, is independence, | :24:52. | :24:57. | |
they are keeping things smooth and safe so they can get that | :24:58. | :25:00. | |
independence and I think that is not good enough for Scotland. | :25:01. | :25:02. | |
I want Scotland to be the best again. | :25:03. | :25:04. | |
They should want that because they say they | :25:05. | :25:06. | |
So what has caused these huge and, so far, lasting | :25:07. | :25:13. | |
One theory is that voters gravitate towards whoever is seen to best | :25:14. | :25:18. | |
express a distinctive Scottish identity. | :25:19. | :25:27. | |
And that has taken a few forms over the years, but now, of course, | :25:28. | :25:30. | |
the standard manifestation is that Scots are more left-wing | :25:31. | :25:32. | |
than those in England, more egalitarian, more caring, | :25:33. | :25:35. | |
more concerned with social justice and less interested | :25:36. | :25:38. | |
in lining their own pockets and big business. | :25:39. | :25:42. | |
And there are elements in truth in all of that but a lot | :25:43. | :25:45. | |
Nevertheless, the SNP own that view of how the majority of Scots | :25:46. | :25:50. | |
Labour used to have that and before them it was the Unionist and before | :25:51. | :25:59. | |
And whoever captures the sense of Scottishness, | :26:00. | :26:05. | |
that sense of self, tends to do well in political terms. | :26:06. | :26:11. | |
This shift has had a profound impact on the other parties, too. | :26:12. | :26:15. | |
The Scottish Conservatives were once led, in turn, | :26:16. | :26:18. | |
by a privately educated tax lawyer and an elder | :26:19. | :26:20. | |
In a million years, they would never have tried this. | :26:21. | :26:29. | |
Or perhaps arranging to meet journalists in a pub at 11am, | :26:30. | :26:42. | |
but Ruth Davidson is clearly a very different type of | :26:43. | :26:44. | |
Not to be First Minister but to lead an effective opposition | :26:45. | :26:52. | |
I think fundamentally they come from quite a similar | :26:53. | :27:00. | |
ideological space, of course there is the nationalist-unionist | :27:01. | :27:02. | |
divide, although the Labour Party seems to be going a little bit | :27:03. | :27:05. | |
softer on the union, they have lost their | :27:06. | :27:07. | |
But in terms of their ideology, actually it is somewhat similar. | :27:08. | :27:11. | |
In the time I have been in the Scottish Parliament, | :27:12. | :27:14. | |
I cannot count the number of bills and legislation that I have seen | :27:15. | :27:17. | |
being put through and I have seen the Labour Party's attempt | :27:18. | :27:20. | |
at opposition amount pretty much to grumbling a bit | :27:21. | :27:22. | |
from the sidelines and then voting for it anyway. | :27:23. | :27:24. | |
And that is not really asking people, it is not challenging | :27:25. | :27:27. | |
or having a debate, it is not having scrutiny. | :27:28. | :27:29. | |
And that is why the SNP have been given a bit of a free ride. | :27:30. | :27:32. | |
Whilst the Conservatives and Liberal Democrats have | :27:33. | :27:34. | |
had time to get used to political marginality, | :27:35. | :27:37. | |
Labour is still showing the signs of a party in shock. | :27:38. | :27:45. | |
Last May, a forest of 40 Labour MPs was felled, leaving | :27:46. | :27:48. | |
Iain Murray is the only Labour MP in Scotland. | :27:49. | :27:51. | |
Is it going to be a quick fix to get Labour back where it was, | :27:52. | :27:55. | |
I don't think it is a quick fix, the Scottish Labour Party has had | :27:56. | :27:59. | |
And it is not going to be fixed in one election or in six months, | :28:00. | :28:05. | |
it is a long-term project, Kezia Dugdale has stated | :28:06. | :28:07. | |
In fact, our manifesto is a manifesto for the long-term, | :28:08. | :28:10. | |
it is not just looking at the elections next Thursday, | :28:11. | :28:13. | |
it is not just looking to 2020, 2021, it is looking to where | :28:14. | :28:17. | |
What do we need to compete in the world? | :28:18. | :28:20. | |
Because if we don't analyse what we need to compete | :28:21. | :28:23. | |
in the world and we don't deal with that and use the powers | :28:24. | :28:26. | |
of the Scottish Parliament to deliver that, then we will be | :28:27. | :28:29. | |
left behind and we cannot afford for that to happen. | :28:30. | :28:31. | |
And where does all this leave the SNP? | :28:32. | :28:33. | |
Despite their dominance, they still reject the title "establishment". | :28:34. | :28:35. | |
Where we have separated ourselves out from the | :28:36. | :28:42. | |
People believe that the establishment in the UK Parliament, | :28:43. | :28:48. | |
for example, they have a terrible track record when it | :28:49. | :28:50. | |
came to the expenses scandal, we saw that. | :28:51. | :28:54. | |
When it has come to the recently released Panama Papers, | :28:55. | :28:56. | |
we have seen how members of the establishment have been... | :28:57. | :28:58. | |
Their friends and themselves have been involved in evading tax | :28:59. | :29:01. | |
Up here in Scotland, if you take the Scottish Parliament | :29:02. | :29:06. | |
as an example, and the Scottish government and the SNP, | :29:07. | :29:09. | |
we were not embroiled in the scandal, the Panama accounts | :29:10. | :29:12. | |
have not shown any connections because there aren't connections | :29:13. | :29:14. | |
Nevertheless, since the General Election, | :29:15. | :29:19. | |
two SNP MPs have lost the party whip while allegations of financial | :29:20. | :29:22. | |
If the polls are even within a Royal mile of being accurate, | :29:23. | :29:29. | |
the SNP looks set to continue its amazing dominance | :29:30. | :29:31. | |
In the EU referendum arguments on the economy, | :29:32. | :29:42. | |
the voices shouting loudest so far have been warning about the adverse | :29:43. | :29:45. | |
impact of a Brexit - the latest being the Chancellor's | :29:46. | :29:48. | |
insistence that leaving the EU would slow growth and do permanent | :29:49. | :29:55. | |
But today a group of economists have produced a report - | :29:56. | :29:59. | |
a sort of Eight Horsemen against the Apocalypse - | :30:00. | :30:01. | |
The eight economists claim that in, in fact, the UK economy | :30:02. | :30:06. | |
would be boosted by 4% if we were outside the EU. | :30:07. | :30:08. | |
Their report argues we wouldn't even need a new trade agreement | :30:09. | :30:13. | |
because 70% of our exports are traded under World Trade | :30:14. | :30:15. | |
The eight economists say the report is designed to dispel | :30:16. | :30:23. | |
the exaggerated claims and threats whipped up by Project Fear. | :30:24. | :30:29. | |
They argue that the benefits of the EU single market have been | :30:30. | :30:32. | |
greatly oversold and the downside of belonging is that you must apply | :30:33. | :30:52. | |
all its rules and conditions throughout the whole economy. | :30:53. | :30:54. | |
So although only 12% of our GDP is directly accounted | :30:55. | :30:56. | |
for by exports to the EU, the 88% that is not must obey | :30:57. | :30:59. | |
A Brexit, they say, would lead to a 2% improvement in output | :31:00. | :31:04. | |
The economists claim that consumer prices would fall by about 8%. | :31:05. | :31:08. | |
Their argument being that the EU is a customs union and as such it | :31:09. | :31:11. | |
artificially inflates the prices of agricultural | :31:12. | :31:13. | |
and manufacturing goods, which hurts UK households. | :31:14. | :31:16. | |
They forecast that if the UK remains in the EU, GDP growth | :31:17. | :31:19. | |
By comparison, a post-Brexit reality, they predict, | :31:20. | :31:22. | |
The economists concede short-term uncertainty but insist that this | :31:23. | :31:26. | |
would be outweighed by the long-term benefits of becoming | :31:27. | :31:28. | |
Joining me now is Andrea Leadsom, who is the Minister of State | :31:29. | :31:44. | |
at the Department of Energy and Climate Change. | :31:45. | :31:46. | |
She didn't write today's report, but she firmly believes the UK | :31:47. | :31:49. | |
Given all of the following wind for staying inside, presumably this is | :31:50. | :32:05. | |
music to your ears? It is great to see an alternative view and as I | :32:06. | :32:09. | |
have said, it is very difficult to gaze into the crystal ball even to | :32:10. | :32:15. | |
next month, 15 years, as economists are trying, but it is important to | :32:16. | :32:20. | |
show there is another side to this argument. We will go on to whether | :32:21. | :32:25. | |
or not the figures mean anything but when it comes to the arguments for | :32:26. | :32:30. | |
staying within the EU or leaving, the document suggests that no flight | :32:31. | :32:38. | |
of global situations, but if you look at HSBC, Standard Chartered, | :32:39. | :32:44. | |
none of them at all will give any fall for leaving. HSBC have just on | :32:45. | :32:49. | |
their periodic review of where they should face their business and have | :32:50. | :32:57. | |
decided to stay in London. Looking at merging with the London Stock | :32:58. | :33:01. | |
Exchange, they know there is a referendum coming up so you have to | :33:02. | :33:04. | |
follow the money and not just look at the rhetoric. Let us look at some | :33:05. | :33:09. | |
figures, the document is full of productions that we would be better | :33:10. | :33:17. | |
off if we left. He would be more competitive, GDP would grow, we | :33:18. | :33:20. | |
would be more productive and so forth. That is one set of figures, | :33:21. | :33:27. | |
and yet leave EU were very keen to rubbish the Chancellor when he said | :33:28. | :33:35. | |
that if we left the EU, we would be ?4300 per head worse off. What do | :33:36. | :33:41. | |
you think? Well, that figure, the Treasury figure, assumes that the | :33:42. | :33:49. | |
UK, if we leave the EU, pulls up the drawbridge, does no more trade and | :33:50. | :33:51. | |
gets a very basic trade agreement with the EU and as a result, of our | :33:52. | :33:57. | |
failure to do any International Trade, productivity will decline and | :33:58. | :34:01. | |
that is where you get that number from. It just does not stack up. | :34:02. | :34:07. | |
We're in a situation where this document is stuffed full of figures | :34:08. | :34:12. | |
saying we would be better to go and those wanting to remain give just as | :34:13. | :34:17. | |
much. You are rubbishing the Chancellor? It is very difficult for | :34:18. | :34:22. | |
economists to look at next month let alone in 15 years and all I would | :34:23. | :34:28. | |
say about this, this is not a document, they are eight different | :34:29. | :34:33. | |
essays on an aspect of leaving the EU, incredibly eminent economists | :34:34. | :34:38. | |
with a very valid view and they think there would be a benefit | :34:39. | :34:44. | |
economically to leaving the European Union. I am not just justify their | :34:45. | :34:49. | |
opinion but we have to look at the big picture, how could the UK | :34:50. | :34:55. | |
survive outside? Remain say they have the OECD, the US Treasury, the | :34:56. | :35:00. | |
CBI, Barack Obama, stacked up against them? Well, there is a very | :35:01. | :35:06. | |
big visitation of gaining up against the poor British voter but if you | :35:07. | :35:10. | |
look at life from the point of view of the British voter, the British | :35:11. | :35:16. | |
voter actually is in a situation where if you are trying to get a | :35:17. | :35:21. | |
good school plays or a doctor 's appointment or onto housing ladder, | :35:22. | :35:25. | |
there is an overwhelming and uncontrollable goblin of too many | :35:26. | :35:28. | |
people which is a direct result of being in the EU. This is about | :35:29. | :35:34. | |
immigration as well? It is about a number of factors but I am talking | :35:35. | :35:41. | |
about the fact that international institutions and other politicians | :35:42. | :35:44. | |
do not have skin in this game, those who do are the British public, who | :35:45. | :35:49. | |
will be voting. In terms of productivity and GDP growth, what | :35:50. | :35:55. | |
these economists say is that if we were outside the EU, we would not | :35:56. | :36:00. | |
have the free movement of EU citizens and we could cherry pick | :36:01. | :36:04. | |
the cream of the immigrants who wanted to come. The same number of | :36:05. | :36:10. | |
immigrants, but it would give us a broader range of abilities. Do you | :36:11. | :36:15. | |
agree? I think immigration is a good thing up to a point but the problem | :36:16. | :36:19. | |
we have is when it is uncontrolled and puts enormous pressure on UK | :36:20. | :36:23. | |
public services then it is a problem. The other impact, is to put | :36:24. | :36:31. | |
wages down for British workers and therein lies the problem, a certain | :36:32. | :36:35. | |
amount of immigration is good but those immigrants need to be people | :36:36. | :36:38. | |
who can contribute to this economy. By and large, the immigration within | :36:39. | :36:44. | |
the European Union has been good for the country because they come and | :36:45. | :36:47. | |
want to work very hard. The report from the Bank of England last year | :36:48. | :36:52. | |
said that the wave of new people coming into the country has put down | :36:53. | :36:57. | |
wages for the lower paid. Do you think that Britain should come out | :36:58. | :37:02. | |
of the single market? I certainly think that Britain has the most | :37:03. | :37:05. | |
amazing future ahead of us if we leave. We're not a tiny country, by | :37:06. | :37:10. | |
the world's fifth biggest economy with the best contract law in the | :37:11. | :37:14. | |
world, part of the Commonwealth of 2.5 billion consumers and we have | :37:15. | :37:18. | |
the least corrupt judicial system in the world and some of the best | :37:19. | :37:22. | |
universities... Should become the single market? Almost certainly that | :37:23. | :37:27. | |
would be the case. Not like Norway and Switzerland? Norway has a | :37:28. | :37:32. | |
publishing of 6 million people and is largely goods traded and Iceland, | :37:33. | :37:38. | |
they have a proposition of 300,000, very good than Northampton. We would | :37:39. | :37:47. | |
operate on WTO rules? We would have a UK solution and there will be | :37:48. | :37:50. | |
something that is discussed once we get to the other side. Barack Obama | :37:51. | :37:56. | |
says we would be at the end of the queue for any kind of trade deal | :37:57. | :38:00. | |
were not having to deal with 500 million? Even the day after, | :38:01. | :38:06. | |
officials from the US Department had said there is no such thing as any | :38:07. | :38:10. | |
queue for international trade deals and anyway, the US does not have | :38:11. | :38:15. | |
many of them on the go and let us not forget that we have been in the | :38:16. | :38:19. | |
EU for 43 years, we are the biggest foreign direct investor for the US | :38:20. | :38:24. | |
and restore free trade agreement with the USA Today and there is no | :38:25. | :38:29. | |
reason to think if we did not keep one would not be perfectly in line | :38:30. | :38:35. | |
with countries like a man. If you do not leave that we need to operate | :38:36. | :38:40. | |
under WTO rules, you don't actually have any blueprint in how we could | :38:41. | :38:46. | |
deal with International Trade? We would have a British option, we | :38:47. | :38:49. | |
would immediately go from being a member of the EU to being the | :38:50. | :38:55. | |
biggest trading partner, it would be absolutely in their interests and | :38:56. | :38:58. | |
our own interests and we have been aligning our rules with their heirs | :38:59. | :39:02. | |
for 43 years, it would be very easy to negotiate, offensive free-trade. | :39:03. | :39:05. | |
Thank you very much indeed. In the run-up to the EU referendum, | :39:06. | :39:08. | |
Newsnight is inviting a number of public figures in the UK to tell | :39:09. | :39:11. | |
us their thoughts on the EU, whether they are passionate | :39:12. | :39:15. | |
advocates for Remain Tonight, the author and playwright, | :39:16. | :39:16. | |
and the man who wrote I think what we are in the process | :39:17. | :39:20. | |
of doing is finding a new place for ourselves in the world | :39:21. | :39:36. | |
and we have not quite found it. Europe has been, if you like, | :39:37. | :39:40. | |
our resting place for some time now But we are, I think, as a people, | :39:41. | :39:43. | |
uncomfortable being one We are not a world | :39:44. | :39:50. | |
power as we once were. We are a significant | :39:51. | :39:58. | |
country in Europe. Everyone seems to think that | :39:59. | :40:01. | |
we're not in Europe. There is the Channel between us | :40:02. | :40:05. | |
but we are in Europe, We cannot move the country towards | :40:06. | :40:07. | |
America. But in a way, we are, | :40:08. | :40:10. | |
to some extent, going back I think it has been | :40:11. | :40:14. | |
disappointing, the re-negotiation. Not necessarily because of | :40:15. | :40:27. | |
what David Cameron has or has not But because of the kind | :40:28. | :40:31. | |
of threat that it came with. It seems to me that when you go | :40:32. | :40:38. | |
into discussions with friends, you don't begin it by saying, | :40:39. | :40:40. | |
if I don't get what I want out of this discussion, I am leaving, | :40:41. | :40:46. | |
and I'll through my toys out We don't need to talk | :40:47. | :40:48. | |
to our friends that way. The creation of fear | :40:49. | :40:56. | |
and the uncertainty of it is being whipped up by one side | :40:57. | :41:02. | |
and by the other. And it seems to me that they're | :41:03. | :41:06. | |
missing the point I tend to be the kind of person | :41:07. | :41:08. | |
who listens to one side of it And then I hear the other side | :41:09. | :41:14. | |
and I think that's right. But they don't know any more | :41:15. | :41:18. | |
than I do. And I do know my history, | :41:19. | :41:21. | |
I do know we have been at peace for all these years and that has | :41:22. | :41:25. | |
something to do with the EU. This is not a club that I think | :41:26. | :41:28. | |
we should leave without thinking That's just about | :41:29. | :41:31. | |
all from us tonight. But we've just enough time for some | :41:32. | :41:41. | |
music in celebration The all-star Human Revolution | :41:42. | :41:44. | |
Orchestra will be performing An Ode to the Human Spirit | :41:45. | :41:47. | |
at London's Shaw Theatre on Saturday The acclaimed jazz guitarist | :41:48. | :41:50. | |
Hugh Burns is here to give us We are days away from the start of | :41:51. | :43:21. | |
me but this spring weather will continue. Low pressure bringing | :43:22. | :43:25. | |
further outbreaks of rain, sleet and hill snow to the northern half of | :43:26. | :43:29. | |
the country in particular and Northern Ireland getting | :43:30. | :43:30. |