29/04/2016 Newsnight


29/04/2016

In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines with Emily Maitlis.


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Transcript


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A week of wondering where anti-Zionism becomes anti-Semitism.

:00:00.:00:00.

Tonight, we tackle that question head on.

:00:00.:00:14.

Ken Livingstone insists he's said nothing wrong,

:00:15.:00:16.

Those who support him say debate about Israel is being stifled.

:00:17.:00:20.

His critics tell us that cannot become a cover for blatant racism.

:00:21.:00:24.

I don't know why anyone would vote for Labour in the state

:00:25.:00:27.

I don't know why anyone would vote for Labour as long as Corbyn,

:00:28.:00:31.

who dared to say yesterday, "Crisis, what crisis?"

:00:32.:00:33.

The least he could do is to say, OK, there's a problem.

:00:34.:00:41.

We ask our guests on both sides. And we'll have the latest

:00:42.:00:46.

on Corbyn's anti-semitism action plan - published tonight.

:00:47.:00:50.

Also tonight, the Labour fortress of Wales.

:00:51.:00:51.

Ukip is hoping to turn some of those green valleys a new shade of purple

:00:52.:00:58.

People now realise that if they want things to change in Wales,

:00:59.:01:03.

And a lot of the Labour voters are not really

:01:04.:01:07.

And once upon a time, a tiny mid-table football club hit

:01:08.:01:13.

As the Leicester City fairytale nears its spectacular conclusion,

:01:14.:01:16.

we ask if the club's success could change the multi-billion

:01:17.:01:19.

There's a point, some might say, when you should step

:01:20.:01:34.

Ken Livingstone hasn't found that point yet.

:01:35.:01:40.

He confirmed to newspapers today he stood by his comments

:01:41.:01:42.

about Hitler - first made 30 years ago -

:01:43.:01:44.

and called on Labour to reinstate him.

:01:45.:01:46.

Labour has promised to get a grip on tackling anti-Semitism,

:01:47.:01:49.

but the questions at the heart of the row perhaps go wider

:01:50.:01:54.

than the problems facing one political party.

:01:55.:01:58.

Some on the left have argued that the cries of anti-Semitism have

:01:59.:02:02.

been aimed at shutting down criticism of Israel

:02:03.:02:07.

So tonight, we ask how far legitimate questions

:02:08.:02:09.

about the nature of the Jewish State before it turns into

:02:10.:02:12.

We will talk to guests on both sides in a moment.

:02:13.:02:16.

First, Chris Cook has been examining the issue.

:02:17.:02:18.

He began by talking to the novelist Howard Jacobson.

:02:19.:02:27.

The word anti-Semitism. It explodes, it is so a word I don't want to us

:02:28.:02:33.

yoorks I don't want to hear myself saying it, I haven't for years,

:02:34.:02:37.

wanted to say anti-Semitism and they are making me say it. Wish the left

:02:38.:02:42.

didn't make me say it. All the time. I accept and understand that the

:02:43.:02:46.

words I used caused upset. It has been a bad week for Labour.

:02:47.:02:54.

Suspending one MP and one unapologetic former Mayor of London.

:02:55.:03:00.

Both are being investigated over anti-Semitic. Labour plan to get on

:03:01.:03:04.

the front foot. The way they will do it is by setting up a rule book

:03:05.:03:08.

setting out what is acceptable criticism of the state of Israel and

:03:09.:03:13.

what is anti-Semitism. It straight forward but there is an area

:03:14.:03:17.

contested. It is round Zionism, it is surround the idea of the Jewish

:03:18.:03:23.

state itself. Lots of critics of Israel profession

:03:24.:03:28.

to oppose Zionism. Although many of them actually seem to Popes specific

:03:29.:03:34.

action by Israeli Governments. So, is signism what they are really

:03:35.:03:38.

opposing? That is where all the trouble comes from. This is why the

:03:39.:03:44.

left won't get rid of this. Sign snitch was a liberation movement.

:03:45.:03:48.

Not a movement of oppression. It wasn't a movement of clonism. I

:03:49.:03:53.

don't know why anybody given the history of Jews would want to be

:03:54.:03:59.

anti-Zionist. Allowing for the fact by Zionism we are talking about the

:04:00.:04:03.

Jews to return to their home land. Lots of questions to be asked. Lots

:04:04.:04:09.

of cruelties involved in such a dream of liberation. There always is

:04:10.:04:15.

with liberation dreams. This ledder of a pro Palestinian campaign reads

:04:16.:04:18.

the word differently. Israel needs to be judged by the same laws as

:04:19.:04:25.

everyone else. So if it means occupying and staying in occupation

:04:26.:04:30.

in Palestine in the West bank Gaza it is wrong. Would you call yourself

:04:31.:04:36.

anti-Zionism. I would if that is what it means. It has lots of

:04:37.:04:40.

different views about what it mean, if it means taking away what the

:04:41.:04:43.

world has said Palestine should have, which is a free state I am an

:04:44.:04:49.

anti-Zionism. The point of anti-Zionism is the existence of

:04:50.:04:52.

Israel itself, so it is anti-Semitism to oppose that? I am

:04:53.:04:57.

prepared to say anybody who wants to remove Israel, who thinks Israel has

:04:58.:05:00.

no right to be, and would like it not to be, I am prepared to go out

:05:01.:05:06.

on a limb and say that anybody who says that, is an anti-is mite. Do

:05:07.:05:11.

you think it is legitimate to call for the end of the state of Israel?

:05:12.:05:17.

I don't. No. The Palestinian, the PLO has accepted its economies

:05:18.:05:20.

entering it is calling for a fair and just solution, and that is what

:05:21.:05:25.

we support and I think that is what the world is supporting and nobody,

:05:26.:05:28.

I think believes that there is going to be any future that doesn't

:05:29.:05:32.

include Israel within it. So where are the lines elsewhere? We asked an

:05:33.:05:37.

deck Mick from a pro Israel organisation? Legitimate criticism

:05:38.:05:41.

isn't just fine and acceptable, it is necessary. Every nation state

:05:42.:05:46.

needs to be held to account and I think legitimate criticism sound

:05:47.:05:50.

like this. The occupation is wrong, the settlement should come to an

:05:51.:05:55.

end, the attacks upon Hamas in order to stop the rockets are

:05:56.:06:00.

disproportionate, the Israeli Arabs suffer inequalities and we should

:06:01.:06:02.

close the gaps more quickly. Whether you agree with it or not that is in

:06:03.:06:07.

the bounds of legitimate criticism. But even these criticisms can tip

:06:08.:06:13.

over into something else. If you use a discourse which is horribly

:06:14.:06:18.

demonising of Israel, which come pairs Binyamin Netanyahu to Hitler

:06:19.:06:24.

and the Nazi analogies which uses the old tropes and images that used

:06:25.:06:30.

to be apply to the Jew, the stereo typical Jew, you have wandered into

:06:31.:06:36.

the wrong area. We have it clear we don't tolerate Islamophobia, racism

:06:37.:06:41.

or anti-Semitism. I have had to expel people from the organisation

:06:42.:06:44.

and defend that action and win it. It is part of what we do. We think

:06:45.:06:49.

it is wrong. And therefore we don't tolerate it. Jeremy Corbyn's problem

:06:50.:06:53.

is Labour finds people saying things that pro Palestinians will condemn,

:06:54.:06:57.

and so, his party finds itself in trouble.

:06:58.:07:05.

Do you think that Jews should or could vote for Labour? Well, I don't

:07:06.:07:09.

know why they would right this minute. I like the idea that we

:07:10.:07:14.

should all be above petty interest, but this is petty personal interest,

:07:15.:07:18.

but this isn't petty. I don't know why anyone would vote for Labour in

:07:19.:07:22.

New measures from Corbyn, and you and this evening heard

:07:23.:07:29.

from the former General Secretary of the Labour Party on this issue.

:07:30.:07:32.

Chris, talk us through what was said.

:07:33.:07:34.

So this evening the Labour Party announced it will have a publish a

:07:35.:07:40.

report which is going to look into how it should deal with issue, where

:07:41.:07:46.

it should draw the lines. The former director of Liberty will be involved

:07:47.:07:50.

in that process, this has been accelerated in part by a procession

:07:51.:07:55.

of concern from within the Labour Party itself, the latest is Lord

:07:56.:07:59.

Triesman, who was in charge of the machinery, he was sort of the guy in

:08:00.:08:03.

charge of making sure the thing won election, he says, we have a

:08:04.:08:07.

significant problem which may drive a deep wedge between Jewish people

:08:08.:08:10.

and the party we have traditionally supported. If the Labour doesn't

:08:11.:08:15.

lance the boil fast, it will lose those who have a tribal loyalty. We

:08:16.:08:20.

are at a moment of truth. Thank you very much. You can see

:08:21.:08:29.

those words there of Lord Triesman. Let us

:08:30.:08:35.

Joining me now is Amnon Aran, an academic of Middle Eastern

:08:36.:08:45.

Studies at City University, and Ghada Karmi, who is a research

:08:46.:08:47.

fellow at the Institute of Arab and Islamic Studies at Exeter.

:08:48.:08:50.

If Jeremy Corbyn has accepted the need to make changes to the party,

:08:51.:08:54.

does it admit, if you like the party has a problem with anti-Semitism?

:08:55.:08:58.

Not necessarily, think that the ferocity of the attacks on Jeremy

:08:59.:09:03.

Corbyn, on certain members of the Labour Party, accused of

:09:04.:09:08.

anti-eSemitism and so on, has rattled the Labour leadership, I

:09:09.:09:13.

think that is what has happened. You don't think there is anti-Semitism

:09:14.:09:18.

in the Labour Party? There is anti-Semitism all over the place. So

:09:19.:09:21.

there is within the Labour Party? Is that a concession, there is? There

:09:22.:09:25.

is, and as there is in the general population as, but you see, I think

:09:26.:09:30.

the problem is people don't look into this properly, they haven't

:09:31.:09:34.

bothered, to examine these accusations of anti-Semitism, to see

:09:35.:09:41.

what actually the those accused of this, in fact said, and what would

:09:42.:09:46.

people would find is a lot of the comments were critical of Israel,

:09:47.:09:51.

Israel's policies, and that is not anti-Semitism. I am going to bring

:09:52.:09:55.

you in in a second, let us stick on this for one second. Naz Shah was

:09:56.:10:00.

the MP at the centre of this, who suggested that Israel should be

:10:01.:10:06.

moved to the United States. Would you find that statement

:10:07.:10:10.

anti-Semitic? Absolutely not. Look, everybody knows that Israel is very

:10:11.:10:15.

close to the US, that the US -- United States protects Israel, it

:10:16.:10:19.

funds it, it arms it. Moving the whole state of Israel, to the US,

:10:20.:10:23.

would not be considered anti-Semitic in your mind? No, let me explain, if

:10:24.:10:33.

you like it is, it is a clumsy way of expressing precisely that

:10:34.:10:39.

comment, the fact that the two are very closely knit together, and let

:10:40.:10:43.

me say quickly, over a million Israelis live in the US, lots of

:10:44.:10:50.

Israeli citizens have dual... I want to bring in our other guest. Foo

:10:51.:10:53.

first there is a problem in the Labour Party as acknowledged by the

:10:54.:10:57.

steps taken by Jeremy Corbyn. I think the statements made by Ken

:10:58.:11:01.

Livingstone and Naz Shah have been scrutinised carefully and I think

:11:02.:11:07.

Ken Livingstone's past actions especially for example the

:11:08.:11:12.

celebration of somebody of ully and I think Ken Livingstone's past

:11:13.:11:14.

actions especially for example the celebration of somebody of someone

:11:15.:11:16.

who praise Hitler "Who put the Jews in their place" strongly suggests

:11:17.:11:22.

there is a deeply seated anti-Semitic. The point about Naz

:11:23.:11:27.

Shah, if one concedes or condones the idea of transferring a whole

:11:28.:11:31.

population surely that should be applicable if was does, I don't, but

:11:32.:11:36.

if Naz Shah would have said that or proposed that as a policy to solve

:11:37.:11:40.

peace processes generally or zones of conflict we could have maybe

:11:41.:11:44.

discussed that, but I am sure you for example would not have supported

:11:45.:11:48.

the proposal to transfer Palestinians to Jordan, even though

:11:49.:11:52.

70% of the population is Palestinian. I would not support it.

:11:53.:11:58.

But the argument there are a million Israelis in the US and

:11:59.:12:01.

transportations of Israeli is logical, seems a fallacy. Have to

:12:02.:12:07.

make this clear, Naz Shah did not say transporting the Israeli people

:12:08.:12:11.

to Israel. To United States, she is saying Israel, the state of Israel,

:12:12.:12:16.

it is an idea, that you should maybe, it is in the same vein when

:12:17.:12:22.

you say if you love them so much, go and Li there. Are you saying that

:12:23.:12:25.

The Tate of Israel should not exist? I tell you what I am saying, I need

:12:26.:12:30.

to answer you on the question of transport. I am an expert on people

:12:31.:12:35.

backbench up rooted and transported elsewhere. I am Palestinian. I

:12:36.:12:40.

understand. They are hundreds of thousands of Palestinians, were

:12:41.:12:44.

properly and really transported from our home land, many of us into

:12:45.:12:48.

refugee camps. I am wear of that. It is 23409 an idea, it wasn't a little

:12:49.:12:53.

thing a post on Facebook, it was a reality. I know all about that. I

:12:54.:12:59.

don't put it in the same bracket. It is that reason I can't understand

:13:00.:13:03.

how you can condone the comments made by Naz Shah, I personally of

:13:04.:13:08.

course would completely object, any form of transfer of any population,

:13:09.:13:12.

Palestinian, Israeli, Jewish, or... Let me widen this out a second. Do

:13:13.:13:16.

you have a problem with any other Government poll assistance the

:13:17.:13:20.

region, other than Israels? Of course. There are many, many Arab

:13:21.:13:28.

Governments, which are despotic, tyrannical, of course. But you

:13:29.:13:33.

would, you would blame its people for that? Because the connation is

:13:34.:13:38.

that when you talk about the state of Israel or moving the state of

:13:39.:13:42.

Israel, you are talking about all the people that exist in it. You are

:13:43.:13:46.

not talking about the policys of after party or a government. This

:13:47.:13:51.

was, as I tried to explain, this was a kind of comment, I mean, a silly.

:13:52.:13:56.

A lot of people forget Naz Shah for a moment, a lot of people are saying

:13:57.:13:59.

the state of Israel should not exist. You know that. When they say

:14:00.:14:04.

that, are they saying that that is the whole state, they are not

:14:05.:14:08.

talking about Likud or net or the Government. They are talking about

:14:09.:14:11.

the Israeli people. -- Binyamin Netanyahu. The post please don't us

:14:12.:14:19.

let us go all over the place. The post talked about moving Israel, the

:14:20.:14:23.

state of Israel, to the United States, in a sort of a semi jokey

:14:24.:14:29.

way, one must be able, one must be able to say things you know. We are

:14:30.:14:33.

going to a bigger question, the existence of the state of veil. That

:14:34.:14:40.

respect, think the real issue is the singularing out of Israel in some of

:14:41.:14:44.

the debate. I think if we are serious about being on the left and

:14:45.:14:48.

being liberal, then we should apply our standards to many country,

:14:49.:14:53.

Israel maybe included in that and I would join the criticisms of many of

:14:54.:14:57.

the Israeli policy, the occupation is deplorable. What about the fact

:14:58.:15:02.

that Israel in a way singles itself out. It has this policy, the right

:15:03.:15:07.

of return, for all Jew, do you think it is conflating there, a people and

:15:08.:15:16.

a state? I think Israel is predicated on the idea it is a

:15:17.:15:21.

Jewish state. It has tried to be a Jewish Democratic state. There are

:15:22.:15:27.

various elements in Israel which compromise its democratic

:15:28.:15:30.

credentials and I dare say there are many Israelis who pointed this out

:15:31.:15:34.

on a daily basis. This is not something new. The only point I

:15:35.:15:37.

would make about the debate we're having here is often we find in the

:15:38.:15:44.

debate here, in some elements in the British left, singling out of Israel

:15:45.:15:49.

on various issues which are to do with human rights, finance,

:15:50.:15:54.

oppression and so forth. If we're going to be serious about this, they

:15:55.:15:57.

should be put in a broader context, not only of the region but further

:15:58.:16:02.

beyond, then we can have a sensible debate about where Israel fits into

:16:03.:16:06.

that spectrum. Do you think anti-Semitism would disappear if

:16:07.:16:12.

Israel changed its borders? No, look, there are two issues here and

:16:13.:16:19.

you keep getting stubborn, it's really not helpful. Israel as a

:16:20.:16:22.

state violates human rights, it in breach of international law, it is

:16:23.:16:28.

therefore to be criticised, to be corrected, to be called to account.

:16:29.:16:33.

Would you do it to a lot of other countries in the region? We're

:16:34.:16:38.

talking about Israel. We're talking about where Israel fits into the

:16:39.:16:42.

context of the world in terms of criticism. Israel is among states in

:16:43.:16:46.

the world which violate human rights and which infringe... Why haven't we

:16:47.:16:54.

mentioned any others? We're talking about anti-Semitism, the Labour

:16:55.:16:59.

Party, Israel, why do you want me to talk about China, Iran or whatever?

:17:00.:17:04.

No other state is questioned about its existence in that way. We're not

:17:05.:17:10.

talking about the existence. You are not talking about the existence, I

:17:11.:17:14.

think you are not under knowledge that, but what we find in some of

:17:15.:17:18.

the debate is that Israel's which do exist is questioned and the reason

:17:19.:17:21.

we are trying to put this in broader context is to see whether some

:17:22.:17:24.

element of the debate is fuelled by anti-Semitism. When we have someone

:17:25.:17:31.

like Ken Livingstone, who celebrates personality such as use of good are

:17:32.:17:40.

we... Jeremy Corbyn has been affiliated with groups who have

:17:41.:17:43.

profound anti-Semitic credentials, I don't imply he is an anti-Semite...

:17:44.:17:48.

He is a fellow traveller in the sense that... I'll finish this

:17:49.:17:54.

point... If his anti-Zionism brings him to shed company with groups so

:17:55.:17:58.

bitterly anti-Semitic and he doesn't acknowledge that, that is where that

:17:59.:18:03.

sense of denial comes from. Do you accept sometimes the anti-Zionism

:18:04.:18:08.

that he would acknowledge covers, if you like, that people call it

:18:09.:18:14.

racism, anti-Semitism, when it isn't, that it stifles debate? I

:18:15.:18:19.

think certainly in some cases perfectly legitimate criticism of

:18:20.:18:24.

the state of Israel... There are attempts to stifle them on

:18:25.:18:27.

anti-Semitic grounds. However, I think in this country, in the UK,

:18:28.:18:31.

the debate on Israel, said in the criticism of Israel, is efficiently

:18:32.:18:36.

vocal and conspicuous, which refutes any suggestion that somehow the

:18:37.:18:40.

debate and criticism of Israel is stifled in the country, it's the

:18:41.:18:45.

last thing one could say. I'm afraid it is, I'm afraid this whole Guha is

:18:46.:18:51.

about deflecting attention from what Israel is doing to other people, the

:18:52.:18:58.

Palestinians. -- this whole hoo-ha. And it's making people think about

:18:59.:19:01.

anti-Semitism rather than the actions of the state of Israel, this

:19:02.:19:03.

is what it's about. Next week sees one of

:19:04.:19:06.

the most complicated set of elections around the UK -

:19:07.:19:08.

voting for the Scottish Parliament, the Northern Ireland Assembly,

:19:09.:19:11.

the English councils, the London Assembly -

:19:12.:19:12.

as well as several directly elected But take particular notice

:19:13.:19:15.

of what happens in Wales overnight on Thursday,

:19:16.:19:18.

which could yield some of the most Ukip is hoping to gain ground

:19:19.:19:20.

there for the first time - fielding candidates across Wales

:19:21.:19:24.

and on the regional top For nearly a century Wales has been

:19:25.:19:39.

the Labour Party's fortress. Today, it's the last redoubt of Labour in

:19:40.:19:45.

government anywhere in the UK. Since the beginning of universal suffrage

:19:46.:19:49.

in every Wales wide electoral contest are one, the party of an era

:19:50.:19:56.

in Devon has come first. -- Aneurin Bevan. Not only that, Labour created

:19:57.:20:03.

the devolved assembly in Cardiff and dominated its government ever since.

:20:04.:20:07.

We live in a fickle political age. As we've seen in Scotland, tribal

:20:08.:20:11.

political loyalties forged over decades can crumble in month.

:20:12.:20:17.

Gretchen maths. Essential part of their message is reminding voters

:20:18.:20:23.

how long Labour has been in charge. We've had 17 years. 17 years. 17

:20:24.:20:31.

years of Labour's managed decline. Key to the time for a change message

:20:32.:20:35.

is the suppose it under performance of public services in Wales compared

:20:36.:20:39.

to the rest of the UK. Plaid Cymru want a second place they lost to the

:20:40.:20:42.

Conservatives in the last assembly elections. Plaid Cymru had been in:

:20:43.:20:49.

Lycian with Labour until 2011 and we had prioritised winning a referendum

:20:50.:20:54.

to transform our national assembly into a lawmaking Parliament. I think

:20:55.:21:00.

as a junior partner in, Lycian, in many cases throughout the world, we

:21:01.:21:04.

took a hit for that in the following election. I think the situation is

:21:05.:21:08.

different now, we've had 17 years of Labour leading the government in

:21:09.:21:11.

Wales. Things could be so much better than they are. My programme

:21:12.:21:17.

of government, my excellent team of candidates and Shadow Cabinet, are

:21:18.:21:22.

ready now to for Wales the change Wales needs. And eight Plaid Cymru

:21:23.:21:28.

led government. The Liberal Democrats, too, are targeting public

:21:29.:21:32.

services. Polls suggest the party could be squeezed hard by the

:21:33.:21:36.

electoral system that once benefited them. Perhaps falling below the

:21:37.:21:39.

point where they will be treated as a group at all in the new assembly.

:21:40.:21:45.

After last year's general election nobody believes polls anyway any

:21:46.:21:49.

more. Five years ago polls said we would be wiped out, no Welsh Liberal

:21:50.:21:53.

Democrats in the National Assembly. We've had the smallest group but the

:21:54.:21:57.

group that has made the biggest difference. We've used influence to

:21:58.:22:01.

create thousands more apprenticeships, ?280 million extra

:22:02.:22:05.

into our schools. We've been able to pass a law which will see increased

:22:06.:22:08.

numbers of nurses in hospital wards. We may be small but if achieved that

:22:09.:22:12.

with five assembly members, imagine what we could do with more. The

:22:13.:22:16.

Welsh assembly electoral system has 40 seats elected on the same

:22:17.:22:20.

constituencies as Westminster but unlike Westminster the Welsh

:22:21.:22:24.

assembly is topped up with another 20 seats from five regional list.

:22:25.:22:29.

These are allocated by a system of PR. The big winner from this system

:22:30.:22:33.

at this election could be Ukip. Predicted to take five or more

:22:34.:22:42.

seats. 70 years down the line of a Labour government -- 17 years. Which

:22:43.:22:46.

has failed us. People now realise if they want things to change in Wales

:22:47.:22:50.

they have developed differently. A lot of the Labour voters are not

:22:51.:22:54.

really going to vote Tory, but they are willing to give their allegiance

:22:55.:22:59.

to Ukip because, of course, we've always spoken for the working class

:23:00.:23:03.

men and women of Wales. Barry Island is beautiful when the sun is shining

:23:04.:23:07.

and for the Conservatives seek, the Vale of Glamorgan, was a sunny spot

:23:08.:23:12.

at the last general election, where they hung on to it having taken it

:23:13.:23:13.

from Labour in 2010. It's a cast-iron rule. Ever since it

:23:14.:23:22.

was created whichever party has won this constituency goes on to form

:23:23.:23:28.

the government. But the rule only works for Westminster elections. For

:23:29.:23:30.

the assembly, the Conservatives have never taken Vale of Glamorgan. In

:23:31.:23:36.

fact, the rule in those elections seems to be that the Conservatives

:23:37.:23:41.

will underperform. It's all about selecting the right cuts. The labour

:23:42.:23:46.

of the Welsh Conservative thinks voters aren't always clear who is in

:23:47.:23:53.

charge of what. At any election time sometimes you get a great deal of

:23:54.:23:56.

indifference amongst the wider electorate but the assembly election

:23:57.:23:59.

is probably a harder sell again because the Welsh media is a small

:24:00.:24:04.

part of the media outlet that people go to for the daily feed. A lot of

:24:05.:24:08.

people are informed by Westminster News and often Welsh news comes

:24:09.:24:11.

second. Slowly but surely that is breaking down and people are getting

:24:12.:24:15.

a better understanding of where their health service is being run

:24:16.:24:19.

from, where the economy is run from, education. After 17 years of

:24:20.:24:24.

Labour's managed decline, people want change here in Wales. This

:24:25.:24:27.

election takes place against the backdrop of the troubles at Tata

:24:28.:24:33.

Steel. The Labour Welsh assembly government has been keen to present

:24:34.:24:36.

the ructions in Welsh steel as the fault of the Conservative government

:24:37.:24:41.

in Westminster. Carwyn Jones has been First Minister of Wales since

:24:42.:24:47.

2009. What do you say to those who suggest Wales lags behind the rest

:24:48.:24:51.

of the UK? If you look at job creation we've been hugely

:24:52.:24:54.

successful in bringing investment into Wales, unemployment figure is

:24:55.:24:59.

5%, lower than Scotland and Northern Ireland, London, on a par with

:25:00.:25:01.

England. A tremendous achievement given our history. Best GCSE results

:25:02.:25:07.

ever. We are building more schools around Wales, it's not happening in

:25:08.:25:12.

England because schools building... On health care challenges. In all

:25:13.:25:16.

health services on the UK but independent studies have shown the

:25:17.:25:19.

UK health systems are more or less the same. What we don't have is a

:25:20.:25:24.

junior doctors strike. According to latest polls, Labour support in

:25:25.:25:27.

Wales is at its lowest for six years, even so, no one is predicting

:25:28.:25:32.

they won't be the biggest party in the new assembly. The big question

:25:33.:25:38.

is, on what terms? It's clear the Welsh political landscape is

:25:39.:25:39.

shifting. If you're a Leicester fan,

:25:40.:25:42.

a football fan or just a fan those rare world-shaking sporting upsets

:25:43.:25:45.

then you'll know this weekend Leicester City FC -

:25:46.:25:47.

one of the more modest, less shouty clubs of

:25:48.:25:51.

the Premier League could well clinch An almost unfathomable

:25:52.:25:53.

turn of fortunes. At the start of the season

:25:54.:25:58.

they were 5,000-1 to win the league. If they become champions it will -

:25:59.:26:02.

in betting terms - be the greatest upset

:26:03.:26:07.

in British sporting history. You might remember Brian Clough

:26:08.:26:17.

taking Nottingham Forest from nowhere to extraordinary heights in

:26:18.:26:22.

1978-1979. The last time anything in football happen on this scale.

:26:23.:26:30.

So in this day of big money, big name, big promotion clubs how do

:26:31.:26:33.

Joining me now from Michigan is Stefan Shermanski,

:26:34.:26:37.

How unprecedented do you think this is? Does it feel like paradigms to

:26:38.:26:46.

you? It feels like something very different. Exceptional. You

:26:47.:26:50.

mentioned Brian Clough and Nottingham Forest, an extraordinary

:26:51.:26:54.

outcome. They're in mind, back then, there was far less financial gulf

:26:55.:27:00.

between the big clubs and the smaller clubs. That's what

:27:01.:27:05.

incredible. Leicester are beating teams that have spent 3-4 times as

:27:06.:27:10.

much as they have one talent. It's an extraordinary achievement. Part

:27:11.:27:16.

of the idea of Soccernomics is this sort of thing shouldn't happen,

:27:17.:27:22.

doesn't happen. Is it now recognised that it is possible. Does it change

:27:23.:27:27.

the model? Well, I think there are two things. One thing is, with all

:27:28.:27:31.

due respect to Leicester, whose achievements are wonderful, they've

:27:32.:27:36.

had a bit of luck here. They've scored relatively few goals compared

:27:37.:27:41.

to previous champions. They've really sneaked quite a number of 1-0

:27:42.:27:47.

victories, which makes them... Which makes it quite a fortunate outcome.

:27:48.:27:52.

The other thing is, big clubs have really underperformed this year. An

:27:53.:27:58.

example, typically, the team with the goal difference Leicester has

:27:59.:28:01.

this season would typically have come forth in the league in the last

:28:02.:28:05.

decade. It's a little bit of accommodation in exceptional

:28:06.:28:08.

circumstances which can always happen, of course, which is what

:28:09.:28:11.

makes sport wonderful, it's why we watch. Whether it is a change in the

:28:12.:28:15.

paradigms, I'm less sure. Not putting it down to that reburial of

:28:16.:28:19.

King Richard III which some Leicester fans think was their luck

:28:20.:28:24.

on the site? In terms of how they play, they have a smaller squad, do

:28:25.:28:27.

they play as a more concentrated unit than some of the bigger sides

:28:28.:28:32.

with all the competing egos superstars customer is it a factor?

:28:33.:28:38.

No, I honestly don't think so because if that were true we'd have

:28:39.:28:44.

seen teams doing a Leicester previous years. What is exceptional

:28:45.:28:48.

is this has come out of the blue and nothing like this has happened in

:28:49.:28:53.

decades. What is interesting is that the income inequality in the Premier

:28:54.:28:56.

League has actually been declining for the last decade or so. Mainly

:28:57.:29:02.

because of the value of overseas broadcast rights, shared equally

:29:03.:29:07.

amongst clubs. There is a trend towards inequality. It's slightly

:29:08.:29:11.

smaller teams will have more chance in future. There's a trend towards

:29:12.:29:19.

more equality, you say, now? Oh yes. That trend has been there for a

:29:20.:29:23.

number of years. The financial gap really peaked in about 2005-2006. It

:29:24.:29:31.

had been growing the previous 40 years. Now it's starting to shrink a

:29:32.:29:35.

little bit and if the trend continues, for example, I would not

:29:36.:29:40.

expect... I don't think it's that likely Leicester City will win the

:29:41.:29:43.

championship next year, but it wouldn't surprise me if another club

:29:44.:29:49.

from out of the big four work to port this off. Kretschmer could pull

:29:50.:29:55.

it off. If Leicester make it to the top, would they stick to playing as

:29:56.:30:01.

a small club or would they buy big players and change the shape of how

:30:02.:30:07.

they look now? Their history of football in England, in every

:30:08.:30:12.

country in the world, teams always try to be as big as they can

:30:13.:30:15.

possibly be. No question Leicester will try to stay on top and spend

:30:16.:30:20.

big this summer. They will make a big effort to try and sustain this.

:30:21.:30:24.

But it will be difficult. Precisely because it's such an exceptional

:30:25.:30:28.

circumstance, it'll be quite hard to sustain over time. Stefan

:30:29.:30:32.

Shermanski, thank you very much indeed. That almost it for tonight.

:30:33.:30:36.

It feels appropriate to finish with Leicester.

:30:37.:30:39.

Back to Leicester to finish, where fans today have been rallying

:30:40.:30:41.

behind their football club ahead of their historic weekend

:30:42.:30:43.

Anybody would think they're confident.

:30:44.:30:46.

# You've got me singing the blues #. # I've never felt more like running

:30:47.:31:19.

away # Why should I go cause I can't stay

:31:20.:31:26.

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