29/04/2016 Newsnight


In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines with Emily Maitlis.

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A week of wondering where anti-Zionism becomes anti-Semitism.


Tonight, we tackle that question head on.


Ken Livingstone insists he's said nothing wrong,


Those who support him say debate about Israel is being stifled.


His critics tell us that cannot become a cover for blatant racism.


I don't know why anyone would vote for Labour in the state


I don't know why anyone would vote for Labour as long as Corbyn,


who dared to say yesterday, "Crisis, what crisis?"


The least he could do is to say, OK, there's a problem.


We ask our guests on both sides. And we'll have the latest


on Corbyn's anti-semitism action plan - published tonight.


Also tonight, the Labour fortress of Wales.


Ukip is hoping to turn some of those green valleys a new shade of purple


People now realise that if they want things to change in Wales,


And a lot of the Labour voters are not really


And once upon a time, a tiny mid-table football club hit


As the Leicester City fairytale nears its spectacular conclusion,


we ask if the club's success could change the multi-billion


There's a point, some might say, when you should step


Ken Livingstone hasn't found that point yet.


He confirmed to newspapers today he stood by his comments


about Hitler - first made 30 years ago -


and called on Labour to reinstate him.


Labour has promised to get a grip on tackling anti-Semitism,


but the questions at the heart of the row perhaps go wider


than the problems facing one political party.


Some on the left have argued that the cries of anti-Semitism have


been aimed at shutting down criticism of Israel


So tonight, we ask how far legitimate questions


about the nature of the Jewish State before it turns into


We will talk to guests on both sides in a moment.


First, Chris Cook has been examining the issue.


He began by talking to the novelist Howard Jacobson.


The word anti-Semitism. It explodes, it is so a word I don't want to us


yoorks I don't want to hear myself saying it, I haven't for years,


wanted to say anti-Semitism and they are making me say it. Wish the left


didn't make me say it. All the time. I accept and understand that the


words I used caused upset. It has been a bad week for Labour.


Suspending one MP and one unapologetic former Mayor of London.


Both are being investigated over anti-Semitic. Labour plan to get on


the front foot. The way they will do it is by setting up a rule book


setting out what is acceptable criticism of the state of Israel and


what is anti-Semitism. It straight forward but there is an area


contested. It is round Zionism, it is surround the idea of the Jewish


state itself. Lots of critics of Israel profession


to oppose Zionism. Although many of them actually seem to Popes specific


action by Israeli Governments. So, is signism what they are really


opposing? That is where all the trouble comes from. This is why the


left won't get rid of this. Sign snitch was a liberation movement.


Not a movement of oppression. It wasn't a movement of clonism. I


don't know why anybody given the history of Jews would want to be


anti-Zionist. Allowing for the fact by Zionism we are talking about the


Jews to return to their home land. Lots of questions to be asked. Lots


of cruelties involved in such a dream of liberation. There always is


with liberation dreams. This ledder of a pro Palestinian campaign reads


the word differently. Israel needs to be judged by the same laws as


everyone else. So if it means occupying and staying in occupation


in Palestine in the West bank Gaza it is wrong. Would you call yourself


anti-Zionism. I would if that is what it means. It has lots of


different views about what it mean, if it means taking away what the


world has said Palestine should have, which is a free state I am an


anti-Zionism. The point of anti-Zionism is the existence of


Israel itself, so it is anti-Semitism to oppose that? I am


prepared to say anybody who wants to remove Israel, who thinks Israel has


no right to be, and would like it not to be, I am prepared to go out


on a limb and say that anybody who says that, is an anti-is mite. Do


you think it is legitimate to call for the end of the state of Israel?


I don't. No. The Palestinian, the PLO has accepted its economies


entering it is calling for a fair and just solution, and that is what


we support and I think that is what the world is supporting and nobody,


I think believes that there is going to be any future that doesn't


include Israel within it. So where are the lines elsewhere? We asked an


deck Mick from a pro Israel organisation? Legitimate criticism


isn't just fine and acceptable, it is necessary. Every nation state


needs to be held to account and I think legitimate criticism sound


like this. The occupation is wrong, the settlement should come to an


end, the attacks upon Hamas in order to stop the rockets are


disproportionate, the Israeli Arabs suffer inequalities and we should


close the gaps more quickly. Whether you agree with it or not that is in


the bounds of legitimate criticism. But even these criticisms can tip


over into something else. If you use a discourse which is horribly


demonising of Israel, which come pairs Binyamin Netanyahu to Hitler


and the Nazi analogies which uses the old tropes and images that used


to be apply to the Jew, the stereo typical Jew, you have wandered into


the wrong area. We have it clear we don't tolerate Islamophobia, racism


or anti-Semitism. I have had to expel people from the organisation


and defend that action and win it. It is part of what we do. We think


it is wrong. And therefore we don't tolerate it. Jeremy Corbyn's problem


is Labour finds people saying things that pro Palestinians will condemn,


and so, his party finds itself in trouble.


Do you think that Jews should or could vote for Labour? Well, I don't


know why they would right this minute. I like the idea that we


should all be above petty interest, but this is petty personal interest,


but this isn't petty. I don't know why anyone would vote for Labour in


New measures from Corbyn, and you and this evening heard


from the former General Secretary of the Labour Party on this issue.


Chris, talk us through what was said.


So this evening the Labour Party announced it will have a publish a


report which is going to look into how it should deal with issue, where


it should draw the lines. The former director of Liberty will be involved


in that process, this has been accelerated in part by a procession


of concern from within the Labour Party itself, the latest is Lord


Triesman, who was in charge of the machinery, he was sort of the guy in


charge of making sure the thing won election, he says, we have a


significant problem which may drive a deep wedge between Jewish people


and the party we have traditionally supported. If the Labour doesn't


lance the boil fast, it will lose those who have a tribal loyalty. We


are at a moment of truth. Thank you very much. You can see


those words there of Lord Triesman. Let us


Joining me now is Amnon Aran, an academic of Middle Eastern


Studies at City University, and Ghada Karmi, who is a research


fellow at the Institute of Arab and Islamic Studies at Exeter.


If Jeremy Corbyn has accepted the need to make changes to the party,


does it admit, if you like the party has a problem with anti-Semitism?


Not necessarily, think that the ferocity of the attacks on Jeremy


Corbyn, on certain members of the Labour Party, accused of


anti-eSemitism and so on, has rattled the Labour leadership, I


think that is what has happened. You don't think there is anti-Semitism


in the Labour Party? There is anti-Semitism all over the place. So


there is within the Labour Party? Is that a concession, there is? There


is, and as there is in the general population as, but you see, I think


the problem is people don't look into this properly, they haven't


bothered, to examine these accusations of anti-Semitism, to see


what actually the those accused of this, in fact said, and what would


people would find is a lot of the comments were critical of Israel,


Israel's policies, and that is not anti-Semitism. I am going to bring


you in in a second, let us stick on this for one second. Naz Shah was


the MP at the centre of this, who suggested that Israel should be


moved to the United States. Would you find that statement


anti-Semitic? Absolutely not. Look, everybody knows that Israel is very


close to the US, that the US -- United States protects Israel, it


funds it, it arms it. Moving the whole state of Israel, to the US,


would not be considered anti-Semitic in your mind? No, let me explain, if


you like it is, it is a clumsy way of expressing precisely that


comment, the fact that the two are very closely knit together, and let


me say quickly, over a million Israelis live in the US, lots of


Israeli citizens have dual... I want to bring in our other guest. Foo


first there is a problem in the Labour Party as acknowledged by the


steps taken by Jeremy Corbyn. I think the statements made by Ken


Livingstone and Naz Shah have been scrutinised carefully and I think


Ken Livingstone's past actions especially for example the


celebration of somebody of ully and I think Ken Livingstone's past


actions especially for example the celebration of somebody of someone


who praise Hitler "Who put the Jews in their place" strongly suggests


there is a deeply seated anti-Semitic. The point about Naz


Shah, if one concedes or condones the idea of transferring a whole


population surely that should be applicable if was does, I don't, but


if Naz Shah would have said that or proposed that as a policy to solve


peace processes generally or zones of conflict we could have maybe


discussed that, but I am sure you for example would not have supported


the proposal to transfer Palestinians to Jordan, even though


70% of the population is Palestinian. I would not support it.


But the argument there are a million Israelis in the US and


transportations of Israeli is logical, seems a fallacy. Have to


make this clear, Naz Shah did not say transporting the Israeli people


to Israel. To United States, she is saying Israel, the state of Israel,


it is an idea, that you should maybe, it is in the same vein when


you say if you love them so much, go and Li there. Are you saying that


The Tate of Israel should not exist? I tell you what I am saying, I need


to answer you on the question of transport. I am an expert on people


backbench up rooted and transported elsewhere. I am Palestinian. I


understand. They are hundreds of thousands of Palestinians, were


properly and really transported from our home land, many of us into


refugee camps. I am wear of that. It is 23409 an idea, it wasn't a little


thing a post on Facebook, it was a reality. I know all about that. I


don't put it in the same bracket. It is that reason I can't understand


how you can condone the comments made by Naz Shah, I personally of


course would completely object, any form of transfer of any population,


Palestinian, Israeli, Jewish, or... Let me widen this out a second. Do


you have a problem with any other Government poll assistance the


region, other than Israels? Of course. There are many, many Arab


Governments, which are despotic, tyrannical, of course. But you


would, you would blame its people for that? Because the connation is


that when you talk about the state of Israel or moving the state of


Israel, you are talking about all the people that exist in it. You are


not talking about the policys of after party or a government. This


was, as I tried to explain, this was a kind of comment, I mean, a silly.


A lot of people forget Naz Shah for a moment, a lot of people are saying


the state of Israel should not exist. You know that. When they say


that, are they saying that that is the whole state, they are not


talking about Likud or net or the Government. They are talking about


the Israeli people. -- Binyamin Netanyahu. The post please don't us


let us go all over the place. The post talked about moving Israel, the


state of Israel, to the United States, in a sort of a semi jokey


way, one must be able, one must be able to say things you know. We are


going to a bigger question, the existence of the state of veil. That


respect, think the real issue is the singularing out of Israel in some of


the debate. I think if we are serious about being on the left and


being liberal, then we should apply our standards to many country,


Israel maybe included in that and I would join the criticisms of many of


the Israeli policy, the occupation is deplorable. What about the fact


that Israel in a way singles itself out. It has this policy, the right


of return, for all Jew, do you think it is conflating there, a people and


a state? I think Israel is predicated on the idea it is a


Jewish state. It has tried to be a Jewish Democratic state. There are


various elements in Israel which compromise its democratic


credentials and I dare say there are many Israelis who pointed this out


on a daily basis. This is not something new. The only point I


would make about the debate we're having here is often we find in the


debate here, in some elements in the British left, singling out of Israel


on various issues which are to do with human rights, finance,


oppression and so forth. If we're going to be serious about this, they


should be put in a broader context, not only of the region but further


beyond, then we can have a sensible debate about where Israel fits into


that spectrum. Do you think anti-Semitism would disappear if


Israel changed its borders? No, look, there are two issues here and


you keep getting stubborn, it's really not helpful. Israel as a


state violates human rights, it in breach of international law, it is


therefore to be criticised, to be corrected, to be called to account.


Would you do it to a lot of other countries in the region? We're


talking about Israel. We're talking about where Israel fits into the


context of the world in terms of criticism. Israel is among states in


the world which violate human rights and which infringe... Why haven't we


mentioned any others? We're talking about anti-Semitism, the Labour


Party, Israel, why do you want me to talk about China, Iran or whatever?


No other state is questioned about its existence in that way. We're not


talking about the existence. You are not talking about the existence, I


think you are not under knowledge that, but what we find in some of


the debate is that Israel's which do exist is questioned and the reason


we are trying to put this in broader context is to see whether some


element of the debate is fuelled by anti-Semitism. When we have someone


like Ken Livingstone, who celebrates personality such as use of good are


we... Jeremy Corbyn has been affiliated with groups who have


profound anti-Semitic credentials, I don't imply he is an anti-Semite...


He is a fellow traveller in the sense that... I'll finish this


point... If his anti-Zionism brings him to shed company with groups so


bitterly anti-Semitic and he doesn't acknowledge that, that is where that


sense of denial comes from. Do you accept sometimes the anti-Zionism


that he would acknowledge covers, if you like, that people call it


racism, anti-Semitism, when it isn't, that it stifles debate? I


think certainly in some cases perfectly legitimate criticism of


the state of Israel... There are attempts to stifle them on


anti-Semitic grounds. However, I think in this country, in the UK,


the debate on Israel, said in the criticism of Israel, is efficiently


vocal and conspicuous, which refutes any suggestion that somehow the


debate and criticism of Israel is stifled in the country, it's the


last thing one could say. I'm afraid it is, I'm afraid this whole Guha is


about deflecting attention from what Israel is doing to other people, the


Palestinians. -- this whole hoo-ha. And it's making people think about


anti-Semitism rather than the actions of the state of Israel, this


is what it's about. Next week sees one of


the most complicated set of elections around the UK -


voting for the Scottish Parliament, the Northern Ireland Assembly,


the English councils, the London Assembly -


as well as several directly elected But take particular notice


of what happens in Wales overnight on Thursday,


which could yield some of the most Ukip is hoping to gain ground


there for the first time - fielding candidates across Wales


and on the regional top For nearly a century Wales has been


the Labour Party's fortress. Today, it's the last redoubt of Labour in


government anywhere in the UK. Since the beginning of universal suffrage


in every Wales wide electoral contest are one, the party of an era


in Devon has come first. -- Aneurin Bevan. Not only that, Labour created


the devolved assembly in Cardiff and dominated its government ever since.


We live in a fickle political age. As we've seen in Scotland, tribal


political loyalties forged over decades can crumble in month.


Gretchen maths. Essential part of their message is reminding voters


how long Labour has been in charge. We've had 17 years. 17 years. 17


years of Labour's managed decline. Key to the time for a change message


is the suppose it under performance of public services in Wales compared


to the rest of the UK. Plaid Cymru want a second place they lost to the


Conservatives in the last assembly elections. Plaid Cymru had been in:


Lycian with Labour until 2011 and we had prioritised winning a referendum


to transform our national assembly into a lawmaking Parliament. I think


as a junior partner in, Lycian, in many cases throughout the world, we


took a hit for that in the following election. I think the situation is


different now, we've had 17 years of Labour leading the government in


Wales. Things could be so much better than they are. My programme


of government, my excellent team of candidates and Shadow Cabinet, are


ready now to for Wales the change Wales needs. And eight Plaid Cymru


led government. The Liberal Democrats, too, are targeting public


services. Polls suggest the party could be squeezed hard by the


electoral system that once benefited them. Perhaps falling below the


point where they will be treated as a group at all in the new assembly.


After last year's general election nobody believes polls anyway any


more. Five years ago polls said we would be wiped out, no Welsh Liberal


Democrats in the National Assembly. We've had the smallest group but the


group that has made the biggest difference. We've used influence to


create thousands more apprenticeships, ?280 million extra


into our schools. We've been able to pass a law which will see increased


numbers of nurses in hospital wards. We may be small but if achieved that


with five assembly members, imagine what we could do with more. The


Welsh assembly electoral system has 40 seats elected on the same


constituencies as Westminster but unlike Westminster the Welsh


assembly is topped up with another 20 seats from five regional list.


These are allocated by a system of PR. The big winner from this system


at this election could be Ukip. Predicted to take five or more


seats. 70 years down the line of a Labour government -- 17 years. Which


has failed us. People now realise if they want things to change in Wales


they have developed differently. A lot of the Labour voters are not


really going to vote Tory, but they are willing to give their allegiance


to Ukip because, of course, we've always spoken for the working class


men and women of Wales. Barry Island is beautiful when the sun is shining


and for the Conservatives seek, the Vale of Glamorgan, was a sunny spot


at the last general election, where they hung on to it having taken it


from Labour in 2010. It's a cast-iron rule. Ever since it


was created whichever party has won this constituency goes on to form


the government. But the rule only works for Westminster elections. For


the assembly, the Conservatives have never taken Vale of Glamorgan. In


fact, the rule in those elections seems to be that the Conservatives


will underperform. It's all about selecting the right cuts. The labour


of the Welsh Conservative thinks voters aren't always clear who is in


charge of what. At any election time sometimes you get a great deal of


indifference amongst the wider electorate but the assembly election


is probably a harder sell again because the Welsh media is a small


part of the media outlet that people go to for the daily feed. A lot of


people are informed by Westminster News and often Welsh news comes


second. Slowly but surely that is breaking down and people are getting


a better understanding of where their health service is being run


from, where the economy is run from, education. After 17 years of


Labour's managed decline, people want change here in Wales. This


election takes place against the backdrop of the troubles at Tata


Steel. The Labour Welsh assembly government has been keen to present


the ructions in Welsh steel as the fault of the Conservative government


in Westminster. Carwyn Jones has been First Minister of Wales since


2009. What do you say to those who suggest Wales lags behind the rest


of the UK? If you look at job creation we've been hugely


successful in bringing investment into Wales, unemployment figure is


5%, lower than Scotland and Northern Ireland, London, on a par with


England. A tremendous achievement given our history. Best GCSE results


ever. We are building more schools around Wales, it's not happening in


England because schools building... On health care challenges. In all


health services on the UK but independent studies have shown the


UK health systems are more or less the same. What we don't have is a


junior doctors strike. According to latest polls, Labour support in


Wales is at its lowest for six years, even so, no one is predicting


they won't be the biggest party in the new assembly. The big question


is, on what terms? It's clear the Welsh political landscape is


shifting. If you're a Leicester fan,


a football fan or just a fan those rare world-shaking sporting upsets


then you'll know this weekend Leicester City FC -


one of the more modest, less shouty clubs of


the Premier League could well clinch An almost unfathomable


turn of fortunes. At the start of the season


they were 5,000-1 to win the league. If they become champions it will -


in betting terms - be the greatest upset


in British sporting history. You might remember Brian Clough


taking Nottingham Forest from nowhere to extraordinary heights in


1978-1979. The last time anything in football happen on this scale.


So in this day of big money, big name, big promotion clubs how do


Joining me now from Michigan is Stefan Shermanski,


How unprecedented do you think this is? Does it feel like paradigms to


you? It feels like something very different. Exceptional. You


mentioned Brian Clough and Nottingham Forest, an extraordinary


outcome. They're in mind, back then, there was far less financial gulf


between the big clubs and the smaller clubs. That's what


incredible. Leicester are beating teams that have spent 3-4 times as


much as they have one talent. It's an extraordinary achievement. Part


of the idea of Soccernomics is this sort of thing shouldn't happen,


doesn't happen. Is it now recognised that it is possible. Does it change


the model? Well, I think there are two things. One thing is, with all


due respect to Leicester, whose achievements are wonderful, they've


had a bit of luck here. They've scored relatively few goals compared


to previous champions. They've really sneaked quite a number of 1-0


victories, which makes them... Which makes it quite a fortunate outcome.


The other thing is, big clubs have really underperformed this year. An


example, typically, the team with the goal difference Leicester has


this season would typically have come forth in the league in the last


decade. It's a little bit of accommodation in exceptional


circumstances which can always happen, of course, which is what


makes sport wonderful, it's why we watch. Whether it is a change in the


paradigms, I'm less sure. Not putting it down to that reburial of


King Richard III which some Leicester fans think was their luck


on the site? In terms of how they play, they have a smaller squad, do


they play as a more concentrated unit than some of the bigger sides


with all the competing egos superstars customer is it a factor?


No, I honestly don't think so because if that were true we'd have


seen teams doing a Leicester previous years. What is exceptional


is this has come out of the blue and nothing like this has happened in


decades. What is interesting is that the income inequality in the Premier


League has actually been declining for the last decade or so. Mainly


because of the value of overseas broadcast rights, shared equally


amongst clubs. There is a trend towards inequality. It's slightly


smaller teams will have more chance in future. There's a trend towards


more equality, you say, now? Oh yes. That trend has been there for a


number of years. The financial gap really peaked in about 2005-2006. It


had been growing the previous 40 years. Now it's starting to shrink a


little bit and if the trend continues, for example, I would not


expect... I don't think it's that likely Leicester City will win the


championship next year, but it wouldn't surprise me if another club


from out of the big four work to port this off. Kretschmer could pull


it off. If Leicester make it to the top, would they stick to playing as


a small club or would they buy big players and change the shape of how


they look now? Their history of football in England, in every


country in the world, teams always try to be as big as they can


possibly be. No question Leicester will try to stay on top and spend


big this summer. They will make a big effort to try and sustain this.


But it will be difficult. Precisely because it's such an exceptional


circumstance, it'll be quite hard to sustain over time. Stefan


Shermanski, thank you very much indeed. That almost it for tonight.


It feels appropriate to finish with Leicester.


Back to Leicester to finish, where fans today have been rallying


behind their football club ahead of their historic weekend


Anybody would think they're confident.


# You've got me singing the blues #. # I've never felt more like running


away # Why should I go cause I can't stay


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