28/04/2016 Newsnight


28/04/2016

In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines with Kirsty Wark. Labour's anti-semitism row erupts - the shadow cabinet responds.


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Transcript


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The Labour leader says it's business as usual.

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That was Hitler's policy when he first came into power. I think you

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have lost, Mr Livingstone. All of this is toxic.

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Bradford is the city in the eye of the Labour storm after MP

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Naz Shah was suspended over anti-Semitic tweets.

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So what does her community make of the row?

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The position she is in, it is disgusting what she said.

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Because I don't blame all Israelis and all Jews for what is going

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The Energy Minister tells us why she believes a Brexit

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The playwright Michael Morpurgo tells us why he's not so sure.

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We are not a world power as we once were.

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We are a significant country in Europe.

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Everyone seems to think that we're not in Europe.

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We're in Europe, whether we like it or not.

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You cannot move the country towards America.

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And a very special performance to mark International Jazz Day.

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"Much of the criticism about crisis in the party comes from those

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who are nervous of the strength of the Labour Party

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Those words were the Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn's considered response

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to the row over anti-semitism that led him to suspend his close friend

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Ken Livingstone from the party today after he invoked Adolf Hitler

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as an early advocate of Zionism - a remark that led to a huge face

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to face row with the Labour MP John Mann, who accused him

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But Jeremy Corbyn's "crisis, what crisis" suggests that he views

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the row over anti-semitism more as an attack on his leadership

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Here is John Swinney. All I wanted to do was get on with some

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gardening. But it was not to be. Time to apologise? Why are you being

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told to apologise? Why have you brought Adolf Hitler into it? Why is

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he a vote winner? How on earth did that happen? Earlier on the

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breakfast show, when asked about internet posts by the now suspended

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Labour MP Naz Shah... She talked about relocating Israel to America,

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she talked about what Hitler did being legal and she talked about the

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Jews rallying, not using the word is released... That was not

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anti-Semitic? It was not, whenever Hitler won the election in 1932, his

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policy was that Jews should be moved to Israel, he was supporting

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Zionism. That was the breakfast show. By 11 o'clock, who was heading

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for the studios at Westminster. On the way, who did he meet but a

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Labour comrades. John Mann, MP. You are a Nazi apologist. Rewriting

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history... By now, Sadiq Khan, the Labour candidate for his old job,

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Mayor of London, had called for his suspension. If you read Mein

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Kampf... When was that written? About 1924. That is anti-Semitic.

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And outrageous, when he wrote that back then, why bring up this

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distinction between him? This is toxic, isn't it? Journalists should

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not ask those questions if you do not want me to answer them. All I

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wanted to do was some gardening but because a journalist asked me the

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question, I answered it... Some Labour MPs would have loved it if

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you stayed and did your gardening. Do you think you should stand down

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and leave the Labour Party to get on with their election that having this

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weird argument about Adolf Hitler being a Zionist? We are above all of

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these issues... Almost lost in all of this was another comment by Ken

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Livingstone in that interview. He suggested I distinction between

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anti-Semitism and racism. I lunchtime was the news that Ken

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Livingstone was toast, or at least suspended from the party. Labour

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suspensions over accusations of anti-Semitism these days are coming

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right London buses. All at once. But Ken Livingstone is not anybody, he

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scored the Jeremy Corbyn project going way back. Here he is with Hugo

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Chavez in happier times. This afternoon, this from the leader.

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Party membership is as big as it has been in my lifetime, 400,000

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individual members, 100,000 affiliated supporters, 3 million

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affiliated trade union members. It is a very big organisation and I

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suspect that much of this criticism that you say about crisis in the

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party comes from those who are nervous about the strength of the

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Labour Party at a local level. Not everyone is convinced. Mr Corbyn

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said crisis, what crisis? And this quote comes from those who are

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nervous about the strength of the Labour Party at a local level. This

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is about anti-Semitism, the Labour Party has always stood against

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discrimination and racism and we are falling short of those principles

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and ideals. In seven days, much of Britain goes to the polls. In

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London, all addicts is happening in an extraordinary atmosphere. Labour

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has descended into a catastrophic rise over anti-Semitism. Meanwhile,

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the Conservatives are accused of stigmatising Labour's candidate,

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said it can, for being who he is. For the first time in decades, the

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politics of religion and identity are at play.

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Well, we're joined now from Leeds by Jon Trickett,

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Shadow Local Government Secretary and close friend of Jeremy Corbyn.

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Good evening. You have been a member of the party for almost 50 years,

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can you remember any time when Bob Dudley anti-Semitic remarks were

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made by Labour MPs? Know, and this is not acceptable, I was a victim

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myself of an anti-Semitic attack last year and I went to court and

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the man involved was found guilty and I was absolutely astonished.

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That that happened on the streets of Britain. And it is equally appalling

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if anybody expresses any view inside the Labour Party which has a long

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record of fighting racism and fighting anti-Semitism and we will

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continue to strongly play the argument against any form of racism.

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Let us clarify some points. One what is anti-Semitism and what is

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anti-Israel. Ken Livingstone today, is it acceptable for him to say that

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Hitler was a supporter of Zionism? I did not hear him in that interview

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but the truth is, the bits that I have seen caused me to feel very

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uncomfortable. The idea that we should somehow be going back to some

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period in the life of Hitler when he was working with the Jewish nation

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or Jewish race is ludicrous. In 2016, the problems which the nation

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is facing right now, and there is a rise of anti-Semitism in the country

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and the Labour Party will play a major leading role in fighting bad.

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Have no doubt. Let's get another remark, racism is not the same as

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anti-Semitism. Do you believe that? Anti-Semitism is racism. It is

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racist. Let us be clear about this, racism has no part at all in our

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country and in a progressive party like the Labour Party, this must

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have a role and Jeremy Corbyn did act within moments, within a couple

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of hours, after hearing those comments from Ken Livingstone,

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notwithstanding the fact they have worked together for many years. He

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was suspended and rightly so. He was slower when it came to Naz Shah. Her

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statements... Israel should be removed to the US. Is that

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anti-Semitic? It is completely unacceptable. Anti-Semitic? Of

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course it is. And let me say, Naz Shah was within three hours of that

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statement being brought to our attention, was off the job she was

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doing... She was not suspended. Hang on. She stood down within three

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hours from the job she had and asked to make an apology to the house and

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she did and was then suspended. As soon as the information was

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available to the party. Not one case has lasted more than 48 hours from

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the moment it was brought to our attention to the point at which

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action was taken. Naz Shah also said two other things... The Jews are

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rallying and she also compared Zionism to Al-Qaeda. You said she

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was removed from her position as PPS to John McDowall but during her

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first interview she was not suspended and some time longer to

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deal with Naz Shah. It took 36 hours from start to finish, everybody is

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untitled two due process. This is a member of the Labour Party who

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represents people in Bradford. Action was taken and it was tough,

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it was straightforward and it was quick and she will have a chance,

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she apologised to the house and she will have a chance to better case to

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the committee. -- put her case. This is unacceptable in the modern Labour

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Party and we will not tolerate that and as somebody who has been in

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court recently as a victim of anti-Semitic action, let me make

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this clear to everybody, I was speaking to the leadership and this

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is unacceptable behaviour, these views are not part of modern Britain

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and the modern Labour Party. Is there a problem on the left of

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politics that eight strong anti-Israeli sentiment has crossed

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into anti-Semitism is not I do not know that is the case, racism is

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normally an attribute of the right-wing, in the titles you drew

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attention to the anti-Muslim comments made by the Prime Minister.

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You sound rather complacent. Is there a strong... Anti-Semitic

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sentiment bleeding into the party? It is acceptable to have a debate

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about the actions of any Israeli government, right or wrong, but when

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this bleeds into anti-Semitism and racism, it is completely wrong and

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that should not happen and will not be tolerated in this party and I

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accept the point you are making, some people fail to make the

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distinction but in doing so, if you think they are promoting the cause

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of the Palestinians by adopting racist language, and attitudes

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towards the Israelis, they are not, they are doing damage to the cause.

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But if you have got a leader, people like Rachel Reeves, they say is

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giving a slow response and we are falling short of principles are the

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Labour Party, she says this is a growing problem and Jeremy Corbyn

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has not responded, not just in the last couple of days but to this

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problem that has been boiling away. I think boiling might be a slight

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exaggeration but there is no complicity here, each case has been

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dealt with immediately, Jeremy will make a series of announcements

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shortly about all of this and we will continue to act in the most

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vigorous way. Any sign of racism in this party will not be tolerated and

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we will continue to lead the movement against racism in our

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country. Jeremy Corbyn, it appeared to me, to not quite deflect the

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anti-Semitism ride but talking about the influx of new members to the

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party, he said that much of this criticism over anti-Semitism comes

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from people who are nervous of the strength of the party at local

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level. Do you really agree? I hope that nobody is using the acquisition

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of anti-Semitism for factional reasons. I hope nobody is doing that

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but let us be clear, whatever... But do you agree with Jeremy Corbyn that

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much of this criticism being levelled at Labour over

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anti-Semitism is in reality a criticism of the strength of the

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party at local level? It sounds like deflection? We're not going to

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tolerate any form of racism or anti-Semitism in the party and our

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actions in the last few days showed this is the case, a member of the

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running seat today has been dealt with and I hope this is the end of

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it because people need to know that we will act with great firmness and

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we will lead the anti-racist movement, as the Labour Party always

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did and always will and in my own case, my grandmother was Jewish. I

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remember the anti-Semitism she faced on the streets of Leeds. It looks

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like it has seen a resurgence. We will not put up with this. Let's be

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finally put this to you that Jeremy Corbyn is suggesting very clearly

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that the criticism of the Labour Party over anti-Semitism has got its

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roots in problems he says that people have with the strength of the

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local Labour Party. On Newsnight last night, a rabbi and Lord Levi

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were critical of the party and anti-Semitism. You really do not

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think that they are concerned over the strength of Jeremy Corbyn's

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Labour Party at local level? It is not something that occurred to me

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that they would think and not something I believe either. What I

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believe is that racism is unacceptable in our country and the

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party and we will deal with it. Thank you.

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Joining me in the studio is Labour MP Wes Streeting.

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How disturbing is all this to you? This has been a pretty dreadful day

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for the Labour Party and the latest in a string of dreadful days

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concerning anti-Semitism, whether it is as we have seen in the last

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couple of days actions by members of the parliamentary party, but plenty

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of examples also of activists and their language, many of whom predate

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the leadership of Jeremy Corbyn. When I see are leader on television

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effectively saying crisis, what crisis? I think needs to talk to

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some of my constituents who are telling me about the struggle they

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are having with voting Labour, many who have voted Labour their entire

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lives. Deeply hurtful to those who would suffer from anti-Semitism, for

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Jeremy Corbyn to say they are just concerned about the strength of the

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Labour Party? Absolutely, today we have had people from across the

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spectrum of the Labour family speaking out against this. If it is,

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as I was just saying, about the flexion, surely that is deeply

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insulting? There has been an issue with the flat-footed response of the

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Labour Party, that is when the issue was first on our radar as MP's as a

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source of serious concern, that we were not acting quickly enough. On

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the question of Ken Livingstone, the hierarchy will say he is under

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investigation, but in the modern Labour Party, after what has

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happened do you think there is a place Ken Livingstone? No, I would

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not be sorry if he did not return. In the case of Ken Livingstone he

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went out today to defend comments which Naz Shah herself did not

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defend. She expressed remorse and a determination to behave differently

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and will be judged by how she behaves in the future as well as the

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past. But Ken Livingstone went around like a political arsonist

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pouring petrol all over serious issues facing the Labour Party and

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made matters worse. I don't know what he thought he was achieving and

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he is on the ruling NEC, the body that supports to enforce the rule

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book. How can have people have confidence the party is combating

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anti-Semitism when he is behaving this way? You have said that

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activists are making anti-Semitic remarks and I know you have been

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looking for a readership on this? Absolutely, let's be clear, the

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majority of Labour Party members will be appalled by what has

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happened and it all of our responsibility to speak up to create

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an environment where Jewish people and all decent minded people are

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included. But Jeremy Corbyn has a reach across the left, parts of the

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left weather is a problem with anti-Semitism and he is a lifelong

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anti-racist so it's not just the responsibility to act, there is a

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great opportunity. Jon Trickett would say he has act quickly in the

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case of Ken Livingstone and reasonably quickly on Naz Shah, but

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what else does he have to do? Labour members of the all-party group

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against anti-Semitism offered to meet Jeremy Corbyn because I think

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there are practical things we can do in terms of the Labour Party rules

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and structures, to make a practical difference. We asked for that

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meeting and were told it is going ahead after the elections in May but

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still no date has been fixed and it reinforces the idea, and their

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comments Jeremy Mincey later in the day have further fanned the flames.

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-- the comments Jeremy Mincey later. A big problem for Labour, this is a

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damaging issue. Absolutely. We have seen leadership from the city can,

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and we should see that from the top -- from Sadiq Khan. Decent minded

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conservatives have done the same but we cannot have double standards, we

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had to show leadership in our own party and get our own house in

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order. Thank you. This row started with

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the Bradford West MP Naz Shah's social media posts suggesting Israel

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should be moved to America, for which, at first,

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Jeremy Corbyn saw no reason to suspend her - a decision

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he reversed later yesterday. Naz Shah made a fulsome apology

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to the Commons but her actions have opened a Pandora's Box

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out of which jumped - as we've discussed - Ken Livingstone

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in spectacular fashion. So what is the reaction in her home

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town, where she made Secunder Kermani spent the day

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in the city of Bradford. The pews in what is now Bradford 's

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only synagogue used to be fooled. Now it has a congregation of just

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over a dozen. But when it was in danger of closing it was the local

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Muslim community who stepped in to save it. There is even an Muslim

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only synagogue council. So far as we know... This man who fled Nattie

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Germany in the 1930s is the chair of the synagogue. -- Nattie Germany.

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Naz Shah has visited twice and he says he is confident she is not

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anti-Semitic. Had you seen people being hostile to Jews because of the

:20:18.:20:24.

row lace -- Air Race and a legend and what is happening in Palestine?

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There is some confusion but there should not be, which I have alluded

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to before, the two are separate. Sometimes they merge, but they

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should not be confused. Do you think Naz Shah was one of those people who

:20:43.:20:48.

was confusing the issues? Maybe in 2014 when she made these do Robert

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Guerrero marks but nowadays she is as entitled to criticise Israel as

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anyone else. But she's not anti-Semitic. Bradford West has one

:20:59.:21:04.

of the largest populations of British Pakistanis of any

:21:05.:21:07.

parliamentary seat and many people here the Israel Palestine conflict

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is a big issue. When George Galloway was MP he even controversially

:21:13.:21:14.

declared the city and Israel free zone. Some people think the zero

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Shah is being and thoroughly criticised and others have said she

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should have stood her ground. But these local voters we spoke to

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thought she was right to have been suspended. I at 22 at the time would

:21:35.:21:40.

not have made any comment about needing to be relocated regardless

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of how emotional I was so I think it's possible to differentiate and

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the anti-Zionist and not anti-Semitic. Boris Johnson said bad

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stuff about black people, that's not been noticed or brought up. It has

:21:57.:22:02.

been brushed aside. Maybe because she is Muslim, maybe because she is

:22:03.:22:07.

an Asian MP from Bradford. She has not helped calls herself. Do you

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think some people here think good for her, she spoke up in favour of

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the Palestinians were not many other politicians are? Yes, she spoke up

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for them which is all good, I am in favour of everyone who speaks up for

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them because they need a voice to be heard but it is the manner of how

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you speak up. Like anything in life, it is the manner of doing it, it is

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not about blowing it out, whatever comes into your head. We have told

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her comments were flagged up to the media by disgruntled local rivals

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but they have become part of a very national issue for Labour.

:22:44.:22:46.

Scotland's Parliamentary elections next week look likely to return

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another SNP majority in an electoral system that was designed to prevent

:22:49.:22:51.

single party government in the Scottish Parliament.

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And the latest Ipsos Mori poll for Scottish Television

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suggests that Labour, once unassailable, could come third

:22:59.:23:01.

behind the Conservatives in what would be their worst showing

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for more than a century, when the Labour Party

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So what are the lessons of political history in Scotland that

:23:07.:23:13.

explain massive shifts in political popularity?

:23:14.:23:16.

And if the SNP are the new establishment,

:23:17.:23:20.

Here's our political editor, David Grossman.

:23:21.:23:25.

The physical landscape of Scotland is reassuringly familiar.

:23:26.:23:28.

But in politics, it's hard to find a recognisable landmark

:23:29.:23:32.

The tectonic plates of Scottish politics have shifted.

:23:33.:23:37.

How long they have shifted for, I think for generations it

:23:38.:23:39.

George Square, Glasgow, scene of celebration,

:23:40.:23:46.

rally and protest during the independence

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Overseeing it all, the seagull-spattered statue

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of a former colossus of Scottish and British politics.

:23:54.:23:57.

His party once took 85% of the vote in Scotland, although on a very

:23:58.:24:00.

Today, like Ozymandias, the Empire has weathered to dust.

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When Gladstone was Prime Minister and, incidentally, an MP

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for a Scottish constituency, you could say without a shadow

:24:13.:24:15.

of a doubt that the Liberal Party were the political

:24:16.:24:17.

In the '90s and 2000s, Gordon Brown had rather taken

:24:18.:24:24.

on the Gladstonian role and Labour was utterly dominant.

:24:25.:24:28.

Are they the new political establishment in Scotland?

:24:29.:24:35.

That certainly is how the other parties want to portray them.

:24:36.:24:38.

There is no doubt that the SNP are the new Scottish establishment.

:24:39.:24:43.

And what is worse is that they are conservatively cautious with it.

:24:44.:24:48.

And I think that is depressing for a party that claims to be

:24:49.:24:51.

Because their only goal, ultimately, is independence,

:24:52.:24:57.

they are keeping things smooth and safe so they can get that

:24:58.:25:00.

independence and I think that is not good enough for Scotland.

:25:01.:25:02.

I want Scotland to be the best again.

:25:03.:25:04.

They should want that because they say they

:25:05.:25:06.

So what has caused these huge and, so far, lasting

:25:07.:25:13.

One theory is that voters gravitate towards whoever is seen to best

:25:14.:25:18.

express a distinctive Scottish identity.

:25:19.:25:27.

And that has taken a few forms over the years, but now, of course,

:25:28.:25:30.

the standard manifestation is that Scots are more left-wing

:25:31.:25:32.

than those in England, more egalitarian, more caring,

:25:33.:25:35.

more concerned with social justice and less interested

:25:36.:25:38.

in lining their own pockets and big business.

:25:39.:25:42.

And there are elements in truth in all of that but a lot

:25:43.:25:45.

Nevertheless, the SNP own that view of how the majority of Scots

:25:46.:25:50.

Labour used to have that and before them it was the Unionist and before

:25:51.:25:59.

And whoever captures the sense of Scottishness,

:26:00.:26:05.

that sense of self, tends to do well in political terms.

:26:06.:26:11.

This shift has had a profound impact on the other parties, too.

:26:12.:26:15.

The Scottish Conservatives were once led, in turn,

:26:16.:26:18.

by a privately educated tax lawyer and an elder

:26:19.:26:20.

In a million years, they would never have tried this.

:26:21.:26:29.

Or perhaps arranging to meet journalists in a pub at 11am,

:26:30.:26:42.

but Ruth Davidson is clearly a very different type of

:26:43.:26:44.

Not to be First Minister but to lead an effective opposition

:26:45.:26:52.

I think fundamentally they come from quite a similar

:26:53.:27:00.

ideological space, of course there is the nationalist-unionist

:27:01.:27:02.

divide, although the Labour Party seems to be going a little bit

:27:03.:27:05.

softer on the union, they have lost their

:27:06.:27:07.

But in terms of their ideology, actually it is somewhat similar.

:27:08.:27:11.

In the time I have been in the Scottish Parliament,

:27:12.:27:14.

I cannot count the number of bills and legislation that I have seen

:27:15.:27:17.

being put through and I have seen the Labour Party's attempt

:27:18.:27:20.

at opposition amount pretty much to grumbling a bit

:27:21.:27:22.

from the sidelines and then voting for it anyway.

:27:23.:27:24.

And that is not really asking people, it is not challenging

:27:25.:27:27.

or having a debate, it is not having scrutiny.

:27:28.:27:29.

And that is why the SNP have been given a bit of a free ride.

:27:30.:27:32.

Whilst the Conservatives and Liberal Democrats have

:27:33.:27:34.

had time to get used to political marginality,

:27:35.:27:37.

Labour is still showing the signs of a party in shock.

:27:38.:27:45.

Last May, a forest of 40 Labour MPs was felled, leaving

:27:46.:27:48.

Iain Murray is the only Labour MP in Scotland.

:27:49.:27:51.

Is it going to be a quick fix to get Labour back where it was,

:27:52.:27:55.

I don't think it is a quick fix, the Scottish Labour Party has had

:27:56.:27:59.

And it is not going to be fixed in one election or in six months,

:28:00.:28:05.

it is a long-term project, Kezia Dugdale has stated

:28:06.:28:07.

In fact, our manifesto is a manifesto for the long-term,

:28:08.:28:10.

it is not just looking at the elections next Thursday,

:28:11.:28:13.

it is not just looking to 2020, 2021, it is looking to where

:28:14.:28:17.

What do we need to compete in the world?

:28:18.:28:20.

Because if we don't analyse what we need to compete

:28:21.:28:23.

in the world and we don't deal with that and use the powers

:28:24.:28:26.

of the Scottish Parliament to deliver that, then we will be

:28:27.:28:29.

left behind and we cannot afford for that to happen.

:28:30.:28:31.

And where does all this leave the SNP?

:28:32.:28:33.

Despite their dominance, they still reject the title "establishment".

:28:34.:28:35.

Where we have separated ourselves out from the

:28:36.:28:42.

People believe that the establishment in the UK Parliament,

:28:43.:28:48.

for example, they have a terrible track record when it

:28:49.:28:50.

came to the expenses scandal, we saw that.

:28:51.:28:54.

When it has come to the recently released Panama Papers,

:28:55.:28:56.

we have seen how members of the establishment have been...

:28:57.:28:58.

Their friends and themselves have been involved in evading tax

:28:59.:29:01.

Up here in Scotland, if you take the Scottish Parliament

:29:02.:29:06.

as an example, and the Scottish government and the SNP,

:29:07.:29:09.

we were not embroiled in the scandal, the Panama accounts

:29:10.:29:12.

have not shown any connections because there aren't connections

:29:13.:29:14.

Nevertheless, since the General Election,

:29:15.:29:19.

two SNP MPs have lost the party whip while allegations of financial

:29:20.:29:22.

If the polls are even within a Royal mile of being accurate,

:29:23.:29:29.

the SNP looks set to continue its amazing dominance

:29:30.:29:31.

In the EU referendum arguments on the economy,

:29:32.:29:42.

the voices shouting loudest so far have been warning about the adverse

:29:43.:29:45.

impact of a Brexit - the latest being the Chancellor's

:29:46.:29:48.

insistence that leaving the EU would slow growth and do permanent

:29:49.:29:55.

But today a group of economists have produced a report -

:29:56.:29:59.

a sort of Eight Horsemen against the Apocalypse -

:30:00.:30:01.

The eight economists claim that in, in fact, the UK economy

:30:02.:30:06.

would be boosted by 4% if we were outside the EU.

:30:07.:30:08.

Their report argues we wouldn't even need a new trade agreement

:30:09.:30:13.

because 70% of our exports are traded under World Trade

:30:14.:30:15.

The eight economists say the report is designed to dispel

:30:16.:30:23.

the exaggerated claims and threats whipped up by Project Fear.

:30:24.:30:29.

They argue that the benefits of the EU single market have been

:30:30.:30:32.

greatly oversold and the downside of belonging is that you must apply

:30:33.:30:52.

all its rules and conditions throughout the whole economy.

:30:53.:30:54.

So although only 12% of our GDP is directly accounted

:30:55.:30:56.

for by exports to the EU, the 88% that is not must obey

:30:57.:30:59.

A Brexit, they say, would lead to a 2% improvement in output

:31:00.:31:04.

The economists claim that consumer prices would fall by about 8%.

:31:05.:31:08.

Their argument being that the EU is a customs union and as such it

:31:09.:31:11.

artificially inflates the prices of agricultural

:31:12.:31:13.

and manufacturing goods, which hurts UK households.

:31:14.:31:16.

They forecast that if the UK remains in the EU, GDP growth

:31:17.:31:19.

By comparison, a post-Brexit reality, they predict,

:31:20.:31:22.

The economists concede short-term uncertainty but insist that this

:31:23.:31:26.

would be outweighed by the long-term benefits of becoming

:31:27.:31:28.

Joining me now is Andrea Leadsom, who is the Minister of State

:31:29.:31:44.

at the Department of Energy and Climate Change.

:31:45.:31:46.

She didn't write today's report, but she firmly believes the UK

:31:47.:31:49.

Given all of the following wind for staying inside, presumably this is

:31:50.:32:05.

music to your ears? It is great to see an alternative view and as I

:32:06.:32:09.

have said, it is very difficult to gaze into the crystal ball even to

:32:10.:32:15.

next month, 15 years, as economists are trying, but it is important to

:32:16.:32:20.

show there is another side to this argument. We will go on to whether

:32:21.:32:25.

or not the figures mean anything but when it comes to the arguments for

:32:26.:32:30.

staying within the EU or leaving, the document suggests that no flight

:32:31.:32:38.

of global situations, but if you look at HSBC, Standard Chartered,

:32:39.:32:44.

none of them at all will give any fall for leaving. HSBC have just on

:32:45.:32:49.

their periodic review of where they should face their business and have

:32:50.:32:57.

decided to stay in London. Looking at merging with the London Stock

:32:58.:33:01.

Exchange, they know there is a referendum coming up so you have to

:33:02.:33:04.

follow the money and not just look at the rhetoric. Let us look at some

:33:05.:33:09.

figures, the document is full of productions that we would be better

:33:10.:33:17.

off if we left. He would be more competitive, GDP would grow, we

:33:18.:33:20.

would be more productive and so forth. That is one set of figures,

:33:21.:33:27.

and yet leave EU were very keen to rubbish the Chancellor when he said

:33:28.:33:35.

that if we left the EU, we would be ?4300 per head worse off. What do

:33:36.:33:41.

you think? Well, that figure, the Treasury figure, assumes that the

:33:42.:33:49.

UK, if we leave the EU, pulls up the drawbridge, does no more trade and

:33:50.:33:51.

gets a very basic trade agreement with the EU and as a result, of our

:33:52.:33:57.

failure to do any International Trade, productivity will decline and

:33:58.:34:01.

that is where you get that number from. It just does not stack up.

:34:02.:34:07.

We're in a situation where this document is stuffed full of figures

:34:08.:34:12.

saying we would be better to go and those wanting to remain give just as

:34:13.:34:17.

much. You are rubbishing the Chancellor? It is very difficult for

:34:18.:34:22.

economists to look at next month let alone in 15 years and all I would

:34:23.:34:28.

say about this, this is not a document, they are eight different

:34:29.:34:33.

essays on an aspect of leaving the EU, incredibly eminent economists

:34:34.:34:38.

with a very valid view and they think there would be a benefit

:34:39.:34:44.

economically to leaving the European Union. I am not just justify their

:34:45.:34:49.

opinion but we have to look at the big picture, how could the UK

:34:50.:34:55.

survive outside? Remain say they have the OECD, the US Treasury, the

:34:56.:35:00.

CBI, Barack Obama, stacked up against them? Well, there is a very

:35:01.:35:06.

big visitation of gaining up against the poor British voter but if you

:35:07.:35:10.

look at life from the point of view of the British voter, the British

:35:11.:35:16.

voter actually is in a situation where if you are trying to get a

:35:17.:35:21.

good school plays or a doctor 's appointment or onto housing ladder,

:35:22.:35:25.

there is an overwhelming and uncontrollable goblin of too many

:35:26.:35:28.

people which is a direct result of being in the EU. This is about

:35:29.:35:34.

immigration as well? It is about a number of factors but I am talking

:35:35.:35:41.

about the fact that international institutions and other politicians

:35:42.:35:44.

do not have skin in this game, those who do are the British public, who

:35:45.:35:49.

will be voting. In terms of productivity and GDP growth, what

:35:50.:35:55.

these economists say is that if we were outside the EU, we would not

:35:56.:36:00.

have the free movement of EU citizens and we could cherry pick

:36:01.:36:04.

the cream of the immigrants who wanted to come. The same number of

:36:05.:36:10.

immigrants, but it would give us a broader range of abilities. Do you

:36:11.:36:15.

agree? I think immigration is a good thing up to a point but the problem

:36:16.:36:19.

we have is when it is uncontrolled and puts enormous pressure on UK

:36:20.:36:23.

public services then it is a problem. The other impact, is to put

:36:24.:36:31.

wages down for British workers and therein lies the problem, a certain

:36:32.:36:35.

amount of immigration is good but those immigrants need to be people

:36:36.:36:38.

who can contribute to this economy. By and large, the immigration within

:36:39.:36:44.

the European Union has been good for the country because they come and

:36:45.:36:47.

want to work very hard. The report from the Bank of England last year

:36:48.:36:52.

said that the wave of new people coming into the country has put down

:36:53.:36:57.

wages for the lower paid. Do you think that Britain should come out

:36:58.:37:02.

of the single market? I certainly think that Britain has the most

:37:03.:37:05.

amazing future ahead of us if we leave. We're not a tiny country, by

:37:06.:37:10.

the world's fifth biggest economy with the best contract law in the

:37:11.:37:14.

world, part of the Commonwealth of 2.5 billion consumers and we have

:37:15.:37:18.

the least corrupt judicial system in the world and some of the best

:37:19.:37:22.

universities... Should become the single market? Almost certainly that

:37:23.:37:27.

would be the case. Not like Norway and Switzerland? Norway has a

:37:28.:37:32.

publishing of 6 million people and is largely goods traded and Iceland,

:37:33.:37:38.

they have a proposition of 300,000, very good than Northampton. We would

:37:39.:37:47.

operate on WTO rules? We would have a UK solution and there will be

:37:48.:37:50.

something that is discussed once we get to the other side. Barack Obama

:37:51.:37:56.

says we would be at the end of the queue for any kind of trade deal

:37:57.:38:00.

were not having to deal with 500 million? Even the day after,

:38:01.:38:06.

officials from the US Department had said there is no such thing as any

:38:07.:38:10.

queue for international trade deals and anyway, the US does not have

:38:11.:38:15.

many of them on the go and let us not forget that we have been in the

:38:16.:38:19.

EU for 43 years, we are the biggest foreign direct investor for the US

:38:20.:38:24.

and restore free trade agreement with the USA Today and there is no

:38:25.:38:29.

reason to think if we did not keep one would not be perfectly in line

:38:30.:38:35.

with countries like a man. If you do not leave that we need to operate

:38:36.:38:40.

under WTO rules, you don't actually have any blueprint in how we could

:38:41.:38:46.

deal with International Trade? We would have a British option, we

:38:47.:38:49.

would immediately go from being a member of the EU to being the

:38:50.:38:55.

biggest trading partner, it would be absolutely in their interests and

:38:56.:38:58.

our own interests and we have been aligning our rules with their heirs

:38:59.:39:02.

for 43 years, it would be very easy to negotiate, offensive free-trade.

:39:03.:39:05.

Thank you very much indeed. In the run-up to the EU referendum,

:39:06.:39:08.

Newsnight is inviting a number of public figures in the UK to tell

:39:09.:39:11.

us their thoughts on the EU, whether they are passionate

:39:12.:39:15.

advocates for Remain Tonight, the author and playwright,

:39:16.:39:16.

and the man who wrote I think what we are in the process

:39:17.:39:20.

of doing is finding a new place for ourselves in the world

:39:21.:39:36.

and we have not quite found it. Europe has been, if you like,

:39:37.:39:40.

our resting place for some time now But we are, I think, as a people,

:39:41.:39:43.

uncomfortable being one We are not a world

:39:44.:39:50.

power as we once were. We are a significant

:39:51.:39:58.

country in Europe. Everyone seems to think that

:39:59.:40:01.

we're not in Europe. There is the Channel between us

:40:02.:40:05.

but we are in Europe, We cannot move the country towards

:40:06.:40:07.

America. But in a way, we are,

:40:08.:40:10.

to some extent, going back I think it has been

:40:11.:40:14.

disappointing, the re-negotiation. Not necessarily because of

:40:15.:40:27.

what David Cameron has or has not But because of the kind

:40:28.:40:31.

of threat that it came with. It seems to me that when you go

:40:32.:40:38.

into discussions with friends, you don't begin it by saying,

:40:39.:40:40.

if I don't get what I want out of this discussion, I am leaving,

:40:41.:40:46.

and I'll through my toys out We don't need to talk

:40:47.:40:48.

to our friends that way. The creation of fear

:40:49.:40:56.

and the uncertainty of it is being whipped up by one side

:40:57.:41:02.

and by the other. And it seems to me that they're

:41:03.:41:06.

missing the point I tend to be the kind of person

:41:07.:41:08.

who listens to one side of it And then I hear the other side

:41:09.:41:14.

and I think that's right. But they don't know any more

:41:15.:41:18.

than I do. And I do know my history,

:41:19.:41:21.

I do know we have been at peace for all these years and that has

:41:22.:41:25.

something to do with the EU. This is not a club that I think

:41:26.:41:28.

we should leave without thinking That's just about

:41:29.:41:31.

all from us tonight. But we've just enough time for some

:41:32.:41:41.

music in celebration The all-star Human Revolution

:41:42.:41:44.

Orchestra will be performing An Ode to the Human Spirit

:41:45.:41:47.

at London's Shaw Theatre on Saturday The acclaimed jazz guitarist

:41:48.:41:50.

Hugh Burns is here to give us We are days away from the start of

:41:51.:43:21.

me but this spring weather will continue. Low pressure bringing

:43:22.:43:25.

further outbreaks of rain, sleet and hill snow to the northern half of

:43:26.:43:29.

the country in particular and Northern Ireland getting

:43:30.:43:30.

In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines with Kirsty Wark. Labour's anti-semitism row erupts - the shadow cabinet responds. Would Brexit hit the UK economy? Plus author Michael Morpurgo and live jazz.


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