29/04/2016 Newsnight

A week of wondering where anti-Zionism becomes anti-Semitism.

Tonight, we tackle that question head on.

Ken Livingstone insists he's said nothing wrong,

Those who support him say debate about Israel is being stifled.

His critics tell us that cannot become a cover for blatant racism.

I don't know why anyone would vote for Labour in the state

I don't know why anyone would vote for Labour as long as Corbyn,

who dared to say yesterday, "Crisis, what crisis?"

The least he could do is to say, OK, there's a problem.

We ask our guests on both sides. And we'll have the latest

on Corbyn's anti-semitism action plan - published tonight.

Also tonight, the Labour fortress of Wales.

Ukip is hoping to turn some of those green valleys a new shade of purple

People now realise that if they want things to change in Wales,

And a lot of the Labour voters are not really

And once upon a time, a tiny mid-table football club hit

As the Leicester City fairytale nears its spectacular conclusion,

we ask if the club's success could change the multi-billion

There's a point, some might say, when you should step

Ken Livingstone hasn't found that point yet.

He confirmed to newspapers today he stood by his comments

about Hitler - first made 30 years ago -

and called on Labour to reinstate him.

Labour has promised to get a grip on tackling anti-Semitism,

but the questions at the heart of the row perhaps go wider

than the problems facing one political party.

Some on the left have argued that the cries of anti-Semitism have

been aimed at shutting down criticism of Israel

So tonight, we ask how far legitimate questions

about the nature of the Jewish State before it turns into

We will talk to guests on both sides in a moment.

First, Chris Cook has been examining the issue.

He began by talking to the novelist Howard Jacobson.

The word anti-Semitism. It explodes, it is so a word I don't want to us

yoorks I don't want to hear myself saying it, I haven't for years,

wanted to say anti-Semitism and they are making me say it. Wish the left

didn't make me say it. All the time. I accept and understand that the

words I used caused upset. It has been a bad week for Labour.

Suspending one MP and one unapologetic former Mayor of London.

Both are being investigated over anti-Semitic. Labour plan to get on

the front foot. The way they will do it is by setting up a rule book

setting out what is acceptable criticism of the state of Israel and

what is anti-Semitism. It straight forward but there is an area

contested. It is round Zionism, it is surround the idea of the Jewish

state itself. Lots of critics of Israel profession

to oppose Zionism. Although many of them actually seem to Popes specific

action by Israeli Governments. So, is signism what they are really

opposing? That is where all the trouble comes from. This is why the

left won't get rid of this. Sign snitch was a liberation movement.

Not a movement of oppression. It wasn't a movement of clonism. I

don't know why anybody given the history of Jews would want to be

anti-Zionist. Allowing for the fact by Zionism we are talking about the

Jews to return to their home land. Lots of questions to be asked. Lots

of cruelties involved in such a dream of liberation. There always is

with liberation dreams. This ledder of a pro Palestinian campaign reads

the word differently. Israel needs to be judged by the same laws as

everyone else. So if it means occupying and staying in occupation

in Palestine in the West bank Gaza it is wrong. Would you call yourself

anti-Zionism. I would if that is what it means. It has lots of

different views about what it mean, if it means taking away what the

world has said Palestine should have, which is a free state I am an

anti-Zionism. The point of anti-Zionism is the existence of

Israel itself, so it is anti-Semitism to oppose that? I am

prepared to say anybody who wants to remove Israel, who thinks Israel has

no right to be, and would like it not to be, I am prepared to go out

on a limb and say that anybody who says that, is an anti-is mite. Do

you think it is legitimate to call for the end of the state of Israel?

I don't. No. The Palestinian, the PLO has accepted its economies

entering it is calling for a fair and just solution, and that is what

we support and I think that is what the world is supporting and nobody,

I think believes that there is going to be any future that doesn't

include Israel within it. So where are the lines elsewhere? We asked an

deck Mick from a pro Israel organisation? Legitimate criticism

isn't just fine and acceptable, it is necessary. Every nation state

needs to be held to account and I think legitimate criticism sound

like this. The occupation is wrong, the settlement should come to an

end, the attacks upon Hamas in order to stop the rockets are

disproportionate, the Israeli Arabs suffer inequalities and we should

close the gaps more quickly. Whether you agree with it or not that is in

the bounds of legitimate criticism. But even these criticisms can tip

over into something else. If you use a discourse which is horribly

demonising of Israel, which come pairs Binyamin Netanyahu to Hitler

and the Nazi analogies which uses the old tropes and images that used

to be apply to the Jew, the stereo typical Jew, you have wandered into

the wrong area. We have it clear we don't tolerate Islamophobia, racism

or anti-Semitism. I have had to expel people from the organisation

and defend that action and win it. It is part of what we do. We think

it is wrong. And therefore we don't tolerate it. Jeremy Corbyn's problem

is Labour finds people saying things that pro Palestinians will condemn,

and so, his party finds itself in trouble.

Do you think that Jews should or could vote for Labour? Well, I don't

know why they would right this minute. I like the idea that we

should all be above petty interest, but this is petty personal interest,

but this isn't petty. I don't know why anyone would vote for Labour in

New measures from Corbyn, and you and this evening heard

from the former General Secretary of the Labour Party on this issue.

Chris, talk us through what was said.

So this evening the Labour Party announced it will have a publish a

report which is going to look into how it should deal with issue, where

it should draw the lines. The former director of Liberty will be involved

in that process, this has been accelerated in part by a procession

of concern from within the Labour Party itself, the latest is Lord

Triesman, who was in charge of the machinery, he was sort of the guy in

charge of making sure the thing won election, he says, we have a

significant problem which may drive a deep wedge between Jewish people

and the party we have traditionally supported. If the Labour doesn't

lance the boil fast, it will lose those who have a tribal loyalty. We

are at a moment of truth. Thank you very much. You can see

those words there of Lord Triesman. Let us

Joining me now is Amnon Aran, an academic of Middle Eastern

Studies at City University, and Ghada Karmi, who is a research

fellow at the Institute of Arab and Islamic Studies at Exeter.

If Jeremy Corbyn has accepted the need to make changes to the party,

does it admit, if you like the party has a problem with anti-Semitism?

Not necessarily, think that the ferocity of the attacks on Jeremy

Corbyn, on certain members of the Labour Party, accused of

anti-eSemitism and so on, has rattled the Labour leadership, I

think that is what has happened. You don't think there is anti-Semitism

in the Labour Party? There is anti-Semitism all over the place. So

there is within the Labour Party? Is that a concession, there is? There

is, and as there is in the general population as, but you see, I think

the problem is people don't look into this properly, they haven't

bothered, to examine these accusations of anti-Semitism, to see

what actually the those accused of this, in fact said, and what would

people would find is a lot of the comments were critical of Israel,

Israel's policies, and that is not anti-Semitism. I am going to bring

you in in a second, let us stick on this for one second. Naz Shah was

the MP at the centre of this, who suggested that Israel should be

moved to the United States. Would you find that statement

anti-Semitic? Absolutely not. Look, everybody knows that Israel is very

close to the US, that the US -- United States protects Israel, it

funds it, it arms it. Moving the whole state of Israel, to the US,

would not be considered anti-Semitic in your mind? No, let me explain, if

you like it is, it is a clumsy way of expressing precisely that

comment, the fact that the two are very closely knit together, and let

me say quickly, over a million Israelis live in the US, lots of

Israeli citizens have dual... I want to bring in our other guest. Foo

first there is a problem in the Labour Party as acknowledged by the

steps taken by Jeremy Corbyn. I think the statements made by Ken

Livingstone and Naz Shah have been scrutinised carefully and I think

Ken Livingstone's past actions especially for example the

celebration of somebody of ully and I think Ken Livingstone's past

actions especially for example the celebration of somebody of someone

who praise Hitler "Who put the Jews in their place" strongly suggests

there is a deeply seated anti-Semitic. The point about Naz

Shah, if one concedes or condones the idea of transferring a whole

population surely that should be applicable if was does, I don't, but

if Naz Shah would have said that or proposed that as a policy to solve

peace processes generally or zones of conflict we could have maybe

discussed that, but I am sure you for example would not have supported

the proposal to transfer Palestinians to Jordan, even though

70% of the population is Palestinian. I would not support it.

But the argument there are a million Israelis in the US and

transportations of Israeli is logical, seems a fallacy. Have to

make this clear, Naz Shah did not say transporting the Israeli people

to Israel. To United States, she is saying Israel, the state of Israel,

it is an idea, that you should maybe, it is in the same vein when

you say if you love them so much, go and Li there. Are you saying that

The Tate of Israel should not exist? I tell you what I am saying, I need

to answer you on the question of transport. I am an expert on people

backbench up rooted and transported elsewhere. I am Palestinian. I

understand. They are hundreds of thousands of Palestinians, were

properly and really transported from our home land, many of us into

refugee camps. I am wear of that. It is 23409 an idea, it wasn't a little

thing a post on Facebook, it was a reality. I know all about that. I

don't put it in the same bracket. It is that reason I can't understand

how you can condone the comments made by Naz Shah, I personally of

course would completely object, any form of transfer of any population,

Palestinian, Israeli, Jewish, or... Let me widen this out a second. Do

you have a problem with any other Government poll assistance the

region, other than Israels? Of course. There are many, many Arab

Governments, which are despotic, tyrannical, of course. But you

would, you would blame its people for that? Because the connation is

that when you talk about the state of Israel or moving the state of

Israel, you are talking about all the people that exist in it. You are

not talking about the policys of after party or a government. This

was, as I tried to explain, this was a kind of comment, I mean, a silly.

A lot of people forget Naz Shah for a moment, a lot of people are saying

the state of Israel should not exist. You know that. When they say

that, are they saying that that is the whole state, they are not

talking about Likud or net or the Government. They are talking about

the Israeli people. -- Binyamin Netanyahu. The post please don't us

let us go all over the place. The post talked about moving Israel, the

state of Israel, to the United States, in a sort of a semi jokey

way, one must be able, one must be able to say things you know. We are

going to a bigger question, the existence of the state of veil. That

respect, think the real issue is the singularing out of Israel in some of

the debate. I think if we are serious about being on the left and

being liberal, then we should apply our standards to many country,

Israel maybe included in that and I would join the criticisms of many of

the Israeli policy, the occupation is deplorable. What about the fact

that Israel in a way singles itself out. It has this policy, the right

of return, for all Jew, do you think it is conflating there, a people and

a state? I think Israel is predicated on the idea it is a

Jewish state. It has tried to be a Jewish Democratic state. There are

various elements in Israel which compromise its democratic

credentials and I dare say there are many Israelis who pointed this out

on a daily basis. This is not something new. The only point I

would make about the debate we're having here is often we find in the

debate here, in some elements in the British left, singling out of Israel

on various issues which are to do with human rights, finance,

oppression and so forth. If we're going to be serious about this, they

should be put in a broader context, not only of the region but further

beyond, then we can have a sensible debate about where Israel fits into

that spectrum. Do you think anti-Semitism would disappear if

Israel changed its borders? No, look, there are two issues here and

you keep getting stubborn, it's really not helpful. Israel as a

state violates human rights, it in breach of international law, it is

therefore to be criticised, to be corrected, to be called to account.

Would you do it to a lot of other countries in the region? We're

talking about Israel. We're talking about where Israel fits into the

context of the world in terms of criticism. Israel is among states in

the world which violate human rights and which infringe... Why haven't we

mentioned any others? We're talking about anti-Semitism, the Labour

Party, Israel, why do you want me to talk about China, Iran or whatever?

No other state is questioned about its existence in that way. We're not

talking about the existence. You are not talking about the existence, I

think you are not under knowledge that, but what we find in some of

the debate is that Israel's which do exist is questioned and the reason

we are trying to put this in broader context is to see whether some

element of the debate is fuelled by anti-Semitism. When we have someone

like Ken Livingstone, who celebrates personality such as use of good are

we... Jeremy Corbyn has been affiliated with groups who have

profound anti-Semitic credentials, I don't imply he is an anti-Semite...

He is a fellow traveller in the sense that... I'll finish this

point... If his anti-Zionism brings him to shed company with groups so

bitterly anti-Semitic and he doesn't acknowledge that, that is where that

sense of denial comes from. Do you accept sometimes the anti-Zionism

that he would acknowledge covers, if you like, that people call it

racism, anti-Semitism, when it isn't, that it stifles debate? I

think certainly in some cases perfectly legitimate criticism of

the state of Israel... There are attempts to stifle them on

anti-Semitic grounds. However, I think in this country, in the UK,

the debate on Israel, said in the criticism of Israel, is efficiently

vocal and conspicuous, which refutes any suggestion that somehow the

debate and criticism of Israel is stifled in the country, it's the

last thing one could say. I'm afraid it is, I'm afraid this whole Guha is

about deflecting attention from what Israel is doing to other people, the

Palestinians. -- this whole hoo-ha. And it's making people think about

anti-Semitism rather than the actions of the state of Israel, this

is what it's about. Next week sees one of

the most complicated set of elections around the UK -

voting for the Scottish Parliament, the Northern Ireland Assembly,

the English councils, the London Assembly -

as well as several directly elected But take particular notice

of what happens in Wales overnight on Thursday,

which could yield some of the most Ukip is hoping to gain ground

there for the first time - fielding candidates across Wales

and on the regional top For nearly a century Wales has been

the Labour Party's fortress. Today, it's the last redoubt of Labour in

government anywhere in the UK. Since the beginning of universal suffrage

in every Wales wide electoral contest are one, the party of an era

in Devon has come first. -- Aneurin Bevan. Not only that, Labour created

the devolved assembly in Cardiff and dominated its government ever since.

We live in a fickle political age. As we've seen in Scotland, tribal

political loyalties forged over decades can crumble in month.

Gretchen maths. Essential part of their message is reminding voters

how long Labour has been in charge. We've had 17 years. 17 years. 17

years of Labour's managed decline. Key to the time for a change message

is the suppose it under performance of public services in Wales compared

to the rest of the UK. Plaid Cymru want a second place they lost to the

Conservatives in the last assembly elections. Plaid Cymru had been in:

Lycian with Labour until 2011 and we had prioritised winning a referendum

to transform our national assembly into a lawmaking Parliament. I think

as a junior partner in, Lycian, in many cases throughout the world, we

took a hit for that in the following election. I think the situation is

different now, we've had 17 years of Labour leading the government in

Wales. Things could be so much better than they are. My programme

of government, my excellent team of candidates and Shadow Cabinet, are

ready now to for Wales the change Wales needs. And eight Plaid Cymru

led government. The Liberal Democrats, too, are targeting public

services. Polls suggest the party could be squeezed hard by the

electoral system that once benefited them. Perhaps falling below the

point where they will be treated as a group at all in the new assembly.

After last year's general election nobody believes polls anyway any

more. Five years ago polls said we would be wiped out, no Welsh Liberal

Democrats in the National Assembly. We've had the smallest group but the

group that has made the biggest difference. We've used influence to

create thousands more apprenticeships, ?280 million extra

into our schools. We've been able to pass a law which will see increased

numbers of nurses in hospital wards. We may be small but if achieved that

with five assembly members, imagine what we could do with more. The

Welsh assembly electoral system has 40 seats elected on the same

constituencies as Westminster but unlike Westminster the Welsh

assembly is topped up with another 20 seats from five regional list.

These are allocated by a system of PR. The big winner from this system

at this election could be Ukip. Predicted to take five or more

seats. 70 years down the line of a Labour government -- 17 years. Which

has failed us. People now realise if they want things to change in Wales

they have developed differently. A lot of the Labour voters are not

really going to vote Tory, but they are willing to give their allegiance

to Ukip because, of course, we've always spoken for the working class

men and women of Wales. Barry Island is beautiful when the sun is shining

and for the Conservatives seek, the Vale of Glamorgan, was a sunny spot

at the last general election, where they hung on to it having taken it

from Labour in 2010. It's a cast-iron rule. Ever since it

was created whichever party has won this constituency goes on to form

the government. But the rule only works for Westminster elections. For

the assembly, the Conservatives have never taken Vale of Glamorgan. In

fact, the rule in those elections seems to be that the Conservatives

will underperform. It's all about selecting the right cuts. The labour

of the Welsh Conservative thinks voters aren't always clear who is in

charge of what. At any election time sometimes you get a great deal of

indifference amongst the wider electorate but the assembly election

is probably a harder sell again because the Welsh media is a small

part of the media outlet that people go to for the daily feed. A lot of

people are informed by Westminster News and often Welsh news comes

second. Slowly but surely that is breaking down and people are getting

a better understanding of where their health service is being run

from, where the economy is run from, education. After 17 years of

Labour's managed decline, people want change here in Wales. This

election takes place against the backdrop of the troubles at Tata

Steel. The Labour Welsh assembly government has been keen to present

the ructions in Welsh steel as the fault of the Conservative government

in Westminster. Carwyn Jones has been First Minister of Wales since

2009. What do you say to those who suggest Wales lags behind the rest

of the UK? If you look at job creation we've been hugely

successful in bringing investment into Wales, unemployment figure is

5%, lower than Scotland and Northern Ireland, London, on a par with

England. A tremendous achievement given our history. Best GCSE results

ever. We are building more schools around Wales, it's not happening in

England because schools building... On health care challenges. In all

health services on the UK but independent studies have shown the

UK health systems are more or less the same. What we don't have is a

junior doctors strike. According to latest polls, Labour support in

Wales is at its lowest for six years, even so, no one is predicting

they won't be the biggest party in the new assembly. The big question

is, on what terms? It's clear the Welsh political landscape is

shifting. If you're a Leicester fan,

a football fan or just a fan those rare world-shaking sporting upsets

then you'll know this weekend Leicester City FC -

one of the more modest, less shouty clubs of

the Premier League could well clinch An almost unfathomable

turn of fortunes. At the start of the season

they were 5,000-1 to win the league. If they become champions it will -

in betting terms - be the greatest upset

in British sporting history. You might remember Brian Clough

taking Nottingham Forest from nowhere to extraordinary heights in

1978-1979. The last time anything in football happen on this scale.

So in this day of big money, big name, big promotion clubs how do

Joining me now from Michigan is Stefan Shermanski,

How unprecedented do you think this is? Does it feel like paradigms to

you? It feels like something very different. Exceptional. You

mentioned Brian Clough and Nottingham Forest, an extraordinary

outcome. They're in mind, back then, there was far less financial gulf

between the big clubs and the smaller clubs. That's what

incredible. Leicester are beating teams that have spent 3-4 times as

much as they have one talent. It's an extraordinary achievement. Part

of the idea of Soccernomics is this sort of thing shouldn't happen,

doesn't happen. Is it now recognised that it is possible. Does it change

the model? Well, I think there are two things. One thing is, with all

due respect to Leicester, whose achievements are wonderful, they've

had a bit of luck here. They've scored relatively few goals compared

to previous champions. They've really sneaked quite a number of 1-0

victories, which makes them... Which makes it quite a fortunate outcome.

The other thing is, big clubs have really underperformed this year. An

example, typically, the team with the goal difference Leicester has

this season would typically have come forth in the league in the last

decade. It's a little bit of accommodation in exceptional

circumstances which can always happen, of course, which is what

makes sport wonderful, it's why we watch. Whether it is a change in the

paradigms, I'm less sure. Not putting it down to that reburial of

King Richard III which some Leicester fans think was their luck

on the site? In terms of how they play, they have a smaller squad, do

they play as a more concentrated unit than some of the bigger sides

with all the competing egos superstars customer is it a factor?

No, I honestly don't think so because if that were true we'd have

seen teams doing a Leicester previous years. What is exceptional

is this has come out of the blue and nothing like this has happened in

decades. What is interesting is that the income inequality in the Premier

League has actually been declining for the last decade or so. Mainly

because of the value of overseas broadcast rights, shared equally

amongst clubs. There is a trend towards inequality. It's slightly

smaller teams will have more chance in future. There's a trend towards

more equality, you say, now? Oh yes. That trend has been there for a

number of years. The financial gap really peaked in about 2005-2006. It

had been growing the previous 40 years. Now it's starting to shrink a

little bit and if the trend continues, for example, I would not

expect... I don't think it's that likely Leicester City will win the

championship next year, but it wouldn't surprise me if another club

from out of the big four work to port this off. Kretschmer could pull

it off. If Leicester make it to the top, would they stick to playing as

a small club or would they buy big players and change the shape of how

they look now? Their history of football in England, in every

country in the world, teams always try to be as big as they can

possibly be. No question Leicester will try to stay on top and spend

big this summer. They will make a big effort to try and sustain this.

But it will be difficult. Precisely because it's such an exceptional

circumstance, it'll be quite hard to sustain over time. Stefan

Shermanski, thank you very much indeed. That almost it for tonight.

It feels appropriate to finish with Leicester.

Back to Leicester to finish, where fans today have been rallying

behind their football club ahead of their historic weekend

Anybody would think they're confident.

# You've got me singing the blues #. # I've never felt more like running

away # Why should I go cause I can't stay